 Although Jefferson and older Republican at heart tried to establish his empire of liberty the corrupting nature of power ensured the survival of federalist cronyism Patrick Newman Joining me on this episode of liberty versus power is the man himself Patrick Newman and We're still going through cronyism Liberty versus power in America 1607 1849 and we are now going into You know our last episode we just saw the triumphs of the Republicans of Thomas Jefferson and they now have the the reigns of the ship Which brings in a new cast of characters some of which we've touched on in the past But I think this is interesting right? This is a peaceful transfer of power from one political party to another And really again, we're seeing a ideological shift here a rejection of the public to the attempt to kind of Cultivate old european style governance in the the new republic and and you know a desire for something fresh Can you just kind of help set the stage here? Um, you know with with what was Jefferson heriting when he took the office in 18? Oh, yeah, so it's it's important to understand that Jefferson In his what is Jeff what Jefferson the republican party really was it was sort of this? combination of The old anti federalists who still wanted to participate in the government in in in government in government But they didn't know exactly how to do so Radical moderates, so these are these limited government advocates who ended up supporting the constitution during the ratification debates thomas jefferson is a Was a notable example In some disgruntled ex federalists led by james madison who just weren't happy that the federalists weren't exacting Enacting excuse me their preferred a form of cronyism So jefferson is really the the the standard bearer of this new party The republican party it's designed to fight the federalist cronyism stop Hamiltonian big government spending central banking terror of subsidies the growing militarism etc in And then the federalist party did not to cut you off there But it's a point also to because emphasize the degree to which this entrenched federalist party Was fighting kicking and screaming? against this how do you touch on there's a A proposed quasi coup dear the adams administration years right like where we're Hamilton's trying to inspire to kind of let To use the the the force of the administrative state to override A democratic whims you have attempts to to Take over the election system and states are hostile to the federalists right? I mean this is a regime that is is trying to do everything they can to to stop this coalition of variety of of interests Opposing their their claim to right right no they yeah, this is something I talked about a lot in chapter six is that This is one of the reasons I Mentioned I think at the beginning when we were doing this We were starting this this podcast You know talking about my overall book is I call it cronyism And not just crony capitalism because there is a lot of political cronyism where politicians are looking to sort of hurt their competitors People who are also running for elections etc who could take away votes and reduce power by supporting all sorts of policies That that are benefiting themselves and the federalists We're we're we're we're going down fighting. They were not going to just simply You know let the republicans run roughshod over them Nor would they were did they really want them to Win the election they were going to take a lot of things that sometimes bordered on You know does this blatant illegal nature Hamilton At one point after the new york elections around this time had swung to the republicans So the republicans would be able to according to new york law the state legislatures would be able to choose the electors basically ensuring that the new york delegation would go for the The republicans Hamilton wanted john j to call a special session of of of the legislature in order to basically retroactively change the rules And this is something john j He didn't even respond. It was it was too much for him who was who was pretty much a reactionary And most people are we would agree even Even big hamiltonians would say that was probably not his best moment so to speak when he's sort of blatantly engaging in like chicanery You know to to to to keep the election going for the federalists. You also have to understand 1800 and really 1801 when the republics come to power that was the first true peaceful transfer of power between political parties like in in history It was really the most you know in modern history the The did them, you know This is something that had not happened before because what often happened is that when push comes to shove with an election the existing party in power Uh, it was just as all right. We're just going to stay in power like tough We got the guns like there's nothing you can do about it and this could have been a very bad Left turn for the united states where the federalists blatantly hold on to power or something It got very close to that but they did not Jefferson he He's he's elected the electoral college well He it was it was basically congress at this point He has chosen president And he he ushers in what was seen to be a jeffersonian revolution The the government is going to go back sort of closer to the articles confederation There's going to be this big push towards decentralization. It's just a new time This is best seen in the fact that this is now The capital moves from philadelphia this hustling bustling metropolis to this sleepy backwater the federal city that there's really not much going on there and It jefferson's inauguration seems to go pretty well and well This is now going to be this time for the limited government et cetera the anti-federalists who Excuse me the the former anti-federalists who wanted jefferson to return to the articles They were known as the old republicans. They had high expectations high hopes for jefferson Unfortunately, their hopes Became quickly dashed Well, and you highlight kind of jefferson has his immediate pivot towards moderation And this becomes very key with uh several the appointments He makes at different positions not only in within his own cabinet, but in foreign policy positions when people Like uh, you know families like levison and and peck a peckney that benefited from some of these corrupt deals that we mentioned last episode Um, you know, so he's immediately trying to to build on this sort of broad coalition Which you know with with a few exceptions the the old republicans kind of get the the shaft here Though there is one big exception to this Um, which is albert gallatin who we mentioned last episode for being a pennsylvania leader Prior to the the uprising with the the whiskey rebellion there but gallatin and in many ways is Not with the the same sort of of degree of influence Necessarily as a hamilton but kind of it is hamilton's treasurer is as hamilton's uh, sorry, is jefferson's Uh treasurer is his his kind of right-hand man a lot of the economic issues Uh dealing with again a lot of his cronious policies that he's trying to reverse. Yes So what happens is the republican so one of the main Parts of my book that this liberty versus power Theory, you know, this is that cronyism is explained by the the battle between the forces of liberty and power So according to theory that when power is in control of the government So just hamilton and the federalists etc cronyism goes up and we see this very clearly in the 1790s Uh, they're able to pass federalists are able to pass various crony policies related to finances related to military etc and then The forces of liberty win in the revolution of 1800 jefferson and the republican party They take control and so you would expect cronism to decline now that you have People who are supportive of big government. They are against cronies of being controlled the government Unfortunately as the liberty versus power theory teaches us that this is only partially true Especially really just initially and this is because power corrupts. So when you're in control of the government, you now have Power right in the government. And so that power the ability to pass government intervention Corrupts or increases the tendency of the libertarian politicians to pursue their own forms of cronies, right? And so they start to moderate They say well what we said in the campaign was we wanted to totally get rid of the bank of the united states Well, we don't actually mean that we just want to maybe downsize our involvement in a little bit Or just put the right people in charge. Oh when we said we were going to get rid of the judiciary act of 1801 Well, we didn't really mean that maybe we just wanted to ensure some good republican judges are in there So on and so forth, right? And this is because the forces of liberty. They got to look ahead to the next election They want to expand their coalition, etc Jefferson was particularly susceptible to the last issue Jefferson was sort of the quintessential moderate He was great in rhetoric and great in ideology If you got him to write something and he wrote plenty of hardcore documents in the 1780s in the 1790s, right? And of course the Declaration of Independence I mean, he was fantastic when he was in charge of governing things. He did not always Follow through and so Jefferson He wanted to bring federalists into the party. He just wanted to have one party Keep everyone happy this big republican party. It would be great. And so he wanted to bring federalists into the fold He wanted everyone to shake, you know shake hands and and and hug and etc And then well, just with the right people in charge the constitution and Congress and the presidency, etc. It could have a relatively You know limited government Perspective but Jefferson he does moderate early on he doesn't really appoint many old republicans through relevant positions The only one is Albert Gallatin who in many ways was a moderate in other in other areas And instead he goes with the the ex-federalist and this is best seen in the fact that his secretary of state is the most notorious ex-federalist And that's james madison and I think it's interesting because you know in contrast, however You know as Hamilton as as jefferson is not necessarily doing sort of like the full drain to swamp, right? He only removes I think you know, I think a fourth of a lot of the federalists appointees and things like that You know one of the first big battles is Over the federalist refusing to leave, right? It's over the judiciary. It's over last second midnight appointments and things like that and and you mentioned this is The the degree to which the federalists cling to power almost it even insults Jeffers like it's almost a a counterproductive measure there just how over the top they try to do to maintain their power but one of the early Problems though and I think this this is just something that hits, you know throughout your your chapters here on on the on jefferson Is that it again not going far enough? The republicans are able to repeal the judiciary act of 1801 Which is kind of a saving great, you know gets rid of some of the most vulgar judicial appointments But they do not get it rid of the 1789 judicial act And so again what you have effectively created is that while hamiltonians have been removed from office Uh in the legislature and in the white house We now have the thern reign of government Uh, which is the judicial system that is flexing its muscles It is imposing itself on this new old republican ish regime And here you have the federalist power maintaining to have relevancy through the the supreme court of john marshal Who who yes has the famous quote that compared to hamilton. He has a mere a candle beside the sun at noonday He is very much Uh driven by restoring the sort of Hamiltonian view of government And here you have a jeffersonia administration That seems for almost the get-go on top of their own direct appointees in the administration itself Um is is weak to start off with It does not make the necessary victories needed on the judicial front That that ends up playing a major role and not only issues for for jefferson down the road But really kind of cements Uh a a a political system that we're still dealing with the ramifications now with the degree to which courts have so much more power Than any other office out there in many many ways Yeah, absolutely. You made fantastic points and this is something that really goes. Um, I don't think it's it's a properly appreciated But the jiu-jitsu a lot of cronyism in united states history It was basically protected or even caused by the judiciary The judiciary is not a minor partner in cronyism, right? It in many ways Uh reinforces it strengthens cronyism of various laws It empowers The executive and congress to do certain things etc. And this is why so many anti federalists Both when the act was passed and even subsequently they were against the judiciary act of 1789 Which really created the supreme court and the system of um inferior courts A lot of people might not necessarily know this but there's nothing in the constitution that says You know that that describes the supreme court really in any sort of detail per se It just says congress has the ability to create a court much like there's nothing in the constitution that says The president, you know, the the president has um you can have these executive cabinets of x y and z It just says the the president has the power to appoint the heads of executive cabinets that congress creates It's sort of vague and it's wrapped up You know, it's wrapped up in in in there It's it takes time to unwind sort of like I guess an accordion might be a good a good way of describing this so The federalists after the election of 1800 they lose the executive they lose the legislator, but they still have to do judiciary Adams had appointed um John marshall to be chief justice who is john marshall a lot of people don't really know this but this is one of These interesting facts that I think is extremely important is that john marshall's younger brother James marshall had married the daughter of robert morris one of the wealthiest men at the time Huge land speculator. John marshall had worked with robert morris on various land deals So on and so forth in like a lot of biographies They just sort of like casually mention this is the as if it's not important when I read this i'm like Wait a second. That's this is huge. This is like Spent a lot more time talking about this and less about you know other sorts of early You know, but you know random facts from his early life a etc And so john marshall starts to engage in what's known as judicial review Which is that the supreme court will start to review um the constitutionality or the uncut constitutionality of various legislation And he's doing this to basically protect Prior federalist cronyism a lot of federalists were afraid that now that the republicans control They were going to repeal the bank of the united states. They were going to maybe default or even repudiate part of the national debt Uh, you know downsize the military repeal various laws like the judiciary act of 1801 So on and so forth in that john marshall now wants to use the supreme court as kind of like a sniping tower So he could strike down could stop all of these Uh reform movements dead in its track by basically saying oh you can't do that. That's unconstitutional and it's really you you you mentioned this I think it's important It's a great way It's a great example of how the swamp so to speak kind of like defense It's sort of like a turtle, you know the turtle goes in the shell and then it's like this rock You know, it's this impenetrable edifice right because then the the judiciary they sort of act and and and and they they they try to prevent the republicans from from weakening the government, but They they they they extended their their their reach too much and they were the republicans were able to repeal the judiciary act of 1801 Unfortunately, they didn't go farther as you mentioned by repealing the judiciary act of 1789 Or really jeffson even really appointing hardcore strict constructionists to the supreme court And that really just kind of sets the stage for later Examples of moderation and failure because you're you're only getting rid of some of the government So then the next time the government's going to increase further and cronyism will follow through and and then you know You're now you're you're five steps back as opposed to two steps back so the judiciary not taking the judiciary head on and this is something that Uh happened during jefferson's years as well as later years This is a really big problem that impacted the future of special interest legislation in the united states And and with one defense of jefferson on this point He there there is some attempt to do to do some of this. Um, there's an impeachment trial over samuel chase who is the supreme court justice um, I know some divisions there between jefferson and burr end up Causing some schisms there that ends up leading to burr leaving the Uh Administration in the second term But there is an attempt to at least try to impeach some justices just that that measure fails And then jefferson kind of responds to it by just continuing to pivot in the middle. Oh, absolutely And this is the the impeachment is it's sort of an ingenious way of dealing with the problem Uh, we're basically well, we can't get rid of we we can't just get rid of these because you know the the these judges Uh, so we're going to indirectly try and do so by impeaching them At least trying to exercise the rotation in office through this way because they're choosing that to do it through more direct ways But it it it there there's resistance to this it it only Goes so far and then so the whole thing just kind of dies in its tracks and that john marshall is is sort of uh scots He's protected in the supreme court And this is a this is a big issue ross bard had mentioned this that a big problem the supreme court Is it's an elite group of people who have lifetime tenure and they're very insulated From political control. So they're insulated from rotation and this is just It it it really does affect the the the future of the supreme court because the supreme court early on During the years of john marshall. It wasn't really used so much in the 17 90s This is because hamilton was always there to provide some sort of constitutional guidance In cases had to be actually heard in the the system of lower courts before the supreme court could hear them etc But the supreme court under the marshall era Took basically a very big government pro cronyism stance and this this was really Cataclysmic for the the the future of reform Okay, so moving away from the the weaknesses and some of the appointees and the supreme court measurements Um, let's go to where it's kind of kind of the good stuff here and and that is you know, even though not necessarily a strongest top-to-bottom Albert gallatin as treasury secretary He is assisted with other old republicans such as john randolph and a nathaniel makin who I believe jefferson called the last of the romans kind of just referring to this very True republican virtue aspect of public service Um, gallatin is again the the republican sort of of of you know, opposition of the hamiltonian Uh, uh framework. He has his own he writes a sketch of the finances of the united states, which is kind of a very, uh In-depth dive into public, you know public economy from an old republican standpoint they're they're the focus on repealing internal taxes on cutting spending on You know, not necessarily the outright abolition of the bank of the united states, but changes here There are some very significant policy gains made from This perspective influenced by adam smith Within the mold of the secretary albert gallatin. Yeah, absolutely. And so However much I criticized the jefferson administration. I call it failed a lot of that criticism is especially especially relates to the The second administration the first administration there were some crucial moderations the libera louisiana purchase had a lot of problems Um overall though, I mean he was fairly successful, you know libertarians, you know beggars can't be choosers so to speak So, you know when there are being steps used to reduce the size of the government to cut down taxes the cut military spending etc I mean that that's very good. So the jeff the first administration overall my book You know get gets gets about an a Gallatin was the one bright spot You know in jefferson's cabinet, right? He was the secretary of the treasury. I don't agree with everything he did He was pro bank of the united states Which led to some issues, but he was very frugal He was very influenced by adam smith So he he he was appreciative of free markets He was against sort of hamiltonian mercantilism etc and Through uh, yeah through the individuals you've mentioned guys like john randolph and uh, nathan, you'll make it in congress They were able to reform the government in certain respects get rid of the the whiskey tax Right, which led to a huge decline in the number of treasury officials in the government So it was sort of a quasi permanent reform. They were able to downsize Parts of the military. Okay, there were some issues with the navy and that had to deal with the barberry pirates But gallatin wasn't behind that that was jefferson's fault They did continue to sell off stock in the the government's ownership of the bank of the united states Which sort of privatized the institution a little bit. Uh, these are all important reforms They deserve to be mentioned and really the main credit for them should go to albert gallatin as as you discussed Yeah, just some figures here, um, that you mentioned You know when they take over in 1800 internal taxes make up about seven percent of government revenue by the time that we're looking at that second administration in 1804 They make up less than one The bureaucracy in 1801 is larger than it is in 1826 By several hundred staffers. So again, there really is this significant You know that there is there is the swamp is drained to a certain extent And I think this is interesting. Is all you know within some of the intellectual conversations particularly on the right right now there is a Holding up and champion of hamilton as sort of the embodiment of the early american greatness And but but yet if you recognize just how kind of how you know It went on too long right from our perspective, right? But you know, it was three administrations and hamiltoni or three three terms and the hamilton policies were so unpopular So destabilizing that we had this people's revolution in 1800. It really is If you're looking for a common good political economy, right it the focus on Reducing public corruption and the impact that these these state privileges have not simply on sort of You know Spreadsheet sort of numb, you know, that's just some of that like the cost of of corruption here and there But genuinely the the impact of this You know of a small government economic system on the virtue of their society I think is something where again like the the the gallatin system The impact here that the successes of this first Jefferson administration if we are looking at, you know, what is the core of economic american exceptionalism from a Political economic lens. I think these are the years that we should be looking upon Again, you're touching on is some of these accomplishments that we very we did see play out. Yeah, absolutely And the those are all very important issues. I think they are related to When I mentioned that jefferson, it's it's it'd be remiss to it's to neglect his Empire of liberty concept. This is something I refer to in my own and I for I refer to in cronyism And it's very important because which jefferson wanted sort of his ideal society is that well the you the the landmass of north america Would be governed by These the system of sort of these decentralized confederacies He thought the pacific coast would be a totally separate government He wasn't really concerned if there was one government, you know, or just multiple confederacies and they'd be linked Sort of by common cultural norms and language, etc. So you would have sort of this system of limited government English societies that were insulated from all the problems of the old Order in europe be from the atlantic ocean And of course, that's not like an anarcho capitalist society, but I'd like to live in that that'd be pretty cool I'll take that any day of the week and You know, he wasn't able to get there, but this is something that really animated a lot of republicans at this time was this is Hey, um You know, let's create the you know, we want to return To this system of limited government. We don't want this massive empire. That's going to lead you a lot of problems And I think it's a very important remark It's entirely justified because a lot of times especially When we're looking back at american history We sort of think that it's pre-ordained That the united states had to become the size that it was supposed to be that we just have in our mind All right, we've got the continental united states from the atlantic to the pacific and then there's this weird ice box Known as alaska and there's a little island in hawai It's like any sort of deviation from that would be like this terrible calamity that You know must be stopped at you know at all costs and reality The modern united states only came about through a series of very unique Circumstances a lot of it related to cronism and conquest in that The modern united states turned into the empire of power not the empire of liberty Jefferson had longed for Uh before he became president Well, and this guy kind of I think we're got touched on with our next episode on sort of the uh The fall of the jeffersonian revolution, but it is interesting I mean one of the attempts made to create a a a Parallel republic What was from uh erin burr? jefferson's first vice presidential Vice president who tries to Motivate american troops And military members including injue jackson a few others to to move against spanish controlled new orleans And take over prior to the louisiana Around the same time of louisiana purchase. So it is interesting jefferson in theory versus jefferson practice not always on the same page Unfortunately, I think in particularly in ways that we're going to dive into further on the next episode Um, but but since we're this this all kind of has a little bit of a defense aspect in it as well Just one other point about gallatin that you you highlight that I think is really interesting Is that a greed of which he also had an understanding of the military industrial complex Yeah, in an early sense, um where he he warns about the the way which defense spending creates a vested interest group Uh and and obviously when we're seeing a rise You know, we have uh, not only at the end of the adams administration Do we have the tensions between france and england? But as you mentioned briefly earlier, um, you have the barbary pile of pirates hassling american ships Fueling a military response, which you highlight navy secretary robert smith who had a background in the shipping industry in particular may have had a role and and really fattening the the physical response to The the the triple a war and perhaps an example right there in practice of gallatin's concerns about vested interest groups in foreign policy Yeah, absolutely So there was this issue with the the barbary pirates and this is a lot of mainstream historians They say well, this is our the united states had to show its its supremacy on the on on on the world stage You had these clear what might be considered terrorists nowadays Um, or at least of like 10 years ago. They were Kidnapping american pirate american sailors, etc. This is in north africa. This had to be stopped. So, you know, we had to send You know the the navy and in doing so this is our first war We showed that we were a government to be respected with and you know, yeah You got to do all that stuff and well a lot of people they forget that they don't talk about that how people like john adams Uh mentioned that actually they were looking for tribute In that while this tribute may or may not have been just, uh, I mean it was it was unjust. They were basically looking for taxes Um, the the barbary pirates is that it was going to cost less to pay them than to go fight them Right. So from the visit from the fiscal side, it's just well, let's just let's just pay them off basically in that Yeah, you know instead of fighting them, uh, you know that that that was probably the the the the proper response to to do You know to do but jefferson didn't want to do that He wanted he was he was against the barbary pirates from the 1780s An additional thing and this is something I talk about in my book is that he wanted to bring Discruntled federalists into the republican party and what better way of doing that than pleasing Uh, the various naval interests who at the time were basically located in new england And in shipping centers like baltimore and they were overwhelmingly federalist and you look at jefferson's various appointments related to the the trapoly war etc And this is uh, yeah, it's a clear instance of this and that he's supporting this law I mean he's supporting this war partially as a way of pleasing the federalists And of course when you look at america's wars as I do throughout this book and as well as many other scholars have done There's a lot of cronyism that goes into wars that goes into the financing of the wars that goes into Who's going to be the contractors for said war so on and so forth and that this is clear And that there were various vested naval mercantile interests that were benefiting from this This is uh, albert gallatin was against it John randolph was against it. Both of them were against the war. Unfortunately. They couldn't persuade jefferson to back off of sort of His bellicose demands another area where you know if we're looking at uh, I can Battles against cronyism um While again and we mentioned earlier that gallatin has a bit of a soft spot for uh, the bank of the united states Can you touch on a little bit about his specific defenses? Because you know That there was a sort of a narrative out there that if if I understand correctly the bank of the united states sort of played a role in checking excess Uh, paper currency coming out of state chartered banks, right? And so there was sort of a argument That a bank of the united states was was genuinely necessary for helping preserve sound money Rather than inflationist policies Uh, can you touch on that defense before we get into some of the the interesting political backgrounds? There's a lot of fun stuff that's here in the the partisanship of the financial sector Gallatin's own sort of arguments in favor of a federal bank. Yeah, so the gallatin basically Although he was an old republican. He was not as Anti-central banking as other old republicans such as uh, john taylor, etc And that john he was he was he says he's a swiss at heart So he's gotta he's definitely got a little bit of a soft spot for exactly exactly banking. He's not he's not uh He's not he's not full american. I guess, you know, he's got he's got the elements of of europe in him And so he's got the banking that the swiss uh, the swiss bank genes are in him Is that gallatin basically argued that well And this is this is kind of an issue where charter goes a little bit of the flip-flopping because previously gallatin had criticized the bank of the united states lending practices He now he argued that well the bank is actually useful because it can make loans through congress when it was in trouble and the bank's branches Um allowed the government to easily transfer money across the country and and and so on and and that It was it was basically that well in the right hands The central bank could be used the bank of the united states could be used for the benefit of jefferson and the republican party And so jefferson basically sided with the the this argument, right? He said that okay, it this is this is this is okay We'll keep the bank This is a real shock for a lot of jeffersonians such as john randolph and john taylor because jefferson's one of his favorite Things to do was to criticize the bank in the 1790. So this is uh admittedly a Uh stain on gallatin's a great record That he he he thought the bank of the united states could be very useful to the government Um this you know transferring money and making loans to it and that this by by not getting rid of the bank What jefferson basically did is he said the bank was constitutional? Okay, and then that weakened The the the various roadblocks to expansions of government power So not getting rid of the bank during jefferson's Presidency was a big issue. Okay, and they had a long standing ramifications But he does still kind of have this, you know If he uses the words I think that it talks about weakening that a powerful enemy Which sounds very jacksonian and kind of a later later date Um kind of a view of the bank itself But you know while they they do not Abolish the bank they they do do some important things from a kind of the reform sort of standpoint Um as you mentioned earlier, they sold all the all the federal stock in the bank Um, but just by reducing the government debt it made the bank holdings go down But but the republicans really embraced chartering other banks as a way of creating greater competition to the bank in the united states And and so it kind of creates a that sort of mechanism as some sort of check on some of the privileges here Yeah, that's that's a there's a there's a great point in in uh, the the The republicans they weren't great, you know the on on you know going the full hardcore aspect on on banking or how maybe as modern austrians we would like this Part of the reason as I talk about is because adam smith in many other proponents really adam smith who is very influential Otherwise had a pretty free mark You know benefit free market influence on american politicians a weak spot was monetary Was monetary theory and policy without smith even the most hardcore smithians Free market smithians will admit this hamilton was able to use it to his advantage during the bank debates and um The jefferson's or jeffersonians are kind of left a little flat-footed They know how to criticize monetary cronyism don't necessarily know what to replace it with Something that they do end up replacing it with is that at least on the state level They engage in what's really a a def de facto deregulation by just saying all right We're not going to get rid of the chartering system. We're just going to issue a lot more charters Right, which is that if you're if you're making the doctor's license is easier to get then you're really just Deregulating the system, of course. It's not perfect. You still have the licensing system for doctors But if it becomes a lot easier for doctors to get it or at least easier for certain people to get it then it's a deregulation Unfortunately, there are issues with this because The power to charter is still in control of the state legislature so you can play favorites So my book I go through all these these examples in various states on how Uh, you know the the republicans They would they they would talk to talk, but they wouldn't always walk the walk They did, you know issue more charters, etc. But they played favorites because they moderated they realized that if they get bank bankers in the financial groups Supportive of banking on their side, then they are going to vote for them in elections Okay, which is again desire to expand your electoral base. It's a corrupting problem And so on so this is um the the the bank deregulation that goes on the state level is a fascinating Um side story of the the struggle between liberty and power and the the cronyism that results from it Yeah, I think it's interesting the way that you highlight some of these explicitly partisan aspects of this financial system You can I think it's interesting with some of the parallels out there right now on sort of the degree to which Uh, uh, you know the need to create sort of parallel institutions, right the fears of You know, say people on the right having the banking system use them by progressive woke capital or whatever I mean that that really was sort of the the setting here Um, you know, you had erin burr's bank in new york city going up against hamilton's bank and The the attempts of using the legislature to to help benefit one at the expense of others Uh, you know, similar things playing out with explicitly republican banks in pennsylvania Going against explicitly federalist banks in pennsylvania. Again, you really do see the degree to which A partisanship is completely dividing these institutions And and I think it's also important because it's the same sort of thing. It's happening You know within the press, right? You have newspapers effect something I meant to mention earlier is that one of those other signs of Of moderation from jefferson was simply the decision to go with a more moderate republican Newspaper as sort of the newspaper of choice over the most radical You know, again when we're talking about these partisan party systems here in you know, the the 18th century the 19th century These really are parallel tracks rather than sort of this you know, uh politics as sort of theater You know, we're in the 20th century everything, you know, the two parties they disagree in public But there's a lot of agreement behind the scenes here. There really was divides and in separation Of depending upon, you know, where your political loyalty was. Yeah, that's that's that's that's a great point. It's a fantastic illustration of the differences between politics back in the day and politics now where politics It was fiercely competitive in a sense that you took sides You you just really tried to bring out the faithful in elections and whichever side brought out more of its faithful One the election in that one way you would communicate to the faithful was through these Newspapers and as a side note, I love newspapers if you actually look at old newspapers in the 1800s They always had a section it's huge paper They, you know Pages and they always had a section it would take up one page and it was it was sort of collections of all sorts of other little One or two sentence lines from other like-minded newspapers So it was like a collection of tweets You or you could scroll and you would see it's like a lot of newspapers They would just collect various information from other newspapers, etc And so I just always found that is like, oh, well, it was like the my it was like the the twitter of back in the day You know, you'd be updating these, um You know once once a day and so on but yeah having jefferson He he chose to um, he chose me. I think it was the national intelligence Or was his preferred newspaper as opposed to the aurora and this this this was upsetting The national intelligence or basically became As time went on it became sort of the dispokesman for cronyism in the swamp. It would basically support Congress's various special interest legislation and the newspaper saying oh, this is going to benefit the public This is a this is a good thing, etc. And in return congress would grant it The it would give it various lucrative contracts for printing documents. So the actual Publishing house of the newspaper this happened at the state level as well as the federal level This is a really clear example of alliance have thrown an altar, right? And this is like medias corrupt now and it was It was corrupt back then where they would support these policies in return The congress would give them these printing contracts that you know court They would literally be like you get a 40% rate of return, you know, these extremely lucrative printing contracts That you're like, oh, of course, you're gonna go for the bait and yeah, that that that that was that was an issue But you know the the the the jefferson the jeffersonian Era is really it's just a great example of a of a missed opportunity some notable advances were made by gallatin Etc. But during these early years, it was it was really moderation Um, but there was a still a downward trend In cronyism was more instead of being a total hack and slash it was really just kind of a slow whittling away but unfortunately Matters sort of took a turn for the worst really beginning with the louisiana purchase, which is a whole story into itself Yes, and we will be getting on the the louisiana purchase and the corruptions of land From the jeffersonian administration with the next episode But one little Last little anecdote on the banking issue that I just enjoyed because Henry clay is not one of my favorite american Figures, particularly as a jacksonian But I love that here here. We had Henry clay fighting for Rechartering state banks against the bank of the united states because he was personally invested in banks in katucky in maryland And even even though he was otherwise, you know Very hamiltonian a lot of his other economic viewpoints here We had some skin in the game first for some higher stock payments His investments and and you know smaller state banks Trumped his interest in the bank of the united states What which eventually does kind of a term out Later on when George clinton is the vice president that time rules against it But it's again clay trying to get every little last dime he can yeah Oh, yeah, that's that's one thing that was always true about him and and uh, yeah a lot some state banks were against the bank of the united states Not because they were against central banking per se, but just because they wanted those state banks wanted The bank of the united states monopoly on federal deposits They basically wanted more of that cronyism to themselves because if the federal government is storing money at these banks These banks have a lot more money. They can use to make loans so on and so forth. So it's just a great profit Exit profit opportunity. So henry clay Early on in his career. He took an anti Bank of the united states stance. I won't necessarily say central banking, but of course later on um, he becomes a Enthusiastic supporter of the second bank of the united states. So henry clay. He's also not one of my favorite politicians either And so that kind of leaves us here, you know at We're kind of We skipped a little bit ahead on on kind of just resolving the bank topic but we are going to get into uh, the second term of the jefferson administration To to lean heavily from a quote of yours the republicans had laissez faire in their grasp The empire of liberty was on their horizon Unfortunately matters quickly changed in 1803 um I can I I think this stuff is just so fascinating because you know, so much of this stuff continues to ring true regardless of whether it is the political successes of uh, even to a certain extent the I think some of the failings of jefferson What we're true with some of the bourbon democrats after the civil war and them trying to reclaim Build up the democratic party then I'm sure with the old right true with some of the the conservative movement victories 1980s And some of rothbard's critiques on on you know, why the right continued to fail throughout the 20th century It is the the inability to fully appreciate the need to purge the ranks of You know the cronious aspects of the past and to fill these positions With your own people again. It's just so fascinating to see how much true it was during the jeffersonian days um It's going to be interesting to contrast that with some of the jacksonian stuff Which kind of is kind of gonna sell itself as you know It's in its own right a resurrection of the spirit of 1800 and just the parallels from there That we can still learn from today in this sort of stuff. I find fascinating Patrick before we go. Is there any last sort of Pivots here on again when we're talking about the good stuff of the jeffersonian era Any any last little tidbits that you think listeners should know? Um No, I think really we kind of cover the basics. I think the jeffersonians Really, I think just you should know that we'll talk more about this later on in the podcast series just more about the old republicans about men such as john taylor and and uh In john randoff and how they were really sort of hardcore libertarians. They were anti-state They were small government, etc And that they really did try make an effort in the first jefferson administration to Not have the government moderate to push for even more hardcore reforms, etc And they failed In that you know, they they they got the short end of the stick so to speak but really overall First jefferson administration in terms of overall, you know, just presidential administrations It gets it gets high grades. It gets high marks in in in my book But the second jefferson administration, that's that's where the downfall truly begins And that is where we'll leave off here today on the liberty versus power podcast Again, thank you so much for joining if you enjoy this content, please rate review tell your friends Again history is so important to you know, the better we understand the past the better equipped We're going to be to deal with the future until next time. It's been though bishop patrick newman keep listening