 Well, hello, everybody. Thank you so much for being here. I know it's for for a couple of you at your first spring club and that's awesome. Welcome. And, and I'll introduce myself, even though I know all of you. I'll introduce myself for those watching on recording. I'm Mel Hauser and you should a pronouns and I'm executive director at all brains belong. And I will share screen. So tonight is our new month new month new theme. So, so urgency cultures are theme for February we'll talk about what that is. It may be implied about what but like not only what it is but like where it comes from. And we're going to connect to the concept of internalized equalism. And just by way of introduction, our community agreement, or that you can participate however you are comfortable. As many of you have figured out already you can have your video on or off and even if it's on we do not expect anything of you we certainly don't need you to look at the camera. Walk, move around stem fidget eat. Yes, and everyone is welcome. You can communicate however you're most comfortable you can unmute and shout it out, you can type in the chat box you can, you know, anyway you want to communicate. And just word about language you'll hear myself and maybe other people tonight using identity first language. For example, I'll refer to myself as autistic, because for me and for many neurodivergent people autism is not something that I have to separate from my identity. So, everyone is welcome to use language to refer to their own identity, because we want to affirm all aspects of identity, and respect and protect one another's access needs. And, and as a community access needs a collective access need just a reminder that today is for education purposes it's not for medical advice, and individual traumatic experiences are best processed in a therapeutic setting, not a brain club. So if you have a bit of access needs. Close captioning is enabled, you just need to turn it on. So if you'd like to use close captioning you can click the live transcript CC icon and if your version of zoom doesn't have that. Try the more dot dot dot, and choose show subtitles. Okay. And you can click hi so does hide some feels turn it off. All right. So content warning. So we're going to be talking about ableism and internally ableism, which can be quite painful for for for many people. And so we just invite you to take care of yourself how whatever that looks like including, you know, taking a break even leaving brain club if this topic is not is not a fit for you tonight. And, so urgency culture. I'm reading this, this amazing book written by a group of reminders. So it's called parenting for social justice and in this book, the editor Angela Burkfield defines culture as a shared set of norms values ways of life and assumptions about how the world works. Some parts are obvious, and some parts are less obvious and sometimes even hard to notice or describe. And ultimately, culture is based on power systems. And this is some people may may I sometimes this this concept of the Eisenhower matrix is used in like productivity. It's not how I'm using it in fact it's like the opposite of how I'm using it. I'm, it's more as to say that in life, there are things that are urgent and things that are less urgent, there are things that are important and things that are less important. And so often messages are sent that things are urgent and important, but it's false so urgency culture is the is this world where that false message of urgency and importance is like the alarm is sounding all day long. And this quote comes from Steven Covey, urgent matters are those that require immediate attention. These visible issues pop up demand your attention now and come with clear consequences for not completing them. Putting spending too much time putting out fires can produce a great deal of stress and results in burnout. No kidding. So in a world where messages of urgency are sent all the time and it's false. I would submit that that is bad for health. So, zooming out at this image of Google Maps because you know you're like so zoomed in you don't even know what continent you're on sometimes when you zoom out. What is urgency culture reflective of. It's a product of power systems. So many different types of power systems. And the first time this came to my attention. It was like, Oh, how did I not see that before. And once I have a kind of brain that when the pattern is named and spotted. I don't see it and I in fact see it everywhere. And so, and I think awareness of being controlled by a power system is the first step of, of, of, of, and then, and then of course it's all the many layers of privilege that come from having autonomy over doing something about the awareness. The awareness I think is what, what, what, what may allow the zooming out and saying this is not a reflection on me. This is this is a system. I was set up. Now this connects to ableism. And of course when we think about the intersectionality of all the many ways in which we people are othered in all of the, all of these different ways that all add up exponentially for people who are marginalized for multiple reasons. We can't really talk about ableism like by itself. So, I'm just going to acknowledge that, but for purposes of just making the point about how urgency culture connects to ableism I am going to discuss it in a vacuum but in real life it does not exist in a vacuum. And this, this graphic comes from Talia Lewis. A system of assigning value to people's bodies and minds based on societally constructed ideas of normalcy, productivity, desirability, intelligence, excellence and fitness. And these ideas, Talia describes are deeply rooted in power systems. You know, when we, when we think about systemic oppression, urgency culture is doing that, because when we think about internalized ableism, the ableism directed at oneself as a consequence of growing up in a world where that is ableist and messages of being broken and defective and deficient are everywhere. And so when those ideas are internalized, what happens, there's the fear of rejection fear of negative appraisal, the message that your needs don't matter that your access needs the things you need to fully and meaningfully show up and participate in your life. The fact that you have needs in some way is needy and that that is somehow bad, the message that it's bad to set boundaries and a lifetime of overriding limbic responses to this is not safe. This is not good for me. This is not meeting my needs. Having the cortical the cortex overriding that limbic response that becomes ingrained. And so we're gonna have so much time. I'm a recovering New Yorker I speak way too quickly. But this this was the this was the only background and premise I had is just that I think that because of internalized ableism. It makes it really hard to even recognize urgency culture as a thing you get so caught up in it. So, um, yeah, there are some strategies some scripts. This comes from the holistic psychologist on Instagram, some scripts to buy some space. But again, you, you already have to be at a place where you have some degree of autonomy and social capital in order to set boundaries, because of all the other power systems. So, what do people think about this. I'm reading in the chat from Amy. Yes, all of this resonates so much. Yep, I can speak to it a little bit. I mean, I think we see it in social structures but where I have encountered it most is in workplace culture. Because I think we have a little bit more control in our social realm about who we, at least we have the ability to have more control about who we interact with and how we interact with in the workplace. There's often just the dynamic of disproportionate power systems right already. And I can, I've been in so many reviews and when I worked in health care center and I won't mention any names but where my reviews were very soft, like the feedback was somewhat on soft skills. But when I like would request more clarity, it was like I was supposed to kind of know like what they meant by that and I would ask for specific examples and they could never be given so it was very frustrating for me. And I ended up just being like well if you can't give me examples then I'm going to assume that I don't have anything to approve on because you're not giving me any examples. I really go over well too so it was just kind of like, I never really figured out how to make it clear or easier for myself to like become to some kind of communication understanding. Yes, like that story I hear versions of that story like all day, like, and I've lived that story so yeah totally. Like, is it hard to even spot that urgency cultures happening. Like, I like, can you separate it from opening this opening us up to the to the whole group. Can you tell when there's a problematic culture of urgency. It's going to say I've experienced it like much of my life like I know that just day to day, like my parents sort of getting ready to go to school or college today come on we've got to leave or you've got to get this done you've got to get that done like when it comes to home work. And also when I was, when I was sort of an adult, like, they'd be like oh you can't, you can't sort of hang around sort of thing this life isn't the dressing rehearsal, but actually. To the point that there wasn't time to stop and listen to what I was saying because because there's like, all this sort of hustle culture and all this. Until it was until I have needs, until I have needs that I felt what needed to be looked at urgently and then people weren't interested in that but it's like when there's something they sort of think is urgent or needs to be. It's like, there is very much a hustle culture I found. Yeah, yeah, I grew up in an environment where there was it was very much. You got to do the thing and you got to do the thing now because if you don't do the thing there are consequences and the consequences were completely arbitrary. But it was very very stressful. And I think for many people that's all they've known. I would say it's very noticeable to me. I mean, well, at least for me it's been like the advent of teams, Microsoft teams becoming very popular. I never knew how much something like that would really feel like kind of overwhelming or feel like it took over my life in terms of my work. All of a sudden you know I needed, like a lot of workplace accommodations because you know that type of thing but I'm not talking about myself basically I'm just saying that the teams I've noticed that it's increased, you know, at least from my perspective and increase urgency culture, a great deal. Like people are used to using it and there's some advantages of it for many people, however, the instant messaging impact and we didn't have that I guess you want to say back in the day. People also started to expect that same type of a response time you know teams type of response time that immediacy with like emails with vocal communication I don't know it just feels like for me that it's related. In some way. Yeah, I mean it's interesting because when you think about access needs teams. I mean, I've, I've fortunately never worked in a workplace that the teams was a thing for, but you know I worked, I've worked at a place where the equivalent was a thing. And it's the, the interruptions and actually I did a training last week for this really awesome organization that was reflecting that even though no one says that you're expected to respond to teams immediately. There's like this hidden culture like the hidden curriculum or the message of like it comes ergo it must be responded to you and you think about access needs in terms of like concentration attention and like all that intrusion like how are you going to work done. Yeah, I'm going to share a link in the chat to you know because it's a little bit too hard to explain because it involves like neuroscience and it goes and talks about computer systems, scheduling. And, you know, it happened to work out perfectly from my brain and may work out perfectly for other people where my brain happens to flow this way actually I started doing this intuitively and naturally adapting your design your life around my brain. According to all these principles, even before I saw the video I saw the video and it validated everything that I had started doing actually. I'm going to go ahead and put the, I'm going to find the link to put in the chat, but basically it explains how, you know, some brains work according to computer systems scheduling. And the actual way of working is it goes against the way that I guess that are, it goes against the norms you'll see when it's a five minute video but you'll see what I mean when I put it in there, and it very much goes against urgency culture and what people expect in terms of urgency cultures I'm going to throw it in there. Thank you. For my wife and I, whenever we're traveling through airports. She can't raise her arm above her like, like waist level, and she's like you can't necessarily other than the fact that she like limbs a little bit you can't tell that she's disabled right away. So if, like, I don't go first through security and explain the security guard that like she can't raise her hand or anything like that. They try and rush her through and like start giving her attitude that she can't do it right away. You see, I don't get really frustrating for her and I hate the airport my own separate reasons but I know that just kind of having to be like that is really like frustrating to deal with to and because it's this huge like hustle like, like, like all it would take was for like, you know, four or five seconds of explaining that and then it usually ends up in her getting like pat down searched every single time which that is really intrusive. So intrusive, so intrusive, and you know it's interesting. I think that from a conflicting access needs standpoint, and like in in healthcare, we, I, you know, I give the examples of like the system. Many, many, like the system and many environments are dysregulating the healthcare providers and then the healthcare providers go into a go into a room, or you know, the whole interdisciplinary staff sometimes are dysregulated be from the system and then the energy that's coming to this encounter is having adverse impact on the patients and but like no one's naming that it's just like chaos and angst. And I wonder to what extent that also is what goes on in airport security like the pressure to churn the thing and do the thing and like the like. Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's culture and it's problematic and it's causing harm. And without awareness, I think of like, I mean, most people don't. They have no awareness of like your own levels of regulation, let alone be able to say like this is, you know, not me. I'm reading. I'm reading in the chat. Oh, it's Mia and Mia's raising your hand so I can, I can read to myself while while you can, if you'd like to speak me and go ahead. Yeah, I was saying that to Jade as as a trans woman with issues around my body. I was unable to see an elderly relative in India before she died because I was too afraid to fly and nobody would work with me to grant me reasonable adjustments until it was too late. And I was subjected to a 10 year hate campaign just for trying to raise awareness of this issue. And it's like, I've often felt alone on this so it's like really helpful to see that there are other people who feel that way. And, and it's like, if, if you, if you ever want to talk just feel free to add me on Facebook or whatever. But Thank you Mia you are not alone. There are so like the power systems play out in, in really, really awful ways. Sarah. Yeah, and that's part of the power system right that's, that's part of what keeps the perpetuates the power system. It's the narrative. Yeah, so the narrative is no one else feels like this. Yes, that is a really, really critical point. And, and when we at the end of the month when we, when we when we discuss the bernie Brown book. That is one of the elements that bernie Brown asserts as driving shame. So like shame culture is driven by that message that says you're alone. You're the only one. Sarah. I was just thinking about when you said, how can you identify that you are living in urgency culture. And I feel like one of the first ways to identify it is just exhaustion, like noticing that you're go go going all the time. Sometimes it's hard to see it until you're in that state of exhaustion. So I think like that is a good clue to kind of slow down and identify areas where there's maybe urgency that there doesn't need to be urgency. Absolutely. I'm just catching up in the chat. Emily says I feel like urgency culture trickles into social world as well. People get impatient if you're a slow talker or pause before answering. Yes. I sometimes find that by the time I have formulated what I want to say the conversation has moved on. It feels like it's gotten worse in recent years, and that might just be my perception but I also wonder if it's because everything in our world moves so quickly these days. People feel like they don't have time to stop and honor the time it takes to have a real conversation. And Sierra says I agree Emily that's why I like doing things like zoom where I can share my thoughts via chat without interrupting the flow of conversation. Emily is also adding I feel I feel that way a lot. Yeah, I think a lot of people do, especially when you think about like ideational dyspraxia the sequencing of ideas like I have no idea what I'm going to say until I'm going to say it. And if I don't have like the scaffold to be like writing out a thing it's, you know, it's very hard to fit that into conversation. Amy. I've had more, what I would say like resource or have more clarity around my own direct experience and so I have been taking more time in my response to like conflict I've had since like being diagnosed, you know, knowing I'm kind of realistic now that like I'm changing the dynamics in the in all of my relationships because I'm like I flip my lid more often and I more direct around I'm not worried about being rude. So that when the mass comes off and so I've had this. Basically, when people are anxious or dysregulated they're used to me taking care of them. And so now I'm just realizing, oh that's not my job. But there's like this, I can feel the urgency within them of like, and so then it becomes this like disjointed conversation where I'm just like letting them have responsibility for their feelings and so. But I'm also like saying things like what happened in that conversation was really hurtful or I might need more time. So just before this just right before this. I was sending a text to a family member basically saying, you know I appreciate your apology, I just need more time to process this because it triggered things and I know I'll work through it. And like I had to call my sister and say, I feel like this is controversial, like I feel I feel like this text is controversial, and she's just gave me the feedback like how is taking care of yourself and giving yourself time and space is really controversial. And I realize is because there's this feeling of like being in trouble all the time and so when you have that you're, I have to answer that text as fast as I can I have to know exactly how I feel about this, and I can feel like I would be easier for me just to take care of the anxious person in front of me, then it is actually to take the time and space of like, how did that actually that interaction actually affect me. And that's been the difference and so there's feels like there's more chaos because I created order by trying to regulate the my outside world. And now I'm like focus and have the support and resource and encouragement to regulate my inside world. And so I just wanted to call that out like it's not like a controversial to like take your time. Amen to that. I think though it may for for many people who are beginning the problem but who are beginning this journey of like zooming on saying it's not controversial to take your time. A script can buy a lot of time, like just having like, you know, because a script is automated speech you don't have to think about it and plan it out and motor planet just like. So, so a script might be something like, you know, huh. Let me think about that and get back to you. Just give me one minute. Yeah, you know, let me think about that before I answer. And this way, and you just kind of rolls off the tongue and not at first but maybe like after a few months of practicing that like maybe it's not so stressful to say. Yeah, maybe I don't have to just blurt out the thing because really, I know I've been given the message it's something bad is going to happen if I don't respond right away. Like I'm going to not be able to respond because someone's going to talk over me power over me so I better say something right so there's all these like we've lived experience of why why I think we do that and why we develop those emotional habits. So I'm going to chat. Pat says, I don't think it's just your perception, I think referring to Emily's comment about, you know, of that it's getting worse over time. But I feel like I need to shoot off this quick message in a chat before the conversation moves on. I have to type it and then reread it three times that resonates. And before I hit send because they can't be any typos either goodness know all the judgment. Sierra. I need to unmute. I was reading something today and they were talking about advocating for yourself at work. And they were talking about if, if you have a job that's like nine to five and somebody is giving you something very, very urgent to do at the end of the day, saying, thanks. My day ends at five, I will prioritize that first thing tomorrow morning. And I really not again, I don't have a job that's signed to five. I thought that was a really good way to be like I understand this is urgent and I will address it and I'll prioritize it but this can't be done right now I will prioritize it when I'm in the space for me to do this thing. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think, you know, whatever that script is, you know, that's a script right so. The same way that you might say like the same way that like for examples. If, if, if I'm having a conversation with someone and they bring up something really important, but we don't have enough time to cover that thing. It's not that your thing is not important it's that really need more time. And so, you know, let's, let's make arrangements that to have, have another conversation. Because time, even though I don't have the kind of brain that feels time time the way I say to Luna is that time is a circle, it keeps on going whether I feel it or not. So, so yeah, just reading reading in the chat. Emily says I was in a training about the oh sorry I missed these comment first. I'm looking at conversations about when people are doing power over me has been really eye opening. Oh yeah, once you see it you can't done see it. Emily says I was in a training where people were teaching a quote social communication intervention that emphasize closing circles of communication. I got critiqued because I was holding conversations with a child I was working with that included long turns and thoughtful pauses. I got told that communication circles need to be rapid bad and forth right because as though there's one way to have a conversation. That's the neuro normative conversation of short conversational turns. Neurotypically biased and ableist. Yeah, once you take the mask off it really can't doesn't come back. I said, what if the topic at hand requires longer turns and thinking pauses, and they told me the topic is not the point that rapid back and forth is, oh man, oh good you called the ableism to. So what I feel is that that's an example of urgency culture directly trickling down into the world of intervention yeah for sweet little message that you have like five seconds to get your turn out and then it's not your turn anymore and then if you don't know the way that your innate communication style is the people won't want to go. That's the message. And Christina says I'd like to try to put into practice with my partner before I share something that I'm going to take a little time to ask, are you available to listen to me for share for a bit before I launch into my whole story. Yeah, that's a great strategy for navigating conflicting access needs. Like I have the kind of brain that talks in long conversational turns, but I also have the kind of brain that can't listen to long conversational turns so it's about when am I available. I've already said this before in a brain club but my wife is very one thing in her attention field at a time, and I love to just blur it out whatever's going on in my brain and so I constantly have a list on my phone going of all these are the things I want to tell her when she's in a brain space where she can do it and then whatever at night I go through the 20 different thing random things I thought of during the day that I wanted to tell her that I didn't want to interrupt her and it's decreasing it's like okay my brain says it is urgent because I'm going to forget it in two minutes if I don't say it right now, but by putting it in that separate space is decreasing the urgency culture. I love that Sierra, because it's really it's user it's negotiating conflicting access need the, you know, working memory supports, you know, and then the visual supports to hold to retrieve it later. Yes, Mia. Yeah, I was thinking of a situation a couple of months ago. I think I might have said it on the call I don't remember but I was at the shop. I was at the supermarket and one of the, and the cashier, he dropped one of my items, and I said on the floor and I, with my OCD I struggle around floors, and I was trying to say to him oh, can you, can you not pick that up for a minute just to let me like, because I was hoping that he'd not, not pick it up until he finished serving me and I was going to get another one, another item. But he picked it up before I could say anything and that feels like an example of this urgency culture like everything has to be done right away. It's not even to do with the cashier but the culture that okay you've got to like people do things so quickly. They don't know they're doing it, but I actually a couple of years ago a similar thing happened. And I posted on Facebook about it and somebody said, I was thinking about how they have this quiet hour in the supermarket. And I was thinking about maybe they should do the same with OCD like take, but somebody said, somebody responded to me in an OCD group. And someone said, oh, I'm, that sounds like I can see how that might have upset you. And I remember he's sponsored with something to the effect but, but we need to remember that getting other people to enable it, getting other people to enable us and indulge in our rituals is ultimately bad for us or something that made me feel a lot worse for hating that because it's like, what, it's like, oh, the way the way you think is the gongs almost whereas actually it makes sense that that I'd be anxious about germs especially in a COVID, especially after COVID. Yes, and I'm so sorry that you were given that message. I mean, it should be fairly, it's even, you know, I think people with all types of brains, or many types of brains, you know, might not want to eat food off the grocery store floor. Like, but to be shamed for that doesn't even matter. It's like you're not comfortable with it you asserted your access needs and you were shamed for it, like that. And so I think I think I'm previewing a lot of the brain club on the 28, but being able to write with this book that we're going to talk about is even, and please come even if you haven't read the book. It's not like book club where you read the book and come to discuss it's like we're just chatting about the concepts of the book which is concepts we talk about anyway. But what the idea is that when you can recognize shame as the as a very particular emotional experience of feeling defective and deficient, when you can, when you can like name that, and then match the pattern in yourself. Then you can say, oh, just, you know, just like when a bunch of people shared in the chat like when I can spot a power over interaction I could be like, Oh, oh no, that has nothing to do with me. That too. So it's not, it's it's not me it's like that person just shamed me, like, that's the thing they did, like, that's not on me. And that's, that's, that doesn't happen. If you don't recognize it as shame. And that's the thing about internalized ableism. I'm reading Nina in the chat. Sierra's idea was great when it comes to conflicting access needs it's hard to hold it in when burst with excitement to tell my already high energy rate greatly increases so watch out. Yeah, for sure. I definitely that's it that's a conflicting of like, and I'm seeing this play out of my household Luna and I, we both work out because we both have no working memory. And so that gets if it gets labeled as interrupting that has a negative connotation. When if it if you through the lens of, you know, limited working memory, you know, dopamine bound brain, highly impulsive, like, it's the same thing but depends on what paradigm you're viewing it through about whether you're going to judge the person or not. Luna said yesterday, you're not a good person. And I said, oh yeah, why is that why am I not a good person, because you interrupt. And so we had, you know, it was like anti ableism training for for six year old, because. Yeah, guess what, it's part of my disability and yours. Like cat says conflicting access needs. When I was on a roll getting things done I had to learn not to interrupt my kids when they were working in their rooms with their doors closed. I used to go in to grab the laundry to ask questions etc and broke their concentration flow and annoyed them. Now I keep a list of things for later just like Sierra's. So that is being urgency culture but yeah all the interruptions were not really urgent. Right, and I think that for for many people who grew up in a household or very similar interactions happened. It wasn't like because there was something wrong with the person perpetuating that culture, it was, it's emotional habit, it's impulse control it's, it's, it's monotropism really like so if you have the kind of brain that fewer things captivate your brain, you're just out of time and do so more intensely. If you're doing laundry, the only thing that's going to captivate your right, your attention is laundry and so you're not going to be able to stop zoom out and say, Oh, my child is studying in the room behind the closed door because you're like doing laundry attentional tunnel. It's just, it's part of how a lot of people's brains work. And it says that their eight rolled had to teach them the same lesson to exact same story. And, yeah, Christina, and, and, and I would say the same, you know, that was my mother yep. Nina's learning this also there's a lot of there's a yes, yes, this is a very common phenomenon. Yeah, you have to learn about a lot of tropism exactly yep. So, so circling back to the connection between urgency culture and internalized ableism one of my, my, my wonderings when we came up with this topic was that is, is, is it, is it possible that if you don't, if you don't catch your own internalized ableism from time to time. Does that make it more likely that you get swept up in urgency culture because if you can spot the culture can be like, Oh, that's a power system. No. But if you like actually internalize the ableism, maybe, maybe you don't get to do that, because maybe you are, you know, well if I if I get the message from my supervisor that I don't do the thing, and I don't do the thing now. I'm going to tell me that I'm broken and I heard that's already what I think and it would be the worst thing ever to get that message. Reading in the chat. Sarah says, yes, I think of how urgency culture affects children, their excitement and inability to hold in their ideas get shamed or labeled as impulsivity instead of excitement or passion. And because of the go go go nature of our culture and systems, there is a desire for a whole group of kids to do the same thing at the same time power over in order to keep the same schedule. And Jade says I grew up in a household where my mom would often make me feel like she was demanding answers immediately, and it took me a long time to realize with text messaging for example that I don't actually have to respond to this right away especially if I'm trying to do something sleep or need time to think about it. Sarah. This is maybe an obvious and important or implied and what, what's already being said but for me I'm thinking that urgency culture is is sort of inextricably intertwined with productivity culture. So, what, and what that means I mean the assumption that I grew up with was that it was okay to interrupt people who weren't quote unquote doing anything, or the person who had the person who had the, the highest productivity that or the higher level of product, you know, the higher ranked productivity thing, they got to interrupt the lower productivity person that the higher value of productivity gets to gets to trump the lower. Yeah, yeah, exactly the power system thing and so it's really like a lot of the urgency is tied to the productivity, which is then, which is basically when we're talking about that we're talking about basically we're talking about survival so we're back into the people like if I'm not it's urgent because if I, at least for me the way it tracks is it's the reason that it's urgent is because I need to be productive in order to do blah blah blah in order to survive or have the kind of life that I think I need to have. So anyway. Right, because that is culture. You know and when you grow up being fed a message of what like how the world works, but not necessarily reflecting on like what makes it so. You miss the power system part of it if you missed if you really if you miss the social justice framework, which was certainly I was never taught about this it was just, oh yeah you have to be productive so that you can do the things without like what does that mean what for, and and it's it's it's everything you just everything you just said. In the chat Christina says I think my kids probably made me realize how much I did not align with urgency culture, having kids means you get interrupt so much, and I became very familiar with how not good. It was for me, and now I just gently asked them to let me finish my task and I've given this response to others now, totally it's conflicting access needs. The person needs it now, while you need it not now. And just just having a script of, yeah, let me get to a stopping point or I need a minute. You know, because that's that's part of niche construction. I think the point that Sarah raised just now when they said that you know the person in power gets to interrupt the person with less power, and just how how normative that is. And that's so, that's so yeah. I think in a couple of weeks when we have a we've we've, I think it's the 21st is an urgency culture at work and this is going to come up a lot I bet Amy sir I saw your hand and then. Yeah, I had a thought I'm not sure but I know that I had this like a whole year where I kept getting called out for inter being an interrupter. I went inside with it and was like well why I don't feel like I'm inter interrupter because I know it's hard for me to speak particularly in certain like environments. And so I really thought about it and what I realized that most of the people, the people who were telling me I was interrupter were cis men. And it was at a time where I was like really evaluating that and I was like, you get to call me an interrupter but you don't actually create space for me to exist. And so I had I literally have to interrupt because you have these like monologues of like your train of not, and like it's actually gets boring, because I have things to contribute you know and so I basically was like I'm not going to be called interrupter, because I don't think I think I it's like I have to in order to like participate. Yes. By the way I'd say, you know the the the monologue the long conversational turn that gets back to Emily's point. So, so so often. And this is what I think we talked about this a bunch of times in last month's spring clubs of like the person when there's power imbalances, the person turns their access need into policy and culture. And so I have definitely worked in systems like that. Jade. I noticed a huge difference in my transition of just like the assumptions that I would be granted. And the, just like, just like the way that stood out to me like was not lost on me very quickly. And it was just something like, it can also get pushed in the direction of I will get just pushed in like, like, oh you're the token queer person so that's just like, that's my only representation to the group now is just as that. So like, they'll try and like pigeonhole it to just that sometimes too, which gets really frustrating. And but I don't really know I'm going with this anymore but just something I've noticed. Yeah, do you are you in a I mean I imagine it may depend on the on the crowd, but it's it's I wonder is there a, what do you do with that when that happens. Is some is there anyone else who can intervene on your beat can intercede on your behalf to give feedback so it doesn't fall to you to be giving the feedback. I. This can be kind of a weird card to play sometimes, but our HR person is actually gay, which, as I go to her a lot, but I had one guy tried who interpreted that as me just running off to the HR person to complain. Which is just bogus in its own way. And, but, yeah. But she's, but she's been a good resource. At least I'm glad you have a supportive presence and Sarah. What she was saying earlier made me sort of think about about not being about the long monologues is, is if you look is that that's a little bit of like what the experience of the ADHD kid is in school. Like there's this incredibly long monologue that has nothing to do with the, you know, nothing to do with the, with what's important to most of the kids in the classroom. The ADA kid is sort of, or the ADD kid is kind of calling, calling it out. This is going on for so long. And I'm, you know, and now I'm, and I'm not going to. I can't stand it anymore. And, and then they, and they get labeled the anyway, they get labeled the interrupter when when basically there's no space for that person's reality and probably most of the realities of most of the children in the classroom. Yeah, so let's play that out. Now two people have brought that up is like the narrative you get as a kid. So if you get a narrative that says, you know, you're an interrupter, or in any way it's bad to interrupt meaning it's, you know, and that can be extended to it's bad to take up space it's bad to, you know, like to negotiate dynamics by like, but then you also get a question for like, you know, why are you not talking why don't you say anything at the party why don't you participate in class. There wasn't space. And I think, and then people internalize the, oh, I'm the person who doesn't know how to talk in groups. And there's that balance or even you know let's think about this. Even let's take this group right so let's let's let's think about brain club, and there's, you know, even even amongst, you know, you know, a neuro diverse group. There's some neuro divergent people who freely freely flow ideas in real time in conversation and there's some neuro divergent people who don't. And just as there's people who here who don't identify as neuro divergent necessarily you come to brain club and engage and have a hard time inserting themselves into conversation has nothing to do with neuro type it has I think everything to do with your lived experience and your, your access needs your communication access needs. And I think that, you know, I thank you for saying that cat says in the chat that you read the chat out loud is is validating yeah I think that's part of neuro inclusive. So, you know, communication. It's, it's, it's, it's hard. It's hard to do but it's important it's like part of what what this is, but yet there's also it's not the only thing. So, you know, here we are at 652 and most people have not communicated directly, whether in the chat or out loud, and that's okay. And I want it to be a thing where if someone needs quiet time for processing and space to insert themselves into conversation that that is present. And if I'm just like hopping and calling on the people and reading the things, people may not have that. And then I say well, how do I do that, but then I also don't want I don't want to do like the well if you haven't had a chance to speak we're going to sit here in silence until you speak because it's also not required for you to speak or type in the chat because there's no way to participate, you can participate. I need to thank you. Need to says in the chat thank you not that I have anything to say. Right. No, but it's like that's just an example of how do we queue safety for a range of communication styles and preferences. And some of that is, you know, maybe, if there were like, you know, if when I do neuro inclusive employment training we talk about circulating an agenda ahead of time. Just like you know if we do at our advisory board meetings that there's particularly things we have questions about we try to like put them in the agenda so that people can think about them ahead of time because it's the processing time thing. Sometimes it's very hard to process a question or a comment. While there's another question or comment coming through. And so I think, you know, this is all a work in progress and it's, it's my hope that this evolves over time and that the at least hopefully energetically it is felt that there's no way to participate here. But, but I think, I think, I think, I think probably there's, and there's no like, you know, magical way of solving this problem of conflicting access need to go she should but I'd like to try to figure out if there's any ways that you know if there anything that we can be doing to create more space for processing. Yeah, reading in the chat, Jade says one of my favorite things about my dad was that we could be in the same room or car with each other and not speak for hours, and it still made me feel just as close to him as a deep conversation. Oh that's beautiful. Jade says, and there's a lack of understanding that you can't always communicate the same way every day. Yes. For example, some days that come to brain club with camera on and speak with mouth words. Other days like today I don't have spoons for that and so I turn off my camera and type in the chat. So many people don't understand why I can do it. Some days, and not others, they assume that on the days I'm not doing and I must be doing something devious, not paying attention or being manipulated or something I don't really know what they think but I know they don't like it and there's you feel it energetically you feel the judgment. And I think so many people can feel the judgment. And you have the kind of nervous system that is taking in so much extra information, including, you know, whether you call it energy or vibe you can tell when someone's judging, for sure. Some people can. And, and that's real, but so often, you know, think about all the little kids who you know, oh, you know, so and so doesn't like me. Oh, that's not true. You know, and, and that's, that's, I think part of it of yeah that's your perception is your reality. And I think for so many people, we get the message that we are like detached from reality, but but what is reality reality is someone's own experience. And like one of the co-chairs of our board Matt Mulligan he likes to say that like the goal is to become more familiar with your own experience to your own reality. And so I think if you feel it it is true. So, next week we'll be continuing the conversation on urgency culture we're going to be have a, a community panel. Some of whom are here today, talking about urgency culture in everyday life. Somebody posted in the chat Lizzie we change that we change the name of that it's not urgency culture and relationships it can be about relationships but it's just everyday life you want to talk about the relationships you can talk about anything urgency culture in everyday life. Reading in the chat Sarah says there's also some group cultures where people pause after someone has spoken to take in and appreciate and reflect on what was said and the possible meaning for the person who said it, and how it connects with what others have shared and what one feels inspired to offer from one's own experience as a result. I love that can we do that right now I want to take a moment to pause after that and reflect on it and what that means for you and how that connects to what's been shared before and what what what each of us may feel inspired to connect to that idea. And because I have the brain the kind of brain that doesn't feel time I think I've paused for five minutes but it's been like five seconds. Sarah. I was just going to say it reminds me of Fred Rogers, like Mr Rogers was always so slow and so aware of like space and time, and not filling every silence and go go going. But you know as a child that's why I so connected with Mr Rogers like that very slow, deliberate pace of giving people space and time to kind of process and have a conversation. And it's so different than children's programming now. This is very fast you know, and I don't know just the idea of taking space to have pauses it reminds me of Fred Rogers. Fred Rogers was like the, the ultimate neuro diversity and inclusion advocate right I mean he was, you know, he was the ultimate oblique angle. Yeah. And yeah, so, so I, and I'm working backwards in the chat before as we as we wrap up Emily says I watched some old Mr Roger stuff recently and I was really struck by the slow play pace it was glorious. And Jade is saying the video game and anime conventions like go to feel more real than my everyday life sometimes. Yeah. And so it is so often when people show up as their authentic selves right like there's so many people that just you know they don't. Kat says, I feel compelled to tell them what what I'm doing off camera but why. So yes there's so many, so many people when they are there. I have my video off because I'm eating. Like, that's the fault of culture for making you think that you can't eat like people eat. Yeah, Sarah. What, what I'm, what I'm thinking about is the, the, the, there's a different there's my initial idea of conversation as I was throwing up was just, it's about me sharing what I want to share. And, and that's evolved over time. And, and, and I think it's very different. The groups the quality of groups are really different when the whole group is looking out for each other. And the whole group is looking. It said, like, usually in mainstream culture it's the facilitators job to make sure it's everybody plays nicely together and we all play safely, but in this other way of being. It's like, I'm looking to connect with what you say with what you say you're looking to connect with what I say and so we need time to process with what each other has said, and to, and to think through and, and it's the quality of the sharing more so than the quantity of the sharing that really inspires the, that sort of inspires the conversation inspires the offerings and builds the connection. Absolutely it's moving beyond taking turns talking and moving, moving toward a focus on, you know, facilitating the, you know, facilitating connection facilitating the growth and self actualization of the group of the whole group. Thank you all for being here. This was a wonderful conversation and I look forward to seeing you next week. Have a good night.