 Hey everybody today we're debating atheism versus Islam which is best for humankind and we are starting right now with Nadir's opening statement thanks so much for being with us Nadir the floor is all yours thank you um so it's good meeting you Randolph and I'll be telling you today why I believe Islam is the best for mankind there's going to be five main reasons in fact let me share my desktop here real quick the first one just getting right into it is because Islam has done a tremendous amount for for mankind and the one thing I'd like to the first thing I have to start talking about is how Islam started a scientific revolution so basically the Muhammad laid the foundations for what is known as a scientific revolution and and and established what is known as the Islamic golden age and so according to the historians and and again you know I'll go very quickly through my slide I'll ask you guys just to hit pause on your YouTube video just so you can have all my references so what is this golden age of Islam which was spawned by Islam a golden which was spawned spawned by the Quran and Prophet Muhammad this was a flowering of knowledge and intellect that spread throughout Europe and greatly influenced both medical and practical education and I was quoting from the Federation of American Societies for experimental biology and medieval history.net goes on all Western advances in civil engineering mathematics and chemistry and medicine and astronomy were founded upon the medieval sciences of Islam so and then the next reference here talks about how modern mathematics emerge from the lost libraries of Islam and so what what did it what brought about this great scientific revolution this was the teachings of the holy Quran and what Muhammad established so Islam has a very good track record of bringing good to mankind but it doesn't stop there the second point I'd like to bring up is Muslims have the highest level of life satisfaction as you read from the study over here this is quoting from the daily mail Muslims have the highest level of satisfaction and basically it trumps all belief systems now I would be very interested to see what atheism does how does atheism improve mankind I believe if we were to press random he would not be able to find anything and you know one thing I also want to make a distinction on there's a distinction between what is secularism and atheism secularism is an umbrella term which embodies many people there's eight there's Muslims who are secular there's Christians who are secular and Jews in fact majority of Jews are secular as well so that doesn't really tell us anything about atheism so this is the second point which I would like to bring up that they have the highest level of satisfaction and a feeling of oneness that trumps Christians Buddhists yogis as the study suggests let's look at the third reason Muslims are the most charitable and most likely to volunteer based upon the following study which we see inside on Yahoo news in the conversation it says over here the Muslims gave more to charity than other Americans not only that but it also said they were also more likely to volunteer from from the study so here we see that Islam has brought about a great amount of good to this world and even something which you can measure and you can see today so I'd be very interested to see how does atheism change people's life the belief that there is no god is there any way that they could even compete with us let's look at the third reason actually let me go to the fourth reason here is Islam is a powerful rehabilitating force in the prison system so basically this is what they study done by many different researchers and this was the conclusion of their study right over here it says our research shows that Muslim prisoners are more likely to choose a practice Islam for reasons of piety emotional coping and good company these largely largely sincere motives for choosing to follow Islam impact in a significant and positive knock on way on prisoners attitudes to rehabilitation in terms of their reconnection with work education and and and an intention to avoid future crime does atheism in any way rehabilitate people in fact you know just from my own personal experience as you could all all all over America first of all you will find that there are uh uh chapels Islamic chapel or many many people have converted to Islam and it has changed their life for the good let's let's keep reading uh let's keep reading the study over here I said the element of conversion or to uh I'm sorry the elements of conversion to or within Islam as a rejection of materialism often reflected in an identity shift of the prisoner this is what's important here sloughing off the previous life of crime which had been driven by excessive desire for material gain so as I was saying from my personal experience I've also worked a little bit in the prison in the prison ministry and I've seen many people who have changed their life for the better uh because of Islam uh let's keep going over here and so this is basically an article from the St. Louis American finding Islam in the prisons this is how former prisoners are changing their life again it says the conversion from Christianity to Islam is a forceful phenomenon that seems to have a very a positive impact on the lives of many behind bars and has helped ex-prisoners stay out of prison with an estimated 40,000 inmates converting to Islam each year Islamic teachings and lifestyles and um and alter lifestyle alterations have made prisons a center space for Islam in America so this is also important many of these people the conversion from Christianity to Islam this is a this is really what is a major impact here and this is what you are going to find is no religion is going to be able to bring about this type of good this much amount of good other than Islam and then finally um where to go to the next point over here and Islam succeeds where other belief systems fail okay so there's a verse in the Quran which actually condemns alcohol now many people condemn alcohol there's also other religions which condemn alcohol but Islam succeeds where others fail to lower the rates of alcohol related problems such as crime drunk driving and feel alcohol syndrome mass shooting so telling us okay well Islam condemns alcohol therefore it's true that's not my argument my argument is um other belief systems do condemn out some some of the other belief systems actually do condemn alcohol but they fail to really make an impact on society and humanity like Islam does Islam is the only one which does so as we can see in this documentation so let's let's take a look at the first impact Muslim this is basically a study done on something known as fetal alcohol syndrome and this is basically a disease which happens inside the you know when the woman drinks expecting mother drinks alcohol it could harm the fetus and it could cause cases of retardation of violence and children so what they discovered was Muslim women are 50 times lower than the global average to give a fetal alcohol child so yeah true maybe one out of 10 people can say yeah I think he should not drink alcohol at all but very few people I mean Islam is the only religion which can really produce these type of results and so in the next study which was done on children's fetal alcohol syndrome again all my references are right there on the screen for you this was basically posted in the national library of medicine one of the crime exclusion criterias were observing Muslim women whose religious practices prohibited alcohol consumption and going back to the previous study notice that they each one is citing the Islamic faith which promotes the accidents of alcohol so 50 times less likely than the global average so so so let's look at not only that but let's look at alcohol and crime it is an estimated 36% of crimes committed in in America is is alcohol induced and then so let's talk about how much good Islam is not only saving children from fetal alcohol syndrome but helping reduce crime and alcohol they say is a factor in 40% of crimes in the next in the next study over here and the list goes on so in conclusion look at this Islam started a fantastic scientific revolution which all of humanity has benefited Muslims have the highest level of satisfaction among all people Muslims are more charitable and more likely to volunteer they are the highest rate of charity and we see how it's a powerful rehabilitating force in the prisons Islam succeeds where others fail in terms of reducing the rate of fetal alcohol syndrome and crime in general now some people in closing some people may try to associate Islam with terrorism or look at all this terrorism stuff that has nothing to do with Islam and that definitely can be debated tonight and I will prove that as we have this discussion and I like so the question I'll have for Randolph how does atheism in any way can compete with Islam go ahead Randolph thank you very much Nadir for that opening statement and want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up for example at the bottom right of your screen that's just one example of upcoming debates that are going to be as I mentioned quite juicy so I want to say though whether you be atheist Muslim Christian you name it we appreciate you being here and with that thanks so much Randolph the floor is all yours thank you Nadir thank you James thank you to everybody for tuning in I I suppose we will be discussing some of these issues that you raised in your opening statement in the next section of this debate I do have an opening statement ready so I will start with this freedom that's what this is all about this intrinsic characteristic of atheism leaves people with personal sovereignty because there are no requirements to conform to anything ideological or otherwise it is foundational for all of humankind even prior to the formations of societies with freedom as its fundamental value members of a society can thrive in so many ways and especially including creatively through art music writing scientific and technological endeavor and invention debates like this one and other free exchanges of ideas plus so much more humankind in my opinion flourishes or it seems to me anyway that it does because we tend to progress more when we're not confined by arbitrary restrictions Islam on the other hand takes submission as its central theme it's in the name and like many other religions demands conformity over a free hand Islam controls your way of living for example how you eat and when you fast how you sleep who you can talk with who your friends are who you support in disputes and whatnot do you prefer to live in a society where everyone has the freedom to make up their own minds on things like this on their own lives it seems to me that most people don't enjoy working from within the confines of micromanagement I believe that when people can live life to its fullest in accordance with their needs and desires in harmonious ways that this is actually better for society and ultimately for humankind while the individual though and that's an easy one to answer to control the masses if laws and regulations are fair and just then legal limitations tend to be regarded as reasonable if laws and regulations are unfair and unjust then legal limitations can be inconveniences or at best and dangerously oppressive at worst such as when a punishment doesn't fit the crime we hear this saying a lot enter John Rawls a philosopher contemporary philosopher in his 1971 book a theory of justice presented an idea known as the veil of ignorance which promotes a philosophy of ethics through empathy as an intellectual tool for lawmakers to draft fair and just laws in a manner that embraces the needs of people in the most inclusive of ways in an Islamic society the veil of ignorance would lead to contravening the sharia requirements that are centered around a 14 year old religious doctrine this inflexibility is not in line with a goal of higher quality living because laws must be adapted to support people with the minimum amount of impositions and disruptions to people's lives or in other words maximum freedoms in an atheistic society the veil of ignorance can flourish without such limitations which in turn supports a higher quality of living for everyone hence higher quality of living must be a goal unencumbered that's freely available to all thank you James thank you Nadir the pleasure is all mine Randolph and very excited to jump into the open dialogue section do want to mention folks we are absolutely thrilled check out the bottom right of your screen another huge debate coming up at our upcoming conference modern day debate debate con which is happening in Dallas Texas January 15th and 16th in particular Elijah Schaefer and destiny collide on whether or not religion and government can overlap and so if you haven't already hit that subscribe button and with that thank you very much Randolph and Nadir the floor is all yours for open dialogue well i think you might be on mute Nadir let me uh i'm sorry about that thank you Randolph yeah uh yeah i just wanted to kind of comment on what you've presented it seems like what you have presented is more opinion based and it is not founded upon real research now please gap me just gonna give you one statistic which i which i presented to you it says Muslims have the highest life satisfaction than any group of people okay so you said okay well Islam can't do that because it's so restrictive which i don't think is correct but this is proving you wrong this is showing you that it actually works you know and and so when you see something like i mean i guess you've said basically that this atheism produces happiness and the freedom of that atheism gives do you have any kind of documentation or whether it appear review journals that can substantiate that happy that atheism is really producing this great happiness and and all the stuff oh i'm not promoting a bias toward happiness the happiness is one aspect of living a high quality life but happiness isn't forever not everybody wants to be happy all the time this is of course there are times when we need to go through different emotions and different feelings in our life because if all we have is happiness then we can end up becoming neurotic and that that is a concern for me so i don't want to present the bias now atheism doesn't have a bias toward any particular emotion emotion this is up to the individual now in society as i see other people who are not feeling they're feeling kind of down i'll show concern for my fellow person my fellow man my fellow woman and uh be uh wondering if there's something i can do to help them i may not have the answer for them and that's okay um the fact that there's somebody out there to provide support is important this is the empathy aspect of it and this seems to come naturally with people i don't think we need a religion to tell us to care about one another because this seems to come up automatically with a lot of people and you're right yes these are my opinions based on what i've seen in in life now i do question the statistics that muslims are happier than everybody else because the questions that come up for me is how do you measure happiness because what can make one person happy and feeling satisfied may not make another person feel happy well let me let me just kind of jump in and talk about this so i think you are conceding that a lot of your beliefs and justifications for um you being an atheist is is subjective and based upon personal experience and personal interpretation but as far as you come in tonight and really presenting any kind of statistics or any kind of figures that's just not going to happen you don't have that for us tonight it would you pretty much assume that's correct or i'm i'm not conceding that that's the case this is a fact what you stated okay so no concession yeah and regarding the study if you have any questions regarding the the data which i've presented to you definitely are welcome to produce a peer-reviewed journal some submit it to the scientific community with your findings and your studies and get a peer reviewed and once it goes through the proper channels and the scientific community looks at your research and says okay muslims are not the most happiest people based on randall's research i would be more than happy to retract my statement so get it peer reviewed and but i i think when i'm listening to you there is a lot of you know well this is how it appeals to me personally but you know that's a very subjective way of really looking at it and and you know i've shown you like for example let me just share you another you know if you want to take a look at it there's countries there's a website called worldpopulationreview.com you you cited something from the daily mail and that's fine the they're they're listing the top seven happiest countries in the world and finland is number one now finland is not known as a muslim majority country nor is denmark which scored second place switzerland third place norway fourth place third and fifth place and an honorable mention for butan so these countries aren't known for being predominantly having a demographic makeup of muslims right correct so these countries um which are generally known to be secular and you did point out a correct distinction between secularism and atheism earlier um that is we can get into that later the um the thing is there um nobody's being required to be part of a particular religion if we take a look at countries like Saudi Arabia um people are required to be part of religion the part of part of islam and there are other countries too and like i believe indonesia does that they force people to choose a religion um and they have a list of five you don't think atheists do that you don't think atheists in china force you to uh be atheists you're asking about individual atheists i'm talking about atheism in general okay because i can tell you that when it comes to forcing people uh to be a particular religion or belief system uh nobody's worse than atheists at least historically speaking i mean we can look at china today and we can see how they uh put our putting people you're atheist brothers who are putting people in concentration camps right uh and okay well i think those those concentration camps are real and i mean we could just also look at pol pot we can look at Stalin we can look at so many very much utilizing christianity he was utilizing religion well let me share let me show you something was the next thing you were going to mention pol pot after stalin lenin lenin okay um i i want to show you something here real quick um if i may um so here's an article this is from history.com look what it says over here communism begins where atheism begins do you see that this was a quote from the communist manifesto now see we're kind of in the same boat here where you could look at what the evil that atheists have done in this world and are continually doing um and you can say i that i just agree with that and i would say the same thing if i see the eight see we're in the same boat you have bad ugly apples and so do we but i'm not denying yeah i'm not that's why i i called you out when you're talking about specific atheists just a moment ago because uh yeah the my observation of people in the world is that there are really well here's what here's a quote for Stalin about him being an atheist you i'll just finish um they're just they will um there are really nice people there are really horrible people and then there's the majority in between that it's all in a spectrum and my finding in dealing with different people over the years interacting with different people over the years is that uh it's pretty much the same makeup in both the theist and atheist demographic mm-hmm okay well i guess you know the question you know micheal you know which i've been asking here is how can atheism in any way i mean i mean put aside your personal experience and i understand you've had wonderful experiences with atheism but in terms of really establishing facts how can atheism in any way compete with a good which is slum has brought i mean i'll just give you one example i mean we talked about the rehabilitation in the prison system now islam is a powerful force for rehabilitating prisoners now i have never heard you know of atheism having any impact in in the prison system as they can never happen but how can the atheism in any way can complete compete with islam okay so we have uh prison systems that in many countries that need to be reformed and i've been an advocate for prison reform for quite a long time much longer than than people are aware of here and i see that countries like norway are taking rehabilitation to to an extreme as some people call it um and they're they're having really good results really good successes with it so this kind of rehabilitation is very good um again they weren't inspired by islam they came up with this through different approaches and then i take a look at a study that was done a few years ago in the u.s prison systems if i recall correctly they brought in dogs to be trained by prisoners who were on death row for example or others who are in there for serious crimes and they each had their own cells so they were they were raising these animals these dogs and getting them trained up and it really helped it was a good rehabilitation approach so this there's a lot of different interesting points out there that point toward rehabilitation if i look at if i look at can't respond to that really quick okay and if i look at islamic sharia i see uh inequality um of women being treated as worth their testimony before we go there let's let's just let me answer the questions that that is pro rehabilitation if anything that's yeah pushing further punishment yeah well definitely get your research peer reviewed that's the first thing i will tell you you know when you when you because this is a research which was done here and it's clearly states over here how islam in fact i will just read it again sloughing off a previous life of crime which has been driven by an excessive desire for material gain the elements of conversion to islam helps with rehabilitating prisoners and and we're not talking about one or two but we're talking about several thousands now uh you know again i'm quoting for you research uh you know which was done on this and you're just saying well i don't you're you it's like what you're doing you're looking at this and you're interpreting it in a in a way which suits you best but you don't really have any kind of research or documentation to refute what i'm showing you you know so i think uh if you really have any kind of legitimate claims get it peer reviewed and submit it to these authors who basically wrote this uh research paper i also forgot to mention about finland yeah that's true finland and a lot of the european countries are the happiest places but that's a hodgepodge of different beliefs in there christianity islam uh atheists as well that really doesn't tell us anything about atheism and it is true muslim the muslim world is going through a very rough period also doesn't tell us anything about islam well the study which you did did it of course i'm not but my point here is up till thus far you know at least i'm producing some kind of research you know thus far would you agree with me in terms of really substantiating facts you have not produced anything i mean you've produced sure what you felt was uh was right about atheism and you've produced what how it impacted you but you have not presented any real research today would you agree with that i stated facts it wasn't just feelings okay what fact can you give to support a research paper that you've brought up i'm not familiar with it i'd have to read it and see myself first and before i do to accept it sure okay no problem now there's a and you know i think these are things which i didn't have the opportunity of uh knowing about that research paper ahead of time to be fair and of course about islam uh promoting the muslims are the most happiest people and that also goes to show you this is done in the western world when we're given the same resources and kind of lifestyle as everyone else we perform better so so we perform as a performer the best we i also showed you how they're the number one in terms of charity the people who give the most in charity are muslims and the people who give uh who are most uh most uh available to volunteer are muslims i also shared that for you so when you start adding it up i think you have to agree uh random there's no way atheism can compete with us you can't compete with that can you at least agree with that um i would have to read those statistics and look it up okay sure i'd have to read it okay i know some christians who would vehemently disagree with you on that because they want to be uh top in christianity being quite generous and what i do see is charity and uh volunteering coming from all demographics um and it looks to me like it's more to do with people in general rather than with with muslims now i've encountered muslims who tell me that um their doctrine forbids them to to help non muslims so well that's not true for verse 89 in the crown and you'll see it there as one example so um there's well there are concerns that we will so yeah yeah now well you can if you think that verse statistics okay we'll look at that verse i'd have to read the research that you're providing before i could uh accept that okay yeah and i think that's the problem here i think you have not really looked into islam uh well enough to really uh yeah and it's evidence so they're not only that but there's also the scientific evidence you know so uh which which is there as well and i think that i definitely uh i definitely invite you to do that but the but the alandish claim that islam tells us not to help non muslims is of course uh is of course ridiculous claim it's right there in the korean well okay well okay let's let's use a chapter four verse 89 is that correct yeah i believe it's 89 and they're saying not to not to not to become friends with non muslims with non-believers oh not to become friends don't don't take the non-believers as your friends so so now you interpreted the verse to mean you can never help non muslims is that correct so that is an interpretation that's uh not what i've done okay okay why are you trying to change what i'm saying okay it's um uh charity okay well let me let me let me just settle the matter well um so okay let me just first answer the verse it's not 489 where it says do not take the people of the book as your friends but i'm sure you know they're not helping them i think i think it also says okay well uh let's let me let me just go ahead and show you uh a reference which i think we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll solve we'll resolve the confusion here okay so let's let's go over here and uh let's go to the people of this is the hadith of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam okay so this is called the people of supa they're a group of non-believers they were the guests of islam and and they were basically people who were starving and uh they were they were fasting by by putting stones to their stomach over here so the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam invited them in he fed them even while all the other muslims and everybody else was starving i know this is a lot but i'm just paraphrasing it okay yeah okay and so what's very interesting here is not only did the prophet Muhammad feed and clothe them while all the rest of the people were starving but not only that but he did a wonderful miracle for them in which food was multiplied and he fed them so so this i hope this hadith which hadith is a story from the history of prophet Muhammad will you know will clarify the matter and there's many references like this by the way uh which in fact let me let me get you another reference they're setting a good example there i think that's a great thing however what i was talking about was in the Quran not in the hadiths okay well the Quran so see the hadith explains it a little bit further but i don't think there's any verse in the Quran which says that you cannot do not help non-muslims okay uh there's just simply isn't any anything like that so um so also another one which i also kind of wanted to share with you another reference okay from prophet Muhammad okay which talks about from from from from the non-muslims how to how to treat the non-muslims okay it says over here it's sent by muah he sent them um this is he sent muah to yemen okay he said treat the people with ease don't be hard on them give them glad tidings and don't fill them with aversion meaning hatred and uh love love one another is actually down in the text it says then don't differ meaning don't get into argumentation so i see when i see a cautionary note of don't be hard on them uh that gives me some insight into what the general attitude is why why would it be necessary to tell people to not be hard on others if uh if the religion is so good for uh quality of life you know yeah so basically i think what you're doing here uh i think you're you're trying to ask a question is what i'm doing yeah you're splitting i think i'm kind of splitting here and i think because he's going to be sent as a ruler over over yemen and there were the jews and the christians who were living over there people with ease be sufficient why would he have to have the additional cautionary note of don't be hard on them it's it's as if he's expecting people to be hard on the other people well no i think that it would be a wrong interpretation that's a wrong assumption uh there there's no text there were there's there's no uh there's no justification for that but i think that going back to the original point look you said that islam teaches not to help non-muslims i think that is the misunderstanding of our religion and certainly we cannot accept i mean if islam really really taught that then how do you even begin to explain that muslims are the number one who gave to charity in america in 2020 that they're the that they're the number one people who are most likely to volunteer according to the study so i think you know i mean you these are the facts which i'm presenting to you so i and i want to return the question to you i mean when you look at these i'm going to defend i'm going to defend what i've said here because you're claiming that it's wrong so when i bring up verse 89 in chapter four at a website called karan dot com q u r n dot com uh the english says here they wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved and thus you become all alike so do not take friends from among them unless they migrate in the way of Allah then if they turn away seize them and kill them whenever you find them or wherever you find them and do not take from them a friend or helper can you do me a favor yeah can you read the next verse i'm uh it's not sure i'll do it for you let me let me read the next verse for you okay but but here is where it's saying don't take them to a friend or helper and you know maybe uh they're not saying that you can't help the others but they're you're saying don't take help from others yeah like i said that's well let me first uh ordering people to kill them yeah because they don't believe in Allah like that yeah that's at the page i'm looking at okay oh okay let's let's go yeah so let's let's read the very next verse which is right below it um yeah let's go here 490 okay except those who join a group between you and whom there is a treaty or who come to you uh who come to you with their hearts feeling discomfort in fighting either against you or against their own people if Allah had will He would have given them power over you then they uh then they would have fought you so if they stay away from you do not and do not fight you nor nor offer peace then Allah has not given any authority against them so this is really uh this is really a very amazing verse over here because of what the Quran is stating over here it states like if they are not offering you peace they're not peaceful people they're not staying away from you uh then Allah has given you no authority against them to kill them you see so i just wanted to show you that when you read the verse in his context it is the conditions laid out in the first sentence yeah if they're not okay so let's go to they have to join forces with you or have to accept those who join yeah okay so let's go to let's go to let's go to and so now if you say okay well it's conditional let's go to the next verse the next verse is the famous 491 spot check okay so so so this is going to answer your question here so you will find others who will be secure from you and we were looking at the first uh well let me let me just read this because it'll answer that the next verse okay well we're certainly looking at the second translation here where i was looking at the first translation oh you only do this one yeah that's what we were looking should be consistent you will find you will find others who want to be safe from you and safe from their own people but whenever they are called back to mischief they are plunged into it so now here comes a spot check for the muslim warrior is to perform on the battlefield if they do not stay away from you nor often and do not offer you peace and do not restrain their hands then seize them and kill them wherever you find them we have given you an open authority against them so this is a condition that where muslims are are are are called to attack and kill that if they're not staying away from you they're not offering you peace their hands are not restrained you check all these three okay now you can kill them all right that's a 491 spot check which licensed to kill a license to kill when they're not necessarily trying to kill you interesting well they are trying to kill you if they do not restrain their hands from you nor are they offering you peace that doesn't say anything about them trying to kill you well they're not restraining their hands against you well they're violently trying to attack them attack you i think that's pretty clear right yeah it's pretty harsh to respond with okay that's not clear for you huh not working for me because if they do not stay away from you nor offer you peace nor restrain their hands why is a caron going through giving you all these that does not translate to an attempt to kill though well if they're not okay how can you kill a peace peaceful people how can you kill a peaceful person when the caron clearly says and they do not and if they're not offering you peace and yet you kill them how can you do that it's walk me through the thought process for someone to kill an innocent person in light of this passage walk me through that how did that work the conditions were laid out in the first place on the first part of it now here there it seems almost contradictory but not quite because again not offering you peace is not the same as attempting to kill you well yeah i mean if if someone is attempting to kill you they're not offering you peace right if somebody's attempting to kill you then of course self-defense killing them seems not out of line but if all they're doing is not okay how do you kill an innocent person in light of 490 and 491 how do you kill an innocent person like that walk me through the thought process what uh if what's the reason that they're trying to kill you well you should look you brought up this verse you know you need to explain oh no you brought up 489 i'm sure you in context 491 the 491 spot check if you were to perform this on the battlefield or wherever even in life how can you kill an innocent person in light of this passage i'm sorry say the question again how do you kill an innocent person in light of chapter 4 verse 91 okay so i think there's an issue here with the defining what is innocent innocent of what okay how do you kill an unarmed person well um that depends on what your what technique you're going to use of course so here this is giving people a license to kill when what they're doing it doesn't say they're trying to kill you but it's giving you the okay to kill them yeah based on conditions right sure but nonetheless they're not staying away from you they're coming forward against you nor offer you peace nor offer you peace okay that's not justice and do not restrain their hands so now they're not restraining their hands this is clear meaning they're coming at you they're violently attacking you in some way then sees not necessarily they could just be making they could just be a noisy neighbor who's not giving you peace to stop okay listen randolph listen that certainly is a way an atheist who's in a debate and try hold on let me finish my point okay let me okay an atheist in a debate who's trying to defend his views is going to interpret it like that okay but for the one who sincerely believes in islam they will not interpret it in such a nefarious malicious way we are going to interpret it in the best way possible that's how we're going to understand it will the islamic state do that well of course that's there the islamic state are a group of uh you know they're renegades they're exactly how you would call the communists uh and and and joseph stalin and all the other terrorist atheists as well who have done far worse than the islamic state so anyways going back to my point i want to that that obviates your point of all muslims would interpret it this way not all maybe somewhat well islamic state doesn't you're an example of muslim who does interpret it that way yeah well i have not met anybody who was actually i've not even i even isis does not interpret 491 in any malicious way even they can't do it they have a magazine called debauch it looks really good because it could have much more easily and more clearly just been written if they are attempting to kill you then you have the right to kill them well it sounds like you're trying to say that this is a passage justifying self-defense but the conditions it's giving are a much lesser attack that justifies a greater attack of killing and that that's the problem i'm okay i you still haven't shown me how how you can kill uh an innocent person in light of four in the 491 spot check well that's that's what it permits okay well i am it we're gonna have to agree is if you've got some malicious interpret it doesn't limit it it doesn't limit the the progenitor's action of killing trying if they're now restraining their hands from you so so but anyway i think we we kind of we've kind of um exhausted this topic i mean if you want to have a malicious interpret yeah i mean i have more references on that for you but i want to get back to the subject of the debate look if we you know we need to base our conclusions on facts okay i have given you and i have not even even given you the example how islam was cited you know uh uh there is a source of 50 times the muslim woman is 50 times less likely than the global average to give a fetal to give birth to a fetal alcohol child does atheism have anything that can compete with that in any way the reason the reason for that is obvious because alcohol is prohibited in islam so of course that is going to be the natural result of that yeah well no not necessarily because a lot of belief systems condemn alcohol but they cannot produce the type of impact in the success that islam produces ah but the difference with islam is sharia is put in and used as a legal system and so these things are taken very very seriously that there's no this is where under other regimes it's not so seriously taken no it wasn't the sharia actually which was cited in the study in both studies it was the islamic religion itself sharia was cited in the study okay okay well if you feel that the study isn't accurate just like you felt like the what about the happiness is like i just told you that sharia has nothing to do with that well i mean you can see the prohibits alcohol here's what randolph was saying oh sure i'm sorry so if if you've got a regime that has laws that prohibit alcohol with serious consequences then of course people are not going to drink alcohol very much and countries are not going to be importing very much of it if any at all none of that was in the study by the way the result is going to be that you're not going to have feel alcohol syndrome occurring in those countries because the the access to alcohol is just not there okay have you ever have you ever traveled to a muslim country nope okay so when you go to a muslim country i'll just give one like morocco uh which i think uh yeah actually there's alcohol in morocco there's alcohol in southern arabia alcohol is readily available actually uh but if you look at the study all of what you are saying is nowhere in that study it was inside the islamic religion and they're not just muslims in the islamic world but also in the western world but the question irregardless of the means which you are trying to get in at the question i asked you is how does atheism in any way can compete with it what good can atheism give and don't give personal interpretations of your personal experiences what can we say atheism is bringing is bringing good to the table here well um i think you're assuming that alcohol is bad no that's not my question i'm asking you tell me something good atheism is bringing to the table freedom that's what we're here yeah okay where's the study where's the study that sovereignty freedom okay we all have that freedom muslims have that freedom so you're saying that under so you're saying under islam alcohol is not prohibited pork is not prohibited things like that under under islam i have all the freedom to make the decisions i want to make for myself but you see i get under islam uh you know people are gonna sin of course it gives you guidelines on how to live your life but islam also works in a secular system quite well in fact almost all the studies i've presented to you is from uh secular it was taken in a secular world but the but the question i want to raise to you and i don't want to question you on something um you said that atheism whether you're religious you said that atheism is some kind of catalyst or it brings about freedom do you have any research or any publications that i can look at that cites atheism as causing the cause of freedom do you have anything like that i never said that atheism was a catalyst or cause of freedom okay then what is your claim about atheism freedom is intrinsic in atheism because atheism doesn't impose that's a personal opinion guidelines any rules guidelines or restrictions that's a personal opinion right that's a fact okay but in terms of an impact a positive impact on people's life and humanity i think you would agree that you will not find any research uh for atheism to substantiate that now i understand you are telling me here's how atheism works there's no rules you pretty much do whatever you want and that's fine i'm not i'm not contradicting that but i am really i'm focusing more on the data the research and what has been uh you know studied in this regard by researchers that people are not biased okay and if we were to ask that question in terms of research and real documentation and references there is none for atheism would you agree with that i wouldn't agree that there's none but i'm just not aware of any that are going to talk about a society that has been created purely as atheistic because most of the societies have been created with some kind of religious influence now there are the paraha people who are very happy people in the amazon rainforest they don't have any religion at all they don't even have words in the language for any goddesses or gods or any concept of religion and they seem to be living quite happily in fact there's a get it peer reviewed get it peer reviewed rid of jesus to them and uh they when he described what it is that people are believing they laughed they thought who would believe something like that and by the end of it he came back uh not believing in any gods he was became an atheist himself it was quite an experience for the guy so yeah cc also i wanted to bring up you mentioned one point that well i'm sure christians would have a problem with that or i'm sure i could say the same about other groups of people well the studies which i cited did take christians as well as others into consideration in fact let me show you that real quick here yeah i mean this is not just they're looking at muslims and i will say looking at them in a vacuum but let me just share this with you real quick okay i have seen different studies like this over the years and they seem to come up with different results okay well um let's go over here so they they were talking that it trumps christians buddhists and yogis the studies suggest so basically i want you to also understand it's not like they're just looking at muslims in a in a vacuum you see they are looking at other groups of people so so but look let me show you something here now i think what we can agree i mean in terms of if you look at how islam started a scientific revolution to benefit all of humanity there's a highest level of satisfaction in life most likely to volunteer give charity i don't deny that islam that muslims contributed to to science for example classical optics muslims contributed quite a lot to because uh there was an interest in the stars to make sure that people were wanting to make sure they're oriented correctly when they're praying and all this sort of thing so there was a there was an interest in that and the contributions they made to classical optics were quite high quality quite good and they just you know islam definitely deserves credit for for muslims doing that for sure um there are other places in the world where scientific advancement also occurred it had nothing to do with islam china for example and so it wasn't only islam that can take credit for contributing to science other countries absolutely sure yeah and you mentioned mathematics the concept of zero was one that comes up a lot the chinese had the concept of zero long before islam was even around so so i think we are kind of all in agreement that if you know my expectation that you are going to come tonight and like i've presented five facts which is documented from scientific research of how islam has benefited humanity in such a you know you are not going to be able in any way again based on facts and documentation to compete with islam in this regard i think that has been established tonight you're not going to present any kind of counter references to show the greatness of atheism or something like that relevant though okay but but now my next question for you look when i look at all of this good and you know how do you even put a dollar amount on on having a healthy baby safe from fetal alcohol syndrome why should i leave islam and leave all this good that you are seeing on the screen and become an atheist why would i do that you think i'm asking you to leave islam i'm not okay i'm not asking anybody to leave their religions but why would you if you are here to promote atheism so why would anybody want to leave islam for atheism in light of what i've shared with you well if somebody's finding that islam is too oppressive for them apparently you're not and that's fine but some people do find it quite oppressive and they want to get out of it and so atheism is is a natural place that many of them find themselves when they ex muslims there's there's entire groups of ex muslims all around the world in every country almost it seems there are such groups so it's interesting that people are leaving and once they're leaving the commentary that i hear from a lot of them is that they're very happy to have left now there are other people who've joined islam and say the same thing they're very happy to have joined so you know it's just people in under atheism there's nothing that forbids people from leaving is leaving and joining a religion it's not something that you really join it's just something you just don't believe and that's it whereas with islam if you leave in many places there is there is a death sentence for you they the apostates they're called and i'm sure you know about this and then the pew research group did a study that was quite significant and they found statistically significant and they found that around 65 percent of muslims were wide favored death for apostates now that to me what can i respond to apostasy that but this is a serious issue because they want people to die for leaving the religion that tells me that the religion is pretty oppressive so there's a lot of pressure there on people who who who do you think killed the most apostates around here who are the biggest oppressors of apostasy well let me let me just answer you on apostasy okay okay so first of all apat what islam says about apostasy we can discuss that but for us the 99 percent though you can say the one billion muslims on this world which denomination are those one billion well about 90 percent are sunni 10 percent she i so we're talking 90 percent of the muslims well look we're gonna say for a hundred percent of all muslims well no we because denominations have different viewpoints on this is what we all agree on we disagree about how they're praying okay this is what we all agree on we all agree that the individual muslims like us who are just living their lives and we're the we are not called to kill apostates in any way we can be friends with apostates there's no there's no call according to pew research says that they should die that sounds quite random discrepancy there to me right off let me let me let me finish here real quick okay so we are not called to kill any apostates because this would be an a vigilante act the the rules of whatever apostasy whatever islam says about apostasy and we'll talk about that in a second that's under something called islamic sharia law it would be for me to start implementing the punishments of islamic sharia law would be as foolish as for you to like when you see someone speeding pull them over and say give me 50 bucks because that's a punishment in america you are you are a vigilante at this point so vigilante violence is not or anywhere has no place in islam now i want to also show you that the punishment of death for leaving a religion is far worse than just having to pay 50 let me get to that we're driving too fast okay so the biggest deception and and fraud but i'm not accusing you of that other people who do this is they try to portray muslims as the ones who are the killers of apostate and it is not number one people who persecute apostates are hindus as we are going to see over here from the times of india um and i want to ask you a question this saudi arabia india okay here we see the bajran don a militant hindu group hindu group who has physically assaulted muslims and christians and and the leaders threaten violence against hindus who attend church on christmas that is apostasy hindu is having a huge problem with this i know there's there's there's constantly back and forth yeah indian christian this latest news actually i think this was today yeah oh yeah this was actually i put this in today indian christians fear attack over over jail conversion now what is this the india has enacted these laws which are called anti conversion laws which are nothing more than apostasy laws which are being veiled as being something else and they're murdering and killing christians and muslims and especially hindus for can for for leaving the religion so the number one killers of apostate are hindus uh and and and you can where does it say that sorry where does it say that the hindus are killing apostates of islam indian christians fear attacks over conversions and the articles go over here that um you know basically this article doesn't say anything about people who've left it okay if i want to go you want to you want to go over here this is where they threaten violence against uh those people who attend church on christ what is that hindus are not muslims what's this got to do with the what i now i wanted what i'm showing you is that it's not muslims who are the only one who are killing apostates there are other people who are far worse and the next group but this doesn't address the point i made earlier the next group of people who who who persecute apostates are christians not the american christians so much but more so the russian orthodox church are they are they persecuting islamic apostates they're persecuting other groups of anybody who leaves the russian orthodox church to basically russian orthodox church is not islamic no i'm talking about no no i'm not randolph what i'm talking about is how other people are killing apostates not just muslims over here so i don't yeah but you haven't you haven't cited a single group that's killing islamic apostates yeah no of course there are some people who do kill apostates uh among muslims but these are vigilante these are vigilantes who are doing that and that is something which we do not support in any way but what i'm trying to show you except for well 35 and of course atheists are though probably our second biggest group of people who kill apostates and persecute apostates people who leave who who convert to christianity or islam in china are persecuting so so yeah i'm i'm not going to discuss that because as a policy i don't talk about china because there's too many different viewpoints on it and i don't want to go divert into that it's a big wrap while your atheist brothers and sisters over there uh you know are killing apostate there's a bunch of propaganda going on and it's i i'm not going into that area that's the political area okay um the the the point is you've not actually defeated the pure research study that showed approximately 65 of muslims are in favor of killing apostates oh yeah well that's normal yeah let me explain what i mean by that you agree okay yeah because when they when they actually asked evangelical christians 49 of evangelical christians said that if they had the opportunity they would make islam illegal in america in fact let me look for that statistics i think i disagree with those evangelicals i don't think it should be outlawed so that's from my point if you if you query if you look at statistics from other groups of people they don't fare any better okay uh and we also have seen what is going the other groups of people aren't trying you haven't demonstrated how any of these other groups gold are basically opinions well first of all i haven't even seen that study which you have quoted so you have it just from quite a few years ago but uh it's still i think it's still relevant today um it's well what i can tell you when you look at studies and you look at what christians you look at other groups of people what they believe in muslims really are not that much different you know so um 49 of evangelical christians this is yeah they would they would all yeah 65 of 1 billion people is 650 million people in the world who think it's okay for people who leave islam to be killed to be executed well i have not seen that study but that is not that is not the recipe for the betterment of humanity in my view no okay so let's let's talk apostates yeah they said for us muslim but what does let's talk about what islam teaches now one thing i want to make it obviously teaches it's okay to kill apostates no otherwise 65 percent of the people wouldn't feel that way no what islam teaches is we do not engage in vigilante violence i have no right you know the one billion hold on because they're the law yeah the one billion muslims on the faces planet islam removes any kind of right or any kind of way for us to kill apostates because that would be considered vigilante violence and we do not engage in that we are free islam offers us the freedom to be friends with apostates we can work alongside with them and there's no problem with that so i need to clarify what i said here because i think you might be misunderstanding i was not saying that muslims are going to actually take that action the pure research study was whether they favor execution of a death for apostasy and the answer was yes now it's assumed that they're going to let their government handle it in many cases yeah so you know that's because they're the government that's running sharia and all that but nonetheless okay now let's talk about islamic law the problem is the attitude of thinking it's okay to execute someone because they don't agree with with the religion and they want to leave the religion and they've left it you know that's that's where i have a problem atheism doesn't put this restriction on people but atheists have that opinion that atheists are killing apostates so very well atheists are killing apostates in china sorry i'm talking about atheism here i'm not talking about atheists i'm talking about uh atheism doesn't have anything in it that encourages killing people well that's the whole thing i mean there well if you look at atheism as you said it gives you the freedom to do whatever you want so sure so i mean nobody it is intrinsically a freedom now if we're living in society we need to go by whatever the rules are in that society if i was to move to saudi arabia i would follow its laws i would have to i may not like the laws well it's not because that's a matter of survival in that case here in canadian society it's very different we have a lot more freedom to have freedom of expression freedom of thought freedom of association freedom of conscience freedom of religion we can choose to be part of a religion for as long or as little time as we like sure i like living in this kind of society where we have these laws that don't favor any particular religion whereas if i went to saudi arabia as an atheist i would be taken as a a terrorist under their legal system which is justified under islam and i mean i think we're very as a terrorist just because i don't believe in any gods well but he i mean definitely we can have that discussion but i want to show this one system but what i think the problem is that's islamic influence that's taking away people's freedoms yeah but right off but see what i am seeing is you have moved more towards criticizing islam and that's good we can do that but what i have seen is you have pretty much given up all hope on in any way trying to show atheism in any way is good for humanity so i think that issue has been resolved and you are not going to in any way argue that any further based on documented there's there are limitations imposed there are limitations imposed under islam so we can talk about islam since islam really is the one which has demonstrated itself as the real uh how do you say better as a real cure and the real it has demonstrated itself as the way it can definitely improve society for mankind we know that's the fact now but so that's why i want to i want to before we go into islam i just want to let everybody know what the score is that since islam has demonstrated itself to be that reforming you know force for the betterment of society uh we can now look at that now you're quoting statistics let me quote this one for you okay this is basically uh nine in ten us muslims are proud to be americans it says over here it says over here compared with a general public muslims are more are more likely to say targeting killing civilians is never justifiable okay so there's if you want to quote statistics and that was actually from puf pu forum there's my there's my reference over there so so again you know let's not just pick one statistics let's let's look at all we know that they're the number one in terms of giving charity giving donations uh giving i'm sorry uh and get as well as volunteering and so there's many good statistics about muslims so see i think really you know i'm going to say that i think that there are many um many fine qualities good things that can come from islam but i also am willing to say hey look there are bad things about it too and that's where the problems lie and i think islam needs to be reformed i think okay one bad thing you called his apostasy well first of all well first friend 489 is another one and then there's more stuff 489 is only bad if you hold this malicious nefarious interpretation of the text which i have actually never seen anybody do yeah i mean look it is bad for an eight-ditch who's in the middle of a debate and he's trying to find faults with a quran 489 look looks horrible but to the rest of the islamic world who can look at that they can see the 491 spot check and i mean if you any kind of fair charitable reading of the text is going to look at that and say i'm sorry you are not going to be able to hurt or kill no what i'm saying it isn't people with that what i'm saying is there are many beautiful things in the quran but there are also many horrible things and i consider that to be one of the horrible things okay let me now i'll give you another example look we we try to go through the verse i try to explain to you 489 if you take it in context it's not verse 91 the problems with the spot check in 491 okay so so if you look at that if you look at the history of muhammad okay never there's actually many battles which have taken place okay never will you find a single person who is innocent who was killed as a result of his did having a different religion who was killed in islam because of that so so now so let muhammad be the way the person the right person to interpret the quran so when we look at that never has there been a peaceful tribe or a tribe fought and and killed just because they had a different religion that simply has never existed in islam one of the different denominations under islam yeah muhammad never killed or hurt anybody wow this is a different denomination denomination i don't think i don't think muhammad started multiple denominations i think those came later so let's talk about that let's talk about that and we want to go back to apostasy well i'm seeing many terrible things so i hope that you will interpret 489 the verse you claim to have a problem as you interpret it with a life i do have a problem with that that's not just okay i'm stating a fact okay i hope you'll interpret it in light of the teachings of prophet muhammad and now you did quote you did mention something about apostasy okay so there is a misunderstanding in islam that about islam that basically islam demands the killing of all apostates and that actually is not true first of all muhammad himself never killed any apostates many apostates came to him or it was presented to him and he forgave them and and basically let them go away so in islam i'm sorry what's that that's good to hear yeah so basically in islam you know there is a great deal of leniency towards apostates and so there is not a hard and fast rule which says of all apostates must die i'll agree with you on this yeah i'll agree and i'll explain why it's actually more charitable than the bible in the bible they when they come across people who don't believe the order is just to kill them at least with islam under 489 the the non-believer has the chance to become a believer first so you're saying 489 is telling you to kill people because they're of a different religion if they don't believe that that is what it says what it says give them a chance basically it looks to me like it says give them a chance to convert first and if they still don't if they still don't see the way of Allah then sees them and kill them okay so can you i would very much like for just some person to corroborate what you are saying because to be in a sense like i want you to find one person who can look at chapter 489 90 and 91 and who can come to that conclusion that is teaching to show me yeah one person it's real easy yeah i would like to see that because i don't know i'll ask you okay i'm gonna answer your question one person is really easy matt bill hunty he talked about this with a caller and the caller i heard that yeah so so matt bill hunty came to the same conclusion it's written right there yeah so basically there are ex-muslims i've talked to who say that that's generally how they see it and it's interpreted in different ways but that's generally the idea and there's basically and some of them are very right set against it of course so the caller as i recall was saying uh finally they went back and forth and he finally said okay at what time and so it's as if that only applies at a certain time period so i heard that i did hear that tape and so basically remember this one yeah so it's good we both so the mistake of matt provided i i provided that one person you asked for oh yeah sure so if you look at 489 you take a pair of scissors you cut it out and you just paste it right there 489 and yes absolutely and that's what matt bill hunty did he didn't even look at 490 my quote my challenge to you is look at verse 89 look at verse 90 and look at 91 and tell me who is going to be able to come to that conclusion here today and i pointed out the problems that i have with them and especially 491 is it's saying it's not saying if they're trying to kill you kill them it's saying if they're doing a bunch of things that could annoy you kill them if the Quran says if they're annoying you kill them then the Quran is wrong but i don't think that's what the Quran says i agree with you okay so let's look at 491 really quick again let's see if this is one more time with you yeah where does it say anything that annoyance was a was a criteria well these things seem to me kind of annoying so okay rando not swear where does it say annoyance is a criteria i'm calling i'm characterizing these three things okay no can you at least admit that's not what the text says do you want me to explain why i look at these as in the category of annoying it says so if they do not stay away from you okay so i could remember being an elementary school and some kid would not stay away this is on the context of a battlefield for a while rando this is on the context of a battlefield you know that right okay okay so keep going and they do not offer peace to you okay so no peace offering fine they might say i'm your enemy but they're not saying i'm going to kill you they're just saying i disagree and they do not restrain their hands okay so they're waving their hands well no and they do not offer you peace that doesn't necessarily mean that they're actually trying to kill you they may be just trying to knock you down so they can get past somewhere you're blocking the context isn't clear here and it says just kill them it's very black and white so these three but how do you interpret this how do you interpret this and they do not restrain their hands how do you interpret that that doesn't mean they're trying to kill you they could just be they're trying to knock you that's exactly what it means just be hang on hang on they could just be trying to push you out of the way let's let's okay so so let me give you another verse which i hope hopefully you're not you can't disagree with me on this because what i'm saying no those first three now those first three annoyances i'll just call them annoyances could easily be replaced with how do you how do you okay i want to see do your interpretation job on this one let me finish this please they said if that was simply to say if they are trying to kill you then kill them i would say okay yeah that makes sense that's reasonable but why list those three annoyances instead of just saying outright what you're saying it's trying to say because that's a great spot check on the battlefield so you're saying are they like for example you can on the battlefield you if they're not offering you peace what that means is that they're basically coming to attack you they're in no peaceful position they're not restraining their hands that when they look that phrase restraining their hands what that means is basically they're they're you know you know you know aggressive posture to attack to hurt you i do something you see so no no no do your interpretation job on this one you say that any of the body okay how do you interpret nine six how do you interpret this and if any of the you could be blocking their path and they're just forcefully pushing you out of the way okay well let's let's do that would be assault but that's not that's not attempt to kill okay how do you interpret this one if any of the this is chapter nine verse six if any of the polytheists ask for your protection granted to them so they may hear the word of god and escort them to a place of safety for they are people who have no knowledge you are supposed to escort them to a place of safety how do you interpret that okay that part of it i think sounds nice except for the last characterization says for they are people who have no knowledge i would say polytheists have knowledge of their deities right off the bat so that statement is false there's a problem there with that one here it's it's a put down to people just because they believe in multiple deities and i disagree with that okay so i know polytheists who are actually quite smart and have a lot of knowledge okay so at least we can agree that basically when people this is again on the battlefield they're the enemy is coming and asking for protection yeah okay i'm sorry what's that but the part before this last characterization seems nice i think that's a good approach okay okay good so and as i said you know i have a problem with the put down at the end i think that is disgusting and it's discriminatory certainly you have your being discriminatory is not a foundation for building a better society a better better for humankind yeah so i think the point which is being made over here for they have for their people who have no knowledge what's being meant over here well the reason whole reason why they're fighting you is because they're ignorant if they would know about Islam they wouldn't be fighting you if they would know about the peaceful gesture that Islam brings they wouldn't be fighting you they're obviously ignorant okay i think that's sounds arrogant to me and that's a put down and that's saying that they are lesser they are worse off and that that is a problem because that is sowing the seeds for discrimination against polytheists and under under under an atheistic under an atheistic society we don't we wouldn't have this kind of discrimination uh coming from any kind of religious doctrine and hopefully we wouldn't have it in the laws if people are using John Rawls theory of justice the veil of ignorance to try to form really good laws so you know this of course boils down to people and how they interpret things and the same thing happens with Islam and we've got the pure pure research group talking about 65 see that it's okay to kill apostates for leaving Islam yeah and the same and that's a problem for atheists as well this isn't and Hindus are okay so now the difference is yeah difference is atheism's not saying that polytheists are ignorant Islam is and you just show me the verse where it is can i can i show you how Muhammad can i show you how Muhammad himself interpreted 481 and that's what i wanted that's what i you know of course we can all make our interpretations of scripture are you are you saying that are you are you about to show me that the Koran has a mistake in it no i'm showing how Muhammad interprets no no no no no if if you're going to say that it's not being discriminatory toward polytheists then what you are in effect going to be doing is and you won't be able to avoid this is saying that the Koran is mistaken there no no well no that's exactly no i'm not i'm not going anywhere near there i just wanted to show you how the prophet Muhammad uh basically interpreted a chapter four verse nine i'm showing the 491 spot check uh how Muhammad yeah because that's exactly the spot check you gotta do on the battlefield yeah so it says over here uh so this is a story i'm just going to paraphrase it over here okay there's a man who came and he lifted up a sword to kill prophet Muhammad okay then the sword you know you could call it miraculously fell out of his hand and came into the hand of Muhammad and then he raised it but said who's going to protect you from me you know and so and so then and so just going over very quickly he said who will protect you from me as soon as he said that the sword fell down from his hand and Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam catching the sword asked him who will protect you from me he will say please forgive me okay the messenger said on the condition that you testify that there's none worthy of worship but Allah i'm his messenger now look at the look at the texture it says no which is pretty now that's a pretty brave guy if i was there even a lot of what's that okay yeah sure sure just to get away but this guy was really adamant he says no but i promise i promise you that i shall not fight against you nor nor shall i be with those people who fight with you the prophet let him go this is a 491 spot check because it's 491 spot check clearly says if they're offering you peace let him go and he went back to his people and said i have come to you from one who's the best of the mankind referring to prophet Muhammad so what i want you to do is interpret 491 the way Muhammad interpreted and i think then you will see that Islam the Quran is a book of peace and issue with issues like apostasy we are not commanded to do that i don't i don't take issue with that story in in its sense saying that Muhammad interpreted that way i what i don't understand is why you're interpreting those three annoyances as i call them to be uh an attempt of killing i don't i'm saying it's not necessarily that that's the case and that's what we're having a problem and i'm saying that that's not justice that is yeah justice because uh you're it's giving people permission to kill people who are just annoying them yeah so so i think you what what's happening here you're annoying but it's annoying well i think what's happening here is you're having your private interpretation of scripture and that's fine we you can have your interpretation and i'm not going to fight you on that so who's interpretation is the correct one yeah well like i said if 99 why is yours better than mine yeah like i said 99.999 percent of people who are going to read 489 90 91 will not come to that conclusion uh so i'm pretty confident in that why is your interpretation better than mine yeah we were look i think we've already exhausted 4989 90 91 i want to get back to really i think the real subject of this debate and i think it really is how Islam and atheism benefits humanity now i've cited five reasons you know and all of them were documented and and and so i think we all agree that atheism based on the documentation not your personal experiences randall but if we look at atheism based upon documentation it offers nothing for mankind would you agree on that well atheism isn't uh necessary based on documentation well atheism isn't necessary well it's it means that you don't believe in deities that's it that's all there is to it whereas islam has a whole doctrine it has the sharia system it has all these different things that may it aims to be a political system as well as a legal system and it carries various instances of injustice in it many well let's now i'm asking you of these so you're very atheism atheism is neutral whereas islam is uh bringing some good things and some really bad things and because of the bad things that's why i say that it's better to be neutral so that we can build our own system from scratch right but as far as you know what is based upon documentation i mean the question i think you veered off on trying to talk about how bad islam is but the really the question which i think you kind of well you've tried to talk about how bad atheism is and you haven't been able to show that you know what i'm saying it would know that really the subject of tonight's debate is what does atheism and islam offer mankind and if we look at atheism and i think you're conceding there is no real benefit that atheism based on research verified research that atheism can offer mankind there just isn't anything like that you're adding their criteria to this i'm looking at the principles behind all this and so you know if you want to add that criteria i never agreed to add the criteria of of studies that uh that agree with all of this why shouldn't we base our views on facts and what has been researched and i'm not saying we shouldn't base it on facts but this is a question of principle and so i'm looking at the principles and so the facts are definitely helpful for understanding the principles i don't deny that but the principles are atheism is intrinsically freedom whereas islam is intrinsically about submission and conforming to the standard that islam provides and there are questions and concerns about certain aspects of islam that i have think make it not the most ideal candidate for being the best for humankind and i highlighted some of those yeah so let's okay so you've highlighted some things about islam which you felt was not good for mankind but would you say a little bit longer then we shortly have to go into qna sure sure and but would you say that it overrides all the good which i have presented to you in the term that started a scientific revolution that had helped children to start all of science that started i already clarified it only you can't take credit for all of science with that no not all science i'm not saying that it started a scientific revolution so you're saying that in the community for sure yeah yeah the negative things you see about islam uh overrides all of the good which it brings is that what you're claiming i think that islam brings on a lot of bad things to society i really do well based on evidence and do you have any evidence for what you're saying oh look look at all the women who've been trying to leave islam and get acid poured on their face or other kinds of okay that's not a slam okay you are when we talk about evidence i'm talking about documented science facts which we can read in peer review journals these are muslims who are basing their decisions on what they understand the principles of islam to be and what people around them consider that to be normal as well which is a problem and the underlying problem with a religion any religion is the demand for conformity and i'm more on the pro-freedom side here and islam demands conformity it demands submission and things like that if i take a look at how women are treated they get mistreated in testimony and inheritance they're only getting 50 percent of what the man gets just because of their sex in many islamic societies women are severely restricted to wear clothing that is basically hides them so that you can only see their eyes for example and maybe they respond to some of that okay and so i'm not saying all societies do that but many of them do and this is a problem and this is all being claimed to be done in the name of islam because islam requires it and i have a big problem with that because that again is a restriction on people's freedoms well first of all the asset throwing thing that nowhere does islam in any way endorse throwing acids in people's face i can accept that yeah okay so that has nothing to do with islam and in terms of the clothes the restriction there was a punishment well i don't know that's absolute insanity in the eyes of people that are mentally ill people i don't agree with that i think it's wrong i think it's it's immoral and ethical i think it's cruel yeah and it's a human rights violation that's a mental that's mental illness okay that's what it is or it's just hatred not necessarily don't don't don't associate people who are mentally ill with that because there are lots of people with mental illnesses who are not violent who are not bad people there there's there's a whole spectrum of mental illness out there that ranges just as much as people without mental illnesses from good to bad yeah and also you know in terms of a lot of the atheism doesn't inform me but atheism doesn't tell me to discriminate against people and call them mentally ill but it also doesn't do anything for mankind and i think that's also pretty clear doesn't respect people so this way it has no positive impact for mankind i think that is what really what we are all settling here on what happened with the Charlie Hebdo massacre they were drawing pictures of Muhammad and Muslims all over the world many Muslims were up in arms about this they were public speakers or Muslim scholars who are upset about this and people were calling for the the death of anybody who draws a picture of Muhammad and most of the media was scared because there were death threats coming in why why do people have this mentality if if Islam is supposed to be so good for society yeah as i said from a even from a scholarly point of view this is ridiculous vigilante violence like Islam completely condemns all of this kind of Charlie Hebdo massacres and all these things which are taking place so of course look the problem which what you're saying there are so many bad examples of atheists as well as i've shown you in china which you don't want to talk about for Islam you got pole pot you've got you've got Lenin you've got many horrible evil ugly atheists in this world too so if you want to just pick on the Muslim ugly people that's hypocrisy because i think it's okay to kill people who've left the religion well i've now i've never seen that study and also i will also show you no no okay i've not only have i not seen that but i will also tell you that almost all the Muslims will agree with what i have said that Islam offers a great deal of leniency towards apostates they'll all agree that that we have no business killing apostates okay because there are apostates everywhere you don't see them dropping like flies of course not the vast majority of Muslims agree it is not our job to kill any apostates we do not engage in vigilante violence okay could you agree that removing or rewriting section 489 and the others from the Koran would be a good step no the 489 but the whole world should be embracing i mean that's a wonderful spot check on the battlefield it specifically says that we give you and if they're not offering you peace we give you no authority against them for and you know what is really this 489 to 91 this is one of the evidence is that this is a book from god because that type of advanced thinking did not exist 1400 years ago to provide a spot check i don't consider that to be advanced i do i think that it's i think it clearly defines what an innocent civilian is it clearly if a person who wants to engage in wanton killing and who wants to kill people just because they're disbelievers or something like that they would never they would never author a 491 spot check and go into detail and say look if they're not offering you peace if they're not restraining their hands okay then you can kill them all right a madman or a type of sadistic killer would never go into this type of detail that is a license to kill and for for for an infraction that is not necessarily okay okay well i have a problem with because yeah that is an unequal footing it does not fit we already covered this earlier we already covered it okay well i think we're ready to go to question answers right yeah okay yeah and want to say folks let's proceed with a smile first yeah yeah thank you dear and want to let you know folks we are absolutely pumped for the modern day debate con conference that i had mentioned earlier in the stream one of the debates of which is at the bottom right of your screen tickets are going on sale during this stream so keep an eye on the live chat we will be putting a link for the ticket if you want to come and watch it in person in dallas texas it's going to be amazing and we are excited to get to meet you if you happen to make it in person and so keep an eye out in the live chat as that'll be out in just a moment but i'm going to jump into the q&a first thanks so for your questions folks we've got a lot of them i'm going to try to move fast and so thanks so much from mango tea says nadir none is better humanity is in a state of illusion whereby people have misinterpreted the perception of reality to succeed with reality humans must ignore all thoughts and abide by natural laws i hope you know what that means i don't know what that means well you know all of this is opinions you know people can have their opinions but what the argument which i've presented tonight what when we talk about what's good for humanity i have presented five facts which is based upon science which is based upon documented research and so i think what's happening is you know i i can't change people's opinions and i think that is something i would like for that person to consider you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from quick lemon says for nadir if you had to choose i think it's a sincere question so i'm going to read it it's not meant to troll i think that they i mean you can you can some maybe maybe would say it's a softball they say for nadir if you had to choose between a nine-year-old muslim girl or a 25 year old atheist girl to mary who would you choose no 25 year old atheist simple next up mango tea and it says nadir as it i'm just teasing the deer as an x muslim i see the effects of islam and particularly the capacity of islam has to affect one's behavior and motivation towards life is it true islam makes you lethargic is islam feminine well you know the problem is i think a lot of these people they claim well i've seen what islam brings what it really is they've been influenced by this anti islamic propaganda and for that person i have already refuted him with facts and and and so he needs to confront uh the facts which i have presented to him like for example i've shown that muslims have the highest level of satisfaction of life satisfaction that far and the feeling of oneness that trumps christians buddhists and yogis i have refuted that person in which he's ignoring all which i'm presenting i have also shown that they are the number one people in terms of giving to charity the most likely to volunteer so when people say islam influences people in a bad way that's simply not what the facts support you gotta say it sorry i'd like to quickly follow up i'd say it influences in good and bad ways and i have big complaints about the bad ways the one another example would be circumcision which is designed to reduce the pleasure sensations and under islam there are muslims who are circumcising little girls and that to me is a human rights violation i know nadeer probably wants to follow up something on that go ahead i object to that practice as well yeah well i did very very bad that's half the population affected by that of the muslim demographic yeah and circumcision is not something condemned by them by the medical scientific community you can have your personal opinions about it uh but i don't think that something was from from a scientific point of view is considered a bad you got this one coming in from do appreciate your question mango tea says or actually sunflower says randolph how have you read the lord of the flies by william golding do you think modern humans would naturally develop empathetic and civil societies if put in similar situations sorry what was the name of the book i coughed and didn't miss the name of it the lord of the flies by william golding okay yeah that's uh that's quite a long long time ago i'd have to reread it it's uh it's a very well written book though um and they they do highlight a lot of uh important things about humanity there um i i think uh i'm not able to answer that one unfortunately sorry i'll have to reread it first no problem mango tea says nadeer is it true islam is a feminine religion islam promotes women excessively i see islamic families and how the wife would have dominion over the husband the boys end up becoming feminized i don't think there's any facts to support that no you got it grimlock says happiness is not a measurement of truth is living a lie better just because it makes you happier uh i i think that they're uh thinking that you're trying to say that because islam makes you happy that it's true they say what of the people believe i think they're trying to say false do you think they'd be happier living a lie yeah so that's uh that's that's a consequence fallacy that something is true just because the consequences uh are good and and and so tonight's debate is not why islam is true if that was a debate topic i would have presented the scientific and prophetic evidence to support why Muhammad is a true prophet now what i've presented you the impact islam has upon mankind that is part of the evidence but that is not the evidence alone uh which we would we which we would state the prophethood of Muhammad in fact i would very much like to invite richard that if he gets an opportunity i would like for you to participate in the scientific uh why in the debate regarding why the Quran is a scientific miracle and uh you mean Randolph i'm sorry what did i call you richard i'm sorry Randolph i just want to make sure you're actually you're asking me it's uh it happens all the time don't worry about it it's okay sorry about that yeah um it's okay it's okay but yeah i'd like for you to participate in that debate and look at it as scientific evidence is for some you've seen one about how islam uh the you know fetal alcohol syndrome Muslim women who give birth to fetal alcohol 50 times less likely to give birth to a fetal alcohol child if we do a debate on that i would like to uh team up with somebody and you can too so it could be a two two against two two with two yeah that's fine that's fine yeah yeah you got it and thank you very much for your question what the legend rives says all countries had a religious moral system taught by their ancestors they also last way longer than atheist countries an original teacher is proven well the interesting thing about religions is that they require maintenance because there's a whole belief system and so there needs to be reassurances there needs to be maintenance of the foundations and society and so a society that is religious centric will have to make sure they put things in place to maintain that and ensure that the religionist it continues to thrive so because there's different rules and things that people can veer off from what atheism there's nothing that you can veer off from other than joining a religion and that's it and that you're not really veering off it's just you're not restricted in any way so yeah i can see that when there's a system put in place of ongoing maintenance that indeed it makes sense that something like that would last longer you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from mark reads as Nadir the study concluded that quote muslims were most likely to believe that they were connected to something larger than themselves unquote why is this better for humankind why are you misrepresenting it uh i i don't think he had a proper understanding of the study which i quoted i actually quoted many um and so i think he needs to basically go back and look at my reference read it carefully uh and i don't think i think that'll answer his question mark read also says nadir does and nisa 34 say that if your wife refuses to obey then you may beat them how is this good for humankind yeah so many people have misinterpreted this verse to mean that this refers to domestic violence but if you look at other verses look around it it talks about what you know what this so-called beating is and that is basically with a bundle of grass and i believe that's chapter 38 verse 51 let me look it up for you so uh it is not in any way to be interpreted in terms of domestic violence actually domestic violence is is clearly condemned in islam the concept of beating us out when obviously there's not consent for the beating uh it's not a bd sm scenario for example um to me is abhorrent so i that's one of the things that i object to go ahead nadir i'm sure because it's your question you probably want to respond to that too well if we're talking about with a bundle of grass okay uh i don't consider that to be quite abhorrent as you were saying but uh but for sure we all agree that it's it's undeniable that domestic violence is clearly condemned in islam there's no doubt about it you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from benjamin is it iota iota says that's not exactly what it says read the arabic okay we can read the arabic what what exactly is the point here if they didn't mention where they were referring to though so that was earlier in the debate i remember that but i don't know so benjamin you have to let me know what passage you were referring to but mango tea says nadir charity is stupid when you give too much everybody ends up being poor i don't think i need to respond to that i islam certainly doesn't tell people to go overboard like that we respond with humor that's what i suggest nagnuni says question for nadir is islamic slavery good or bad for humankind and would you be my slave under islamic rules yeah so basically uh the issue on one of the biggest misconceptions is that people think islam endorses slavery no it does not islam condemns slavery and what i mean by that is judaeo christian slavery the slavery which you are all familiar with is judaeo christian slavery which has brutalized and brought so much misery and suffering to the world and that's actually endorsed by the bible but islam brings a very different version of slavery one in which all of the harshness all the problems which we see in slavery is systematically removed so that is the only version of slavery which it endorses for example it it condemns beating a slave it tells people that you should educate your slave and then set him free and then it says if you whatever clothes you wear the slave master wears your slave has to wear the same clothes it says he will eat the same food you eat so if you're eating lobster and shrimp or lobster and steak guess what your slave is eating lobster and steak and you never overwork him so if he's working out there in the hard field it says if you overwork him you better go out there and help him so all of the miseries and suffering and problems that are with slavery muhammad has removed all of them and it has won the recognition of the academic community as well and i hope one day we can have a debate on that on slavery in islam and christianity because once again that will prove that islam is a true religion i just have to push back on that because my understanding is that slavery is okay according to sharia and islam never abolished it not in the quran or the hadiths uh yemen still has grandfathered slavery laws saudi arabia abolished it but then they diverted from things a little bit and added a migrant workers law called the kaphala i'm not saying right guarantee thank you thank you for correcting me requires a sponsor to take control of the person's rights the sponsor holds their passport and other documents that would allow them to get out of the country if they wanted to leave and the whole practice effectively amounts to indentured servitude so muhammad also owns slaves and that's how that's justified that's my understanding okay and as i have said islam completely redefined with slavery in terms of kaphala and all those practical examples that you are presenting islam is in condemnation with every version of slavery except what is endorsed in our scriptures and what i have presented to you is something so good that it can be argued it's actually better than freedom because in freedom you don't get the right to ed to be educated in islamic slavery prophet muhammad said the one who educates a slave girl and then frees her he will get a double reward so when we talk about islam and slavery we must say in accordance with what is written in our scripture not that kaphala stuff because islam because islam does not recognize any version of slavery other than what's in its books and when we look at that it is a very merciful tolerant version of slavery slavery is not a gift i want one last response in a dear yeah well okay so here so let's let's let's let's talk about that why was there even why didn't it just come out and abolish slavery well it is too good question yeah yeah that is a question a lot of people ask and there's a very simple answer and that is to avert the humanitarian catastrophe which will ensue shortly after as we have seen all throughout the western world let me just give you one example in brazil they abruptly ended slavery without any kind of uh how should you say infrastructure to receive all those millions of free slaves what happened they built their homes into the into the mountaintops of these places called the favelas the favelas are now ridden with crime and violence cyclical crime cyclical violence in one year alone 64 000 people were murdered in these favelas this is what happens when there was a sudden release of men coming from slavery into freedom without any infrastructure to receive them islam puts the right infrastructure so that when they when they leave they're leaving towards something you go to this one coming in from do appreciate it grimlock says wonderful if the people you are attempting to conquer defend themselves then you can kill them perfect logic no moral atrocities there i think they're being sarcastic that does speak to part of my objection to uh 489 391 and i think nadir probably has some feedback to that as well since it sounds like a comment for both of us yeah so basically first of all islam never teaches to attack peaceful people okay because remember the text said if they're not offering you peace nor restraining their hands so so it's since these are people who are offering you peace they're in no way can you attack them and so in fact i will give you an example of one of the caravan caravan rates and i'll give that as as an example they're the basically them the meccan arab they have attacked the muslims in in many ways and so in retaliation they decided to basically attack their caravans so they basically came out to in fact let me share my my desktop over here because that was so i can show you the reference which i'm which i'm referring to here uh this is inside syria ibn ishaq and so here we see the 491 spot check being put into into action here interpreted in light of how muhammad interpreted so this is from syria ibn ishaq so it says over here um that i will war against them that war against you and i'll be at peace with those who are at peace with you but that's not the reference i actually wanted to give you uh this is a reference right over here okay it says over here that that basically when muhammad set out to attack a group of in retaliation for being attacked by a group of idol worshipers it says over here that um this is from this is from the book syria ibn ishaq it says that uh they sent somebody to go make peace with muhammad look what muhammad's response was just go and attack and kill them it says he returned to medina without meeting war and remain there for the rest of suffer so when people this is the 491 spot check in action here when people don't want to fight they're saying hey listen let's have some peace we don't want to be involved in this what does the text say he returned to medina without meeting war so that's why we say slobby rose in a piece go ahead you mean me or randolph whoever thank you for your question benjamin iota says stop reading these modern translations read arabic nadir and then says again read the arabic stop letting him get away with that i think him is supposed to be random i don't know what's yeah okay so i guess that's i'll answer that um so the problem here is when these uh islam bachelors get refuted uh they'll say oh but you don't know the arabic you don't know the arabic you know and and i do want to debate this in arabic i'm ready to we can look at the arabic text and i don't think it's kind of say anything different i think it's getting actually further enforced all my arguments a random i think that's what they're saying i interpreted it that they were saying like nadir pull out the big guns you read it in arabic bring them where are these big guns if there are some Arabs who want to debate this in arabic we can do that now look at the text in arabic i will say this is where islam does have an advantage over christianity is that the arabic texts are available whereas my understanding with christianity the original texts are not available there's there's a lot of ideas on what should be the original text but the very original ones apparently aren't available um as far as saying during a debate we're debating in english here so nadir and i are using english references and things like that it all makes sense because that's the way it's going this convention being used um if uh and i would say that if a religion can't be properly converted to a different language then there's a serious problem with yeah how that's being practiced and nadir's agreeing with me on this i'm not surprised um the um the the the the tactic of saying go to the original texts sounds like a little bit of a cop out to me it always has and it's kind of a diversion um because you know yeah i'd have to learn arabic i don't know arabic it's a wild goose chase even if we went to the arabic yeah outcome will not be any different yeah wild goose chase there we go thank you and james please check the private chat you got it one moment this one coming in from sunflowers is nadir do you condemn the perpetrators of the charlie hebdo massacre absolutely these are criminals these are vigilantes these are people who have nothing to do with islam or islamic law not just me but almost all the islamic scholar at least the one that i've seen have completely condemned that you got it and this one coming in from mango tea says islam does make you happy if you are living in a civilized society but true happiness comes from being in nature and aligning yourself with reality how do you like them apples and nadir well that's that may be one way for a lot of people to to get happiness but but what i wanted to kind of demonstrate is is that when we talk about how islam impacts and humanity for the better you know it has actually been documented and has been researched and not just you know in terms of also having lowering the rate of fetal alcohol children down to 50 times less likely so there's many good things about which which about islam which i think that person should consider you got it yeah i i uh objected to the prohibition argument there because if you prohibit something a substance then of course there's going to be a lot less abuse of it a lot less misuse of it because there's going to be less of it available so i do think that's a bit of a misnomer on nadir's part and i just want to say i found it wonderful that james picked apples earlier but nadir you probably have something to say to what i just said yeah well yeah i mean there is really no islamic country which has successfully or in any way prohibits alcohol you can get beer and wine in every Islamic country okay so this is an impact there there's something great about islam which convinces the individual to stay away from these drinks and i think that is that is the impact it's having upon people which has really made a a positive impact on society you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from azean says 491 i assume sir but i don't know so you can tell me you correct me if i'm wrong do you just say 49 what we were talking about earlier i think 49 yeah 491 yeah says if someone hits you can you kill them if someone hits you can you kill them no of course not well you know 49 the 49 ones the 491 spot check is a spot check which was done on the battlefield this is not something like for example me and you just walking down the street okay so uh that the context has to be put into place and again you know i've shown you from syria ibn ishak that even when on the battlefield when the enemy doesn't want to fight what did Muhammad do he returned back to medina because the main thrust here in the Quran in the hadith and the syria for people who are peaceful there's no war to be made against them we are friends with all peaceful people you've got it and my answer to that my answer to that is yes 491 basically says that it's what i've been arguing so that is how it looks otherwise it would be saying if they're trying to kill you you can kill them it's not saying that so it is that's what i called the three anoints is the first three examples and to limit the scope to the battlefield i think is irrelevant because justice should be applicable everywhere including in in war that's why we have war treaties and things like that and rules about how to treat people who are prisoners of war and whatnot so we need to make sure that the justice is not made an exception to anywhere because if it is then it falls apart you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from sunflower says nadir do you condemn no we got that one sorry a zion says if 60 year old or alcohol is good for you nadir says science no actually the position of science uh regarding alcohol is that true there is some good in it but the harm far outweighs any good in alcohol so if you're thinking well okay i'm just going to drink some alcohol for my heart's sake or something like that this is unscientific in fact now the latest research actually shows that alcohol causes brain damage so uh no there's the bad outweighs any good of alcohol i can think of a counter real quick um back in the times before we had anesthetic people would get drunk before getting a tooth extracted because it would be a lot less painful i think most of those people would argue that alcohol is a very good thing in those circumstances you and thank you very much this one coming in actually i want to give you the last word on that one is uh nadir given that uh it was for you please yeah so now we're talking about for medicinal uses let's say it's been really proven uh to be true then islam is not against using pork byproducts or alcohol and medicine in fact i used alcoholic uh mouthwash when i got my teeth cleaned that was a prescription mouthwash i had to use that alcohol on it so if it's something which is from legitimate purpose and islam definitely allows that you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from mark reads as nadir why do you think it is fair to show quote unquote daily mail news articles then demand peer reviewed papers they aren't peer reviewed papers either at daily mail i just want to point out before you start nadir i did mention it was a daily news article and i said that was okay uh for the purposes of this debate but go ahead nadir yeah they were actually quoting a study i could i could be very easily linked straight to the study but the daily mail article which is pretty reputable uh you know they do pretty reputable journalism and they're pretty you know world-renowned i thought that was good to provide the summary the headline of the research but if you look at the reference which i've actually presented you look at that article you will see that the peer reviewed study to be linked in there and i can i can present that to you if you like you got it and want to mention folks we just put out the link to grab tickets for the first ever modern day debate debate con conference in dallas on january 15th it's linked at the top of the chat folks it is going to be a blast and we hope to see you there as we have early bird tickets right now and man it is a deal for sure folks it is significantly cheaper if you sign up grab a ticket now and want to let you know this is so important folks 100 percent i want to emphasize this because some people are like oh james uh you know oh you're selling tickets hey are you looking to raise some funds for your own vacation no no no no 100 percent of the funds that coming through the tickets as well as through the crowdfund are going to be devoted to debate con whether it be this conference or if we happen to have a surplus we don't know we're hoping we just break even but if we have a surplus 100 of that surplus and funds will be used for the next conference so in other words booking flights for speakers covering their hotel nights covering the venue cost because it does cost a lot to do this kind of in person event and so like i said 100 of it is going back into the conference none of it is going into my pocket and so if you buy a ticket you can know that it's going strictly to debate con happening so with that jumping back in for the next question thank you very much asian says there is no hell there is no eternal punishment don't be afraid of death please stop apostasy laws and allow atheists to speak openly against god i have a feeling that's for you nadir well as the atheists themselves in china and other places who are killing apostates who are persecuting apostates so this advice should first go to them hindus are actually the most people who actually persecute apostates there's apostasy laws which are called anti-conversion laws which are nothing more than apostate the apostasy laws veiled it's it's the orthodox christ church in russia which also persecutes apostates so we don't need to hear this lecture i think from the rest of the world they need to handle it and also there's apostasy laws unwritten apostasy laws from from the orthodox jewish community for when they leave their religion so this is certainly not an only muslim phenomenon you got it and thank you very much for this question do appreciate it mark reid says actually there's azian that said we got you so sorry it is so no problem okay elusive vipers as if peer reviewed studies showed that Mormonism provided better outcomes in all of the metrics you've mentioned would you convert from Islam nadir that's yeah this goes back to the consequence fallacy uh just because the consequences are good therefore it is true but that's not my argument tonight i'm not here to debate is Islam true this is of course can be part of it i mean when you look at the five facts which i have raised tonight of how Islam impacts humanity none of that was actually denied none of that was refuted and on my challenges well what religion what belief out there that can offer me all what Islam can offer and i don't think you'll be able to find one like that so um but what makes Islam true is the scientific miracles of it the prophetic evidence as well as the great consequences that we see so there's many lines of reasoning and evidences for it which makes Islam true you got it there's one coming in from azian strikes again i have friends in muslim countries who are terrified of their families killing them for being atheists muslim countries are horrible to atheists well that happens all in all over the world look in india i've said i've already shown you that these banded bands of radical fundamentalist hindu's who are trying to enforce a very extreme version of hinduism are also threatening apostates it's happening in russia it's happening even in america their apostates from wherever they are from whatever walk of life they're going to face problems and i've i've shown you the documentation that again it is a this is the false uh the false idea that apostasy is only a muslim problem no it's not you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from sudo nim says nadir can you or randolph read chapter 16 verse 67 of the Quran quote from the great vine behold this drink is for the wise unquote is alcohol forbidden though endorsed no absolutely not so basically of course islam does mention that there is some good in alcohol but the evil of it outweighs the good so like i said what what you need to do you need to look at the peer reviewed studies which i've shown you and it states very clearly in there it is because of their islamic faith which has led to these great results which is 50 times less likely to have a fetal alcohol child but not only that but we also see islam is helping in preventing crime because 40 percent of the crime is alcohol induced so these are just some of the great impacts islam has on on humanity this one from sunflower says nadir thoughts on the disproportionate level of genetic disorders due to reproduction between cousins in islam is that condoned in the Quran so basically when it when it comes to cousins there's no statement in the Quran which actually tells people go and marry your cousin the Quran is silent on that in the hadith there is an incident where Muhammad married his cousin so people began to interpret it that you should go that we should go marry our cousin so the problem first of all is in the interpretation but what Muhammad made it very clear on what on the criteria to get married i'll quote for you hadith over here which is which i think should clarify the matter on who you should marry and this is the problem people are not following the guidance of islam so oops let me let me go over here well first of all i also want to back up nowhere to this say science has not taken the position that you cannot marry your cousin rather it's really is the frequency so this is actually actually incest does uh i'll show you i'll show you the problems yeah so basically a woman is to be married for four reasons for her property her status her beauty and it goes on so try to get the one who is religious not your cousin look for the religious person and and again it talks about her good character so may your hands be be smirched with dust so it actually gives a threat for the people who try to look for any other reason to marry so in the next hadith it actually states that um marry marry them for for the religion a black slave a black slave woman with piercings who is religious is far better so if people follow these the the divine the guidance from prophet Muhammad there wouldn't be any problems of of of cousin marriages why is a black slave woman better i'm curious why why do they if she's religious because people were thinking back then well okay well she's a slave woman but my but this person is much better because she's not a slave i was saying hey listen if she's religious she's gonna be much better than anybody who you can even what what does it matter that she's black though why why do they specify that well we can we can debate that at a later time right i'm just wondering why they specify that why they get that specific well because some people might have a notion in their head oh but wait a second she's a slave black woman therefore well but she's religious this person is better than that Muhammad is saying no even if she's a black slave woman of what they're thinking and she's religious to be much better based upon her religious conviction back against racism is what you're saying absolutely in fact there's a hadith on that which says that no arab or non-arab is better or a black person is better it's unpaity okay um that's i'm glad to hear that uh james the previous question they were asking us to read out 1660 is that right 16 let me see i scrolled up already 59 oh 59 okay i see six there so sorry verse 67 okay that i'm sure 1667 oh i'm not able to find that no worries then this one coming in from not mod bruce wanes says why do the hadiths prescribe the death penalty for apostates though mid-year yeah so the proper the right position on apostasy is of course in the quran first of all there's nothing in the quran which says that the person who is apostate should be killed when we look at the hadiths we'll see Muhammad never killed any apostates and he actually prevented and forbade people to do that people apostated right in front of him and uh in fact let me see i can give you a reference on that real quick over here if i can find it uh and so yes there is a hadith where Muhammad actually did say okay for the people who are apostates uh they should that they should be killed however well people are forgetting that there's a great deal of leniency towards that in fact i'm going to go and quote for you syria ibn eshaq on that let me share my desktop here real quick and show the slum has a great deal of flexibility and leniency towards the apostates so basically inside this this story over here uh there's a person who criticized Muhammad and he says be just and so of course any criticism of Muhammad is an act of apostasy in islamic sharia law so then it takes basically the person behind said let me kill him but Muhammad said no don't kill him he said in fact the people from his loins that he's going to are going to basically apostate as well and he'll be the he'll be the reason for multiple apostasies and people leaving the religion in fact let me let me read for you very quick rather than paraphrasing said no leave him alone for he will have a following that will go so deeply into religion that they will come out of it as an arrow come out of the target and so you gotta take it all in within context is there leniency towards apostates being killed absolutely and this is the example which i'm showing you go ahead you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from Ozzie and says yes hinduism is no better than islam good point and also says the 13 countries which maintain the death penalty for blasphemy or apostasy are afghanistan brunay iran malaysia maldives i'm going to mispronounce some of these mirad maritania nigeria pakistan qatar saudi arabia samalia united arab emirates and yemen that's that's that's categorically false there are apostasy laws in india the anti conversion laws in india are anti apostasy laws there are apostasy laws by which vladimir putin actually instilled in russia where you cannot leave the russian orthodox church for a billy graham version of christianity or johova witness you cannot do that several johova witnesses have been murdered in russia and of course there are apostasy laws in china these are all unwritten laws but they're all being practiced so to say that only in the islamic world you have apostasy laws uh-uh that is categorically false you got it this one coming in from you stabbed me with a fork says atheism does not believe in quote do whatever you want atheism has no particular moral system only as a byproduct of atheism being vague what's happening in china has nothing to do with atheism itself i agree this is correct atheism isn't a do what you like thing it just happens to be that people are free and so as an atheist we don't have restrictions from a religious deity what we do have though our local laws in our countries that we still need to conform to just like religious people have to well no the point which i was making of course in atheism moral values are all relative there actually are none it's all just a figment of your image let me finish my point but i didn't want to get into that debate randolph i'm just giving you no i just going to push back okay go ahead okay but what the point why i raised up china is because if people say okay well look at the charlie hebdo massacres look at the people throwing acid in people's face i say listen we got bad apples atheists have bad apples too and so uh atheists need to consider that before they criticize this law you got it and thank you very much for your question i just was pushing back a little bit on this uh what nadir was saying about uh atheism being uh relative morals well actually it's it's up to each individual atheist to decide morality for themselves it may be relative for some it may be something else for somebody else so there's just no restriction under atheism on that you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from benjamin iota says in saudi arabia execution of apostates is taught as wahib meaning muslims are to carry out the punishment it's not optional nadir is lying well no i think that person's lying i don't think that person knows what he's talking about i have already uh given a citation where Muhammad let this person go he said leave him alone so now who's a liar okay now i've courted you from syria bin asak actually have many references Muhammad himself never killed any apostates and we i showed you the prophet actually said from his loins you will find many people who are going to leave islam and Muhammad was okay with that okay so there's definitely his leniency and mercy towards apostates as well in islam and no scholar on islam will ever deny that although nadir disagrees with me i did point out that 489 does justify killing people who don't believe we already went through 489 you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from benjamin iota strikes again says and the regimes who carry out the punishments are ran by believers so Mormons are they say Mormons are executing apostates i think that it was maybe an auto correct maybe it was meant to be muslims stop running from the immorality of islam nadir i don't think i'm running from anything everything i have presented i'm almost everything it has a reference either in quran in the hadith or i'm bringing something from islam but uh or i'm sorry from science so i don't think i'm running from anything you got it and thank you very much for this one coming in from azians is great point us muslims are more moral than those 13 countries that i mentioned before such as yemen sadi arabia etc reform the middle eastern ones now nadir and you go reform china go reform india go reform russia go reform all the other countries go reform yourself first and of course we will definitely reform our but to present us as a problematic people no or not there's that problem is all around 65 i think it's okay to uh that apostates should be executed yeah well 49 of evangelical christians think islam should not even be practiced and and would outlaw it so oh i agree that's bad yeah i agree that's bad and i also think that uh 65 well i have not seen that 65 percent which you have presented so you're just quoting things which we have not even looked at so this one from benjamin iota says this guy nadir is just like the rest of them oh my god oh no i'm the worst bad already no i'm the worst out of all of them you've been typecast congratulations you made it it does sound quite brutal they say can't admit the flaws in the religion it's sad and they also say i might as well three because they were sent three in a row they said mohammed is the number is the one who gave the command to kill apostates and tell nadir to stop obfuscating read and well i'll give you this is another verse they want to go to so i'll give you a chance to respond to these first two nadir so i don't dog pile you with questions well the first oh the first one yeah so that is that that has already been addressed um you know there's many mohammed himself never killed any apostates again we're so the basically the problem is they are being refuted and and they're not addressing the arguments which are refuting and they're just repeating the original refuted argument and i've also shown you that from the there was a group of people who criticized mohammed and they were and they asked can i please kill that person but mohammed said no don't do that so there's many references which i've presented which have already substantiated my claims you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from bedroom iota strikes against intelligent here to stop obfuscating read ann nissai 40 59 or 4059 sura nissau 40 59 you want me to read that over here yeah okay okay let me do that really quick all right they politely request or if you want me to read it and you can respond i'd be happy to do that okay it says over here certainly the hour is bound to come there's no doubt uh 40 this there's no doubt about it but most people do not believe i'm not sure what the point here is i'm gonna i'm gonna type this in just to be sure i'm on the same page and when i type it in and i'm not uh because i let's see okay so you're right 14th uh chapter all i know is this when i type in 40 uh you know that what they requested the it says quote the messenger of a law said quote whoever changes his religion kill him so let me yeah as i said that these are points which have already been responded and they need to basically listen to the refutation uh and so basically i also wanted to quote from the Quran you know just to go back to Randall's point that somehow non-believers are to be killed or something like that uh based upon their religion there's no such teaching like that in fact the Quran condemns it it says and the truth is from your lord whoever decides let him believe and whoever decides let him disbelieve let him disbelieve this is chapter 18 verse 29 Muhammad never killed anybody on account of his religion that's a historical fact Islam has already won the recognition of many peer-reviewed journals in its tolerance to people of other religions so that is why Randall's your interpretation of of chapter four verse 89 is for is erroneous the Quran makes it clear let them disbelieve in chapter 2 verse 256 it says there is no compulsion in religion let there be no force in religion so and like i said this is something which we academics have already commented on this and they have recognized Islam for its tolerance of different religions you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from madame says if you leave Islam you won't be killed unless you cause rebellion and commit treason in the u.s the punishment for treason is death for you dragging local laws into it fantastic i'm being sarcastic next up benjamin iota says Quran is not limited to the context of the battlefield it's for all times tell him to stop obfuscating okay stop obfuscating on chapter 18 verse 29 i'll read it again for you the truth is from your lord so whoever decides let him believe and whoever decides then let him disbelieve there you go so this shows there is no forcing in religion so they've got to start dealing with these arguments you've got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from sj thomas in long time viewer i don't know sj are you still up this is late for florida time says the dear i've been on the show a few times yeah juicy it says nadir how many jews or and or christians did muhammad have slaughtered how do you compare him with jesus who said those who live by the sword and die that way uh no so basically i don't want to get into christianity and the violence in christianity of course we've seen inside both inside the new testament and the old testament there are clear passages to kill non-believers in fact the difference between the koran and the bible is that if you look inside first samuel chapter 15 verse three it specifically says to kill babies women and children so how can you compare that with anything in the koran i mean it literally says to kill babies in chapter i'm sorry inside first samuel chapter 15 verse three you will never read any of that in the koran the koran shows tolerance to all to people of all religions as i have shown you it's only the people who are not peaceful who are the people who are fought that was clearly established in the koran and in the hadith and even in the syrah you got it i just wanted just one point of kind of support for nadir here i did point out earlier that the koran at least people have a chance under 489 to convert to start believing in Allah and then they're not punished for that but under a similar part in the holy bible second chronicles chapter 15 verse 13 it says that whoever would not seek the lord of israel should be put to death whether small or great whether man or woman there's no wiggle room there there's no opportunity to to start believing in the god so i do think the bible is more harsh than in this case than 489 in the koran well how do you how do you address 1829 was 489 i just quoted from you let them disbelieve yeah you know i'm just relaying something a little earlier so i'm trying to be a little bit supportive of what you're saying that the bible is actually worse but but but you see that you know if you take the koran as proper context you read chapter 18 verse 29 there's no way you can walk away from this first thinking that you should be basically killing people because they don't believe in what you believe in 1829 yep oh yeah you just had that on the screen yeah i i need some time to digest it first that's fine yeah you got it and thank you very much for your question benjamin and iota strikes again oh the oh you know this happy campers says bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace islam sahih bukhari 4557 nadir please explain that verse yeah that was already explained with the hadith which i quoted from remember the guy uh came to muhammad he used to kill him with a killing him with a sword then the sword dropped out of his hands muhammad picked up the sword and says who is going to save you from me and he says mercy but and then he and then he said prophet muhammad said i bear witness that i am the messenger of Allah and he said no i'm not going to do that and then he's but i promise that i will never fight you nor encourage people to fight against you prophet let him go and he said i i've come back from the people from from um from the one who's the best of mankind so my challenge has been unmet show me from the syrah show me from the hadith any individual any group of people who were fought just because of their religious belief or any peaceful group of people you'll never find it this one coming in from do appreciate your question not a chump says nadir Mormonism does not allow alcoholic consumption and creates very happy people is the false ideology Mormonism good for humankind yeah i already stated so well i don't know what Mormonism actually teach about alcohol but when we look at the research the only people who really made a significant impact is the muslims there are people who can condemn alcohol sure but very few people can really convince its followers not to drink alcohol on their own without any kind of force and make and and it's not just remember that is just one piece of evidence we cited five significant impacts on how is islam has on a humanity i have not seen any religion that can do all of that and if you look at in terms of whatever belief system whether it's atheism or or Mormonism no religion has positively impacted humanity more so than Islam i'll just uh state that atheism is not a religion you've got a belief system yeah not a belief system either quick lemon says why should we trust Islam when hadith says Muhammad had intimate encounters with little boys and aisha had to clean him up after probably why baka bazi exists but jabbazi that's no there's no such thing that's all fabrication so uh basically to you know to do these kind of acts are clearly condemned in Islam and so the people who are doing these things you know these are basically criminals so again this goes back to people are taking the acts of criminals whether it's the hebdo massacre or molesting little boys in Afghanistan and they're trying to say this is what Islam teaches you to do but all of this garbage has been refuted by the by the by the scientific research which i have presented and that's my invitation to you base your belief on facts not this uh nonsensical type of uh you know uh stereotyping you got it this one coming in from benjamin iota says muslims continue to think they own all of science that's not even worth responding to yeah oh i remember when i used to be a guest i used to debate on the non sequitur show and i remember i said that to some responses i said i'm not even gonna bother responding to sg thomas it takes for your super go ahead and you remember what i said nadir respond with humor okay this one coming in from sg thomas and i didn't see if you had a question that you want to attach to that last super chat but thanks for staying up late with us sg thomas and i know that it's it's late there it's 11 30 i think raid the producer says nadir what do you think of koran 13 3 that says god created fruits of every kind in pairs fruits are not male or female the science is all wrong if the koran was saying that it are male and female then you would have a point but the koran the text of the koran does not say that they are that everything is male or female that's your interpretation that you're twisting into the text benjamin iota strikes again imagine thinking one version of slay one's version of slavery is justified disgusting and then says the difference is that atheists don't claim their actions are justified objectively by god all the discrimination in islam is justified by god we have a chance to respond to those points nadir now well you know they have already been refuted by akib by akademi there's a lot of journals or a lot of uh people publications which have actually praised islam and its position towards slavery i've already pointed out the dangers of a sudden release of slaves into freedom we saw what happened in brazil haiti is another good example so to avert the humanitarian catastrophe you know it should be done in a very uh how you say in steps so for example uh the the hadith which i quoted for you is that the one who educates his slave girls and then sets her free he will get a double reward so here within the islamic version of slavery you get an education you don't get that in the free world the people during the life of muhammad were uneducated didn't even know how to read and write yet in slavery islamic version you get to learn you get to get an education now what happens when you educate slaves well they're going to demand their freedom part of slavery the great uh evil of slavery is you keep them dumb and stupid islam came to abolish this practice and said no you should educate them so if you call that disgusting i think uh you don't know what you're talking about islam forbade the beating of slaves overworking them they're going to eat the same food that you eat the slave master and they're going to wear the same clothes so uh i don't see anything disgusting about that what i think would have been better is if a new religion coming along just had slavery abolished from the beginning since there's making major change in society anyway this would have been a very good opportunity to start with a clean slate with absolutely no slavery at all that would have been the better choice well i think well that is our that like i said that has already not worked the best choice is a is a gradual release into freedom where you build an infrastructure ready to receive them remember Muhammad said you should educate them what who builds an infrastructure the slaves we have to build that infrastructure what i'm saying is unless that infrastructure is there you know there's going to be problems and that's exactly what happened in brazil so again you know we have good intentions here but to make sure that we have the right plan in action that doesn't create bigger problems that create cycles of violence and poverty as it is done in america and brazil and all over the world so it is important to do it in a sensible way to really to basically abolish slavery and that's exactly what Islam did you know i disagree with the delayed release i think slavery has to be ended i mean as soon as possible not not in some stage you are not addressing the point rando of what happened in brazil you are not addressing what happened in Haiti or america we've seen the catastrophes that happened with that this one coming in from sunflower has two one a member question says cite the source on muslims being most charitable nadir oh yeah sure no problem uh you can add that to the description later yeah i'm sorry what was that no maybe james can add that link to the video description so basically the ones which in fact let me share my desktop here real quick and so basically it says not only that muslims are the most charitable but they're also the most willing to to to basically engage to volunteer here's a study this is taken from yahoo news us muslims gave more to charity than other americans in 2020 they are also more likely to volunteer and you can find my reference that you could just basically put that right into google and you should get my reference for that you got it and this one coming in from do appreciate your question also from sunflower says nadir in the usa there was a sudden release of black slaves via the civil war and emancipation was this a mistake so there are definitely success stories when it comes to emancipation but there was also a lot of problems with that because now look at almost every us city going from seattle to washington or miami you will see that there are poor neighborhoods there are quote ghettos and the people who are residing in them are the former descendants of slaves and when you look at and you reason why is it like that well this is a legacy which slavery left behind this goes back to the importance of having an infrastructure ready to receive them to give them jobs to give homes because remember even if you're to look at america as a success story what is undeniable was brazil was a catastrophe the favelas which they built which the which the slaves basically built because they had nowhere to go to um is an example that 64 000 people died from murders alone in these favelas so what happened is they create these cycles of violence and poverty which which needs to be taken into consideration so that's why the sudden release is not a good idea you go to this one coming in from suns we got that one coming in from the nun or i think it'd be pronounced the noon says nadir in accordance to verse 65 for do you support the marriage and intercourse of prepubescent girls if so what are the divinely inspired benefits no i don't in fact why i read to you the hadith what should you what are the criteria you should look for in your spouse and it's our original religiosity the one who's best in her character and her religion and if you apply that there's no way you're going to get a little girl you're going to get somebody maybe in their 20s because that's what those are going to be people who will fit that criteria this one coming in from happy campers says nadir what is your highest level of formal training on these issues namely like what's your highest level of education so for me i graduated with a degree in religion studies but i worked in the it field for the last i don't know maybe 10 15 years this one coming in from not mod bruce wane says nadir would you be cool with muslims being killed on grounds of that they left some other religion for islam no i don't think so in fact as i said we as muslims we don't do that and and and there's a great deal of leniency and mercy when it comes to the apostasy so even in an islamic an islamic state or you can say islamic country would there be if someone apostates and leaves their religion is could there be leniency for them well absolutely no scholar would deny this this is so i hope that answers the question you got it and thank you very much for this question benjamin iota says cousin marriages is not forbidden in is forbidden in islam yet it is not healthy for the offspring somehow allah forgot to ban it yet he figured out alcohol is bad nadir yeah so basically uh so there's there's it's a misrepresentation of science and it is a misrepresentation of what islam says okay so basically let me uh let me first give you the reference what science actually says about uh about cousin marriages okay this is taken from uh this is basically uh this is taken from stanford university this is what science has to say while the chance may be increased it isn't high as most people think children of parents who are who are cousins or half sibling have a have a slightly higher which is the one two percent risk of being born with a disability but like i said from an islamic point of view it has already told you the criteria uh for for basically marrying and if you apply that criteria it'll be very rare very rare that you would even marry your cousin in the first place so um you know as i said again the quran is actually silent on that so that's taken actually from stanford university gotcha thank you very much for your question this one coming in from not mod bruce wain says according to didir if you sometimes don't punish apostates with death that makes punishing apostates with death okay the logic is impeccable well like i said there's a great deal of there is an injunction in islam and then the hadith which said about killing apostates sure that's there but why are you forgetting about the leniency why are you ignoring everything which i'm telling you i already told you mohammed himself never killed any apostates and and in in spite of the fact that they were actually presented to him so uh i think the issue about the leniency towards that has not been refuted you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from do appreciate it pineapple lapodimus says you are amazing as jesus said thank you for the truth i don't know who or what i guess that's for you james i don't know i haven't really taken a stance on anything to yeah comparing to jesus that sounds like that sounds like it's in your wheelhouse i don't know i don't think so but i uh let's see i i i don't run an amazing show here so you're kind to compliment the show i always appreciate it and i oh that reminds me folks i do have another question here i want to remind you both randolph and nadir are linked in the description folks if you want to hear more if you're like this is interesting i want to hear more first time hearing them or maybe the second time and you're like yeah but i haven't checked out their link yet well it's waiting for you and that includes at the podcast we put our guest links at the top of the description box both here on youtube and at the podcast so if you want to you can click on their links if you're listening via the modern day debate podcast app or link podcast my pleasure snake was right says islamic countries were the last two outlaw slavery though nadir yeah again we go back to what the islamic scriptures teach we should judge islam based on the actual scripture what is clear is judaeo christian slavery which is taught in the bible which was implemented all around the world this is clearly condemned islam actually presented such a good version of slavery that it arguably is better than actually the free person so look at what islam has to teach about that you know well you know you probably as randall you have not actually studied islamic version of freedom in my view and just one point to snake was right uh yemen is an example of one country that has not outlawed slavery yet well again we're going back to what islam teaches because if you start saying well yemen is a country that did this i'll say well china is an atheist country which has done that so let's go back to our scriptures let's see what it says and again we're talking about if we're talking about today oh yeah sure freedom is much better today well let's talk about there in in the ancient world let's talk about when poverty was 90 percent where people ate things well dinner came when we caught something you know and so when you look at the when you look at uh the islamic version of slavery uh and you compare to the free person uh it's actually pretty good the free person of 1400 years ago but i think randall these are things that you have not really studied so i invite you to look into that i have i think that if as a matter of principle doesn't matter what time what century we're in i don't want to be anybody's slave i want my freedom call me selfish if you want yeah i prefer freedom and it seems to me that people would prefer to be free and be employed rather than to be enslaved sure not just now not just back then not whatever it no matter the time is irrelevant it's always the case that i think freedom is better for people yeah it's the misunderstanding of the situation islam didn't start slavery this was a slavery system was already there start slavery it or it was already there and the question is okay now what do you do and i have already argued and showed you the dangers of sudden release first okay there you guys you're all free uh uh that may not it doesn't always have a happy ending and we have seen that i've given you several examples of that but islam laid down the rules and gave the gradual freedom to slaves yeah but there was a demand for instant conversion to to islam no there wasn't no there wasn't we must move forward this one last question coming in from do appreciate it mango tea says nadir is it true that the prophet has seamen stains on his clothes and asked his child wife to scrape it off i don't see how that is in any way relevant to this discussion i think people are just kind of being malicious in the text i would invite that person to look at what islam the good impact which islam has upon mankind look this person sat in listen to this debate and he ignored everything i said i listed five points he ignored all of that just to bring up this erroneous point just to try to make fun so i don't think this person i addressed things yeah i don't think this person deserves to to to be responded to this one coming in from gavin hurlman says question for both in the west why are there no universities or colleges established by atheist organizations i'm sorry you broke up a little bit there why isn't there question for both in the west why are there no universities or colleges established by atheist organizations so the history in our countries is that these institutions tend to be he's talking about the the older bigger universities they've been around for a long time and it used to be the case that christianity was very commonly practiced across the land and so the people who are naturally going to be starting organizations are going to be most of them going to be christians now many of the universities have since moved away from that and there's newer smaller universities that have sprung up since that have no religious affiliation at all and there continues to be other universities that do have religious affiliation with islamic organizations with the christian organizations and whatnot and so it's kind of a mixed bag now but the major ones have that history so the foundation there is is not there it's it's a strange question if i could answer real quickly it's because of what we saw tonight um atheism has nothing to offer mankind which is measurable and i think that's the reason why you don't see anything good coming from them you know and i think i and i don't see anything bad coming from it either well we've already discussed that what's going on in china so it doesn't have doctrine so what china and russia and other countries do is not based on any atheistic doctrine oh we did i did promise you guys i'd give you a closing statement so if you guys would eat like a two minute closing i can give you that sure so go ahead randall oh no you started with an opening statement you can start with a closing statement oh you go ahead you're my guess going you started with an opening i can flip a coin so i don't know if this is agreed upon beforehand in terms of the order for these but it is true that in some context matches normally matches the opening statement orders what's always happened before and so i let him choose that so it should be the same that's how it's been really real the debate you've done uh it is okay but matt dill hunty actually did tell me one time that in more formal debates that sometimes you actually have the uh the alternate where you you reverse it at the end so um i was surprised by that matt told me that though during a live debate and i was like oh it's like i didn't know that but uh so i am willing to flip a coin because i don't know if this is i i'll go first i'll go first no problem did you did we discuss closings originally if we did this is so my fault for not even remember no we didn't discuss it yeah all right i'll just i'll just do a timer for two minutes okay see one second you know i can start here okay um i'm just going to share my desktop over here so first of all i'd like to thank randall for a very good discussion um you know and i think that and i think that uh you know the five points which we have seen which i have raised tonight uh that that basically is slum you know started a scientific revolution which has benefited all of humanity you know we saw from there this is known at the golden age of Islam which is basically all western advances in civil engineering mathematics chemistry medicine and astronomy were founded upon the medieval science of Islam we saw so much good come from that we also saw the study which basically muslims are the highest life satisfaction from the from the article which i quoted over here which trumps other religions we've also seen that they're the most charitable uh you know and and most willing to volunteer as you can see from the study over there uh and one of the they are Islam is a powerful rehabilitating force in the prisons i've shown you how people were basically how it influenced prisoners to give up their criminal life to live a much better life and give up materialism and other things which was driving their criminality and Islam succeeds where others fail in lowering the rates of fetal alcohol syndrome and other alcohol related problems look 80 percent i'm sorry 40 percent of crimes is alcohol induced so look how Islam has such a positive impact in in reducing crime as well so and and of course all of this is what i've presented to you is documented and and you know Randolph did concede that if you look for real document documented benefits of atheism there simply is none so that's this is an open and shut case now he did say he's going to go back and he's going to look at chapter 18 verse 29 which clearly states let them disbelieve so we'll wait for him to come back on that that's two minutes we'll set it for Randolph or is all yours Randolph okay just quickly address the some of the points that Nadir made and thank you for a good debate today so the scientific revolution i don't grant Islam full credit for that they get credit within islamic circles and islamic societies but that's about as far as it goes now because different cultures throughout the world have contributed to science as well in different ways you also mentioned about islam being a powerful rehabilitating force in the prison system there are many christians in prisons too and there if there is a lot of activity of muslims in prison that raises the question why so many muslims in prison maybe that's an unfair question but i do wonder what has islam actually done to promote prison reform because there's a lot of groups out there doing that against alcohol islamic regimes prohibit alcohol so there will be less alcohol abuse and misuse in those that's a fallacy of the consequent there so closing statement for me is to just remind people that atheism has no doctrine so criticizing secular countries is not always on par because if they're not originally intended to be atheistic then it doesn't count for fair criticism china doesn't qualify russia doesn't qualify and other countries don't in this case the fundamental and most intrinsic thing that i can say about atheism is that it is freedom center whereas islam is about submission you need to conform just like any other religion you need to conform and i i believe that being free in in all the most possible maximally possible ways is better for society we flourish better as a society with that in the long run and that's why i favor atheism in this case thank you very much you gotta thank you very much we will jump into we have just a several more questions that came in sorry thank you guys for your pages this is coming in from mango tea says nadir will asking my child wife to scrape my semen stains on my clothes make me happy according to islam i think that they are just asking like is there a standard muslim response in the muslim apologetics world to the idea of semen on your clothes uh that well how is this related to this type of debate i guess it's kind of what i'm wondering okay no worries snake was right says nadir what is a dimmy it's they spell it dhi mmi a limmy uh yeah so basically this is a term where for people living within the islamic empire i think is what that term refers to oh by the way um i don't know how long we have left here but uh i gotta get going it's almost like yes 12 o'clock here last one so sorry i thought like this is mic q922 says nadir do christians jews atheists end up in hell are their degrees of punishments in islam so yeah so basically the question here is about salvation you know if they have heard the message they've seen the evidences god is going to hold them accountable and so uh now of course there's many different scenarios which could happen uh now there's some people who have never heard the message for that god will have to judge him in a different way gotcha and want to say folks we appreciate our guests so much they are both linked in the description i'm going to be back just about 15 to 20 seconds with an update on debate con which has many we're i'm talking really big time debates you guys i am absolutely pumped i want to show you one before you leave right now folks i've got to show you this because you're probably like james what do you mean here is one that we just confirmed today this is between daniel hikachu strong muslim debater taking on destiny on whether or not liberalism necessitates the domination of islam it is going to be a barn burner a slobber knocker you don't want to miss that debate my friends that is going to be at debate con coming up in texas and all of those debates will end up on the channel some of them live and some of them being released later so if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we're absolutely pumped for those debates coming up and so randolph and nadir thank you guys so much seriously it was a blast tonight i really did enjoy it thank you nadir was nice to meet you you too all right thanks thank you i'll be back in just a moment folks to ground my dear friends we are absolutely excited excited about the upcoming debate conference debate con this is seriously it is going to be amazing my dear friends and i've got to tell you let me tell you a couple things things that we are absolutely pumped about for this conference one if you have been living in a cave on mars with your fingers in your ears my dear friends i got to tell you it's pinned at the top of the chat right now the link if you live in texas if you live in dallas especially folks you have got to check out this conference i am telling you it has got monstrous debates in particular we had told you this one we just confirmed it yesterday morning because you might be wondering you're like jane is that what are you talking about if you did not see this just a moment ago it's going to be huge daniel he gets you versus destiny my dear friends this is going to be the main event for the religion debates night you don't want to miss it we're absolutely pumped for it and so i've got to tell you we've got a lot of stuff coming up in addition you might be like wow james i don't know i don't actually live in texas and so that's actually kind of far away for me and so you know i would but i got to tell you hey maybe you know someone in dallas and as a christmas gift you want to get him a ticket for debate con right now the early bird tickets are in my opinion just extremely cheap to where bob i basically said i was like bob i was like i don't know if we can go this cheap because we have to the reason we're selling the tickets folks is to cover the cost of the venue and the travel cost for the speakers and so i was like wow i don't like that's pretty cheap and he was like you know what let's do it and i was like all right we'll do it so the early bird is you can get tickets at 75 bucks right now that is for the entire day which has five debates it is going to be huge but let me share other info with you because you might be like i don't know about this like this is kind of new to me what's all going on if you check on our main page on youtube you can see all of the debates and i'm like i'm telling you you guys it's just off the hook it is ginormous i am absolutely pumped check this out as we have got five debates per day you don't want to miss out on this conference and in addition we have not decided which debates yet but of those debates five per day two are going to be not live streamed except if you happen to be a patreon supporter or a member of the channel or a person who throws into the crowdfund we want to say thank you so much you will have access to all of the debates being live streamed and people some people are like i'm just so turned off james the idea that like there's a paywall that some of these debates would have you have to throw into the crowdfund or you have to be a patreon supporter or a channel member i i'm angry james and i had mentioned folks all of the funds from ticket sales as well as through the crowdfund 100 of them are being used for debate con so in other words you might be thinking like oh james you're gonna pocket that cash or put it in your checking account and you know save up for something no no no no this is going to into an account that is exclusively for debate con sideshow nav our head moderator is holding me accountable and so that way we're looking for a way that everybody can like hold me accountable because i've got nothing to hide and this is a promise i'm following through on 100 of it will either be used for this conference or if we got lucky and had a surplus we would actually use that for debate con too because we are doing another conference in may assuming this one goes well enough it is going to be sweet i've got to tell you guys we are absolutely thrilled and you can see at the far right of our screen so maybe you're like i'm not in texas james i can't go in person i gotta tell you only 24 days left for the crowdfund throw into this crowdfund and i will link that crowdfund in the link right now because you might be thinking like ah james i don't know where is it how do i do the crowdfund like this is new to me don't worry it's honestly we've done this three times before it's always been fantastic we've always met our goal for the crowdfund and again this is used to cover costs for the actual show so that's pinned at the top of the chat highly encourage you throw into that crowdfund because then you get to watch all of the debates for the entire conference for the two days live if you just throw in nine bucks that's it just nine bucks and you get to watch all four of those debates that we plan on having be reserved for patreon supporters or people who are channel members we want to say thank you to those people as well that you've already supported us and we want to give basically give thanks back by having you be able to watch these without even throwing into the crowdfund because you've already been a patreon supporter or a member but i want to say hi to you there in the old chat hl aristoceles thanks for being with us as well as cranky beast 2259 thanks for kind of being here thanks for your kind words i saw that in the chat i appreciate the compliment and Randolph good to see you there that's right Amy Newman's after show is linked in the description and that's right below our guest links we always put the guest links first and you might be wondering you're like well what about the link for the crowd fund or the tickets we put those just below the guest links and so you can join in on this crowdfund and i want to tell you we are absolutely pumped we have always made our goal in the past and we are determined i don't care if we have to do a crowdfund in january if it's me and t-jump and steven steen out there doing a car wash in january we will do it just to make sure that this crowdfund makes it to its goal and i've got to tell you a couple of other things folks you might be like jeans i don't know about like crowdfund that's weird is well you can see on the meter we've already had a good first start so for the first week or so which is all we've had we're at about if i remember right let me actually check because i we're at about 15% which is encouraging that's actually a great start and so that is a good thing for the crowdfund and we usually see most of the funds come in in the last three weeks and so we want to say though hey throw in there now as that way you don't have to worry about whether or not you're going to forget it and that way on the day of the debate you'll know hey you get to watch everything for like basically right here at the channel and let me tell you because you might be like i don't know i'm kind of like uncomfortable i don't know like what this crowdfund stuff is like let me just show you some of this stuff because you might be like what is it what's going on here modern day debate debate con my dear friends we are absolutely pumped see up there in the corner debate con 2021 january 15th and 16th and we are using indiegogo as the crowdfund to make this happen i've got to tell you we are absolutely pumped and a couple of reasons because you might be like well how does it work though well let me tell you a couple of things here i've got to first tell you why is it that we're doing a crowdfund or selling tickets these actually cost funds it takes funds to put on an event like this and so this is where our budget comes in we have the venue which is in blue on the right side of the pie graph speaker hotel rooms which are in the bottom left orange part of the graph speaker flights which are in the gray left side piece of the pie and then speaker pre diem for food that's in the yellow slice and then that little sliver at the top is the indiegogo fees as we factor that in there and i gotta tell you my dear friends it has a purpose so if you are excited about this channel if you believe in the vision with us namely of this channel modern day debate striving to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on the big questions in life on a level playing field then join us as we pursue that vision wholeheartedly we have got big stuff coming up in this conference is just one of them but i gotta show you other stuff here so let me show you because you might be like uh like uh tell me more i want to see what this is like well my dear friends it is a piece of cake if you want to sign up you click on the link that is either in the description box or you can also click on the link that is pinned at the top of the chat for indiegogo and you don't even have to create an account you can actually just sign in with facebook it's amazing really convenient for real it's actually it's just a piece of cake which makes it really nice and you might be thinking like ah james i don't know like tell me more well here's just a couple of examples of the examples of the perks for 50 bucks you don't have to be at the event in person to ask a question if you throw in 50 for the crowdfund you can actually ask a question from home that we will read live during the in-person event and we'll say this person's sending it from home who is a crowdfund funder we will actually be able to read that for you or maybe you're like i don't know if i'll have any questions well if you throw in 90 bucks you get to watch all of the debates live now about half roughly we're still deciding we're hoping to decide by the 26 so five days from now we want to decide on which debate specifically will be the ones that are you could say that uh if you put into the crowdfund you'd get to watch them live and like i said that's about half of the 10 debates so about five so you get four to five debates by throwing in nine bucks you get to watch them live and not have to wait as i'm telling you these are going to be juicy ones as you know but you might be thinking well james have you ever done this before do you know what you're doing we have and we have met our goal both times when we have done crowdfunds before so you remember this one about a year ago at this time we did this crowdfund for the debate between mike jones and michael schermer we met our goal in that crowdfund so we have demonstrated the ability to do this in the past thanks to you you guys have supported it and we're absolutely thrilled you guys it's not just this one because you might be like ah yeah beginners luck james you know no no no we have done this more than once and successfully hit our goal for example you remember this crowdfund dr kenny roads versus matt dillahunty that was our first time on indy go go i've got to tell you we've done it before and we are going to make it this time my dear friends we are absolutely pumped i want to say thank you so much for making these things possible as you guys this is big stuff for modern day debate we're taking big steps here and like i said 100 of the funds from the crowdfund as well as from the ticket sales are going back toward debate con whether it be part one or if like i said if we get lucky and we make more than it costs we'll have a surplus that we'll use for debate con two in may my dear friends we have big stuff planned and so want to say thanks for hanging out with us though in the old chat i want to say hello to you and address you personally because i seriously i do appreciate you guys making this channel as awesome as it is because seriously you guys do make it awesome you guys have made these crowd funds possible in the past where we've gotten to host people like dr michael schermer president of skeptic magazine and new york times bestseller kind of a celebrity in the atheist world you guys have made these things possible and we want to say thank you so much to the people who've already put into the crowdfund you guys i am absolutely thrilled i'm encouraged because we have this is a good start for the crowdfund for real and i've got to tell you someone promised me the other day they're like hey i actually have a big amount that i'm going to throw in and so we are absolutely optimistic about it and randolph richardson thanks so much for coming on i see there in the old live chat and then be truthful good to see you there in the old live chat as well as well as kory ander and quick lemon thanks for coming by as well as hannah anderson good to see you and oliver catwell as always good to see you as well hinkers hill ingress soul thanks for coming by says jesse pilt amazing teabag we're glad you were here i hope you had a great day darth revan happy to have you kai pumped her with us snake was right i see you there ballah bestree full hd thanks for coming by as well as math house that's an hour we're glad you're with us crack pot broccoli glad you were with us says if i lived in texas may iar wouldn't be mutilated who juicy and hl aristosly's glad you're here as well as sage ohio and kareem thanks for coming by sorry folks we didn't get to every question i agree we do want to let the debaters out of here it was midnight for nadir uh so he's in he's actually in florida and so it's pretty late for him we we do have to let the guests out of here so we don't always get to ask every single question we try our best to move fast but my dear friends maryon gran bruhine glad to see you seriously we're glad you were here breakfast gone thanks for coming by says how can one buy tickets my dear friend it is linked at the top of well it's actually linked in the description box and the description box right underneath the debaters links it says here is the based link to grab an in-person ticket for the modern day debate or modern day debate debate con conference in dalis on january 15 so i'm telling you if you live in texas like come on out folks it's going to be a great time for real we are absolutely excited for this and then mango tea good to see you there dan are thanks for being with us and zoo thanks for coming by as well as truth defenders and not mod bruce wane good to see you there as well as amy newman good to see you and haxed longtime friend of the channel pumped to have you with us let's see t bug says caxi t bug are you by chance also the person behind the are you t bug are you human girl under yet another account but we are pumped to have you here no matter what and then let's see here i believe you t bug and then let's see here chats moving fast on me mohammed hamden thanks for your kind where it says big up the channel thanks so much for your support seriously and then cranky beast 2259 says who's coming who's conning who this is like a steal better than a deal james you trying to get conned with the sweet deal hell yeah basically yeah we're we're offering the tickets so it's such a low price right now that i'm like this is like it's it's almost half it's it's over half but it's it's not too far from half of the price that a similar conference that we've seen do for their prices where i'm like bob this is really cheap but hey i i want to tell you folks we really uh do appreciate people throwing in early for tickets as that gives us an idea of how many we can predict that in total we're going to have and the thing is for us to have this conference or i should say that the conference in may we want to have debate con part two for that to happen this one needs to go relatively well if we don't have extra funds that we can use for debate con part two in may that's okay it is but if we don't at least break even so like if we can break even or it's like ah it's like what we came out okay that's we're like okay we have a good reason to shoot for debate con two but if this is something where people are like nah i don't really care i don't really i'm i live in dallas but i still don't want to come and it's like or if people don't put into the crowd fund then we're like eh maybe we won't do debate con two so i'm telling you if you want to see more big time debates like this because these these really are some big time people like these are some big time subscriber like uh big time viewer i should not viewers either um big time debaters that we were actually going to host and so if you want to see more events like this i want to say hey jump in with us as we this is kind of a risk we're taking like it is a big budget for this event and so we are willing to take the risk because we really do believe people will back the channel and we do appreciate your support of the channel and we want to say thank you for that matthew demarton says thanks james thank you matthew seriously it means more than you know and we're excited about this we really have full confidence this is going to it's going to go well we really do believe it and we are going to ask the debaters to help promote the event and we really are confident it's going to go well and that we are going to do debate con part two in may and a site show nav says in the chat jump in early for the best prices early bird prices 26 through december 26 so yeah you got to move fast folks i would highly encourage you jump on it and we want to let you know you guys it is going to be absolutely based and redpilled as bob would say and matthew colbert sin good to see you it says my grooms i think he's he means to say grooms my dear friend matthew is so glad to see you matthew is a supporter of the channel and more importantly he is a personal friend of mine from back in the day i moved to nakidot just texas several oh wow it's already five years ago isn't it crazy matthew that five years ago was when we first met that's crazy it doesn't seem like it's been that long but five years ago matthew became one of my best friends and i am so thankful that we have stayed in touch and i got i told you guys the other day i got to visit matthew's wedding i told you that on sunday night and not only not only visit but i had the honor of being a groomsman and it was honestly a great i'm just thankful to be there on your special day matthew so seriously it means more than you know and then i've got to tell you yeah it was also fun to meet i was pumped to meet austin it absolute blast i really did enjoy austin and i actually i loved meeting cornelius creations matthew as well and t bug says i believe in healthy debate thanks t bug seriously that means more than you know i am excited and we've got to tell you we have told you the vision here at modern day debate is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field we're absolutely committed to that and i would say that the second part of our vision is we want to see people continue to talk there has been not just in politics i think even in the debate world in terms of religion and even in these kind of scientific debates like flat earth no joke there has been this kind of siloing off namely where groups have kind of there's been kind of this fissure that's been created between groups to where they're oftentimes isolated and not talking to each other we don't think that's a good thing so we are attempting to provide a bridge where people can actually talk with one another from different world views from different demographics christian atheist muslim you name it we are glad you are here seriously we really do appreciate you no matter what walk of life you're from as we strive to be a neutral channel we want to make you feel welcome no matter who you are black white gay straight christian muslim biden backer trump supporter you name it we are absolutely thrilled to have you here my dear friends but yes coriander pumped to have you here and i'm going to tell you my friends we may disagree on a lot it's true we do we might as well let's let's not even try to minimize it it's fine that we disagree there's nothing wrong with disagreeing in fact tolerance requires that there's disagreement i hated the fact i've told you guys this i've always hated how back in college when i was in undergrad sometimes they would say oh james uh you know don't don't say that only one view is right i mean because it's true i mean like for example i mean either muslims are right either christians are right are there either atheists are right it's not like all three of them and it's not even like two out of the three could simultaneously be true it's like no no no no like it's just there's too many contradictions between those views let's not be illogical let's stick with the law of non-contradiction and say that no they can't all be true it's gotta be the case that either one of them is right or theoretically none of them and maybe it was it was the spaghetti spaghetti monster spaghetti monsters i don't know what they're called but the idea is this what i'm trying to get at here is that it doesn't make sense to be like oh james be tolerant don't disagree it's like that doesn't make sense in order to be tolerant it requires disagreement it doesn't make sense for example if you know if you're talking with someone you find out you agree on something it doesn't make sense to say oh i i tolerate the fact that we agree on this it's like what that doesn't make sense you have to disagree for tolerance to actually be enacted and so let's not minimize the differences we do disagree but let's really try to engage with each other with an open mind saying let me at least understand where you're coming from let me at least understand it and even if you don't feel like budging from your position at all at least being willing to dialogue with the other side and being willing to say hey like let me hear you out on this there's something good there's something sincere about that but my dear friends i've got to tell you we are pumped we are excited thank you cranky beast 2259 this is uh one of the uh i don't know if this is um it's definitely one of the more novel compliments uh i've ever gotten in my life says james you're a cooler sexier mike lindell that doesn't sell effing pillows you mean the guy from my pillow thank you let me i mean do i really look like him now i'm like i'm insecure about this well i'm self-conscious about what or not i look like mike lindell well let me maybe a little bit no no i don't okay but i gotta tell you guys you guys i'm seriously pumped is that mike lindell if he heard about this conference he would be there that's how good debate con is going to be but i've got to tell you my dear friends we're excited about the future the other thing is i gotta tell you this i learned this from a friend named samuel nasan tolerance is a low bar at moderna debate we not only hope that people will interact we i'm not joking we hope they'll be friends and it's like hey they may debate and it might be fierce but i've got to tell you i've debated some people fiercely and afterwards said hey i would count them as a friend though we disagreed vehemently we disagreed so strongly but nonetheless said hey you know what let's just let it be water under the bridge we're not going to hold a grudge we're not going to take it personal we're just going to set it aside and be friends that's i think a more ideal vision to shoot for rather than oh we're just going to tolerate people tolerating if you think about it is only the first step it really should only be the first step it's kind of weak imagine if for example my friend samuel said this to me imagine if you visit or let's put it this way someone visits with you at your home their guest and then they uh you know you asked them how did it go did you sleep okay last night how how was it staying with us we hope it was comfortable we hope we were a good host and they say huh it was tolerable you would be insulted he like because tolerating something is the absolute minimum and so my encouragement is this we want to say don't just shoot for tolerating one another don't just shoot for communicating with one another at moderate a debate like i said we are in the you could say in the vision the pursuit the goal of creating bridges so that people can for real i really do believe that they can be friends now clown said will the haki gachu event be free to watch on youtube that particular one will be so we do know this this is all we know is that the main events will for sure be live for everyone but some of the other debates like i said about half the debates we're going to say hey would you be willing to put into the crowd fund to help us make this happen and i mean realistically think about it folks these things have costs like they really do i mean we're flying in speakers like i i mean if like i know that most of you are supportive and you're like hey like you know i understand james i get it for but for the one percent that are still skeptical uh i have to tell you if this is new is that airplane tickets cost money like they do that that's just the way it is and so my thing is i gotta tell you they do cost money for us to put this event on for us to rent this venue for the haki gachu and destiny debate that actually does cost money and so that's why i would say like hey folks like join us in pursuing this vision as we try to take these big steps and like i said if there happens to be any excess funds 100 of it is being put into debate con part two in may as we're hoping to have that conference so i am pumped to have you here though i want to say i love you guys thanks for all of your support of modern day debate thank you just for being here hit that subscribe button and that way you don't miss any of those debates because like i said even if you don't watch the debates live all of them will be released on the channel and that's one thing too is like i feel sometimes people like 1% are like james i'm i'm angry i can't watch it live and it's like well you know you'd be well to watch it for free anyway because we'll release it on the channel eventually and they're like i'm still indignant i want to watch it live and it's like you like and they're like and i don't want to put anything anything into the crowdfund and it's like can you meet us halfway like we are taking a risk here and so that's why i would say again 99% of you i know you're you're like i get it i understand why you do a crowdfund james like that makes sense but the 1% out there where i'm like we have to be practical here and so want to say thank you guys so much for all of your support thank you guys for making this channel awesome you really do make the channel awesome seriously i do appreciate you guys so much i love you guys you guys make this fun and i honestly enjoy this so much i told randolph and the deer when we started i said you guys this really puts a pep in my step i just love doing this and so say i want to say i love you guys bestry full hg as well as kori ander darth revin sage ohio rg clowned and hacks t bug darkest knights dylan george seriously i love you guys i i seriously you guys make this fun debos holdos good to see you again side show nav thanks so much and as well as amanda thanks so much for helping us get this conference put together and side show nav thank you especially for doing so much you have done a ton and thanks for your patience with me as i've been oftentimes maybe a little i'm like i'm pretty i'm a little burnt out but we're going to make it folks i'm going to get some rest and we're going to be good so i love love you guys it's already 1023 year i got to go i got to get to sleep earlier so i love you thanks for everything and keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable we are excited to see you next time my dear friends and you guys seriously i just love it you guys you guys make it fun for me so take care and we will see you next time amazing beta