 One point that for me was was very interesting. You said about the cognitive bias, but you said on the Western world So, yeah What is the rule of culture? Yeah, I'm saying different societies in the way people in the way and for example large companies operating globally Yeah, it's maybe the solution that fits in Switzerland. For sure. May not fit For sure, right. What is your would be? And I don't know. I mean again when we look at the when we look at the when we look at when we look at The field of essentially cultural psychology How there are different kind of schema that different nationalities bring to literally how they see the world So there's some famous work from a guy named Richard Nisbet at the University of Michigan where he took so I'm going to use Americans as the quintessential example of the West and I'm going to use Japanese as a quintessential example of the East and so even literally how how they see the world on So you show so Nisbet did some work where he would show an aquarium to a group of American to Americans and then he would show it to Japanese so and the aquarium it happened to have a very you know It's like a single lot of fish, but a single large fish and so what do the Americans see they say I see a giant goldfish right right there. What did the Japanese see described the scene? Oh, I see some plants in the background as part of the and so you have a greater move toward Context and a greater move toward basically background and foreground You see it in the work of Michelle Gelfand who talks about certain cultures and it goes directly to explore and exploit Certain cultures being tight in certain cultures being loose certain cultures being very very heavily rule-based Certain cultures being less rule-based more norm based more more value based one isn't better than the other It's simply different ways different ways of doing things and so I think what we need in to me The very best innovators are people who are Multis okay multi in any in any sense multi cultural and by cultural. I don't even mean East and West I mean I understand tight cultures. I understand loose cultures. I see the background. I see the foreground I know that personality matters. I also know that context matters and then it goes into You know one of the things that always amazes me being in a place like Finland as an American is How many people are multilingual in a way that they are not in the United States? And so it's really just a matter of more. I think that the key attribute of the personal level is multi-ness like Alex You know he's Swiss, but you know you talk to Alex like okay. Where is this dude from you know? And he's like well, he's from everywhere And and that's I think that's how you want I think that's that's what I think that's what we want at the at the individual level the ability to Be multi to move from across boundaries to understand different contexts and not say How can you possibly describe that aquarium that way? That's wrong One isn't wrong in the same way that it's not better to be an explorer or an exploiter They're both good. We just have to understand they operate by a different set of rules I think that's interesting because the challenge is actually very similar across the globe when you become an established company Yeah, your challenge is to reinvent yourself, but how you're gonna respond to that There's not one single answer So if you look at Amazon, they don't they actually do a lot of internal innovation a lot of internal Experiments and they don't do a lot of acquisitions, you know now they made some big ones of course, right? That's very different from a 10 cent or Alibaba that invest in hundreds of startups So it's a different response to the same kind of challenge that you need to explore, right? So we know what kind of actions can be taken, but it's a mix of actions is about inventing. It's about exploring It's about acquiring it's about investing So I think what we need to get a little bit better at is using the full spectrum and in some cultures one spectrum We'll tend towards this side where more context in another spectrum more, you know the foreground So I think we're getting a lot more professional in how to respond to this challenge of exploration Which is actually very similar once you're an established company You have to reinvent yourself because the world is changing, but you will react differently in Japan in China or in the US or in Finland, right? Yeah, my final question. It's about going back to this discussion on people I think that we are raising a new generation that is absolutely ready to explore I'm saying for my family, so the young generation, but what happens with, I would say, this middle? You know, someone that it's not at the end of the career, but it's not young And these people that were raised with the full concept of exploitation You need to increase, have control and suddenly the world is shifting, say, oh god What I was expecting it to last 20 years, it's only lasting two So what would be the message because this is still an absolutely massive part of our workforce And not only companies in the governments and everywhere So what would be our advice and what would be our support for the leaders of these companies to hold on this, I would say, frozen middle, you know, these people there? That's a hard question, I'll give that one to you I think it's a brilliant question actually, I think it's an enormously important question Let me offer two responses to that One of them was something we haven't talked about yet, but is I think both sort of undergirds A lot of what Alex is saying and also rises on top of it, which is that And we heard about it in some of the remarks today You can't get any of this done without a context, an atmosphere of psychological safety And I think that what those folks are looking for, the people you're talking about in that middle Is they feel extraordinarily psychologically unsafe And so when people feel unsafe, they narrow their focus, they reduce their risk And so it's a cultural problem in organizations of increasing Psychological safety, particularly for that group The second thing I think is programmatic And I think it's a huge opportunity for firms all over the world Which is this, when we think about, we have a very, very large cohort of people Who are in the workplace, who are in their 50s and 60s Who still have literally decades of good work left in them Who have no intention of retiring And yet the pathways for them are not great Because only one person gets to be CEO And I think the opportunity here is for something that we haven't done yet in organizations Which is mid-career mentoring We do mentoring for people at the beginning of their careers We do no mid-career mentoring And I think that that is a massive opportunity for firms Is to establish mentors for people in mid-career And say what does your 50 years old What does the next 15 or 20 years of your work life look like And let me give you some pathways to it And I think the combination of psychological safety Which is atmospheric, environmental, and mid-career mentoring Which is much more programmatic Is a really, really powerful combination I think the next step even to go further Is maybe we need completely different organizational structures So there's not just the way up But that we have project, organization, things coming and going I do think that a lot of the organizations that are They've been around to take WL Gore They've always had new ways of organizing There is a CEO, but there's no titles There's maybe three titles in a company So they continuously change And they create almost like an internal job market Where people feel that safety and they move around Obviously it does create challenges Because you don't want to be too laid back Because otherwise people are just going to hang out And you're still a company, you need to create value So you need to find that right organizational structure Absolutely So people stay motivated Because they want new challenges And the new challenges are not always related To going up in the hierarchy So Roger Martin, number one business thinker of the world Talks about that a lot That maybe today we need to find new ways Of rewarding people It's not just the hierarchy up It's more challenging privacy Absolutely, absolutely And that's partly, it's structural It's also just being a little bit more inventive On what jobs are What jobs, jobs doesn't, some tech firms do this already You know where you have someone who's an extremely accomplished Say bench scientist who doesn't want to become a She doesn't want to become a manager So we make her a senior scientist Or some companies have fellows or things like that So again, let's go back to this idea of psychological safety At the cohort that you're talking about People feel psychologically unsafe The people you're talking about feel psychologically unsafe Because they're 50 years old And they don't see a path It's like getting up They see a wall They see darkness It's like getting up in the middle of the night And there's no light in front of you You can only see this far ahead And so if you shine a light on that And show people alternative paths And bring in that mentor as a guide Then I think you have a real opportunity To reap some incredible talent there Yeah, yeah And you've said it before We need to use that talent Because there's a lot of knowledge And that comes back to experimenting Not just exploration around business ideas I think the next big wave Is going to be about management innovation Now this is nothing new Gary Hamel has been talking about this for a long time But I think that is becoming a lot more relevant Because we're seeing these crazy challenges One is internal workforce The other is the youth The other is the environment The society So without some kind of organizational innovation New ways of organizing I think we're not going to be able to tackle these challenges Right? So there is something going on brewing I think we're not quite there yet Some organizations have done it Gore has been around for a long time And they're not small It's 12,000 people or more And they're trying this, right? So I think there is this kind of phase Where we might see more of that happening In established companies Look, thank you Thank you both Wonderful talk Thank you for your time My pleasure Your talk Thank you, Ricardo Looking forward to see you both on the next one