 As we begin the second year of COVID-19 restrictions on farms today's webinar explores how to better support temporary foreign workers freedom of movement. This includes the right to move freely off of the job site during off hours and the responsibility to do so safely. We will also be discussing open work permits. To start our discussion today, it's my pleasure to introduce Jennifer Rajsekar. Jennifer is the manager of social support service. Social support services of the neighborhood organization or TNO, a partner in Kairos is. Kairos Canada's empowering temporary for workers during COVID-19 project. Jennifer will be joined by her colleagues at TNO, Stephanie mail and Carolyn Watson. So. I'm sorry. Thank you, David. And thank you everyone for participating in today's webinar. We have a bit of a technical problem in our end at TNO with the server and issues. So this is my third location from the morning changing one place to another. Just wanted to say who we are at TNO is a service organization, not only for settlement. We also provide services right across from employment, health, housing and early childhood education. So we provide services from zero to all the way end of life support service some program we provide throughout Ontario and some nationally. Temporary foreign workers program. We worked in a nationally in caregivers program. And this is our pleasure working with Kairos as a partner to work with the agricultural temporary foreign workers. And hoping that my colleagues, Carolyn Watson and Stephanie will share and will stay back and answer if you have any other questions. All the materials is it's taken from or provided by service Canada and shared by Kairos. And maybe if you have any questions about TNO, our services in details, we can also connect. Thank you. Maybe Stephanie, you can take over. Sure. Thank you, Jennifer. And thank you to David, Connie and Alfredo at Kairos for inviting us here to talk about this important issue today and thank you to all of you for joining us. So today we're going to be talking about temporary foreign workers freedom of movement. So the COVID-19 pandemic requires significant adjustments to address public health imperatives made by employers specifically. And the government of Canada recognizes the extraordinary effort and commitment by employers, government partners and community organizations to protect the health and safety of temporary foreign workers while they are in Canada. And here specifically as the pandemic unfolded the government of Canada received numerous allegations that some employers were requiring their temporary foreign work staff to remain on the property where they live and work outside of the mandatory quarantine or self isolation periods. So in a reaction to that, the government of Canada provided the following reminders and a notice regarding temporary foreign workers freedom of movement. And so the reminders are as follows. So while in Canada temporary foreign workers have the same rights and protections as Canadians and permanent residents under applicable federal, provincial and territorial labor and employment standards. And this is to say that an employer cannot restrict a temporary foreign workers off duty conduct, except when, for example, such movement is restricted by a government issued order, such as those related to states of emergency or public health. So if there's lockdown measures in place for all residents of a region, those would certainly apply to temporary foreign workers, but in a region where there was not those types of measures for residents temporary foreign workers cannot be made exclusion. So the temporary foreign worker program does not provide employers with the right to limit the free movement of workers such as movement off the property where workers live and or work. So like all workers temporary foreign workers are free to run errands access services and enjoy their time off when not in quarantine self isolating or otherwise restricted from doing so as per government laws and orders. Limiting a temporary foreign workers movement may be considered abuse under the immigration and refugee protection regulations and is a violation of the temporary foreign worker programs conditions. So examples would include threatening or intimidating a worker to not leave the location where they live or work. And then imposing policies or agreements, whether they be oral or written, coerced or mandated by the employer that restrict a worker's ability to leave their housing or work location. And this includes situations where a worker may feel compelled to agree and or abide by a policy or request out of fear of reprisal. Workers signing a paper agreeing to this kind of condition does not make it legal. So, physically confining a worker to their housing or work site without a legal authority such as a government or court issued order. Government laws or orders may require employers to implement policies and practices that do restrict a worker's movement, such as within their housing or workplace but in these cases employers will be required to provide proof to service Canada that such a policy or practice adheres to laws or orders issued by a government authority. So employers are strongly encouraged to be transparent with their employees about government imposed restrictions on and off the work site, and to share relevant records, such as public health orders with workers. So in the case that an employer is found to be non compliant with the temporary foreign worker programs conditions they could be subject to a series of consequences, and they range so starting with warnings, administrative monetary penalties. There is a permanent ban from the temporary foreign worker program and international mobility program. The publication of their name and address on the immigration refugees and Citizenship Canada public website with details of the violations and or consequences so the shameless, or the revocation or suspension of previously issued LMAs or labor market impact assessments. It's also important that workers are aware of and do follow public health requirements and guidelines in order to ensure that they take the steps necessary to minimize risk of infection and spread of COVID when they are out in the community. And there are a variety of resources that Service Canada has put together for temporary foreign workers about how to protect themselves and others from COVID-19 through the following links. There are a couple on the government website and I believe that they have just been updated today with most recent information. And so those are important resources for workers to have about their responsibilities and what public health measures look like in their community. So here a worker is suffering from abuse in the workplace. There are a couple of two real recourses one is the tip line and I didn't put that up on a slide and perhaps should have but there is a tip line that workers can call to report. And it can be done confidentially. And that's done federally. In terms of tangible actions workers can apply for an open work permit for vulnerable workers. And this is available to workers on employer specific work permits who are experiencing abuse or who are at risk of abuse. They may be eligible to receive what's called an open work permit that is exempt from the labor market impact assessment process. In order to qualify abuse has to be proved and abuse consists of any of the following and this is a short list and my colleague Carolyn Watson is going to go into a bit more detail in a few moments but so physical abuse including assault and forcible confinement as sexual abuse including sexual contact without consent psychological abuse including threats and intimidation and financial abuse including fraud and extortion. And so in order to qualify for this permit workers must produce evidence of abuse. So when applying for the open work permit the migrant worker must describe the abuse or risk of abuse they face by submitting a letter of explanation. There is a letter statement or report from an abuse support organization a medical doctor a healthcare professional or other such entity a sworn statement or affidavit by the applicant, a copy of an official complaint form filed with an enforcement agency, or supporting or additional materials such as a victim impact statement hard copies of email messages photos showing injuries or working conditions as well as witness testimonies. There are several steps to applying for an open work permit in a situation of abuse a worker must apply directly to IRCC for an open work permit by filling out an online application form. They must include in their online application supporting evidence as I just mentioned, of the abuse. They must have a valid work permit that is LMII required, or have a valid work permit that is LMII exempt and employer specific. I'm a name. They have to be authorized to work without a work permit under implied status as a result of applying for a renewal of one of these types of work permits. And that's it for my portion I'm going to now hand over to to Carolyn Watson and then the project coordinator who explained a little bit more about the open work permit. Thank you Stephanie. Okay, I will try and share my screen now. Well, I can do one or the other but I can't do both so. This is my problem here. Okay, can you see that in. Okay. Okay, so I'm going to talk a bit more in detail about the open permit for vulnerable workers. So, the open work permit for vulnerable workers recognizes that every worker in Canada is entitled to a safe and healthy work environment. So if workers are in an abusive situation they can apply for an open work permit for vulnerable workers. And this work permit will allow them to work for almost any employer in Canada. And its purpose is to help them leave an abusive situation to find a new job. There's no fee to apply. The permit is temporary but it should give you give them enough time to find a new employer and apply for a new work permit so it can be issued for up to 12 months. So the goals of the permit are to provide migrant workers who are experiencing abuse or are at risk of experiencing abuse. A specific means to leave their employer by obtaining work authorization to work for another employer. And it's also aiming to decrease the risk of migrant workers in Canada who leave their jobs and work without authorization as a result of abuse in a workplace. It also aims to facilitate the participation of workers experiencing abuse or at risk of abuse in inspections of their former employer recruiter or both. It also aims to help migrant workers assist authorities if required by reducing the perceived risk and fear of losing a work permit and being removed from Canada. They aren't migrant workers who apply for this permit are not required to assist authorities in order to obtain the open work permit, but they do hope that some of them will. So those who can benefit from the open work permit for vulnerable workers are migrant workers in Canada who hold a valid LMI required work permit or a valid LMI exempt employer specific work permit so they must be tied to a particular employer in order to apply. Migrant workers who have applied for renewal of their employer specific work permit and are currently authorized to work in Canada. These are people whose current work permits have not expired yet. So the types of things that are considered abuse I think Stephanie went over some of these but physical abuse so it does include assault enforceable confinement and more specifically. There's quite a list of things hitting beating slapping punching choking burning pushing or shoving a worker in a way that results or could result in injury. And confining a workers and restricting their freedom of movement. Living conditions in which employer provided accommodations are unsafe or unsanitary or pose a risk to the workers health. Forcing or pressuring a worker to work under conditions that are unsafe or pose a risk to their health. And forcing a worker to engage in drug or alcohol use or illegal behavior against their will and possibly creating dependencies on that substance. Sexual abuse which entails quite a number of things as well such as forcing or manipulating a worker into having sex or performing sexual acts. Forcing a worker to perform unsafe or degrading sexual acts using physical force to compel worker to engage in a sexual act against their will. Using physical force weapons or objects in non consensual sexual acts involving other people in non consensual acts. Exposing suggesting attempting or completing a sexual act involving a worker who is unable to understand the nature or condition of the act unable to decline participation or unable to communicate unwillingness to engage in the sexual act. For example because of illness disability the influence of drugs or alcohol intimidation or pressure. Psychological abuse is also considered abuse so this could be insulting intimidating humiliating humiliating harassing threatening, including with respect to immigration status or deportation. Name calling yelling at blaming shaming ridiculing disrespecting or criticizing a worker. It also includes controlling what a worker can and cannot do. Threatening a worker with murder, intimidating threatening or harming a worker with a knife gun or other object or weapon and using religious or spiritual beliefs to manipulate dominate or control a worker. Financial abuse could include willfully or repeatedly not paying wages owed to the worker. Stealing or taking a worker's money salary checks or coercing them into giving giving these things up controlling or limiting the workers financial resources, withholding money or credit cards, exploiting of workers financial resources, requiring a worker to deposit money into their bank account for fraudulent purposes. closely monitoring how a worker spends money, destroying a worker's property, spending a worker's money without their consent. So, how abuse could look may look in the workplace the employer recruiter or both may have course the migrant worker into paying job placement and recruitment fees. The worker is repeatedly harassed, for example, unwanted physical or verbal behavior that is offending or humiliating by a co worker in the workplace. The migrant worker is threatened by their employer if they complain about their work conditions. The migrant worker has exited an abusive situation, but would be at risk if the of the abuse if they returned. It could also look like forcing or pressuring the migrant worker to perform work that goes against the conditions of their work permit, such as working for a different employer than stated on the permit or performing different job duties. Recognizing that this jeopardizes a workers status in Canada is a form of coerced engagement in illegal activity, and maybe accompanied by or enable further threats intimidation and abuse. The migrant worker may not be directly experiencing abuse, but maybe in a situation where their coworkers are being abused by their employer. And this puts them at risk of experiencing an abusive situation. And there are specific context, or specific types of abuse in the context of COVID-19. So the employer willfully does not provide wages during the mandatory quarantine or isolation period upon entry to Canada. And this is required of employers under the temporary foreign worker program and international mobility program. Or if the employer tries to recuperate the wages from the worker during this time. If workers are forced or pressured to perform work that violates the conditions of a mandatory quarantine or isolation period under federal or provincial jurisdiction during this time. And also if they're forced, if they're forced to or pressured to work when showing symptoms of COVID-19 that's considered abuse. And workers are pressuring them to work with co workers who should be in quarantine or symptom or are symptomatic of COVID-19 is also considered abuse. Preventing workers from seeking medical assistance, not providing workers with adequate tools and working conditions to implement public health and social distancing protocols as instructed by the chief public health officer or provincial health authorities is considered abuse and retributive action taken against workers for taking sick leave or refusing to work in unsafe working conditions, which also includes termination is considered abuse during this particular context. Abusive living conditions are also considered part of an abusive situation so an employer who does not provide appropriate and adequate accommodations for quarantining self isolation or prevention of virus spread. Is considered abuse and this would include not providing separate accommodations for workers who are subject to quarantine and workers who are not. And failing to provide accommodations that allow workers quarantine together to respect requirements of the quarantine period, including maintaining appropriate distance from other persons and avoiding contact with vulnerable populations. It would also include failing to provide accommodations that allow for isolation in the event that a worker becomes symptomatic. This would include a private, needing a private bedroom and bathroom and failing to provide workers with cleaning products to prevent the spread and shared accommodations. So the, if the employer prevents workers from obtaining essential items during the quarantine or isolation such as groceries or medication, or fails to provide adequate arrangements, such as assisting with pickup or delivery, this is also considered abuse. Now there's a particular category that is part that would enable workers to apply for a vulnerable work permit that falls under trafficking. And it's a little bit more of a complicated situation but it would involve three key elements. So it has to involve a physical act so the recruitment, transportation or harboring of a person. It has to be accomplished through means so through threats, force, coercion or deception, and it has to be for a specific person, a specific purpose such as valid exploitation of victims. There's quite a bit more detail on this issue so if this is something that is a concern for anyone it would be useful to actually just, you know, put the worker in contact with someone who can assist more specifically. So in terms of applying for the open work permit I think Stephanie mentioned this there are two things that need to be done. So the worker must apply directly to immigration refugees and citizenship Canada for an open work permit online. And they must include in their application supporting evidence of the abuse, which I'll go into a little more detail in a minute. Applications for the open work permit for vulnerable workers have to be made in Canada so they cannot be made at a port of entry with CDSA or Canada Border Services agencies. And the evidence that they accept with the application so a letter statement or report from an abuse support organization, a medical doctor a healthcare professional or other such entity, a sworn statement or an affidavit by the applicant, and a copy of an official complaint filed with an enforcement agency so this could be police or CBS a or a copy of an official complaint completed by the migrant worker and submitted to a provincial enforcement agency, such as an employment standards branch. We also look for supporting or additional materials such as victim impact statements hard copies of email messages photos showing injuries or working conditions and witness testimonies. Part of the application will involve an interview or at least it could involve an interview. The immigration officers may choose to interview the worker and this is up to their discretion so it may or may not happen. They may directly with the worker or with the workers representative such as a lawyer. And as I said it is up to the discretion of the processing agent whether they will interview, but it could be done in person it could be done online or done via phone, or they could just wave the interview. The members who are currently in Canada are also eligible to obtain an open work permit if the main if the principal applicant. So the worker has been issued an open work permit under the program. Family members would have their work permits issued under the same program as the worker and for the same duration as the worker. So this is the principal applicant the main person who was issued the work permit in the first place. It would be until the expire. It would be in the same duration or the expiry of the passport, whichever is earlier dependent children who are of working age are also eligible to obtain an open work permit under the same program and for the same duration. New visitor or study permits may also be issued for dependent children of the worker currently in Canada, if they are accompanying the principal migrant worker. And family members are also exempt from paying the fees. So because this application is so complex and requires a considerable amount of documentation it is important that anyone considering these applications seek legal counsel. Legal advice and represent representation can be obtained through a variety of areas legally in Ontario is probably the one of the best places to start. In the case of women the Assaulted Women's Helpline may be useful as well. The Border Services Agency and IRCC also state that they will support these applications but it's more in terms of technical support rather than providing a lot of assistance and for people who don't speak English or French. It's going to be quite difficult to navigate these these services. There is also the tip line that Stephanie mentioned that I didn't put down either. But that might also be useful. And thank you. And I think if anyone have questions to ask, or also we just wanted to talk about when you're helping with applications or when we're engaging employees to be safety and safety of the employees. Employees is also important. Unless you know and aware of all the circumstances how you are engaging them so to put them in risk. So we thought to find the right referrals and navigating the system with clients to make sure that their safety is also important before we provide the services and to put that as because it's not simple as each individual cases might be different. And to make sure that we are doing it in a safer way to protect the client. Thanks so much to everyone from TNO that was very informative. It's a lot to take in but I think it's really important information to have especially when considering the specific instances of COVID-19 but also looking at the broader picture of the freedom of moving between job sites, but also the particular issue of movement in a time of COVID when there are stay at home orders that would seem to support keeping people on specific sites so it's good to know that it's good to affirm that there is that ability to leave the site and needs to be that ability to travel outside of just being on the farm site for the entire season. We're going to take a few questions while we have all three of our TNO presenters here so if anybody has questions arising from those presentations before we move on to our next presenter. Oh, we have one from Susan. It just seemed to me that the consequences to employers were kind of like oh darn. You know they don't seem very serious and at the same time it did appear to me pretty challenging to a worker who has who is experiencing abuse to quote prove it. It's good that it includes making a statement but even having to notarize that seems a bit challenging you know so I don't know can you comment on that kind of apparent imbalance there. I think I think everyone who, you know, works with this works in any aspect of immigration. There's consensus that this is an important step but it really doesn't solve the issues. You know there's still a lot of room for abuse because there isn't a lot of, you know, regulation of the workplace. So there aren't enough inspections. There's a lot of oversight. And the onus there is a huge onus on the worker to, you know, do all of this while being abused so they're, you know, concerned they're afraid they're worried, and yet they have to go and track down all this information and make all these statements and produce evidence and things like that so I mean I think in terms of what we can do we can support them should they want to do this. In terms of, you know, helping with logistics whether that's, you know, getting to a legal aid clinic to make an affidavit collecting evidence, explaining, you know, the steps involved and that kind of thing but it's still, you know, very difficult and, and, you know, we're even now we're hearing things and people don't want to report because they're afraid so, you know, they know that it's happening and they know that they're being abused but they're going to stick it out because they, you know, they need the job at the end of the day. Now in the season we are working through a lot of people. Clearly, if you look at the list, so many of them are we all know it's violated right whether it's housing condition, living condition related to covert there are so many. But when you've given them the information to the workers and, and at the end they said no, I would like Carolyn mentioned that I rather not to stick it because they worried about their income. Second thing is also they might not get a chance to come back again. They've been threatened by and, and, and so that's why we need to be very, very careful before we put we need to explain to the workers what the situation is going to be giving all the information all the resources as possible to make them the decision so to to because sometimes the workers also might have the collecting evidence it's not that easy to prove sometimes so we are hearing a lot of time and we also encouraging them to to call the tip line to to report. But at the end of the day it's a or I'll, I'll take it as school and one day at a time sort of thing, but it's it's sad to see that seems so. I have a question. I'm from TNO as well that was a great presentation you guys thank you so much. I just wonder, is there more regulations we can advocate to put on to the employers. So they're compliant and it reduces the the situations where there is, you know, abuse happening. I don't know if that's one perspective. And the other thing I'm just wondering from what you guys are hearing is there are a lot of situations where you mentioned the accommodation that allows for isolation I'm wondering if you're hearing a lot of that as is an issue for the migrant workers. Thank you. So thanks for that question parallel and it. One of the issues around employer compliance is that many of the conditions that qualifies abuse are in fact compliant with the housing guidelines because they themselves are so loose. And there's just the legislation around them isn't really legislation it doesn't have much teeth. And so that's one of the issues. And then when it comes to issues of abuse in the context of COVID we know that that can manifest itself differently in a work environment versus a living environment and then we're looking at whether that's a ministry of So it's the fractioning off of inspection spaces to that is part of the problem some of the protections of workers fall through those gaps. If an inspector from the public health department is coming to look at the condition of housing and not able or doesn't have the mandate to or the checkbox on the clipboard to look at other things on the site. So that's one of the biggest gaps. They're not just codified in the ways that the program is administered but the real life consequences are that there are invisible areas that this kind of abuse thrives in. And so employer compliance, unfortunately can still be, you know, and compliant employers can be providing conditions that meet abusive standards. So that's the one part and what was the second part of your question and I'm sorry. Like, the accommodation, you know, employers are required to provide accommodation to allow for isolation if that's a real challenge and not happening or what. Yeah, it's a challenge in two ways it's a challenge from employers logistically operationally and actually to source the space and find the ways to adhere to these protocols, but from the worker perspective, the powerlessness of being a worker patient, who's moved down from one location to another depending on the results of one test or another has given rise to an incredible mental health catastrophe for workers who find themselves arriving under scary and intimidating conditions and then they themselves or a coworker on route has now found themselves to test positive and farms then scrambled to then parse out and isolate everybody individually, which then when you're struggling already with these mental health transitions. You're all alone and in some cases with farm workers that looks like all alone in a rural area with no Wi Fi and no ability to access, not just family and forms of support but ways of sourcing information that might quell your fears as well. And then enter in their language barriers and other power dynamics and it makes quarantine and isolation a very, very, very distressing situation for many of our worker friends. Thank you Stephen, Carol and and and Jenny for the for the presentation. It's, it's really, really very informative. And I just want to add a little bit of a context to in terms of where these regulations or this, you know, came from the open work permit for vulnerable workers actually came about in 2018 or 2019 when you know, the living caregiver program or the pilot program has been changed because of the or or updated because of the, you know, the basically the complaints and you know the experiences that caregivers have had with their employers particularly since they are you living in the house with the employers right, but within the context of coven. This is very much tied to the freedom of mobility because of hearing a lot that you know, during the outbreak, farmers or employers started to impose this condition for workers that are not allowed to go out of the farms, you know, that it actually impacted their ability to buy their own food to send money to their families to the countries where they're from, and other, you know, other aspects of their rights to be able to do those things. So, it is really true, it is very true that, you know, to honest of proving that you're abused and being able to access this open work permit really lies on the workers and we've done a lot of advocacy around this and saying that this is not going to work, because we know for a fact that workers are not going to complain because their work permit and employment is tied to the employers and what if upon investigation the abuse is not proven to be true. So that worker is tied to go back to the employer and suffer the consequences right. So, a part of the project, you know, that that we are doing now is providing that support, you know, to the workers, making them understand and build the capacity to be able to say so that they are abused and their mobility is curtailed. And again, the support should come from us, from community organizations and so forth, because as we've seen from Stephanie and Carolyn's presentation, the list of what they need to do and the list of what they need to prove is very intimidating. So, so I guess it is a challenge, you know, to all of us how to provide how to provide this accompaniment, so that these are not just things and papers or policies and papers, but that really workers who are under these situations and facing challenges and difficulties are are provided support and being able to exercise the rights. So, it's, you know, leading us back to now that, you know, employers can also say that, oh, this, you know, we're not allowing them to go out so that they, they, they don't get infected and bring it to the bank house and then it will infect everyone. But, but there's that fine line right in terms of protection and curtailment of their mobility or their freedom or right to mobility. Yep. Absolutely. Thanks for that Connie. We are going to take more questions in a little bit but our next speakers here. So, welcome, Max Scott. It's my pleasure to introduce you. Max Scott works for the multi ethnic law firm Karanza LLP as an immigration consultant and is a member of no one is illegal and the Ontario coalition against poverty. Max Scott back enjoys spending time with his family, his collective house, happy hour, science fiction and bad suits, not necessarily in that order. Thank you so much for coming today. And here is Max Scott. Hi, hi folks it's an honor to be here. I had a lot of respect for Cairo's over decades actually. I wanted to live in a collective house actually with the one of the one of the former eds of Cairo's Connie that was very educational what you're what you were saying. To be honest, I missed a lot of the TNO presentation, because I had a client in, but I feel like in a lot of ways you guys probably know more than I do. So I hope that what I'm going to add in won't be counterproductive. Because I'm going to talk from the law side. And then also from the actress side. So, I was focusing on what's happening to workers. I thought was really interesting that you're talking about the Connie and I think this was you about the new open work permits for workers who are being exploited and everything you said hits head on. What struck to my mind when you're talking is that it's the same with the new open work or the new temporary resident permits for women who are survivors of abuse in that even though the website looks really nice. It takes a lot of ideas from women's abuse groups. And just like the work permit, you still have to prove it. And that's really, really a daunting task. And in the end, like, I've actually been working with one of the and it's the same as well. I should add for the human trafficking, a temporary resident permits, which are permits that allow you a temporary status that allows you to get a work permit. An open work permit, and can allow you to get health care. And I've been working with one of the people may not remember this but there's a famous case up in Barry. And I've been working with one of the one of the people who went through the trafficking there. And even though two police forces have laid charges of trafficking. She was refused a temporary resident permit because the immigration officer decide there wasn't enough proof that somehow they could second guess the cops, and that there wasn't enough proof that there had actually been trafficking. So, you're also talking like it's a very, it's a very discretionary instrument, any of these three, whether it's those temporary work resident permits, or the open work permit for people who've been, you know, mistreated by their employers. It's a discretionary instrument, which means if you get the wrong officer, you get denied. And the person next to in line with the same story may even may get accepted. So, you know, I think there needs to be some kind of oversight on this because you're talking about very serious cases. And I mean much like CBS a, there really is no oversight at the immigration refugee citizenship Canada. So I hope this isn't too off topic. I was going to go into mobility of workers. So, technically mobility rights are guaranteed by section six of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. But what it says in there specifically speaks to permanent residents and citizens. However, because of the famous case sing the Charter does apply in a limited context to foreign nationals and temporary residents would, which would include include workers. Now, the way of course they avoid this is they tie everything to the employer. And I think TNO you probably spoke about this at length so I won't get into it much but you know they're not saying you can't travel to BC they're just saying that you'll lose your work permit because you won't be with your employer who's on your work permit. Basically becomes indentured labor. And I'm sure TNO touched on this but for almost all temporary workers in non professional jobs, or skilled jobs, there is no pathway to permanent resident status. Only caregivers of a pathway to permanent residency. And that pathway is very difficult. They have to prove language and it's a high language bar. They have to have a post secondary credential. And the only reason that they even have the right to permanent residency is because over 20 to 30 years, they've been fighting they've been organizing, and they won those rights through their organizing. And I was going to take you. Can I share my screen here. Or no, I don't know if I can share screen. I've been doing a lot of work with this group. They're part of the migrant workers Alliance for Change. These are caregivers and former caregivers, and they are speaking out their hiring, and they are also doing case work so I've had a number of referrals from them. And they're doing their best to help caregivers get get status but I wanted to put this up there because I think one of the most inspirational struggles I've ever seen in my 25 years of doing immigration law and immigrant rights work. Has been in Canada has been the caregiver, the caregiver organizing, and they, they win, they win all the time. Moving along. So, the problem is with this employer, and I'm sure TNO went into this but with the employer dependent work permits is that foreign workers are stuck in a job. If they complain or unionize or harassed or sexually harassed, they can lose their work permit and have to leave Canada. And I can't tell you how many clients I've had referred to me through the caregiver action center, which were women who are being sexually harassed by their boss. It's not as bad now because they're not required to live in the home, but they're still in a very vulnerable position with men when they're when they're working as an in home caregiver. So, you know, you're talking to a lot of problems I know you guys talked about the whole thing with the problem with with with seasonal agricultural workers and other workers who speak out about their employer. So, it, this really basically limits and controls their mobility rights. COVID's been hard. I'm sure not any, all of us have experienced the side effects whether having had it, having a friend co worker loved one get it, knowing someone who died, or even just the mental health effects of living under lockdown. So, a farm worker who's told that they can't leave the farm in areas where because of the seasonal agricultural worker program infection rates are very high and I'll bring you to a another. Sorry, another website. Hang on. Sorry, I'm not very good with technology. Oh, good. You can see it. This is the Windsor and Essex County, which is one of the largest farm worker areas. This is their, their stats. And I can't pull yesterday I tried to pull up the map, and I couldn't do it. But they're there in there in lockdown the same way we are there in gray. So, when you're there and I mean TNO talked about this better than I did. You can't send money to your family. Sometimes you're being forced to work, even though you're supposed to be in quarantine, where quarantine is basically almost impossible because you're living in shacks. You know, it's, it's, it's extremely, extremely difficult. Now originally farm workers were told that they couldn't leave the farm. My understanding is that that's been eased. But the flip side, what they're doing now is they're stopping workers from coming. What they're saying is you can't come unless you get the vaccine, and unless you can afford three days in a hotel, once you get to Canada. And the employers, as I understand it, and people from TNO can correct me if I'm wrong, but the employers are largely not paying for those hotel visits. And as they said earlier, the hotels are pretty much completely booked in, in the farm worker areas. So, you know, you're talking about being unable to even have somewhere to quarantine. Now, in the good news, they can now access the vaccine. But yeah, in the bad news, I'll bring you to an article here. The COVID testing rules are keeping migrant farm workers out of Canada. So they're kind of, you know, they're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place. At first we wanted them so badly that we were forcing them to work, even though they should have been in quarantine. And now we're saying, well, you can't come unless you are willing to pay for your own quarantine and your own mandatory testing before you come. So these are exorbitant as Chris says, and Chris is a wonderful guy from Hustizia. These are, these are exorbitant costs and the risks that they are taking to their health to get the test are simply not acceptable. And, you know, and they're basically being asked to take these risks in order to go to come to Canada and feed their families. And, you know, it's, it's just not right. Now, I think in your, you know, when you emailed us about coming about speaking, you asked about solutions. And I'm going to bring you to the migrant workers alliance for change section on farm workers. And the migrant workers alliance for change is an Ontario wide group of migrant workers. And they have a whole section on farm workers. And as you can see here, they have farm workers speaking out. They have posts they've been doing demonstrations. But one of the things they call for is not only, you know, to to expand the mobility freedom to expand the rights on the job under a work permit. But what they're really calling for, and I believe this is the right way to go is permanent residency on arrival. And permanent residency on arrival would mean that foreign workers would have the same rights as as anyone in this country. They would have the right to move they would have the right to leave. They may be put on conditions that they have to work in a specific industry, much like the open work permits that in home caregivers are getting. But they would still have many more rights than they have now. And we wouldn't be we wouldn't be dealing with this three tier system that we have in this country. Well, actually it's four tier of like citizens at the top of the pyramid, permanent residents underneath, foreign workers and foreign workers, students, foreign visitors underneath, and non non status people at the bottom. And of course, indigenous people somewhere else, but also pretty much at the bottom. So, giving them permanent residency on arrival would help to break down that pyramid. And I think it's not only best for the workers, but I think having a society that has different tiers of rights isn't helpful or healthy for anyone. I mean if we look at the fact that right now it's extremely difficult for non status people to get vaccinated in Toronto, because they're still asking for OHIP and ID. We're looking at something that endangers the whole community, not just those non status people. And those non status people have human rights and human dignity as well. So the migrant works rights network or sorry the migrant workers Alliance for Change and the caregiver action center are both part of a group that I'm part of through my group known as legal called the migrant rights network. And this is their website. They have a petition here. I can actually put their website in the chat if people want. Because then you can see it. No, it doesn't let me do the chat one sharing screen. I'll have to stop sharing screen late. Oh wait, here we go. Okay, I'm gonna have to stop sharing a bit. And yeah, they're saying that the seasonal agricultural worker program needs to be needs to be changed. They put that out on the 55th anniversary of the program on March 31. Just last week. They are also saying that, you know, the closing of the borders is has not been good for refugees and migrant workers and international students. And that we need to make sure that there's vaccines for all people regardless of status. And that can be as, you know, that can be as convoluted I guess, as like asking for the ID, even though there is no real requirement under law for them to have ID, can share people from going in the fact that the Ministry of Health, despite our demands has refused to say whether they will share information with Canada border services agency. All these create fear, which means that people don't go in for the vaccines. So I would encourage people to check out the migrant rights network website. I would also encourage people. Oh, look, someone else did it. Thanks, Sean. And, and I would encourage people to get active because we can do more together. I'm not sure if Cairo is a member of the migrant rights network but it would be something to look into if you're not. And any of your organizations. And barring further questions as we say in the court. I'm good. Thank you so much. What was the organization you talked about before the migrant rights network. There was two. There's the caregivers action center. And there's the migrant workers Alliance for change I'll get you their websites. And I'll put them in the chat. So I'm not very good with technology. Technology has been giving us trouble. But you know, it's a constant thing these days. But thank you so much for, for speaking on this. I think you raised a lot of really important points and it's great to have places to go to for us as individuals to participate but also sort of expanding the network of support as well so yeah. Thank you again. Thank you. I mean, any, any, sorry, just one small other thing, any, any changes that have ever come in a positive way to immigration legislation in this country have been because of struggle. And we can, we can do it. Absolutely. All right, so if anybody has questions. You can do as Connie has just done and we'll get turned second but you can raise your hand by clicking on participants and I believe or I think in the reactions as well you can also raise your hand, or you can put your questions in the chat and I will move them from the chat into the main discussion. So, as Wani, we're going to take your question right after Connie if you want to go ahead Connie. Thank you, Mac. Yeah, it's been a while. Just, just to respond to your question actually Kyros, you know, has been a huge supporter of the migrant rights network in terms of, you know, it's campaign. The status for all in status now campaign. Great. And the vaccine and so on and so forth. I've been, you know, prodding who's on, you know, for cars to become a members currently the membership committee hasn't met yet so there is that I also say that, you know, I was one of the funding, you know, of the caregivers action center. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. You know, it's good, it's good. So yeah, just, just to reiterate what you said that many of, you know, the changes that we are seeing now how, however, you know, despite the shortfalls and so forth. This all came about because of the advocacy, the, the courage of the workers, the caregivers to speak up and have the plight known and be able to get, you know, support from allies and supporters. And, and I think, you know, we need more of this as COVID-19 continues, and workers, vulnerability has increased, not only in terms of the employment, but also the toll on their mental health. And I think this is what, you know, what we are doing right now as part of the webinar series series is to raise awareness and on the conditions and context of this workers and how we as allies, you know, privilege citizens and permanent residents will be able to support. As well, you can go ahead. Yes, thank you. Yes, I think it's very important what Connie has mentioned, like we as an allies, we can help them because this group is a very vulnerable group, and it has been vulnerable group for many years. To be aware of the rights, to be aware of what can they do is my, like, I mean, education is everything, right? Sometimes I feel like if they don't say something is because they don't really know the rights. They don't really know the parts. That's one part, but that I wanted to mention, but the other one I have a question for, for Mac. So you were talking about the pyramid of who is on the top like citizenship, but I didn't. I have always wondered like refugees, refugees have a lot of rights and a lot of like supports. I have always wondered how cannot migrant farm workers can put in some kind of that situation that refugees have right. And they pay taxes and they paid, they paid taxes and all of that. So I'm always wondering about that. I don't know if you can please clarify my question. Why is not that possible to another channel for migrant farm workers? I mean, this might sound a little bit. A little bit conspiracy theorist, but I think the idea is with all foreign workers is to keep them in a vulnerable position. So that we can easily exploit them to do jobs that Canadians and permanent residents don't want to do. Even permanent residents are often put into, you know, jobs that they're over qualified for or not even in their stream, you know, we all know the story of the doctors driving a taxi cab. I think the idea is actually to have different strata of society so that they can force people into doing the really menial terrible jobs and force people into situations where the employer can really, really control them. And then I also think there's a certain amount of a large amount of racism in that, you know, Canadian immigration policy was extremely open until people of color started coming to this country. It was only when people of color started coming at the end of the 19th century that they started doing restrictive and punitive immigration laws. And I think they want to pretend that's not going on because we're a wonderful multicultural country, but there's still a lot of that. You know, I mean, Connie would know this better than me but when they first started the caregiver program, the Philippines would boast that their biggest export to Canada was women. And the seasonal agricultural program comes similarly to that program. It comes from an agreement between Canada and different countries in the Caribbean to basically import workers. So I think it's hard also just I would say and I agree with you refugee claimants and refugees have lots of rights. I think the reason that happens is because Canada likes to boast about its record and being someone who accepts refugees. You know, you have Justin Trudeau go on the news with that young Syrian woman to show how welcoming and open we are. The story that never gets told is that there's every day Canada border service agency is working to interdict, which is to stop people from coming here to make a refugee claim in the first place. And the number of refugees we bring in a sponsored refugees either through our local church or a mosque or synagogue or organization is a drop in the bucket compared to what third world like global south countries are bringing. I think it's Jordan, Egypt and, and the Sudan take millions of refugees, we take about 15,000 a year. That's that's overseas, like sponsored from overseas. So, you know, I think refugees do have a lot of rights but I think that's also because that I think it's a PR exercise I'm sorry I don't mean to be overly conspiracy theorist. Thank you so much. I just just wanted to add thing with caregivers and until you know is big part of mobilizing caregivers and we are part of the new pathways advocacy. And speaking about that, we are standing in front of the stair committee on April 12 regarding caregivers. LMA and the pathways, and we are presenting the challenges we will involve in caregivers program since 2006 heavily and advocating on behalf of caregivers and I just wanted to say, and we even though we prepared our speech and given but we can always tweak in the last minute and if anyone wanted to share any thoughts on that too. We can definitely do and we are three of us are presenting in front of the committee on April 12 regarding the challenges they have to go through passing through the LMA and language test and all that so I thought just put it through it and Connie is aware of it and she is and part of our ongoing with caregiver challenges and what difficult it cost to become a permanent resident. Even the new pathways cost a lot of challenges and anxiety among people the caregiver so. So much Jennifer. I'm going to take Anna's question. Hi, I'm from BC here in Surrey BC. And I just have to share an experience that happened to me last week. We had live work for the migrant worker worker project, and I go and visit the farm workers know that at the farms we had a food box program that we bring food to them every week. And last Monday I had experience I was there waiting for them to come and load the boxes not from my car. And one of the supervisor just came and said what are you doing here the owner or the owner of the farm say that's what are you here like I was I feel intimidated. And I was kind of know what's going on but I explained that we are from options program and we bring food and everything but that's how they they intimidate workers. That's how they and they are in a very remote area that they cannot go to the super and they cannot go and buy their food like they maybe I don't know how they are getting the food but we are coming to support them with food not every week. And that was experience that's and they were scared because they saw him talking to me. They were coming they stopped no and they didn't want to come and they just wait for him to live and I was like that's not fair like he's going home. He's going to be in contact with their family and then he's coming back tomorrow to work he can be one of the had the virus and come to work and he can pass it to other people but not how he can is allowed to go because. And I don't know I was like, a little bit mad after because I said like, that's not fair that they tell the farm workers not to go out when the local workers can go home be with their family and come back to work the next day. And I don't know that was something that's I experienced no and I was like, like they had the right like they have to be careful like, like to go and take all the precaution that we have to take, but they can go to the store they can, they have to feel like it's scary someone come and bring them food, food or they someone come and bring anything or they can go out now but they are intermediate intermediate workers that's what that's my feeling no and. And other farms that because I work with a few farms are different like they even call me like I say those people are in quarantine can you help them like other employers are different but some employers are like I don't know that happened to me and. I can but I don't know how they maybe that the way that he tried to intimidate me. That's how it works for the workers know and they don't know the English they don't know they are scared that they will send back home. And sometimes like no it's not because they don't know the rights because it's because they don't know English they don't know how to express they don't know how to communicate and how to say like they are scared no that's that's I think that's that's going on with a few farm workers know that they cannot and even when they we had a focus group and we asked is they will tell us or tell the government is they were abused and they say no because they are scared to send back home. Any they need to provide for the family back home no and that's something that they will never say that's what's going on because they need to work. And that's something that I just want to share what happened that day because I'm still dealing with that no like because I was like I don't know if I got scared can you imagine how they can get when they said like. Intimidate then I'll say you cannot do this like I think it's it's hard no. Thank you just to share that. Thank you. But do any of our speakers want to get anything emerging from that or. Yep, you can go ahead just I was very brave of you to share that. And unfortunately it happens all the time. It's like it if it was one isolated case one bad apple. But I mean I know also here in, in Ontario who Steve CEO workers who have to be really careful about how they, they beat with farm workers. MWAC workers in the Niagara region have to be extremely careful about, you know, they going they can't really go to the farms. And when they do they often get the same, like similar treatment. It's really, really wrong. I'm sorry that happened to you. I just want to build on that because it does segue nicely into some of the other things that we need to think about in the context of empowering workers with information when they're in a situation that materially and politically and actually disempowers them to exercise those rights. And so even though, you know, we should be able to in a situation outside of a lockdown make those kinds of deliveries in a contactless way that adheres to public health. We know that employers are very resistant to having anyone come near the farm and will invoke, you know, trespassing laws. So then there becomes this blurred line between, you know, not having visitors are not receiving goods. We've heard all over the province last year that workers couldn't even receive drop offs. And some of the food items that we were dropping off had to be repackaged and left curbside and so that employers would not be inflamed by the presence of others. You know, and even in cases sometimes where the employer would be operating a larger farm saying, OK, if you have locals that you're connected to who are bringing things, they can bring it to me and I'll give it to you. You just have all your local advocate friends come right to my office and interact with me and I'll be sure you get those goods and services that you've asked for. And so I think part of this, the pandemic has really exposed but not just exposed but really intensified the power dynamics on the farm. So even when we know that, you know, having your workers stay on farm and not receive visitors and not have access to these essential goods qualifies as abuse violates human trafficking laws. The actual mechanisms by which we could remedy that on an individual level requires systemic change and that's not what's what's on the table right now. And so we do actually have to exercise a little bit of caution in how we approach our worker friends in suggesting things like the open work permit for vulnerable workers because we need to also remember while that is being processed. They may find themselves living on the very same farm that they're trying to escape for not having any other housing accessible to them, depending on where they are. And then there's as I think Connie mentioned or Jennifer mentioned, there may be depending on the sending country repercussions in the following year. So even if that open work permit is processed and they are granted the permit and there's a new employer that can use them for the rest of the year. They may find themselves just not called back next year because there's so much put on the relationship between the employer and their workforce and the ability from players to name workers specifically by name and not as a form of reprisal. So it's a very complicated situation in terms of recognizing workers rights to freedom of movement and recognizing the illegality and consequences of employers actions. What's trying to navigate those two very particular tricky worlds in terms of the power dynamics. Like I say to people we have to be exercising caution to because you know employers can be dangerous, not knowing who we are or who anyone is coming out their farm so just always being aware of that element of danger. Yep, go ahead. Just on that yeah I mean the consulates usually are more worried about having the program cut off. Then they are about their own citizens. A great example is there was a raid in 2006, when the largest raids in Canadian history on a chicken farm. And they're mostly Thai workers, and the Thailand consulate showed up for a meeting with them and advise them all to just leave the country and go. So, and I mean, other people would know much better stories about the Niagara region but I know the Mexican consulate down there works hand in hand with the government and immigration enforcement. Go ahead, Connie. I just want to talk a little bit about, you know, the tip line. What we understand, or you know what we. Yeah, what we understand is that workers who are in a situation, abusive or exploitative situation can use the tip line. But indirectly, for example, you know, the workers out which workers right now in case because of, you know, the support of this project. If we are in contact with these workers and they want to report an allegation, he can do that by going through us. For example, I actually helped one, you know, she didn't want to report herself because she doesn't want to jeopardize her employment and the ability to be able to come back next year. So I asked her the information. I found a tip line and I, I, I, I, I mentioned my name. So any any communication or any further question or follow up from tip line, they should course it to me. And then I should talk to the worker and let her know, you know what's happening. So in that case, we are protecting, you know, the worker and at the same time. We are informing the government that this is happening. And it is there, you know, honest to follow up and to make sure or follow up investigate and make sure that, you know, whatever situation the worker or the workers in that workplace. They know that there is something, you know, being done. So this is the tip to the tip line that, you know, we can, we can, we can do we can use to support the worker and at the same time protect them. There's a question in the chat from Ashley. Have there been any moves towards permanent residency upon rival is this a solution with significant political support behind it. Go to any of the presenters in terms of shifting in permanent residency. So I don't know that there's any formalized step that way there has been recently a municipal nominee program and but many of the newer programs that introduced permanent residency pathways are not so accessible as they currently exist. But I just noting that IRCC actually a couple of months back noted that they have projected goals for 2021. And that those projected goals, given the context of the pandemic may not be achievable unless they start to open up pathways to people who are already here specifically people who are here on the temporary form worker programs. There's some talk of it at the federal level but specifically as advancing, you know, a mechanism for this program the temporary for an agriculture, not as yet. But it is being discussed largely how Canada can meet its immigration goals in the context of COVID. And I think that also includes international students as part of that as well caregivers in lots of different sectors under which people are coming over. And a lot of talks about and who's eligible and how they can become permanent resident but being said and put it in papers and one thing in when it comes to reality is another thing. And how tough it is, especially the caregivers program it was an ongoing battle, allowing them to have the on arrival, you know, permanent status for caregivers they have been. And there's no straight answer to say or they, they pretend or they just say something and then they make policies and a process in place which is make it more difficult. One of the good example with the, you know, who is qualified to become a permanent resident they given a new pathway and they put so many barriers so you can even imagine going there. So that's even, even for the skill category they are top, you know, they're more of willing to give people who are highly qualified and help people than people who are here and doing the actual work. And, you know, supporting them when it comes to healthcare most of the care you wish are part of healthcare and they should give them a chance to be first one to get the permanent residence but it's not so. So there are a lot of hope. There were a lot of talks let's hope and see something or the other they will work out and I think part of permanent residency is also international student they are more willing to give that to international students than any other category. I have a hand from Carol Anne if you want to go ahead. Yours. Thank you. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right that you know minister Mendocino and Jennifer and Stephanie were saying this to that. He spoke recently about this exact issue and creating those pathways to meet the immigration targets of IRCC, most recently at the Metropolis National Conference. You know, TNO does advocacy. Kyros. Thank you Connie it's incredible the work that you're doing and I think, you know, as long as we can continue to advocate together that it can have an impact. So I encourage you to even read the policy brief that was released. I shared it in the chat from the Royal Society of Canada. There's some incredible recommendations there for IRCC that we can amplify in our messaging and advocacy efforts to and they're going to be releasing a policy brief specifically on migrant workers so reach out. And I think that all the work that we're all doing that you're all doing can be, you know, included potentially in that policy brief as well. And while we're on this subject. This is by no means a closing I just wanted to put this up now. And while this is sort of the area we're discussing the next webinar is going to be on the 20th of April. And it's going to be around specifically what we can, what actions we can take as interested people to support migrant workers, like which organizations are doing and how we can sort of share joy with migrant workers directly and sort of the issues around doing that as well so I think this dovetails nicely with, with where we are on this topic so the link to register is in the chat. And I think hopefully that'll be a full webinar but let's continue with this webinar while we're while we're here. Feel free to add more questions in the chat, or if anybody has anything emerging from the conversation we've been having feel free to raise your hand as well. I wanted to think of what questions I had emerging from the, from these conversations as well. There is quite there is quite a lot to take in both from max presentation and the TNO presentations in terms of the issue is there so it's so multifaceted, it's such a sort of large scope of issues. Intersecting, as you said, like at the bottom of the sort of pyramid of rights that should not be. So I think it's important to do what we can as interested people in the, the permanent residents and citizens to push for change so I'm glad to see that there has been such an interest across all of these webinars in terms of, in terms of interested in this topic. Yep, go ahead, Connie. I know I've been talking a lot, but also just go for it. But I'm under the current project, you know that Tyros is implementing through coordinate community coordinated approach and also with the partners that you know we have TNO is a partner. I see Fanny here in the center for migrant farm migrant worker, sorry, migrant farm worker solidarity and simple and Christina is here with, you know, the Durham region, Sandy and Ashley from, you know, the unknown neighbors in in simple county. We have three months to go. And we can still do a lot in terms, you know within this three months to really provide support to the workers who are meeting information on meeting emergency assistance, whether it's food or you know, and, and I really want to encourage supporters and allies who are here with us and who have been participating in the previous, you know, that we have community partners in different farming locations, farming, and, you know, to be able to connect with his partners and be able to know more information, about the migrant workers and underground and finding ways to be able to support, you know, and provide support to these workers. Having said that I also don't want us to lose sight of the fundamental changes that we wanted to see happen within the program. This has, you know, spoken a lot of advocacy of different organizations that, and TNO is part of those, you know, advocacy that we can honestly, you know, see this change happen if we are all together in doing the advocacy and calling for the changes that we want to see happen. Now, a lot of part of it is honest to on the workers for them to be able to speak up. But we have to understand that those who take, you know, the risk or taking the risk and the courage to speak up. Not many would want to do that because of the very nature of, you know, their situation, their vulnerability and why they're here. They are here as, you know, guests and welcome by the Canadian government under the Temporary Farm Workers Program. And they should be accorded with all the rights and all the support and services that all of us should, you know, that all of us have. So, so it's not really making that distinction in terms of the status and so forth, but it is happening. It is a reality. And what we're happy, what we're hoping to achieve, you know, from from this conversations is to raise increased that awareness and hopefully at the end of the day, there are more of us calling for these changes and at the same time providing support. So I just wanted to hear. Thank you. Yes. Yes, I think it's all really good, Connie, what you mentioned about like providing support and at the end is the community, right? That creates the laws and it also changes in what is happening within the cities or the country that we live at the end. Those changes happen within the community, people from community that are supporting each other. And talking about that and thinking about that, I have thinking like it will be a possible way to try for the government that has implemented a kind of a service for outreach workers like myself, like migrant like farms should have visitation, like outreach workers should have visitation rights to different farms. Like, and the government help these organizations that have outreach workers to be able to do those visitation, like visitation to different farms. I think that has always been a good idea. It would be a good idea. So it's not just through the inspectors of public health, but other people and other organizations that can have those access. I understand that farms sometimes are drug or the produce that they are doing are growing like that. But if people are like trained in how to go, how those proceed and they have a visitation right to farms, that would be a great way to go and provide services to farm migrant farm workers. But how can that happen? How I am like wondering how it has not happened yet. And I think that's another piece of work that we need to work all of us need to work hard to get that or maybe to ask lobby to the government and say this is one of the things they could, you know, give a chance to workers to see this is another support because after the COVID mental health and, you know, people being alone, it's a big thing. And how do we support when you don't have families at least you have a outreach worker visiting and supporting. We've seen them in reality how happy they wanted to talk to you and share your thoughts and giving that comfort. We've seen it in in front and that's a ground reality right. And then, like Coney mentioned that we're all in together in this to support and provide the support that unfortunately the, our migrant friends who are on the bottom of it and we can empower them give the resources but at the same time there's nothing for them to act on it to safely and getting that support. And then I think we need to work a little more harder to get that advocacy piece going more harder and holding our government accountable when you're bringing food chain is a huge thing in Ontario. I mean I can only speak away to huge thing how they are supporting the Canadian and also bringing the educational piece to our Canadian friends, looking at it I say this migrant workers are how important or in our daily life, you know during this difficult time you know we were able to advocate for some other things and this is another piece that we really need to push our Canadian friends to look at it and see how important this migrant workers in our life on a daily basis and to have that educational piece also part of you know holding each one of us responsible and accountable for this work right and without them and I don't know how our life would be during the COVID and nobody think about it and we only think about from the media perspective and saying these are the people creating problem it's not actually they are in a worse condition and still they are working 18 hours, 19 hours to help us get our food on table and we are getting all the produce and you know that we were thinking about how do we educate our general population, our young people and you know coming generations how to educate them to support so that's another piece of work and I think with the government funds or something maybe we need to mobilize and see how that piece can be go around in small communities to support at the same time not to forget about the farmers also they also go through struggle at the same time showing our support to them saying how we can support them to keep the space safe for everyone right so and I think it's a lot of work and it's a good beginning at least and take on so that's my two cents. Thank you so much. Christina had a question. Yes. Actually, I would like to share with you how we start working here because I know that we're waiting for so long for legal change, but I can say that we have to work right now with what we have. So, they think that to get to the farmers and we have to do different strategies. We have to be proactive to see which strategy works for every single farm. We approach sometimes the owners, and it doesn't work we go straight to the managers and this is how we try to make balance in order to get a goal to get service to the to the to the workers. So I will suggest to everybody who doing outreach and doing outreach myself and we try to be a to start talking with the owners. If that strategy doesn't work we go with the manager and we go around to see which one work better. But for sure, we have to be able to provide that service for the farmer who need them much, but we have to be smart in order to see how we can approach them. Because we know the limitations. We know that right now is really hard, but we have to be positive and be proactive, according with how we can approach them in the positive way that we can help the workers and at the same time get good relationship with the owners or the farmers. Sorry, because in that way we can provide better service for the workers and this is what we want to let them know what we're doing, what is their rights and how we can help them in this process. So this is my, my suggestion. Thank you. Hi, can I say that this is a good idea we do that here options we have very like with some employer we have a very good relationship. We have even able to do training for the supervisor how to treat farmer workers and about cultural difference and all the stuff is good when they when they don't see when they don't see us one minute. Someone was asking me something. Okay, sorry. And yeah we have a very good relationship with some employers and it's good when they don't see us as an enemy, but they see us as a friend, and that we are there to support them and support them, the, the, the workers know. And for example right now we have like 3040 people in quarantine from one of the farm, and it's good when they employer letting me know like we had this group in the hotel the other one and the other place, how you can support them know and we can support them with food, calling them and do like a lot of stuff like in this good when you had that relationship with employer, but for the experience I have before we tried to, to reach those. The farm, but they don't want us like it's very hard when they are like very close minded don't want, because they see us as as enemy because they think that we're coming to organize the workers we're coming to. Uninize them or we are coming to tell them what are their rights what are they have to do that as that's the problem that they don't, that they don't want people like us organization get close to the workers because they, they don't, they don't want that they only want them to come work. And that's it they don't want to have them for them to have any other like contact pieces like only with the farm know like only with them workers from the farm but not outside the farm. And yeah some some employers are very accessible and we can do a lot of stuff but other don't don't let us get close to the workers. I don't know that's the comment. Okay, Fanny, you can go ahead, and we'll come back to Christian. You're on mute. Yes, it's right what Anna says. I think the way that it is really hard we had a lot of barriers that have to be overcome during this process. And I, we find out here in the region that we know exactly what kind of fun and we know the problems that any farm is representing because the farmers or the workers and telling us you know we have this kind of abuse or we have this kind of problem. What we're doing when we try to bring the groceries because we bring groceries as well. We provide them with a, I can say a carpet with a lot of information that we bring like you write so this is how you supposed to watch your hands with a lot of information that we think you really help them. I don't know. I know it's hard for us. I know that we had a lot of problems to reach the workers, but what this is what we have right now so it's just to be positive and try to give them exactly what we what they need, because we know the farmers and we know the workers as well and we know the limitation is so we have to work with that it's just be a little proactive and positive. That's it. Thank you. So we are doing the same thing here in the area of Norfolk County and Howdyman County. We are approaching the farmers with the welcome bags and we haven't had any problem with the farmers. In fact, one of the big operations they hired probably 400 people. They called me last week to come over to the farm and bring some welcome bags for the workers. So I think if everybody work together, even like us, the workers, the farmers, I had two farmers already coming to the office and talking about, you know, the problems they're having with a live can and all the issues with that having right now. And I think talking about a the government of Canada, I think she takes responsibility of these workers a facilitate centers or places where a worker when they come to town. They can go to a place where they can probably get Wi-Fi Wi-Fi talk to the families because some of them just come at one o'clock in the in the afternoon and then all day they just go around around until eight, nine o'clock at night. They don't have anything to do. So probably if all of the groups push the government to, you know, for that to happen, it would be really nice, big help for migrant workers. Catherine, did you have something to add or did you have a question? I just see that your mic is on. Yeah. How do I, how do I, am I muted? Can you hear me? Yep, we can hear you. My concern, I support permanent residency totally. How does a worker afford to live in Canada? How, I mean, we talk about this as if it's, they all want it and they'll bring their families and everybody will be happy. Well, who's going to pay for it? They can't at $15 and now minimum wage. So it's a question. I want it to happen, but how is it going to happen? And I think that's a reality for people who are already here as a permanent resident with doctorates and engineering highly qualified people who are driving taxis and working in Tim Hortons, because they are so determined, right? And, and you know, like you said, not everyone wants to be a permanent resident or they wanted to be people who determined to be a permanent resident. The hard work they do and then when their families together and I think that makes more sense for them to work together and not going in limbo, not knowing what their status is make it more difficult for them. And it's when you become a permanent resident there are add on benefits for them to work hard, because every permanent I mean every immigrant, including myself, maybe I might come in 35 years ago. I never thought how difficult life will be in Canada, right, but we all work through. And I think that's one of the achievement of it. If you look at it, if you ask me, yeah, $15 for an hour, even, I don't know, 70 80% or 90% of our population are most of us are living below poverty line, but somehow manage but putting that as a barrier, I don't know whether it's people who wanted to be a permanent resident. Somehow they will survive through this barrier also to make it as their home, and they will be more productive when you know your status and it's able to give them a piece of mind to work a little more harder to achieve what they need to achieve in life. It's going to be maybe not staying at the $15 maybe will work through on a higher wages, and then maybe government have to think about saying $15 it's enough when the given fact of life expected, you know, in expenses are going up and to to aggregate on next right so. And I think giving a permanent residence give some more stable life than not having them on limbo like this and going through all the abuses. So it will take a lot of mental health issues and in life in general overall life. It makes much, much better when you have a permanent status in the country than are knowing your status and that's why the abuse happen right so. I will argue on that side of it saying yes, they might not offer to but at least give them a piece of mind that they are have a condition that not to want not to take all the abuses that goes on with. That's my. And I would like to add to something quite just Jennifer said, I would like to to remind that these are very hard workers, right they don't work regular hours like people do like just the eight hours seven hours per day. They work between 10 and 12 hours, and they love to work like that so it's not people that are like, you know, just sitting down and they know what is work they are hard workers. And like Jennifer said when they come with families, I think that the families are the same like the wife or whatever they come they are hard workers too. The standards of living might not be like very, they know how to live with little as well. Right, so that's something other things that we can take on consideration but yes, and the possibilities of growing and don't have to the repressals and no being on their abuse, it will give them a chance to grow. Right, so I think that's something that it's very important to consider. And the other part is like, there is always like opportunities to grow when you learn the languages right now, they face a lot of barrier because they don't have supports for ESL classes or like in talking in general right but if they have access to education and all of that I'm sure that they will look for those parts. I had a like, I don't know a concern about that too because when you get the PR then they might not want to continue working at the farm because then they had a different status they might be able to move to some other job then we will have the same issue because we have to bring more farm workers know and that's the something that will continue maybe that's why they don't allow this group to have PR because they know that when they had a PR they will move to construction they will move to a different job know and that's we create the same issue that we have right now that the local don't want to work in this condition they don't want to work in the farm because it's hard know. And that's why maybe that's why they don't allow them to have the PR, because they know that people will move to a different job, no but I think that's what we need is like better condition for them. And that's that's what they need know like to have the support and better conditions for now I know. And we are getting to the to the end of the session. So Connie if you wanted to raise your point and then we'll check with our speakers and then we'll be done for the day. Thank you David. I will respond briefly to Catherine's question. I think aside from calling you know for permanent residency status, and for them to be really permanent residents. It's also a principal question, you know, or a principal call that is not immigration, or Canada or other who determines who could be a permanent resident and to shoot it. I think knowing, you know, the, the limitations and the challenges and the barriers that people without status or people with, you know, temper our status of face, I think we want to create a fair playing field. So that all of us human beings shares and exercise, you know, and benefits from our inherent right. So I think, you know, that is the principle aspect in calling for permanent residency. And also, it's not, it's not, you know, as you said Catherine that wants that. So they have the option to say no, I just want, you know, as a worker or open worker man, but they have that option to say no, instead of them, it's happening now that everyone is going out of their names to be able to become permanent residents. And, and it's also pitting, you know, we're being pitted against each other in the benefits in terms of rights. And that is wrong and that is, again, of, you know, why we're calling for status for now status for all. Yes, I see my racing. No, don't worry about it. Yeah, but also, you know, if we're, if we're talking about logistics, if we're talking about finances and materials. So for, let me just talk about the seasonal agricultural workers the program has been there for six, almost 60 years now. And this workers have been paying to income tax, I, and, and CPP, and they're not able to access, you know, those benefits. All the temporary workers who are here, we're talking about hundreds of thousands. And how much are they contributing, not only in terms of their work, not only in terms of their labor, but also financially. And yet, we are not giving back, you know, to them in terms of being able to access support and services, being able to, you know, care for example. So it's, you know, I have that kind of elaborates a little bit on why we're calling for permanent residency. Thank you for that. I want to go to, if there are any last points that our guests want to make as we get to three o'clock. So if Jennifer is definitely your Mac have anything to add. I just had a really short, short story about what Connie said with the divide and conquer kind of strategy, which is the city has historically divided those who are advocating for more shelter spaces for homeless against those who are advocating for more shelter spaces for refugees. And they've purposely set up a divide between them to try and get the two groups to fight each other, so that they can try and get more money from the federal government for shelters. So, yeah, it happens all the time, and they're very good at unfortunately. And I think for my last piece of thing is, and I think we have a lot to learn and educate each other on certain things and understanding our history and where we're all coming from and what circumstances and I think it's a big piece, even though it's all falls on certain group of people or, you know, expected of educating other rather than, you know, we're all working together and I think we have a long way to go. And really, we learned and I think I came from a colonized background to divide and conquer is always been a part of it. We need to undo so many things, even within as an immigrant I need to learn so many undo things by myself to learn more and to be more inclusive. And I think we have a long way to go. And I think we have stepping into one step at a time in the right direction and hoping this type of work will bring all of us together and bind us together to build up the nation that we all wanting to and we're wanting to see so I will leave it at that. Thank you, Stephanie anything to add before we close. I do not I think we covered a lot in the last little while and I guess I will end it on Jennifer's note there and just thank Kairos again thanks to you David and to Connie and to Alfredo for your invitation today this has been a great chance to to connect with everyone. Thank you everyone for like, thank you to our wonderful guest speakers but what I appreciate about these webinars is just how much everyone has to offer to this very rich discussion on critically important issues so thank you everybody for your insights into this. So I'm including the link to the April 20 webinar again in the chat. And thank you so much. Again, I hope you all have a lovely afternoon.