 We've got a quorum here, so we can officially start our meeting and now we have one more than a quorum So we'll call the meeting to order for January 27th 2020 if all the gentlemen here have seen the agenda If there's no changes or additions somebody could approve the agenda to get things started I make a motion to approve the agenda as presented Second, okay Those in favor, please say aye. Aye Consent agenda items are the next thing on the list minutes from January 20th meeting It appears a liquor license for the blackback pub. Is there a motion to approve the consent agenda? Make a motion to approve the consent agenda as written Second second Chris I also have an outside consumption permit for Ty Smiley, which you approved last week, but it was stapled to the license so it didn't get signed Tice say that again. Ty Smiley. Ty Smiley, and you'd like that under the same Yeah, it's just it was approved. It was approved. She just wants you to sign it. Okay. All right All right, so no addition to the consent agenda. We've had a motion made and seconded all those in favor of approving that agenda Please say aye. Aye Public now it's time for public to speak if there's anybody here wishes to do so Seeing none we can scratch that off our list and move right into the library commissioners budget Report Dan I'm sorry Thank you We're able to get to the same number for 84 430 so 0% increase 0% increase in the tax is necessary to run the budget right thing. Yeah, the budget funds a library that is continuing to see more people circulate more items and See things like you just go up as well the hand that I passed up to you That all me put together Thanks to bill and all me for putting the budget together as well The commissioners have you know review the budget over the last two meetings But bill and all me really did the lion's share and hang on Dan and can you hear them? Okay, so let's take the mic from the Sorry about that. Yeah, I was kind of wondering so in terms of numbers going up The handout that we distributed just now We have an increase of 12,575 visits that's folks coming through our door 20 which represents a 22 percent change 22.3 circulation That includes books media other items checked out 5,886 14.3 percent increase We have more people come into our adult programs more people come into our youth programs and More people using the computers So we feel like given the Increased usage Being able to fund that again with the same number that we Asked taxpayers for last year Feels like a pretty good thing Yeah, I'm I'm Tickled right to death that you were able to level fund your budget this year It means a lot Kudos to all of you for doing a great job. I wish we could say the same on the other parts of the budgets, but the fact that That you were able to do what you did is huge Yeah, thanks again to Bill and all me for helping us get there. Yeah, what do you contribute? Contribute to the large amount of visits. That's a pretty big amount of large amount of visits increased Is there anything in particular that? May have done that Sure, I don't think there's any one thing I think it's a combination of factors I think that More you know more people are coming in because of the new building still I think we've definitely increased the kinds of services that we've provided in the last year and a half or so and We've increased the Outreach to the community to let people know what is at the library and people are hearing about that and so then they're coming in Sometimes they come in for one specific thing like oh I heard you have snowshoes or I heard I can get digital books through you guys Is that true? And then sometimes it's just that they're hearing the buzz about the library services and they feel like they should go check it out so I Think it's a lot of different things. I Could say that I've I've come more because I think you have Better and more interesting programs than you ever have yeah our programs have definitely Definitely drawing a lot of people they might come for a program and then they might say oh there's a lot of stuff here I'll get a card so yes was in this day and age With the internet a lot of people like myself Don't use the library nearly as much as they did in the past But I think the programs are what gets people there. Yeah, I agree. That's a big part of it to you Thank you for pointing that out. Thank you. Just you talk about the internet now. I think Personally, I use more and I'm recommending to a lot of people are the internet services that we have through the library the Audio books and it's great how much you can do through the library, but still just downloading to your phone or your computer What have you so I think the I'll mean the staff has done a great job of really improving the services and Broadening the reach to the community to what people need because things change and I think they're changing along with it I'll just add one other thing to that and that's I know last year we did have an increase in our budget and That is I think helped us In terms of getting the word out in terms of doing that outreach that was one of the goals of last year's increase was to increase their outreach So I think you're seeing the dividends of that paying off as well It's also the library is much more inviting place to come to than it ever has been, you know It used to be I'm not saying it was terrible before but you know It just didn't you know it just like you could go and read or do whatever, you know But I think the programs are what's you know driving, you know, you know your success Yeah, I think the space is very inviting to you have a little meeting rooms The old library was was very Very Yeah, the meeting rooms are incredibly popular only can probably speak to that better than I So moving forward into next year Have you thought at all or talked at all about? Whether you're going to restructure any changes in fees or bring on any new programs that will add additional fees or Have you gotten that far yet? Do you want to talk about the Sure So, you know, we don't We don't charge a lot of fees because taxpayers have paid once we're not going to charge them again and We did have an increase in Non-resident fees this year. I see that And not just when I say increase I don't just mean it one up in the budget But we've raised the cost of a non-resident fee And that's the first time I can remember that's happened We were not in line with other libraries. We did Survey well informally asked around what other libraries were Charging for their non-resident fees and we were well below it. So non-resident fees did go up That's funny because somebody Resident just mentioned that to me the other day that how little We were charging for non-resident fees Happy to see that What it would do you charge we were at 20 10 and we went up to 25 Like a library card for a year or something for a non-resident. Yes adult Yeah, non-resident adult children still have access through the schools the schools come and bring kids So if a kids from Ducksbury and comes over here on a class trip, they can still get a card So I don't want to throw cold water on The act that you know, the budget is coming in with the same tax Levies last year But I do need to point a couple things out because I I don't want to be here here from now and say Oh, what happened? So if you look at the actual column if you look at the revenues, you see this We budgeted five hundred three thousand five hundred thirty dollars and we took in five hundred ten thousand dollars and the difference mainly is Three or four lines up from that donations. We don't budget for donations There were almost $5,900 worth of donations made to the library and then down at the bottom of the page You see the total expenditures were almost exactly what we budgeted for 87 651 But again, if you go up a couple lines from there There was purchases by donations of 58 71 so those the increase of The revenue and and what was purchased by the donations cancelled each other out so the the frankly the library spent only about 581,000 dollars or 582,000 dollars of its own money last year. So That's where the sixty two hundred dollar fund balance comes in that is at the bottom there in the actual column and The reason why they were Underspent by that much money was if you go up to the health insurance line Partway through the year one of the employees had a family Situation change in the family and they went from the two family a two person plan to a one person plan So we saved, you know, four thousand three or four thousand dollars there if you look at the regular pay line you see Between the regular pay and the part-time pay we spent just about exactly what we had planned to spend last year But if you go over to two thousand twenty you see there's a fairly significant increase in in the pay That would be two hundred and eight thousand dollars Just simply because of the fact that you staff that person that they had last year came on in June This year it's a full year's worth of a new staff person. So that gets you up to 208 And then it's 211 445 because there's One staff person this year that they're hoping to add four hours to so we're coming out with A four hundred eighty four thousand four hundred thirty three dollar tax levy, which is exactly the same as last year It's a good thing. They were able to do that Still transferring a little bit less from the trust than they did last year But going forward, you know, and if we spend exactly what we have on the page You know, it's it's a four and a half percent increase in terms of the budget. The spending is up four and a half percent It's because we had some fortunate things happen last year And you know, we've got the trust and fortunately we didn't have to you know Transfer 30,000 dollars over just to keep the taxes the same So it's good news and I told the commissioners that going into the process That if we could have a goal of keeping the taxes the same this year, that would be a win So it is a win. I think they did a good job with it But I just don't want to come back a year from now and if it requires an increase of five percent You'll understand a little bit of why so I just want you to be have the full picture Now that's I can't I guess that's why I asked if there were any changes that might be able to increase Revenue source in some manner because It's only It's only too good to be true Once in a while it never stays like that. So I and you know not being able I've gone through most of it real quick here the budget line items and the expenditures revenues, but To pick up on those points that you just mentioned would have taken me a bit longer But overall I know better than to think that you know year to year we can stay Stay right on target with the same prior budget Last more than one year. So I guess that's why I was inquiring as to whether or not we might see other revenue sources I think when you look at the growth of their programs and circulation It's clearly the investment that's that's worth making that health insurance line alone the change happened Partway through 2019. So instead of spending 26,000 we only spent about 23,000 but that change carries through to 2020 and it's only about 19,000 this year. So there's still you know about a $5,000 difference between this year's health insurance line and last year's just because of that one change and That's a line that can Change like that, you know Somebody leaves and you hire somebody new and somebody who's not taking insurance now Person you hire takes it. It can make a big difference, but overall I think it's it's a very defensible budget We'll worry about it next year next year, but I just wanted to make sure you had a full picture What's the balance of the trust fund and is there an annual cap that we that can be taken as revenue? So the trust fund It's about 500,000 I think So the commissioners have a formula they've talked about what they should transfer Should they change the formula to like the town? But I think it's While even the formula that they had in place Historically would have allowed them to transfer more The fact that we keep the taxes level with only a $14,000 transfer It doesn't make sense to take money out of the trust fund just to get a one-year Savings let that money grow in a year from now if they need it Because things didn't come out as rosy and it works into the formula that they have Maybe they can transfer a little bit more, but doesn't make sense to do it this year. I'm thinking if they have like a Big project they want to purchase something that'd be a ton a year that we might want to take more out of that trust fund Is that in your formula No, no the formula more Speaks to how the trust fund performs so if it underperforms one year then Nothing is distributed and if it performs up to a certain level. I want to say three percent Then Trying to remember the exact formula Three percent Right, right and then the next three percent goes to the town So there the formula more speaks to the performance of the trust fund and how it gets distributed in the capital Yeah, so I'm going to throw a hypothetical question See what your answer is If in a case like this last year or Current performance of the stock market excluding today's performance In a trust similar to theirs does incredibly well With our inability to predict what the future markets will do Does it would it make sense? I mean if I were in their boat in the private Investment type thing and had the same scenario dealing with a budget like this I'd be tempted to Oral more Put it towards the budget end up with a possible surplus Knowing that a Year from now if the markets Underperform You've got a cushion built into your current budget that will carry you through And help out for next year. Yeah, and if in fact next year rolls around in the market still doing incredibly well you don't have to touch a thing because you've moved forward with a Fund surplus that will serve the purpose that you needed to serve I understand that and you know the library commissioners Are the trustees of the trust funds? So they're the ones to make the decision I think they've been very thoughtful over time. They've been very Willing to listen to suggestions and we work collaboratively on it I think that you know one of the things that I talked about with them was you know Did very well this year did well last year might be a time to you know take some Top we balance the portfolio a little bit You know moving it over here There's you know, that that's an interesting idea that you have that if you you know put $25,000 here as opposed to 14 but left the taxes Exactly at the 484 and you end up with a surplus next year But the the problem with that is that if the if something happens in the year In your budget kind of goes haywire You've eaten up that surplus and it's gone. So Something that it's really them No, and I'm not trying to convince you how to have a hand at your money I was just throwing out a another option viable option Into your point if their budget goes haywire, they're covered Because the money would have to come from somewhere so it's just another option to think about because as I suggested one of our last previous meetings I Can't believe we're going to keep Continuing with a bull market here at some point We'd have to believe based on our past history at the economy Might start to decline a little bit, so it's just it's a it's a roll of the dice like I said nobody has the crystal ball But if I was doing exceptionally well in a specific market, I might use that to my advantage In a scenario like yours. Yeah, we as bill mentioned We are planning to meet and at some point with our folks from Morgan Stanley, yeah, I always say Merrill Lynch with Morgan Stanley to have have us come and give us a little advice about that And obviously you guys have total control of your budget and your money So if you were to do something like that, it's not like it's going to be taken out of your hands from some other part of the municipality that just don't happen So you wouldn't you wouldn't be in fear of losing that To one of the other departments just something to keep in mind There's always different ways to skin a cat We have to try to protect ourselves so other than that everything looks great Appreciate the job you guys have all done over the last year. I have a question It's a tiny detail, but the donations are these just cash donations. Do you have some fundraising that you do? Where's it and you kind of earmark with the $6,000 plus or minus it's going to go to Bill maybe you can help me on this a little bit some of the donations are people paying for lost books For we have an adopt an author Program where people pay us to make sure we have the Particular authors new books on the shelf all the time. So some of it's that Some of it. I think grants are in a separate line. Is that correct? Yeah, some of it is People people give us more than they owe us For whatever a cup coffee or a book they round up or yeah I Can't remember if the friends goes into Donations or grants I think it depends on what they're giving it to us for When the donations come in Jane What has been a practice for a long time is that people don't typically make donations to reduce somebody else's Taxes and they're giving years so the donations come in and You see that the amount of money that was spent for donations matches or almost exactly matches what came in so so the library When those kind of nominal donations come in like that they just use that to augment their budget They do a little bit more If they get a bigger donation Maybe one that's earmarked but not for something specific right now There's a separate funding. We'll look at that Later, but the library has three funds associated with it. There's the operating fund which is 13 There's a different donation fund that's for more earmarked things and then there's the fund 16 which is the trust and The commissioners if they wanted to do something big with that fund 16 they would move the money to the operating fund and buy because we've always What would I work with the former commissioners before they were fully public was that? You know, this is this is the public's library and they should see everything You should have kind of a slush fund that's hidden over here We're buying things out of it. The public doesn't know what it costs to run the library. So everything gets purchased out of the operating fund I can give you a couple of other examples of donations Sometimes checks just show up in the mail. Somebody was feeling generous Yeah So this year, I think we got a $500 donation just out of the blue No strings attached and we could decide what we want to spend it on We got another one for a hundred that was two others for a hundred that were similar and Some of the things that we've done with those What a project I'm working on right now is getting another sign for if you walk outside the our front door There's that wall That's just a clabbered wall as you walk in And we've noticed that when you drive you could there's a sign out on the road But then when you drive up, it's not always really clear to people who haven't been here before which door is the library Okay, so we're getting a sign made from a local company in Morrisville to put a sign on that wall So when people drive that way, they see oh, there's there's I talked to Woody Well, I haven't bought it yet, so we still have time Okay, thank you. That's good information. I Have a quick question on the The large growth growth in youth programs, but you're the attendance for youth programs doesn't seem to be growing at the same rate I was just wondering maybe you could just explain that a little bit if you could because I guess my quick math says that like three Youth attend each program if you just divide attendance first number of programs So it's kind of owners trying to understand what these programs are How many kids attend and why the two aren't going almost at the even a close rate? so Attendees Oh, sorry, so it's 30. Yeah, so it's 241 is the growth I see no, but I see no, I notice that too that the number of programs Increased doesn't really match the attendance growth and as far as percentages I think part of it is that we have tried a lot of new things This year in the youth and you can see that by the number of programs that we offered We've started offering programs during school breaks And those have not been well attended but we aren't quite ready to give up on offering them yet We think maybe people will start realizing that they're there and coming in for them We've also noticed as I think a lot of libraries around the state If not the country have noticed that well in Vermont as you know, there's a few years ago. There's the the preschool expansion for families and Most of Vermont libraries saw a pretty significant drop in Storytime attendance at that point. We're still offering two story times. We've discussed going to one But we're not quite ready to take that plunge yet either I know I can tell you that our after-school programs are very well attended. Those are Usually full and sometimes even with a waiting list. So I Think some of it has to do with just that we're trying new things and some of them haven't caught on yet Is the preschool when you say go from two to one with that? Is that once a month? No, it's every week So right now we have I'm sorry twice a week One is sort of targeted towards the younger group and one is targeted towards a slightly older group And those numbers are usually pretty small. So we've thought about combining them, but we haven't done that yet I think you're to be commended for the effort and It's paying off and the increased Visits the the library has a good feel to it. It's inviting. I think so It's very inviting as are all your your events. So thanks for all your efforts. Thank you Thank you guys So the next thing on our agenda is discuss the state of Vermont aquatic nuisance control Greeter Grant on behalf of Friends of Waterbury Reservoir So chop backers here from the friends So I've just distributed The application for the Vermont aquatic nuisance control grant and aid program for 2020 It's a 25% The grant would pay 25% of the program cost. So if you flipped over to the third page the program cost is $8,613 and 25% of that is a grant of 21 53 The library funds I mean the planning budget has $2,500 Grant Why neither in a $2,500 expense and as we said when Steve was here It's in and out as far as we're concerned. Whatever amount comes in will go out the friends make up the difference Above the grant amount so with that I'll turn it over to Chuck and you can describe the program and Sure, well, we started in 2016 with one reader focusing on the Bush Hill Access point and then two years ago. We were able to hire a second greeter and it's for one weekend day Usually Saturday unless the weather shitty than they come Then they come on a Sunday And at last year we had like 600 boat interactions 350 at Blush Hill and 250 at the dam site and this is again a course of one weekend day and They're back to educate Greeters that educate about the invasive species. What about is really unique because we have a reservoir that that Doesn't have boat owners on it really home owners on it Everybody comes in with the trailers from all over the place and we have like basically three access points So the it really is very and it's a large lake. So it's attractive for people to come to it So it's sort of you know at risk for all sorts of invasive species So it's a the state sees it as a priority. It's so pushed us four years ago to start doing it so We want to continue with the same level of staffing we try to we have enough money to increase it They do two days a week the two weekend days And we'll see what happens I don't know the 25% is not guaranteed because the numbers keep going up of the groups applying So that number and the funds are staying steady as I understand it So the percentage could come come down as well and that may have to adjust what we can do You would think with all the concern about climate change and those types of things that they would at least increase that fund To reflect the the growing risk You know, I think they get like I think 30% something of the boat registration fees That's where the money comes from and so that does not not like a state appropriation So it's a bit bending on what comes in they get that Is there any indication? Maybe outside of the kind of the line of what you're discussing here, but any indication about worry of Algae blooms or phosphorus No You know the brain I add contribute to Yeah, we're brutal. I had that is you know blooms wasn't too bad last year, but it's The really terrible one is a Eurasian mill foil, you know like Boma Zina and it really it really screws up the Bay the end swimming and we don't have that. It's not found yet in the waterway reservoir the basis you have Land-based plants, right? No they're not like the Ray the region mill foil starts growing from the bottom of the lake Right, I mean it's supposed to float any kind of stuff. Yeah Yeah, the not we that's not means is aquatic invasives, I mean the not we just taking over that's the whole other issue So Mike you must have some kind of an idea of different types of invasives that I have loads of experience with invasives with the various Water-based groups I have been involved with mill foils really the big one the second one probably is zebra mussels and I know fishermen and boaters really have been Spoken to about Washing their their trailers off because that's where it all spreads is via hitchhikers you know on trailers and It and people don't realize you really have to your live wells and stuff like that you have to flush that out But that's another place that All the invasives will hitchhike and I think the greeters do a good job I know I have seen since I fish a lot of places Throughout Vermont. They do a good job one thing I could say a couple of years ago I don't think you've had that greeter maybe again But well, maybe he was just there one time He wasn't the most friendly sort and and that's a really important thing because at our Accesses we want people to be friendly to bring Business back to this area and if you have someone who's acting like a fish cop, you know It it's it's not a good experience and this individual, you know, I tried to say I've been involved in Lake Champlain Wall I associate in presence. I know exactly what you're doing I say I clean my boat. I say I'm not the person that you have to worry about and he gave me a little bit of the ninth degree and I Was a little bit concerned with someone like me who knows about how bad invasions can be But I think the only thing that we have going for us in the reservoir because it's so deep and mill foil Problem, you know, it's only going to be in the very shallow reaches that mill foil is going to attach so That may help us a little bit with with invasions I would be more concerned about zebra mussels and zebra mussels and much harder to Prevent from moving so you think the way the lake structured being pretty much Limited with the shallow areas that in the freshwater input Probably helps keep that helps. I think also on zebra mussels because they're relatively shallow water Yeah No, that's right. No, but it is a real concern in Champlain That was a huge concern. Not only it was a big concern for like water plants, you know, they were concerned about water plants the intakes getting clogged and stuff like that, but Most of the stations it's really it's a mill foil kind of protection. Do we have Diddy moat? Diddy must be any it's called rocks not That's Determined that natural and as a matter of fact, they got they got rid of they used to have where you weren't able to use felt waiters because they felt you transferred the rocks not The different bodies and they went away from that because they determined Diddy mo is Natural Yeah So Chuck this greeter program. Is it purely Educational and just passing on information or are there people there from like Forest Parks checking boats and things like I mean Is there any enforcement part of it? No, we're not a lot We do offer Inspections and we like people know now by state law the boats, you know They have to what needs to be done in terms of cleaning the boat and then the greeters will offer I'll take a look around and empty out We have sponges the entry out that dry wells, but it's all voluntary on the boat as part of we've been, you know, fairly lucky That's right. Blushill. I thought we'd have a lot of problems And it's like once or twice during the season somewhere really is difficult But most often and I agree. There's no one to back off. I can just imagine somebody who's been waiting on Blushill In a line of 19 boats Go fishing or go skiing or whatever Yeah But we collect the data at least get the information And give them some information and do the best you can Yeah, I was gonna ask you if anybody never been turned away No, we can't do that. No So it doesn't you don't do this greeting at the Waterbury Center State Park. No, is that because To my people or you don't have enough staff, we don't have the staff I mean, this is you're really really when we started doing this we were really concerned again about the Blushill Not knowing what's going on there, but that was the Wild West And and and also the state part of me they take use it's crowded and yeah My personal feeling is that the state should be doing more of that as part of a park But you know, that makes sense. It has been told by doing some sort of some collaboration Yeah, and we went away once I think once out of the three years ago, but it just didn't Work out as well. We didn't get the numbers that we thought we would and we really decided just to focus on What we think the big need is more of the trailer-based activity is really either the dam or Blushill Yeah, I think you see more Canoes kayaks and stuff there, but you still see some boats But there's just a limited amount of parking space there for boats. So I don't think the boaters are going Yeah, I've been told that There's days certain days during the summer when that Lake is just pretty much inaccessible. Yeah You get Blush Hill. It's really nice what the state has done to improve the access, but There used to be sometimes if you go on a summer day They will weigh up that access road the trailers And sometimes you'd have to wait half hour to put in Yeah, then you get some knucklehead hung up in the ditch with the boat out trailer out in the middle of the road and Things get really interesting. Chuck. It's a good. It's a really good and well worth worthwhile project. Thank you for So you're looking for a motion I'll make a motion to Authorize going forward with the grant and bill would sign it All second, and I think it's tremendous value for the small amount of money here. Thank you Appreciate what you do there Chuck. So we got a motion and a tie for a second. So All those in favor of the wish to approve this motion, please say aye. Hi Thanks again Chuck Good luck. Good luck this year Bill I was going to ask I think maybe last meeting you mentioned that the draining of the reservoir is going to come to an end Seasonally, is that actually helping us? So the speculation that the fact that they draw the reservoir down and expose a Certain level of the shoreline to freezing temperatures that that may be helpful to You know when they fix their tainter gates the new license that Green Mountain Power has and so the Pool will be kept at the summer pool level Which means there will not be a drop of I think it's like 30 feet or something like that difference And there's some you know when you're in the shallow areas You can really see there's a long way you walk out before you hit the water So when when the dam is finally fixed, they're not going to lower and raise the level of the water anymore and that might The concern is might make it more attractive to mill foil But I think it's still going to be a number of years before the federal government ponies up the money to do the work I mean it's a I 100 billion dollar project or something like that well, maybe there'll be somebody around at that point that will remind them of that scenario and Keep a steady eye on it And if they see any indication of it at all of course by that point if they go through all these efforts to change that To be able to go back to lowering that only for the simple fact of killing Those invasives before they get too much of a strong foothold Might be something they might want to consider that's possible. It's it's a double-edged sword though because 25 years ago or more maybe and Maybe you remember but you know the the state tried to make the reservoir Trophy trout area where they were expecting the rainbow trout might get to be you know two feet long And the trout just don't grow to the degree that they think they should and the biologists Also have done research and speculate a little bit, but they think that the The up and down of the water is detrimental to the water quality because it is conducive to erosion you've got these You know bear banks in the springtime and it rains in the snow melt and a lot of silt gets water Washed in there so they're thinking that the trout don't grow as big as they would if if you didn't do that So who knows what's going to be more of a problem is I think and this Chuck's program it's not going to do anything about it is like not weed along the shorelines because Not weeds becoming a problem everywhere And I remember when I was chair of the conservation Commission when the reservoir was drained down We did a cutting project to cut you know some of the not weed was establishing because we didn't want it to when it filled back up You know, we didn't want to have it to have roots there That's going to be a problem. I were on that detail, too Do you think any of that landslide Material that's gone in there is going to have any repercussions Can that's always a lot of material that went in there. Yeah, the state geologists right now I went to the program up at the Green Mountain Club a couple weeks ago She indicates it looks like most of the silt is washing right through and going right out To the Winooski and will ultimately You know silt up like shit But it certainly has been detrimental to the water quality. I know the Northern arm or the Western arm or whatever you want to call it was quite Turbid all of last year and the Little River was really turbid all year long. So I Remember when they were Reconstructing the dam here not too long ago and they drained the lake down At one point I was on the Waterbury Center side and I was looking at the bottom of the lake and I said What a perfect time because there was a huge gravel deposit there What a perfect time to go in there and extract some of that material out of the lake deepening the lake And probably benefiting it by making it deeper And having that aggregate source for for whatever use And maybe in the future if it comes to a point where they have to drain that down again and there in the Indications of silt areas that it filled then maybe they could not out but that's Knows if that'll ever come about Thanks, thanks. Thanks. Yeah, sometimes common sense doesn't look like if you ever need a greeter I might be able to help Okay onto the manager's items which are pretty much Yeah, so I Hope that the information I sent out on Saturday night Kind of speaks for itself Just briefly because I view this now really as as your meeting I'll answer questions But I'm not going to try to convince the board of anything Two of you weren't here last week and there was you know what I did a week ago was present the three operating funds Including the library budget And and showed that the three operating funds as they were built last week Had a 51 cent tax rate which was no increase over the previous year and back in December that was a goal that you asked me to get to and You know, I did that I worked on that for a couple of weeks in the back of my mind wondering what would be the situation when we looked at the Capital funds, and I knew that we built the capital funds a year ago So that if everything happened exactly according to Hoyle according to last year's budget that would end 19 with about thirty thousand dollars in the bank, and you know that we had fire trucks We bought one last year We didn't borrow for it because we had cash and waiting to borrow until 2020 Will put the payment the first payment off until 2021 so it won't impact this year's tax rate but anyway, I Came up with a capital budget last week that Was in deficit by about 260 or 280 thousand dollars and I said, you know in order to End the year with zero in the bank. You need about a four cent tax increase to To accomplish that or you have to borrow Or you can do a combination of the two and Chris and Mark had a dialogue and My takeaway from that was that I should try to come back with a budget That maybe kind of you know split that down the middle to a degree So the first thing that I did Without and I tried to do it independently. So I wouldn't be influenced one way or the other. I said well Let's just add three cents to the tax rate. So we go from fifty one to fifty four cents and Since our operating funds are where all the transfers into the CIP come from I said three cents multiplied three by Seven point six million dollars, which is our grand list and came up with a number Two hundred and twenty nine thousand three hundred and forty dollars That could be put in the aggregate into all the transfer from the operating funds to the CIP funds So that was the first thing that I did and then without looking at what that was going to do to the CIP I knew it was going to add two hundred and thirty thousand dollars But without looking at all the different bottom lines in those CIP's then I went through and I tried to identify Borrowing that could be done Things that would be reasonable to borrow for as I said in the memo Even though we kind of have a CIP fund that we use in the aggregate I didn't borrow for any paving funds because There was some kind of disagreement as to whether we should be borrowing for things that are rather temporal, you know Seven-year lives that you have to just do the whole thing over again So the borrowing I targeted was for for infrastructure and for vehicle purchases and clearly we already had authority from last year and I Said okay, we had authority to borrow nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars for fire trucks We had authority to borrow a hundred and twenty five thousand dollars for the roadside more And then I went through and I said well, okay, we're going to do a roof on the highway garage. Maybe we should Borrow for that. We're going to do a roof on the Bathhouse garage maybe we should borrow for that We're going to do a hundred and seventy thousand dollar bridge project. Maybe we should borrow for that So I identified places that we could borrow and then again taking a page from the discussion that We've had in the past they said well Rather than borrow Nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the fire trucks. They're going to last 20 years Why don't I take the fire truck nine hundred and fifty thousand dollar borrowing authority? Divide that by 20 years and then subtract one year from that In essence paying cash for the first year. So for the fire trucks instead of borrowing 950,000 I show borrowing 902,500 dollars And I did that for other Other borrowing in there for the for the roadside more We have authority to borrow 125, but the more is only going to cost 1 16 8 So you really can't borrow for more than you purchase price is going to be So I took the 1 16 8 and I divided that by 20 years Because Celia said the tractor portion of that anyway should last 20 years given how we'll use it And and borrow 110 and I did that for all the borrowing so I kind of discounted the amount that to borrow and then I then identified the length of time and I came up with You know somewhere in the 15 to 18 year range in the aggregate So anyway, that's what I did and if we borrowed what I identified and if we raised three cents We would end up In the CIP funds with About 268,000 dollars in the bank at the end of 2020 if everything else came out exactly as Planned and 268,000 dollars in the bank is a whole lot more than the $30,000 that we anticipated ending 2019 in So I said, okay, that's that's kind of a good thing and now here's where you folks come into play If you Want to keep the tax rate a little bit more manageable If you only raise two cents instead of three cents you're going to raise You know 150,000 dollars instead of 230,000 dollars If you want to borrow a little bit less you can do that So it's really it's really kind of your choice as to which way you want to go I'm going to pass this out. This is an update to the Borrowing chart that I passed out at the meeting we had in November when we were buying the fire trucks I don't want to talk about this now, but I just want you to have it I'll stop there and let you kind of ask questions about Where we are at this point based on what I just said about the memo and what I sent out on Saturday night So I'll let you folks kind of take it from there. I guess my first question is does everybody understand? What they'll just explain It's a lot to get wrap your arms around So if you got any questions, they'll be afraid to ask So when you say previously Previously Authorized borrowing that means anything that was on last year's Yeah, so when I talked about previously authorized borrowing I was basically talking about what we authorized in November the fire trucks and alongside more Because last March if I remember correctly, we didn't do any borrowing after last year's so this is just from the special meeting, right? Okay, right well mark, and I had a little bit of back and forth there last week He's a little bit more in favor of amortizing things out And his bill had suggested here earlier. He kind of took off the table possibly borrowing for Paving projects because of their volatile life expectancy in fear that the you know the borrowed money might Exceed the the life of the road. So you're paying on a dead horse essentially I Came in to see bill about a couple out of the things today Last week he had suggested that we kind of sit on this think about it through the course of the week And I did just that I think it's been pretty well known by the board here that I don't like to borrow money any more than we have to So thinking about this a little bit more in-depth trying to keep in mind Where we're at aren't our paving projects the number of paving projects that we still have yet to come I'm not necessarily in favor of Borrowing any money to satisfy This problem I would rather see an increase of three and possibly four cents to take care of the issue that we have here in front of us and Dedicate that money Raise the money necessary to take care of the paving projects and if there's anything additional Maybe go towards whatever else it can go towards But I look at it this way If we do a split 50-50 borrow half borrow and raise some money some of that borrowed money is going to be out there for a number of years and To raise to just raise the money To go to maybe four cents or I had even suggested Based on the cost of the paving projects that we're going to be Involved in here the next couple of years I Hate to say this and I'm hesitant to say it But if it meant even going a bit higher than that in four cents Once you raise that money That money would go towards this year's project, which is paving Maple Street in Howard Ave You've raised the tax rate by four cents plus or minus Money's dedicated towards Paving projects. We're not we're not having to borrow to satisfy our problem and Next year Instead of having a loan over our head. We've got that money that is now freed up I'm having raised it this year spent the money on on Maple Street and Howard Ave. So next year that same Four cents is available again To go towards another paving project whether it be up the road Burns Hill blush Hill whatever and I'm looking at it as a Perhaps a one-time increase. I'd like to think that it's a one-time increase to get us Through the next several years to satisfy our paving project needs and Once we get through the bulk of these projects either that In the next four or five years either that can drop off If we feel we don't need that or portion of it that let's call it four cents for argument's sake Let's say it once we get through this quagmire of these heavier road problems That we come to the conclusion that geez We're at the point where we need that we're at a manageable point now. We're no longer in a desperate Scenario where our roads are deteriorated. We've gotten away from that Is there a possibility that we can give back two cents of that? We don't need it anymore and the other two cents will help go towards maintaining Those roads that have been brought back to where they should be or does that money just stay there? Lows us not to borrow my fear of borrowing is It's kind of like dog crap once you get it on your foot. It's there for a while You can't just shake it off and and with a tax rate increase Let's say something happens in the next couple of years Again a downturn in the economy a drastic downturn or a shift in in the economy that puts up a more Harder burden on our financial state and we need somehow to cut back We can't cut back a borrowed loan It's there We're on the hook Where if we have the available tax rate Yeah, maybe for whatever reason we got a kick-to-can On a couple of paving projects in order to reduce the budget, but we have the ability to do that We're borrowed money. You don't you don't have that ease of getting rid of it So what number were you thinking about as it? Well before Bill had kind of landed on a final Number here. He said to me at a meeting there him and I had I Don't know I don't have enough information to tell you exactly where I'm gonna land here And I said well if I had to speculate it's gonna be somewhere between three and four cents and here we are right at that number I Guess I Deferred a bill as to whether or not I don't feel that three cents is adequate I feel that four cents might do the job Tell me if you had a four cent in increase And you have a three hundred thousand dollar house. What would that cost you per year? Well, we did it last week with a four hundred thousand dollar home, and it was a hundred and sixty dollars additional I'm correct I was I was doing three hundred On a four hundred it would have been a hundred and hundred and sixty so with that I also asked Bill what the potential education tax rate increase Combined with this four-cent municipal tax rate Might end up costing us and I think you said $400 total For on a full on a four hundred thousand dollar home So it will on a four hundred thousand dollar home the education costs the education in possible education increase And our municipal tax rate of four cents would add an additional $400 to a four hundred thousand dollar home Or three or three hundred on your three hundred thousand dollar so and I and Trust me. I'm fully aware of the fact that it's not an increase that any of us want to see But yet we're in this predicament where years of not being able to Adequately put enough revenue in our in our CIP budgets to keep up with our paving projects has now forced us Into this scenario where? We really there's no escape. We have to deal with it. Somehow It's just whether or not we want to leverage ourselves Which I'm in fear of doing I always like to keep an ace in the hole and And if we can prevent ourselves from leveraging ourselves out for any of this It gives us it gives us a safety net And like I said if for some reason we're up against the wall whether it be next year year after And we need to shake a tax increase Or reduce the tax somehow We have the option of doing that where if you're tied to it You know a note pretty tough to Feel back so that's my pitch and so Well somebody else I'm on that bill on your original Or you said three cents and then what was your borrowing number? You borrowing of $393,200 What was authorized last fall the last falls loan will be going into place Yeah We haven't borrowed anything based on what we you know the fire trucks and all the rest of it We have not borrowed anything yet. We bought one of the fire trucks for $460,000 we had cash we still have cash in the bank So I'm not going to borrow until we have to I typically try not to Try not to borrow until After the So when the payment is due a year from now that it's after taxes has come in because I don't want to have to borrow a tax anticipation money to pay a debt if we can have our Borrowing come do So the one other thing I'd kind of like to add now that's kind of brought to my mind here if we're talking about a If we're negotiating over a penny Whether to borrow or not to borrow if it's if it's $160 on a $400,000 house Penny would be $40 difference that difference is to leverage or to not leverage Yeah, that's what I'm trying to understand exactly the scenarios before I comment too far Yeah, so again, I try to look at it independently mark, you know identify things that were reasonable to borrow for and I came up with the 393 and then raise the money But an extra penny doesn't get us 400,000 right an extra penny gets us 70 or 80,000 so I guess I'm trying to understand The next one penny gets about seventy six thousand dollars right now so I don't really understand the three cents plus the 393 and somehow the four cent no borrowing is an equal Scenario wouldn't it be like three cents with 80,000 and borrowing or four cents with no borrowing or something like that I guess I'm I don't fully I'm just trying to understand So my other concern is and I think we talked about this last week is if we do this scenario of splitting borrow and raise We're gonna be back here next year having to do the same thing And I was just wondering if we and then a year after that we're gonna be doing the same thing Well, I think that's where you got a look at your outstanding debt chart because you have debts that are decreasing on a yearly basis and some are falling off so Eventually you're not if you are replacing debt with new debt so in certain times you're gonna have to consider taking debt I think on larger Purchases, but I do agree with you that the last thing I want to see us do is get the CIP's Basically depleted on a yearly basis because I think the whole point of CIP is that we're building up some level of cash for large purchases I guess that's where I started to want to try to take the conversation a little bit. So back to the what you just said I I started with saying, okay How much would if we raised three cents and just that dumped that into the CIP how much would that be and that and that was The 229 thousand two hundred thirty thousand dollars and then when I went through and identified what things we could borrow I was trying to do those independently So then when I had both numbers 393 thousand dollars of borrowing $230,000 so the additional tax money. I just threw it all into the CIP and that's where we end up with 268 thousand dollar fund balance in there Next year at this time of year. So then at that point, it's like how much are you comfortable with we had 30,000 dollars in the bank after 2019 do we really need two hundred and thirty thousand dollars more than that So if you read following through on my as I get down to the end of my memo It's like if you lowered the tax rate to two cents and reduce the borrowing by a hundred and twenty thousand dollars You'd end up with seventy two thousand dollars in the CIP at the end of next year, which is you know Two two point two five times more than you had last year So I wasn't necessarily saying you should borrow 393 and raise three cents I was just trying to see what that would generate where that would Let the CIP end and then allow you folks to kind of talk about it from there, but to your point right now Into all the CIPs And I added the three cent number. So I've got to take that out. So that was one point one One point one eight. So subtract So, you know right now I told you, you know, we're I think without the three cent increase We're putting about nine hundred thousand dollars into the CIPs If we're gonna spend five hundred thousand dollars a year just on paving. There's only four hundred foot for everything else so You're not going to be able to meet your needs without borrowing unless you want to add 15 cents to the Tax rate because there's bridges. There's vehicles. There's fire vehicles and everything else And I'm not trying to argue against your point I'm just saying that if we raised four cents and just dump that into the CIP Four cents every year forever isn't ever going to get us enough Because we got more than paving to do right and we're going to be using a specific five-ninths of what we're raising for paving right and I specifically was talking about Generating the revenue by by raising a tax rate of four cents Which would hopefully get us through this these next series of years in Addressing most of the big being paid big paving projects Without having to borrow money so that when those bridges and other things come Come do we have the ability to leverage for those? And then to your point mark you talked about some of these notes Reducing every year That's to our benefit that that can help mitigate Increases in the inflation of the budget For the next you know, I won't say foreseeable years, but possibly Next year in a year after so that we don't have to Go after more for some other reason, you know It just just inflation rates in the general budget itself can be knocked can be can be you know even doubt by Reductions in the in the note so It's not going to help for this year's town meeting but And I we talked about it last year and unfortunately The Main Street project getting going that took up some of my time even though not as much as took up a field Woodruff's and barbed fires time, but Within the last year or so. I have updated lists from Celia with regard to highway equipment that needs to be purchased over the next 15 years and I kind of showed you that last week I have the list from Gary in the fire department and then that List that I passed out a week ago from Alec Which was about infrastructure not about paving but about bridges and culverts and stuff like that So I think I'm in a position right now where probably, you know, I'm gonna Relax for a few weeks after we're done with this but probably by May I can come back to the board and say okay this is our capital needs except for paving for the foreseeable future the grand scheme and and Although I know that you concentrate on the paved roads and I think you know, there's a good reason why you do I think if we realize that You know within a few years here. We've bumped up to Committing to $500,000 a year for paving from the 250 to 300 that we have that's a pretty big increase So I think if we for the foreseeable future Call paving a half a million dollars a year and then look at everything else that we have on a schedule And you know, I've got a big spreadsheet. That's Three times as big as this page and it's that long and I've got you know Investing rates in there and all this stuff. We don't have enough money to invest our CIP funds any more in anything long-term we used to And actually invest it and in securities if we had $286,000 like I suggested in that spreadsheet if we did the three cent tax rate and borrowing We wouldn't invest $286,000 in the in the market because we know we're gonna have to spend more than $286,000 last year. I mean next year we put it in the CD maybe But Within a couple months I can have the future Not down to the penny, but a really good estimate of what we need to do and Then you'll be able to see what you can what you're gonna be able to do I don't think you're gonna be able to do it all Without borrowing you're gonna have to borrow there's some police no way that you're gonna be able to do all the things that are on those lists without borrowing and Again, I'm not I told Chris this morning the easiest thing to do And the easiest thing to do is simply add to the tax rate because The borrowing and the the scenario that I put together for borrowing here, you know We're gonna have to borrow money By note and then a year from now We're gonna have to work with the lawyer in the bank And we're gonna have to try to refund some of that and turn some of those notes into bonds Or we could go to the voters and simply ask them Either at a special town meeting or at next year's town meeting Do you want to convert this much money from notes to bonds? But the select one has the authority to do that on its own motion The borrowing scheme as we go forward And trying to determine on the handout that I passed out What our future? debt service expenses are you know There's it's a complicated Matter so it's a lot easier if you just say you know Let's make a 55 cent tax rate raise the taxes by four cents. That's a simple thing to do and it's a Not a risky thing to do when you go to the to the borrowing markets, you know, they're gonna look at your debt If you follow a front porch forum, there have been people that have commented. Well, the Ethan Allen Institute put out a Report card for all of Vermont towns and you know, what a breeze number is a 49 and that's not very good And you know, we're in fiscal Parallel well, I don't think we're in fiscal peril because I don't believe the Ethan Allen Institute gave any credit to the Two and a half million dollars or so that we've got in reserve funds. They they're just looking at oh You've got this much debt and you've got this much of a budget and that percentage is high and You've got at the end of the year. You've got, you know a four million dollar operating budget and you've got $100,000 in the bank and you know, they want you to have 20% or whatever it is If they fact it in what we've got in reserves the tax stabilization fund is a million dollars We've got other funds that you know are significant I don't think we're as bad off as they say, but you know, the banks are going to say I Think they would let us Borrow the one point four million dollars. That's what we're talking about because it's 393,000 dollars More than we had authority for last year and even though I trimmed the amount that I anticipated Borrowing for all these things by one year's worth. It's still one point four six one point four million dollars of new borrowing in 2020 if we do this so it's a lot simpler to Just raise the tax rate and it's probably from a standpoint of Fiscal responsibility Some of the people like you can now an institute would think it's you're in a better position But I put this together to remind you again, and this is probably not completely accurate I but What I did was update this So at the top of the page you can see what we owed in 2017 And you know you add those two things together, and I I guess I didn't do it But five million two forty five and eight hundred and fifty three so, you know six six plus million dollars of Outstanding debt in 2017 In two thousand at the end of two thousand nineteen six hundred and sixty seven thousand three hundred This is down two-thirds of the way down in the left-hand column and four point four million to others So, you know, we're a little more than five million dollars now So, you know, we paid off between Seventeen and nineteen a considerable amount of money Almost a million bucks And then in two thousand twenty if we added this Borrowing that I'm talking about here you can see over in the bottom left new debt issue two thousand twenty the one point four million dollars is there One ninety eight four fifty is to us because I would I would of the borrowing that we're talking about doing for next year I would I would borrow almost two hundred thousand dollars from ourselves and then one point two million dollars from the bank But across the top of the page is our current debt Before we added the fire department stuff and everything last year and then down the bottom the chart shows that if we had the One point four million dollars of Dead outstanding I actually did it on the one point two million dollars I think eighty thousand five hundred dollars eighty thousand five hundred and ten dollars of principle Would be necessary over a fifteen year amortization So while a lot of these things would have twenty year lives I've tried to take into consideration what Chris has said You could make it a lower amount if you borrowed it over a longer period of time but I just took 15 years and then you can see the interest there and then Moving to the right What the total payments are and I added to the total payments there the 128 815 that would show up in 2022 as a total payment That is adding 48 and 80 and I guess it must be the principal and interest over current going over further Anyway, somewhere I added the interest on Money that we would be borrowing from ourselves. I didn't include the principal there, but you can do this And borrow This one point four million dollars and the impact to the tax rate in the worst year Which I think would be next year Looks like it's about one point six cents added to your tax rate if you if you borrow this money, so Again, I think borrowing is a reasonable tool especially when we're talking about a public entity where you know at the end of At the end of 30 years You're not going to own your house free and clear because you're going to have to buy a new house or a new truck or a new Bridge or whatever it is that the pain for this stuff that it never ends So you're going to always have to finance it either through a tax rate or through a borrowing or or a combination so Anyway It's just my opinion But I think these are the facts. This is what the borrowing costs us Here on this page 1.6 cents in 2022 I have a few comments When I think you did a good stab at everything I too believe in that we need to look at a combination of Tax increase and long-term borrowing I would hate to borrow for things such as paving and stuff like that because that's really a short-term borrowing thing You know, but if we're going to put culverts and bridge work and stuff like that. I have a lot less problem Borrowing for that type of infrastructure needs the one thing I looked I know I spent several hours looking through the budget and I I don't know if it's Visible even to look at it now, but looking at all the budget line items And you put a good job putting everything together, but we never seem to look at Significant decreases program cuts, you know cuts in different places that would make more of a major impact and I don't know if you know, that's probably something we need to Sit down maybe not at a board meeting and kind of again It's probably not for this year's budget. Well, you can only do it at a board meeting You can't sit down anywhere else and talk about it. Well, you can't you can't strategy on it, you know, just like have a No, no, you've got it. You're a public elected body. I know we're a public elected body, but You could come in and one-on-one basis and talk with bill about your thoughts and you can Not get together and and not do it in a public meeting, right? Or or you know, I think it's more of an informational kind of thing not, you know making decisions No, I understand and you know, I I I would be hard-pressed If you asked me where can we cut? You know back I don't know five years ago. I can't remember what it was You know we presented a budget and the voters at town meeting told us to add money to it because they wanted a full-time recreation Right, that's the only thing new that we've had Right, you know, we're paying a little bit more there But you know the programs that he's offering in them and you know, they're generating some Revenue that at least it's You know those new programs are I'll be but you know, I know you're this is your you know, you're just finishing your first year bike, but yeah You know, I look at our office staff compared to other towns and see where other towns have municipal manager or finance director of Human resources director two or three bookkeepers and you know, we have me and a bookkeeper and You know, I've said a long time you guys do a great job I'm not sure where we're going to cut the budget right my point and like people want this parking enforcement officer I don't know where we're gonna find you know Additionally, you know as I told you I said the thing that all the people complained about the parking I said you're a volunteer staff to give out tickets and You know, I'm sure they're not going to accept that very well And you know if the board wants to cut that's fine. It's just it's it's not possible right now You know Chris has talked about you know cutting the salt budget and you know the budget that we have for a salt line I and it was far less than we spent in 2019. So we're already Yeah, I mean I appreciate your sentiment Mike, but I think that you know For us to go in there You know, like Bill said, there's nothing there's not one line item that we can go right go to bat for but The things that we can do are in in education of our employees of Trying to get a handle on wasteful practices And that that that can show up in the bottom line Rather quickly If we can if we can get Making too many passes with the snow plow, you know There might be some small changes that we could we could affect That could that could turn into giant changes In the amount we're spending to do what we do so does that mean some kind of inventory and How do you suss that out? I'll throw this into the mix one thing I've been thinking about doing we had a conversation here a while back I don't know how many of you remember it where the road foreman was here and I talked about The goal to accumulate overtime At the highway department. It's it's not just This town it's it's a statewide issue every town highway department Does a similar thing including? our state agency of transportation highway guys son-in-law who is an engineer for the state and during the winter because of their lack of help they They put him behind the steering wheel the plow truck To help with maintaining their road conditions during the winter at that meeting I wasn't Looking to pick a fight as to the overtime issue, but I was more concerned about what was Happening in those hours that accumulated that over time and as I had suggested There's really not a lot to do during the winter so the guys get sent out on the roads to check the roads and they're fully loaded in their trucks and nine times out of ten they come back empty whether it needed to be emptied or not and for Reasons that they don't want to be accused of not doing their job and Whatever so thinking about that a bit. I will throw this proposal out there for you to think about in the future You know, I as I said I'm going to bring this discussion Hopefully to the table from an environmental standpoint at town meeting when we get into the the climate change issue, but Well, it seems like I will not finish with Jane. Please give me a second here. I would be interested in wondering if on those days when The roads don't need to be dealt with If they come in in the morning and do what they have to do In the roads are fine for the rest of the day rather than them hanging around and going out in the afternoon to do what I had just suggested Can we send them home with pay? That way they're not They're not burning the fuel. They're not wearing the trucks. They're not spreading the material You know that an option. It's it's an option I did something like that in island pond when I was there over 30 years ago I talked about it here. So for instance what what I Proposed and I have to think about the the actual Proposal was you know, if you come in today and you work two hours and there's nothing else to do And you go home You know, we'll we'll pay you for the day But if it snow starting at midnight and you come out or it's at 8 o'clock and you come out Then those four hours will be added to your two hours and you know in other words We're not going to just pay you for the day and then you get overtime when you come out at 8 o'clock at night You you get paid for the day But if you didn't work those four hours, let's say, but you went home at noon time. So you worked from So you're saying you give them that for eight to four credit time eight to four eight to noon They worked so they worked those four hours and then they went home and If that was and they did that all week long They would have worked 20 hours and they would have got paid for 40 hours, right? But if they came out at 8 o'clock at night and worked till midnight Then you just add those four hours to the four hours they worked in the morning and it would be eight hours for the day regular time at regular time and you know the the Response I get back and I understand is look, you know, we have to be around we can't go away in the winter We've got to be available And you don't give us on call time pay. So, you know, if we're working So we've tried different things and it it hasn't so they want their overtime is what you're basically telling me Which I'm not arguing with that. I'm just saying I mean, right brought up for a number of years But so I'm saying that can this scenario still have a good impact From a budget perspective, they still keep their overtime or some Negotiated in between if that's possible. I'm not looking to Chop their feet off from the overtime perspective. I'm looking to Cut back on Some of these other issues. I get it. I understand right so we can have a conversation Yeah, I think what you heard me say is I had a similar idea. We tried to do it How did it work? So you're saying that's how it worked in island pond when I left we were doing it there And you know, it was only a two-man road crew and I thought it was very different than what you have here anyway There's a lot of things we can talk about after Two weeks from now, right? Yeah, I understood. Let's not get barred down Because he's going to brought it up about looking at practices it might be a way It seems like, you know, you can you can involve these people, you know, there's their jobs have it have a kind of a shakedown or a Conversation with them and use them to help try to solve the problem. You know, how do you think we can save money? You know, what do you do it and I would I would make it an organized Activity, you know, whether you need a facilitator to help you or something But just make it serious and see if they come up. They must have some creative ideas, too What are they willing to offer? So part of part of my goal on town meeting, you know, I don't want to get into quagmire here talking about this but part of my goal at town meeting is to Turn the responsibility of this particular topic into the hands of the people at town meeting That part of the reason why These things haven't changed over the last 30 years is because of the public's response if they're not out there doing what they're supposed to be doing or what they You know, they get the phone calls a bitching My road's not sanded. I can't go uphill and two-wheel drive with bald tires. What the hell's matter with you? How come you're not here? I'm gonna turn this around Say to the public we'll see how serious you are about solving some of these climate issues put your money where your mouth is Here's one of the problems that this town is faced with That it's going to take cooperation from you people the public To do certain things To lessen the ability or the requirement of the town crew to have to go out And make sure that you guys have the red carpet laid out for you Let's see how serious you are About wanting to contribute to changing some of these problems environmental problems So I'm going to put a responsibility in their lap and Make them commit to us To allow us the flexibility to either put a policy in place that our highway department will have to follow or Do something, you know do something But the same person that's going to complain about the services then they're going to be the same person That's going to complain about the increases in taxes We see this all the time You know people want services Then they complain about their taxes going up and that's where sometimes you have to look at what services you can Supply the public at a reasonable dollar amount And I agree here is to kill two birds with one stone if they agree if the public can agree to allow the town To maybe not be spreading so much product on the roads and you know hammering the trucks more when they shouldn't have to be They should be parked in the garage instead of out on the and beating the hell out of the roads That's a that's a budget savings, so So can I just make a suggestion? I jar anything that might be reasonable, but Maybe you can have this conversation The meeting before town meeting and talk about what we're going to do on town meeting because We're not going to be able to change the budget, which I gotta get this done And we have deadlines and you know, I'm hopeful that we don't have to that we can Not only agree to something tonight, but we can have enough information that it's finalized that we don't have to come back next Monday to Put a stamp on it. So I We need to kind of get back to this stuff for tonight So having said that I'm gonna pitch my one last pitch here And then I'm gonna leave it up to you guys to make the final call here I just don't feel like we have enough to even go there yet, right? Like I I haven't I don't feel like I have a clear understanding of if we do no borrowing. What's the number? Four cents enough. I don't think it is right for this year. It is sure. Yeah, so four cents would be enough What would we end up with in the CIP? At four cents well Well, if it's if one cent to 76,000, it's around 304,000 for four cents, right, but we had bills Presented us with three cents and far in of 393 to end up with 200 and something in the CIP. I believe All right, Chris. I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm just trying to fully understand the scenarios here before so I'll just add to this scenario of the four cents, okay? If this four cents is available to us Year after year which it should be if it goes You know in my mind it's going towards paving, okay? It'll come out in a wash somewhere But I'm kind of dedicating this in my mind to the four cents to the paving problem problems that we have that should solve them in The next four years five years whatever it takes if that number stays available for that And then after that once the roads are and I think I may have mentioned this once the roads are back to a Manageable point then we can start to do that like you suggested the you know get into the overlay Mode as opposed to the total reconstruct mode here That four cents whether we if we choose not to give up any of it And who knows what'll happen with asphalt prices between now and the end of next five years But if they stay relatively the same That four cents doing just simply repaves would do a lot more road in one year then Then we do now From a total rebuild so mark. I if my see if this makes sense to you if you start with Ending fund balance that I have on this page, which is 268 382 So if you start with like a big horse tranquilizer this stuff if you start with a 268 382 which is got three cents worth of tax increase and and 393 thousand dollars of borrowing right so if you start with 368 352 subtract the 393 200 of borrowing from it. So that means you're done. No no borrowing and Then oh no, then you'd add You'd only add one cent So 76,000 so you'd be you'd be just you'd be about $50,000 under Still so four cents Probably won't quite do it To get this Just to break you at zero with no Right borrowing, right? So you have to do some I think you've got to do some borrowing So if we were three cents 393,200 that hasn't been previously authorized 393,000 right On top of what's already been granted or authorized That three three. Did you ever have any time to think about the? Option to the two options to present to the voters and let them choose which we'd prefer to do We talked about allowing them to choose whether we wanted to borrow or Just raise the actually give them I think to be maybe I'm cynical knowledge. Yeah at at town meeting They're not going to have it. You know, there's going to be a select group That's going to have an in-depth knowledge of the budget and stuff like that, but You're going based upon emotions there. You're gonna be how many hours do you want to be at the town meeting? I Don't even think it's that I think some people Can grasp it others are just going to go based upon emotions. Well, I think As I said last week For them and then you see the yay or nay So the amount that the board is going to recommend The tax increase to be is going to be in the general fund budgets and then the The capital budget You're going to ask the voters to authorize the sum of money to be expended from the capital funds and We probably should I didn't catch this earlier and we should and to authorize some of money to be expended from the capital funds and To authorize the select board to borrow So on that one You can have your conversation. We know what the value of the Expenditures that we want to spend this year. It's $1,984,000 that we have to spend in capital budgeting Between a dump truck the one ton the two fire trucks one fire the tractor one fire. Oh, okay one fire truck the tractor The paving that's what I mean See IP paving projects So you're going to have That amount that you are going to ask for the authority to spend and Then you can at in the same motion say and authorize up to x amount to be borrowed So probably we should switch If we just switched article seven and eight flipped them Have them talk about the capital first and how much they want to borrow and Then if they don't want to borrow then when we get to what's article seven now, you're going to have to say We're going to have to amend the budget That's in the book because the one in the book has three cents or four cents or two cents Whatever you decide tonight, and you'd have to add that in To the budget increase that night. Yeah, that's to your your Question about giving them the option. I think we need to propose a budget. Yes, and then you know on the floor they have the right to as It always happens a town meeting Change that budget based upon Discussion. Yeah, I really think that the board needs to recommend what it wants So react to the public So we're going to have you're going to have to decide this not just wait until the public can decide Exactly if so, I'll just I'll throw this out again And I'll let you guys land the plane He's as he said in a couple of weeks, he'll be able to Or shortly there thereafter. He'll be able to come to us with some form of a grand scheme for the next perceivable future That grand scheme as he said, we won't be able to get out of it without borrowing. I'm Reluctant to borrow now based on the knowledge that Future borrowing is inevitable. I just rather put that off until it's absolutely necessary That's where I stop. So is your proposal like a Four and a half or five cent Whatever it takes we need 390 Getting like More or point six, but I might be right. I think it's it's close It's between four and a half and five somewhere. I think we ended up 48 negative 48,000 and the four and a half doesn't get us any CIP There's no right. There's no like right. So you're nothing to carry over But actually five to have the 30 the $30,000 that we had at the end of 19 and the aggregate I think you'd need five cents because we were minus 48 before and to get to 30. That's about 70 or 80 so you need about five cents to get to 25 thousand dollars in the five cents would be I was gonna ask Anna 300,000 office 160 and dad another Another 40 200 I mean the one thing that And I and I so I totally respect The concerns surrounding debt and I think it's something that we can't take lightly When we consider taking on debt, but I think the one thing that we Have to consider is the impact especially You know as we know that the school taxes are increasing that debt at times is a smart way to do business There are large debts that are gonna be coming off. I know it's not necessarily shown on this chart, but No in Ten years which you know if we're catching up on paving and in the ten year mark We have one loan right now that I think is taking just over $200,000 a year and debt payment Now these are big numbers and then in five more years you basically have those two large bonds paid off You know each year we're seeing a decrease of 35 and 22 and 17 and that's compared to the previous year so We're paying down debt. We're paying less principal and interest payment on a yearly basis. We don't take on new debt I just think it's more I Fear going to the voters with a five-cent increase And with that five-cent increase we would still be putting Almost nothing into the CIP Which is another concern of mine so that portion of money that we would spend on the paving Would be there next year without having to increase for it because it's a one-time expenditure From April Street and Howard ad this year, so Understand so that yeah, but I don't you wouldn't go going into the CIP that everyone paid two cents more This that year and two cents more the next year For something that I think we can do through the use of Of debt I guess one of the questions I had to bill was You had mentioned that we had been paying down ours our own debt to ourselves and we could Re-capture some of that to ourselves, which maybe you were starting to mention some of this could be but My I always liked the idea that some of this could be our own debt with interest paid to ourselves Yeah, so on this sheet And I was just looking at that as you were talking and at the end of 2017 We owed 853 thousand dollars out of Like six point one million to ourselves At the end of nineteen we owe six sixty seven. That's two-thirds of the way down the page And then if you added this would be up to seven seventy two So I was sitting here saying well you were the one eighty six was what you were adding that was subtracting 186 was the difference between the eight fifty three three hundred at the top of the page in the six sixty seven three hundred Now so we paid Ourselves back hundred eighty six thousand dollars since 2017 We have less debt to ourselves by hundred eighty six thousand So, you know, I'm thinking to myself about why seven seventy two if we went back up to eight fifty three What we were at seventeen and I think at the high watermark we were around nine hundred That we had borrowed from ourselves But the challenge of course is when you're borrowing from yourselves You know, we've already we've already got 667 thousand dollars out of that that we were investing before We're paying ourselves back four percent. So it's a good fixed income But how much can we take out without? Risking but it might be a good year to take more out because you know, it's been 12 years The stock market's been going up like that. One of these is it's going to go down. So But I think that You know, there's a lot of analysis that I would do before we borrow anything We're I'm going to try not to borrow anything from an outside source until at least after July and preferably not until November or December because I'd like to get a full year's worth and Have to pay the principal and interest after we've collected taxes like next year as opposed to before So, you know, there's a lot of analysis that can happen between now and then when it comes time to borrow I Think, you know, Chris my only I don't even think this is a disagreement with you. I Don't think we're ever going to be in a position where we're not going to have to borrow I think borrowing is going to have to be a regular occurrence and We've had a couple of years now where we didn't even borrow from ourselves and we've been able to pay ourselves back but Now, you know, we ended the year with $30,000 in Well, we ended the year with negative in the Cip's because we had a fire truck that we had to buy last year that we didn't think we were going to have to But if the budget had come out right, we're going to have $30,000 in the bank at the end of the year And we've got a million dollars worth of stuff to buy. So We're I think borrowing is going to be a regular occurrence I don't think we're ever going to be in a position where we can do everything that we need to do without borrowing and In response to that bill, it's a sound business practice to do that. You know, I know Chris, I know you you don't like the idea of borrowing, but I I'd rather see a little less on the tax rate Because people are going to start, you know, our taxes are getting higher and higher in the education, you know It always blame the blame your town as much as they'll blame the education system, but you know, because we're just there and I think if we could moderate that Impact, I think that's going to help in the borrowings just a necessary evil. It's just sound business practice Most businesses will do that They'll build a proposed borrowing Built in a surplus, you know, if we were actually trying to do apples for apples I think we'd be closer to somewhere in the 10 cent range right if we didn't borrow the 400 am I doing that? Correct. Say that again. I'm sorry. I guess I'm trying to fully If we went into this and we wanted to do exactly what you proposed under the three cent Increase and the borrowing over the four hundred thousand. That's four three ninety three, right? What's the equivalent tax rate that represents if we just raise taxes to it? It's isn't it more like Really, we're building up a surplus, right? So seven seven cents. Yeah, it's up there You'll be 393 in borrowing plus 229 348 So that's six hundred and twenty two and if you divide that by seventy six seven hundred or sixty six or whatever it is So it's about eight cents So that's where like we have to start talking apples to apples because the scenario is three cents borrow 400 or eight cents or we're deciding not to put as much into the CIP but remember the eight cents or the Three cents and borrowing four hundred leaves us to sixty eight at the end. No, I know that yeah I mean so then the question is could you do three cents and borrow less? Yeah, I mean Right, I know that I know that I know that but I'm just like I feel like we're being presented with Don't borrow put this put four cents or five cents at it and end up in the same spot, but it's not We're not gonna end up with what we're talking about in the scenario that we borrow four hundred and raise taxes three To get so we could not borrow. I don't think three cents is enough. I think we'd have to go to five cents Five cents gets you to zero, right? I know yeah, I know that Yeah, I mean my my concern is that you actually are because that money comes available next year because It's an increase in the tax rate. It's a one-time expense. Yeah, but you got to look at the debt service payments only You know, whatever the four hundred thousand is going to be amortized over the length of the loan so Your you're using that money now and you have the ability to use other money later It's it's a different way of doing it and yes, there's an interest component to it But I don't think the way you're looking at it is necessarily Correct right and remember we talked about this last week when the CIP fund was established The voters authorized a bond. I think it was a ten-year bond and borrowed six hundred and fifty thousand dollars and put it in the bank And used a little of it that first year to buy some things but they were willing back then when the interest rate was significantly higher than it is now to borrow six hundred and fifty thousand dollars and put that money aside and Use it and then add to it so You know, it's been a while since we've had the money in the bank and taking Kind of the cue from Eucharist about what you were saying to the library commissioners about their Trust fund, you know, taking it out of the trust putting it in there and Ending the year with a surplus so that next year they would have it You know, I know it's not quite the same thing when you're borrowing money but if you borrow the money now and You know as we've talked about many times It's unlikely the interest rates are going to be lower than they are now ever they're only going to go up So you might get the advantage of borrowing now And that's two hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars that you don't have to borrow next year or the year after at a higher interest rate so you know, so It's it's all of your choice And and we have to make a decision pretty soon here but I think that You know, there's I've said it many times, you know, there's there's people that are going to be here and paying taxes in 2020 And for a variety of reasons will never be here again, they're either going to move away or they're going to pass away and Do they want to pay? five or eight cents more in taxes this year and Then leave town when you're financing things that are going to be used for the next 15 years The case I mean not if you finance it over time to pay for things You you pay for what you use if you find if you if you build a bridge and it has a 30-year life and you Borrow a million dollars over 30 years and you're here five years You pay principal and interest based on your property value for five years and you leave and you don't use that bridge anymore. So That's that's from a public finance perspective, that's the best way to To apportion costs you got a factor in though that it costs a little bit more For the person who's lived here all 20 years to do it that way because they pay interest as opposed to Paying it all up front But if they pay it all up front then they have less money in their pocket now that they could have earned interest on for the Next 20 years, so but unfortunately the the downside to All of this and there's no getting away from it Similar scenario was when we voted voted to Bond for this building. We had two options of 20 20 year or 30 year and the board made the decision to go with 20 year Bill suggested we go for 30 years But the reason the board Went with 20 years. Our concern was that At the end of 20 years They're like any Infrastructure issue you start to have to put money into the so you're really not You're saving yourself something, but you're not you know, it's unfortunately it did things deteriorate Even on bridge projects same type of scenario before the bridge is Replaced the next time you've already had to put money into temporary sixes on this scenario I didn't push the envelope. I didn't borrow 250,000 we borrowed 902,000 and we didn't pay it off the fire trucks over 20 years. It's on a 15 year schedule now just for those reasons so I've tried to take into consideration the Philosophy that you have and it's it's you know, you can't argue with it It's reasonable. We know that there's going to be maintenance and repairs and you know, you can finance something over You know, there's there's people that you know, go out get 40 year mortgages and you know, they're having to You know pay a quarter of their Property value and repairs before they get to their 40 years So, you know, I understand what you're saying and I've tried to reflect that in in these numbers and kind of split the The difference and have you know, so two cent three cent tax rate and some borrowing is kind of where Where I Yeah, it's aggressive for sure take to the voters I'd like to thank you for this Illustration, this is very helpful, but I think I'm leaning. I think I'm leaning towards Somewhere around a four I less borrowing, you know, I think it shows I Think it shows fiscal responsibility to have a hybrid approach of You know using the using the easy out which is raising the tax rate which you know, hey, I'm a taxpayer too I don't want to do that either but Also showing that we are leveraging what we have you know and Doing some borrowing and doing some asking I Think it shows fiscal responsibility on our part and I think I Think four is probably the Four sets. Yeah And what's the borrow number? I was thinking if we did four cents We did like 250,000 and borrowing which is a little less than I think the three seven three ninety-three. It's a round round number 393 minus 77 Nevermind, that's quite a bit less 77,000 so basically Point you could do 300,000 four cents and 300,000 I guess the one thing that I'm anticipating potentially from taxpayers is during town meeting You know a lot of times they're single things Perry Hill Building this and it's like and this is a this is a pot of stuff for 300,000 I could see There could be some just Discussion around that of wanting. I know it's just a different way to present I don't know if we've done that before we take in debt for a handful of projects and Presented it as one so might not be that foreign I just since I've been on the board it typically tends to be like a thing a thing a thing right fire truck Yeah, I mean I'd be in support of four cents 300 I think to Chris's point I Think and and I think the point that more than one of you have made is that At some point we have to be responsible make sure we're collecting enough on a yearly basis to cover what we're spending I Think additionally we have to consider debt As a useful tool to spread out large expenses, and I think we were doing that So I would support four cents and a $300,000 borrow it's kind of what I think I would support Which is basically the three cents four hundred. It's just Raising it up one more cent Which means next year we would be Hopefully have that built into the budget so knowingly Asking a question and I know it can complicate things a little bit The law allows you When you set the amount of taxes that you're going to raise the law allows you to either set a dollar amount or a tax rate So when you're saying three cents right now what I'm going to do unless you say otherwise is Multiply three cents by the grand list with a 1% increase on it So that is the seven million six hundred thousand dollar grand list and That will raise Four cents times that will raise whatever amount that it raises and then We'll get that authority at town meeting for that dollar amount And then in July when we set the tax rate If the tax if the grant list goes up a half a percent instead of 1% it becomes 4.2 cents Or if it goes up 1.3 cent 1.3 percent as opposed to 1% then the tax rate is you know 3.87 Percent cents to get to the same number One year after the flood we actually told the Asked the voters to set the tax rate that they wanted as opposed to a dollar amount and Because we were fearful the grand list What would be would be too it was too Volatile in terms that we're going to end up So We set that number and said if we're lucky it will generate more than we need this year and That way we'll you know kind of build up our reserves We don't have to decide that now, but I just want you to know I'm going to translate your four cents Into a dollar amount and then when we get to the town meeting we can decide whether we want to say four cents or if we want to say $300,000 Maybe I'm a dissenter, but I still like the three cents and borrowing 393. I just Believe in we're seeing higher and higher taxes and that's all I hear is people talking about higher and higher and I Don't think it's a bad thing to borrow I know some of you may but I don't I don't think it's going to hurt our town by borrowing that that kind of money I think is a smart thing to do to keep Well, I can tell you from my eight years of being on the board And watching what's happened in the town being involved in A large part of the major changes since Irene It's knowing having a pretty good grasp on what we're faced with here in the next few years We're going to be up to our neck and borrowing here You know in the not too distant future, so I guess that's Reason I'm trying to Put that off as much as possible At this point because I know it's inevitable We'll be back here at the table next year I'll be looking at having to borrow again and Subsequent years after that, you know, well if you have a good fiscal year, you could pay down and accelerate Eliminate some of that. I would support the four four percent, but I So we got two at four I think I Wanted three and then and then the Responsibility falls on you Jane. I think it's important to mention the borrowing number along with the scent As you decide Well, I guess the three cent was 393 200 and the four cent was 300 so you're looking to borrow An additional 93,000 basically for however many years Doesn't make sense to me, but Three cents and 393 and four cents and 300 it's just like a lot of people nowadays, you know, I'm Old-school. I don't believe in borrowing for a car for more than like four years, but people are borrowing today eight years on I know it's not good practice, but I don't think in terms of the amount of our budget No, I would hope that within whatever we borrow like Bill said he can Look and see how much we can borrow from ourselves there. So the interest is going back into our Yeah, I like I like that scenario eaten up by borrowing from ourselves. So it's really not hurting us well, I'm a little optimistic to that that grand list will be Pretty decent this year based on what I've seen going on here and In this last year and even now here in the village, I think We'll see a substantial uptick. So I'm hoping that that can if we set a four cent tax rate and borrow 300 I'm optimistic to see that knock that four cents knocked back It's a gamble. Are you saying that's a standable growth a grand list is a good thing and maybe Just it's just a slower death. That's all it's just a slower death Giving you some time Jane and All right, I can support the four percent 4 cent increase 300,000. All right. I think the plane has landed You know, I'm gonna say one thing that we talked about a long time ago that the board might consider in the future Is I know we'd have to change our charter, but the idea of a local options tax. I believe it's called You know, I just think you know, we have a Lot of needs and as you say with the bar, he's not going to go away I think it's good that we're stepping up on pavement Which is underfunded for a number of years so We got police needs that's an expense and we're lucky to have the deal that we have with the state police, but That's a that's a big chunk of change and I don't know. It seems like it might be worth Investigating or getting the charter change so that when and if you want to do that you'd be ready to do it option It's like a town like Waterbury that is a crossroads for so many people I think it might be something to explore We know we've had a little bit of that discussion in the past Jane and I agree that a conversation Might be might be justifiable And as I said before if I'm still on the board, I'd like to see Major players in that conversation being the business owners come to the table Because that's who Basically is going to impact the most and without their blessing it'd be tough to Try to implement something like that, but I but I think that you know Right now in the next couple of years. We're trying to Waller our way through this Reconstruction project and we need to let the dust settle on that first and and see pops out of the dust Right, it's business is going. It's tough. I mean, I I know that More and more towns are going down that route In a sense, it's you know, it's lowering one tax by raising another And yes, maybe some more people who don't live here Pay the tax and you can argue whether they know about it or not. I mean you know, I Shop and go to restaurants and towns that have local option taxes And I don't make a decision whether I'm going to go to Stowe or Williston Based on that. I just go where I feel like going and the bill comes and you pay it, but It is a little bit challenging when you know, you're out there with your economic development people and you're recruiting people like Darn tough socks to come into town and and then you're going to slap a 1% tax on their sales. Maybe and You know, that's that's a challenge and whether it would apply there or not because It's wholesale, but I know that you know when we did the calculation back in 2011 Be careful what you ask for because we did a whole study on on On Local option tax and we were just about ready to make some decision about whether we're going to go forward or not And and then you know, there was eight feet of water on Main Street So we didn't we didn't do it. Well, it just seems like it might be something in the future And and you know, so anyway, it's it's I agree It's an interesting comment and let the dust settle for the Main Street project because I know that's taken it Not easy for some of the merchants on Main Street. Yeah, and a quick comment that I've made before I think if you're gonna present that the business owners presented as paying for things that maybe are already in the budget that maybe help support their Their businesses and yes, police are but I I think you have to be careful of saying paying for municipal services to Collecting, you know taxes from someone like my customers. It's a little harder to sell. I think it would if you look throughout the budget I'm sure you could find things. It would be maybe a little bit more Approachable to warrant maybe that conversation with the business owners and get their support. I think that's a cue Do you are you looking for motion? Yeah, there needs to be a motion and I think what what motion you could do is well Before we make a final motion that I want to talk a little bit about the general operating budget for a minute and I contemplated going into executive session to talk about this but it's only the TV that's here and It's nothing that I'm trying to hide No, no Because unless there's technical difficulties in it, but no turning it off is not a good idea I Raised this issue back last spring and I'm going to bring it up again now In the in the budget In the general fund I have municipal car and I got forty two hundred dollars proposed there And then there's vehicle maintenance at fifteen hundred And then there's gas at six hundred and sixty dollars And so that's what fifty two fifty seven About six thousand dollars and and frankly that won't do it so the the car that I drive now 2009 Toyota Camry Hybrid and I Never got around to You know taking up max idea was well, you know Let's just lease a vehicle for the next three years You might retire by that time and then the next town manager won't have a car and To deal with and and you get to negotiate with whoever that person is for the full Compensation package I think I said eight year lease So So a couple things have happened since then one we've continued to put a little bit of money into the car to We had Kathleen day and Duncan McDougal and others come in and talk about this You know do everything possible to make sure that you address climate change issues and three The the car that I'm driving now can't be inspected Our own highway mechanic would not inspect it because the frame is rusted out It's only ten years old. So this speaks to Chris's salt issue, right? So it's got about 85,000 miles on it. Everything else about the car is great except the undercarriage is is just Irreplaceable or irreparable Without spending a lot of money. I thought that I went to a local mechanic not the town mechanic and I said, you know We're a little busy right now Can you inspect the car and I didn't say anything about the issues and when I went back the other afternoon to pick it up I saw the old sticker would still on there and I said must be a problem and he said yeah He said I'm not putting an infection sticker on that so We need a new vehicle so taking a cue from the climate change folks I Did a little research because the day after they were here Day after they were here That Duncan the day after they were here Duncan McDougal sent me Link and said here the hybrid Electric and plug-in electric cars that you can buy and I didn't necessarily have the conversation with them about I don't want it to say the town will do everything it can do because I was thinking about the Dump truck that was a you know plug-in dump truck that was going to cost a half a million dollars But my my thinking is that people will probably Push towards getting something Along those lines the the Camry that I have now is a hybrid, but it's not a plug-in so I've looked You know not going to Present a BMW even though that's one that has very high rating, but you know the Toyota Prius the Camry does have Still does have a hybrid. I don't think it's a plug-in. I think it's the same kind that I have now Subaru Crosstrek Kia Optima so for They range in prices from 27 550 for the Toyota Prius to 35,200 or 34,900 for the Subaru Crosstrek The Crosstrek doesn't offer a lease So if you take $35,000 and divide that or 30 yeah 35 divided by five years It's $7,000 a year plus Maintenance and gas and all that The ones that you can lease they're requiring a minimum the lowest one was a $2,500 down payment and $290 a month so in the first year alone That's about $6,000 and then you've got the gas and stuff on top of that What I would propose and what I would prefer frankly is if you would adjust my pay give me seven thousand seventy five hundred dollars more and Get out of and you know, it's You change a couple lines. We don't have to buy any more gas. We don't have to do any more vehicle maintenance We don't have to have Either a car payment or a lease payment or a or you know go out and borrow thirty five thousand dollars Pay me seventy five hundred dollars a year And let me take care of my own car and what I would suggest to you is while It would be all salary what I would do going forward is Divide my salary and such that the salary that I'm making now is my base and whatever Inflationary increases or performance increases that you would give in the future would be applied to the base and the seven thousand dollars would just stay $7,000 or seventy five hundred dollars And you wouldn't add the inflation to that base going forward so My proposal is to to change the budget a little bit It doesn't affect the amount of money that's in the budget this year. It's just that you pay it to me versus Paying a lease so you wouldn't have a reimbursement for like my You know It's one of the reasons Mike that I really feel that the town manager here in Waterbury Doesn't really need a vehicle anymore when I first came here I spent a lot of time going out on the road checking with bubby wild or Howard Ripley the water plant the sewer plant Mostly now I drive it from home to here and then home again, so it's it's commuting which you know I paid taxes on the value of my personal use of the car and it's It's mostly personal use now Any of the in-town stuff that I do I wouldn't charge You know if I had my own car and I had to drive up to Greg Hill to look at a project or to the water plant or to the Sewer plant I wouldn't charge mileage for for that If I have to go to a meeting white with a junction, you know I might ask for the 55 cents a mile, but those those are a few times a year basically so for me I think it on a personal level It makes it easier for me in terms of record-keeping and everything else And it really isn't going to change anything as far as the budget is concerned. Yeah, the problem You know I I like the idea gives us some flexibility You know when you do retire, you know that we'd have the option to do something else with the new town manager You know depending upon what he wanted to do with his compensation I told Chris this morning. I said, you know the reason I have a car is because when I came here, you know We talked about salary and benefits and everything else and then Ed Steele said oh by the way We have a car for you too that you can use for your personal use. So, you know, that's it. Okay, it's there. It's great Okay, great. I'll take it, but It hasn't been offered. If it if it if it if you didn't have it I wouldn't have you know I was getting My previous job I was getting an allowance of you know, whatever $30 a month or something like that For a car, but but now it's been part of my compensation package for 32 years So I'm not just going to give it up, you know Maybe the next time the next town manager may we just do it with this all together, you know, just child Well, that's what this is that this that this does that this is convert Somebody drives to a white rejunction they would charge mileage and but the only thing Whoever the next town manager is going to be is going to look at that 7500 dollar line item I'm sure he's going to see that and what's it? It's a one-time deal No, it's not it's just going to be I would just say It's going to be Right yeah, but that person's going to look at your salary being X number of dollars with that 75 but they would they would think we're gonna deal they would look at My salary and oh by the way you get the car I mean, you know, it's it's Yeah, I mean, that's not a benefit we would have to offer And and you're going to negotiate with whomever it is next whenever it is And you're going to negotiate and you're going to pay whatever you end up, right? You know you might pay him 40,000 dollars more than you're paying me Didn't a similar note didn't the state restructure their pension plans with with new people coming on board or is it still? They did a bunch of years ago, but so I heard you need a motion so I think that you can you can make a motion to To to you know To change my compensation by replacing the car benefit with pay and You choose the number. I mean the the car that I have now the with the down payment and and the monthly payment Would be seven thousand four hundred and forty six dollars in the first year and then the second year, you know It'd be lower than that so Seven thousand I think is a reasonable number We also pay insurance Yeah, yes. Yeah, you pay gas insurance all the maintenance It reeks. Yeah, I mean I think we knew For a while that that car was gonna go anyways. I think this is This is a smart move And I think it's a fair move I would be in support of the seven thousand dollars a year increase to bills compensation and removing The car as his as a benefit For him and adjust the P&L accordingly I'll make a motion to do that Just the P&L what's that a profit and loss statement to not have it in the automobile, but put it in your compensation instead Okay, the budget, okay the budget. Sorry work at P&L based upon dunking in Miss Dave's thing you're probably gonna have to buy an electric car I Have it. I have a okay. Did we seconded it? I hadn't heard second I I've been shopping for a car and Five miles free or electric it's not free They've increased that so it's a hybrid but the first 25 miles So you might look into that because the rebate ends next week No motions been made and seconded to remove the vehicle option managers compensation package and Replace it with a seven thousand dollar additional increase in his Salary all those in favor, please say hi. Hi. Hi Okay, so So now that that's taken care of I think what your motion should be now is That you direct the manager to Adjust The capital budgets because I'll make that one change in terms of the municipal vehicle in the general budgets You've already You know the library budget we talked about the highway budget last week. I did you know there was a little bit of posting of expenses and a little bit of revenue posting that came in between last Monday and and This weekend I did go into the highway budget and the general fund budget and Paired that down a little bit because the The expenses that came in in the last week would have made the tax rate be a little higher than 51 cents So I still have the three operating budgets at 51 cents And there won't be any post-bacs now So your motion now should be to direct me to make changes to the operating budgets and the CIP budgets to Maintain a 51 cent tax rate adding four cents and borrowing $300,000 So somebody wants to make that Caroline I can fix the motion tomorrow My mic's out of juice here, so Mike made the motion I second That seconds it Is there any further discussion? Seeing none from the board all those who wish to approve please say aye. Aye. Aye Big sigh Thank you, well, thank you all for your work. Yeah, let's hope the taxpayers Stays on for a couple seconds Motion to approve the warning Sorry, we need a motion to approve Town meeting morning town meeting morning for the meeting on Tuesday March 3rd March 3rd 2020 so Carl ahead sent that out Yeah, I'm gonna say I Apparently didn't get to my computer So the only thing we're gonna do is switch around articles 7 and 8 so we do the CIP in the bar wing first and then the budget after that So a motion to approve the warning with the subsequent changes of switching seven and eight around That's pretty there's straightforward. There's there's nothing controversial last year. We had You know shall we Authorize 30 whatever thousand for wassy and we have the tax stabilization fund formula We took those out there's no reason for those to be on there So it's a pretty straightforward warning. There's no controversial issues 11 is the climate change article article It isn't appropriate to add on the special. I know I've talked about this on the special articles To require that People requesting money Have it designated where it doesn't have to be a staff member, but a designated Person at the meeting Just so before we go any further. Can I get a second on the motion, please? Who made who made the motion Mike did? Just need a second. I suck. I'm gonna talk about it. Okay. Thanks So do you know what? His question was Um just revises that set it kind of just adds a little thing for future, you know, it's not for this town meeting but For future town meetings that at least someone's there who could talk, you know Cuz sometimes people they say oh, yeah, they do good work and stuff like that you know Most of the groups can do that I Think I like having some there that can answer in case anyone wonders what it is my question is is it's like some Dollar ones like the hundreds the 250s Harder to I don't know. Maybe it's not but Yeah, I think our original purpose for combining them all in it. I'm just giving you a little background. It was to Cut back on the length of time I think Yeah, I guess I would ask rather than the board making that decision Is it worth asking the voters and can we ask the voters? Yeah, that's you can't it's tough to do You know, you've aggregated a bunch of them so you read the motion once and you know, ten of them get Approved that, you know, I had an interesting conversation with Chuck Cloteka a couple of months ago because The Greeter grant so it's a $8,000 project and They're gonna get a grant they hope of $2,500 so they got to come up. They do fundraising for the rest of it So he originally told Carla that they were going to come in and try to get an appropriation from the town And I kind of gave my hard time about it I kind of gave him a hard time about it and then you know Several weeks ago. I saw him and he said ah It's just too much work to try to get the signatures So They didn't do it and I said, you know, I get frustrated because we do have one new Asker this year. There's somebody else asking for what $2,500? the maker space, you know the place over on did well lane that It's an art place and now they're asking for $2,500 from the from the town to support that And I Don't think you can do it this year, but I Think a better way to do it would be to have the select board and maybe a committee decide How much are we willing to give away and if it's $50,000 or $75,000 and then the point of committee and have people ask that committee and make their case and We've kind of said this is how much money we have now You can't prevent people from getting petitions. They can override it, but it might be a better way to To do that in the future is to get people Somebody gets up at town meeting and just because they're a representative you don't even know what questions they ask them You know if you if you had a set budget and then people had to come in and ask and make a case for it That they should get the money. So My Time suggesting like kind of like a current process in a sense But more or less see my question was more you get these groups and I know we have that Big pecking order and then someone looks at their town report and no one's there from that No, boo about except someone like, you know, David loose will go and say, oh, yeah They're a great organization You know, it'd be nice to have someone who knows something about the organization and can ask But if the public really felt that strongly about it, they would say no when David loose or Alex Colley gets up and they never feels he has to make a motion for every single one that's there Speaking of that. I want full disclosure here on the Revenue page of the budget. I don't know if you all have it with you or not There's a line item It says it's up in the under other governments and it's highlighted pilot not for profits And it was $1,850 budgeted last year and there was $2,002 and 26 cents that came in you see that line that I'm looking at everybody got it and There's zero proposed this year so that's the ice center and I Just thought of it now because we're thinking about these special articles The ice center down there So when they built the building and the village got involved in water and sewer allocations and this and that in the town, you know Worked and so on and so forth The select board and the village trustees Entered an agreement with them signed a contract and said basically if you're considered tax exempt, you're still going to pay the local tax the municipal tax and They went back and forth and there were some years that they were exempt from the education tax some years that they weren't exempt from anything Now the legislature has exempted them from taxation altogether, but because they have this 25-year-old contract or whatever however many years they've been there now with us They paid us $2,000 last year. It's based on value of the property times the 51 cent tax rate is $2,000 And I'm looking at these All these organizations that are asking for special articles and this maker space now is asking for $2,500 Organizations out of Montpelier and all these different places and we're giving them money and I think that in terms of local business the ice center brings a lot of business into this community and I think that Maybe it's time from my perspective that rather than go out of our way to to Build them a couple thousand dollars to just instead of having them come and ask for a You know because this happened with the with the Grange before they went out of the business the Grange came to us and said Would like to ask for money, you know, they wanted a tax exemption and I said, you know, that's a really Difficult process to go through to get a tax exemption. Why don't you just ask a special article that will cover your tax payment? But for me I Think the community gets a lot more out of the ice center than we get out of Going out of our way to make a special tax bill for them since they're a tax exempt organization They don't really cost us anything. Yeah, we plow the road. That's really what we do down there And the road is used for a lot more than just the ice center. We we've got all kinds of Construction material down there that we need to go get so are we still? Then you said plow the road. Are we still responsible for paving it and all that as well? Well, it is it is our road and it's paved I guess that was when we did the when we when Woody and Alec and I talked about the paving You know analysis I asked a question, you know, maybe When that road is so out of shape and it needs something done Maybe we should do with that what we did with Little River Road just grind it up and make it gravel again Doesn't have to be paved The only reason it's paved is because One year Bobby came to the select ward and said, you know, the only reason I got to bring a grader down here into the village is to pave that road, I mean to grade that road But Asphalt costs a lot more than it did back then so my feeling is we're just When the time comes just grind it out and put stay mad on it and be done with it sounds good to me So if you're okay with Not charging them the payment move taxes You don't have to do anything because the budget that you've Approved a minute ago right had that in there But I don't want to just kind of slide it by with no telling you what my thinking and it's not us that Probably you're not sliding it by us because I saw it there prior to this meeting anyway, but It may be picked up by a voter and who knows what conversation will ensue after that so you can we can certainly leave it the way it is and See what happens. Let the voters deal with it. Yep. You also had kind of a blank on that parking Force yeah, I highlighted that a couple weeks ago just to say that's something that some people are asking for But given where we are right now Yeah, it's like like you told me last week. Yeah, I said let all the people who complain about it the whole year So with that being said, are we all set bill you have your signature page back Okay, yeah, we're all done. Okay Wants to be the first emotion to adjourn To write Thank you Second that I sometimes want to get on but I said I'm just gonna get myself in trouble I try as best I can to stay off, but every once in a while Pull me back in so that I get a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to adjourn All those in favor