 Well, it's still the ballot 2023. I am Mary-Anna Cohn. And my name is Nyam Ghul Aghaji. Yes, and we're being joined right now by Dr. Ndubisi Mwokolo. He's an election consultant, but of course he is the chief executive of Next Tier SPD, and we'll be talking about violence during, after the elections. Dr. Mwokolo, it's so good to have you join us. Good evening. Thank you, Mary-Anna. We have had conversations leading up to this election, and of course, in a few hours, Nigerians will be lining up at their different polling units, getting set for the elections. This is one of the most talked about elections ever in Nigeria, almost as if we're back during the June 12th situation, almost that. But then of course, we cannot talk about the elections without looking at issues of violence. I'll give you a head start. As at today, a video has surfaced online of a certain party chieftain in River State whose house, the roof of his house was destroyed by dynamites. Now, thank goodness, he did have CCTV cameras and they caught these men who brought the dynamites to their house. Unfortunately for these men, and they did not necessarily have their way because it looks like they had gotten feelers that they might be attacked. This is one out of many other situations that we're seeing across the country. I wonder that in 2023, why are we still dealing with this stone age kind of violence and attacks before, sometimes during, and even after elections? I think for some of us who are students of political science or rather who are students of the state, the Nigerian state is high. So our politics is a zero song game. We're not exceed all. So it will continue to be this way until we reform our politics will make getting into the state uninteresting, uninteresting, at least economically uninteresting, until our politics become less of pre-bendalism and less of new patrimonialism. What do I mean here? I mean the situation where you don't serve because of what you're going to get, what your family are going to get, what your friends are going to get. If politics becomes service to the people, you will see a lot of them will be there. So situation where people are professional politicians, they don't do something else. They want to continue to be in the state, from the state. So for instance, why would somebody who is running for to be a member of House of Rep is spending almost 500 million Naira to be elected? How much are you going to make there? So you see because of what they're going to get there, they are ready to kill everyone, do whatever they need to do to be elected. So for me, until we change our politics in such a way that it becomes less financially attractive, this will come to rest. Because if you look in developed climate, it's kind of that someone like Barack Obama, he never made money when he was president of America. He made money after he left office and that's the way it should be. If you leave office, you use your experience, you write books, you do tours, we do other things that will give you money. Not when you are serving the people, you are acquiring all the money in the world because you're serving. In that case, it means that everybody wants to be there. Now let's take a critical look at what is happening. If you look at the country that we borrowed the presidential system of government from, you see legislators, I mean in this case, senators and members of the U.S. House of Representatives who have stayed in the House for 20, 30 years, the more you stay in the House, the more experience you become. And if you're doing well, you're not likely to be there as much as you can because the people will continue to elect you because of the work you're doing, because of how you're not improving the life of your constituents, but the life of average Americans because of the policies you made. You see most American legislators, someone who is a committee chairman, he may have been in that committee for over two decades. And he grows like what they talk about the wine. They say the wine gets better as it becomes colder. So that's how quality should be. But here, someone is in the House of Representatives, people want to kick him out because when he got there, he didn't even have a car. After four years, he has built seven mansions and 20 cars. So it means everybody wants to get in there. So that's why people continue to kill because they want to be elected into the state. I just do not know. We are talking violence though, but since you are a student of politics, I'd like to just ask you this. Do you think our political space will ever get to that point that you're thinking? It sounds El Dorado to me that we will not have the incentives to go there and make money and all that. I mean, someone like the accountant general of the federation is not a politician, but how much was found on him? We see some people who are like cashiers that are telling us that monkeys stole money, snakes stole money. Is this a problem of the politician or the average Nigerian? Because if we're trying to make the politicians become better or think less about what they can amass, what about the people themselves? So where do we start for this reformation to take place in Niger? So I think we could, if we want to look at the question you asked, we have to look at it from two different dimensions. First, so when we talk about the state being the way it is, is that attractive? We are talking about the state as in, well, it's called power being very attractive. Everybody wants to get in there. On the other side, when you look at an average civil servant stealing another, that's corruption. So it does not mean that the other one is not corruption. Now, remember, for instance, a civil servant, an average civil servant, an average lecturer is not paid the same thing in terms of allowances that these guys who are politicians get. So George, from our councillors to the president, the paraphernalia of the office, what they get around it, we even make them, even if they don't directly steal, they will indirectly amass those wealth that you pay, you may not necessarily charge them to call for corruption. It's different from where someone has directly stolen and you're able to like, you know, say he did this. For instance, if someone who is a member of House of Rep. Representative or a senator or a member of House of Assembly are being given money by either the governor or rather are being given money by the executive past a bill and you're not able to trust it, how would you charge them to court? All you will know is that this guy who elected a member of House of Rep or a member of House of Assembly who didn't have a house, had only built seven houses. Now, it's not that it's impossible to investigate them. Instead, what you can investigate them, but here is impossible. But it's different from maybe an accountant who directly steals money or embezzles money that he has been asked to distribute or to work with. So you can see why the, you know, one has a way of being, you know, I don't want to say being acceptable, but the society look at it and try to overlook it in a way. But this other one, your activity could easily be known. I think that's the difference between the two. Just to buttress what the point that Janangul was trying to make, just as you said, it sounds like Eldorado, it's a bit of a mirage. Who are the people who are responsible for making sure that these offices and also as financially, you know, inviting as it is right now, I'm guessing members of the National Assembly, but these are the same people who would do whatever it takes to have themselves getting to those offices. So again, if we have a group of people who are self-centered, how easy would it be for them to cut off their nose despite their face? So this is very easy. Okay, let's even start from the one that is very simple. So let's, let's, let's look at members of, let's look at National, our National Assembly. And let's say we now have, I don't want to say, these, these Nigerians that are sent, we elect them by tomorrow. They get into the National Assembly and not say, okay, because we think we looked at the hours we've been, we work and we think it's no need having us being fully committed to this. This should be a work we can do partially without being paid, something like that. You know, or let's say we're able to like get a constitution that says monies that are being paid to members of the National Assembly as we're trying to, firstly, we're looking at costs of governance and we look at what they are being paid, and we decide to reduce it in such a way that they live like an average Nigerian. K places like Sweden, Denmark, you, you, you see that their politicians are like teachers are even paid more than them because these guys go there to sell. So in as much as it looks impossible in, or it looks difficult, but it's not impossible, we can get them, we can get in there, especially if people start voting, voting in such a way that they're in such a way that they're being directed by their conscience to do what is right. People get into moral analysis, okay, we think this set of people have failed us. We think this set of people will not fail us. We think this set of people, if we give them a chance, they'll be able to do what is right. They decide to vote for a set of certain people, you know, across party lines, and those people get in and decide to do what is right. They decide to say, okay, if we are giving bills to pass, we will pass the bills without taking money from the executive. People look at it as a Nigerian thing, but most times, you know, to correct some, to correct an impression could start from the dashing. To remember politicians, most times we look upon them, most people look upon them to lead the way. So my thinking is that if we get in sets of people who are committed to a better Nigeria and they decide to say, we do the right thing, we're not going to take money to pass bills. We're not going to take consistency projects and not deliver. And for race even start, what is consistency project? Okay, doctor. Should they be the one doing it or the executive should be the one doing it? What they can do is to start projects to their, to their consistency. They are not supposed to be the ones to execute it. So these are common things that people who have the love for their country and aim to start doing it. I think if we start doing those things, we might start putting things right. If politicians start putting things in something where they start delivering, it's easier to, for this thing to start circulating down to the bureaucracy and we'll start getting things right. Okay. Dr. Ndubisi Wokolo, we'd like to thank you. Everything starts from a good decision. Yes. And bottom line is saying the choice is ours. If we want to change it, then we can change it. Dr. Ndubisi Wokolo is of next tier SP. Thank you so much for speaking with us and good luck tomorrow as you go out to cast your votes. I know that you're here in the country just to cast your votes. Yeah, I'm a domestic observer, so I'll be in the field monitoring the election. Great. Thank you so much for speaking with us tonight. All right. Well, we have to go. Yeah. A lot of things to talk about tomorrow. I'm excited. I don't know about you. I'm excited to see how what the changes will be tomorrow if I think it's going to show up early to their duty post and if we're going to see really accreditation and voting start, indeed at 8.30 a.m. tomorrow. 1993 was the first time I voted and I was as excited as I am now or even I'm more excited now because I know what is at stake more than I did in 1993. I hope that tomorrow will be peaceful enough for everybody that goes out. Go cast your vote tomorrow. Find out where your polling unit is. It's not too late. Go on INEX website and use your PVC to find out where you're voting tomorrow because you know what, that vote is your power and it's your right to make sure that you cash it in. I'm Mary Anna Cohn. Tomorrow the studio opens at 7 o'clock and we'll be there. My name is Nyam Gul Agadje. Of course I'll be joining you later on on the show. It's going to be a very interesting one. 24 hours of non-stop broadcasting and bringing you up to speed with Nigeria's general elections. See you and good night. Have a great night. I don't know if a lot of us are going to see you tonight in anticipation. Good night.