 Good afternoon everyone this is the House Agriculture and Forestry Committee on Representative Caroline Partridge it is April 27 2021 and is just a couple minutes before 2pm. And we are taking up for discussion kind of an ongoing discussion about agricultural housing. And as a result of some of the testimony we took last week. We had some additional questions. We're expecting to be joined by Nick Richardson from the Vermont Land Trust. And, but he has limited time so I think what we're going to do is kick this off with with Deputy Secretary Allison Eastman and General Counsel for the Agency of Ag food and markets Steve Collier. Allison, we, one of the things we were talking about last week was the quality of housing for age to a well workers in general, but age to a workers. And we also actually had some a little bit of curiosity we know that you were working on what I thought was a pretty brilliant idea of trying to get workers from Puerto Rico. And maybe you could give us a little bit of an update on that as well. We heard mixed testimony about whether some of our undocumented workers working on dairy farms would want to be part of the h2a program. And, you know, question about whether they could I think a large number of those workers who we really appreciate I'm just going to say that I sure do. Come from Mexico. And is there any impediment for them to potentially be part of the program. But if you want to start off with a little bit about Ag housing. That would be fantastic. Thank you so for the record I'm Allison Eastman, Deputy Secretary of the Agency of Ag food and markets. And as the chair had referenced. I've had years of experience in age to a previous to coming to the agency. I will answer the question on Puerto Rico I put a lot of time and effort into assisting and recruiting from Puerto Rico, and much of the effort has led to non success. I will also say that recently, I was reached out probably five or six months ago by a dairy farmer who wished to recruit workers from South Africa. We're happy to report that one of those workers did arrive just over a week ago on to a dairy farm here in Vermont. So as you stated the majority of the workers in the h2a program do come from Jamaica, here to Vermont. That goes back to 1942 when h2a program started to be more widely used during World War, World War two. We had much of those that were operating our work in landscapes, fighting for our freedom, and therefore needed to recruit migrant labor. We had a treaty with the US islands that dated back to the 40s that treaty was in place until 2001 after 911. The treaty was important. The program ran with fluidity. The workers were not subject to having to get visas to come into the United States. Since then, more convoluted workers have to get visas go for interviews at the consulates and embassies. Some of the state, the majority of workers here in Vermont come from Jamaica, some from Mexico. And then as I stated there's various other countries as well, most recent from Africa. Is there any other questions that you want me to touch on or talking farm labor housing to do you want me to. Yeah, there was there was conversation about h2a housing as I recall. But as I recall, there were certain requirements for the h2a housing in terms of habitability. There's concern on the parts of some that the housing that's being provided to some of our undocumented workers is really dreadful. So just, if you could give us a little bit of a picture of what h2a is like and then any knowledge you have of, I mean I've heard of good situations and I've heard of bad situations and for the undocumented fellows or gal so if you have any knowledge of any of this that you can share that would be great. Sure. So as far as the h2a housing goes it is subject to housing inspections, which do occur prior to a labor certification being granted by US Department of Labor. Those housing certifications are subject to one of two housing inspections and I will preface this with saying I'm not an expert. This is the state workforce agent who conducts these housing inspections currently at Vermont Department of Labor, and Steve our general counsel is here with us today because we've been working on an MOU at the agency of ag with Department of Labor, and our hope is starting in May, we at the agency of agriculture will be conducting these housing inspections through that MOU with Department of Labor. The h2a housing inspections is conducted and that's basically depends on when the housing was constructed. So I believe that ETA, which stands for Employment Training Administration migrant housing inspections would be any housing that was built before April 3 of 1980. The first bill after that would be subject to the OSHA standards, and also I would say to that every everybody who is participating in the h2a program knows that we're subject to meeting the requirements under the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act. I think, you know, I've mentioned h2a is interesting because these employers know that John, can you John, could you mute please? Sorry about that. Yep, thanks. So these housing, they're subject to the inspections and they must pass 30 days prior to the labor certification so that means 30 days before their start date for the workers to arrive. And it's often referred to as bunk style housing. So you will hear that these workers live, there's common areas, there's their bunk sleeping areas, there has to be a certain square footage allowance in their sleeping areas. There's a certain number of bathroom, toiletries, showers per worker depending on whether it's ETA or OSHA standards. And then also, you know, these inspections do go as far as like debris or weeds or poisonous plants outside of the building, as well as testing the water supply. Each year the water supply is tested and must pass before the workers can come onsite. And in my private sector experience, we have had water that has not passed and UV treatments have had to be put in before workers arrive. So this, you know, they also have to have waste disposal so oftentimes you'll see trash and dumpster collections outside those sort of things but I believe the requirement the space requirements is 50 square foot per person in a single bed and at least 40 square feet per person if using bunk beds. They have a certain number of footage I believe it's seven feet for ceiling height. Again, don't quote me on any of these if you want the experts to come in that would be Department of Labor but they definitely look at the ceiling height. They also look at heat. If these workers are here during the colder months they have to maintain 68 degrees Fahrenheit for heat. I remember I just I made a list of myself just looking at what it has also if they include a kitchen that has utensils and all of their things that they need to prepare their meals free of charge as well. Food storage refrigeration. Again the refrigeration needs to at least maintain 45 degrees adequate lighting and ventilation. Food storage shelves. There's an awful lot that they look at and each year when they come you know you may just have to replace a shelf in the kitchen as these or put a screen door on the front that needs to be replaced but each year that's why the inspector goes there. To make sure that there's any maintenance that needs to be done that it's done prior to the workers arriving. All right. Steve is there anything you would like to add. Thank you and thank you so much for having us. Well first I live in an old drafty Victorian and my kids would appreciate that 68 degree role. Me too. I said here shivering most of the winter. It's all order in the south. I'm really I just came to try to answer any any questions that anyone might have I think as deputy secretary just said, we are planning on doing the h2a inspections in the new future will be working with with the Department of Labor on that they still have an important role, but we'll be conducting the inspections themselves mean obviously this is an important socially and economic issue for our farms to be viable. They need to be to be run well and to have to be competitive and we obviously want all of our workers are so essential to all of our success to have Santa's clean and safe housing so it's an important issue trying to find the right balance of financial viability and safe housing is always the question and getting enough resources to do that. The how the recent report that the HCB Commission I thought was very helpful and informative and can help guide the conversation as we move forward but obviously our agency has a real interest in ensuring that our farms are doing everything that they can to provide a good housing experience for all of our essential farm workers. Well thanks Steve, and I noticed that Nick Richardson is here so I want to turn to him but I'll call on Terry first Terry you have your hand up. I was just wondering, does the agency get any complaints on poor housing or, or if they do, who do they, who are, who's complaining to you guys. Is it the workers or farmers or passerbys or, or do they not complain. Well, and Allison may know more but I'm not aware that we get regular complaints I'm sure we've had some but we're not actually the entity that would handle those complaints as it exists right now so for h2a workers. Those complaints would go to the Department of Labor because that those workers are here through a United States labor program so so that's why that regulation exists there and Allison kind of touched on this before there's an sort of, I call it a hammer or you could also look at as an incentive through that program because those employers those farmers obviously want the workers to come. But before they can get the workers here there's an inspection of that housing before they arrive. So there's a nice mechanism for for the Department of Labor to be able to ensure that the housing is fit before folks come. So that's a there's a little bit of a tool there to be able to address that housing more proactively other types of housing regulations would could fall to municipalities or that could fall to the Department of Public Safety depending on where you for fire safety, for example, that would fall to the Department of Public Safety so we don't have a specific regulatory role for farm housing we obviously have an interest in it. But at the moment the housing standards themselves fall within other entities although as as mentioned we will be inspecting h2a housing in the near future are the Mexican workers on the dairy farms is that considered h2a or is the is this the Jamaican workers. So, I would say that we do have some workers that are on dairy farms under the h2a program so we can specifically state that all workers are or are not on the h2a program through dairy. I know of at least two farms in Vermont that are dairy that do access the h2a program. Okay, good to know I just didn't realize that they ever were inspected like, like the Jamaican workers. I mean I know a lot about the Jamaican workers from living in short but I didn't realize that the dairy farms were inspected also. I think it's important to to note that the housing for the h2a program is very different than the housing for non h2a. So the h2a program the workers travel themselves they don't travel with family there's no children no spouse. So, oftentimes that's why it's referred to as bunk style housing multi workers living within one area one building with common areas. Whereas other migrant farm workers or us domestic workers when they have housing provided would be looking for a house, potentially for their family. The only housing complaints that I'm aware of that we've received at the agency or really they don't point to a particular employer they will say that the housing is substandard on a farm in, you know the northeast kingdom but we never get particulars and so recently Steve. And I exchanged some emails with Department of Labor to figure out like what could we put forward as far as housing complaints and and procedures for people to follow. Should they wish to report a complaint of that nature. That would be great. No go ahead Steve. Well I was just going to add to representative Norris this question that one of the I think one of the real challenges here is that with people who are undocumented. There's a real reticence to bring forward complaints to the government period no matter who the regulatory agency is, because they, they obviously are concerned about a risk of being reported to the federal government and and not that the state. I'm not saying the state would do that but they're just worried about coming forward period. So no matter who serves that role in terms of regulating there's a there's a difficulty in reaching those folks and because they they're making sometimes a cost benefit analysis and and sometimes it's not informed one and sometimes it's not but there is always some challenges I think in reaching people that aren't documented because of that kind of corollary concern about what the ramifications may be of any kind of report to any sort of governmental agency, whether those concerns are valid or not I think that they're real and are there. And I see your hand up but I know that Nick is under a time crunch and so what I'd like to do is turn to Nick, and ask those questions and then maybe you can hold your questions because I think we have Allison and Steve till 330 as we do Liz. Nick thanks so much for joining us. So talking about agricultural housing, or agriculture, housing for agricultural workers. One of the things that came up last week was the concept that we're trying to figure out ways that potentially better housing could be constructed for some of these farmers. And we know that frequently, if a if a farm is conserved, there are certain requirements restrictions put on them in terms of building you know any kind of development. And one of the reasons we invited Liz and got ceiling as well to just to talk about some of the I don't know if there are covenants or what, what, you know, agreements that, and, and wonder what it would take. So first of all, is it possible to do housing under current agreements or would it be possible to potentially change the change the agreement so that housing for ag workers could be included. Great. Thank you, Representative Partridge. It's great to be with you all, and I appreciate the chance to come in and testify. Thank you for the record and Nick Richardson the president CEO of the Vermont land trust, and we're here to offer some insight and perspective on that question and on the report in general that VHC be commissioned and was was just recently released. So I'll just say a couple of things at the top around the overall report and then focus in on your question. Because I took a short detour trip to South Windham over the weekend and stopped in at Bill and Betsy's house that I wasn't there long enough to come say hi but we did. We were there on a plate on Friday afternoon. So, I mean first of all I just want to say this report is an excellent report. I think it's comprehensive and it does a really good job of painting the picture of the issues around access to affordable housing and the impact that that has for farmers and for farm workers in Vermont is a really big deal. And we've seen over the course of the last few years that this question of housing and how can we affordably how is the people who work on and on our farms has really risen to become one of the most significant issues facing agriculture today. So it is a it's a core viability issue. I'm sure that that the folks at the agency agriculture and the deputy secretary Eastman would agree with me that these these challenges are being born by farmers by the communities around them, and that it's time to really think about what are some of the solutions that that we could put in place to address the affordable housing issues that are specific to agriculture and to farming. I think it's, you know, it's quite clear that Vermont has an affordable housing issue, and the ag landscape is not immune from that set of questions. So it's great that we're taking the time to focus on that. The, the specifics in the report around the conservation easements and the impact of conservation easements, I think are very important to raise, and I'm really glad that the question of how easements and current use and other restrictions impact the ability to develop housing are brought forward and contained in the report as something to be aware of and put some focus and attention to. I do think it's important to just offer a perspective on the option to purchase an agricultural value, and the role of conservation easements as it relates to farm labor housing, and the ability to build housing on farms. In the specifics and the details of those easements. In almost every case, there's a there's a right to build farm labor housing that's included on the agricultural easements that are done in Vermont. And that's been true for a long time it's actually now the requirement of the federal program, the ASAPL program that we use to fund a portion of those easements. But the, the access to the right to build housing that is for that is designated for farm labor exists on almost every agricultural easement in Vermont. There's a discretion, right, that the land trust and or the Vermont Housing Conservation Board and the ag agency have around where that housing gets built and the shape of it, but it's a provision that is in the easement. It's contemplated in the design that we want to create the opportunity for housing to be built consistent with the supporting the existing ag operations. Based on can it be done through an easement and is the easement a bearer I would say the easement has something to say about housing, but also creates a pathway for for creating housing on farms that's consistent with the purposes of housing farm labor. And we, it's not something that I'm sure that there are the additional complexities associated with doing that, doing the development of farm labor housing when you're talking about current use in particular, and maybe in terms of conservation as well. But it's not a barrier to getting that done. And so I just wanted to like clarify that. And the, the other point is related to the option to purchase that agricultural value. And that, believe it or not is even more complicated. The option to purchase that agricultural value is a really important tool for keeping farmland and and forest land and working farms affordable. And what it does is it pegs the value that creates the option to purchase at agricultural value for the Vermont land trust and for our partners at phcd and the agency of agriculture, essentially, encouraging the transaction of that land at its agricultural value as opposed to added inflated value, where a non farming landowner or person might come in and purchase that land and not build another house on it, but also keep farm on it either want to try and the intent of that opav is to keep farmland farming. One of the ways in which that can create challenges related to housing is when you invest in housing on land that has an option to purchase at agricultural value on it. The option to purchase at agricultural value only values that new construction at the value of the appraised value right at the value that it's worth in the market. And the problem that that can potentially create is if you've just constructed that housing, it's going to be more expensive to construct it in Vermont, then it's worth according to appraisal and that's a issue called negative equity is something that we face all across the sort of issues related to housing and to commercial construction here in Vermont that it costs more to build buildings in Vermont than they're initially worth according to appraisal. And that is a very, there's a very complicated set of factors behind that. One of them is that the costs of construction materials right now are sky high, I think everybody knows this when you go, you know, try and, you know, get a contractor to work on your house, or if you're trying to, you know, build a garage or just even trying to build a concrete, everything's a lot more expensive because of the disruptions and supply chains that have come about as a result of COVID. And the other challenges associated with getting construction done in this environment right now. So, it's, you know, and also I would say probably because there's more demand for construction services in Vermont is more people look to move here and buy houses here so there's a lot of factors that are pushing that negative equity issue. And, you know, I think it's a real challenge and concern I don't I don't think it's limited to opav restricted properties. But the opav kind of really shines a light on the challenge of that negative equity issue and I think, you know, certainly over the short term and individual cases, having an opav on a farm where you've just built new infrastructure new buildings can result in the impact of some of the equity and value in those buildings so it's an issue, something that we're taking a look at. We're working closely with partners like VHCB to think about how to address that. And in some cases, what we're trying to do is design new conservation easements going forward so they leave the house site out or, you know, a housing site of the envelope of the conservation easement and have it be part of the parcel but separate from the conservation, the conservation easement so the opav would not apply to, you know, a building envelope it's very, it's something that we're, you know, it's a I think it's a piece of learning and it's it's something that we're experimenting with carefully with partners. I think in a large part, because we're aware of the fact that in some cases, this negative equity issue can get created. But I don't think, I don't think that it is the, I don't think the opav is the driving issue, the driving force or factor behind the issue. I think the issue is it's very expensive to build houses in Vermont, and they don't end up being worth as much. Once you build them and the cost of the materials and the effort is right now and that's something we all kind of work work with and face here. That's, that's kind of my open thing I think, you know, we, we're, we can stay very committed to working on these issues we're helping to support the development of a significant amount of farm housing related to the Eau Claire project that folks may be familiar with, and we're working to do significant dense farmer develop farmer housing development, as we also can serve a significant amount of that land. Been working very closely with VHCB and with us and his team to have to think about how we designed for that, that need and try to address that that issue as a part of this larger conservation project and I'm excited to see other opportunities like that come along if we can identify where there's demand for farm labor housing in an area. We can be working with our partners on the housing side to put conservation and housing side by side, and I'm excited to do more of that in the years to come. I think I'll leave it there I'm happy to take any questions folks have. Great Nick thanks so much. Really appreciate it. John you had your hand up do you want to ask question now or will turn to Liz. Let's let Liz go and if anybody has questions specifically for Nick to I can go. Okay, great. All right. All right, so this is helpful so we're understanding that in any of these conservation easements you do have the right to build farm labor housing. So that's good news. The question is, is it ultimately worth it. Because it. Yeah, okay. It's what I think I think the question is, and the question is, is it worth it or, or really that there's there can be these instances where the cost of building is higher than the initial value of that housing to the agricultural value and that can create an issue for folks. Right so if you if you wanted to turn around and sell right if you've if you've bought it at agricultural value. Then you have to agree I would assume to sell it agricultural value. That's right. And that might not take into consideration the actual cost of building that housing. I would say like, it will probably like it would likely eventually catch up to it, but it would take some time for that to happen. So particularly in a situation, what you were saying where if you, if you, if you purchased an opav restricted property, you then built some housing on it that was farm labor housing consistent with the easement. And then for some reason, needed to or decided to sell that property within the first few years. And that would likely have, you know, be taking a hit on the financials, in part because of the opav being in place. Right. So it would only make sense to build that housing. If you planned on holding on to it for a while. Long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay, great. Right. Liz. Nick talked about the, the housing report that you all did and we heard some talk about it last week as well. And thank you for doing that. Is there anything you've heard some of the questions and some of the line of of thought. And so is there anything you want to add to this conversation. Yes, thank you so much. I'm Liz Gleason with BHCB's farm and forest viability program. And I can speak a little bit to some of my impressions from that report but I did want to specifically respond to two of the things that have come up. I wonder if this question around, you know, when does it make sense to build housing on opav farms. I think for many people it's, it's less of a question of how long will I be here and will it pay off. And more of a question of will a lender lend me the money that I need because the appraisals are conducted by lenders in these cases and, and it's really a, that's a big decision making point where a lot of people can get, you know, not be able to move forward because they can't access loans in order to build. And we know that generally agricultural businesses are low margin and have very fluctuating cash flow and so that combined with the appraisals in these cases can just make it a barrier to access alone. And then I wanted to go back to something at the beginning really quickly just to clarify the, how farm housing gets inspected. I think there's, there's three really distinct bucket areas that we're talking about here there's the fact that any housing that you're providing to workers is technically qualifies as rental housing and is therefore subject to Vermont's housing laws. We have a, you know, a system in place where those are inspected locally, and what we heard last week was, and what we know to be true is that generally there's not capacity to actually do those inspections. So the vast majority of on farm rental housing whether folks are paying rent or it's just included in their job are not inspected by anyone. Each to a has its own inspection program that's very focused just on those farms and those are generally but not always vegetable and produce farms because each to a is designed to be a seasonal program. And I don't know I think I definitely am not the expert here but there's probably about 80 to 100 farms in Vermont that use h2a as a program. Maybe Steve or Allison want to jump in at some point on that and then the third bucket area is, we heard a lot about last week which is the milk with dignity program which set up its own inspection system that looks at a bunch of different farms and whether or not farms who are part of that program meet the basic rental housing code. And I believe what milk with dignity shared last week was about 100 farms to, but I'm not totally sure on that. So, overall, like we know that most on farm housing is not currently getting inspected. And Allison is that how many farms. Approximately do we have with h2a workers, roughly 40. 45 to 40, and the report states 650 workers. So for what I think is important to understand is some of those workers are already here picking apples and then they transfer to a packing job order. They're going to live in the same housing that they were in when they were picking. So though it's it's a separate job order. There is some duplicative nature in that reporting. So there's roughly 400. We say 350 400 workers per year that come in through each way the report says 650. Okay, so, so actually, there are fewer workers they're just spread over a number of different jobs. They were counting the same worker a couple of times right they pick up and then they stayed a pack. And so when the boarder goes through, I think how the report, the author of the report was using the number of petitions that were filed and so a petition would file for packers and workers are already here picking and they just transferred a pack. Same worker same housing. Okay. I know some farms like diversified vegetable farms. I have a two way workers, is it possible that an h2a worker could work that. And I get that, you know, frequently with these farms, their root crops and so they might be there until October, November, but is it possible for a farmer who's going to work at one of these farms, doing vegetables to then transfer to another farm where there's they're doing turkeys let's say, to fill out the full 10 months. Yeah, so a worker can be here for up to three years, they can only work for the employer for 10 months it's the employer that defines the seasonal temporary need. So some of these workers are here over a 10 month period. It's not the worker who who defines the seasonal temporary need so they do they come here they pick they pack they prune, and then they go to turkeys. Some of them transfer for maple. It depends on what the ask is but there's a, there's workers that have been coming here some of them for 3540 years, and they do pick apples and then they transfer to the turkey farms in the fall. Right now you said that they could be here for three years is that three years without going back to where they came from. That's how the way visa works. So, so then. So is that how are the dairy workers are being here. They can only be here for 10 months for one employer. And so it is customary that the majority of them do return after that 10 month period summer here for only four to six months some for six or eight weeks if they're just picking apples. So it varies depending on the workers. Yeah, okay. All right. John, do you want to ask your question now. I just want to, maybe this is for Allison and Steve but what what obligation are, I guess it's going to be mostly our bigger dairy farms. What obligation are they under to to document who they have working for them. Whether it's migrants, or, or anybody really. And just how those, and even how those deals work like housing so often as part of it, you know as minimum wage part of it or are they just, you know, 100 different deals for 100 different farms. Allison is that your Bailey with loaded question. I don't know the answer so it's not really loaded just just curious. Yeah, so I think to answer you. Boy, I'm going to feel like a politician when I give you this answer though. I would rather off letting Steve take it but you know there are laws on the books right we have the Migrant Seasonal Protection Act. We have Fair Labor Standards Act. We have federal and state laws and so my experience with US Department of Labor and some of this is private sector experience before I came to the agency and some of these investigations they would call them as they pertain to labor they look at almost everything that you just stated in your question so they would look at a worker how many hours they're working. If they are truly doing agricultural work, specifically, those are here on an ag visa, even if they're not here on an ag visa if they're working for an agricultural employer. And they, I'll give you an example where I think we in Vermont have seen some employers walk into some wage and hour violations, but we continue to see our farms diversify. So when they're working under agriculture. We all understand that ag is exempt from paying overtime. If that same worker then crosses over to bake pies or slice apples, or now they're going to make cheeses and make yogurts, and they've worked 50 hours picking apples or milking cows and now they're going to tack on another 20 hours of baking pies or making cheeses. They're going to get to overtime if they're no longer doing agricultural employment. So it's very important that we look at the differences of manufacturing and agriculture. So without you know jumping into specifics. Let me give you a brief overview that yes they're subject to those laws and depending on the situation and a complaint or an investigator showing up they would be subject to making sure that they're meeting and following those laws. So what do Steve will look to the lawyer. I can add a little bit. I think representative of Brian you also asked about what the arrangements were around housing. And I think the answer is it's all over the place. In a, you know, a handful of scenarios there's perhaps a written release, written lease in many it's more of a verbal agreement. And it really differs by the farm. Again, those are still those situations are still subject to sort of renter rights and you know whether or not there's a financial exchange there in the investigations that I have seen they take the housing if there's not a written agreement on an amount and what it's worth they look at the fair market value, the number of workers who are living in it. And that's how they assess how much it's worth towards their total earnings package. Whether they have their family here or not does that come into it. Yeah I'm not certain. I mean we could definitely check in on that. But the wage an hour investigator that I've worked with, they just stated fair market value so I'm assuming that that's based on what it's worth for the employee regardless of who's living there. If there was really deplorable conditions. There's some way that the farmers feet can be held to the fire. I mean we we realize farmers are struggling and they're probably doing the best they can but if the conditions are really really horrible and we've heard some stories. In particular from migrant justice about about some of these conditions. Is there something these workers can do in terms of, you know they probably don't want to call law enforcement or the Department of Labor. But is there any recourse for them. I'm not sure I can answer that specifically, but I do know that migrant justice and milk with dignity have a really excellent pamphlet on workers rights that lays out some of the pathways that people can take and that organization, you know specifically is founded with a really strong connection around helping people in situations like that. I can't really speak to situations where people either aren't part of the milk with dignity program in which there is a recourse should that business be inspected and not be able to work with the organization to make changes that what we heard last week was that milk with dignity program. I'm interested in identifying challenges and working with the farmer to solve them so they can continue, you know, shipping milk to Ben and Jerry's which is the why this, the agreement under which they operate is that they sell to Ben and Jerry's and meet these requirements. But I don't know if anyone else can speak to folks that aren't under that program and how local municipalities handle this. Yeah, Steve, go ahead. Sure. Well, I think there's an important distinction that all of the state's laws apply to folks who are here undocumented. So in other words, a farmer can't violate housing laws or the employment laws or any sort of law simply because someone's undocumented. I think where the problem arises is that undocumented workers are concerned about reporting violations. They certainly can the state wants them to report it's not that's not the state's position in any way that undocumented workers or have any fewer rights than anyone else in terms of the enforcement of these laws. It's just that because of the precarious position that some of these folks are in there reluctant to do so, and whether that reluctance is warranted or not as a whole different question and sometimes it may be because even if the state does everything absolutely appropriately, it handles the violation. There's nothing that stops a farmer or a neighbor or someone else from reporting the person to the federal government to ice. So in that might be retaliation and that might be illegal, but there's still, you know, there's a difficult, it's difficult when you do not have the fundamental legal documentation to be here at all to to perhaps to worry about your individual other rights that may be being violated and the state certainly wants to enforce those laws. But we also understand that people that are in that position are vulnerable and they may be making difficult judgment calls so every law that exists in my opinion at least and there may be some discreet exceptions but for the most part they apply to everyone. It's just the access to those legal rights this can be much more difficult to to achieve. Right, right. Vicki you've been so patient your hand is up go ahead. Thank you. And I am trying to understand the process that when these folks come in and are helping either seasonally or dairy farms, you know for months at a time, who's, who's basically responsible for keeping track of sometimes to say 10 months, 10 six months a year or two years that at length of time can get lost in the shuffle who's keeping track of how long an individual might be here and when they actually the day they have to leave when they fulfill that time. How does that work that sounds confusing and a bit difficult to me. I'll take the question. So I think we're referring to those that are here under the visa programs representative strong they come in and they're approved for a period of employment at a particular employer. And so as mentioned before if there's a worker who wishes to transfer from an apple orchard to turkeys they have what's called an I 94 as well as their work visa. I 94 has their completion date of their current contract that's approved under immigration and US Department of Labor, as well as in their passport their work visa would have that same date stamped. And so the workers know that they need to be out by that date these employers that utilize these programs are very familiar that the end date of their job order is the end date of the I 94s. Even if they had additional work they need to petition to keep the workers here should they wish to go past that date and get new I 94 cards and updated documentation for those workers. When a worker arrives and they then are getting added to payroll they complete an I nine and w four is just like we would. If you get an I nine it says authorized to work until, and that's a section that we don't normally fill out because we're US domestic US citizens. But if you were here on a work visa that would be completed by your employer and so in their employee documentation for each worker they would know what the end date is. And the worker transfers to the next farm, if they go to turkeys they will get an updated I 94 card that'll show the new extension date, the new employer. They usually have agents as well that have worked some employers petition for the workers themselves. So a good portion of them do work with agents and so the agents will remind the employer that their end date is starting up and we need to arrange for departure transportation. Thank you, this is, um, does anyone help provide money for the transportation issues. Under the age to a program transportation must be provided and paid for by the employer. All right Vicki are you all set. Good to go thank you. Terry, go ahead. As far as the workers that are unsatisfied or whatever but I've been out of farming for probably 1212 years now I think or 13 but I recall back in my day, the she documented workers that there was a lady. I don't remember her name she had like, I don't know grandma something or rather, but she was like a overseer. And, you know, because these people don't just pop in from Mexico and, you know, and, oh yeah they're, they're here on your farm, you know they don't, that's not how it kind of works. And, you know, they, they have this kind of a network of, you know, she kind of takes care of them watches out for him whatever. But, so if they were dissatisfied working on this farm and show him she could swap them out and they'll be working on a farm in Britburg. The next day. I mean, that's the way it used to be I don't know if it's still that same way but it's not like they're here without any supervision or, or even when they're undocumented there. They, they have a kind of a network of people that watch out for everybody and make things happen. I could be wrong. Sometimes I dream things up so. So Terry, for instance, if, if in that situation that you described, and, you know, I have no reason not to believe you. If, if the housing situation was terrible, you know, there were rats and where they were living in a closet off the milk room or whatever we heard the other day. Um, would that granny so and so would she intervene with the farmer to say, you got to shape up here or you're losing your worker. I think she would yes, I mean she's, she, they called her, you know, when the Grammy I think she was mama or mother mother something or rather but she was that's exactly what she did I think I met her once or twice because she was kind of newbies in that whole thing because we just decided that a, before we got done we wanted to have a Hispanic worker so. So we looked into it, but she was, you know, she just like a mother hen she watched out for everybody. Interesting. Actually, I think I know where that farm is that you talk about but I mean my wife does she knows a lot more about the stuff that I even imagined but you know we know the farm that you're talking about with the, with the little housing off of the milk house. I mean they had a kitchen at whatever so. Yeah, but we won't mention here. I won't, but yeah, I think that's, you know, I think that's the way it used to be was this had a network of people that knew somebody and you know and if this, you know, sometimes they, you know, they get scared and worried they just kind of, you know, the next morning they've gone they've gone back to Mexico or whatever. I mean when I was working on the ferry one morning, they were like nine of them in New York waiting to swim across the lake. I mean we brought them over on the ferry and they, they had a cousin that worked on a farm over here or something you know and I know it's just a, I don't know, it's a very kind of a workable network of people. Maybe it is, maybe it's not the best thing that goes on but it goes on. It's like a, the underground I guess. Right, right. Yes, I thought I was thinking that exact word. So, does anybody know if that person is still that woman is still performing that function for these workers I mean, you know, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, this is probably something and maybe my migrant justice is trying to fulfill some of those needs at this point too. But anyway, I, I, you've painted a good picture Terry, in terms of what it all looks like. Just take it for with a great assault because it's been a long time. Yeah. And it's also interesting to me. I've referenced this book that I read I just returned it to the library called on the plane of snakes and which is by Paul Theroux and he talks about all of these workers that are trying to make it to Guatemala in particular, walking thousands of miles through Mexico all of the trials and tribulations they're having and, and I mean it's pretty impressive that these people actually make it but then let's say they want to head back to Mexico, what happens that, you know, they probably don't want to get on a bus and go. I don't know. Anyway, I'm not expecting anybody from the agency to answer these questions. Anyway, I noticed that Gus has joined us and Gus thank you so much for, for being a part of this today. One of our questions which I think we've had answered by Nick Richardson and Liz and others have been doing a great job is, you know, what about I was calling it it's conservation easement and would that allow for the construction of of worker housing. If we were trying to improve the lot of some folks that are working at our farms we do appreciate their work and and we understand some of the the problems including the concept of negative equity. So that's the term. Anyway, I don't know if you have anything to add. Yeah, it's negative equity, but you know we were we were have just been taking testimony and House general housing and military affairs is looking at housing and and would, you know, are there ways to provide better housing for in some of these cases where we know the housing is pretty deplorable. Okay, so. Well, I can try to address that and talk a little bit about why we did the study. If that would be helpful madam chair. Okay, so for the record I'm got ceiling on the director for the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board and we understood the study that John Ryan delivered last week, and that you heard about in your joint meeting because we knew that there were issues on farms and what I told your colleagues in the other body some weeks ago, based on the governor's recommend at the beginning of the session of a large amount of one time funding. And based upon the report John gave us that said, you know, a small repair program would go a long way to addressing these issues is that will take at least a half million dollars from the money's the governor's proposed assuming the legislature agrees and set up that repair program and make it available to farmers who want to make minor repairs. We did meet with milk with dignity and migrant justice about two weeks ago now, and they have a proposal to actually. This is another part of John's recommendations to do some replacement housing. That would improve quality and they outlined a proposal that they want to make to us they've been out doing some fundraising. And they want to ultimately take a home modular home that would cost over $200,000 and bring it down to about $120,000 cost to farmers it would be a what's called a zero energy modular home. We're going to get in a factory but with a solar package would not consume any energy, and we're going to take a look at that as a possible pilot project to try to fund. So I think that's how we're going to start on this issue. One of the problems that john said in his report that I think is important to note is because a significant part of the farm labor force is not here with full legal status. It's awfully hard to use federal funds for those folks. So when I was visiting with your colleagues in the other body. There was a thought that there was lots of federal money to leverage. That might true be true for some of some of the folks who work on our farms but also not true for others, and just makes from my perspective it really important to for there to be state funding that's far more flexible than the federal funding is so I'm really appreciative of the governor's recommend for one time funding and your colleagues in the Appropriations Committee actually took his recommendation and doubled it. And now he's made a major proposal himself to invest ARPA funding into housing so I think in the coming year or two we're going to have some resources to help address the issue and that's what we plan to do. For anybody who wants to wants to work on this issue. Great Gus thank you so much. That's that's pretty cool the the modular housing. And you say that it's the value is $200,000 but potentially we can bring it down to 120. That's their goal so they're asking us for some funding to help bring that cost down so that it's more affordable for you know you folks had your own discussion in the joint hearing and it's quite true that the particularly in the dairy industry but I've known that the economics of agriculture have been so rugged. Over the last several years that there are farmers who may want to improve the quality of their housing and other infrastructure they have, but they're under the gun to make water quality improvements, they're under the gun just based on cash flow so bringing it down is, is one of the ways that we can, I think, get to a place that we'd like to be. Gus, is it envisioned that that house would house multiple workers as as Allison was describing for the h2a workers sort of bunk style or would it be for a family that works on the farm. We haven't gotten a specific proposal but I think it's going to be a mix and I my understanding of what the report tells us is most of the workers are single adults who are here on their own not with their families. And so, but one of the issues was, you know, do people have their own bit on bedrooms are the cooking facilities in the bathroom facilities efficient so it would be to address. People could be living in that style and but there also could be families that are being housed that seems to be a much lower percentage of the overall population at this point. Yeah, and as Allison described the h2a workers come by themselves they do not bring families. But it also seems to me that the h2a housing is inspected, and there are certain requirements that need to be met whereas the problem really lies with undocumented workers who frequently do bring their family or I shouldn't say frequently because I don't know but they sometimes bring their families, and the conditions are potentially much worse. My understanding of john's report and Liz can correct me is that most people are coming are not bringing families. necessarily there there are some but that's not by any means the majority. h2a or not. So, you know, I think I should also just back up and say, housing quality is not just a problem. It's a very cultural landscape. I've worked with representative strong and a nonprofit she's been affiliated with and they've taken on lots of housing that was owned by private individuals in the Northeast kingdom that really hadn't been invested in in many years and fixed it up I think we were together up in Derby line about a year ago for a building right in the center of the community that had been turned from not terrific housing into good housing and again owners. Sometimes get themselves to a place where they're cash strapped and don't have the means to invest. What Vermont has never had whether for anybody is an inspection program for rental housing. We leave it up to town health officers to do the enforcement. And I think that there's a proposal in the legislature now to actually begin to create some capacity to inspect our rental housing so this is not an issue that's exclusive to the farm community at all in terms of housing quality and it goes to the very difficult nature of how can rental property bring in for dollars who's the owner and are they in a position to reinvest and it plays out in a different way in the ag sector because you also have an employer employee relationship. And your, your, your tendency is tied to your employment, which makes things more complicated. Right, right. Yeah, I think we talked about that in caucus today I think it's s 79 maybe, which will require a rental registry. So, good. I'm wondering if you have anything to add Gus or if anyone has questions for any of our, our witnesses today. I'm happy to take questions, but we will get a program started in the coming year and I hope that will be a help to the farm community, both to the employees and the employers. Yeah, that's fantastic. Thanks so much for all your work on that. Any other any questions. I'm seeing members here, they're just disappearing. There's still four of us thank goodness. Internet apparently is not very good in certain places of the state today. And Rodney's church burned down last night so it really tragic. I was talking to him earlier he was up through the night, like, got called at 130 and then had to go down at 230 because the clock was actually owned by the town and he's chair of the select board so I feel terrible I that building was built in 1805 he told me. And, you know, if our meeting house which was built in the 1802 guy got a fire I would just be devastated so I'm really thinking about him a lot today. So that's tragic. Yeah, what a loss. Yeah, yeah, apparently it was some electrical problem anyway, or they're looking at that. So, any other questions, committee members. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. All right, I think that's it. Committee tomorrow. We have. See you Gus I know you got to go and thank you Liz thank you Steve thanks to Allison. We have S 102. And Michael Grady is going to come at 830 tomorrow sorry gang, but 830 is the only time he's available. So Linda will be sending you an invitation for 830 in the morning. And then we'll go from there. I don't even know what's on the rest of our agenda. Hold on. Yes, oh tomorrow forestry issues. That'll be interesting calling Goodrich is going to be here. She's an Albany right, Mickey. Good. Yeah, she's been a good friend for 30 years. Yeah, she's so nice I love her. So Christy Colton will be here at Larson's on the agenda but he has said he just wants to be here because they're his, his clients he doesn't necessarily want to say anything. He's going to be here next night or be and we'll be talking about that language that we had entertained him. By the way, does anybody know what happened to that amendment that Lucy Rogers offered. Yeah, you know, I was going to email you about it Carolyn just that it was exactly what we have been talking about, as far as my understanding was so I just, I actually at the end, thank her that she withdrew it. Thank you for the amendment and the ag committees been dealing with that particular issue we're hoping to address then and come up with something and I encouraged her to be in touch with us. So, good, perfect. I hope I hope that was okay. Yeah, yeah, no that's perfect. She had called me the night before I explained to her that we were working on it and that, you know, we would love to see something happen but we also got that it's a natural resources fish and wildlife sort of, you know, to act 250 is sort of their purview. But that we were hoping that at some point, you know, we could get something through it might not be till next year but even if we worked on it and did some good work. We could find our work valuable. So, and then she said well, I'll, you know, I'll present it and depending on what their take is, I'll, I'll maybe withdraw it so I just didn't know what ended up happening with it. I knew that you had, you were on your webinar. I knew you weren't there and available to maybe explain what the committee was doing and I didn't go into any detail but I just want to assure everyone it's something we're thinking about and working on. Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you brought that up Vicki. Yeah, I'm really glad you did. All right. Any other questions now for anybody, Terry. I noticed that tomorrow at 1030 or 10 o'clock we're going to have Jackie Folson. And I just wanted to give you a heads up that the Senate added a probes added 500,000 to the fairs. And if we could encourage House of Probes to accept that that would be awesome for the fairs. So just a heads up. Yeah, yeah, thanks Terry. Yeah, I don't, I don't know exactly you know that'll probably be something they do go out in in committee of conference. The budget or is it in H315 or 315s in ball already sorry. Yeah, it's in the big budget. Okay, well maybe we want to talk individually with members of our probes. Yeah, that was the suggestion of the fair people. Yeah, if we knew anybody on a probes that might. Yeah, have a favorable opinion. All right, well we can reach out to our friends there. All right, anything else that you want to talk about right now. All right. Well listen to everybody thank you so much thanks for hanging in there, and hopefully tomorrow will be a better day in terms of I know Rodney will be back and and in terms of internet connections that let's keep our fingers crossed. With that we'll see you at 9, well we'll see you at 8.