 Everybody we are live and by live I mean live in Chicago and live over the internet airwaves via live stream you are Along with me very privileged to be in a conversation with Lin-Manuel Miranda Big big thanks to our sponsors final draft When you need to put to always have the last word final draft That is not that is not who they are all right. I didn't I just We just had a great session with you a couple hours ago, and we got sort of the the backstory and It's amazing. Who doesn't know all the amazing things this guy has done in the Heights the little polish on West Side Story and working and Like the most fun show I've seen in a very long time bring it on and You may not know he is the secret weapon behind the Tony Awards all those fun numbers that everybody raves about how great Neil Patrick Harris is This man doing it on the fly Every time I watch I'm like So you're gonna tell us today sure all right cool. We're gonna start at this vodka's amazing We're gonna start in the middle. We know where you came from. I want to know what are you doing now? What's got you on fire? right now besides Luminati's deep dish pizza has me on fire Right now here in Chicago But I am I'm pretty single-mindedly working on this Hamilton musical that I've been working on for about four years now I've been writing it since I was still in Heights writing backstage when I read this amazing biography by Ron Turnow about the guy on the $10 bill and and just Fell in love it just his life story resonated with so many of the things I wanted to write about And it was this Sort of side of history. I really knew nothing about I knew he got shot by the vice president But I mean, you know Dick Cheney shot a guy That's nothing new and so but I just I fell in love with his story and and I've been working on it for the past Four years and we just did a reading up at New York Station film Advasser and and sort of presented what we had which was One act and three songs in act two. There are 30 songs in act one It's a it's a song through it's a it's become a song through and wrapped through show And so that's that's my life If you don't mind me delving. Yeah, what's the conceit? How are you taking history and putting it in a contemporary form without giving too much away? I'm I'm I'm just doing what everyone else who writes musicals is doing I'm I'm Finding a musical vocabulary to tell this story for me hip-hop seems like the only way to tell Alexander Hamilton's story because he is He is I Because it's it's it's a story about words and it's a story about using Words to save your life and destroy your life This is a guy who pulled himself out of his circumstances because he wrote a poem about an Hurricane that had decimated St. Croix where he was living He was 14 years old He wanted to be anywhere but where he was he wrote a letter to a friend the first letter We have from Hamilton says um, you know, I know I am said to be building sand castles in the air But we have seen such schemes successful when the projector is constant. I will conclude by saying that I wish there was a war This is an intense 14 year old And this hurricane destroys the island and he writes a poem about the damage and the the poem gets used as a way to raise money for relief funds and people take up a collection to send him to the mainland to get His education because he's all self-taught. He's reading what he can where he can he out dickens is any dickens character, you know and he makes himself indispensable to George Washington because he can write really quickly in English and in French and And becomes Washington's aid to camp all the while He's lugging books through the Revolutionary War boning up on monetary history because he knows it's we're gonna need it because the currency we made up is worthless and We're losing because British troops Americans are helping British troops over the Revolution because their money means something and ours doesn't This fear of chaos and and and and basically makes himself indispensable to Washington He also thinks he's the smartest guy in every room. He's in so he makes enemies of pretty much everybody else Because so there's the Constitutional Congress, right? We're deciding what kind of government we want to have Hamilton says this plan is great And if this is the plan that's fine But I have my own idea and it's five five houses of government and holds forth for six hours His own version of what the American government should look like half the room goes this kid is a genius the room Ben Franklin sitting in there someone going And and so we see him sort of make and destroy his career by his own sort of strength of speech and Strength of character cool, and that to me is to punk It's it's this just relentless torrent of words some of which are incredible but also this massive contradiction some of his songs are you know these beautiful a beautiful ode to his mother like Dear mama, then the next one will be hit him up where he takes out every other rapper working saying fuck you fuck you fuck you And and these contradictions are all in Hamilton, too Sounds amazing. I can't wait now You are you're driving this do you have co-conspirators? I do I I have been working with Tommy Kale who directed in the Heights, and you know, I was working very much by myself and I was writing at the frantic pace of a song a year and Tommy heard I played Tommy what I'd written so far He said there's no reason you shouldn't be writing this faster and like we did on Heights We started just setting these deadlines and and it's been a very weird road with Hamilton because we kind of showed everyone the ultrasound Before there was any hint of a baby like in the top of the first trimester You know I performed this the first song from the show at the White House, and that's become its own viral YouTube thing That was the only thing I had written and that was the first public performance of it But the White House called and said we're doing this evening of spoken word poetry You can do something from in the Heights if you want But do you have anything on the American experience and I had a hot 16 about Hamilton that was all I had And so it was and I just felt like well what better place to debut something That's about about this country and so you know that went viral in its own way I've talked to lots of teachers who use that in their classroom And and to prep them for their American history seminars, and I just want to say wait wait wait That's just the first song in the show So so I'm you know I've just been Doing my best to sort of finish it and so we you know New York Station film was one benchmark And we're continuing to set that line so that we have a show hopefully by next year Now did you put that out there to light a fire to say I'm doing this and it's out in the world now And now I have to finish it I honestly a couple of We're yes in one sense But I didn't know for instance that HBO filmed that evening They were following two of their poets who are also performing and that's why that footage looks like it's out of some surreal movie about my life As opposed to just like stock footage of a White House performance It's HBO edited and put it together and put it online. I didn't know that was gonna happen going in I just knew that I think the president will like this And I didn't know anything else sort of going in so that was all sort of a happy accident, but um, but yes I very much need deadlines to write And and with this one the deadlines have all been weirdly public Which is scary, you know because it's people have known about a long time and you know You want to you want to live up to that but at the same time It's it's just the way this one is you know some pregnancies are difficult some pregnancies are like I'm in my third trimester, and I just found out I was pregnant And this one is this one's just been really polite. I started showing really early and that's just what it is So you kind of have to go with it I don't think we've talked about collaboration a lot You obviously have some people you trust. How did you find them? How did you how did you when did you know? I was very lucky to find Tommy Kale early early in my career at the dawn of my career really So I started writing Heights as a most people know this so I'm gonna say it quick but I started writing Heights as a project in school in college and I had a recording of that and a script and two kids who were seniors at the time Neil Stewart and John Mailer Norman Mailer's youngest son Saw that show and were committed to starting their own theater company when they moved to New York Which was gonna be that year I went on and I put in the Heights in a drawer and kept writing and acting and stuff through college And they started that company with Tommy Kale so Tommy had two years of listening to my college version of in the Heights on his own and making notes and he was aware of it before I was aware of him and True to their word the week I graduated they got in touch with me and said we love we're still interested in Heights You know happy graduation come meet us. We've built a We're building a black box theater in the basement of the drama bookshop the Arthur Ceylon theater Which is down there was a storeroom and they basically said hey We'll turn this into a theater and you can have all the money from it if we can have a clubhouse Which was very smart of them and and so I was in there when it was still just a storeroom and And Tommy with two years of wanting to talk to me, but I don't know why I didn't talk to me sort of said Usnavi's an interesting character, but he's only in two scenes He could be your narrator because all the stores go all the stories go through his store in Washington Heights is a really cool song But it's third it should be first and establishes your world and and sort of hit you know hit me with where and Again, this is where time is your friend and everything has to happen at the right time If you had said that to me after my sophomore year after having just seen it I would have said this is a crazy person And I think I've written the best thing possible because at that point in my life I had I'd sort of put everything I know into it When he came at me with all his ideas I said one this guy is really smart and is all of his ideas would make this show better and two I had two years of distance and perspective and and and I'm sure you have all learned this But there is the thing of when you let someone in to see your work and when you let Someone say it because you let him in too soon and they say something and that kind of kills the thing it's it's it's it's really to be protected and I had the benefit of two years distance on the show and it been sitting in the drawer And so I was really ready to hear any and all ideas on how to make it better And then I knew this guy was the guy to get me there and that that conversation that started the week after I graduated continued another six years and As as we worked through the show and again, you know We were very lucky to find producers that take chances on new work Kevin and Jeffrey have sort of made a career out of finding the Jonathan Larson's Bobby Lopez and Jeff Marx's of the world who have you know They're untested, but they have a good idea and they're willing to work hard and and getting behind that and they and they found Us and Tommy proving himself every step of the way because you know a lot of time is you'll be paired with a more experienced director And and Tommy just kept proving himself every time he had the chance to direct a piece So he he came along with the work because he added value to it He was really a an unofficial dramaturg and when Kiara came on board in 2004 Helped us all triangulate and you know did the thing that you hear John Kander and Fred ebb say about How Prince when he is directing their shows you talk and you talk and you talk until you're all writing the same show And and that's that's when musicals go off the rails when the music and the story don't necessarily match or you know This person wanted to write this and and they've made a Frankenstein instead of a beautiful thing and so You know Tommy's really good at that and and so he's been a really indispensable ally Now when you were Working it through and developing I'm sure that what these producers were the weren't the only opportunity Who did you have to say no don't not naming names But tell me about saying no to somebody that you were like this is the biggest mistake or I know I make I'm even though Everybody's telling me it's the biggest mistake. I know I'm yeah I mean I could I could name producers that you know who said you know It's a really strong musical vocabulary But we've got up the stakes and up the stakes if you're dealing with Latino show is make Nina pregnant or involve a drunk Some kind of drunk plot because that's what the producers who were talking to me see on the news when they hear about Washington Heights They don't hear the good stories that come from Washington Heights. They hear about the bad stuff on the crime blotter and and really Not only producers, but but composers who who saw the work Would say the exact same thing where are the stakes where are the Where are the drugs where the where's the crime? Which no one says to Woody Allen when he's doing his I've been mugged to once and it was on the Upper East Side in Woody Allen's New York So I don't know what that's about well, I know exactly what it's about And so, you know what what Kevin and Jeffrey are really good about doing is is is is saying Write the best version of your show and this is what doesn't work for us But they're they're very rarely prescriptive. They don't say you need a prostitute They don't say you need this and act to what they say is this works this works this works This doesn't work fix it and then trust us to fix it and and make it better and tell us what they think is missing and It's very collaborative in that sense and again Tommy being great about writing the world And then also finding Chiara who was writing these beautiful plays about her family and her community in northern Philly So that was also a really great marriage because she she doesn't shy away from any of the complications of Latino immigrant life in these struggling neighborhoods But but she also finds the beauty and truth of it and if you're writing from a place of love You know writing about this neighborhood Is it can be a joyful thing and that's that's what I think I think that's what people take away from the show is People have this feeling of I either long for a community like that or I relate to one of these characters because Somewhere along the line Whether it was me or whether it was a parent or a grandparent someone sacrificed so I could do better Or I'm killing myself so that my kid can do better. I think that is something any parent or child can relate to and we deal with Various iterations that story all all through the plot fights Now was your goal always to be in the show? No, I I always did us not I did us not be in all of the readings And workshops because it was just the heaviest lifting and it was the most to teach So it made Tommy's job easier for me to play us not be and then charmingly tiptoe around the plot holes Or whatever we hadn't solved yet as the writer while we While we focused on on the other actors and getting them sort of involved in the world the way Tommy put it was like You'll play us Navi for now. We'll get a real actor later And That's fine. And and and that's fine because you know as you can see from my Manic public energy. That's that's you know, it works. It works for the character and so You know when we when we met Kevin and Jeffrey, you know Kevin I was still writing. I was still doing book music and lyrics at this point And it was becoming an operetta because I know how to solve problems musically I know how to solve dramatic problems musically. That's my that's my thing that I'm good at when it becomes dialogue It's like all efficiency leaves and I don't have that gift and Kiara very much has that gift and so You know Kevin's has said tooth, you know Here's Kevin producer of rent producer of Avenue Q which is in previews at this point in 2003 And he says I don't know what this story is and I don't think you do either But I love the musical language and I like you as that guy And so I sort of fell in the snowball as it rolled down the hill and and so Yeah, and I'd always acted and written in equal measure in high school and in college I'd always I'd write a show every year But I would also act in other people's things because it just helped my writing like they feed each other I mean, they're two sides of the same coin So it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't you know getting the the stage manager who doesn't want to be on stage and shoving him on stage I had experience, but it was You know a very happy accident. Oh, yeah Happy for us No, I mean who's who's seen in the Heights Who's seen it three times? All right One of my beloved childhood experiences you've got a chance to To get involved with and just refresh it so much Delight to to revisit electric company. Oh, yeah, you've got to talk about that. Oh, well sure I mean that was great like I I mean I grew up with electric company, too And you know in my house Rita Moreno is a patron saint So The fact that we got asked it was not just me but on this this hip-hop improv group I'm involved with we were sort of involved in the creation of the first test pilot And then we didn't we weren't as involved as the show became what it is and moved forward the revamped electric company but we still got called on to write songs Bill Sherman who did the Co-orchestrations for in the Heights was the musical director so he would call and say we need we need four songs There's a rap about hard G and soft G song about silent E and And and there are joy to write and and now he's a music director at Sesame Street So, you know, I write a song or two a year when Bill calls me and says we got a Grover has to rap about being friends And it's and it is a joy the best the best thing and this is like one of those things that Unexpected gifts that happen because of the circumstances when you write for Sesame Street They send you this PDF that is the vocal ranges of all of them up its so Like Grover can't sing above a D and can't sing a below, you know a middle C Whereas, you know, Big Bird has this range and you can't write one note outside of that range and it's super fun To to sort of the challenge of like So any time those assignments come up, I'm happy to sort of put everything to the side and write them Would you give us a little demo maybe? Oh gosh? I'm trying to think of one that was piano here, but um, there's a Silent E as a ninja is the one I wrote the fastest and that is the one that most people's kids know and it's about the fact that he He jumps on the ends of words and and changes the pronunciation. It was like Silent E is a ninja Silent E is a ninja. I didn't notice when he came I cannot accept any praise or blame and then it just like goes on to like all these words and then Like the E comes in changes the meaning that gets like escapes So that's that for summary. I was walking my dog in the park about a month ago And this kid started following me this like 13-year-old kid And I finally stopped and said hi, and he said And then I went where'd he go where'd he go? And he was like, well, where'd he go walk the other way? It was great No, you used to teach. Oh, do you miss it? I do my my first job out of College was teaching seventh grade English at my old high school and I taught and it was fantastic because I had just gotten out of there I was four years in college and then I'm back in my school all my teachers are there and And suddenly you're at drinks after parent-teacher conferences with your teachers Which is great because some of them are much cooler than you thought they were when you were a student and some of them are just Crazy as they were Even crazier So that was enormously fun But what I what I loved most about it is is that moment when a kid sort of grasps an idea and wraps their head around it And it's sort of my learning curve on teaching was it's the opposite of performing actually a lot of people think it's this Performative thing, but when you're really doing your job as a teacher, you're talking very little You're prodding just enough to get the kids engaged with each other And you're just kind of keeping the ball in the air when when the volleyball goes to the side And and the the learning curve from hi I'm Linda Miranda. I'm your teacher to like really just sort of lobbing a question and just watching them Engage each other and and and sort of tease out what they're what they're learning in discussion Was a real joy. So, you know, I was I was asked to to do it again the second year You know, I did it for a year and they asked me to come back and it was one of those I could see myself being very happy doing this for the rest of my life So I'm going to stop right now because I don't want to mr. Holland it out And I took the much scarier road of being like a broke writer for a very long time and substituting Being a professional sub at Hunter for a long time, but also just doing whatever I had to do to pay rent Let's Your time guys. Yeah Hit me Somebody anybody we've got a microphone. We're recording this. So if you don't mind stepping up Hi, I'm a big fan of hip-hop as well And I just wanted to ask you kind of what you think about the current state of hip-hop music And also why you feel like it hasn't been more prevalent in musical theater because you see some but not not a lot It feels like they're very Complementary forms just kind of what you think about the intersection of those. Yeah That's a great question. And I I agree with you that they're complementary forms. I think the things I love best About hip-hop music are some of the things I like best about musical theater Which is sometimes this this verbal dexterity that takes you to this other emotional place And when married with the right music transports you I think that's what musical theater and hip-hop do best And they both do it best You know in terms of the current I Think I hope you agree that the music that you end up writing Resembles the music that mattered to you the most when you were a teenager because you had the most hormones Coursing through your veins and it's when you just felt the most and and so, you know, I you know I listened to a lot of Modern hip-hop and I listened to what's on the radio But my heart is in 1993 because I was 13 But that also happened to be a very interesting time for hip-hop because it was it was sort of the last it was just before the Chronic came out and when there were number one hits that were not all gangsta rap songs There was PM dawn. There was a rest of development. There was a tribe called quest. There was common There was this sort of feeling that it could go anywhere and then the chronic Was such a massive crossover hit that that became the dominant sound For a very long time not that those other forms didn't still exist, but that was what ruled the radio I think that What's on the radio and what's being made are two very different things. I still think there's a lot of really exciting Hip-hop I you guys are probably not hip to this but right now in the hip-hop world Kendrick Lamar just released this verse on a mixtape where he names every other rapper And he says I respect y'all but I'm trying to murder you with every track I do which is really kind of unprecedented in hip-hop because I think one of the lessons of the 90s where people would Take it very personally and and there were there was real physical violence associated with these songs that were being released And this was a really interesting gauntlet that was thrown down. He said lyrically. I think you're all great But I'm trying to be the best. What are you trying to do? And so it made it about lyrical wordplay and rappers started answering the next day with songs And that's really exciting So I'm excited about that because I think that moves the art form forward in a way. That's positive and Big Daddy Kane wrote an amazing tweet about it. He said I love that hip-hop is Can be a competitive sport. I just don't want it to be a contact sport and I think that's So That's my thoughts on hip-hop right now very cool might be dated in five minutes Lynn I have a question Regarding the bilingual aspect of your musical how much of that Did you have to change anything and did you have to pull anything out from the original or was that ratio of the Spanish English? Pretty much the way it was originally presented Well, yeah, I mean I guess it depends on what you mean by originally presented, you know We probably doubled the amount of Spanish between off-Broadway and Broadway Which is sort of an interesting thing because you would it seems counterintuitive right like quote-unquote Broadway Quote-unquote Broadway audience Make it accessible to everyone that being said Another one of the fun things about writing heights specifically was you're dealing with a bilingual neighborhood So we get to play with two languages And I you know my my number one job is to make the audience feel taken care of no matter who they are So generally even though there's lots of Spanish sections, you're getting the English translation or you're getting the gist of it Right away, and it's built into the DNA of the piece You know and and the fun of trying to rhyme Spanish with English And and you know and doing our best to marry those two things and and and making that another Choice right so you know the old adage in musicals is when we're feeling too much to speak We sing and when we're feeling too much to sing we dance and and and adding And adding when we're feeling too much to sing we rap and adding when we're feeling too much to sing in English We sing in Spanish. Um, so You know it's just sort of like you know adding a couple of sides to the dye And and so that was really fun to play with you know contrast that with my work on on West Side Story, which I was asked to do by by Arthur Lawrence and You know, it's very one thing when it's one thing when it's built into the DNA of the piece It's another thing when you're touching a masterpiece that people really like myself included I don't think I ever would have undertaken it had it not been the creators of the show themselves being involved But you know we did the experiment we I adapted I feel pretty the shark section of the quintet and a boy like that I have a love and by the end of the Broadway run just I feel pretty wasn't Spanish because the audience was like Why are you messing with our show? And there was a lot of pushback and I think we assumed everyone knows West Side Story It's the closest thing to canon to legend we have But but there were a lot of people who wanted to see a production like they had done in their high school or like they had Experienced in the movie version and and really didn't want that messed with and I get that like I don't I don't I don't take any You know, I don't take it. I don't take it personally It was an amazing experience to work with those people and I do it all again But again, where something we just accept it with height because it's sort of marbled into the recipe It's different when you're messing with something people really know and then really takes a heart But it's on the recording. Yeah, it's on the recording and you got to hear it Pretty nuts Hi, Lynn I'm I'm someone who played Maria West Side Story like three times as a little Iowa farm girl So it's a really special musical to me and I I grew up teaching Little kids on the farm that someday they could do musical theater too So I moved to New York City and I moved to Inwood and I remember and this is about ten years ago And you're one of my heroes because I'm a musical theater writer I wrote book lyrics in choreograph and teach just like you so people in the hood would say yeah, Lynn's doing a show I mean, they knew of you on the street Broadway Just you know what we're that with where the train and Broadway with all those little shots. I live, uh-huh They were like, yeah, Lynn is gonna be he's gonna be famous. He's gonna be that's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy I can give you their names and I'm like he is gonna be famous and I saw your first workshop Oh, fantastic in the Heights and I'm like he is gonna be famous So I just I tell your story to lots. I live in Chicago now And I just finished my PhD and I tell people your story that our kids all the time I'm like, you know what you can write book music in there. It might take 20 years There's a show and so you're you're you're an example like lots of people in the room But I had to tell you that story and then I got to meet Westside story Arthur Lawrence and got to and saw the preview of Westside story and I said he's doing it again I'll tell you why that story so crazy to me You know when when Heights came out there were a lot of sort of news pieces or even Broadway news pieces where they'd say All right. Well, the pitch was always let's walk around your Washington Heights I was like, okay if you want And I think they expected I'd walk into places people be like Like it is in the show I'm not really a Dominican bodega owner. I'm a writer. So I'm the guy who no one knows Sitting in the corner with a notepad while other people while cab drivers are talking and while you know While people are living their lives. I'm the one who is silent And I think you know the reporter is always crest fall like I wish you knew more people But they just don't know who I am or what I'm doing here. I'm just sitting in the corner and they claim you though So just so you know, I'm very proud to claim very I still live up there. So, you know, yeah, yeah, I go there all Nice job. Thank you so much. Thank you Can you dress the true rhyme verse the near rhyme which you're very yeah sure a Broadway for decades was all about the true rhyme and Pop music back in the day and the jazz era was all about the true rhyme as well And then even early rock and roll had the true rhyme, but most pop music be it R&B or country music or pop or power pop or hip hop It's the near-rom is the rhyme is really the art. How do you do that? So and but in Broadway, there's these purists and so how do you work with that? And how do you and also you're trying to get the story across so the true rhyme does help People connect with us. So, how do you how do you work with that? That's a great question I touched on it a little bit in the other panel. I'm really glad you asked it. The purists just don't like me And that's okay, that's okay, um, you know, I think there's a couple of things I think there are there are things that people have been handed as Lord, right? There is the I want song there is the 11 o'clock number and there is this notion that true rhyme is the only Rhyme that makes any sense in the theater, which has just been disproven by by every writer working in the theater I think there are You know, it's it's really interesting there are there are There is this sort of Feeling that that that rhyme denotes intellect, right? You know, there's some time always complains about his I feel pretty like how is she doing these Noel Coward Esca internal rhyme? She's the immigrant She's just gotten here And there's I get that at the same time There are so many rappers who are doing such incredible things with the English language who do not have a college education And it's about fun with language and and and through my own personal history With with family members who speak English and Spanish the fun you can have with syntax and the fun You can have with words It's so much bigger than a pure rhyme versus not a pure rhyme and and and there is also You know what I talked about the other panelist threading the needle in musical theater We reward the pure rhyme that lands with a satisfying snap But it but the other half of that that people don't talk about is it's also got to be unexpected and it's also got to be surprising and And I think people lose the force for the trees with that and and with hip-hop often The unexpected rhyme or the near rhyme is rewarded as as being outside of the box thinking and and You know sometimes it falls flat and sometimes it doesn't but delivery is a big part of whether it works or not So with in the Heights, I'm trying to write lyrics that will satisfy a musical theater fan who will say there's craft here But also the hip-hop fan who says all these rhymes are moon June who thinks true rhyme is actually boring And and so I was very conscious of that with Heights of When to choose my battles when to when to do pure rhyme when to break it when to do near rhyme and and and it's something I You know sort of doubled in intensity on this Hamilton project I'm working on because there's a lot more hip-hop lyrics and there's a lot of more internal assonance and there's and there's There's just lots more work, but but I think people use there's no true rhyme as a shorthand for there's no craft there And I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think that You should break the rhyme, but you got to have a damn good reason to do it And I think that's that's an important lesson that gets lost in the shuffle of true rhyme or get out So that does end at the lesson Now you did in the Heights for how many performances I Did the show the first year and then I did I did it in LA in Puerto Rico on the tour and then I did the last two weeks to close it out Stir a rhyme the night after night Well the first thing that sprang to mind and again not Is a me in the GWB thinking G. Nina. What do you be and I? Just really like the way that sat it said exactly what she needed to say And you know I was also in the bodega so I got to like watch her do it You know that's the other thing I had a perspective of the show for a year as someone inside it It's which is very different from from getting to watch your show So there's there's whole sections of this show when when I go to see a student production or someone's invited me to the production Oh, yeah, I was I was Backstage going to the bathroom because that was the only time I could do it So it's it's fun to rediscover the show that way. I Was just wondering One of the things I love about the end the high score is that it incorporates pop and hip-hop Genres, but it's still at its core theatrical score, which is what so what it's what I find so interesting about it And I feel like that's what makes the hip-hop aspects all the rapping all that I feel like that's what makes it work I was just wondering I've noticed a trend in some Broadway shows I can't name any off the top of my head right now, but that's sort of That are heavy on the pop but not so much on the theatrical So I was wondering what your advice would be to Up-and-coming composers who want to incorporate pop more successfully in a theatrical score. Yeah, I you know I That's a great question I Think the the kind of music I write is very much informed by the kind of music I grew up listening to so that has a contemporary sound to it I come by it honestly And I think I think any writer just should come out by their work honestly whether they're working in a genre or regardless like Gotta come from your kishkas, right? and so Sorry And So, you know, I I see what you're saying. I think that one of the things that So gets lost in the shuffle and it's so we learn it when we learn Peter and the wolf in fifth grade It's like every character's got their own rhythm and every character's got their own internal Combustion engine and I very much write from that place when Usnavi enters he's got an energy and he's got a tempo And a musical language and then when he and then up well as like old-school Cuban and she's got her tempo And she's got her thing and when they sing together those tempos mashed together and it makes its own song It sounds simple, but you'd be amazed How many writers? Particularly first-time writers and so that's why it happens Just sort of throw songs at situations without regard to why it is he sing like this or why does she sing like that? It's the reason 95% of jukebox musicals don't work You haven't solved the initial question of why everyone sounds like this catalog Right, like why do they all sound like that? You know Jersey Boys is ingenious because that's that's the story of their of their Ascendants and the music is organically coming out of their their rise But you know, I've seen I've seen workshops of I won't name names, but I've seen workshops of jukebox musicals of pop catalogs and it's like why do they all sound like this pop artist who's music you're doing and You haven't answered the central dramatic question. Do we live in a world where he's God? And that's why they all sound like him You know if if you're choosing this artist There must be some sort of variety in their work that okay, you know This era of this artist's life sounds like this character like you've got to do that work of You know the most the musicals I love like there's that character song and every time they come in They've got that energy and they're bringing it to the story and that's what people forget They just sort of throw songs at the story as opposed to Really delving into doing the playwright work of delving into character. How does this person tick? And then how is that expressed musically? That's what's missing Oh throw down You're the book writer you're the lyricist you're the composer What what comes first when you're in your process? Hamilton is the first thing where I'm I'm doing all three and that's because it's sung through we We actually Tommy and I went down the road with a playwright for a bit And we realized there's so much hip-hop and heightened speech that this was gonna be a song through a project And I didn't want to work with a great playwright and not get to hear any of their words So I sort of took up the mantle of doing all three with this one and again if we're you extending the pregnancy metaphor to its Logical torture is extreme. I I was already way too pregnant with the show to sort of begin working with another writer on this particular project It always starts with with character And and with the situation and then music and lyrics come in when they come in Every every single song is different and I'll say my favorite Leonard Cohen quote Which is you know being a songwriter is is like being a nun. You're married to a mystery And your job is to create this thing and you don't know, you know at every stage You don't know what's gonna come first The situation may suggest a an urgency and a tempo and you start from the tempo and work backwards You know with bring it on that was set in the world of cheerleading. So Really, I built that score by Andy singing a tempo at me and a and an energy at me and writing down what he did and Andy's a very if you know Andy Blankenbühler He's a very expressive guy and it has to feel like And I would write And I would notate At the tempo he spat it at me that would be the first thing on the page and I build from that And he'd go, how'd you know what I wanted and I go cuz I wrote down the gibberish you yelled And started there and so it very much felt of a piece with the energy He was trying to bring in with heights. So we had these, you know, we were trying to figure out how to write a Right figure out the story the language and the characters all at the same time So it took a longer time because you write this great song and it derailed three things in act two It was like a it was like a twelve-sided rubik's cube and And then with Hamilton I have this great narrative spine of this guy's life And the torturous part is is what to omit and and you know, what? What what moves us forward? What you know, what this guy is is relentless He he lives in turbo. He never stops slept three hours a night and and he's verbose So it's like you got to fill that machine. So I've been actually it's been a lot of Sweeney Todd and gypsy for me Because those are musicals that are built around a personality The structure is gypsies this whirling dervish and she's gonna go you know mama Rose is gonna go and everyone's reacting to what she's gonna do next and so that's that's how I'm sort of Approaching approaching Hamilton is is this guy's gonna go whether you're with him or you're not and and and it's both Inspiring and terrifying and intimidating to all of the other opposing forces in his life We are out of time. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I know you can ask afterwards All right, all right. Thank you as another former teacher turned starving writer what How how are you currently or how would you like to be helping other early career artists move into the field and Sort of as a corollary to that Do you think there's a best way to do that? There's no shortcut for writing, you know, I I am Because I never got enough hugs as the child. I'm quite addicted to Twitter It's an audience whenever I want and and so I you know, I get a lot of I get a lot of variations on that question and and And you have to write and you have to write and write and write and write and you will write through your bad stuff And you'll write through your good stuff and you're right when you're way back to bad stuff, but I I You got to have something to show and I think that's the number one step You know people come up to me and they go I had this idea for a musical Well, you can't show me your idea You can show me your musical and you can show me a demo of songs, but but you know, I think What I love are things like this, you know, I've been attending panels all day I my brain is still burning from John Wideman's writing history Seminar at three o'clock and listening to Theresa Rebeck's stories of writing in Hollywood this morning and so, you know Take solace in your fellow writers and and find those those like-minded souls. I'm so grateful Steve Schwartz is sitting here You know in addition to being the inspiration that he is, you know, when we were working on Heights Alex Lackamore music director was the conductor at Wicked So I learned more about orchestrating by sitting in the pit at Wicked, which I did about ten times Just sitting next to the guitarist figuring out how to how a pit worked and figuring out how this amazing score Was spread across these instruments. I owe him an invaluable debt for that and a million other things But you know take solace in each other and have fun this weekend. Thanks for coming. Very cool. Lin-Manuel Miranda