 If everything goes right, I got you want to set your recording. I'm recording mine at my end Right So as you John, oh you're recording always your side. Yeah So in any case, what why don't we just start because we're recording anyway and right you both can join right So One okay, I'll send a note. I'm gonna send a chat Okay Well chat will be there for people too Audrey is a stickler for transparency everything should be available Posted online for anybody Bruce Bruce may be calling from st. Petersburg, russia, and if he does i'm going to take i'll just leave this and take the call Okie doke Fake news in st. Petersburg. How's that for a trip? I Could probably use some of this stuff in st. Petersburg Right. Yeah So the cds I was just reading your your reply email Um, it is true that the constitutional draft bill is more hybrid uh, it says, um, basically around half I think of the the button-up constitutional thing, uh, is statistically randomly uh, but representatively driven But the other parts are from the legislators uh, and one from all the indigenous tribes. So there are three constitutional components and all around it's 146 people uh Where the indigenous people are six The legislators are 35 and every everything else is Random example, and so so it is a hybrid Yeah, but it's very close and it has it's a does have a kind of Stakeholdery because they're putting the the legislators who are The legislators going to be ultimately deciding this. This is this is to inform legislation Is that helpful? um, so So no This is to this is to bind uh, the legislation So that because taiwan has a extremely high threshold for constitutional change It first has to pass a thing three quarter In a parliament for any amendment to go through Uh, and then it has to pass a general referendum ish vote And so, um, the idea is that by involving Everyone from the legislative as well as from the citizen assembly um There's much more chance for the result whatever the result is to pass through the very high threshold That was there to begin with Right, so it's not binding and it's not merely informative It's working towards the high chance of both the public and the parliament Passing it that's correct. Uh, and uh, and uh Because it can't override constitution itself For how how high the threshold from the parliament Is needed to change it But yeah, so so I I suppose the designer of this this boost trapping constitution reform law Imagine that one of the binding Or not quite binding, but hopefully binding in the end the resolution will be too lower than threshold for constitutional change That that's that's just Yeah, right. And this is this is similar in a sense to the um Iceland iron one constitutional thing which did have legislators and and citizens involved in it So this is this is like doing doing your exercises prior to doing the high jump I was like, uh, yeah Yes Exactly. Yeah, it explicitly cites the, uh, British Columbia Ireland South Africa and Iceland, uh as its inspirations Interesting so the British Columbia one didn't have any legislators in it. It was pure pure citizens Right So so just to to make it clear. Yeah, it's like this Yeah Yeah, anyway Well, this is this is this is similar In them in the What's not there is the back and forth between the parliament. I'm just thinking about the way v taiwan operates in the Well regular regulatory realm Is a lot of work goes on which includes both the stakeholders and the regulators In creating stuff and then the regulation is is drafted and sent back to the process to be worked over So it'd be nice if the if the constitutional Disconstruction back and forth a few times between. Yes. Yes. So this is this is article nine And so google translate I think that's a pretty good idea of translating it anyway, but uh, just the high-level summary The article 14 says that, uh, from the beginning of this process within two months, there needs to be a blueprint Meeting And the blueprint meeting is to to set the the scope the agenda and the the process of it and then, uh, it it the blueprint needs to have this f2f component as well as online component And then, um Then from these people About so the blueprint meeting is for everyone there's several rounds and then 15 people from this Larger assembly so about one tenth of it is then selected as the drafting drafting team, uh, in which the citizen must not be less than, uh, Two-third so, um, at least six people Uh, sorry nine people No, ten people are from yeah, ten people are from are directly from here Uh, it doesn't say about indigenous nations. So Anyway, so that that's the idea and then then it translates the rough or broad consensus from the blueprint meetings, uh, and then starts Wow, uh, one regional meeting at least, uh, per county or city. That's about 20 or so 20 to 30 um, regional meetings uh, and And finally there is a a general assembly ish meeting that takes the the roundtrip Um meetings here are the regional ones Um back to the to the assembly here for the final, uh, binding since since it is Yeah, so so that's the general blueprint That there's a lot of stuff from the British Columbia thing in there. I know recognize Um, yeah, well, this is this gives some interesting precedent uh Interesting precedent for something that if you have a really major issue and constitutional Things are always really major, but they're not the only really major things there for overall guidance from the citizenry To the legislature and having the legislator involved Um provides a model for engaging with the legislative Structure that is complementary and engages the people and that's This big realization is sort of obvious But I didn't have it as a realization before that the The legislature is tight is rooted in the people whereas the bureaucracy is rooted in the stakeholders. I mean, it's just almost Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely And I see Colin has joined us. Thank you. Hi, Colin Hi all Hi, glad to meet you. Well, there's a bunch of things I'd love to talk about about all this in the midst of all this Uh, wonderful. Well, it's nice to meet you two. I'm up here in Seattle. So not yeah, not not too far away Globally speaking not too far away, but Yeah, I had some leftover before getting into some of the major things I had some leftover bits and pieces I was curious about from our earlier Things first of all, I'm curious you say that english is your fifth or sixth language and I go What are the languages that you know and how well do you know them just to the personal level? fifth language, right? so I was raised by my Well, by a lot of people but primarily by my grandma who who speaks taiwanese holoc and My grandpa was from Sichuan and so He speaks I guess Mandarin, but with a lot of Sichuan accent and idioms Of course when I go to school, I learned Mandarin Mandarin and so that's like two and a half languages and Then I went to When I was 10, I went to Germany Zachlan to be precise and When my dad was doing his phd there on the Tiananmen incident He was doing his field research there and so I had to learn deutsch And so that's like the third But you're wrong to be fluent in that No, not not anymore. I used to be I can I can still read Just fine. I think okay But there's so much material in my my world for whatever reason a lot of you know austria and germany Yeah Right, so so I I'm sure that with some practice I can I can still write but speaking and Listening it is it's not there anymore. Um, and uh because zhapland is at the border of French So when I was 10 and I went there, I also has to learn some very basic And again, it's it's all gone But but like the vocabulary of 10 years I would um, so that's like the force language or So like english is going to be the fifth I learned that when I'm already an adult and I went back to taiwan Yes, I started playing magic That's that's exactly right. I learned it from from measure to gathering. Yeah Okay, uh, I am curious from a more traditional Government and organizational thing. I mean overwhelmingly I sense What you're doing there is More volunteer slash open space slash community It's just sort of happening and people are moving through different different functions and And the whole thing kind of emerges very much like The occupy movement was or the March experience et cetera the whole self-organized stuff But you said you had a staff of I can't you had staff and and interns and Some of them some of them were there was 35 of one and 25 of the other. I can't remember what But particularly the staff I mean you're these staff. I'm assuming our staff of You as minister as Technology minister as minister without portfolio as digital minister. That's the official And you are you are um So this is is the is the digital Is the digital ministry Here are the stuff Yeah They're they're excellent people And you can see that we don't have a dress code For whatever Particularly digital stuff and come on Yes, right So, yeah, please go on. Are you these are These are all employees of the government because you are a ministry of the government, correct or not It depends right, so So, so, so the usually Yeah, so so let's see um I'm a political appointee, right. I wasn't elected. Um, and so It's true for all the ministers, right? All the heads it's true for all the heads of ministers So so so there's me and each political appointee minister with our portfolio has a Staff of exactly one or two people And I elected for two people and And they are my executive secretaries and so, um, we have we have zah who is the political My political staff and we have shuyang Who is the design and community and international liaison and re-architect and many other things staff so Audrey was not was not technically elected though In the court of public opinion. Audrey was certainly elected to her, right, right Yes, I explain not election Yeah Exactly exactly. Thank you, right. There's there's no voting process. There is a general consensus So, right So by by by all means these are really the the only staff I should have and most other minister with some portfolio Only has a staff of three People three or four people. Uh, we have nine such minister with some portfolio. However, um, I hacked the system so um that it becomes possible for any ministries Public servant career public servants to join us by way of volunteering they their salaries are still paid by their original ministries Uh, but uh, they can work onsite in my office. And so the original The original assembly, uh, the court team as we like to say so these three are say co-founder of of pittus, but very shortly like within a week or so, uh, we have Um, we have each in from from ncc the national development council, which is very important And stop for a second. Yes. These are different from the Participation officers from each of the ministries or are the the the PO's haven't even started I'm talking about at the very beginning of of my my work in the office. So like, uh, october 2016 Oh, what you're saying now is from earlier before po's were great, right? Right. These are all before po's. So we have each in from ndc. We have yaning from ncc, which is the national um, communication commission And who is also one of the primary authors of the digital communication bill? Uh, and we have, um Gongwan or dey from the now now the minister of culture Right. So so they joined pretty much on the on the first week and It's interesting because these three people were the original people who did the v taiwan platform, uh, and the joint platform At minister under minister jekyll and sigh and so they kind of joined as from I knew them Well as a understudy minister and so even though they went back to ncc and and ndc and moc To some degree they they just join us like within a week and then I went to the The institute of information industry the triple i which is like a Which is like 18f actually, but it was it like 18f from many decades ago Like 30 years ago or something. Uh, and the triple i Has supported the public workforce by employing people whose pay grade Is well above career public sevens. And so they there are a npo, but they have a very strong um government backing and So I asked each um part of the triple i so they have like Six different uh departments responsible for all the different parts of the technology and I asked that one each Join my office. Uh, and so suddenly I have six more people and then I then asked the general secretary that whatever Case that I work. I need to have an onsite customer So the the the very first cases we deal with are related to to taxation and finance and Agriculture there's a dashboard for the price of vegetables and fruits later on because of typhoon and Premier wants a dashboard of all the Factors of prices. So then we have the A council of agriculture and then we have the minister of finance And it just so happens that from the gov zero movement There's two public servants One in each that really want to join my team. And so they volunteered and again all this happened within the first month and then after that We just went to ptt which is like reddit reddit is this wonderful bulletin board and say that we're forming a participation network team And we asked any netizens Who are also public servants to volunteer to become participation offices? So the pros are the network then That we asked the participation literally from from the internet So they're also netizens. And so this is the po network and Um, meanwhile, um, there's many other people By a particular department. So I thought they represented the particular apartments They represented their ministry So they reported directly to the cio But we don't put a restriction of how many pios there is in a ministry So for example, the ministry of transportation and communication They have two pios at a very beginning one from the ptt who is younger and one is a much more senior executive Okay, well I followed maybe a third of that in the terms of the specifics i'm part of part of me Needs to have a quick rundown of the structure of the government which is i'm i'm sensing the Minister without portfolio. Is that what any head of a ministry is or is it Things that are needed across the boards like you are you're the minister the digital on the digital minister But you are And but you're also a minister without portfolio, but you talked about other ministers without portfolio. What? Yes, so so so right. So so Yeah, um, let me Draw a very quick not entirely correct Uh, organizational chant. Um, so our administration is called the executive union or e y And it is by the executive branch of american in american politics Ish, yeah And It's very different. You see we have a generally elected president But she doesn't Had the executive union. She has the presidential office But she appoints Our premier Hmm. Uh, and so the premier holds the executive power that may be replaced anytime by the president Whoa Okay, so this is very different. So which is why I have to draw this chart Um, and the premier is assisted by our deputy premier, uh, who may be delegated, uh Premier power, um for pretty much anything right. So so that's the The team however the executive union is technically headed by the by the general secretary um and But however above the general secretary, there is a team of pseudo deputy Premiers that are kind of like deputy premier, but we're like like, uh, only for very specific items If the premier delegates parts of his power or her power to the minister was a portfolio Then we may act in the capacity of premier In those particular parts Uh, however, we are not to make any decisions without a explicit authorization from the premier and a explicit, uh confirmation From the general secretary and so so this is the our reporting structure So this is the minister was a portfolio and how does the minister without portfolio Exists because like digital stuff is needed by every part of the government And I can assume that's true of other ministers without portfolio or not What makes no without no, um, so so again just to to hyper summarize a little bit. Um the executive union Technically exists, um between the ministries Right. So the ministries are headed by ministers, of course Uh with portfolio And the cabinet the the minister is uh nominated by the premier but ultimately Um appointed by the president Just as we are And and so this is again constitutionally very interesting because the president get to Essentially, uh formulates the cabinet in conjunction or in collaboration with the premier um, and so the ministers don't actually report to to anyone else but The president but by extension the premier and so we have like 31 ministries in 32 um, and the minister was a portfolio used to be all like 80 percent uh senior ministers they were ministers Uh, and then they they ascended to the executive union and still coordinated So that between many ministers the And the ministers with a pulvy portfolio Can have a profile that spans any number of ministries like three ministries five ministries seven ministries So that they can act as a bridge between the ministers And form a kind of virtual team around particular areas that are cross ministry But it's always very focused. Uh, for example, it's a tradition that we have a Uh a legal minister with our portfolio who oversees not just the legal Um ratification process but also the enforcement process and the other process related to law And so which means that they will have to talk to the ministers Um of of justice of interior of you know, you name it The right so so that's the multi-disciplinary and diplomatic role But it's a very one has a very specific realm within which they do that. Yes. Yes, but however at at a moment There's six such minister with a portfolio who has specific mandates or specific Realms that corresponds to ministries. There are at a moment three Ministers without with our portfolio that are cross cutting in the sense that we don't have any particular ministry to to oversee and and There's me Audrey in charge of Well, I'm the digital minister but also in charge of social innovation youth empowerment and social innovation and open government, right? So there's three mandates the social innovation open government and youth empowerment and as you can see all these are All all ministries are somehow related to those three things. And so so I don't have a specific realm and there's also A minister with a portfolio tone who used to be the minister of economy affairs. And he is responsible for Trade diplomacy so like all the trade service packs and the southbound policy and the new You know the u.s. China trade situation Is all his mandate again this cross cuts into pretty much all the ministries and then we also have And this is a new invention Mr. With a portfolio who is also the speaks person Of the executive union And this is a new invention because the speaks person Generally speaking is reporting to the general secretary and he speaks on behalf of the administration There is a purely communication officer staff However, because he is also minister of his portfolio when he goes to For example regional touring around Meetings to explain the policies He has now the the power to pretty much call any ministry and agency to go along with him So it is a it's like super empowered speaks person And so those are the three cross cutting ones and here are the six more traditional ones Okay and in This is there's the general secretary is in The prime let's say premier. I guess it'll be the prime minister What's called premier in some places is or what's called the Prime minister in some places is called premier here something like that Uh, well, well, well, yeah, but but but I mean none of those people in ui are Are from the parliament Right. So, um, it is not like in some countries where the ministers are also MPs Like like none of none of us has a constituent Constituency right Okay, so the and the prime minister is a function of Parties that are in control of the legislature That that that name is usually associated with that kind of function That's that's exactly right, which is what we call premier premier and to even more complicated things It is a custom for president to be also the head of the ruling party That's been true for for quite some time now And so presidents hanging when it's also the head of the democratic progressive party But that's a tradition not a requirement like it isn't not not another requirement And the previous president my angel was also head of the the nationalist the guo ming tam party Right, but they're not voting for the party. They're voting for the president and that president That's that's right. And and and that's very important because um at the end of the my angel presidency the Premier was independent Simon Zhang and at the beginning of the president's highest presidency for a year or so the premier was also independent primarily in chuan and so it is At the moment in the cabinet ever since the beginning of president taiwan's Original cabinet. There's more independent ministers parts of the cabinet than members of any party The ratio is around 40 percent independent 30 percent dpp and two point something percent KMT Okay, so it's a very balanced I have a hard stop at 745 tonight. So if there's anything that yeah, I'm I'm totally happy with sin But if there's anything if there's anything specific related to me, it should we should probably yeah, you're probably okay I will shift gears temporarily to Paula please do and I can We can go back. I have I want to continue from there in a few minutes. Hey Yeah, and paulis one of one of the central things in My search for inclusive wisdom, which is sort of my Participatory wisdom is sort of my one way to talk about What I'm interested in I'm interested in the quality of outcomes And I think participation is necessary because of complexity of the systems that we're dealing with the problems that we're dealing with So I'm looking at the extent to which paulis can generate collective wisdom And a lot of my inquiries come out of that So one of the things I'm assuming although I can't read You know chinese to tell what's going on with the specific results of the v taiwan paulis things I am assuming that the paulis process Surfaces two kinds of consensus One of which is lowest common denominator Consensus which is you know, we the people want world peace or something like that And the other is somebody's suggestion That came out of the process that happens to be a brilliant suggestion that encompasses a lot of what needs to be taken into account And everybody from all sides is recognizing that And that's a closer to wise consensus, and I'm assuming both of those are generated by paulis. Do you have any thoughts on that? It's funny. I think audrey is going to the uh, civic historical recently that uh, I was about to go to as well And so audrey do you want to share about that for just a moment? And then I can fill in or do you want to share that link? No, you can share this link, but but what I'm saying is that the paulis system, um, doesn't um have a component that um Really determining how wise is any statement However, it does list the the statements that have they've achieved Broad consensus not just in the final report, but throughout the game. And so, um, the whole idea I think is Of course, we always almost always see um those general general Consensus items, but uh as time goes by It will be repetitive if people see a majority opinion opinion, uh that is Like not exactly surprising. And so it very gradually goes into more wise Suggestions if you let the game play long enough and there's this brilliant, um link that that's uh Colleen just pasted called testing tech for consensus in the purple town that goes into the Like play-by-play Bowling Green Kentucky columbia university just ran, um Started with the polis conversation and then went into a 250 person town hall, uh, at which, um, many, uh, both elected and appointed, um And kind of career And then that followed with a with a round table What you'll notice from this is that uh, their their emphasis on starting this instead of with a topic as would As was done in v taiwan, but with a general how could we improve life in bowling green was Led them to a very general discussion oriented kind of an event rather than a focused If they had done it on something like opioids, which is what what which was the suggestion for the follow-up from several parties I think they would have had probably a more discreet outcome In terms of what power was willing to address and to you know They could have had a panel that was much more focused on on on on some kind of concrete Or specific change as it was Though there were Over 2,000 people that participated um from a town of about 60,000 So that was quite a quite a solid percentage of um people that were engaged in the there It was all what was also clear. Um, was that there was an enormous amount of consensus, uh And the things that were controversial were these kind of national strawman issues things like uh things that really don't affect people day to day The things that affect people day to day. There was a huge amount of consensus in the city about Across party lines. Uh, and that's that was that was clear and that that to me was a success. Um It was a success on a number of levels though. There were certainly a Certainly it's uh, it does not um, I don't I would not say that it moved the dial on any specific issue But that model wise it was like it did the first half correctly Which was the you know, it got it distributed through independent media, which I think is the legitimate That is the kind of proper model in the united states. Uh, have independent media and uh universities run Run the conversations and then feed that into uh, if power is unwilling then feed that feed that into a situation where it creates legitimacy If power is willing to come to the table and run it then, you know more compromises from civil society can be made but There's there's a there's a basically that that's kind of I think a little bit more art there than science As to how how you would approach that I I think that's a fabulous example and thank you for an English-American example. I can die. Absolutely through there to the report See what yeah, I love that. I'm there's a couple of there's a bunch of things I like to talk about and you can only have five more minutes We can't talk about all of them, but one of them I'm imagining again. We uh, audrey and I discussed some The different ways that might be able to be messed with Uh and a new one I came up with since my last talk with audrey would be somebody who's not trying to Bias the system towards their perspective, but it's just trying to demolish its ability to do its work so if you have the bot that is gives random answers And you have lots of those giving random answers so there are More random answers than there are real people intended answers What would be the response of a system to that kind of invention intervention? It's a good question. Uh, I think that uh, so I can ask that at a number of levels one of them is that um, you know random is probably what you would see Uh, and if you if it were I can sense this that's what I'm thinking. It would hide Let me let me say it this way like, um Random is a pattern Because random is a pattern Quite distinct from how people vote people don't vote anywhere near randomly Like people vote in incredibly deterministic patterns, uh through through these things And so you have the kind of like you have the kind of like idiot or genius. Um, uh, uh effect there where it's like either If someone is voting dramatically different than then like there are certain patterns through the through the woods, right? Um, there are there are not like certain statements, you know, you vote on one You must vote inversely on the other one if you vote and have both of those in your head at the same time Something's something's too seriously wrong, right? So without you could cancel all that effect out you would you would see You would see that um But it would be difficult you would have to be looking for it So I mean it would not necessarily be a pattern at the outset But it's an arms race, right? If it is the case that people begin throwing bots at polis, which we have not seen I I I I'll explain this at a number of levels One level is that it's an arms race, right? Um, it's you know, and it's an arms race security is an arms race in general Um, I think and so so we can detect for instance that the votes are coming in every 50 milliseconds That would maybe look like a bot, right? It looks the clicks look too deterministic google uses that to for a capture Right, how are the clicks coming in you can look at ip addresses and if they're known bot ip addresses You can look at there are any number of Of things that you can get into with the arms race. We haven't gotten into any of them And I think there's a question there as to why we haven't gotten into any One is that we're not high profile enough yet. That's you know in a way like right We're not like being used like oh, we're not the american electoral system, right? This is not the level of which we have once you start moving towards that There will be more effort to perhaps. I mean we were just used by the canadian government on um, and I'll I'll share this link as well. Um, because this is uh, um The visual arts community a conversation about copyright in canada. This is the government of canada has just used it. Uh, and singapore, um, uh, let's see here. Um There the singapore's ministry of youth Is also using it right now and running live conversations So there are there are ministries around the world and in national governments that are running conversations Even still these are ministries that don't necessarily Get more than a couple hundred people showing up to discuss things Um, you know, it is not connected to a civic tech community or a visible Perticipatory framework the way in which v taiwan came out of out of out of god zero that matters a lot The visibility and the kind of an organic social spread and the degree which civil society is looking at this It's a means of outlet of frustration Has something to do with how many people show up and what a focal point is But I think the other thing is that who are trolls and who are bots in the first place A lot of times they're people with an axe to grind and you know and and or or they're people who are looking to exploit a system Right, so I think I think the motivations of the bot actors are also very important to consider as to why it has or has not been attacked Um, you know, and I think that's that's something that's a different level and we can only speculate there But I think that you know, I'll put it this way when we went when polis went up on hacker news People said oh, that's extremely smart And it's funny we got a really good reaction from that crowd, right? We were afraid when we posted it that way back when right it was like, oh man If people see that, you know, it'll like they'll they'll know what we're doing, right? Then and it'll be pretty clear how to how to game it. We didn't see anything like that I mean and and again in taiwan there are you know thousands of Thousands of technologies with eyes on who could certainly write a script to game it And I guess the there's a question of motivation as to why hasn't that happened not again We could only speculate but I think it's worth speculating, you know There's there's a level if technologists see something that significantly smarter is being done Don't mess that thing up. I think there's a little bit more a little bit more affinity from the technology side I might be wrong, but I have feeling it's like it's a little bit less dumb. Whereas the Whereas the FCC I mean just I actually appreciate the fact that people are throwing in 500,000 fake comments because it demonstrates What an idiotic system it is in the first place. I'm on their side on in that case So I don't you know, I'll happily write that script myself to demonstrate what an idiotic What an idiotic thing it is to have hundreds about I've spoken to people in the government Who are on the other side of that for instance in the department of agriculture and consumer financial protection bureau And they're on the other side of a million comments And there's effectively one and a half full-time people for a limited amount of time tasked with reviewing them They go in and have absolutely no Quantitated information just a bunch of raw text saying every which way and every which thing No validation who it came from or where they are So I mean it's effectively useless and that's next to facilitated rulemaking with 30 lawyers from industry in the room next door So it's like that those are the voices the American people You know degraded and uh and treated with you know, no respect and then I answered you've basically given me enough to answer my question There you are. I want to try just a couple more quick ones. You know about co-digital No Okay, co-digital is a prioritization thing which is which does pair pair comparisons Do you prefer this option or that option? It's similar to Paul us in the sense that anybody participating can offer an item in an item Put a number of pair wise pair wise. I'm doing all our ideas There what all our ideas? I don't know that is that another similar it is another pair wise. Um, I you know, it's just a different. Um, it's a different Let's see. I'll paste that in here too. Uh, I don't favor those personally I have incredibly biased and you shouldn't listen to me But I think they uh, I think they're a little bit flavorless because what you end up with is you end up with like red or green Red or yellow yellow or blue and then it's like and then it's converging And so the the user ends up doing like yellow or or or a yellow or b yellow or c yellow or d yellow or e And as I'm yes, I'm not thinking I'm not thinking of them as necessarily opponents of each other No, no, no, I mean I'm thinking that there's potential to invest between them Yeah, there's then they serve different purposes and I wanted to sort of talk around in that space, but there's No, no, they they do. Yeah, I do have a but they those um Those are really effective if you're looking for one best answer or or to try to converge on a series of best of best answers As opposed to trying to converge on Try to converge on on a on a landscape They these are not quite as effective at the landscape, but we're we're weak if if the um If the desire is like a like a a discreet outcome I will poke poke around more with you in that when I visit on the 28th. Okay excellent, uh Paulus, I understand in the fields of opinion that are given There are some outliers who are not really part of any of these groups uh, I'm wondering if you would ever think of doing on Doing something to explore them. There's a What is it called? Uh participant not Shoot there's a there's a specific process that focuses on people have creative solutions That are outside the norm And how to spread those creative Identifying those people and spreading their things into the society um Dissidents positive positive this Is a positive Sure, Audrey, you know that uh positive positive. What a positive deviance there is positive deviance positive deviance And I will look into that And it feels like there's that that there is some potential synergy with the pauless outliers that are not specifically collections of dissent or collections of agreement They're They're have a uniqueness Which may or may not be fruitful and i'm curious given that you can identify them uh Yes, and the the final thing is one of my focuses in my efforts to be We're more inclusively wise is people have concerns and addressing those concerns Uh Has the power to make a solution better. It's a part of what I was thinking Was if there is ever when you have something which is 95 percent agreement What are the concerns of the people who have five? Who who are part of the disagreeers right the way in which you are focused you focus attention on things that are nearly complete consensus And I go that's a really valuable place to be and if you want to up it Why did those people you know and look right could there be some way where Paulists could branch out at that point or those particular kinds of questions where another polis is created About that item It is focused on concerns I will kick it back to augury, uh, and that that is a uh a good place a good place to pick up Fruit uh for all of you as that is like that is just about where we leave off in terms of Producing a landscape, but not necessarily having an opinion of what of what it's next, you know What is next destination is so yeah, well, I'm just I just realized you could do this with a group set aside and say Okay group work on this, but you could also have polis Be fractal, you know so that the polis process starts over from a point in the polis process I think I think augury. I think you would find augury and I both agree. Um, I I could definitely speak for myself with many conversations in this uh in this Realm of where you start you could see in the conversation in um in bowling green They started the most general then there's another fractal layer of like, uh opioids versus like traffic versus education and then within each one of those you could drill down. Um, okay, great figuring out what what that landscape is you know More and more granularity There's different tools in different processes and we haven't quite figured out Other than just starting another one throwing it out there based on you know Based on the information is uh, but I know that talk to taiwan has done that. Um, in in various cases They've thrown out thrown out a second conversation. So So hopefully 28th, I will understand enough to have an intelligent conversation with you on that Feel free to reach out and I'm happy to send over a few more links Okay, great. Okay. All right. Thanks everyone. Great. See you Thanks for joining us. Cheers. Nice meeting you Okay So, yeah, um, just just logistics, uh for for the day that were supposed to me face to face I I have selected a a place is teco Seattle teco is like a consulate setting And the meeting room should be large enough. Uh, and we have booked 10 As a half half past 10 All the way to 7 p.m And it's I'm not saying I mean you have a tom have a preference of very long Meetings and so we've uh, maximized the meeting time, but there is no obligation for you to stay the whole way You have to do other things there. Whoa You're saying I could have the whole day or you're saying Yes, yes We're in the day, you know, no, no because because I I literally delayed My flight because of this like I I go back to taiwan one day later So there's no meetings scheduled for that day but The the structure would be um, I think in the 10 Half past 10 to noon Because we also have deputy minister of science and technology as well as other people from the taiwan delegate We we start with a brief overview of The the past the current Application the full is especially the the ones that are just recently being summarized such as the ones calling uh surface here because there's lots of english material that wasn't Produced because the crowd just wasn't large enough for this kind of material to surface And so I think it would be great to go over those materials Or is that I want to delegate as well and basically a very large, um show and tell question and answer Um format and then uh starting from lunch We delve into much deeper topics of of governance and the future So if you're okay with that you're of course welcome to join at any particular point Okay, so this is this is a structured conversation You have you have already that is covering a lot of ground that I want to Cover and I can join in that It's a draft that I I came up like 10 or 15 minutes ago So, uh, you you have plenty of plenty to revise that if you prefer a different It's not as if you know, I show up like in these calls and we talk about whatever You know, you need to have a structure There's two there's two broad segments right the past and current is the first half And uh future is the other seven hours Yeah, but but the seven hours is a very long time and we can fractalize it however we want Uh, okay, so I will I will lower in priority the questions that I have on future Uh Because that's that's future in terms of larger outreach into the larger Yes, yes, yes, and and the and the governance of the technology itself uh-huh Now that's governance of governance of pauless or governance of the Of pauless of pauless, but pauless now work in conjunction with many other technologies And so and so we can talk about many other technologies as well. It doesn't have to be digital technologies There are a bunch of people who want to combine Some form of this with a random sample voting Which is again a way to cryptographically or mathematically protect against The various attacks you you just mentioned And still have the representative fragment Or parts of the society to be able to deliberate and vote based on CDC principles and Are could be more more binding the the reference here is Called you count, but there's many other Things that are in the same domain Okay, yeah any any links to Initiatives or methodologies that you Think you'll be talking about that I should educate myself on to be able to participate on a more Generic rather than just my own past And questions like familiar territory would be useful and I'll try and Get up the data before I show up Okay um Downshifting for a moment to the um Government Yes model Who is currently of these functions people holding these functions? Who are currently most supportive of the kind of Engagement Public and stakeholder engagement perspectives that you represent By far the president Okay Yeah So if they're the next question because I've watched this elsewhere If the president is replaced by somebody who is less sympathetic does this whole thing get wiped out or how does What's what's the what's the resilience in a quasi-democratic scenes we've got You know, and what what is the vulnerability? of each Taiwan Getting overturned by right, right. So, um the structure the participation of this is the the online platforms petition platform referendum platform And so on they are variously defined by regulations and laws The the national referendum act which just passed a couple months ago Is binding because it's a parliament saying so if you want to overturn that it takes Again a majority vote in the parliament Many other things like the e petition and the participation officer network are defined in the regulation level So technically a new president can just cancel them So there are two levels, right? If it's um at the the law level Then the president has to go Through a lot of hoops to council it because it's a very firm structure Basically, we would say it's part of democracy And at that level we have the national referendum act We hope to soon have the digital communication act, which is like the embodiment of Um v taiwan spirit Uh by explicitly defining what a multi-stakeholder Um consensus gathering participatory platform is and the very important note That it doesn't have to be controlled by the government the government should be Uh supportive of any multi-stakeholder initiative that are cross sectors. And so so this is again a draft stage Uh, but the referendum act is already already firmly here At the regulation stage Uh, we have Uh the various the the po's are are in this level the e petitions are in this level Uh, and uh very soon, uh, I think yeah, we'll we'll we actually revised the e petition Lost, uh, sorry regulations so that it links to the to the po's and so these two are now linked Um, and there's a counterpart like the open data and everything which are all in this level um And so so there's many regulations as well as the government digital service Um principles that gd sp which are again in draft stage That again defines a stakeholder involvement at the very beginning as a core component for any digital service So there's this mutually supporting cloud of regulations and one of the the current v taiwan topics is how much or how How deep should we lift? Parts of these things into a separate law or or shouldn't we and so that's one of the ongoing v taiwan Conversation, yeah, that's the current status in terms of how to Protect it internally by law Is your main strategy at this point so that it would be very difficult for a new president To it's not necessarily impossible because president What traditionally has a majority party? support um but So part of part of me goes, I'm very happy to see that the kinds of thinking that's going on there And it occurs to me that the visibility and logic, you know, you know the the narrative the narrative that this is a Participatory way to bring sanity to governance processes at all levels Feels like whatever could be done to support that in the public's mind You know how much of this is made public a la the mclean's magazine Whatever so that The public demands this and would never stand for any president to change it Also amongst stakeholders, you know, I don't know to what extent There's that's where the engi begins to cross over Emerging that we're governance initiative because they're trying to Have stakeholders per se identify as a as a A governing force And of self aware, you know with stakeholders in one area are in fact similar to stakeholders in another area Collectively and that their interests are served by having certain things happening And their interests are undermined by other things happening So that's a That's a piece. I wanted to just toss into the Into the mix right right, uh, however the po's are not just po's right. They're also senior public servants Uh, and so senior executives And their career public servants so My main strategy Is Based on the fact that Like our current president is what in the second year of a traditionally a year term Well, two four year terms, uh, but which leaves us about six years to develop this model Under the current cabinet And so within the six years Those senior executives who are our first batch of po's who are very much starting They're mostly in their 40s and 50s They will race to to deputy minister level within the six yes, so the traditional Under a minister there are traditionally two to three deputy ministers And it is traditional to have one politically appointed deputy minister and one Deputy minister that is a senior executive And in larger ministries it may be two and one or one and two And so by having senior executives as po's We're betting that 60 years down the road. Many of them will be in the General secretary for their ministry level or many of them will be even Deputy minister level, uh, and they will again support this methodology from within the career public service Teslas Yeah, I would that would be very encouraging except i'm living the Where the trump administration is tearing apart the foundations of all the departments You know basic principles removing people right and left including career people, you know, so but there's a There's many different approaches to handling your handling it really well and some approaches But there's some there's some really horrible possibilities that are That are sitting there, but we don't have to Be preoccupied with that but I would in terms of In terms of from my perspective in terms of the importance of this kind of process or um I mean my the world language I want to have is for the survival of the human race It's like it gets to that level Uh, it's not just the day-to-day functioning thing. There's a much bigger thing going on To have this kind of process um made as Invulnerable as possible and part of becoming invulnerable is being able to constantly change in response to what's going on You already have a lot of that Tremendously admire Anyway, so So i'm going to leave. Thank you very much for allowing me to uh jump in here And tom if you need to use my zoom give me a call. I mean, it's just the two of you No So far, right. It'll be a little bit that nine o'clock our time. Um, martin will come on wonderful Oh, that's great because he has his own things he wants to talk about too. So that's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that It was it was a real privilege uh participating in this and it's exciting to watch Thank you. Nice. Thank you. Yeah, cheers Uh Okay, here we are again um Yeah, there was one one very detailed thing there was one point in the last uh The last tape I think it was where I think the phrase say name and tech line to point out controversial points Does that communicate anything? Is that does that sound like something you would have said? That you could articulate What it means? Maybe it's tagline Name and tagline to point out controversial points to point out I don't have a transcript yet for the second conversation. Yeah, that's right. Um, It sounds more like a shoo-yong thing, but if I if I said that Yeah, right, but but but if I said that I mean, um, the the the main idea And I I'm just filling in sure I was mine in this simulation in my brain here If I if I said that challenge, you know, uh, it would be um more of like the um the kind of Focus level or function level raising uh interventions that mickey was saying our first Conversation it is by pointing out Uh a a problem statement or a quick um summary of what the main Contention point and therefore conflict resolution point are to all the participants involved and we In the vetoing process it is essential that we surface this tension if there is tension begin with um in the in the title uh and the tagline And the description Right Of the of the issue of the whole issue Yeah, so of the whole issue. So um if we go to v type one and um See the issues. Yeah Like the tagline of the data integration is how do we make use make full use of data? Um along with the public service and uh, uh tagline for Uh, that's that's a question. Is the tagline basically a question? I mean, it is a provocation Is a is a provocation, right? So the sharing economy is the the provocation is is yours? Is is theirs? Is there a mine? What is uh ownership in the platform economy? uh, and So so it's a it's a provocation Usually is a question though that may have other things also, but the the question or the other things are intended to Provoke a little more complex thinking Yes, so so so the the idea is that instead of people just looking at the title and um, you know coming up with It was lower level. Um associations We start the associations by provoking people to think along the main controversial and conflict resolution minds Okay, thank you very much. Mm-hmm. That makes sense oh And I love that That's another way of doing creating brilliant questions. I mean the sense of questions I think we discussed this when we talked to mickey, you know, my view is questions point to a space To a specific answer but to a space of inquiry and this is questions pointing to a space of controversy Without saying one way or another what's supposed to happen with it, but just sort of stirring up the energy That's right There was an open space. I was part of where the first The morning of the first five days Wasn't was a world cafe Where the question was what question if dealt with here really well would change everything And that's very big cafe went through like three rounds and then there was lunch There's no sense of trying to find the answer There was lunch and then after lunch they opened the space. I thought that was such a brilliant design Everybody was all stirred up Okay, so Yeah, a few things on the way you You operate um I'm sort of alluded to it earlier the sense that you you are definitely for um What's the name for putting everything out there uh Ready for transparency transparency right um transparency is different from uh Different from but internally weighted to accessibility And it's different from an internally weighted to public knowledge Uh, so there's a sense of having Things posted on a website With it freely available how to look at it anybody who's interested Uh, there is the dimension. I'm think putting that as a a low level of this high High level thing and then the next one is the live streaming of process where people can see the raw thing unfolding In real time and comment on it, you know, it's a I think you said many times you have chat function Accompanied live stream. That's right. It's two way and then but the people have to sign into the live stream have to be the kind of people who are aware of live streams are very different from what happened with mclean's Canadian tv which was a broadcast Here is here is a channel that people are and i'm not saying tv channel all that was true But here's a there is a media channel Through which information is always flowing to people and this thing is now being put out over that channel So many people who are tuned in to that particular channel see it and i'm thinking of mass media not of the You know smaller Well, you can emulate chat room from mass media by posting as we do a A QR code or a sms number or whatever Over the as they overlay so that people know they can just text To this number or to open this particular link and then enter the more interactive space is what i'm saying I wasn't even thinking interactive at this on this level. I was thinking of you know, this is at four o'clock Thursday this interaction between these people will be Will be available on I don't know what your stations are we have 300 different channels, but if there's some major ones, you know, here's the Here's the major broadcast channel that you don't have to subscribe to you get it automatically with your tv Uh, and there's like 10 of those so they The nbc abc you know kind of Fox news whatever the font those channels to have something go out over that Uh, there's another layer of public accessibility because people are already Engaged with those realms And who not I think an awful lot of live streaming is either young people who are very tech acclimatized or um The geek world Right, right, right. I hardly ever witness live streaming. I'm a different person No, no, but but you do have like c-span, right? So there is like dedicated channel for public Metis very few people watch c-span Okay, do that and it's very and it's and it's very the design is horrible. There's very often One congressperson will be speaking to an empty hall Um for their constituents not really because it's anything terribly meaningful. It's a It has a reputation for being really boring and only policy geeks ever watch it Okay, but I'm not I'm not thinking of that, but I'm thinking of like what happened with mclean's uh Here's a major newspaper or not. There's a little newspaper newspaper magazine Uh, every country has their major things some to certain extent communities have those things and people Get them free or subscribe to them, but they're different from The live stream channels I don't know again. I feel like am I am I just this old 71 year old guy who's talking to stuff that doesn't exist no matter anymore Right, right. I see where you're you're getting at it is it is more about accessibility But with a journalistic ish lens Or context where people are expecting to read about public affairs instead of gossiping In the first place and therefore more ready in a state of mind to to engage into public affairs so it is about a a media that has a inherent frame of public affairs And current affairs so to speak rather than dedicated like c-span to particular functions of the government Right, and there's there's there are branches of that. There's the journalistic branch Which is is it covered by media? Those are the things that are going on part of the daily news In uh, taiwan, you know, so the v taiwan activities Are they being covered by the daily news so that Most of the population knows at least that it's going on and that has. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, but but only for Like really controversial issues will the journalists devote extra time but uh, at least the the cna on the National news agency, which is part of the public So the cna is is the the central news agency And they do send out announcements of the upcoming not just v taiwan conversations, but Really any conversation that we really want? mass awareness And they also run more detailed conversations Such as there's a one where they interview me for half an hour summarizing the recent conversation Autonomous vehicles on v taiwan and on joint platforms and in the format of a interactive dialogue and Over the past few days it's been syndicated by pretty much all the mass media Here in taiwan. So so so there is this broadcast channel, but we we use that to to summarize Conversations we don't use that to recruit people at this point because for that particular conversation. It's well past its Regulatory pre announcement period. It's going to be in the parliament next week anyway, or in a few weeks I could see I mean, that's the retroactive having proactive Efforts and I don't know it feels like there's your work overlaps so much with the gov zero world whether the gov zero the people in gov zero As a movement that's trying to have an impact might see proactive coverage By various public media Yes, publicly viewed media as something to Find new ways to do and to actively promote because That will ultimately secure And advance the kind of thing that they've been developing That's right. And and we we try to to very selectively promote Things because you know for things like uber at the the inside taiwan is aware of it but for things like the hengchun hospital case or the honhu marine preservation park case by by nature only People in the neighborhood care a lot about it. And so so we try to leverage the stakeholder network because For e-petition, it's easier because by definition. They already amassed about 5000 people So if we set the messages right those 5000 people will become the seed in which the word of mouth as well as popular media, of course spread the News that there's going to be a conversation about it. If it doesn't come from e-petition We are we're pretty selective. We only do it if the stakeholders we think are not reached By the existing snowballing survey And that there are parts of taiwan that we're missing And we have to go through mass media to to do that and the reason we do this is because For things like autonomous vehicles It's much easier if we actually have a self-driving Trace cycle for example for people to play with and then come up with informative Um the questions and answer Recruiting you're thinking of recruiting participants in the process Yes, yeah, I'm I'm having a different agenda which is embedding The vital nature and vital necessity of such processes in the public mind Oh, yeah, but but that's that's that's more the I mean the the national reform forums on pension reform on judicial reform on That there's this also national forum on on the future of the the cultural white paper And so so all these national forums Have a lot of visibility on mass media already and because they are There's a huge amount of regional platforms for this kind of design They also get people more chance to participate Face-to-face and so that's already going on. So which is why we don't Raise more awareness of this more multi stakeholder model because that the more I wouldn't say CDC but hybrid model has been already going on and it's on everybody's mind Yeah, I would I would be interested in a in a survey on That had had to do it was a public standard public opinion poll That had to do with um to what extent do you know about value whatever various parameters on the public participation for the Stakeholder participation in the creation of our governance on Something that that finds out how many people were aware there was actually a funny downside example or this this Comedian the news comedian from the us who went to moscow to interview What's this face the Ever snow day. Yeah, it was snowden Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, I watched that. Yeah, it's a very uh visceral illustration of snow days points Well, it was there was the one point I wanted to mention was his his uh He had gone around boston asking people if they knew what Edward snowden was And most of them at least in his sample didn't know And snowden was really thrown by that because he just totally turned his life upside down in order to You know make this known and he thought his name would be known by everybody You know about it. It's a it's a it's a filter bubble, but um, yeah, uh, but So but back back to the national forums What what i'm saying is that all these forums are are bootstrapping The judicial reform forum for example has one of its resolution that uh, this the the process of the implementation of the consensus point need to be publicly tracked and Accountable online and one of the other uh things is so accountability um And another thing is that there's going to be a more regular participatory process of the judicial yuan and the other um judicial Forms and part of the it is the citizen's jury, which we didn't have Uh, and uh, so what i'm saying is that I mean not with jury as a public issue thing, but it's jury in trial jury that work with the judges. Yeah So we don't have that system. And so as part of the resolution we're introducing Some forum of that system. So what i'm saying is that always when in those forums where there is a majority component Of of citizen participation or citizen constituents In the forum, we almost always see the resolutions Bootstrap itself by defining more forms of participation down the road And and that's been true for pretty much all the national forums Okay, so that's what I didn't get what you meant by bootstrapping, but I get I get that each each one is uh, and initiating a Further further spread of that particular approach Do it, uh-huh Okay, there's another interesting thing approach that is inspired by a mixture of mclean's and And the and the canadian broadcasting and And reality tv Which is the idea of having a dramatic Presentation of a real life Deliberation public deliberation Which is sort of what mclean's and canadian tv did. I mean it went over, you know, two and a half days But they did an excellent editing job Where they talk about conflict cells In the media. Well, there's different ways to approach conflict and what there's a very dramatic story in the mclean's Because it's an intense conflict But the conflict Is something else is done with the conflict and is usually done in the reality tv shows So there's one of when martin gets on one of the projects he wanted to talk with you about and See if you might be interested in relating to it some way was a thing for in germany of having a on Civic council like has done in austria On a topic that's been in a major city and They would do coverage of it dramatically and In the outcome whatever the recommendations were They would then in a positive deviant style look for who is handling That well and do further coverage of those people As a and it has no official On it has no official Approval or sponsorship. It is just a tv show But it is it is uh, and it's not Journalism in a traditional sense because it's it's designed to to sell rather to report on To sell the idea to engage people It's actually another another approach Yeah, this is this is very fruitful. Thank you. Yeah, um, yeah, I don't think We have any television shows Designed for that the the watch out group has done a lot of interactive Fiction and even games for that, but it's not on a tv setting. It's on a computer setting It's on the internet setting But I imagine they have similar goals and I'll be very happy to explore this this branch Okay, great Uh unquestion I had about this Stakeholders versus citizens and the legislative versus ministries whatever uh, it felt like My impression is historically the sunflower movement Was about deliberating about a law which was going to be the the pact the trade pact with china uh and That was a taking that was taking over the citizens were taking over not only the legislative physical space but the legislative function At that time and saying look we can do this really well as citizens on and sort of putting you know Putting the legislature to shame and getting them to start engaging more citizens whatever and that's that's the Genesis of v taiwan is in that experience And that now what I gather from you and and shuyang is the It's around an 80 20 of well regulations 80 percent regulation kind of stuff 20 percent legislative which is a How did what's the track of evolution? That resulted in the shrinkage of legislative attention Uh and the expansion of regulatory attention in the process Right, so um the person who came to the camp zero hackathon and proposed a v time project Is administered with the portfolio for cyberspace and legal offense? Uh, and so minister jekyll and sign and so because of the of her position Um by necessity, uh, we need to tackle more administrative rather than MPs Visions there are many other Movements out of the sunflower movement v taiwan is just one out of maybe 200s but uh So the the civil constitutional reform The one that I just did a very quick summary on is one of the consensus points of the sunflower occupy And so that branch of people Uh and composed of um again like very high overlap, but but they're they're of a more fundamental Like constitutional rewrite Aspiration aspiration, that's the word, uh, we will want to continue to move power Like this way, uh, but by nature of jekyll and sign Position at its time, uh, it necessarily moved, uh, kind of back this way Right, and and there's many other Movements and sub movements. There's a um new party ish Saying that came out of the occupy, but it fragmented into the new power party and socialist democrats And um again these two all carry the basic Consensus items of the sunflower occupy. They need to be brought together with pauless Right, uh, and and they're all aware they're all aware We are all aware of what what each other is doing actually But but by nature if a new party is formed like the new power party they now are the third largest who was just five seats In the in the parliament of 135 i think So the npp's are done by necessity Doing their work within the parliament But however the the social democrats who didn't win any single seat Are now working on a much more grassroots organization and You know citizens assembly but on a township level thing At a moment Then and gov zero again is is The the tools we use are and and contribute our all open source So you see parts of detail and components in in all these movements But but we don't actually have control over any of it But many part of them just drop by our weekly Meetups and and share their experiences. So so it is by necessity Not not not a lot of cohesion because the vital players are all on different positions now Okay, well, that's thanks for complexifying my thinking No, yeah, but yeah, it's reality Hopefully not over the non-linear history. I was going, huh, how did this How did this linear history happen? You're going? Well that linear history didn't happen. There's much more non-linear history that happened Oh, and that's yeah, so so so my my role my role Again as a public servant of public servants It is basically to to reduce fear uncertainty and doubt Of the professional senior executive career public servants because during the occupiers There's really a lot of FUD going on of of what occupy actually means Within the public service and so by having a occupier as the digital minister who Say, you know, I'm not asking you to do anything and facilitating you to to realize your potential as public servants We're we're reforming the effect the feelings of the public service Around the word participation And so I see that as my main role and and there's many other roles being played by many other players Yes, yes, yes Huh, thank you um I am learning so much not just of the specifics, but of the The nature of the complex realities which you're The taiwan's is only one but I I uh I tend to be Usefully reductionist but still reductionist and a variety of my work and you help helping me balance that The realities you deal with I had I had was kind of having a conversation with one of my other Board members a couple years ago who had spent two years in china mainland china doing the teaching english But engaging a lot with the students And one of the things that she introduced me to was the mandate of heaven logic. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah and I began to think what an interesting relationship could be painted between public part sophisticated public participation on regimes And the mandate of heaven mythos Because without giving up power You can access what the people want and then do it for them by using these participatory processes and i'm wondering from your proximity to that worldview If you have any thoughts about oh, that's a good idea or no that wouldn't work or you haven't thought of these seven things or whatever Whatever you might do with that. I'm just curious If well, certainly, um, I mean the the confused confucius or If you're talking about mandate of heaven is uh equally menaceous Thinking um, it is what we call uh mean button or or right citizen based It is not democratic because It is not the rule of the people It is based on people and so so The ruler of the confucius Um conversation is at the best philosopher kings Um, but it is not voted Um, there is no mentioning of voting of any kind Um in the menaceous confucius tradition, right? And so I understand that and i'm not i'm not Voting has a very Minor place in my own ideology. I'm just curious Given given the chinese Some the communist chinese structures, which are I'm aware that they are hanging behind Hanging in your background The very dominant way there could be things that could happen that would be very messy for taiwan But within the world of Uh of china where there's a lot of interest apparently In democratic reforms, but not democracy the way the west practices it And I go this is democracy in a way that's different from the west way the west practices it What would it be like would would this be a A meme that's a selling point for Chinese people who try to preserve the chinese system. Well, I am So so i'm uniquely not qualified as a political analyst of Of the communists china Just because of my position, uh, but uh, I think brawley speaking, uh They they also had their constitutional reform not not too many, um months ago And their constitutional reform are straight So so in taiwan jang hashek did the same thing he amended The the legal system so that he can be the president forever And so so we saw that dynamic happening Back when jang hashek was still ruling and jang hashek also used a lot of confucius And especially wang yangming terminologies to paint himself as the sarge That is the lighthouse tower whatever That embodies the the heavens mandate and In a quote-unquote democracy Setting that allows him to uniquely reflect the will of the people We we have all this before in taiwan. So the rhetoric I would say is very It's very similar to say at least and uh, right It's also unreal if we know that this is a falsehood. This is a A myth in the negative sense and I I wouldn't I wouldn't go so far. I say it's a myth though because Even though jang hashek, um I mean he has to link to the word democracy just as Um, the communist party has to link to lenin's centralized democracy or democratic Uh centralization, right? So, um that the word Maybe you you would feel um distorted Are still popularized because of this rhetoric and so the younger generation raised with the word Um democracy and rule of the people and so on Soon discovers once they have free access to information Well, what these words really mean and I would also argue that it then Makes the occupy or the few the further Uh democratization processes Uh much more legitimate because they are using They could they could claim that they are implementing a better Um implementation of the core ideas that are propagated by the myths And and I think this is a important part of the the dynamic to the distortions that you mentioned because we see this dynamic in south korea as well in in the democratization of the the asian countries mm-hmm so there's both a myth of bastardized myth of democracy and a A myth of the mandate of heaven, which uh is Is used to often justify uh Rule that is not in any way wise or representative of the public will uh, and this is a um From my perspective, this is a realization this within a top-down structure If the top-down structure that has no voting in it or hard Or deep power posing with the top-down structure is established in a way that that Seeks the will of the people through deliberative activities Of the kind that you and and I are engaged in But that is so you don't have to lose your grip on power. You just have to legitimize it and become Become the representative and empowerment of the wise voice of the people Anyway, I just I was curious It is it is a so so yes, I I'd completely agree and um That the four pillars of open government are called four pillars It precisely because there's tremendous tension between those those values one can use For example transparency and accountability To establish this kind of mandate of heaven by saying that a a ruler You know shares all the information with people and so on and use participation as an instrumental means not a value in itself, uh, and Therefore achieve a a a fake inclusion at So basically having accountability bastardized in a very top-down way and then Leveraging all these techniques or technologies, but only when convenient Then and we see this configuration a lot actually in Like dictatorship to democracy transitions In East Asia and sometimes it's a recession. So, um, yeah, I would say that We which is why I put trust in in the center and have those four pillars as the service of the trust Because I I think it could flow both ways this way, but that's because I'm a a Taoist rather confusion And but right. So so it's a different philosophical configuration as well. It's what I'm saying That's an interesting choice and you're putting trust in the middle of it Uh I said one of the things that don't don't change the screen. One of the things that uh came up during your last little speaking Was the difference if you have top-down power Uh There are There are status rewards to that and there are And there are Just psychological having power over some people's psychologies Our power. Yes. Yes. Uh, and And there's also this, you know, like financial material material benefits kind of power on and it feels like the The king or dictator Can satisfy their, you know Ceremonial status live in Great wealth, whatever kinds of interests Without basically Corrupting the system where it matters for other people. It doesn't cost a lot to support a king, for example Not at all. Not at all. Society So you could have a king that was the embodiment of or for a You know Yeah, yes, and then you are back to the expense through tourism. For example after Of the monarch If you have if if you have One quarter of one percent is support of the budget of the country is supporting the monarch and all the rest is fulfilling the ideals of the people And the people you have the idealized mandate of heaven situation On where the ruler Is ruling through the guidance of the people And you know, this is the this is the Taoist leader. I guess even more Here we as well. Yes, but it is themselves. But or anyway, so that's right, right, right? But that's the constitutional monarchy constitutional monarchy idea and it's no because I'm I'm removing the voting Right. I'm removing that the I'm saying that this is an inspired. I think in the history of Greece There was a one of the the rulers the top-down rulers Initiated the democratic original democratic forms. Oh, yeah along somebody and and That kind of leader who establishes a new order That is that is to maintain somebody at the top in power, but their hold on power is Anyway, we can set that aside. Those are philosophical story interesting things. I just realized that for me the thing that's in the middle Is the wisdom factor I know it's trust is easier to define and Sense and measure and yeah The wisdom the wisdom thing is priority for me because the nature of Our decisions in terms of their wisdom or folly Decide given the given the level of power humanity now has Uh, we can easily destroy ourselves in any one of one or one or two dozen major ways All of which are proceeding in the wrong direction And so I go what is if we if we could have a philosopher king that would do the job I go let's go for the philosopher king and offload the Democracy part of it. So the democracy is not my central value But I think the systems are so complex That having multiple viewpoints being integrated Somehow has to be part of the puzzle In order to make wise decisions and I know there's no There's no measure. So I have this definition of You know taking into account what needs to be taken into account for long term broad benefit. That's my And of course all those are debatable just like equality is debatable and justice is debatable But they are you know north stars to shoot for and to know that certain ways of doing things systematically Disable your ability to take into account what needs to be taken into account and other ways will Increase your ability to do that And if you're always recognizing you're going to miss things all the time Not taking into account certain things. So you make your process iterative So it's picking up the things you missed rather than trying to suppress the things you missed It's a lot of different things that can go into that But I realize participation includes an accountability and transparency all serve my goal But it's fascinating you put trust in the middle. It's something to to meditate on it's much more grounded In the people who are living through it Right, I think wisdom in my mind is a Like a a regulatory idea like Emmanuel Kant like reason you know Our critical thinking or critical appreciation or aesthetics It we need to hold out in our minds to even begin to to move to make moves But they're not Like sustainable development goes there. They're not to to be Quantified along the path. They're like no stars exactly as as you mentioned Which is why it's not usually appearing in in in these diagrams that I draw draw because A regulatory idea necessarily Is a regulatory idea So regulatory idea is a philosophical idea of of Emmanuel Kant Just to let you know, I have not philosophically trained at all. So, right, right. And so So the basic intuition is that So to quote Kant and even if there has never existed A sincere a completely sincere friend sincerity in friendship Is an idea that is still required for friendships to to even form So so that's the kind of regulatory idea. Thank you You have to hold it in your mind to engage in a process But with the complete awareness that it it can't be ever attained in its pure form And it's not even directly measurable You can't just look at a pair of friends and say, you know, it's their sincerity ratio You know dwindling or or increasing because it's just a regulatory idea We can always try and measure them, but they're not measurable really No, you can measure a lot of proxies, but then but then it becomes It's proxies like how transparent how inclusive how participatory and so on Yeah, so I and I'm My inquiry The wise democracy pattern language is trying to look at What are The dimensions that I can see the different the different things that would need to be addressed or taken into account While you're holding this wisdom regulatory idea At a governance level This is not the wisdom of individuals. This is this is the wisdom the wisdom of crowds not Not like the book says but real wisdom Of the whole how to act with my my way of saying is how to how to call forth and And access and engage the wisdom and resourcefulness of the whole on behalf of the whole So those and I look that's part of the way I think and when I look at what you're doing I go this This gal's doing it, you know so and that's I'm just curious how Like this I have a they have this page on the sources sources of wisdom that apply here And there's there were nine of them and it's not the nine. It's just nine that I could frame and pull out but they suggest From that perspective they suggest different uh Ways to do things or or tweak things that you already have going uh It's like one of one of the sources of wisdom is the holistic and systemic sciences It's like systems thinking and ecology Yeah, complexity theory uh, the people who study these have a You might have call it knowledge without portfolio Crosses over all sorts of other things implicitly because you're studying basic structures of how the world's put together And for example in a polys on a polys exercise to be able to include People like that be able to include ethicists to be able to include people who Understand the common ground among all the world's religions You know People who have deep time perspectives into the past and the future Whatever, uh Some shamans thrown into the mix, you know, it's like how do you? The difference so different sources of wisdom people who embody those different sources of wisdom What would happen if you put a hundred of them into any given polys? Mm-hmm bring their perspective into that and they are throwing their items into the mix. They are doing on different Different items agree disagree. They are adding a Wisdom dimension that wouldn't necessarily be there by only picking the stakeholders Okay. Yes, I completely agree so that's that's an example of an an intervention that's specifically designed because of the wisdom factor Which would normally not normally be put in there if you don't have that in mind So let's do that I was even thinking you could have your stable of Of a hundred or 200 people from whom you would pick for any given polys you could pick people out of that stable to Like you could People to advise the citizen limited counsel to they the liberation should have that dimension also Which they often You can solve a problem for now and it may be totally harmful to the seven generation after us, you know Yeah, yeah, I think that's differently. Um So so the takeaway one of the takeaways of previous conversation is is Um the scope of of time, right? We talk about Seven generations, but also Existential threats to even have seven generations down about That requires decisive collective action. And so It I mean these two are are not antithesis of each other. These two are just different zooming levels of existential timeframe and I think one part of it is that To be inclusive by necessity For example, say there's a teenager somewhere who just saw polis this kind of game and they just voted and contributed one statement but by nature of highlighting the statement and sending our invitations for them to join a face-to-face more deliberative setting and Also by making available the methodology and toolkits and so on that participant has the the potential to be empowered and To take this thinking this wisdom oriented thinking and be more inclusive in their self-organization in their schools or whatever as well. And that's another dimension that I'm Very focused on is the public Co-learning effect Of this kind of rippling out. So Whereas many other players in the current island political realm Kind of think in a more like we need a constitutional reform in the next few years Time frame I always think of the the next Generation, but I think there's nothing fundamentally Different or opposite in the ways that we approach things. It's more of the different way that we frame things. Yeah You mean we being everybody or you and me. Which which is the week? What's the week? We the Wisdom factor as you said It's worth keeping in mind to think long term more holistically, but it doesn't prevent us from doing short-term interventions As needed as long as there is a a mind to work Continuing the conversation unnecessarily controlled by the current people who hold the convention. It is what I mean Yeah, there's this thing of think globally and act locally Thank you. Yeah, right right, but in a time long term and think we're on the back now Right exactly. Exactly. Yes. That that's the the idea. So so yeah the creative process starts now that is infinite in scope Your focus I would say there's an 80 20 thing. It feels like the 80 the 80 is on Well, it's not your decision to do it. That's part of what's intriguing to me. There's a dance between Intentional design and emergent design And your You have an 80% didn't emergent 20 intentional design thing going on in what you're doing for all I can tell If not 90 10 or something, I don't know In terms of addressing I guess I should just say what are your What are your thoughts the fact that you talk about existential threats? You're very aware of that Dimension and what's going on there Uh, yeah, and that's my center of gravity totally Uh, there's a way in which I could care less whether we can get our act together locally If we can just handle those because if we don't handle those local semi irrelevant So How do you Yeah, and for me there's there's there is a different ratio. There's more because Because there's so many emergent dynamics that are on That counter Taking those things seriously Some based on the way we have evolved as human beings, you know the limits The limits and urges we have as human beings will often Channel us towards short term immediate kinds of solutions Which is one of the weak points of non-deliberative democracy But I There's a hidden agenda here. There's a way I'm trying to figure out. What is the collaboration what kind of collaboration Makes sense In that realm With you Is that is there is there a An urge in you to do something With that with existential threats That is wise that utilizes your skills and knowledge That's in addition to What you're already doing And maybe you have knowledge about setting up the emergent systems that can actually address that But I would love to be in conversation with you because I have such Gigantic respect for the Intuitional work that you're engaged in and the Daoistic style you Have that you've spread around you That's right. Is there a way to tap that for this other project, you know Yes, so so to to go back to the beginning of your your Paragraph Right the 90 10 thing So I see my main role in the intentionality realm as a Spell checker of sorts So so people do whatever But it needs to not console each other, right? So um, and you need to be coherent Um, you're coordinating and picking up some loose ends and Yeah, so so I am as I said in the first conversation if there's If there's this trash that everybody's too busy to take out. I take it out. It's it's not metaphoric It's it's real and if there's everybody's too hungry. I order pizza and and things like that But I also do it in the in the ideas and narratives level. So um, if there is um, so it's like a A short stop in the baseball game. If there are any uncut Boss that will um threaten the the playing field. I just go and catch it. But otherwise I do nothing. So That's the the basic idea and I think the look for where the balls are falling Right, right exactly and and so so it's not like a traditional architect Where where it holds in her mind um architectural integrity or Conceptual integrity as we say in computer science, but but rather it is uh integrity of the functioning of the system, uh, and is always done in a minimally intrusive way So so that's that's how I see my role. Um, so it's a purely reactive role So if it goes really existential like the occupy the first few days The the cops are are threatening to to go in and Make everybody go away and so on. There's a lot of intentionality in the counter Uh design of the counter surrounding of the cops of the communication of the ask for help and so on But once it's relatively peaceful and self-organizing I go back and doing Things like asking for higher ban with live streaming and things like that So what I'm saying is that it's a proportional to how much existential threat The or the organism is feeling That would determine the intentionality and it is not a Given ratio. So at this point in p this I would am maybe 2 intentional, right? So so that's that's my situation and so back to the planet existential thing Um, I think the the sustainable development goes actually Is a very good example because the the SDGs they kind of Capture the non controversial essence The the parts that none of the country will will fight Over with like everybody kind of agreed that these are important things But again, this is not framed as You know, we have to solve it within the next few years. Otherwise, we better send spaceships out Kind of way it is a more moderate kind of framing of the existential more planetary Issues. Um, but by focusing on SDG 17 Almost exclusively in our work. I think the the same methodology do have potential to escalate into a more direct Like conflict prevention or conflict reducing way and in Taiwan, of course, which is 17 Uh, the 17 is global partnership. Uh, and it focus on things as mundane as Uh, digital opportunity white access to to ICT systems and all the way to strategies and systems to enable cross sectoral On multi stakeholder collaboration. So it is that the most most dynamic of the SDGs and the the one that Basically enables people to focus on particular goals without sacrificing other goals. Uh, it is the the thing that binds the Admittedly very different focus of economic growth and social and environmental growth Together and and so that's the the main position and speaking about or at But in a way that is um, that could be scaled I guess more deeply and more urgently if needs arise. It's just at the moment For example climate change and carbon Um footprint and and like global conflict and and things like that. Uh, we don't yet have a exportable framework for direct action On these things but not because we don't we're not prepared for those things. It's just it doesn't arise naturally in my current position Yeah, I know the This is It's in this direction that I will want to make My contribution to the future conversation in The afternoon and evening conversation in seattle Let me talk about the future It's like What does it mean? What does it mean to apply the knowledge we have? In a way that would allow us to survive Another few millennia at least And part of that is how do we How do we develop the capacity to? iteratively Digest and reframe our experience and our activities Which is what the co intelligence is about you know intelligence about maintaining your internal maps in congruent with the external realities Over and over again learning changing those On wisdom is from my perspective a longer version of that a longer term deeper version of that phenomenon So it is not something you just have it is something you iteratively work on all the time But I'm part of me would love to You and have somebody to Who has the the Taoistic? sensibilities on The closest thing I've come to in a vision of that Well, there's actually one current one than all one is the The idea of a think tank That looks for stuck points or missing Opportunities in existing transformational efforts Where a conversation of some kind from an email to a full-blown major conference on would break the You know who should talk to who? through what medium About what? It would be like acupuncture on the larger transformational movements and and what a a think tank of you know a dozen or 80 people who are constantly looking over the activities of constantly redefined transform at all transformational agents Looking for those stuck points that could be tweaked that's that's the uh That's a vision that I never had I just wrote up a Description of it once not a proposal because I don't know how to I don't know who would support such a thing or how to move With such a thing or even how to actually do it. It's just a vision and the other thing of the ngi The recognition that these and and steve waddell specifically noted the emergence of parallel on of operating multi-network multi-sector multi-stakeholder networks around every one of the Sustainable development goals that's right and The fact that these are already emerging Suddenly there's the the daoist thing of move with the energy that's there There's energy in those on ms3 on networks and the fact that they're struggling to work together because they don't They are they are self-interest and on Own perspective pursuits all these sectors and and Stakeholders their tradition is to work on their thing in their way and pushed their Thing operating on their traditions Oh, hi, martin. Hi. Good morning. We're good evening Good local time good local time Good way to say So let me just finish this and I'll turn it over to you martin, please Move forward. I'll just chime in Oh, dray and martin. It's great to have what a crowd uh Yeah, we earlier earlier had margaret and then she went off so anyway, um so the idea that There is extensive knowledge and expertise and You know know how and how to work together There's technological, you know Digital tech and there's human group interaction tech and all this stuff And those people don't know about that to a very large degree so The helping them gain that knowledge And helping them realize That they are already an emerging form of governance And we're just trying to help them Do that job better And it includes and transcends existing government And part of me feels there are partly from the stakeholder focus There is that you've got that there's there are lessons to be had From your work to bring into that and that collaboration between v taiwan or just you and The engi thing as a way to upscale In a Taoistic way to the whole Whole World Through the networks and helping them be able to do their function well And i'm trying to figure out how to bring the wisdom factor in but the fact that they're multi-sector and multi-stakeholder And trying to collaborate that already covers The number one wisdom generating point I got I figure out how to add in some of the other stuff is icing on the cake With the fact that they're they already cover the ground of things that need to be taken to the count to a certain degree well Anyway, so that's that's going to be one of the you know It's not exactly v taiwan because v taiwan is in terms of leaf taiwan, but the v taiwan sensibilities and approach How can that be woven in with the Emerging network governance thing. I think there's like super high leverage in a realm. That's really hard to figure out where transformational leverage is The kind that we actually need to make it and I don't have no idea whether we'll make it but that's a That's an invitation. I'd like to give to you and to the paul the paul is folks And my last question which just specifically came up in what you were talking about a little bit earlier The people do you take people out of paulis? For the subsequent discussions because of how they responded in paulis Does that ever happen? Well, we we send invitations to people who Achieve a high resonance um in their conversations or Sometimes we just send invitation to everybody who who bothered to When you say high resonance in your conversations, does that mean in paulis? They are saying things that everybody else is saying or something or everybody in a cluster At least is like they are they embody the their statements embody the consensus Of the groups Yeah, that's we do you know, we do say invitations. There's a group. There's a methodology And then I think I've mentioned it to you before That has a group of 10 people who are Who are there's some problem like let's let's solve the housing problem. Okay, so they each these are the 10 people right there One page thing about how to solve the housing problem. Then they read each other's statements And pick one to revise And revise it and they do that iterative process several times and supposedly it moves towards a consensus But at the same time a computer it's all done online Or on in the system the software the computer is tracking Who's Who's uh essay gets picked by the most people And who picks the essay that most of the other people in the group picked And that person is being identified through the whole process And if there's if there's a hundred people like 10 groups of 10 and they're going to make another group of 10 They pick those people from each of the groups That's embodying the group mind for their group And I just realized that you are doing that action and Yeah, um, but to be to be honest, um, it's much easier to just filter out the trolls And send invitation to everybody else Rather than just setting a threshold Which is what we end up doing In the very beginning of the v-time and design we entertained with the idea We were still using forum technology then but the basic idea is the same We identified the ones that are making original contributions Meaning that they they raise points that nobody else has raised and we just invite those people to form a working group It soon becomes difficult to subjectively judge originality And so then we moved to polis And we use resonance right the the general agreement within and globally to surface the agenda And then we we entertain the idea of inviting the people who contribute the most As picked by polis, but then again, we we settled on the The much easier to operate and in reality actually not at all prohibitive way of just filter out the the trolls the The sheer duplicates and the meaningless statements and by anyone who made a contribution at all Which actually worked pretty well, and we do that for petitions as well. So That's our current mode of operation We we are not saying that just by nature of Presenting a statement in a wise way you automatically are identified as a wise person because it turned out it doesn't work that way Because they could just be reading a statement from a magazine and pasting it or whatever, right? And so it's easier if we just invite everybody who is not a troll To the face-to-face Conversations. So so it's it's what actually happened historically, but we did entertain with the idea Interesting. That's part of the intentionality. You're just doing it in a different way now Yeah, because it seems to work and because it's easier Yeah, exactly. It's less energy for everybody, you know involved It's more fun And it's which makes it more fun, right? It's it's not fun to to do tds work but but yeah, if we have more extended ai intelligence or whatever doing the the More complex mode of it and why not so we're still open to other modders. Yeah, okay. Well, I have covered most of the ground that I had and my My uh, there's some things I'm saving off for Seattle but Once again practically every question that I asked Has resulted in a reframing of my understanding so that the question Didn't get Didn't get answered specifically but was it was the wrong question to ask Oh, I see it's never the wrong question. Yeah, that that's what questions are for. Yeah, the question Yeah, just say that it points to the space, right? Right. Sorry. Yes Do you you gave me a more spacious answer than I expected? Yes a bunch of my questions I wanted the final thing I want to ask is when and how do you invite general public to participate in the taiwan Deliberation like paul is I mean I gather you are do the rolling survey which generates more and more stakeholders who should be invited into the participate But is there a general public Root that says hey everybody anybody wants to show up Come on down What what exactly is that, you know Right, so usually it happens During the convergence of the first diamond that the brainstorm By definition is is open to the general public. We just make sure the stakeholders Here are Are okay Here but as I said the cna The central news agency usually sent out a Press release With a link to the current topic So that the general public also has a chance to know that that's that's just what it is Okay, the cna is syndicated by the major newspapers. So that's the brainstorming stage But the invitation so the polis usually is around here, right? But the invitation to the face-to-face meeting that is Everybody from the general public is welcome to participate online But the offline Due to straight constraints and things like that are usually limited to people who have made contributions along the way and as I said Sometimes these people as well as people who offer opinions online are invited to the second diamond But that is not guaranteed. It's maybe why invite for something Right, right, right. Okay, so cna is the is the major Is the Whole thing is happening. So if you right want to come right, right exactly and and we're we're also working I think More with the the speaks persons Team as well as if there's any ministry that is the host of one particular issue then the The media channel of that particular ministry is also leveraged Okay, got it So what are you doing here martin? Anything you'd like to do whatever you'd like to say, I think I'll just chime in here and in the sense that In regard to the public Audrey there are like four items. I thought At least like I would like to raise and see Where we go with them The first one is I have been developing a tv project participation tv project And I'm working with a production company in germany and one in switzerland and last week I shared my excitement about v taiwan and what's going on as a participation as a nation that is is Raising the standards for participation On a national level there we have here in europe some Some local level participation And it seems it's quite new for for many And some do it with reluctance. There's uh tom already mentioned for alberg has been a Model or many other states in austria and also in germany Mainly in germany. There are other Industries that are trying to or are doing it and there's especially a very well known Woman professor who's pushing these so-called civic councils or wisdom councils and And then I uh mentioned that and then she said oh martin I think it would be good if we first did a documentary before we did the tv participation project I'll I'll share with you the The the presentation And she asked um, would I write a treatment so we could Present that to swiss national television and there's like a fundraising Foundation for documentaries and she said Would you do that and I said yes, and then I then I thought it would be great to in that show It's about 15 minutes. It would be like four examples one in switzerland on a local level like a city One's more on a statewide level and the other one the third one I thought would be ideal for taiwan the national level And maybe there's one uh that is more on a trans national level a participation project So I just wanted to generally just hear you are you Uh Would that be a possibility if let's say this actually gets funded that means that would be In fall and then we would probably start filming in fall and and winter time and uh And we would film either a project that has happened Or a project that you're working on that Would film like the whole process it would be a a short Part of it that means like about 15 minutes. We would interview you we would in and show the project like in a How do you say in a fast motion So oh here's the person comes to the office hour or somebody's raising and then And then it goes then you have your hackathons and then you move forward And you go through the diamonds Until it's actually something happens No, and and introducing So generally I just wanted to ask is this something That would be possible to do for example Yeah, certainly um So if it's involving me as a um actually in the film I ask is either the film itself to be released under creative commons or that one of our filming crew can film your filming And released out as creative commons, and that's my only condition and everything else sounds just Okay Good I think I'm not sure about the first one especially because it's swiss national table We would have to figure that out, but i'm sure the second version is easily Is sure sure then then we've done that with many directors. Yeah, okay So you have uh just for me to understand So you have had film crews coming in from foreign countries and filming the process. Yeah. Yeah, huge numbers But but I don't think it followed from the beginning to the end And certainly in a fast motion Usually people are interested in one part of it And they just extrapolate And uh tom in our first meeting has commented that usually they then frame it in the narrative That they're familiar with and kind of miss the community creation point But we have a lot of films one particularly I think more fair or balanced report is The interactive design award, but it's very short. It's like five minutes. And so I saw that the then the Danish filmmaker That's right. So so the shorter one I think that is the most balanced one of the short films But the longer films tend to have a agenda of its own. Let's do it that way This is so we don't have a production at the moment that takes care of those balances Okay, so is this something that would also be interesting for be taiwan or just to have a fair presentation of the whole process? Well, the thing is that it's never the same process for the same case So so for example, we can't promise that when you come to film in winter There will be a case that involves the use of polis because maybe for all the cases around the time We decide polis is not the best idea. Right. And so so um, if you, you know expect No specifics, you will always get something and I think I think the community Will be happy with that but if you Expect any specifics then we are easier if we go through the historical archives Okay Because you have basically everything streamed as I as far as I at least the Right and under creative commons so you can use the footage How everyone but like if you have a Hackathon that's not being filmed. Is it or is it? Well, we're just starting to film our to live stream our weekly meetups. There is no guarantee that it will continue But normally the pitch part of the hackathon of Pet projects that people are bringing in in the larger hackathons Those are live streamed as well to ensure that people can participate online to at least understand What what is there that people want to do and there's also filmed at a Final presentation of what's being done at the end of the day in the larger hackathons And so those are live streamed as well, but they're mostly emendering so But but there's the english tour of larger hackathons, but those are not filmed far as I know Yeah, I was just thinking for in the archives. Would there be enough to represent the whole process on any given issue Or something that would satisfy Martin's desire to represent the whole process Well, then then I think you have to balance it with many interviews, but I think That's not a big problem because if you come to the graph zero submit Which is october 5 to 7 you will pretty much have all the different generations of Occupy and post occupy movement on the graph zero side And so you can you know use interviews to to fill in the gaps so to speak Of whatever you're trying to to film. So so that's the link to the submit That I just pasted here, right, right and it's in english I think this is the presidential hackathon or No, no, no, this is the graph zero submit it is okay like the graph zero the shadow government version of the presidential hack Uh, yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. So it is not stated as sponsored in any way, but but you'll you'll find most of the gov zero actors here Okay Thank you, great. Um, Audrey. Um, I'll share my screen quickly. Um, sure So I will I'm sure that will be good. Yeah good and Just check There I go. Here it is. Um, okay Okay, you see it. Audrey, right? smarter together Okay, this is the the interactive live tv show. Um, I'll just um shared with you and in a quick mode And you and maybe this could be interesting at some point Or parts of it. Um, this is an existing show that you're thinking of writing along having a version of a program of Yes, I think yeah, it might as It might be it might have some I it might have aspects that are interesting in regard to To to what you're doing, Audrey. So I'll just give it a shot Um, first of all, um I it's it's basically Interactive in on different levels. I'll show I'll go through the the quick part of the show design We have for example, this is a us issue gun violence Here in switzerland, we have something about the health care reform because prizes prices are rising in the health care reform That's a difficult issue and we also have gender equality here in switzerland Women also are still paid about 25 less than men in certain areas And the show design would be basically through the channels of national media There would be on radio television web the information on a certain topic And after that topic You would also with that topic. You would also launch for example a policy To get the diversity of the opinions After that Or during that phase where these different media channels are used we you have then This random selection Basically of This random selection of the people This is basic the civic council and these 15 people come together and about two to three days depending on the on the complexity of the issue They have a basic introduction of the results of policy and also the basic introduction from experts or from policy makers about the situation and where and where they have difficulty difficult Decisions to make and where where are the dilemmas? for example For example in in europe, we have the dilemma about The Issue where a lot of foreigners enter the country from africa from And so forth. So we have the refugee situation. So how hard are you on the refugees? How do you? Close the borders and so forth. So it's a it's a very difficult issue um and then after that the Once you have two or three days these people Work on issues and they as 15 people come up with Their unanimous recommendations. They they are like They have to be like collegial and then they'll say, okay, this is what we think as a group Uh, that's part of it. Um, you can be you have might have differences in a certain part But as you as a group you come as one council you you know in that sense And then there's the possibility of the media if they have some recommendations That for example, just concrete solutions They come up with and these are already working somewhere in the region The television would show these positive deviants. So they would show. Oh, this is already working in this town This is how they're doing it and they these people are invited For example, so these positive deviants are filmed. It could also be in other regions Maybe even in in another country. They have maybe even a solution to a specific problem and then on the live show You have you have an audience about 100 people maybe and then you ask the tv audience to use their To have their digital devices or laptop ready Then what you do would be the first clip that would be you would present the situations and facts And then the maybe you have some experts and politicians Answer some questions and then you introduce this civic council No, sorry, you then you introduce The policy results for example And then you introduce the civic council And this civic council basically you have maybe two or three people who are probably Better than the others in the group to explain things. So they would share their key insights and you would have visually Enhanced presentation of the key insights and then you would also show clips of positive deviants that are already happening So that would be the presentation of what these people these randomly selecting people as as the council would recommend And then What you then have is the people in the at home have the possibility to rate their resistance to The to either they're usually different kinds of solutions. One is more a principle We we believe we can do it. That's like a principle And you have a concrete solution For we need more information Website from the government that gives us more data information about the whole refugee thing We don't know what's going on. That's why we're scared So so let's say you have these kinds of recommendations and then the people at home they rate their level of resistance and Also, you also have the people in the audience that share their resistance and then those things that are very high in resistance You automatically throw out And those things that are maybe let's say from zero to ten have an average of four to five resistance You ask hey, why is your resistance like five to six and then people would say I think it would be important to include Some agencies here or or somebody else should take care of the problem I think this is too complex too difficult And then you ask them for solutions. What would lower your resistance? So the people can either improve The solutions or offer new solutions and this could be from people in the studio audience or people from home So this is this is the basic idea. There's one software. I think it's called a mentimeter That you have online immediate response possibilities with without a identification or a larger login that would be and then Um And then you have like a second round where you have all the new solutions come in and then you have one more resistance Measure and then you have the top three or four proposals or 10 or five or six proposal depending on the issue And that's it and then you close the show And if it's a show if it's something that is very complex, you can have two Two or even three shows on the same topic You know, so that would be something That was that is the basically tv participation element That I just wanted to share just maybe it's interesting. I'll send you If I'll send you the link to it so you can automatically Download it whenever if you want to have a look at it more in detail It's on a dropbox link Here's Here here it is. Sorry about that. Okay. There you go That so that's it and And um, I'll send the So that Okay, I stopped sharing the screen, right? No, well Or is it still We can see the sharing We can see the chat it right but they it's okay. Okay. Yeah, okay. So that's it and and yeah Then there's The third topic I wanted To ask about we were Margaret who you just met and a colleague of tom and I andy. We were thinking about Working on a proposal for fundraising for for cii and we came up with One idea as part of this fundraising proposal is besides supporting tom and cii and the work These are this is a fundraising proposal. We would like to send two companies individuals or foundations And there's two parts in it one is supporting tom's work And one is creating like a kind of media channel with Sharing best practices and so forth or Creating webinars. So there's one idea while Watching and hearing about v taiwan. I was very enthusiastic and excited and I said Wouldn't odd dream be interested or v taiwan or the team interested in people Creating like presentations or workshops about the whole process with photos images slideshows and I as far as my understanding is you have Online calls just like this one with other people from other governments and so forth introducing them to the whole situation, right? Right and yes, I'm I was just wondering is this Any interest like people like us from from my outside creating workshops slideshows and so forth sharing the process for example in europe or in america and maybe in a way That i'm not sure if it's more accessible, but i'm just thinking up Is this any need or any is the demand rising for presentations like that that people would like to know how this works how the software works And how it could be implemented in their culture. It's always this transfer of culture So that would be something it's not You can't as you said in one of the calls you can Transplant it or order it but you can figure out what will work in our culture and how Or is this something that or even raise the question? Is this something that would work in our culture? Or do we have to change the whole? The way the soil as you said and what would be needed to change at this well So i'm just wondering if this is something of any interest because basically andy and i would be very enthusiastic and If there would be funds To create workshops and even come to taiwan maybe a few months and you know Create pictures and do translations whatever is needed And then and then do present a offer webinars and of course tom is right writes about it You can even create articles or books or a book about it Or a short work about it, whatever So i'm just wondering in that direction what you what We be taiwan and your team have Maybe you may have had some thoughts around that So that's my question. Yes, certainly. Yes, so um matter of fact, we we had a Curriculum of the process For public servants way back before I joined the cabinet. It's a two-day forum with plenty of workshops And a process that we've trained at least I don't know a thousand or so of public servants via hands-on training Um, and that's like the original v-time process Um back in 2015 and all the way to early 2016 most of the materials are in in mandarin, uh, but we After I become a digital minister, um, we we started working on Uh an english curriculum of the counterparts because we do get as you said a lot of interest from Public servants many of them at the city level And so we're thinking to deploy Such a workshop training. It will be just six hours. It will be a bridged version First we will do a trial run in Taipei With the public servants who are well versed in english Here just to to move one variable at a time and then Hold a training. I think late may In in new york city With the civic hall people. We are also thinking to do something like that in otawa Around the four fifty, but it's not finalized yet At the end of the year around november, I think So that's the two engagements that we're we're thinking about So so by nature of our work, they will have full documentaries, but we are not yet editing them So so that's to to answer your question. We will have an english course curriculum at the end of may around may 20 ish And we will keep perfecting it Or whatever perfecting means To to november ish. Yeah, but that's that's more of a one part of like like it will be A a brief introduction of the the two diamonds And a practice that goes through perhaps this These parts of the two diamonds and perhaps a little bit here But it will not be the the complete experience which will require two days From our experience And so that's the material that we will have and so if you're interested Again, we can collaborate on many ways so I can hand you all the Role material and you can do do editing. That's one way or you can um book one of the the possible teams Of public seven's interest in this kind of training and document a whole process. Maybe we can fly to europe That's another part of it or you can come to taiwan and Capture the whole process and also interview some community members and rely on translations So so we can uh make whatever way that we want but we're open to collaboration in any of the three or four different ways of collaboration So basically you are training people in in your from your team Basically to do these workshops prepare them and so they can do these workshops around the world wherever is needed So this would be like a that's right starting point now in may and november For to to give it to start and to start improving the material And then yes, and and we will we will focus on the tools at the middle of the diamond Called, uh, right so called issue-based mapping is the codename for it. Um, and it will be Very hands-on and we will use concrete Maybe mock subjects that the audience cares about to go through part of the process together Okay Um Okay interested interesting. I'm I'm wondering So I one one possibility would be would be to take part at one of these workshops in may And see how you do it and then and then see Oh, uh, we would like to do this Introduce the material and even if we think there's some material missing We would we would ask you for it or come to taiwan and complete and do the extra material which is needed And so forth and then and then we could do these workshops or so if if there's the demand is high So it sure sure just as a scenario. Let's say there are there's some Someone in london or in england and says, oh, there's this v taiwan. Is there anybody in europe who can do this workshop? Would there be could do you think there could be a scenario like andy could do that workshop in london for you? Yes, certainly. Uh, I mean the nesta people are already de facto doing this uh Yeah, the the nesta sink tank Uh has done a very thorough review of the v taiwan process circa Like 2016 uh early 2016 and so they've been spreading the the world and the process in in many different settings That I don't even have a very accurate track of so that that's already happening. It's what i'm saying Okay, and nesta's basin Uh london Oh, they're in london. Okay Okay, okay, great um Well, thank you right and and the the upcoming new york one It we're still working on this but but here is the working google document that Uh lists the about six hours um of the parts that is um Well, it goes into too much detail then we can go into but that that is the general format of a workshop structured With the primary audience being public servants, but also people from other sectors are welcome to join and in fact We think it works better if there's a mixture of private and civil society and the public sector Oh, okay, let me see if I got that Okay, okay Is this the joint library of humanities? No, that's the other one, right? No, no, no. No, this is the the new york Curriculum that that we're planning Okay, here it is. Oh, there's the good. Okay working title. I got it. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah Government led collaboration workshop for public policy co-creation. Cool. Cool. I have that. Okay. Wow Because I think I think Andy and I would both be excited doing the kind of work like this, you know, so you know The fourth issue would be Which I wanted to ask you we're basically Cia has been funding this been funded basically by I think tom you do once or twice a year you do some fundraising That that basically covers the basic cost living costs of tom and I'm just wondering audrey If you if you have any, you know, like Contacts you think or especially in the u.s. And silicon valley that might be interested or might be have a budget for for organizations like cii that might want to might be interested in supporting Organizations that are doing work like tom is doing and or we are let's say if we had a larger budget We could come to taiwan and for go easily to new york city and watch the do the work should be at the workshop Or do extra filming in v taiwan and so forth. So I'm just wondering I have to think twice about going to seattle Right and I'm just wondering if you have any ideas or any thoughts about that or contacts to a silicon valley around that I mean, we would appreciate some kind of links sure. Um, yes, and Yeah, and I have a document That we just made it a month ago And I I'll just share you the link so you know, this is the work. This is this is I had a document sorry There it is Here you know you're providing a link you're much faster argy Really fast. It's great. Yeah, I just noticed how fast you are while I'm doing it myself Okay, that would be the link to the document which is about the work and in the fundraising stuff right, so D Yeah, if Yeah, this is the Venn diagram. Um, yeah, I I've read this before so in any case Yeah, the the answer Is several fold. Um, I I do have A lot of friends in the The kind of civic tech world So if you you frame yourself as a a technology amplifier or enabler By by far the largest networks, um, aside from the usual Suspects google microsoft Facebook and and friends, uh, are this network called the omidia network And And and omidia is very interesting because they they don't directly invest Or put friends in very small ish organizations But they put their work into intermediaries like my society in the uk um, and and many others so, um, the omidia extended network like co for america and things like that, uh, do have a lot of, um, um, different grants and different supporting, uh Platforms for for endless like this, but I don't have a very close track of their extended networks, but it's all in the omidia public Website, so that's one part of it. Uh, and uh, the loans from omidia or for grants from omidia, can you You can but but but they are you can but it's it's generally very very large amount So we say it was a plan to to kind of serve as intermediary They're like, uh, investing or putting grants to intermediary who then distributors money to, um In a more coordinated fashion To to effect some synergy As the same scale. Um, so that's the the omidia's main idea And of course the personal democracy forum folks the new york folks. Um, they also have Pretty good, um sponsorship, but these are all from technology companies. Um, I understand that There's google orc. There's the civic type part of microsoft So so all those silicon valley huge companies. They they have an arm toward this kind of community work Um, but I I don't know the criteria. I haven't interacted with it with their investment arm or grant arm directly I mostly work with their technology arm, but but but there's one arm in each of those huge, um companies at this point And uh, what else? Um, there's the the larger impact investing Network, uh at the moment we're we're talking with avpn Which is the uh asian venture philanthropy network But they focus their work on impact investing around asia, but i'm sure that there is their their equivalents in other parts of the world, but then you have to kind of, um frame yourself as a um enabler for for social innovation Um in the in the sense that you make social enterprises and csls function on a higher level due to these um technologies or these uh ways of working in which case you will be built as a process innovation and that will um That that's the threshold for for entering the venture philanthropy network, um, so what else um There's many other partisan uh entities, um the national democratic Institute or something like that. Um, there's one for major parties. Um in many other countries as well But I because of my work, I can't really interact with them anymore And what else? Um, that's pretty much it actually that's that's the extent that I know of are there individuals you know of individuals of wealth as they say rich people who um Who this kind of thing? I mean, you know, you know a lot about my kind of thinking and the kinds of innovations that I focus on at this point You know anybody? Who has You know, there's there's people millionaires billionaires Who choose to create some impact? relatively directly uh And are you does anybody come to mind who is like that who? Since I'm kind of out of the box. I'm not I'm not an easily and easily described Innovator so the people who might go. Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more kind of right, um So along the way, um, like in here in taiwan A lot of gov zero grants are done by individually wealthy people And they kind of form a a kind of angel investment club Um and focus on democracy But I think that is very particularly taiwan saying because you know when when they were When they were made rich, uh, taiwan wasn't even a democracy So so they channeled there a lot of their their wealth into the continued democratization process I I don't know equivalent In the in the developed world Of of all democracies, you know Right. Yeah, there's a fresh thing called threshold, which is a similar network of wealthy people that have a foundation branch, but mostly or Hey, joe if you looked at this as I was thinking you might be interested in kind of Network, but they're their center of gravity is progressive. It may or may not embrace Wildly democratic things like ours Right and and there's there's this this media lab Uh network, uh, that looks at like what they call extended intelligence quote-unquote Um, it's mainly a joey ito thing, but I think I learned that from from sandi Alex pentland and they're they're all computer science ish people around media lab but focus on bringing the human side out and um Focus on the existential issues that you are also focused on but from a how do we Make humanity itself less selfish through intervention of artificial intelligence and extended intelligence Like borderline transhumanist Angle and I'm not exactly sure how robotics and your work mix, but it it actually makes a lot There's parts from effective computing from playful systems from the human dynamics group, which are all media lab Things and they get their sponsorship from like lego of all places And and things like that. So so they're kind of like a bridge between the the salt leaders or or salt wisdom leaders and the The lego ish companies and then try to find synergies between those. So that's another network that I'm not intimately familiar But I'm aware that they're doing a lot of these catalyst work that connect Rich companies and the social impacts they could have had With the leading thinkers. So that's another network and i'd really allow this to my team Is that the MIT media lab? Yes? Oh, okay Hey, thank you so much. Audrey. I'm those were my four points great I think We have made his walk as far as I can go. That's what this is three hours. Gee. I can't even make the next half hour Like I did the first time Right No, no, it's just fine. So a martin. Do you do have any other points you want to No, I think I was I was glad to hear your uh response around the workshops. I think that is very interesting and uh, and um And I think there's quite a lot a lot of interest. I have this professor political science professor who works for uh institution of the german government It's called uh, I think it's called institute for advanced sustainability studies And she's very good in the work of b taiwan. So If If you have ever a schedule coming to europe, you know sharing the process i'll share the process I'll tell her that you're in new york and so forth uh and share that one document and uh, and then I will um And she would I'm sure she would want to invite you or one of your colleagues who to the institute space near berlin in potstown and so Because they are working on different issues in regard to uh bringing in participation into the government including technology and all these different things that and so forth they're like a Well funded think tank or institution with a lot of academics mainly academics It would be very interesting So, okay. Well, sure. Yeah, let's Carry on this conversation over email and um, I mean My trips to europe, I don't have anything booked yet, but uh shui yang goes to europe Very frequently in the past few months. So yeah, we'll find we'll find someone Yeah, that would be great if uh, I can also write shui shui yang to to let me know if she's traveling and then she Of course, uh, I think that would be ideal Great turns out. Audrey is relatively fluent as a reader of german So it's an interesting well, yeah, like like 10 years old level fluent, but yes Oh, yeah Oh, okay. Yeah, I stay I stay for a year in in in zahaland Uh in uh when my dad was doing his phd in the zahaland university So it it's very rusty now. So but I has to uh read and uh A little bit of original german material, but yeah, but but I think it's it's okay if you just send me Materials in and knowledge. I will probably be able to read. Yeah. Okay. Wow Great, that's good to know I just noticed one go ahead. I'm finished. Okay one other thing on my note my My page of questions That I had before this Trying to pick up from all different places sure One of the things that I have found Different in my thinking from most the other democracy thinkers is specifically regarding the issue of A focus on diversity versus a focus on numbers You know the like public opinion Surveys and elections and all these things Focus on the number of people and that from my theory. That's a natural focus when you have a competitive scene where the more The more soldiers in your army or the more money you have Whatever this makes the difference and to be able if you're going to have a representative Group of people to make a decision You need to and you're going to say this is a cross-section of the population all night They have the right number of black people the right number of white people right number of asian people whatever uh, and when you're dealing with Diversity not demographic diversity, which is what the word means to most people nowadays it seems but Full range of you know cognitive diversity experiential diversity If you're are different perspectives if your trip is trying to generate Wisdom out of diversity if you have special ways of helping people who are very diverse Come together in various ways The numbers are borderline irrelevant and I found in talking I can't remember where those you or um Or shuyang That that if you have the same votes You know the really the agree or disagree things and paul this right right then they disappear Yeah, it's just yeah, let's say you're it's reducing the system to its diversity and the It's ashby's law of the The solution work that you're doing must have the diversity in it that exists in the problem. You're trying to system. You're trying to solve on the focus on diversity and integrating diverse perspectives is Fundamentally different from the numbers perspective and I don't know if you have If you have or run across you're more trained Theoretician than I am if you've run across theory about this Because I don't know I have barely articulated it in my own writings, but it seems a fundamental paradigm shift In participatory deliberative activities to think that way Yeah, um, I don't have any Um So I think it is a more of a emphasis than anything else. It's not like we can suddenly Discover the spectrum of diversity without there being a base of people To to start with right so so there has to be a little bit of both Both on the number of people And the diversity it could surface But it is true that if we choose to ignore the duplicates then The the face of the crowd is different as opposed to if we want to emphasize the Relative numbers So it will look very different and I think it is the conscious design decision Of of polis of colon to to do that and and I think colon wasn't even a Professional programmer to start with I think he taught taught civics and senior high school or something Habermas and stuff. So so he he kind of learned programming to realize this political vision and so so I think colon Is More suited than than me to to explain the choice of the polis system There's this person if Saint-Thomas a a french Serious and widely regardless one of the leading thinkers around Participatory budgeting and and things like that And I read one of his papers. I think it's actually not this one, but it's It's very close And where he argues about Where where does this representation idea actually came from and He was arguing that the the proxy representation through representative democracy or through the, you know numbers Based representation Could be extended to actually more heterogeneous Kind of way and so it's not exactly this paper that I'm looking for but but it is a starting point And yeah, I had long talks with with eve around the different ideas of representation and that is in fact where I get this word representation As as defined by how to capture the the whole systems From which those diversities occur By presenting as much as possible the original Proposer or petitioner or stakeholders point of view Instead of having one person to speak on behalf of a focus group, for example And so it entails a different design of space and which is why the insisting live streaming or at least on the video recording or at least the transfer recording because only through the Conversational context can we research this the the presentation around the time where the dialogue happens which in turn outlines the the more holistic and not individual Stake-based conversation and so this is a representation of people but not the representation Of people and and so on so so so yeah, I would Encourage you to to explore a little bit of eve's work because I I borrow a lot of words from right as well Okay, I will check that out. I just realized one of the challenges in diversity-based councils Uh is the definition because diversity is infinite Every entity every person is unique and they're every entity has multiple infinite dimensions so what Which standard are you going to do is demographics is a great starting point, but it's barely scratches the surface of diversity that's important uh and you just gave your your mention of the merger of of the numbers Approach and the diversity approach in the sense that if you have a way to Extract the relevant diversity from a group the bigger the group is the more adequate you will have the represent the the Diversity represented from within that group on which I haven't thought about particularly and that's what paulis is particularly skilled to say He's an incorrect word particularly skilled at presenting as you can get lots of people and right Exactly exactly Yeah, the intuition here is that we use sampling mechanism because we can't deal with large number of people Uh, but if we can deal with large number of people then the the territory is better than the map So to speak the the the population is better than the sample And we're we're not there yet, but that's the intuition Yeah, I'm still trying to understand The difference One of my big realizations. I think I told you was that the fact that people When people in paulis Many people not all people when many people in paulis mark disagree They will then submit an item That is their proposal for resolving their disagreement And yeah, yeah, so there's a funny way in which It mimics face-to-face deliberations Yes to do that and that was a revelation for me and I go What is What is the fundamental difference between paulis and face-to-face deliberations And I thought well, there's much much less bandwidth, right? That there's much less bandwidth, but but that's what holo polis is trying to To explore what if we can add much more bandwidth By having synthetic personalities That speak as a phase to the group in an interactive way as kind of the game in augmented or virtual reality through chatbots or through other kind of extended intelligence Forms so so that's the main question. Should we only is Exploring it's it's very speculative design But but that's to bridge the the two Dimensions right in face-to-face It's very easy to to just sketch a model and get people to look at my perspective By using the whiteboard or using a a lego. Why not or whatever else, but there is nothing Theoretically preventing us to do this over the internet. It's just the technology isn't quite there yet so so what if we just consciously Push the technology toward Face-to-face deliberation, but do it in a way that could be Asynchronous meaning that we just have a conversation with whatever that's online But our conversation becomes synthetic personalities that other people can carry on the conversation with that's the the intuition That's related to but somewhat different from what i'm looking at And i'm extracting meaning from it, but want to refocus it In the polis i guess What the interaction is based on is these restrictively brief statements yes And in face i'm trying to figure out what's a difference in the deliberative quality And to a certain extent you're The idea of making um If you have really responsive avatars That the really representative avatars you can get facial expressions and all that emotions and all that that dimension of it Which may or may not be Cognitively important, but at the very least In a face-to-face deliberation somebody is giving a Fuller statement of whatever it is that they Are contributing and people are responding to that level of detail and complexity with their own version of detail and complexity and that That's an advantage that face-to-face deliberation has from a deliberative quality perspective and There's a streamlining over simplification But it offers this consensus extracting power Yeah, and I guess that's and that bumps into another thing that I suggested in my earlier 10 page thing that we haven't talked about but wondering if Like in Wikipedia there's discussion dimension to each page Which is not on the front the front is just the statement the Consents so far consensus statement is And I was wondering what it would be like In Paul lists to have in any statement in paul list there's a Tag you can poke that will take you to a discussion space about that And there's a way in which I originally said oh well that starts to produce the level of Of the substance that regular deliberation has But if it's not facilitated It starts to introduce the bullshit that polis was explicitly designed to get rid of That's right. That's right. Um, the the the thing is Well, the thing is is is two-fold the the one that I was exploring holo polis Was that the face-to-face? required Required they are holo polis Yeah, a more or more holo right a more more Holographic Holos a holo status also right, so Yeah, so so shuyang was Right, so shuyang was exploring from three angles, right for the virtual reality angle um Where it adds dimension to the current polis conversation the conversational bot angle Where it's synthesized personality And to make it more fun to to go into more depth and the mixed reality Part where it makes it possible to talk around concrete Such as I don't know urban planning or whatever Projects wild still being face-to-face basically overlaying the online conversation with that face-to-face deliberation And so so these are the angles that that she's exploring But that's that's the part that kind of bridges What we call the cyber system versus the physical system But but you're talking about something else you're talking about if you want to Make it so that each statement Can be more fully explored in a more conflict-resolving way in a facilitated conversation And the challenge here is That it in computer science terms it requires a a user agent That can speak on behalf of the user because the user it doesn't have the time for exploring in these steps To thousands of statements or commentaries It is necessary for the user to to be enabled or extended in some way So that their user agent can can negotiate Within the space like their secretary and surface the main parts that require their cognitive import Otherwise it doesn't scale and you go back to the place where the trolls with the most time wins the conversation And so the the traditional way to resolve this through face-to-face Is by limiting the number of participants and have high quality facilitators human facilitators So that's the traditional solution and and what we're we're exploring here is something else It's to make facilitator distributed so that each participant has a micro facilitating power Currently only through voting and proposing statements, but maybe More proactively so that their collective facilitating power is equal to a well-trained human facilitator And we're very far from that yet, but it's a very different Attack angle to the same problem. It is what i'm saying So this is another version like I was mentioned to colon Earlier, I can imagine Where the the discussion space Is another version of polis Where people but in this case it is a Anybody can enter a point to consider And it is The points to consider Are Thrown up when you go to click on the discussion section You get a let's say Four points to consider that you rate And then it shows you What everybody has rated in order of how How many people rated it kind of so you're you're wanting to get you're going there Primarily to get more information And see what other people may be missing so you can add it in So the the software is By Throwing up random statements that have already been made It is It is creating a neutral rating space And then showing you the things that are currently Highly rated and then you can Your two cents and it enters into that system So that somebody who comes Can go through the quick motions of rating These things and then get the top ones which will educate them quickly about what's going on with this topic Without there being controls Able to surface visibly That's an approach I can imagine Yeah, exactly And yes, and by just part of the problem, I keep thinking of wikipedia and wikipedia as these discussions wikipedia has this you know background community that's handling all this stuff and I go but It's this entity that just sits here and paulus is something that comes and goes it doesn't have It doesn't have the capacity because of its Temporariness to build a level of community that could And facilitate it, you know In this level, right, right, right? Yes, so which is why Before the polis there always has to have a A community it could be stakeholder It could be the state power of binding power that brings people together. It could be something and The continuity of the community As we started discussing at the very first call It's actually the the weekly hackathons is actually the online channels of communication and so on is the gov0 Backbone without which I don't think any of this will result in anything that is More than a an incremental way of brainstorming. So so so people buy participation in one of those smaller games As I said end up learning about the toolkit of thinking and end up Feeling that they can contribute more to the progress of this evidently non-perfect Community and then is motivated to jump into this this con this gap to help feeling it So so that's the recruitment the meta recruitment Procedure which is why I keep referring to those social issues as quote-unquote excuses For for engagement right, right Your big picture of you again Okay, well, I'm yeah I have been Sufficiently complexified on that question Okay, so I should probably wrap up Okay, well, that's great. So you will you send out your link when you get it for this thing Or should I Send out you mean the recording or I recorded it. Yeah Yeah, no, I just recorded the voice. So I still rely on your side of recording for the screen and everything And and I I've I've already published the the conversation of shuyang and you and I So from the previous call, but we haven't got around to make a transcript of that yet. Um, so yeah All right, so soon as you you upload it, uh, we'll put it to the youtube channel Okay We're there blessings on the journey I'm yeah, yes value the connection with you immensely Okay, all right later. So Yeah, so here's your chat if you want it Sure. Sure. Yeah already done. Um, so yeah have a good local time Thank you Thank you for everything. Bye. Bye Chat so what do you think martin? Isn't this an existential trip and a half? Yeah, I'm I mean Audrey has time This was there's this kind of uh, there's there's like both in it. Um Um, yeah, I'm still wondering, you know, in the sense, um