 Let's just hit Recording. Great. So do you remember there are motorcons in the chat as well that you can use so you can convey to us how you're getting on and give some reactions to Shona's conversation. So the webinar we're doing today is being brought to you by the ALT Open Education Special Interest Group. We organise regular webinars to share open education and research and practice in the area and Shona presented this or some early results I think of the call study that you're going to talk to us about at your call and I remember taking copious notes at the time and thinking I really must catch up again with Shona. To my disgrace it's taken me this long to actually do this but I'm very grateful to Shona for accepting to come and join us and to take us through her results from teacher educators. Do feel free to post your questions en route in the chat. Shona has lots to tell us in the next 20 minutes and then we'll come back to a Q&A at the end and the context here is adopting open practices for language educators. So I'm looking forward to hearing more about this. Thank you very much Shona for agreeing. I'm going to switch my webcam off so that I can turn the floor over to you. So thank you very much Teresa for a very warm welcome. It's lovely to be here. I haven't done a webinar for a while. It's always a bit of a strange situation because you don't quite know who you're talking to and you have no one in front of you. I'm looking at my dog sleeping in his basket across the room there but I will I'm very happy to be here and as Teresa says I do have a lot to tell you. I've been working with language teachers particularly English as a foreign language in secondary school classrooms here in the south of France working on a number of projects and so I'm going to try and give you some results of that and talk a little bit about how this relates to open education, to open resources, to open practices and what seem to be some of the challenges that we face in this area. So my title is adopting open practices in schools, a call teacher education study. The first question we might say then is why do we want openness in teacher education and professional development? After all we could do as we have been doing for a long time and work with our teachers in their individual classrooms, in their individual context. Why should we try and open things up? Well one reason is that we've seen in projects where we've worked with our teachers that there's quite a limited uptake of pedagogical practices changes in practices. People are a little bit reluctant to change when they have new technology or when they have new opportunities to change their practice they tend not to change very quickly. One reason for this has been suggested by Reinhardt who says it's a problem of agency that maybe teachers don't feel autonomous, don't feel encouraged, don't feel supported in adopting new practices, they don't feel maybe that it's something for them that will help them in their own professional development. Another strand of research that's interesting here though is the notion of looking at teachers in the wild themselves so we're kind of examining what teachers do once they're out of training, once they're in their own classrooms and perhaps not being particularly supported. So I hope my sound is okay, let me know if there's any technical problems there and pop a question in the chat, I'll try and keep my eye on things. The questions here I'm asking here is what kinds of practices and resources do teachers use, so again I'm working mostly with language teachers, what factors seem to influence their adoption of practices and what are the challenges and opportunities, so I'll try and address these. Here's my context though, so I've been working both with in-service teachers and with pre-service teachers and I've worked in two funded European projects which are the ITILT projects and then I've done quite a lot of workshops and webinars and I also, I was actually in charge of our Masters in Teaching Languages, the English part of it, at the University of Nice for a few years and I still work with teachers there so this is my pre-service initial teacher educational opportunity, so these are the things I'm going to be talking about. The ITILT project, the first one, you can look at this link that's here but don't go just now because it's actually down at the moment, itilt.eu unfortunately it's down. It was a project on interactive white boards where we helped teachers, well we actually worked with teacher educators across Europe to design teacher education modules, we trained teachers to use the interactive white board in the classrooms, we visited, we provided a bit of technopedagogical support and we got some data, so we recorded the classrooms, we interviewed the learners, we did what's called video stimulated recall with teachers which means we look at the video of the class afterwards with the teachers and we talk about what happened and then we select examples in order to create a website and you can see we produced quite a large corpus of classroom materials from this project. We had 267 video clips, we had 44 teachers, 81 lessons in seven different languages and at four different educational levels so hopefully that website will be back up at the moment, we're having a little bit of technical trouble but that was the the first opportunity we had to look at what teachers were doing in the classroom. We did it in order to produce a repository and to do a bit of research on teacher education and our question was with respect to interactive classroom technology does the use of the interactive white board produce greater technological interactivity, does it mean more interactional engagement and does it mean more task oriented teaching? So these are things that we might hope from putting interactive white boards in the classrooms, we might hope to get these things and our question was did we? In order to figure out whether we did or not we looked at three different dimensions of classroom practice so we looked at technological interactivity, we looked at interactional engagement and we looked at task orientation and these references are there all in the link that's in the chat so you can have a look at these papers if you like, you can also look at the original project but if you look at the right hand side of this table you'll see the different categories that we use to measure the different types of dimensions of practice that we were interested in. So let me just show you then three slides going through these three different dimensions. One thing that we did while we were making the website with our 267 videos of IWB supported practice is we created a quick search tool where we allowed people to search the website depending on whether they wanted to look at participant configuration, in other words who's using the board, is it the teacher, is it the learners, whether they wanted to look at particular IWB tools so they want to see the use of images, they want to see the use of content marking, we can access that directly and then the the third variable that we offered was the objective, you want to look at the IWB being used for grammar teaching, do you want to look at it for listening, are you interested in teaching of literature in foreign languages, so that was our quick search and from that data we were then able to do a global evaluation of what kinds of things these teachers were doing. So to remind you 44 teachers, 267 clips and we found that the teachers mostly showed us individual learners at the board and mostly these activities were teacher fronted. We found that the interaction that we saw was quite low level in the sense that they used quite simple tools and they tended to use the same tools all the time and then we found a balance between the four skills like listening, speaking and reading and so on and then a balance with the subskills such as spelling, pronunciation and then cultural objectives so there was quite a range, quite a spread of activities being conducted. The second dimension I mentioned was interactional engagement and here we're looking a little bit about we're looking at how teachers and learners interact so the lowest level interactivity would be drill where the teacher has the learners listen and repeat for example or do things in a fairly mechanized manner. Display is a little bit more interactive where the student goes to the board to show what they have understood. Simulation more like roleplay or so on and here there's a little bit more openness for the little bit more opportunities for the learners to do their own thing and in communication we're really not in the practice stage anymore it's not an exercise but learners hopefully are really trying to express feelings that they have. So with these four levels what did we find? We looked at the subset here with my colleague Eileen Kutram-Schmidt who's in Germany. We looked at French and German EFL teachers in primary and secondary schools and we found that there was three times more drill and display than simulation and communication so that means a lot more low level interaction than higher level interaction. We found also the correlation between educational level and level of interaction so it was at primary schools that we saw the most drilling and there was more communication at the higher levels. There was also a French-German difference with the German teachers being a bit more ready I think to use communication than some of my French primary teachers. So again with the use of the interactive whiteboard we're not seeing a huge amount of interactional engagement. Last thing was task orientation and here I looked only at the French teachers who were in the project so there were nine French teachers and I found again not a huge uptake of task-based learning criteria. The person who used of my nine teachers the teacher who used the most task-based approaches was our primary teacher educator and the least was lower secondary. So the finding there was of a somewhat conservative or cautious approach to IWB use for teaching with teachers focusing on a limited repertoire of basic functions such as dragging and dropping in images to fulfill relatively circumscribed language learning objectives vocabulary pronunciation receptive skills and often with a teaching method involving an individual learner working at the IWB before the class. So kind of a limited effect on these different levels of different measures of interaction and engagement for the IWB in the secondary EFL classroom actually the primary also primary EFL classroom in France. So with these findings we thought we would try to move on into a second project where we would try again to look at these dimensions of interactivity, interactional engagement, task orientation with updated technologies and maybe a slightly different approach on our part but we want to keep the same measures because we want to compare. So in the second project this is I tilt to 2014 to 17 you see the link there and this one is up so you can look at that here we looked at you we used mobile and video conferencing technologies rather than just the IWB but we had pretty much the same format where we had an education module to help the teachers get ready we provided a lot of pedagogical support for designing and implementing the activities and then again we selected video examples with the teachers in order to create a searchable repository. So this time we looked we wanted to work more intensively with individual teachers so we collected fewer examples we had 76 video clips, 31 different tasks, 22 teachers, four languages at three different educational levels and here I'm going to compare the two for you So I found that in I tilt to there was a lot more use of groups so whereas in the first project I mentioned the activities were teacher-fronted with a low level of interaction and it was a lot of one teacher, one learner at the board here we had groups of learners and not so many with the teacher alone we also found that there were more active affordances where learners were doing things with the technology they were active rather than receiving input for them so that was a C6% against 43% comparison there and we also found that there was less grammar and a lot more listening and speaking going on so an improvement in technological interactive and use of more active objectives if you like from the first project to the second. The second I mentioned again interactional engagement here we're talking about moving from drilling up to communication and we found in the second project that learners were more active there was more engagement at all levels there was less drilling even though we had more primary classes which is where we'd seen drilling in the first place and there was a lot more active engagement which increased with educational levels so a highest level of active engagement at the university level so let me show you some bar charts if you look at the bottom bar there you can see that there was 14% of listening 12% drilling 32% drill 9% simulation and the most that we saw was communication so across the different levels we had a lot more communication going on at university level you can see a large amount of communication secondary level it's evenly split between drill and sorry between display simulation and communication and it's a primary level that was a little more of the learners just listening or drilling so a lot more interactional engagement here and we can summarize that if we look also at the task-based language teaching part I looked at the 22 teachers over the 76 clips and I did the same kind of evaluation as I'd done with the French teachers in Airtel 1 and I found that they were much more task oriented so this is good because this is really a focus of the project this time so it was clear that the teachers were much more convinced if you like that task-based language teaching was the way to go although we saw some variability across language teaching the languages that were being taught across countries education level and even type of technology but we probably don't have enough data to be able to tease that out in statistically meaningful ways so that gives us a sort of overview of what kinds of practices and resources teachers are using in the context that we've been working in the project and now we want to know why is this and what are the challenges and what reasons seem to be behind the this type of adoption so now I'm going to look a little bit more about what my master's teachers are doing and what teachers in workshops and webinars can tell me about what they're doing in their classroom and maybe five minutes on this which would be a little bit longer than Theresa wanted to give me but she'll jump in if she wants me to go quicker because the slides are definitely going to be available so workshops and webinars working on language teaching and technology open educational practices and using a participant questionnaire after these workshops and webinars to follow up and see what people can tell us about what they're doing so this follow-up was done by using a 20-minute online questionnaire which I built on google forms these participants from projects and teaching programs looking at technology and pedagogy and asking for also some evidence or some details if you like of teaching activities and lesson plans that teachers are using so different questions on these different dimensions and then some findings which I'm still working on these I have a chapter hopefully coming up in a new book a collective volume on open educational practices but I'm sharing some preliminary results here where I have responses mostly from the teachers that I have been working with at the University of Nice so the bulk of the respondents to my questionnaire were lower secondary EFL teachers so working with 11 to 15 year olds in French middle schools they have the masters from our university they're in their late 20s and they've been teaching for three to five years they I had them fill out the Europas questionnaire which you can find online and they rated themselves as independent digital users so that's number two on a three-point scale they said that they were using communicative language teaching and task-based language teaching approaches and yet there was a little bit of conflict because when I asked them about their attitudes to language teaching and acquisition they seem to show fairly conservative views so they wanted to use these practices but somehow weren't exactly coherent in their views of language teaching with respect to those practices their technology is kind of useful to know what they had with this and I'm going to tell you what they're saying so they tended to have a single computer in the classroom with internet and a projector they use google apps they use vlc for for digital audio and they use online sources such as youtube and quizlet and dictionaries and so on they report that they find the materials online but they tend not to share with other colleagues and the only interact with people that they already know so people that they studied with or the colleagues at the in their schools but not so much on twitter facebook or on other networks online the when I asked them about their objectives their main objectives were to get learners motivated or to keep them motivated and to provide individualized feedback these were the things that they most wanted to be able to do in their teaching um so I mentioned this little conflict between they said this is the method they use communicative language teaching or task-based language teaching but when I asked them about their beliefs about language teaching and learning 48 of this group said errors should be corrected immediately to avoid the formation of bad habits so as you know this is a behaviorist approach to language teaching which is pretty much incompatible with communicative and task-based approaches um 78 aim to teach simple before complex grammar rules so this question it's not so easy to interpret because in language in tblt and clt there's not so much focus on teaching of grammar rules so it could be seen as a separate question on the other hand we do expect that if you're working in task-based language teaching you probably don't think of a progression of simple to complex grammar um you think of teaching the structures that they need in order to fulfill the communicative objectives that they have um when I looked at their materials so some of the teachers were happy to show me lesson plans and units that they'd been working with and they pretty much revealed that they're working with a grammar syllabus that they had vocabulary exercises that they had really incomprehension exercises and that the task-based or communicative approachy um objectives tended to come in in the form of a final task once this grammar and vocabulary had been explicitly taught or pre-taught and let me show you some of their comments uh an efl teacher said the ipad's still my best friend and now teaching with it looking forward to have kids using some of them at the same time somebody else said I'm trying to integrate all things technological in Italian teaching if only to try and motivate the middle schoolers of my school last year we started using class sets of iPads with the pupils and we see that they like activities on screen much better even if it's the same as on paper so a little bit of commentary on the technologies that they're using um and then a question about this uh reluctance to share that I just mentioned so somebody said in an email after filling out my questionnaire they said I completed your survey and to be honest I was quite reluctant sharing my teaching materials I don't feel completely confident about it especially if I have to send it to you you've always been kind and non-judgmental about my work so here it is so we can feel that these teachers uh are nervous about showing what they're doing in the classroom and this teacher said I was inspired by an existing chapter made by a colleague found on internet but I adapted almost everything maybe because I didn't feel comfortable teaching with something I didn't come up with so this is another another comment that comes up a notion that a teacher should create their own materials that perhaps the most important part of the teacher's work is the preparation of those materials and so this is an obvious break on adopting open practices if people feel they feel reluctant to share they don't want people to judge what they're doing and they also feel somehow that it's cheating to take other people's materials and that that's not what a good teacher does so we can see the challenges here conclusions then um I want to say here that I think that call teacher education can really support pedagogical transformation and in structured funded projects it's a very good place to do it the challenges that we have experienced in our projects then has been understanding and implementing effective pedagogical choices so we see some gratuitous interactivity interactivity we see some artificial pretext for tasks and we see a preference for traditional pedagogical exercises as I was just saying there and then the second challenge of reluctance to share begun local communities of practices because of ambivalent feelings about the utility and about the acceptability of taking others work and using them in the classroom so as I say I'm working on these this questionnaire to compare the project and workshop with seminar and with semester course participants I'm also working on a new project which I'll give a little plug here this is less on languages and more on open practices more generally and we're looking more at higher education than school practices but that's really not the main thing I'm looking at here school practices so I'll be very happy to have your questions here let me remind you of my title my name that's my twitter handle that's my wordpress and that's the direct link for the references to what I've been talking about today so um a little bit longer than allowed but I hope it was useful to you and I'm ready for any questions that you might have Shona thank you so much and you did such a grand job to get all of that in such a short space of time so you're very welcome to overrun this it's so rich actually the things that you've given us here and the resources I'm just going to share that link again to your blog post so that people can follow up and I'm interested as I was listening to you in the in the resignation and what resonates with my own experience of teacher practices and I'm sure there are others in the room as well who will be aware and have a take on this but I did some work for a project within Warwick around open educational practices in higher education and through the research that I did with with students we worked together and and tried to get a picture of the barriers to adoption of open practices there are many things in what you're saying that that resonate with that particularly the anxiety of around sharing and I can imagine in a school situation that that anxiety is every bit as strong in the UK as as you were finding in France it's this worry that somebody is judging you and and it really worries me that people as professional educators feel this way because in fact we need as a community to sort to support each other and if we're going to grow and change our practice it's actually the interactions that we have with each other that helps us do that so perhaps you know the kind of rather bureaucratic approach that has been taken certainly in the UK in schools has helped disempower people from actually finding their own agency in terms of evaluating and reconnecting with their practice absolutely I think I think I kind of expected that teachers would be worried about sharing materials because we can see when we're working with them they feel a bit reluctant even sharing them with you as the teacher educator but maybe what surprised me this time was to really understand that they also thought it was cheating that if you go and find someone's well designed resources and you just use them in the classroom somehow you're cheating because you're not creating your own resources and this is bad obviously because it means people don't share and don't take what's available but it's also bad because it shows that people don't understand teachers don't feel that a good interpretation of someone else's materials implementing it in the classroom is a very skilled thing to do it's very important and if sometimes I think of this with younger teachers less experienced teachers when you watch them in the classroom and they've thought so much about the design of the activities that they don't think about the implementation and just implementing someone else's materials is a huge job on itself it's a particularly respectable job and somehow we don't let them see that that's very important and I think it's because of inspections it's because we're working at a distance and it's always easier to look at the lesson plan than it is to go look at somebody teaching so we somehow pass this message that the materials are important and not the rest absolutely yeah and that in fact what you are doing needs to be informed by theory and you need to keep coming back to that basis I think and I think you know the the pragmatics of actually designing for learning under the pressures the time pressures and I'm sure they're very similar in France as they are in the UK prevents us having the headspace sometimes to actually think about what we're doing and why we do it I was particularly interested in the in the contrast of these two these two groups that you talked about the iTilt and iTilt2 where you know once you had put more input and support and in in place people started to change their practice more readily and and it worries me that sometimes we take the support out of and the time factor out of the equation and just say well you should be teaching like this well you know how how can you if you don't have the breathing space to think about what you're doing and why you're doing it and maybe even to compare your practice with those of others and Celine's raising the question about this feeling of cheating and something that perhaps feeds into that a little bit one of the things I use with my pre-service well they're actually undergrads of languages who have expressed an interest in teaching language is to run a feed from the mfl twitterati into their into their vle page I haven't asked them to go on twitter I know they're a bit anxious about that but if you watch the feed from the mfl twitterati they do a lot of sharing of resources between each other and you know you'll see people putting out a call have you got something to teach the preterite in Spanish or whatever so there's a sort of culture there that helps us think more about the community of practice that is teaching a professional community of practice and it gives us permission therefore to actually participate so yeah I think it's really interesting to think about the concept of teaching perhaps in the frame of thinking about things like creative commons licensing so you know when you are sharing you're you're sharing a piece of yourself and you're but you're also having maintaining some control over what can happen so I've got a gift for you Shona and it's a gift I think you may be already aware of but it's a gift for everybody who's participating here and it comes from the University of Texas it was shared online yesterday and it's part of their celebration and a contribution to open educational week so they have put together a free and open course around adopting open practices and an introduction to OER they've called it and that just the choice of that title is interesting because perhaps OER is more established than open practice but to me a set of resources don't mean a great deal unless they're being used so this this little course that you can do and and it's again released under creative commons licensing so you can even sort of import it and and adopt and adapt it and remix it helps induct people into the skills of effective open practice because certainly the work of Catherine Cronin and others that we would be quite familiar with in the open ed SIG tells us that practicing openly is is a complex situated and quite a personal activity and people do kind of have to make their own way and their own set of decisions according to their context so but it's interesting for people I think to know that they are supported in that and that there is a community of practice of teachers who are interested in just this thing I know we've had some scandals in terms of language resources that have been made available freely online and then taken and sold so you know and that sort of thing really does upset people and I can understand that and you know that's why we really need the copyright literacy to understand what we do when we share things openly online and I think that coral book will be really helpful it'd be nice to see some translations of it actually to have localized versions of it but yeah just to come back to that idea of resources versus practices you know if we didn't worry so much I know it takes a long time to prepare things but if we didn't worry so much about the actual teaching materials the things that you're going to take in like handouts or links to things or questions or whatever your teaching unit is if that wasn't so valuable and we put more value onto what you do with them in the classroom then maybe people wouldn't get so upset about things being stolen because you can't steal someone's practice you can only steal their the supports in French it's called you know it's called teaching support like the materials and I think you know MIT was one of the first universities to put open courseware on and people were saying that why are you putting these materials on and you're saying well that's not it the materials that's not the education that's not what counts so it's okay for it to be there and for other people to look at it we can still have students come to university and pay to get this training because what we put online is not the whole thing and I think it's important for us to as I showed a little example up there in the chat of how we can try to bring the focus back to what actually happens in the classroom rather than the materials that you use by having teachers work together and teach their own and teach the same lesson so I did this with pre-service teachers where I had them working groups of three or four in different schools they taught the same lesson they filmed each other teaching it and then they talked about it and for them it was very interesting it was quite a revelation to see that the very same set of materials would produce very different classroom outcomes depending on who was teaching and who was in the class and how they participated what time day it was and so on so these are much harder to to work with and I think that's why people are not going towards the practices and focusing on the resources that's a really useful and interesting perspective Shona I'm very grateful for that I think I think what we've tried to do within the SIG is to to focus in on the practices and also to focus in on how we recognize engagement with the practices so in some cases that's through open badges and Coral have a great little system for open badges for practitioners that you can earn and I've had my students just recently in the virtual exchange that we're doing with with Poland review some open resources in order to earn their badge from Coral as an OER reviewer and I think that sort of recognition helps then because it helps to build a community of people you can look to for suggestions and discussions and yes Deb you're just back in time to talk badges Deb and I have talked open badges for a long long time and yes there's some there's some great resources from the Coral website there I'd be interested to get some perspectives from other countries because clearly we've got a French and a UK perspective on language teaching here. Right Scotland great Sandy thank you fear of sharing is just more evidence that teachers tend to have a hugely high standards towards their learning materials yes I think this is true I think sometimes we let the the good enough be the you know the perfect be the enemy of the good enough whatever the expression is you know we have to accept that we are under time pressure our resources and I'm I'm certainly guilty hold my hand up this on my slideshare account you will find slides with typos every now and again when I spot them I take them down and change them but I kind of think well actually it's more about the approach and the approach is part of the practice as Shona was saying that you kind of okay this is how I was going to I'm going to deal with a particular issue that needs to be dealt with in my context and I won't necessarily get it right but this is my first stab but this is this is where I'm going on this but it does take a degree of almost a sort of sort of safety blanket and having people on side like yourself as experienced teacher trainers who say you know this this quality issue is kind of secondary to the real quality which is the quality of the interaction you're having with your learners so you know it's always easy to find typos I can find typos and problems and quality issues in coursebooks any day of the week once they're published and they're fixed of course at least when we're working in the digital we can amend and create and improve and iteratively work on OER but our practice is probably the most important point in terms of how we interpret what we do and how we improve what we do we had a comment earlier from Marjorie I'm not sure if you're still with us can we have a Croatian perspective on teaching how how do Croatian teachers view openness and open practice would be interested too and we have Celine here from France as well Mariona hi yes hi thank you yeah so Croatian teachers it's similar like what we discussed before this thing about cheating if they find the elements online on internet or get from their colleagues they would use it but the general practice is that every teacher prepares his or her own materials and it's a kind of a time consuming and perhaps linked to the society's vision and image of a teacher so good teacher should invest time to prepare his or her own materials otherwise his colleagues tend to see it and students and teacher and parents tend to see this person as a bad teacher I don't know but it's a kind of an image that is stuck here in Croatia and which is also related to the general image in the society that teacher's job is not very important it's an easy job and anybody can do it so maybe a few hands of worms there thank you Mariona that's really interesting it's kind of when you think about you know the last thing you'd want to you'd want to stop people doing is creating context-specific resources for teaching because you know that engagement I think is is really important but it's rarely recognized as you say that there's rarely recognition of the importance the significance of that and I suppose my shift in mindset that's happened really since the sort of normalization of digital creation has been that it's the first 15 years of my teaching career were fairly traditional so the resources that I created I shared with other teachers who were in my school but otherwise they were stored in in folders and they were part of my sort of repertoire of resources but since we've gone digital now I tend to think well that that might be of interest to people beyond my classroom beyond my immediate context and then you kind of navigate the tricky and sometimes daunting practice of sharing things slightly more widely so one of the one of the tools I've become aware of just recently I haven't actually used it yet has been something called wiki slides I for a long time used wiki err it is slide wiki sorry and get the right thing and put the link into here so you know you spend all this time thinking about the materials that you're creating and how they'll meet the needs within your classroom but if if you make them available on a platform that actually shows that they're attributable to you then you're making yourself visible to other stakeholders to say look I am engaged in this practice and this is something I'm interested in and my level of copyright literacy and digital understanding is greater than you know than it was than before digital practice came along I yeah I think it's worth taking a look at I haven't actually moved my slides to it yet but I'm thinking about it was it was actually produced as part of an open project there we go and we've got Kelly in the room Kelly Kelly can you put your mic on and tell us a little bit about your repository work because I think that's also very very very relevant to what Shona's been telling us about if you have the opportunity I don't know if you're in an open plan obviously it might not be sorry I just had to run like get the dog to stop barking but you have to meet Shona so good mine aren't sleeping quietly so just to mention slide wiki obviously it's a European project but there are a couple of key people that are a part of the school I'm in electronics and computer science at Southampton they're a part of that project as well so I'm involved I look after Edshare which is an open source digital content platform and it was created at Southampton many many many years ago but was all part of this helping people transition and change culture around sharing in the institution so at its outset it wasn't about openness it was about helping people taking content out of these closed spaces or even on personal sort of network spaces and getting encouraging staff to share with one another just within a school so within what feels like a safe space and then to help those that were perhaps more confident to then start sharing university-wide and then the system also allows the option to share openly as well so it's got a huge amount of flexibility that people can utilize it in the ways in which they're comfortable but at its heart it is about openness so the metadata is all open so what we find and this is linked with the e-print software which is used for publication purposes is it helps people on that journey of transitioning from closed to open so even if it's it's one step to get it off a personal web space you know which no one else oh sorry not even personal web space say a network drive or a USB stick it gets off there or it gets out of a closed VLE and into a place where other people can see that it's visible so even if they chose to only share it with colleagues or whether the school other people can see it exists and once people can see it exists and you know they can contact each other they can network with one another and then suddenly oh yes yeah that's fine you can share that I'll let you have a look at that and it takes people on that that gradual journey towards sharing more widely and then hopefully sharing more openly as well yes and I think Kelly you know it's worth pointing out here as well the work that Kate Boothwick did on on your platform for languages and again there was this sort of incremental sharing and community building that happened through a sort of social aspect of the repository and I've always had misgivings about repositories because repositories tend to be places where things go to repose and you never see them again just like my folders that you know stuff is it sits there so you need a reason a purpose to go there and you need a community and I think humbox and languages box which were I think early iterations of the software that Kelly's talking about were really good at recognizing that importance of of a community around a set of resources and this incremental approach again is something that we've adopted with my students because they're very very reluctant to do anything openly and so we've used our e-portfolio software Mahara to give them the opportunity to decide in terms of permissions who can see what when and to think that through. I think we've talked in the open edsig in previous webinars about how open can become closed because if I've made decisions to make something openly available I may at some point decide to reverse those decisions because of whatever because of some sort of vulnerability perhaps because of working in a context that's perhaps more difficult to be open in and some of us work in very in very vulnerable contexts in some countries. So it is quite a personal decision and it's helpful to to support people in thinking that through. Thank you, thank you, it's another contribution as well. Yes, HP5, I've been using HP5 for a little while now using the org. What I'm a little bit worried and disconcerted about is HP5 is now going to be encouraging people to create and maintain their resources in hp5.com which will be a paid resource and we're seeing this increasingly as our internet spaces which have been free and open are monetizing. So although everything you create through HP5 and I've certainly encouraged my students to use it can then be exported and then used through other platforms and things because it's an open source file type. It's kind of worrying that teachers will be asked to stomp up the cash because you know we're already I think as if we look at the profession and I'm at the point where I'm about to leave the profession really sort of 30 odd years on but I you know I worry about young people especially in the UK who are entering teaching with huge debts from their learning already struggling to be able to afford homes who are then being asked to fork out from the money that they earn more money to support their web presence or the tools that they use in order to do their jobs and that's a little bit worrying and yes Kelly the commercialization of data needs to be considered as well as access. I think there are some very big issues to think about in this area and there's sort of issues that I think for us as maybe digital evangelists to a point because you know I think we've all experienced the positives of actually engaging with technology we have to adopt a kind of a critical approach to what we're advocating as well and be aware that it's about more than just imitating practice it's about knowing what is actually going on behind the scenes particularly with algorithms and things interfering. I found this I'm just going to add this link to the chat which is a post recently from Mahabali who is intensively engaged in discussing open and writes from from Egypt which again brings another sort of perspective into the discussion where you know our teaching context can be very different and I think she is very good at exploring some of the complexities of open practice and thinking about who gets marginalized from our discussions and our practice because once we actually turn to technology to deliver tools so we maybe select iPads to be used in a classroom or we decide that we're all going to use a particular tool there are ramifications and sometimes they are accessibility issues sometimes they are simply making some people within our teaching cohort uncomfortable because perhaps they don't have the financial means to participate or perhaps through disabilities they don't have as much access as the rest of us sort of take for granted with the technology I think for me it's that critical aspect of reflection and no one person is going to have all the insights needed so you know for me that puts the emphasis back on the importance of a community of practice and that we uncover some of the vagaries some of the things going on behind the black boxes that we're perhaps less than aware of and we question them and we ask ourselves who is being excluded yeah Salvador do you would you like to use your mic and perhaps tell us a little bit more about your context tell us where you're from or perhaps just pop that into the chat and Selina as well we haven't heard from you about your context if there's anything you'd like to contribute it would be really valued because the the purpose of today's event really as well as sharing the wonderful research that that Shona has been doing and and it's as I said earlier a very rich resource is to find out what more we can learn from each other Reykjavik in Iceland wow okay great so I think we've gone beyond my four countries now we're into a fifth excellent great to have you here what's the attitude to openness in Iceland we were in Finland obviously not very long ago and they did seem to be a lot of interest in in Finland so do feel free to use the text chat Salvador if you prefer that's fine um so if you do want to use the mic if you come down to the bottom right hand corner and click on the pink button at the bottom of the screen and you'll see a wheel and that wheel will help you connect your microphone or run a test and connect you and so yes we have lots of lots of support here from folk who will help you if you do want to to use that I think the contextual element of this and different government and societal attitudes towards teaching as Amariana discussed earlier is very significant isn't it I I've been working with through Clavier for for some time with French higher education professionals and there yes you can see there is a difference of expectation and I'm trying to tell you about the situation about open that's great thank you in Iceland it's not on the agenda right now it used to be three or four years ago but right now there is uh somehow other issues in education so I am with a very small group of people trying to get it on the agenda people to understand why it's important for especially for such a very small language group we are only 300 000 people speaking Icelandic so it's hugely important it totally is I had I had totally erroneously assumed Salvo that I would hear a male voice so you're very welcome and that's really interesting because clearly you're an open practice advocate and certainly open practice for small language groups is very useful we're seeing that you know in minority languages just in terms of raising the visibility of those languages um it's very important um yes so we need perhaps we need you to to uh get to go along to the choral website and and get some accreditation for your advocacy of open practice in Iceland making things visible because I think that tends to be the point at which um stakeholders start to take notice that you know you have a particular um belief in terms of the social value of working in the open and and often that's that's just uh as you say it falls off the agenda it's often neglected so it's very important that we do keep that uh visible and available I'm I'm very aware that we're coming to the end of our time and I'm going to because I know that there are going to be um other things that people didn't feel they had time to say I've just set up a little jam board here um and ah okay this is right okay Celine thank you yes professional self-confidence yes like isn't that so important Shona that we that we allow people the freedom and and yeah the trouble is I mean I don't know where Celine is in France or what context you're working with but what what strikes me maybe this is the same in Croatia or in other places where people working in compulsory school um context you have the inspection you're the the during pre-service training the big fear is the inspector looking at the class at the end of the year and so uh it's hard to come out of the idea of um being a student and being uh somehow low in the hierarchy and and to be someone who stands at the front of the class and makes their own decisions because you have official programs and you have an inspector who will come to see if you're using and respecting the official programs so uh when you talk about agency here it's it's um let's say it's not something they're expecting to hear so we're saying that actually our systems are limiting the agency of our teachers just the tad yes yes which is which is definitely something we as parents wouldn't want to see and you know as a teacher within a classroom you don't want to feel that your students have limited agency you want them to to own their learning and take ownership of their learning yeah and i think there'll be a knock-on effect if the teacher does if the teacher feels they're taking orders from the ministry and the inspectors then they probably feel they want to give orders to their learners whereas if the teacher feels the teacher is available to or is open or allowed somehow to to make their own decisions as as professionals to use saline's word then they might then be more willing to give the learners more agency and we know for language teaching but i'm sure for other types of education it's very important that you take the language to use it you appropriate it yourself you don't just repeat what other people have told you to repeat yes i couldn't sum it up better than that show no that was absolutely brilliant i want to take that clip and play it everywhere because that's so important i mean we we talk as teachers about modeling and and yet we're not telling our stakeholders that we can't model what we value um oh just added the joining the joining the open dots padlet link to the jamboard thank you yes thank you i didn't mention the jamboard is simply a place where you can click on a t and that's a sticky note and choose a color and add any thoughts so we will keep this open going forward so we can perhaps build on today's webinar and think about the connections that we can make to support each other to advocate open practice but open practice with your eyes open that will ring bells for shona from work we did invested quite a lot of time in some time back um critical open practice um helping to support people thinking about their decisions in the digital um and i think as an as a group as a network we can support each other and i'm so grateful to you all for coming and making the effort to join the session today i think we've had a very rich and very useful interaction and i hope we'll carry it forward i have to finish off just with an open edsig slide just to remind you of who we are and why we've brought this together today so let's just um oops sorry it popped up and then it flashed while we were looking for it let me just say to risa thank you very much for the invitation and thank you very much for your expert um organization of this space and and that's not the word i want i i thought that you were you did an excellent job and getting people in and able to say things it it makes a difference i think sometimes webinars can feel a bit like you're broadcasting and you don't really know who's there and who's listening where's here you you did a great job in getting people involved and so we got some feedback and some ideas from other people so you're really very skilled at that and thank you oh you're very very welcome and thank you and thanks for everybody to everybody who's contributed so we've done this for the open education special interest group as you can see on the slide there we're supported by the Association for Learning Technology and they've helped us set up our own website and space where we can interact and you'll find us just by googling open edsig do come and join the conversation and uh yeah i hope you all have a wonderful um open education week there is there are so many more gifts out there thanks to open education week and i'm glad that we've had the opportunity to uh to offer our um our part in that and great telly uh kelly if you'd like to pop um pop that information onto the jam board that would be brilliant thank you salvo we feel for you and we're certainly going to support you in in advocating for openness um and thank you saline for coming along merci we have a strong contingent from france which is great i'll switch the recording off now