 You can't see this, you can't hear it for years or so, so after you guys go to sleep, it's like, so you can't get any time to sleep. I mean, that's fine, but it's only for a year. I'm trying 90 minutes or so to explain this thing that I do, and it's been a great exercise the last couple weeks for parents because I don't normally explain how I do it, and so I was trying to figure out, it's really strictly helpful, artistically, to be like, well, I know what I do, and I think I know it works. But why does it work? I kind of dissect it, and it's been really fascinating, and I kind of am excited to know that, I don't think I know why. I'll preface this by saying, everything I'm going to tell you is what I do, it's like an editorial, you know, it's my opinion, it's how it works for me, it's just how I've solved a lot of problems, and I'm a creative artist who has problems and boundaries, and then I get really excited, and then that's gone, because I'm solving problems, and fixing something, overcoming an obstacle, then I think it's super creative, and 10,000 things style is super problematic, because you're constant in constraints. So that's where I get really excited, so I think that's what it is, that kind of MacGyver-ish approach to stuff, you know, and even music. But I said it does work for me, it's not like a how-to, it's not like you have to do it this way. But I've done it for over 20 years, you know, over 40 productions, so I'm starting to learn like there are things that work, and maybe I'll save you some time, I'm going to give you some vocabulary that will help save you some time with your musicians, and that can be really helpful. So the way I got into this was as an actor, I worked with Michelle on a couple of shows as an actor, and then I found myself sort of translating her and the musician for that particular production. And it wasn't as complex as any of this, those musicians are really simplified, but still I could tell she would speak theater and they would speak music, and they were saying the same thing, and they kept, you know, just missing each other, and I would sort of go, no, but she wants this, or what he wants is this, and they go, oh, of course. And then Desi said, do you want to do this? Do you like to be a musician? And she knew I was a musician as well. And I said, sure, I'll try it. And so in the first one, Emperor of the Moon, and it's grown and growing, and what I'm discovering is, and what Michelle's discovered too, and she talks about it being the light, is that we're sort of keep pushing the boundaries and think of what it can withstand, and we haven't reached it yet, we kind of haven't masked out yet. And because we had guest directors who come in, that also shows me different possibilities, because it depends on your aesthetic. Michelle is super spare in case you haven't taken that up. She's very spare in terms of that. And she and I, you know, we do this great tug-of-war dance where I want more and she wants less, and we both win a few, we lose a few, and then we end up sort of right in the middle and go, oh yeah, that's what it should be. But I've had some guest directors who really want more, you know, and really want almost lush stuff underneath it and want little moments underscored, which is really challenging to be fun. So it honestly depends on all the artists involved. I'm trying to be linear about all this, but I'm going to end up circling back, remembering I forgot to mention something. And I'm also pretty sure that when you lead, most of what I said is like, duh, like yeah, of course, that makes total sense. Why is that a mystery? But simple things, for me, like real simplicity is really hard to get to. It's true simplicity takes a lot of effort to sort of get to it. And so yeah, first thing is, so this is sort of a, this is not a sort of kit of like, here's what it looks like at your show. This is almost like all my shit. If I brought all of it, Nancy would kill me. But I wanted to just sort of give you the aesthetic of kind of what I looked like in the corners. You know, there's always a collection of stuff. Kind of looks like a cockpit when you get in there, it's like loading into something, because I have to be able to reach everything. And so that you end up surrounding yourself with your stuff. And that, because there's no sets, and there's no other things to look at, actually, this is actually an interesting focal point for audience members in one of the shows sometimes. You know, to sit there and actually just take it in, and wonder what is that going to sound like. And because they do know at that point, like, oh, that's the music guy, the stuff's going to come from this corner. And it changes depending on the show. It changes up depending on what needs are. You know, and the thing that I found myself too with Michelle in doing this sort of time is, you know, music vocabulary shares so much with acting and with theater. You know, we talk about pacing, we talk about rhythm, we talk about dynamic, we talk about all that stuff. Improvisation uses same words. And so for those of you who are not musicians, I don't want to, like, I'm not going to try to train you, you know, to be a musician in this sort of session. But just to sort of let you in on the fact that you're a musician, you're a musical. And because of that, you actually have access to what this could be. So why is it necessary? So we don't have the bells and whistles. We don't have sets to tell us where we are. We need something, something else. And sound is a great, easy thing to provide. Except that we can't take laptops into facilities, prisons. Sound design today is tech. It's all tech driven. You know, that's where it's going. And this is going in the exact opposite direction. So we're kind of looking for, I think, you know, somebody with some acting experience who has some musical experience, maybe play. I happen to play a lot of instruments, not because I'm a virtuoso on any of them. It's just, it's honestly only comes from bringing upstate New York or school that a ton of money in the country for a music program. And so we have a tiny school, and so the band director made all the students all instruments so that he could have a band. So, you know, you'd be in sixth grade and you'd have a virtuoso sax and a clarinet and an alto sax, because he had to have that. You know, so that was actually the only reason I went the way I am. And you're kind of probably also somebody with some percussion experience that's, that would be where I'd start. Okay, so start with your percussionists who are also actors. And if they play a keyboard a little bit, that's kind of helpful but not at all essential. But the percussionist stuff, they're such a huge palette. And most, if you can get percussionists to get really excited about this kind of gig, because their heads are always thinking, like, what does that sound like if I smack that? You know, what if I drop that? What does it sound like? And that's the kind of sort of inventiveness that really helps. And so the fact that this is not technological also kind of supports, you know, it's all stripped down. It's very bare and exposed. It's a synthesized, hydroelectric, techno-recorded soundtrack, you know, coming out of a speaker, I think it fights with the player, whatever player, to it. I just think it fights with this kind of face-to-face acoustic acting that's happening. But what's kind of neat is, because modern audiences like Marcel's, you know, we're used to seeing people in movies and you're used to seeing music under it or hearing music under it and you see a close-acting, so that's why this is appealing. So to introduce some subtle and just point, actually, it isn't horrible. Like, you wouldn't almost end up being in space, would feel melodramatic if over done. But there's something about, like, also this is, you have this opportunity sometimes to just bring something quiet up under the fact that these two people are seeing each other for the first time. Or, you know, and I can always, because we've done so many shows, I can only keep the last one in my head before I dump it, so I'll probably be referencing electrolytes, that was the last one. But, you know, we had moments of, you know, when the rest of you saw each other. There was just, we had to have just little things that told you that's a special thing between these two people. I don't know what it is, and the other piece that Michelle and I really do agree on very much is, like, I never wanted to tell you how to feel with the music. It really sounds like that's kind of where you're led, like, you feel this way about this, you feel this way about this character. What I'm trying to do is, similar to the sets and things, is to provide an outline so that your imagination can fill in the rest. You know, and definitely giving you hints and kind of, like, orienting you maybe in a direction. But I don't want to fill it all out before you complete them. So that's why you're really excited when I was trying to figure out how to explain this, because I realized, so I was, like, trying to examine myself, what do I do, you know, in that, just in that specifically when I'm talking about outlines. I tend to use a lot of, so I'm going to talk musical stuff, and if it doesn't mean anything to you, that's okay. For those of you who don't, it doesn't mean something that's cool too. I use a lot of open intervals and big intervals, so octaves, if you're not musical, octaves are, like, basically, they give, like, different shades of blue, right, they're all blue, but different shape. So, for example, so if I'm just going to do a single note, but that's different than by bringing that, it's just octaves. You're not filling it anything in it, you know, before. And it has more weight, it has more presence, it's not filled in at all. And then, so bagpipes, any kind of drone instruments that are very grounded in folk-based, you know, that sort of scream elemental, they're all going to be based, they're all going to have these, you know, fifths, or they're going to have fourths. You know, and they just sort of live out, I mean, this volume pedal, I'm using on my left foot, and in fact, you can just, like, you can bring it up really slowly, and then, you know, all you have to do on top of that, you know, is a you know, just simple kind of, and it wakes up the space a little bit, you get into the air, and that kind of stuff. So if I'm filling, so that's, you know, pulling up those kinds of things, those open intervals, I can fill in more, and then suddenly, like, not just in chord land and music, and you know, you know, now it's interesting that you can go from outline, which is really, seems evocative to me, and then you go to part, and then you tint. So you kind of want to be careful, I think, of that. So, so I'll just talk about that a little bit, just like, so what I was doing there, if you're talking to a musician, and trying to get and sort of figure this out as well, is I work a lot in layers, so, oh wait, wait, so the whole reason the science thing works is so the harmonic series is the physical reason why we have pitch, and the way it works. So you take any string, if you pinch it at the halfway point, you get the octave, and if you slide that by half, you get the fifth, if you slide that by half, it does this natural thing where it starts with octets, fifths, fourths, it doesn't get to those other intervals until later. So the basic elemental sort of sound that exists are those open chords, which is why we respond to them, like I said, like bagpipes, any sort of folk, air, drone instrument, is going to have that same thing. So, but I also do a lot of things that you might want to talk, ask a musician or percussionist if I'm queuing an insurance or something like that. It can be as simple as the easiest thing is just like a bow, or if you can layer it and add something else to it, it's those two things where you can do three things and they're a full pedal to go. I mean it's not like such top rocket science, it just sounds really more interesting to my ear to have different colors, you know, mixing together. One thing I started doing, which, again, you know, so you hand over this like that, which is interesting, it's got a bite to it's sharpest stuff, but you can do two and that's suddenly more interesting. And then you get three things that you can go back and forth. And again, it's just a matter of like thinking of like the one thing you do is kind of like acting, right? You can't just go with one color all the time before everybody, but you know, so what's the thing you're going for? What other shapes of that are there that you can access, you know? And honestly, it's just something about just adding more, just adding more things to it. Now I'm going to contradict myself and I don't want you, I don't want to make you feel a certain way, I don't want you to tell you how to feel, but sometimes you need to, you want to signal characters, especially if there's a real hierarchy of power in your story. So you've got either your buffoons and you've got your royalty, you've got the peasants, you've got whoever. That idea of how do you keep track of all these characters? This stuff can help so, so much. Karen often, not all the time, but often plays fight-fall staff and like every messenger we've ever had. Karen has the longest back story for messengers, you know, ever. Perfect. But, you know, for like, so over in the corner here I've got these are pieces of salvaged blackboard, you know, from a school blackboard, and that also sort of goes in line with like a low tech thing, like you can buy an expensive instrument which then you have to make sure you need to be careful when you go on tour. Or you can find a chunk of this, have friends of yours with a saw, slice them up, and, you know, make your own little silo film by putting it over a weatherstrip. And it's going to be way more interesting because it's not going to, they have kitsch, but they're not too, like, sort of, it's not going to want everything discorded, but the less precious and the less refined everything is, it just, again, sues the style of performing this way. So, you know, it's a single, you know, Karen happens to enter or something, might be as simple as, you know, and she's on and talking or whatever. Or, like a lot of times in the what we just discovered, you know, Shakespeare, there's always the show up, you know, because somebody show up. And it's much tougher than it seems to be able to show up sonically, and just with what I was doing. It just seems to start to make sense. And then another thing, so I'm just sort of being in different directions, the long devise in the Shakespeare, like the, I decided to leave and I'm leaving. 12 lines later, I finally left. But they've actually, they decided to leave when they said so. So, there is that energy that impulse to leave needs to be recognized. And so often we'll end up doing a thing of, you know, you know, I gotta get out of here. And then they start to leave, but they talk a little more. But you can still do something to keep them activated while they're going, while they're going, while they're going, and then they're finally gone. You know that? It kind of helps, it just sort of I don't know how to describe it and it took me a while to figure out that one. Because, I mean, listening to the, so here's something else too, you'll get, you'll hire somebody to do this job. What they'll start doing is they listen and they don't watch it. I almost never watch the show unless there's a psyche that I'm trying to really line up the sound on. And that doesn't happen a lot. We try not to be too hammer on the nail for that because that gets getting cartoony. And when it's funny, it's great. When it needs to be funny it works like a charm. But you listen to the show. Listen to the show, thank you. So, I will keep my eyes down and listen. And I found myself hearing them leave, and I wanted to play it, but then I was like, oh, they're still on stage. Why are they still on stage? I thought they were leaving. And then at dawn they're like, oh, they have decided to leave. They're just still there. Okay. So there's this thing, you know, like annoying monologues, it's a little piece of things. If you're approaching that way where you're turning a corner, right? Where does it do this? Where does it do that? Sometimes those can be moments of sound. And Jen isn't here somewhere. Yeah. So, she's so funny. She told me outside that she saw Winter's Tale back in 2004 which I did. And we got a guest director and she was really non-underscoring. And I did so much more underscoring than I've kind of been used to. Could you talk about that one? My first 10,000th show, I was 18. Previously, I thought Shakespeare was married, and overdone. And I see this show in like McCain's speech about being suspicious that his wife is sleeping with his brother. I get with, like, starting to go on with the law and then something in this is just feeling of circling, sorry, coming in like, wait, and I just have to do it. Someone who had that thing. See, it's on the theater as a teenager, but not a ton. Like, it helped bridge the gap between being a film watcher and being a theater watcher and it just made it so urgent going back to it and showing the audience. And it was really hard. I remember working when I was going to talk about it. It's like we had to go through line by line and it wasn't about, it was about me conversing with him and saying you need to tell me where you feel those shits, where are those, so that I can time you. And that's something you don't, and that's the beauty of this, is like you can't pull that off in a traditional theater production. You just can't, you just can't have a recordist counteract that accompanies the actor and then engages with the actor. So that's an advantage of this kind of work. And it's part of that listening thing that Michelle was talking about too, is I'm so listening to what's happening here. And then I also find that audience members will watch me listening and there's something just like with the acting and with each other. There's this, to me it's an act of respect to listen to someone else. They see you listen, they see people listening to one another. It instantly reads as respect, just whatever. And that becomes a thing. You know, that they're watching and they share with you the whole time and you don't want that. That's not engaging them as a bigger problem. But I'm here, I'm not hiding, we don't pretend to hide. We don't try to fill the screen or you know, don't look at P. It's there, you know, and you just have to hold that. Yeah. I'm here because you listen to the show so many times. Yeah. You know, previously I figured it's not an act or you're a little bit real, I didn't know that this should happen to me later. Are you tuned enough then that you can have, oh wait, did you make a shift on that one? You know what, so the way you tell example is a super rare example. It was so precise. I mean, I had like words highlighted a little code right to myself. Generally, I'm kind of, we can find a groove. It doesn't matter, it's too far too much from it. And you start to, and they, I think, I mean actors in China I mean, I forget to do things. I forget sounds and it totally throws them because they're, wait, whoa, you know, and it's really disturbing even though the audience obviously didn't hear a thing because that's why they didn't miss it. But they missed it, you know. So it's a big problem. So, you know, also logistics and limitations here. So there's the footprint of how much space I can take up. This is actually getting really good at compressing it. So, but it usually, this is the max. You just can't take up. We're in tiny rooms sometimes. And, you know, there's been days where I've been in another room because I couldn't be in the room with them. So I think there's like a doorway, another room over here, so I would be like here. I'm like, okay, okay. So, you know, you need to keep it mobile. And again, do you want to carry it? That's still the motto. But do you want to carry it? And then, so then you can then acoustics because this is all about sound, right? And this is one of the best spaces we ever perform in. So we always look forward to coming back here when we do our public shows because it's light enough. It's not reverberant. It's dead. It's just, it's kind of sweet. It's never like that. It's just from like really challenging to almost impossible. That's the scale that we have in mind. And there's a couple of sites that are just like the American Indian Center that we've done a couple of times. We're still trying to find our sweet spot getting in there with the right audience stuff but they have to switch the fan and the fan control. Nobody knows how to shut it off. It's on its own timer or something. And it just... And then suddenly it shuts off. And when it shuts off, the whole audience is like But it's also a reminder of the power of silence. I play a lot of silence and sound going away is super useful because so we talked a little bit about the fight scenes and dying. There's a lot of dying. So many characters dying. And I do that too sometimes. It's really effective. It's like, yeah, when you're dying and if it's a long death, which they usually are. How long are you going to die, man? Lions face drum a lot. It's just a normal kick drum from a drum set but if you loosen the heads so that it plays more like a tippity you can sort of tune it and get a soft soft mouth. But what we also discovered was so here's a bow and down here I've got these three things called crotales. They're just little brass discs that ring forever on strike. And they're sort of like a keyboard in that the sound will just come up. It seems to come up out of nowhere. If I bow it, it's just it's a little pierced and it's just right. Both of you, my kid, you know prone to headaches are going to be like, oh my god. But if this is half, it doesn't take much and just to keep that going and then if I silence it you know we die. That was gonna die. Because he was sitting there talking a lot and talking and she was sad and they were sad and everybody was sad. And his eyes closed but you're not sure he's dead because how could you tell? Except the sound stops and gets oh, okay. And again, you know, I can layer that in with a note from here and it's just again, just that thing about texturing kind of deal. And you can also get two of them that are past that apart. And it just sort of lives kind of out there. I think you want to suggest to your musician that if they have access to any chimes chimes are awesome. Chimes are my favorite things mostly because I can play it and I can go do something else and it keeps ringing. And that's not useful when you're all alone. Like hit something and do something else. Hit something, do something, do something. These are just wind chimes that I took apart. They're just giant wind chimes from Amazon. And really powerful stuff. And again, it just figured out over the last couple of weeks doing some reading. And one of the meditation techniques they use now is a teacher will bring a bell and tell the students, you know, raise your hand when you can't hear it anymore and they all stop. They all just listen, listen, listen, listen. And it finally fades away, you know, one by one they use their hand. And not only do you do it actively but your ear does it unconsciously, subconsciously. If you hear something like that you're tracking it. Even though you're not consciously tracking it, you don't have that until it stops. It's going to have a track that gets your attention somewhere. Whatever is happening is on stage you're kind of a little more too. You're a little more engaged. Part of your brain is listening to this. So it's keeping me there, keeping me there. So that's the total sense to me too. Just like the large intervals make sense. So back to the chimes. So Michelle has this term she's called Wonder Chimes. And I don't know what that means. It took me like two years. This is called a bell tree, Michelle. I got to give her names. It's like that's a bell tree. It's like whatever, Wonder Chimes. And some of this sounds like this is not unusual. Like that's like a recognizable thing, you know, and a lot of questions will have this kind of thing. But you can also encourage them to just now play it this way. You know. It's a little, it's a way that's not typically done. They're like, oh of course, we need to just do it once in a while. Yes. And then in terms of their case, like Wonder Green's on the table, you don't need a percussionist who has thousands of dollars in his strings and I discourage that. Again, you have to tour with it. It's beaten up. All my stuff is gross. The only thing this condo was nice once, was the hair. And the same with the cajon. But all my best symbols, like this one, these two, I got from the guy, he was giving away because they don't work anymore. This one has a crack in it, but because it has a crack in it, it sounds like this. And then listen. Do you hear how it just keeps like it's useless to a musician. That's useless garbage. So, which is awesome. And this one's warped. It just has that kind of thing going on. I did buy a real gong. Because a gong is an amazing, I mean, it's royal. And unless you grew up in completely off a grid and never saw any sort of TV, that would scream somehow important. Your brain would make sense, like, oh, that's an important person. But, so you can do it that way, but you can also, like, there's a little metal stick and you get the little zing where you can get on the side and you can con to that. It provides a bunch of different colors back to the bow. So, not only on the portales, but you need something so scary or weird. And the percussionists will know how to do this. Where you're just going the edges of symbols to get really weird sounds. And this one, you have to be careful when you're doing this, because that one, especially if you do it, pay attention. When I do this, pretty much half the audience turns to see how I did it. So, if they need to see something that's happening on stage, you need to have a timer, right? So that they don't miss it. And then, you know, toys. I love toys. So, kids side of the phone. It's awesome. Again, because the pitches aren't good at all. And you can combine it with the other one. So there's just, you know, some elements of that. The sort of shift gears a little bit. So, some of what I do is the foley artist kind of thing. You know, like radio play. I don't always do, it's hard to, you don't do like, what's that scratching in the snow or something that, you know, specific. But, you know, nature really fast and you're running from the car. You know, it's not, it makes total sense to have it. And they can come on, you know. It just sort of helps us understand that there's, you know, somebody's moving really quickly. But also, there's so much of these, so many of these plays have nature involved. You know, when you're outdoors, how do you do that? How do you do outside? Like, wind is so hard. I've never figured out wind. The closest, I can come sometimes, there's the trick of using a hose, a garden hose, and swinging it, and it makes like a whistling sound. Except it's so, in order to get the sound right, it's so distracting. It's like, it's not worth it. When the train whistles, train whistles are awesome. They are the best things. And then there's also little bird calls, which are also awesome. Because you can just, and it doesn't take much. And if you have, you know, an actor with you, and you do two of them, you know, at the same time, it's just enough to, like, inform the ear, we're outside, just make sure there's birds, and then you go away. Then you stop. You don't keep it going for the whole scene, because then you do want me to shut up. Tell the guy to stop doing this first. This is a little thing called a cricket. It's a percussion instrument. Now, obviously, you're not going to mistake that for real cricket, but it's about the rhythm of whatever you're trying to create. And doing it even, so here's another sidebar. Resonators, because I have no amplification. So there's this. If I do it behind this gong, it sounds like it is sound like it's outside. It's a little trick too. You can tell. And then also, this drum is such a cool resonator. If something would you can be that bell thing right below me. Yeah. So, it also helps if you have friends who are married to clock-makers. If Karen. So, Eric's husband Doug is a horologist, and I've been asking him about trying to create some chime sound, some legitimate chime sound. Because you can get a clock chime on the most synthesizers, and they sound actually really decent. And even these work. You know, you can buy that as a clock. You know, that's okay. But I was just sort of trying to see what else I could find. And he came up with this thing using real clock cards. But so if you get it here, it's pretty quiet, you know, right? It's not going to be really useful in a big setting. But all you do is put it on top of a larger drum. You know, so again, it's not like perfect. Awesome clock sound, but it's interesting. And I think that's kind of what you're going for. It's like the stuff that makes sense that makes sense to your ear. You know, these are just, this is my kitchen able. They make great bells. So I'm forever like going to jump stores and like banging on shit. Because you can buy it for two bucks or a buck. And then it's useful. And then if it breaks, it gets lost in pairs. If I bought a Tibetan ringing bowl, a singing bowl. Yeah, they're gorgeous. They're fantastic instruments. And then you have to be precious and be careful. And you kind of just can't. I can't get my repertoire. It's too much effort for Namna and Payda. So talking about the electric thing again, I was remembering the, so the opening to that we had struck on so that the dilemma was, like Michelle was in this, she was talking to me in the directing, what if you just sit there, you don't know anything about the show. You have zero information. And you just sit there and watch it. The first thing that happens is you hear something. They've introduced it as an ancient Greek tragedy or ancient Greek plight. So they know that. And we sort of felt like it wanted to be sort of start out wavy because it is electro. It's a serious story. But then the first character that comes out in the original version of it is this farmer. So what is, how do we know that he's a farmer? We're not seeing him come on on a tractor. We're not seeing him even dressed really overtly as a farmer. And he just looks poor. He's peasant-ish. So what are we, what's going to say to our ear that this man sort of is on the earth that does that kind of stuff. And our solution, my solution that they accepted graciously was sort of this. It's never exactly the same twice which is also why I love doing it this way. I think the actors get to understand what I do is consistent but it's never identical. And that's kind of for me. I need to stay just like the actors. I mean I'm a member of the ensemble. I consider myself part of the ensemble and having this conversation with them while they're doing it. And so just as with the acting, right, they're consistent but he's never going to do the exact same performance day to day. Just not. And it helps me stay alive and to keep it from being, you know, strictly like a gig. And there's, I mean I don't use this term, I'm not trying to be judging, you know, a gig musician. I have many friends who are a gig musician. Those gigs, they're fantastic musicians. They go from gig to gig here's my job, boom, done. And then they sort of let it go. And it's hard for that mentality to work in this. That's why I'm thinking you're looking for actors, you're looking for percussionists because they never get to play all the fun stuff. They're usually relegated to doing boring stuff. You want to do the stuff they didn't grad school or college that they don't do anymore. So anyway, back to the, the electron idea. So here's, here was my sort of solution with the little C. And sometimes I get inconsistent when we do musicals. Sometimes at the end that I have so many else. And two of us can sound like six or eight. You know, that's awesome. It's an equipment thing, you know, you need to have a foot pedal and a sustain pedal so your feet can bring up this sound when your hands do this and you can move that. And often we'll ask actors, you know, who are standing behind, you know, help me with that. Karen was my, so we had a, we had a technique, every time they would say logistics, we wanted to make sure they understood he was evil. So the first time it was mentioned, you know, in the text, we had logistics. Just this little rattlesnakey thing that just helped you, I mean it's cartoony, but you know, Peter and the Wolf kind of works and it really does. And I don't want to, I didn't want to do it with like specificity like that. Like, oh, this is, you know, that character's tune. But sometimes characters will have rhythms, you know, and sort of like rhythmic gestures rather than full on rhythm because they're only going for a few seconds or C changes are so fast, right? That's the beauty too. You know, we're not have to, I don't have to cover a 90-second C change. Nine seconds, something. So kind of all you need is just, you know, you know, just something like that. This is a fun symbol. This is an old crappy symbol that Stephen Moreng is doing the set design. He's a metal sculptor, so I haven't cut it into a spiral. So it just rings like that. This is one of my favorite things. Now that I fixed it after George broke it. But it's a nice, it's just a weird texture. It's, it's unsettling to me. I find that really useful for stuff that's you know, I'm quite sure about. And then, it's called spray drones. My dream is to one day make one using a base drone. I have to find like, a sculptor, so something is really good. Because I want it to rain. It's super rain. So I showed you that. I showed you that. I'm like trying to do my tricks and toys. So here's a fun trick. So we almost never do realistic, and I say realistic, like modern day stories. Although we did do doubt. And our guest director, Peter Rosting, shows it and I was really skeptical. He's like, oh, we're going to do doubts. And I know Peter really well. We will wait. I said, oh, no, you're not. He said, no, it's going to work. I said, okay, alright. And it's super quiet. It's been at most a beautiful edit. But the sounds are, you know, crows, foam. We added a couple of pins here and there. But things like phones are really hard. Super hard. And, you know, in a regular technical world, it's just a sound cue. It's so easy. Piece of cake. I ended up, I borrowed it from the jungle theater. They had, you know, the old school kind of plug it in. And it was a real phone. But you could, it was two receivers. You had to lift one and it would bring the other. Unless you did something wrong and you never figure out exactly what that thing was. Because then you would lift it and nothing would happen. And then you would hang it up and then it would ring. It only has to happen once to make you, like, gun shy again. So, like, you can't do this. Like, it's too stressful. And so, the simplest solution for me was the best one, which was to take the thing apart. Because there's nothing that sounds like an old phone, except an old phone. I mean, that's sort of it. But being able to control it is the problem. So, I mean, literally deconstructed it. And then just use, you know, some metal kind of a thing and just And it's all you had to do. And then you can control it and then she picks it up and there's not, you know, get the extra, you know, ring while they're still on it. Just scream down your outer and you know, and then the actor just, like, already is. The one, the one performance we had at Sally and Quigga was playing the nun. And it just didn't ring. It just didn't ring. And she circled her desk. And she started, she finally caught my eye. I was like, and so they just picked up a phone and called him. And decided to do that. But, you know, it's supposed to kind of things, like, most technology that I come across, like, screws up. Like, it just breaks. Yeah. It doesn't work. This is a really fun thing. There's none of you have because Nancy made it for me. But you can make one. So there's a thing called a waterfoam that is a real instrument. They use it a lot in scary sci-fi movies, in the 70s. And it's got these brass plates and it's got these brass rods and you put water in it and you swing it while you bow it and it makes these really cool sounds. Mine makes ugly sounds. But I love them. When you hear it, you'll find out. And so I was looking at it for a long time. So I gave Nancy a couple of stainless steel dongles and then an old kid's side of the phone that I had taken apart. And she both did it together. So it's good to have a production manager who can do well with that. It's really useful. Don't even hurt your ears too much Again, it's one of those sounds that's like it's just so interesting and weird. It's a little wicked this way. Yeah. And then you can also need for that, I don't know. Oh, this is awesome. This would be something worth investing in if you do a lot of Shakespeare. The official name is a geophone. Yeah. But it's just an ocean drum. It's been out. But how many shipwrecks? You know. Maybe. But if one actor doing this and maybe starting this storm actors doing that maybe he's in there. And it's as hypnotizing as this to Paul's end, except this is 5,000. Yeah, questions. Basically, please. I love trying to talk to the beginning about how in some ways, walking in and seeing this is sort of like a setting the stage, that comment. Yeah. But then you kind of go into your underscoring zone and have to kind of disappear. And I'm wondering if there are ever moments when you found it useful to be like are there moments where people watch you and it's intentional or when acting musicianship is useful or are there ever moments when it's good when you would like to draw attention to yourself as a performer almost? Most recently, yes. And because we finally took a cue from I think both the public and the local have been doing this with pre-show music to sort of just warm up the space. Just to sort of establish right off the bat you're entering a different thing. And we've never done that. And when we started seeing that happening it was like, God, that's a great idea and so with Electro we did so we had some pre-show songs that Tom Cena, one of the actors, sang she's going to sing them tomorrow for you. And it was just there, you know, as people settled in it wasn't meant to be listen to me pay attention but that always ended up happening which was great because it's sort of people would talk and talk and talk and then someone would hear her and then eventually and the last song we sang which was The Circle The Circle was just sort of like the show and so we were singing that we were doing because of the farmer and the rustic outdoor qualities we just sort of ended up with a sort of posy mountain country gospel to sort of sound That's when then we're definitely doing something and when it's a musical that is a little different too because they're definitely aware that I'm doing more than I ever do because I'm singing and we'll get more to discuss that tomorrow so if we all had a Peter in our singing you do, you sound better so the question that I have is how do you go about looking for someone that does what you do if it's a collaborative experience and I'm directing something I know I'm going to have a musician and I know maybe a couple of sounds in my search what are some things to ask for you know what I'm saying and I think you start maybe I mean percussion I get I'll just start with your actors then I'll just spread the word amongst all your actors and community who amongst you plays and you're not looking and most musicians that I know or actor musicians they view themselves as actors they're actually really good at what they do when they play things because they're actors so they're kind of they want to do things well they just don't build themselves as a musician so you kind of have to coax them into it and like I said the first Emperor of the Moon I think I had like five or six things that I used to make noises on you know it was pretty simple and this has grown in complexity as I've gotten more comfortable with that and it's just I think it's sometimes it's a matter of forcing them into doing more you know and saying we can have more and it doesn't mean louder it just means like I said playing or really that's for some reason that word just makes you know it explains it for me like when I'm doing something like I try to figure out alright I can do this and this what else can I add to it and it just makes it exponentially more interesting to my ear yeah okay that was one of our first challenges when Cal State's first started doing the tour but how did we find Peter? we actually I think because we had a grant you came out and worked for the first week with the musician we hired and then he then did the tour and he did the next two as well because I think there is like all the other things there's a learning curve but the person we found who was actually the guy who collaborated with on other projects but he's like the kind of person who's done a lot of unusual musicals or like new musicals or like he's done devising processes where there's like an actor in the room and a musician Peter I think don't like I wouldn't undersell your role as composer like because the actor who can kind of play stuff doesn't get you the new composition so like actually that's a really important element but what was important to me about the guy we found was that he wasn't a composer slash sound designer he was a composer slash performing musician so we had the timing and the musicality of the form with the composer but it was kind of like he's kind of like a person I need from a new play world and that was for me a like made sense because he was going to be in the room for all the rehearsals kind of coming up with it with us that was my question here Peter you're with the ensemble in the beginning and what are the rehearsals? I was just going to talk about that so that's another huge difference when how many rehearsals do I attend what time do I need to be there what are the shows that's how they work and when I employ them to work with me that's something I struggle with because it just means okay I have to catch you up at some point so for me I'm in the room from read through until we close I'm not always there in those first days of like working out their bones of their blocking that's not that useful for me to be there when they're talking about the characters when they're talking about the story when they're doing their back and forth about no I think it's this it's really good for me to hear how they're wrestling with the story because it's going to inspire me to do something and I just don't know what it's going to be but I have to be there while they're working it out so that I can take that information and do something with it and also so there's a thing I don't know if we can work with it anymore I just respond to the sound they see colors and they see they just see colors I'm starting to believe that maybe I have a movement version of it because I watch and I noticed when I was driving south one time in the fall there were all those fields of weed that they curl up in all the wheels and they were scattered and most of the things and I could hear that actually I could hear that rhythm of what it was seeing and so then I started thinking oh and that's so like when I watched the actors move and I watched the gesture and I watched them that actually I hear that or I hear something or it makes me respond that way and I can't do that if I'm not in the room so you have to pay somebody to be in the room the whole time and that's unusual for a designer but it's a different animal it's a whole different ball game can you talk a little bit here about the logistics of all of these pieces are so awesome and I'm just thinking about the CEOs on front gate do you ever have to say oh I guess I'm going to do plan B of that sound because we can't get this cleared in room and that's part of the lovely thing of players and that was a bonus that I did plan which is if I can't take something in but it's layered into something else I've got two other layers left there's very some pretty good with I mean it's always astonishing to me with the prison systems a lot of times I feel like I mean they're all trying to do their jobs and they have their checklists and they know what they're looking for but I bring they'll say no to the weapons for the fight scenes and I'm going to bring in a brass tip now that which I don't know if you've ever seen one like oh my god it can be dead it can be dead in a second it doesn't strike them as straight usually I have to say most of my stuff doesn't sometimes the slates raise an eyebrow because they have sharp corners and I have a box of them with a chain in it and I think it was and a lot like I said so this is all accumulated over time I don't use this in every shot I can use this once, measure or measure because it's being dragged away the chains sound that the chains along weren't didn't sound like chains oddly, they sounded like chains in a plastic box and I shoved them in but I probably shouldn't have that but they don't describe it as slates and they look at it and they expect everything they don't say much until somebody gets it and then when they do then you're like okay keep it you just sort of have to be prepared for that for sure yeah I would say the biggest the biggest perspective is for things that record so the keeper we got in once and then they're like oh I understand this is how you can never bring this again then for our we play from a really old orange blue box we can't order this anymore we can't order it on eBay so we play our CDs from that blue box for our pre-show music regardless whether we're not doing all the musicians but yeah I would say you can get way farther with metal instruments and you can have any sort of metal copies I would never be able to bring in that chain yeah we have a long relationship now so the one thing you ran into a while back which just sucked was Shaffi P women's facility down here it's a state facility inexplicably told us we still want you to come but you have to use all of our instruments and they were like what do you mean your instruments what are you talking about so we have a guitar we have some drums we just got to do your show with our stuff and we were like yeah actually just like it doesn't work at all so we didn't go for a cycle of shows and we kept sort of pushing them on and my hunch I'm still just a hunch because once we got in and we saw what they had and it was all very new I think somebody advocated for the women so they could use them for their work services and for immigration they advocated hard for them once they got in they had to make the case for using them of course so I think it's all coming from a really good place like after that it made sense to me it was like oh they want these to be used and they're trying to you know look I did it you need these we didn't have to use their guitars once we had an electric guitar and she had to use theirs and it's not easy to pick up somebody else's guitar to play it they're not the same you know you're different so that was the worst thing we ever had I was just going to throw in with the global music for the last three shows very differently every time so the first time we did much we traveled with two straight players who played for years and were also interwoven into the piece didn't have any issues of course with that and then the next year we actually traveled with the DJ so we actually got into the pieces wow the DJ and speakers and the computer and everything and did the free show and playing you know and then with her playing throughout the show at different times and also sort of doing the same thing but digitally finished a few weeks ago this is speaking to using your actors we have our actors we have three of the actors all playing guitar they each brought their own guitars with them and then we actually ended up hiring some of the quite original music to go with it and so we all the actors singing at one point Akapala and Harvey we also had three different guitarists playing and you know a class of the guitar and two acoustic guitars they were able to travel with that so sometimes I think it just depends on you know especially with the person who's there at that time because I'm pretty sure if you want to go back now with the DJ they were ready for it because there's some trust that's built there but I mean it could be that I've made it onto a different guitar at that prison and Akapala's backyard so there's a lot of you know variables I don't think it's just me to have that try, have that got planned and Nancy and I are really good at learning how to describe things in a non-threatening manner so anything that we feel might raise a red flag but I'm like how else can we describe this that's still accurate but doesn't raise any alarms yeah so before I forget too we were talking about fights in the other section of fights so many fights these and there's swords and knives and you know and fighting up close how do you pull that off how do you make that look like a thing not that we always do it this way but often it will work if you feel compelled to put it in slow motion but the musician isn't real time and I have it with me this it's basically a bunch of pieces of sheet metal that's all bent and worked it makes this great piece of metal crashes and again I never try to be like on the nose like timing it with their sword things it's like a cartoon but if they're in slow motion and you've got you know something going on underneath you know they're fighting their sword doing their slow they're healthy and stupid and they're playing in reverse with an expectation of it and the image I kept getting and perfecting for very kind of a new sport and it seemed like we were talking when we talked about it in rehearsals and this is one of those examples like I needed to be in rehearsal from the beginning from the design meetings like how the hell are we going to do this what's it sound like and the more they kept describing me about how violent it was and how electro head built in her head how triumphant this was going to be this was a good thing this was her goal this was what she was living for the more maybe sort of just think hyper romanticism and something very lush and rich and emotional that fought against actually what they were doing and we ended up playing with it it was this sort of like slow build that happened when they started to go together so this is my composer part of me so these intervals here play in little ways just to introduce the earwits but then at the time they started to gather her to get her going they had quite a bit of development and then by the time they were like sort of getting her ground up ended the way the stage worked out and it was underscoring text at this point where we just went and it didn't go on forever it didn't last forever and then what was great too was we built up which climaxed and it went and then you got to watch them deal with what they had just done and then of course immediately like oh this wasn't going to go at all this is not at all what we thought it was going to feel you know so yeah let me say that's that is the prime reason to get the musician there to feel like they can be part of that long long long long long process another thing about instruments the other thing that was so beautiful about that we had a very elaborate set piece that was supposed to conceal the death because in Greek drama just taking us off stage and then our new field and it didn't work it didn't work and it didn't work even when we got it to work it looked horrible and we got so friends one day I was like oh my god let's just try it without the cover let's just do it and because of the music we were able to just the music just carried the illusion of what was happening which is another thing about the Greek way I'm just learning I'm sort of in George's camp about stuff like I don't know anything I learned so much doing these great stuff the action takes place off stage then people come on and talk about it isn't that say right? yeah I just wanted you to talk a little bit about I did even just as a performer when I'm in the room and I walk in I get distracted by everything but really I am fascinated by what you do and yeah I took you a long time to get to where you are but you started out by saying I'm super lucky because I like a bunch of things and I know all these instruments and I don't want anybody to think though that I think a lot of people could do this or start off doing this if they're rhythmic and they it seems to me because Annie started to do it and I can who just really is a guitarist you know that's where she lives she's an actress who's an actress also and a singer she comes from like a musical but she doesn't know how to play a ton of instruments either so what does it look like for you to say you put up the script and all you've got all these things you want to play for that like how does someone else could start off doing this it's really intimidating because you are so entirely talented you've got so much awesome stuff but I really think that somebody who just wants to be passionate about it could get there I really do and to find different things to too and that's one of the reasons so we per period so we do three shows a year a number of years in a row where I did all the shows and A I was sort of exhausted because this is hard hard work you know this is hard because it's like so draining so and also I was getting really nervous that it was just my voice that's just not a good thing and so we're trying to identify different people and we put out the word actors and I knew Annie and a poster and she knew what I did she's been into a show I was like how about you and I'll help but it still had to be her the thing I'm never interested in doing is like here hit this then do this now do this then it can't be from there it has to be an acting generated response to what they're seeing to what you're watching on stage that's why the listening thing is so important and I tend to end up being a real addiction pound because I'm not watching and I'm not even looking much Christmas times and I'm sorry I have no idea what you just said seriously I don't know what you just said you know and people are like what are you talking about you're so accustomed to it so it actually helps you get an extra pair of super ears in the room for someone who's really listening to stuff that just doesn't make sense they get confused my ears don't understand what you're doing I was going to say something about instruments too so this is my thing which is this percussion and then I play woodwinds not often in play but to me because it's air it's life, it's a live sound and simple things like ocarinas are so evocative and they're better than recorders, recorders sound even a good recorder sounds cheesy like a six-year-old but these, they're not that expensive and again you don't have to I don't have to play this dancing I can't play a song, you can't tell me to play something and I can do I can do that which is fine and gets the job done and gets it in there and people for years would call me and be like I need the accordion to play it I was like I don't play accordion in that show, I played that song in that show on the recorder that's why I don't have to play I don't know how to do what I need to do on the instrument I need to do it on and a lot of musicians can do that it's a different, it's a way of setting up what is successful it's not virtuosic, it's not about the technique, it's about can you communicate musically on that whatever that might happen to be I don't do strings I'm no good at I'm bang on shit that's what Annie calls me you just sit in the corner and bang on shit and I make stuff, I like making things I like that with the MacGyver I think this comes in I'm eating something out of it just going back to your comment about serving out I wonder if you could speak to maybe what are the five things that you would put in the band that's an awesome question I would put a gong again, like Amazon you don't need to buy a $700 gong, you should not own one you can buy $60 $75 they're out there and they sound fine for what you need it's going to work I would do a gong and again it's just a kick drum for my kids it's not a nice bass drum because you can type it type one side of it once, for Witcher's Tale I used to write more instruments I realized, because now I own but there's a percussion supply guy in town who's really been great to me I used to write to a giant bass drum that I put on that side on the stand and you can if you have that access to stuff because you're acoustic the size of that resonator is going to do something to the room and do something here that you can't be creating on a smaller drum so gong, bass drum um chimes wonder chimes and then you just like a set and that's what we did too we never had to go outside and we could figure out how we get there outside, you know, walking in the garden and crows are doing their thing and how do we know they're outside but just some quiet inch chimes sort of like, we're like, oh I think that's what you would hear outside you know, from far away or something and then you throw in the ah you know, just the crow thing which of course, now let me remember again I remember I was always like um and that's about the volume thing so some shows because I'm like, so normally the seats are here, the seats are here I have to be loud enough to be heard on the center of the stage so these folks kind of get a pretty substantial show but if I pull it back too much then they don't hear anything on the other side and so I've also learned to just you know, depending on the show if there's any sort of crash, I just warn everybody it's like about 25 minutes and I'm going to bang and they're like, oh thank you because I've forgotten to do that at times and you can swear to hell because it's hard to dance you know, if I if it's a giant everybody on deck you know, kind of a bang it's like, whoa so um, chimes gong, bass drum it's not a snare drum, it's not a bad idea because you can take a snare off and it's a tom-tom if you're trying to be, you know, military you know, nothing's military then even if it's an acronym you know, it doesn't matter in a sense, like we've had so many part-shakes and warriors like marching to soldiers coming to a snare drum but it's okay you sort of can still understand what their goal is if we're going to cause war or marching to soldiers those would be great ones to start with and you know, I mean, so this let me talk a little bit about this keyboard it's a old Roland D-50 keyboard that I bought from a former sound guy I got through when they were ditching all their instruments years ago like 50 bucks it's super retro it's got great sounds on it if you can actually say it like that because again, so like all these great sounds are good for nature soldiers or fighters then you always have, like, you know, the god some spooky afferents you know, I heard that but if you have something that has some really weird sounds it's clearly not man-made right? because for somebody who's not a man that's kind of what I deserve that for those kinds of sounds are really useful it's nice to have a look at the keyboard you can find a tiny little keyboard that has some really pleasing bizarre sounds that can cover your basses there how is it programmed already into the keyboard? it is, yeah, there's cards that slide in and I have to, when I bring it into prison I have to say we learned how to put it on one line which is Roland D-50 with stand, cards cords and pedals and amp so you have a swing once and they freaked out so, you know, it's just one thing just one thing with a lot of different cards let me bring it all in I have a quick what comes to mind when we look at it how long? ten minutes a little discussion if you want about like, because tomorrow we'll talk about musicals but music within plays you know, there's so many sort of plays right, there's songs there's a lot of me 12 nights that has song songs and how do you approach those and they need to be grateful, right or you use something else that exists and how is it going to fit to the world of your play and are you updating it or are you doing anything to it there's great opportunities but it takes a lot of effort it takes a lot of attention so for me I'm, Michelle was with me with this, which is when you're trying to get to a song this experience I'm like, does it have to be there I'm not trying to be lazy I'm just like, what happens if it's not there I always start with that what happens if it just doesn't exist and then we talk about it, it's like something has to be there doesn't have to be all of it just has to be as much of it all the questions that you would want to do in a traditional production of it which is, why is it there, what are you trying to accomplish what are you singing it to did they just learn it, did they make it up is it a song everybody knows are they good at it, do they like singing in front of people I mean, you just have to get to work all those questions that we should be doing all the time we often get described and you probably do too this style of performing you rethink how to do theater I'm like, no, just think it just think it you don't have to redo anything just think it it doesn't have to be and then you know and then you have to match it to your actor does this actor even sing or are they freaked out by singing if someone can't sing but are freaked out by it if someone actually can't sing but are in love with it and that's awesome that's actually really fun to play you know it does take time it takes up like every day of rehearsal like what was the song, you sang some song in Henry Ford there was some song I made it up because you shouldn't have you should have made it up it should have been years to make up we realized I need to write something that sounds improvised and then teach it to you in a matter that sounds as though you're just coming up with it really, no, how about if you just make something and I had make up or a gainer or a PC or something sometimes I can trick you but sometimes you're so capable to let yourself off that hook because I think just like we're not doing it in English with English accents if you go back and do research and you want to pull in some talent you really want to alienate your audience do that one of those songs that way and everybody's just like that's really not anything I recognize so now I'm totally you know that's a thing the choral working as we like it was sort of done I still remember that but it was easy simple a lot of stuff was so up a come but that's my thing too like the burnout play that's the one thing because Maggie played for you Galeo and that was great that was a really cool thing otherwise there has to be a reason why there's music coming from that corner it's not a musical, we're just doing plays so unless those actors can play an instrument then you have to do it on the path to make sense of the world unless you're in a scene with musicians and that's fine, then you've got musicians on stage occasionally because I still hang on to make every car because I try to once in a while but like so we've creeped this ourselves it's legal for me to just come to the corner and stand and play something so that I'm visible I'm a little more visible than over here in this game but I'm not on stage in the scene I'm just over here standing and then I'm not that's cool you're not going to say it well the challenge we ran to when we did in Iliad is the script actually calls it calls it the music and at one point the music appears and it's there for the rest of the show and the music to be there and so the question is we put it in the corner and we're like no it can't be in the corner that should be in the circle play this part of the circle and he played the entire the music so it's a similar but different way that you have to figure out how that song sort of works he's got one instrument that he has to play for an hour yes yeah so there's lots of different approaches to it that work he built was on Liar and then he had to figure out how to play is on Liar and then he had to figure out how to sing five goddamn notes that's the entire show I always solve that problem but that's kind of great to look for you know that like I said there's a lot of us out there if he hadn't been as much an improviser as a composer it probably would never work either thank you can I throw that in there? she just made a perfect point find an improviser of a musician who plays for improvisers there's a lot of them yeah we did a adaptation of Crime and Punishment called Rascal and she wanted songs and I was like cool let's do it what do they sound like and then we started that whole conversation honestly it was kind of quick he was like well here's this character who's improviser he's making shit up because he did this horrible thing and then he covered his trail and he doesn't know what he's doing and he's got scattered, very caticky things so jazz, free jazz kind of wonky stuff that you can't listen to for very long will be the base of it and we had a bigger grant for that so I hired a bass player and a friend of mine was a brilliant sax player and I did percussion and I was able to give them outlines of you know things and you know the songs were written sort of quasi like there was freedom in the songs for the actor to stay in control because that's the problem of the song and in musicals some problem is the tiktok, once that's in place your monologue just got ripped right out of your hands because you're not in charge of your timing you're not in charge of so much and so we tried to give it back to the actor when we came but that really worked and we totally got it and they were totally comfortable with you know, I was a staff like I could give the bass player I gave him a bunch of sort of three measure riffs of bass lines that I thought were really interesting and fun, you could play in however you want in whatever order you want during this little piece and the sax player would just go on top of that that works it's that improvisatory thing if you have somebody who really needs to use it you're gonna be hard because they're gonna want to know they're gonna want to get it right all this is actors, right? you're sunk, you're trying to get it right you just want to try to stay there and stay awake and I did so when I went to work with Olive and I went to public with Jackie, I remember Jackie's last name worked on a measure but even then those theaters did was I sort of searched found some folks I sort of coached them a little like I collected instruments for them more than anything and said here's some stuff that's what was really helpful was like here and then letting them do their thing it just takes time to understand how much you can take where's too much like I said it's too much for any director it's too much for Michelle she'll never go for that she'll want total size somebody else will want a little something to hold them up but you can do a lot really more questions otherwise I think you're coming here on film what would be a good toolkit for an outdoor show? oh my god I'm trying to ask because I can't imagine performing outdoors at Scotty like I don't know how you guys do outdoor outdoors it blows my mind you're gonna need loud big drums, you know big gongs I would love to be able to buy some really huge chimes sometimes like just a giant bang on a chime and I did get to do a production and helped Carlton College out of Nature 12 tonight and they gave me three percussionists of theirs and it was a stationary like you know so on one whole side of the stage we had just these big instruments and three of them got to pull so the size, like large things it's just large stuff if it's outdoors you'll have to be able to hang a gong from a tree to hang big gongs from trees my head is thinking like that's what you want to do I can incorporate the and like what's going on in New Orleans talk to the Cripple Creek folks space, sculpture space with a used house village yeah there are installations that are used in westerns built out of just scavenged stuff we're just about out of time thank you guys for thank you you guys are so sure that you want to go out and we're doing two at this bar