 Thomas Jefferson said, a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy. The following program is part of the series, Influencers and Media Makers. A number of years ago, CCTV sat down with some of Vermont's most influential voices in media, news, and information access to understand their perspectives about the role of media in democracy and how their decisions shape the way we as Vermonters receive information. Much has changed since our first interviews. The people, the technology and social media, the political landscape, and so much more. Fast forward 20 or so years, and in collaboration with Leadership Champlain, we are revisiting the topic with a focus on what has changed, gaps and challenges across geographic, language, and socioeconomic boundaries. The conversations you will hear with today's gatekeepers provide important, varied, and insightful context to the media in Vermont today. Welcome to our segment on the involving role of media and the necessity of an unfettered press for a healthy democracy. How do you respond to that generally in your role as reporting for VPR and in Vermont? Yeah, obviously I'm a big fan of freedom of the press, press access to things, but in terms of the role media plays in democracy, I think disseminating information is one of the kind of higher points of things that we do, you know, emergency situations, right? Like the COVID-19 pandemic is a great example. In the early days, I was doing a lot of, you know, what is the health advisories? What does the health department say? What does the governor say? What are the things that people need to know in order to make decisions so they can stay safe? That's like one certain area, particularly I think in broadcast media that is very common because it's so immediate. But one of the other sides, which is when I'm probably more passionate about, which is the idea of holding government and public officials and large institutions to account institutions that have a lot of power and sway in people's lives and being able to scrutinize actions that they do to make sure that they're behaving and performing in a way that's responsible and helpful to the public. So the sort of, you know, education information side of things but also the accountability side are very important. I like the accountability side in my work, but, you know, the information is important too. Absolutely. And getting into the role of democracy, how does VPR play a hand in helping people make voting decisions? Yeah, I'll use the 2020 election as just kind of a case study because, as you remember with the pandemic, there was all the vote by mail and sort of early election or early voting. And so we wanted to make sure that people had all the information they needed to know how to vote by mail, how to do that so that, you know, correctly and also sort of explain how it works, why it's safe, why they should trust that their vote is counted and try to sort of push back on a lot of the misinformation that was coming out around that time. And that was, and as a statewide news organization, we have a great responsibility in doing that as well because we can reach, you know, every part of the state, every corner of the state and that's a big responsibility and so trying to make sure people not just know who the candidates are, I mean, there's that side of it as well but I think making sure people understand how they can actually participate in helping foster that participation is an important civic role that media organizations have. And knowing that there is a tumultuous national political environment, how does VPR balance covering that versus state and local issues in your role? Yeah, the, you know, thankfully we're a statewide news organization so the way we think about national news kind of is how does national filter to the state level. You know, sometimes shows that we have like Vermont tradition, maybe we'll take something that's happening nationally and invite people to have a conversation about it and that can be a really powerful way for people to sort of talk about things that are happening on a larger scale but really like our reporting is focused on things that are happening here in Vermont. And that isn't to say that there aren't divisive things that happen in the state but I think for me being able to focus more on what's happening here helps kind of stay a little bit out of that prey and really trying to stick to rigorous like back based reporting and not getting too drawn into just having stories that are just kind of, I don't know, fights for the sake of fights I guess but things that I think are useful for people to know about like I said before about how their government works or how people make decisions and that have power. Great. Yeah, so building on that how does local media address those issues of partisanship, bias, ideology and propaganda when they do permeate into the local issues? Yeah, I think the biggest thing is to be back based, to be led by facts and to not get to and to not kind of fall into the both sidesism sort of thing like where if you have one perspective you have to have the opposite perspective and sort of dividing everything into black and white issues. There's also, I mean there's a lot of gray and nuance and complexity but I think in terms of some of the things that we're really challenged by right now as a country and a world there's not really like a both sides to those issues. Climate change I think is an example where you saw in the last decade or so it went from news organizations always having a person who believes in climate change and someone who thinks climate change isn't real and sort of putting those two sides up to each other like it was a debate. Whereas now news organizations say climate change is real and they don't give weight to the people who are denying climate change in the same way because all the facts and the science says that human cause climate change is leading is going to lead to some pretty catastrophic changes here and instead of, and it's you know to our detriment to say that people that say that's not happening is true and that's a hard thing for news organizations especially in the US to do since there's this idea that we have to be objective and down the middle and that's just not necessarily the case in a lot of these bigger stories like climate change I think is really one of the big examples from the past where you saw news organizations shift the way they talk about climate change because of following the facts. Yeah. Was this an institutional change at VPR that was communicated in any way or implemented in any way or was this just kind of the wider media following some kind of trend? You know I'm trying to think of what conversations we had at VPR I mean we have a dedicated climate reporter right now you know I think generally in my time in the seven years I've been reporting like a lot of news organizations were starting to kind of shift towards more of that approach not just locally but nationally that you know that climate change you know is real it's happening and we need to not so much cover a debate over the science but you know say the science is here and here's what is going to happen if we don't do anything about it so I think there's a kind of a confluence of both conversations locally and then the broader national and international media as well. Interesting to see that interplay there. Yeah there was something else that we kind of picked up on a side conversation that we wanted to include as we before we move on. I don't know that I recall I think Pete you had some points but you can certainly, okay. Okay great. And the audio is good just before we move on. Okay great. So in making some of these decisions what do you choose to highlight in a political report and how are those choices influenced? Do you follow competition or popular trends? Not only in how you report or exactly what you're reporting in Vermont. Probably not the best reporter to ask about that because I'm not I don't know that I'm the most competitive reporter I don't I think a lot of the competition in journalism is a little bit like internally created like we are creating competition to compete with other news outlets and often the only people that really care about that who gets a story first are other journalists and I don't know that that's the most healthy thing for democracy to be driven by trying to out scoop some other people. So I would rather work with other reporters especially in Vermont which is a smaller state we have a very I think robust media ecosystem for such a small state but that also you know it's not huge and you know instead of having a bunch of this you know reporters devoting time to covering the same press conferences where we're all going to write the same story wouldn't it be better to share some of those resources and have one or two people covering that sharing that story which is the same story we're all going to write and then people can focus on many other things that are going uncovered. You know there's a criticism right that journalism that the media doesn't that we miss stories and that's certainly true and part of that is because there's a tendency to all cover the same things because you're trying to compete with everybody and so you you miss things because you we don't have infinite resources so I'm very interested in trying to use the resources we have to cover more and to cover better and cover more in depth and to do longer more investigative stories or even just more nuanced and detailed stories about where we're living to help people not just make informed decisions about voting but to feel more confident I mean not necessarily confident but to just know the place they're in better and know when things are good and also know when things are not good. Interesting, yeah. Would you say that BPR has a certain subscriber base that you're looking for stories that would better suit your audience or are you trying to remain in those other ways as objective when it comes to selecting those stories? Like what do you mean in terms of trying to find new audiences I guess? Yeah, I wonder, you know, BPR often has a bit of a bias against BPR as a news organization for being kind of particular in the way that stories are shared and who they're shared for sometimes a more academic kind of experience and so yeah, I wonder if those are the types of stories that BPR seeks out or if that's just a nature of Vermont and the whole or if there are other ways that BPR is looking at branching out to other ways of reporting and other audiences? Yeah, I mean, that's something that we're talking about a lot. Something I've thought about, you know, a lot of things are focused on more of an academic, white, educated audience and to truly reflect the state as a lot more, it is more diverse, you know, racially, economically, socially, politically than what the traditional public radio listener might be. And so I think we're trying to figure out how best to do that. When I think about it, it's probably, you know, slowing down a little bit and spending a little bit more time building trust within some of the communities that maybe don't trust a place like BPR as much. You know, younger audiences, you know, more racially diverse audiences, different levels of economic status as well. How do you sort of get to know what are the issues they care about and what actually want to know about is that you have to spend time with them and yet they have to trust you and they have to feel some sense of being reflected in the work and not just sort of being... It's almost like this idea of telling a story as opposed to telling a story like at them or about them. And that's a, I think, often journalism rewards sort of people just sort of parachuting in and dropping in, even though I think, you know, as a local organization we don't do that as much. You know, the New York Times does that a lot and we're like, oh, we don't do that as a BPR or state organization, but like we do end up doing that sometimes. And so how can we change our ways to do that less? I'm still trying to figure that out. I think slowing down a little bit and spending some time and trying to get to know people and have them building trust with them. But those are all kind of like squishy things. It's hard to know if we're doing them yet. Yeah, I agree. I think on a local scale it is a little easier to follow those changes, but they do happen rapidly. And that really segues into our section on the news, desert and access. And we define that as a community, either rural or urban, with limited access to the sort of credible and comprehensive news and information that feeds democracy at the grassroots level. But a lot of the media makers we've interviewed through this series really define it very differently. Sometimes it's that geographic news desert landscape or sometimes it's a matter of the socioeconomic status of whoever might be engaging in media or seeking media. Sometimes it's generational. So I just wonder how you define a news desert in Vermont and what kind of desert areas you see all across the strata. I like that idea that news deserts it's not just a place where maybe there's not a newspaper, but is there not media that is serving a particular community's needs? I think you could say there are geographic areas of the state that don't have as much coverage as they used to. I mean, I think there are newspapers in southern Vermont, there are newspapers in the northeast kingdom, but there are areas there that aren't covered as rigorously. Those newspapers are smaller. We don't cover them as well as others do. There's not necessarily a good media organization that speaks to younger Vermonters maybe in the news. There's not really one that looks at maybe racial or gender issues in the same way or in those are all could be, you could say news deserts. Are we really speaking to the issues that all of these different folks might have or the kind of different ways that you could sort of cut up the demographics of Vermont? Do you need a news organization for all of those things or do the news organizations that we have have to think better and do better about speaking to those folks as in Vermont? Maybe it's a little bit of both of those things I think but I think you have to be deliberate and try to be better about that as a news organization. I think for VPR and Vermont PBS as we're merged now, we have a large platform across radio, across television and online and I think we have a big responsibility and how do we how do we help fill in some of those news deserts and become a place for more people in Vermont to get information and have access to media. I mean it's the technology issue too. We don't have broadband across most of the state so you can't be a totally digital platform necessarily. There's still a need for maybe print or radio at the very least because a lot of people still have radios so the technology is like a whole other side too. Absolutely. Yeah, it's always changing too. And let's see Yeah, what is Vermont PBS and VPR's responsibility in expanding access to diverse audiences? Was that a lot of the reason behind that merger and how are you attempting to do that? I think that is one of the things that folks at the organization really want to prioritize and are prioritizing in the kind of mission of the organization. How we do that is a good question. Like I said earlier I'm still figuring that out. I think we're all figuring that out. I think trying to be more present in the community in different places not going to the same kinds of events maybe that we always went to for trying to talk with different community leaders in different places that maybe we haven't spent as much time it's I think a slow process but I think you sort of have to start with inviting people in maybe there are opportunities I think to work with and partner with other organizations that have greater experience and trust in communities where maybe we don't to help create things or host discussions or events or concerts. I think events are one way that we're looking at it that's not necessarily but that could lead to more stories and I think it's sort of I'm maybe like switching gears here but it's not just about for me as a journalist like I don't want to just be covering like bad things that happen in a like if about this one I like written about you know like the Northeast Kingdom I write about the EB-5 scandal a lot and that's not the only thing that happens in Orleans County and I sometimes feel like I need to write about more than just the hole in the middle of downtown Newport or the embezzlement of millions of dollars like that's the only association a lot of people might have with with Newport because of these stories and you know that's like of interest to a statewide audience but it doesn't necessarily get to the hole the breadth and depth of a place and so you know maybe working and being more present in the state will open us up to maybe being a little bit more holistic in the way we're telling stories in Vermont. Yeah see now we have another definition of a news desert only reporting the negativity for sure that's great and in that work of partnering and reaching out to other organizations to try to fill some of those gaps are you aware of those demographics you're not reaching you mentioned younger audiences and how does social media play a role in filling those gaps I think social media could could play a role don't really know what that is exactly I think with social media you have to really be intentional and like make things for that medium like what works on the radio is not going to work on tiktok what works on tiktok isn't necessarily going to work on the radio and to I think attract an audience in social media you have to understand what media works for that platform and you actually have to be making things that are designed to work on that place and I think I think that's an area we could go into to maybe get to younger audiences but I think we need to be intentional and actually make things for that platform instead of just trying to repackage what we're already doing for that place it won't work otherwise and it will come across as inauthentic and that's like not a great look at all I don't think yeah is it difficult to be authentic on social media given how that can also be a pretty divisive place and how does VPR navigate that I think we think about it a lot as well I think we're changing the way we think about it or trying to or rethinking it but I think I've often thought of social media as a way to promote work and direct people back to my work so if I write a story I might tweet it to try to get people to read that story but like is using it to direct traffic to the website really the best use of it or if people are already on a platform like Instagram or TikTok maybe instead of trying to kick them to our website like create something that exists there that can tell them that story since they're already on that platform if that makes sense right instead of trying to redirect traffic you already have their attention here what is something they can consume to frankly to get the story that we're trying to tell right like if I have a story that can translate and kind of be repackaged for Instagram in a way that people get information that they need that's really good and they don't need to read that on the website if they can still get something out of like an Instagram post I think you need to have like dedicated people that are doing that and the way you're authentic is by like creating stuff for that place not as a way to try to get people somewhere else yeah it's interesting because we've spoken to some media makers who talked about how challenging that profit model is of using social media when it's really that platform that's generating a lot of their own revenue from your content and so that seems to have really affected the social media that we do consume and folks who use it for a news outlet yeah anything else you want to highlight as a challenge in that or or positives from social media um you know I think social media is you know it's one well there are many different social media right so they're all they're all one they're all their own thing and twitter is not my favorite place in the world I don't like to spend a ton of time on that I think it kind of amplifies issues that and divisiveness but there could be some good things there as well and you know but I think the intentionality of using it yeah in your role as someone who's participating in the freedom of press and for this organization how do you respond to wider media attacks on democracy or on the process of the elections and some wider global issues that seem to be undermining freedom of press yeah it's I mean if I had an answer to that right I probably would uh I don't know maybe I would write a book or something or do speeches but I think that um I think one of the things we can do maybe it's in a small way it's like we just don't have a lot of media literacy here like being able in this country and you know it should be something taught in like high school civics is like how to sort of dissect where the information is coming from because you know what you're getting from one cable news channel might not actually be all that like fact based out in any way shape or form and might be undermining democracy in some ways and being able to sort of try to recognize the biases that are present in media in all forms of media not just you know cable news but in newspapers you know in the New York Times and The Walking Tomb Post and all these are being able to sort of read critically and see critically um I think that might help a little bit it's not the only thing that's going to solve this problem because like you do have sort of uh you know outlets that are saying things that are eroding democracy and democratic norms and spreading misinformation but you know I think people need to it's not just enough for news organizations to be fact checking those news organizations which is one thing we can do like you know during the 2020 elections saying like the vote in Vermont was safe and secure like here are all the things that we know we've we've like looked at through the information we've been able to get from the Secretary of State's website and like here's why we know that that your vote counted and why these things are are true it's like that fact checking is important but like the other side is like you need to people need to be able to think critically about what they're actually consuming and not just like take it all at face value and but I don't know then sometimes people like well what if you what you're telling me right now is the lie and like being critical of that which that's sort of I think a little trying to find the right word for that that's like sort of a what about ism what about ism right like so I think I also think like you know news is entertainment or like kind of cable news this is I think one of the places where a lot of this gets information is permeated through like 24-hour news cycles sort of it's all about trying to attract people and hold them to get advertisers and make money and if that's your motive then you're going to that's going to be the bias is going to be towards sensationalized things even if they're not true and that's just not healthy and that's not good so I don't know maybe remove the profit motive from that sort of stuff but that's that's a whole yeah it's a whole different model of economics that maybe is not the most reasonable way to fix things yeah and vpr does and Vermont Public Television fills that role of that non-profit type of model and the transparency that you provide in your organization that isn't as clear but should be when there's an advertisement running between segments yes so again and let's see yeah do you see any bright spots or opportunities in facing these challenges ahead as we try to come together as a nation even after some of these tragedies I think kind of for the media world that I exist here in Vermont and I think I'd like to see less competition between the outlets we have and more collaboration trying to find ways to work together to tell more stories about more places and people and things in Vermont as opposed to just trying to compete over the same sort of rote stories I think that's how we can really make a difference and help shore up against some of these attacks of democracy that are coming so we shouldn't be fighting among ourselves we should try to work together a little bit more great yeah certainly a message we've been able to carry through this conversation so thank you for contributing your thoughts on these really important topics I think that's it if you like this and want to see more watch the rest of the series thank you for watching and please vote