 The Electronic Frontier Alliance is a grassroots network founded by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They join us for our next presentation, Meet the EFA, a discussion on grassroots organizing for digital privacy, security, free expression, and creativity. Please welcome Elliot, Abhi Hassan, Freddie Martinez, Nash, and Emily St. Pierre. Thank you, Rob. And yes, my name is Nash and I am the Associate Director of Community Organizing at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, where I lead the organizing team, which is responsible for coordinating the Electronic Frontier Alliance, which is a network of over 70 grassroots organizations across the US. And so again, thank you for joining us. For years, EFF has hosted a panel called Ask the EFF, and it's been a great opportunity for folks to find out about the work that EFF is doing across the country and internationally as well, and to ask questions about the things that are really important to you. And in that way, this year's hope is no different. And in fact, my colleagues, Kurt Oppsal, Alexis Hancock, India McKinney, Rory Meir, and Naomi Gillins will be hosting an Ask the EFF panel on Saturday at 1300 EDT as part of this year's hope conference. And I really wanna recognize that we wouldn't be able to do any of that work without the support of so many members of the hacker community. So thank you so much. But there is so much important work that's happening that's not led by national organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, work that's happening in communities across the United States, and led by community and student organizations working to preserve digital rights in their communities and to share skills and knowledge so that their neighbors are empowered with the information that they need to make informed choices about the ways that they interact with their technology and the internet. And to support that work, EFF launched the Electronic Frontier Alliance a few years ago. And as I mentioned, the Alliance is made up of over 70 grassroots and community-based groups and student-led groups across the US. And each of those groups is autonomous. So I think it's important to point out that we come together to share resources and tips and support each other's work. But none of the groups are beholden to a given political analysis or ideology, even if it's EFF's viewpoint. All the groups are autonomous and what we really do call us around five key principles. And those are free expression, security, privacy, creativity, access to knowledge and innovation. And many of the groups in the Alliance kind of fit into three major buckets I often refer to. One is the hacker spaces like Crash Space in Los Angeles or Rude Access in Fresno, that are creating opportunities for our spaces for folks to come in and to share tools and resources to innovate and take real control of the devices that they own. And they're also advocacy groups like Oakland Privacy in the Bay Area or Surveillance Technology Oversight Project in New York that are fighting to defend and protect and advance the rights of their neighbors and their loved ones. And the third bucket is there are groups that specialize in popular education and really giving people in their community and their neighborhoods, in their schools, wherever they are, the information that they need to make informed choices around the ways that they interact with their technology and the internet. And some examples of those might be Crypto Party Ann Arbor in Michigan or Teefer Tech in New York. And today we're going to speak with representatives of four of the Alliance groups. And I think this conversation is really important to have because not only is it important to lift up the brilliant organizing that is happening in cities across the US, but also because I think it's important to recognize that this isn't always easy work, but it is work that we can all be engaging in wherever we live. Not just that, but there are groups and an entire network that is poised to support you in all of that works if you'll take the first step. And also that while I'm really honored to be work to have the opportunity to work alongside my brilliant colleagues at the EFF who command a broad range of expertise, you are the expert in the conditions and needs of your community. So again, as Rob mentioned, welcome to the EFA session, a discussion on grassroots organizing for digital privacy, security, free expression, creativity and access to knowledge. So the first person I want to introduce to the first of the folks that I'm joined here with is Emily St. Pierre. Emily is a security ambassador for Future ADA, a Spokane-based nonprofit advocating for diversity and inclusion in STEAM, so science, technology, arts and mathematics and engineering obviously. And excuse me. For the past six years, Emily has used her experience as an offensive security professional to provide privacy and security education within her community. And through her work with Future ADA, Emily has established free regular workshops and one-on-one technical support to the Spokane community. And Emily's focus has been in making sure that these resources are explicitly available to underrepresented and under-supported members of the public. So Emily, Future ADA is such an awesome name. Can you start off by telling us a bit about the significance of that name and what need in your community Future ADA was launched to address? Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Nash, for this nice introduction. So Future ADA is named after the Countess of Lovelace or Ada Lovelace, as many folks know her. And she was a mathematician, a writer, among many other things, but she's often recognized as being the first computer programmer. And so Future ADA was founded by my wonderful colleague, Rebecca Long, who is a fellow woman in IT. And after facing many challenges in the industry, she had a vision to start a nonprofit which would help promote diversity and inclusion within areas of steam. In the hopes of helping the Future ADA Lovelaces of tomorrow realize their potential. So our nonprofit puts on and participates in events to help promote interest in those areas of steam in the Spokane, Washington area. And my role specifically as security ambassador is really to help first, promote interest in privacy and security within the community. And secondly, provide access to privacy and security professionals, too, as you mentioned, underrepresented groups, but we include really the general public in that as well. Awesome, thank you. Definitely a lot I wanna dig into there. So thanks, it's really great to have you with us today, Emily. And next, I'd like to introduce Abhi Hassan of Black Movement Law Project. And in full disclosure, Abhi and I have worked together for a number of years. In fact, after years of doing legal support in a range of contexts, Abhi, also international human rights attorney, Nicole Lee, and I founded Black Movement Law Project to support the building of Black-led legal support infrastructure in the US. And it was actually Abhi's idea for BMLP to join the Alliance way before I started working at EFF. And for us to do our first round of digital security trainings. And Abhi is also an attorney and a technologist. He's currently a partner at O'Neill and Hassan LLP, a law practice focused on indigent defense. And prior to his work, he was the, prior to his work with BMLP and with Hassan and O'Neill, he was the mass defense coordinator at the National Lawyers Guild. And Abhi's also worked as a political campaign manager and strategist, a union organizer, a community organizer. And Abhi continues to conduct trainings and to speak and to write on topics of race, technology, justice, or maybe injustice, if you will, and the law. And so Abhi, I mentioned that like most of the EFA groups fit into like three major buckets. BMLP is kind of an outlier in that model. Can you talk a little bit about why a movement legal support organization would be concerned with digital privacy and security? Yeah, I mean, to me it seems obvious, but I might as well explain it. You know, frankly, it really just came from, particularly in the kind of post Ferguson moment, post Ferguson moment 2014, 2015, 2016, doing legal support work for protests, which means kind of helping people navigate the incarceration system, helping people get out of jail, helping people create those kinds of helping people prepare for interaction with the criminal system, but also helping people navigate it. And so it just, it kind of came naturally that we just, you know, we were used to doing things like know your rights trainings and helping people set up legal offices and understand how to organize volunteers and manage databases and stuff. But it became very clear kind of in that post Snowden moment, but also as people just themselves individually experienced and organization experience more and more surveillance that we just, people just kept asking us about it and kept saying, you know, how do we, what about my phone? Is it safe to do this? And so we ended up partnering with the EFF and kind of I think when the EFA was first really starting as a concept. And I think we were one of the first organizations to join up and started doing a series of know your rights trainings, but that incorporated digital surveillance training and digital security. And then we've partnered with EFF to help, you know, we've consulted on how to develop the digital surveillance guide, the SSD. And just it's been a great partnership I think because, you know, we have a lot of experience of that on the ground kind of crisis management and protest experience, but then having the resources of EFF to help build tools has been a great experience. Yeah, and the security education companion as well. I know that was another tool that we helped. Absolutely, absolutely. Give him some feedback on, yep. And so, yeah, thank you, Abby. And our next speaker really needs no introduction. Freddie Martinez is the director of Lucy Parsons Lab. And Freddie's also a technologist and an expert on surveillance. He was previously a Ford Mozilla open web fellow at Freedom of the Press Foundation focusing on their secure drop platform. And he's also an expert on the Freedom of Information Act. And in Freddie's own words, Freddie is very litigious about FOIA. So Freddie, what was the inspiration for starting Lucy Parsons Lab? And what are some of the things that you're most proud of about Lucy Parsons Lab's work historically and currently? Yeah, so the project sort of got its name from Lucy Parsons, who's a very famous labor organizer from Chicago. We were all living and working in Chicago. And we got inspiration from her because when she died, the Chicago Police Department and the FBI raided her house and took all of her papers, all of her manuals and pamphlets and all of that stuff. So really kind of taking our name from a Chicago-based organizer who really kind of was seen as a major, I don't know, threat to power or whatever it is. But a lot of us were really interested in these ideas of police surveillance, technology, security, and just took like a sort of a survey of the landscape and realized that there are groups, big groups, like the EFF who are doing a lot of the work that we were very much interested in, but we realized that we don't sort of need to depend on them. We have a place to just do our own thing. And there was no need for us to get trained or anything like that. We just had to be sort of motivated, inspired, and just get started. So that's where LPL came from. And it's been a wildly successful project way beyond our imaginations. So there's a few things that we're really proud of. The one that I'm most proud of was we were doing it, very deep investigation onto how cell phone, tracking technologies and softwares used in Chicago. And we had national press about it, the logout changed, warm requirements got put into place. But the reason I'm most proud about that is because years later, I got contacted by someone who said that their client had their case dropped because the police were lying about how they got the evidence and things like that. And this person had their entire life that they could have gotten taken away from them because of sort of shady police practice and a huge violation of their rights to do process. So I'm really proud about that one in particular. And the other one that I'm really proud of is our current work around facial recognition technology. There's another talk I'm giving later about a different facial recognition vendor. And that one was kind of really groundbreaking. So I'm really proud of our work because Chicago is such a massively surveilled city that we have a really deep fight, but we have a huge coalition of people that are sort of pushing. So I would say those two things for sure. Awesome, thanks, Freddie. And yeah, definitely a lot of really instrumental fights that, and Lucy Parks Lab, not only just in their advocacy, but also in helping get a lot of information that's supported other folks' advocacy and journalism and other things too. And so thanks a lot for all the work that y'all do there. It's super important. And so, and finally I want to introduce Elliot of Cypert Collective. And Elliot is a motion artist and creative coder who works in interactive fabrication and large-scale immersive experiences. And Elliot blends visual work with an interest in mutual aid security and privacy online. And I want to note that Brooklyn is overrepresented in this group today. Even though I live in the Bay now, originally from Brooklyn, Abby also out there now. And Elliot, Cypert Collective does amazing work with the Brooklyn Public Library and just throughout the borough. And so thanks for holding this down. So Elliot, in non-COVID times, Cypert puts on a range of workshops, socials and other events. Why is that? Why not just stick to one format? Yeah, I think it was because going back to the beginning of the group, one of the reasons that it was really started was because we felt that there weren't enough security groups that also dealt with the context in which people were seeking out help and being able to give that help in a way that was tailored to sort of where they were coming from instead of just kind of offering one size fits all training that might not be as accessible to the average person. And I think building on that idea of accessibility and the idea that to help people with security, you need to be able to reach them in many different ways that kind of ended up leading to the approach of instead of us just focusing on one type of event, one type of workshop, having a variety of ways so that there's kind of a lot of ways for people who are interested in security to get connected with us and learn what they need to know to make their lives more secure so that that might be something like a very technical presentation or it could be something that's more of a social event to establish a community in which people can feel comfortable being involved. So I think that's why we've had so many different types of events to be available to different types of people. And incidentally, obviously none of us could really have predicted how 2020 ended up going but having a lot of different things that we did helped to make it easier for us to move online, not being able to have in-person events and giving us that flexibility. Thanks, Ellie. And pulling that out a little bit, I know one of the events that y'all have done in the pre-COVID times anyway was the security events, which I thought was really interesting in the way that it kind of made some difficult conversations more approachable and kind of like reduced the stress and made it a less stressful anxiety-prone kind of environment to have those conversations. Can you talk a little bit about what that, what security security was and the thinking behind it? Right, so security was probably one of our best known events. It was a regular event that we would have and we always had a topic that was sort of, what we were gonna cover in that event, but for all the securities, we tried to make it as open-ended as possible and as much of a conversation where we were listening to our attendees as opposed to just broadcasting out information, although we had that if it was needed. And I think it kind of goes back to that event. I'm glad you brought it up. It's kind of a great example of, we were trying to create an event that could help people learn about security, but in like a very social, non-confrontational, not like this is a tech event type of format so that people can just come and feel like they're having a conversation, meeting new people, but it's also a great thing to get what they came for in terms of being more secure. Yeah, and for folks who haven't had the opportunity to attend one, security. And I think it's important that I point out that it's spelled S-E-C-U-R-I-T-E-A. And so it's like a very social event that happens at one of New York's most known like kind of radical bookstores. So people come and literally like sit down and have tea and maybe a snack and just kind of have a dialogue that focuses around issues in security and creating kind of an opportunity to have it in a way that's in a kind of a supportive environment. And I think that's really beautiful. And so kind of building on that string, Freddie, it feels like we're living through a lot of different crises at this moment. How has that impacted the way that you and Lucy Parsons Lab do your work and how you think about your work? So that's a great question. We've been doing less in some ways. Like one of the things that we do a lot now is we just have fun and play video games on our Twitch channel, twitch.tv slash Lucy Parsons Labs. Shameless self-promotion. And we've decided that like there are a lot of things that we could help with, but at first like we just got to have fun. We got to have joy and we got to bring that to the front of our practices. That's very really important in order to maintain our sanity. So that's the first thing. And the other thing that we sort of started to do is find where people on the ground need support. So for example, one of the bond funds in Chicago, the Chicago Community Bond Fund, needed help with their website because they're getting so many donations that it would just crash the site, which is a great problem to be having, not a great problem when you need to donate money. And so what we did was we just spent a few, we've been doing this for about a few months now, trying to figure out how to both keep their site up and then also fix the technical problems on the backend. And there's only a few of us. And so there's a lot of moving pieces. Yeah, and just like not really jumping, like being in our community, but like not jumping in with technical solutions, like listening to what people's needs are and just using what we know technically to help them out. And that's really important. Like I think we all want to do everything that we can right now. It feels like everything's on fire, probably because it is, but we also just need to sort of slow down and just realize that people have mailing lists that they need help figuring out. People need to know how MailChimp works. Things like that that are probably way more impactful than sort of anything else that we could be designing technologically. So I would say those two things, like slowing down, having fun, finding small projects where we're not doing new things. We're like amplifying and helping support the work of others. And I think that's those are the two major things sort of we've learned in the last couple of months. Thanks, Freddie. And building on what Freddie just offered, Abhi, I know you and I have spoken a lot about the ways that we can be providing the more infrastructure and tools to help folks that are doing movement work. And sometimes it seems like even though technologists are, in my experience, they're often very politically aware, they're lives as technologists or as hackers, and as people who are politically active are often siloed. In what ways would you like to see hackers and other technologists become more engaged? And what do you think is important for them to keep in mind in order to do that in a way that is supportive of the movements they wanna work with? Yeah, thanks. I really love what Freddie just said because that, I feel like encapsulates a lot of what I would say, right? Like, if you haven't done the type of work that people are doing, it's easy for technology-focused people to not appreciate that like other people's time is their life, right? And like adopting new technologies or the best, most secure, or I think back on GPG parties and think like, what could we have done with that time that we all know now is wasted, right? Like, that getting into understanding the work that people are doing, and that might come through very informal interactions or just having those periods of slowing down. But I think that the word, you mentioned the word infrastructure, which is I think very key is understanding what are the critical elements that make an organization function? And it might be the most helpful thing to help people figure out how to save five minutes a day on those things, right? Because five minutes a day is however many hours, right? A year that is people who are, when people are dedicating their lives to movement work and they're spending two hours doing something that they could be doing in five minutes might not be the most perfect thing, but it takes the technologist's time to understand the process, right? And to understand how, like to understand those critical points. And so, you know, I think that understanding at a bigger level what wheels are being reinvented, what processes could be streamlined or made simpler. And that requires, you know, that does require spending more time with people and also interacting at different levels with organizations and other technologists because one thing I've noticed from spending more over a decade now in kind of that social justice activist technology space is there are lots of things that are being reinvented and there are lots of opportunities to create common infrastructure that we don't have the like mental and we don't have the physical and we just don't have the organizational space to understand those things as problems. Like, you know, we have hope every couple of years, which I think is probably a pretty good space for that. But we, you know, we need more than every couple of years. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, and one of the things that I've done, I really like what you've pulled out around like listening to folks. One of the things that I've done has been the most helpful in that way is just at the library in San Francisco every week they have a day where folks can come in and folks that live, you know, in the Bay you have folks that from EFF and Google and the other tech giants that will just volunteer their time, like go to the library for an hour or two hours every week and people from the community will come in and ask questions. And you might know some really complicated things, but sometimes there are such really simple ways of the ways that people's devices are not intuitive to them that just like get highlighted for you in a way that you wouldn't, if you just, if you weren't spending the time to just hear people's everyday questions that wouldn't even stand out for you in that way because you just take so many, you take some of that for granted. So like listening is just such an important part. I really appreciate that, Abhi. And for Emily, you know, this is hope, right? And so what are some of the things that the hacker community could be doing? Are there things that folks could start doing today that would help meet some of the needs that you're seeing? Yeah, absolutely. And like to continue on to Abhi and your point, you know, how powerful listening is and not just that, but reaching out directly to people and other organizations, you know, as technology-oriented folks or as technology literate folks, you know, some of the ways we can also help are by asking local nonprofit organizations, you know, what do you need help with? And not just in, you know, areas such as tech support, but also research, right? For example, we have a local nonprofit here, the YWCA, and they have, you know, an intimate partner violence support organization under this who, you know, was looking for ways to help their clients find and detect surveillance devices in their vehicles, you know, and this is something that they just didn't know who to turn to. But it's a perfect area of research for someone who is a technologist or who is a hacker. And then you can find these novel ways and establish this relationship. And it's just a great way to also find research and to find topics that, you know, will have a lot of impact within your community. So as a hacker, you know, just getting out there, and if you don't find those spaces, you know, create them. One of the things I wanted to do, and that got me where I am today in my work with Futurata was because I really wanted to address a topic of online abuse. I wanted to talk about privacy. I wanted to share my knowledge of, you know, different ethical hacking topics as I was learning them. And I didn't know of a space that did that. I didn't know. So I just started creating these workshops. Back then when I was in Las Vegas was with us in shop, our local Las Vegas Hacker space. And then since I made to Spokane, I went ahead and just put myself out there and went and found Rebecca and I'm part of Futurata. And I get to continue to do this in an even more impactful way as I've grown because I've created those spaces and I've gotten to learn from that. And I've gotten to learn from the different communities that we interact with. So I just say, you know, get in there and just start talking to people, start listening to them. And just, you'll find people that need help pretty soon enough if you get out there. You know, and I know, Elliot, you just had a panel around stalkerware and I know Emily from conversations that we've had that and what you just shared also that helping people navigate situations that come out of domestic abuse or other types of misogyny in our culture. And obviously this is an issue that really drives a lot of the work of my colleague Eva Galperin. And one of the reasons that we created the security education companion was because we recognized that it wouldn't be responsible or sustainable for EFF to just jump into every community and think that we had the answers and understood the context of the problems that people were having, but rather would make more sense to be able to give folks a resource that they could use in order to be better support systems for people that are in their communities. So especially like in a situation when you're dealing with stalkerware, but also in some of the other situations that Freddie and Abby have mentioned already, one of the most critical things is being able to develop trust, right? And people are, when you're asking people to share situations with them and whether it be something very sensitive, you know, like the situation that might lead up the problems with potentially stalkerware or even if it's the situations of racial and economic injustice or just, you know, like I mentioned the people at the library, telling, being able to open up and say and talk to people about something that you feel insecure about and like your lack of knowledge about, you know, the way your device works. At the core of that, and being able to serve people is being able to build trust, right? And to, so that people feel comfortable in sharing things and things that they might feel vulnerable about. What are, and I leave, I open this to the floor, but maybe if Emily, if you wanna start off and then if there's anyone that wants to jump in, what are some of the ways that you found that have been helpful in building that trust? Definitely there's something to say with establishing your name, you know, and there's some things that will take time. You know, you can't rush sometimes building trust with certain organizations and with certain people, you just have to wait and do the work. But also with our clients, like we have something we're on Saturdays, we have open office hours, we call it, and we offer free help, it's one-on-one, with an information security professional. And you can ask them really any question, help with whether it be anything from cyber stalking, online abuse, research, you just have, you wanna know which AB vendor works for you and things of the sort. We were just there to address any question and we take a client kind of centric approach to that and in the sense that we wanna make sure that we're not coming in and just telling everyone what to do. We are coming in listening to folks and we wanna make sure that we give them options but at the end of the day, the choice is theirs, right? They get to pick, the power is in their hands to choose what they wanna do with their technology. We're just providing them some information and some options. And that's definitely been helpful and making sure that people understand that we kind of don't have really an agenda, we're just here to help them and at the end of the day, the choice is theirs and that's been very, very helpful for us. And I think just to, I guess, agree with everything you just said and build on it and I kinda wanna lead off with something that actually, I hope you don't mind me repeating it but you, Freddie said, when we were planning out this session is the importance of being humble and I think that that's so important because the thing to realize is that in some, maybe not all cases, but in a lot of cases when a person comes to an organization like any of ours around security, it's because they've already had an incident where their security has been violated and that has already massively eroded whatever trust they might have had in strangers, in other people, in their intimate partners, in the police, all these different categories. So you're kind of starting the conversation on security in a place where there might be more of a lack of trust than just an unusual interaction. So I think it's like being humble and just showing that you can be there as an organization and be available to help for when people want to ask for it is so important because unfortunately, the security thing is people don't usually get interest in security unless they've had a problem with somebody violating their trust. And so it's very important to understand kind of like the holistic mental state that people come in with, which is not usually just sort of an academic or technical interest, it's because something bad has happened to them. Yeah, I mean, and just to kind of, one thing that we often say in our group is that sometimes it's easier to train someone who's like more politically aware or has a better sense of how to interact as a person in technology than to take a technologist and do the other way. So definitely like, I think it's important to just realize that like our skills are as technologists are replaceable. Like we've all learned the same stuff through different avenues. So humility and the other is really important. The other thing I wanna say is that it's really important to be part of the community. Like we've talked about this a few times, part of the community that you're in. The reason that we have so such deep networks with the current and emerging organizing groups that are happening in Chicago is because we've had, I guess I have like a decade now of having been out with people, met people in the streets and seen what they were talking about, see what they were doing. And to give you an example, a few, maybe two months ago, someone was asking me about the surveillance airplanes that were flying around Washington DC and how that makes protesters feel. And I was able to talk about that a little bit, but also I'm telling the story about like having been tear gas two days ago at the White House for no apparent reason. And I'm not suggesting that you go out and get tear gas to have a story about surveillance. But what I'm saying is that this is like, you have to be a part of these communities and know what the lived experiences in order, or at least empathetic to those lived experiences in order for people to have credibility in you. So like, usually the way that this works with groups is like, they know me or they know LPL and they say, hey, we need help with X, Y, and Z tech thing. Can you help? And that trust has been built in already, but that's been years and almost a decade of building relationships with people. So it's almost automatic, but it wasn't like sort of emerged out of nowhere. Like now it's very organic. Now everyone just trusts each other inherently, but that relationship comes out of a long history. And so yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you put in the work and like I can't underscore the importance of humility enough. And so thanks for sharing that also. Abhi, what are your thoughts? I'll just say Roku, I think what everyone said is good. I think, I would add in just kind of the concept of solidarity that as a technologist or even as a lawyer or, your job isn't necessarily to try to like preach your politics or shove your politics onto other organizations, but I think that it's important to articulate and to find points of solidarity and find points of agreement and even articulate points of disagreement and to show up, right? And if you're not showing up, there's different ways of showing up also, right? That like you're not, I just, I think that it's important to be a full human, right? And that like part of that is humility, but part of that is also like, as a technologist, you're not going and telling people what they should think, but maybe you should tell people what you think in a different format or a different form and invite them, right? Like build networks, build community, build solidarity. And I think that part of that is building our political analysis and sharing it. Thank you. And so I wanna make sure we're saved time for folks that are joining us to be able to ask their questions. So I just wanna go around like one, as before we move into as like kind of a final question before we open up the floor for the people that are joining us, what is like the one thing that each of you would say is like the most key thing that you'd wanna share with people who want to start doing this work and also, and if you could also incorporate that, like what is the best way that folks could get in touch if they wanted support or if they wanted to support the groups that y'all are working with, what is the best way that they could go about trying to move that forward. So let's do another round the same way we did. So it'll be Emily, Elliot, Freddie and Abby, and then we'll go open up the floor. I invite people to look at their own unique experiences and to see what it is that they might be able to offer, whether that be as a perspective, whether that be regarding knowledge, maybe they're just even resources. Look at what it is that you have and find something that you are passionate about because we want people that are passionate. It just makes things easier. Just both for you as someone who is coming in who wants to be involved and the people that you will be working with and encountering, yeah, just find, take some time to reflect. Or I mean, maybe just jump into something and say if you like it or not, both are great options. But I invite all hackers to be more involved with their community and not to be afraid to go ahead and volunteer. And we're Future ADA. You can find us at Future ADA.org. We're always looking to get new volunteers on board. We're always looking to collaborate on security research projects. So you can reach us at Future ADA.org. We have all our information there. Thank you, Emily and Elliot. I mean, I think I agree with everything that you just said. I guess to start off with the best way to get in contact with us is our email is CypherCYPURR at protonmail.com and our website is Cypher.nyc. I think if you wanna get involved, don't overthink it. Go to meetings, put yourself out there. If you're in a place where you feel like there isn't an organization that deals with what you're interested in, create it yourself and put yourself out there. And I think that getting out in the community, things will happen very quickly. Freddie. Yeah, I guess my one takeaway I would say is that there's this thing that we say in Chicago is that we all we got, like no one's coming to save us. We have to keep ourselves safe. We have to protect each other. So just thinking about like, this is it. Everyone here is, we have to decide for ourselves how we wanna live our lives. So you just have to be organized. And what I mean by that is like, I wish when I had started out, someone had told me to like to keep better like paper records and stuff like that. So I would say just be organized and just realize that like literally like no one's like, no one's coming to save us. We have to keep each other safe. And so that's like the one thing I would say is really important for people to take away from this talk. So if you forget everything that I had said, just remember that we have to keep each other safe. Yeah, I think, I imagine from what you just shared, it was probably you, Freddie, but I remember that when we were having our initial talks to like decide what this panel would look like. You know, we were talking about the we all we got and someone said the Calvary's not coming, right? Like just drive it home to the Calvary's not coming. We are the Calvary, right? And so if there's things in your world, if there's things in your community that you care about, like, there's people that wanna support you. There's a network of people that wanna support you, but you are the person that needs to step up. So we invite you to join us in that fight and Abby. I guess I would prompt people to think about leveraging their power, right? I think that we all come to whatever we're doing with a lot of background and a lot of history. And I think that it's, you know, think about what assets you have, what networks you have, what connections you have, what you have that might be leveraged. Like you might be part of an organization that you never even thought about, that you could be best, most effective trying to change that organization or trying to use that existing organization to do the thing that you're trying to do now, right? Like expand your analysis and bring that with you as like, as options, right? Cause what we need is options, we need flexibility, we need power, and we need to think about ways of leveraging it. So, you know, I would say that, you know, expand your thought. Thank you, absolutely. And so we have a question from the audience which is what are the next goals for the EFA and how does the EFF plan to evolve it? So I guess I'll step in for that one. And so the goals of the EFA are certainly to continue to make sure that we're lifting up the work that's happening on the local level in those communities. EFF is not, you know, there's no way that EFF would have the capacity to be able to really engage and be aware of all of the concerns and the things that are happening on the local fights everywhere. And so what we've really been, what's one of the beauty of the EFA from the vantage point that I have is the way that all of the groups support each other and also the ways that like, honestly, like from an EFF point of view is that there are so many times when there are fights that we wouldn't be aware of that we should be engaging in and supporting if it wasn't for the fact that folks that are in those communities that are being most directly impacted by it, let us know, they reach out and say, this is the thing that's happening right now and are there ways that you can support? And similarly also, you know, a lot of times when there's local fights where the weather be that when we're fighting for community control over police surveillance or we're trying to ban face surveillance, the local lawmakers, you know, we've been really successful in banning face surveillance in San Francisco and Oakland and Davis and Berkeley and, you know, supporting the fights that we've seen with face surveillance past in Boston and Somerville and Springfield and East Hampton, North Hampton. But those, in all of those areas, the fights that, and Freddie right now is involved in the fights is to ban face surveillance in Chicago. And, you know, and as Freddie mentioned earlier, like a lot of those in those fights, as much as EFF is here and ready to support and step up and engage in those fights, those lawmakers want to hear from their constituents. They want to hear from people in their communities and you are each of you, not just the folks on the panel, but everyone that's listening to, you're the expert of the context within your community. And so we want to be able to, so EFF, sort of what we see moving forward is an even stronger network. And I think one of the things that we're working toward is having it not be like a hub and a spoke model where like EFF is at the center and like information flows in and out that way, but continuing to grow it more into a web. And that's why it's so much of like the, I'm so motivated to be lifting up the work that each of those groups are doing because I want like all of the groups in the Alliance and for the Alliance to grow in such a way that the groups are all sharing information and skills and resources with each other, not simply with like EFF being a bottleneck or I can do it through which that information flows. So yeah, so that's in the future, I just more of that and more of a web and less of a hub and a spoke. And the next question is, are panelists okay with being contacted directly with questions or problems or should work through the website and publish contact information? And I think that that, I would imagine that that depends on the individual context and the group, but if there's any other stuff that y'all want to add, I'll let y'all answer that for yourselves. Yeah, I would just say, I would hate to disappoint and say contact me directly just because I get a lot of emails and I'm quite terrible at it to be honest. So I would say just contact our mailing list. We have info at lucypartsingslives.com. Usually there's someone who can respond. But yeah, I would say that not to be like, I'm too busy, but I don't want to tell you something that would be wrong. So I would say just hit up our mailing list if you have questions. Yeah, and I would also say like for folks that keep in mind that a lot of the folks in the Alliance, these are folks that are volunteering their time to support their community. So capacity, whereas I can, it's easy for me to say, hey, email nasherdff.org or email organizingadff.org and you'll be able to get right in touch with me and the team at EFF. I spend over 40 hours a week, like I have the privilege of being that I'm supported by the folks that are listening right now and everyone that supports EFF and being able to put my work into this full time, but also to recognize that a lot of the folks that are doing this work in their communities are doing this in addition to full-time employment and other activism and work that they're doing. So just being compassionate and understanding that that is the context. Yeah, and a lot of people doing the work don't wanna be public-facing either. So I would say that I don't have a problem with getting in front of a camera, but a lot of people who are way more willing to help you or have more capacity just won't be in front of the screen. And that's actually a very important lesson about sort of organizing work. It's always the people behind the scenes who are really getting this shit done. So I would say definitely hit up the mailing list because more people will see it and probably people who have more capacity and who are closer to the actual work. Absolutely. So we've gotten our two-minute warning. We're coming at the end of our time. I definitely wanna leave an opportunity. There's anything that any of the panelists wanna add before we close out. I also wanna remind folks also that you can find out more about the electronic frontier alliance by going to eff.org slash fight. That's the EFA page and find out and if you're a part of a group in your community that wants to join, please do so. And so also I'm gonna give you an opportunity for anyone on the panelists to add anything. And also to recognize the last question that we have here which is there any guidance on building community online when you can't meet in person? I think for that last question just to very briefly say it and I think that a couple of us have touched on it a lot already. Is that I think in this new world where people can't meet on person don't be having a social aspect to online meetings is so important for people because they're missing that anyway because we're all cooped up. And so that can be a great way to do the things that we were talking about building trust, building relationship to get into deeper topics. So that's what I would say about a way to connecting online these days. Thank you. Yeah, like I said earlier, gotta have fun. I love our Twitch channel even though it's very silly and Discord is great. There are a lot of good servers out there. Definitely just anything that makes people feel happy. We just gotta find that and we gotta go look for it. It's actually an active process too. And also add make sure you're very clear in your code of conduct, have a code of conduct online and be clear in how you want people to communicate with each other and with you. Absolutely. And I'd be with the last word. Keep, you know, yeah, keep building networks, building, you know, build with each other. Like even I've noticed building small groups just with kind of mini affinity groups of signal chats or WhatsApp, whatever platform people are using to keep your networks building and thinking about different ways of connecting when we all get back into a physical space again. Awesome. So thanks again to all of my panelists, Cypher Collective, Lucy Parsons Lab, Black Movement Law Project and Future ADA and for everyone that's joining. Thanks for all the support that you all have given throughout the last 30 years in supporting EFF and please reach out and there's a network of folks across the country that wanna support you in advocating in your community. Thank you.