 Our first speaker of the day in the developer and designer track, that's track two here is David Zimmerman. David has been consulting companies on their SEO strategies and tactics for over 15 years. He's helped everyone from publicly traded companies to mom-and-pop businesses. Eight years ago, David started his own internet marketing company in Charlotteville, North Carolina, Reliable Acorn, LLC. Recently, he launched curiousants.com to share what he's learned about SEO best practices with others. And today's talk, things well-meaning developers do to hurt SEO in 2023. So everybody give a warm welcome to David. Anyhow, everybody, I'm glad you're here today and glad I get to speak early because then you're excited and awake. And then later in the afternoon, we'll all be having a little food coma after lunch. So glad you're here. So this is really a talk and trying to talk to developers. I hate SEO talks and developers really hate SEO talks. But I want us to have and find a common ground today, which is ultimately you may never want to do SEO for your clients. But I know you want to deliver a better product to your clients. A website that is set up to be findable, indexable, servable by the search engines, right? This is what we want. And the whole purpose of this talk today is to help you as a developer to know what you can do to deliver a better product to your clients that's more ready for SEO. So when we talk about SEO, I do always need to take a moment and define it because I find that at this point, everybody's LinkedIn profile says they do SEO. Every CMS promises SEO. Every email platform promises SEO. Everybody says SEO, but so we need to point out what are we talking about here? And I just want to define SEO as helping customers find what you have to offer. That's SEO. Your customers are looking for what you've got. And if we do SEO, we're helping connect customers to what you have to offer via your website. That's really what we are. But I think we need to take a moment and talk about what SEO is not also to clear it on the same page. SEO is not all web marketing. There are many ways to market a business online. But SEO is just one of them. You know, sometimes a client will say, Hey, David, would you SEO my email for me? No. Because that's a different form of marketing, right? Search is demand driven. If people are looking for what you have to offer, search is an excellent marketing channel. If people don't know what you have to offer, what you offer is so first to market that people don't know you solved the problem that they have yet. That's great. Congratulations. But search isn't your play, right? Search responds to customer demand. It doesn't create demand for a product. So SEO is one way to market a website, but it is not all web marketing. Second of all, and it kind of hurts me to say this a little bit, as much as I love SEO, it's not for everybody, right? Again, SEO responds to products demand. If people are looking for your service, SEO can help them find you. But if people don't know it exists yet, you've got such a unique angle to your product or service. You need to consider SEO, but that's probably not the way you're going to grow your business. Also amongst commodities, SEO can be really, really hard. If you're offering something that's just like everybody else has to offer, oh, SEO is going to be a hard play. You need to take additional steps in your marketing funnel to make sure people not only know what you have, but know how it's different, right? So we just need to understand SEO isn't necessarily for every business. This really frustrates me. So many people say SEO is just really about knowing the secret sauce. You know, hey, you know what? If you use this tool and you install my plug-in and I'll put the keywords in the keyword tag, you've done SEO. Because we've tricked Google or my favorite is at these like local networking events where someone said, you know, my SEO, you know, they optimize the keyword tags on their TikToks. And that led to this because then that's the secret sauce to now SEO. Why are we trying to find whatever the secret thing is? Like SEO done right, it's just good marketing. It's not finding some secret that maybe possibly works for a week or two into Google and their immensely powerful web computing resources figures out you're trying to cheat the system and change the algorithm again, right? Are we chasing an algorithm or are we trying to market and promote what we have to offer? Don't think of good SEO as trying to trick Google. And this, this is where I step on developers' toes a little bit. So that's not a great way to start the talk. SEO is not set it and forget it. It's not the showtime or tisry chicken thing. Okay, thank you. A lot of reference here. You know, we can't just like SEO website and walk away, right? As a developer, let's get this out of our nomenclature and our contracts and our promises to our clients. Your clients are going to be disappointed if you deliver an SEO website. And that's the only SEO you've done, right? SEO is done is an ongoing process. It's an ongoing thing not only because Google's algorithm is changing hundreds of times a year, but Google loves new stuff on your website. So you have to keep up with it. You can tell your clients, I'm going to set your website up for SEO success if you decide to do an SEO campaign. But please don't promise that even if you implement all of the recommendations that I say here, your clients' websites are now SEO'd, right? I knew someone who said, I SEO'd the website. I installed Yoast. I think Yoast is a great plug. I use Yoast. I like Yoast. But that's not SEO, right? Or don't even get me started about some rush. All right, so SEO is not set and forget it. And SEO is not dead. I wanted to put like a Monty Python. I'm not quite dead yet picture here, but copyrights and all that. I know we're going to have a huge disruption coming up. Not just in search, but in websites. Thank you, chat, GPT, right? But it's not quite dead yet. SEO is going to look really different. Fact is rank hasn't existed for years. I know there are ranking tools out there that are happy to take a subscription for you and tell you where you rank. But they've been lying to you for years. Rank doesn't really exist. And rank really won't exist when everyone is using language models to answer their questions. So SEO will change. Wordpress will still be very relevant in that world. But I just don't want us to think SEO is dead because chat GPT. It's going to look different. But there's still these things that we're talking about basically are how the search engines and pay attention to Bing, because they're beating Google at that chat and language learning search results, right? Even the Bard engineers are kind of laughing at it is so bad. So pay attention to Microsoft and Bing a little bit more. But just know SEO isn't quite dead yet. So let's talk about SEO. And when I talk and describe SEO, I like to break it down to these four key components. First of all, we've got to measure SEO. This is true not just of SEO. This is true of any web marketing you're doing. The value of marketing on the Internet is that we know it works. We're not buying a billboard and hoping enough people see it and enough people remember the website off the billboard or the phone number and call you and maybe then you get some business, right? We're not sending out hundreds of thousands of pieces of junk mail with the hope we get a customer out of that. Digital marketing is amazingly targeted. And if we can measure it, we can know whether it works and we should keep doing it. Or it doesn't work and we should modify our strategies or stop doing it altogether. But all web marketing, especially SEO is about measuring it. Second SEO is about crawling the website, right? We need to make sure that when Google sends its spiders to our website, they can read it. Now, this is where we're really glad to be WordPress and we're not JavaScript developers freaking out about whether Google can read our framework or not. WordPress does this really well but we need to consider it and we'll talk about some of the problems WordPress has with crawlability coming up. Third, and we finally get to what most people think of when they think of SEO is the content, right? That's the third step of SEO. We're not just optimizing content, whatever that's supposed to mean from day one. We need to make sure things happen before that. And then finally, we have to talk about how other websites reference your site. This is called link building. This is fundamentally what makes the Google search algorithm understand what your website is credible. And so we need to talk about how links affect it when we talk about SEO. And if we do these four things, we're doing SEO. So let's start with the first one, measurement. And that really starts with a good analytics system, right? Now, I have been using Google Analytics for a long time and I still think that's the best platform for you to begin. I know there's a lot of rumors out there that Google Analytics is illegal. Have you heard this? Okay, good, because it's kind of an exaggeration. There's a lot of people out there selling products that are trying to generate fear. Oh, by the way, you got to buy our cookie management plug-in because of fear. Or you got to buy our paid analytics platform because you're going to get into... No, okay, I'm not a lawyer to disappointment of my mother. But be careful about fear tactics when it comes to analytics. Google Analytics has, you know, talking about financial motivations. Google has a massive financial motivation to make sure it complies with laws and is doing a really good job pivoting there. I know GA4, which we have, what, seven days before we have to be on GA4. Which meant we should have done it a year ago. GA4 is different. It is actually better. But we need to install. Now, you're developers. You deliver websites and build them for clients potentially. Some of you are saying, you know what, David, Google Analytics is out of the scope of what I do. I'm not going to do it. In fact, my clients don't even want it. But I'm here to tell you it is worth your time to install it on your client's sites because if your client's sites succeed, they are going to thank you when you've been collecting that data for them. When they come back to you three to five years ahead into your website refresh, you have data showing them not just how many people found their website. So now your website's no longer a cost of doing business. It's sunk cost in their business. Hey, competing today's world, you got to have a website. Oh, I guess I got to pay whatever for a website. No, you can show them the value of their website whether they ever look at Google Analytics or not. So please install Google Analytics. It's easy. The Site Kit plugin from Google makes this real easy. I prefer to do Site Kit in Google Tag Manager because Tag Manager allows you to add and subtract other analytics scripts. You're doing Facebook marketing, you're doing MailChimp. You can add and subtract without monkeying with the code, right? Set that up so your clients, when they decide to do Facebook marketing or messing with the website you've delivered them, adding more plugins and making the site have bloat, set up Site Kit, use Tag Manager. One of the other advantages of Site Kit is it makes it really easy to set up Google Search Console, which is an amazing source of data. I know there are very expensive subscription-based SEO tools out there that are more than happy to take your money for data that you never look at. Might as well get it for free from Google and straight from the source, right? Google Search Console has so many actionable insights, but you as a developer, even if you're not doing an SEO campaign for them, you know you still get that call when someone has a problem on their website. Why am I not finding it? You hate those calls. Search Console is going to help you because you've installed it already. You've already collected the data. You can then use that to say, oh, and by the way, you probably need to hire someone to do search or something like that, right? But the point is you have the data, you're going to get the questions, have the data to be able to help them. Here's the best secret. Have you heard of a website called Bing? Okay, you're going to hear more about it because they're really winning in this battle. Bing Webmaster Tools. Wow. Don't underestimate this. All you have to do, once you set up Search Console, thank you, Sitekit, making that really easy. You just log in with your Google account and you give Bing access. Bing Webmaster Tools is already set up. Bing Webmaster Tools is better than Search Console. You can use Bing Webmaster Tools to optimize for Google, right? But there's a lot of really great tools. There's a crawling tool where you can set it out and say, hey, Bing, see, I even did it. Hey, Bing, crawl my website. Tell me all the errors and it gives you ranked prioritized suggestions to improve it. Like it's a pretty great little tool. Key research in Bing Webmaster Tools is really, really great for a free tool. So please take this time to do it. But don't just set up Google Analytics. Websites are trying to accomplish a goal, right? There is no such thing as a brochure website. I know your clients think they have a brochure website. I know they don't only want to pay for a brochure website, but the website is a tool for them to grow their business. What is the goal of that website to help them grow that business? Make sure you track that in Google Analytics. So you know not just traffic, not just where the traffic come from, but how many people purchased a product, how many people called them, how many people submitted a web form. This is the value. But even beyond that, Google will tell you that. I'm sorry to invoke the Bible here. The quality of a website is a function of the goal of the website. This is in two sources that are really important for everybody to know about. One is, don't make me think, which I'm pretty sure most of you have read, and highly great book if you haven't. And Google's Webmaster Review Guidelines. This is a document. Google will have people going and doing searches and evaluating the quality of those searches. This is a document that basically doesn't give you SEO secrets, but it does tell you what Google thinks should be quality. And in there, one of the most important things it states is the highest quality websites have a clear goal, meaning brochure websites are not high quality, and it's really easy for people to know what the goal of that website is. And that's just a good practice. So deliver a better product to your clients by making sure their website isn't just a traffic generator, isn't just a brochure that maybe someone would find possibly. Show them how it accomplishes a goal that helps them grow their business, build it into their website as you're building it. Frankly, if you don't do it when you're developing a website, I've got to do it and you don't want me monkeying in your website. Now we've got to talk about privacy. This year already there have been three laws passed about website and tracking and privacy, and this assumes you don't do business in Europe or Brazil. And in a week, July 1st, even more laws are coming into effect about website privacy. Pay attention to this because there are laws about collecting data and what you do with that data that you should be aware of. Pay attention to there are a lot of products out there that claim and maybe use a little threats and fear to incentivize you in this. I want you to be aware of this. I also don't want you to be afraid of this, but if you are installing an elix, help your clients out by protecting them with a good privacy system. So the first step of SEO is done. We can measure what's going on. I tell my clients you can try anything you want, but we're always going to measure it, right? But once we've done, set up the measurement, we can then proceed into SEO by trying to make sure Google can crawl. And like I said, WordPress is so good at this, like almost instantly Google can crawl any WordPress site as long as you allow it to do it, right? That little check box has made me so much money in SEO audits, right? Because Google really respects that little check box. A really good buddy is a WordPress developer, and he works really hard to make sure it's set up for SEO. And we launched this website six months later, and we're like, what the heck? And he called me and asked, he's talking with me about it. He's like, oh, no. He knew the first question I was going to ask was, is this unchecked, right? Please. What I would do if I was you as developers, always have a staging server that is password protected in the root. That's the only way to prevent Google from indexing a site besides this check box. But it will prevent you from accidentally leaving it when you migrate it to the live server, right? Or at least, like, launch website, check this check box, right? Like, make sure here, like, it's so funny. We've all done it, but let's just do it. All right, mobile. Google, at this point, is what we're doing, what we call the mobile-first index. In other words, they're evaluating the mobile version of your site when they try to decide whether they're going to serve it and search results. So mobile, in a way, this should change how we develop websites completely. We should shift our thinking of web design development to a mobile-first perspective, right? And there's several reasons for a mobile-first web design philosophy. The basic one is so many people, I know your clients don't think people look on their websites on their phones. Because you have Google Analytics, you can tell them that's not true, right? But Google is looking at the mobile version of your site. But the best reason is, and we'll talk about this in a second, if you start with a mobile-first design, your website inherently is going to be faster. Because you're building up to desktop, rather than displaying stuff and hiding it on mobile. So start from a mobile-first design perspective. And thank you, Google. They have got this really wonderful mobile-friendly test. This mobile-friendly test is super powerful. I know it seems boring. I have a client that uses the JavaScript framework website. This also tests whether Google can even read your website. So if you ever get a client, you want to just make sure Google can actually even look at the site, use the mobile-friendly page. You want it to be mobile-friendly, and yes or no, right? But that's not necessarily a scalable solution, because this is a page-by-page tool, right? And you really can't always run it on every single page. So thankfully you've set up a Google Search Console. And you can look at all your pages. And you can see whether all of your pages are mobile-friendly. And so that brings us to speed. Air quotes. When we talk about, SEOs talk about speed, it really is not the right word. I know everybody likes GT metrics and all this stuff. Google, when it's evaluating websites for speed, doesn't have a stopwatch, right? It is basing your speed on not three, but as of this week, four Webcore Vitals. By next year, they're going to add a fourth Webcore Vital. These Webcore Vitals are not like stopwatches on your website, but specific things that the Googlebot can mention that imply speed. In other words, if you get the four Webcore Vitals worked out, you're going to have a pretty fast website. They don't want to use a stopwatch because everybody's Internet Connections Depth Rent. Everybody's, you know, phones slow, fast. Like, you can't baseline that, but you can baseline these four Webcore Vitals. So the best way to do this is the PageSpeed Insights tool, which will not only tell you how you perform as a score between zero and 100 on the PageSpeed 3 coming to be four Webcore Vitals, but gives you specific recommendations of what are the problems. Again, don't run this on your homepage and say, hey, I got 100 on fast website. No, that's a page by page tool. But, oh, okay, I didn't have the slide. However, thank you Google Search Console. We get an overview of our whole website and where it runs. You're looking for, it grades it into three categories. Red, which means almost your website's being paid, your web page is being held back in the Google Search Vault because it's slow. Yellow, which is, hey, got some work to do. And green, which is, we will give you an SEO advantage because your website is fast. So you're aiming for green. You don't have to get 100 that aim for green. Search Console gives you an overview of all your site. Good thing you installed SiteKit in Search Console, right? Okay, so measure. We know it works because we can tell it works. Google crawling it. That's what we need to worry about first cross crawl when it comes to WordPress. Now we're getting to the words. The words, wordy please. All right, the words. I know that you hate putting words on websites. I know. I've had the conversation with you so many times. I know, I know when I write content for your site, it looks like I've omitted a dictionary. But the Bible told me so, right? The definitive volume on web usability. Steve really brings out the idea that people need to see words on the page because it invokes credibility, right? He's not, this is not an SEO textbook. This is a web page credibility web book, right? If I put a picture of a lawnmower on a web page, that could be the most beautiful high res lawnmower photo you've ever seen, but you don't know what I do. Do I sell lawnmowers? Do I repair lawnmowers? Do I sue companies for lawnmower error accidents? Do I just really like lawnmowers? A picture is not worth a thousand words, right? You gotta give me some words to know why I'm on this page, or at least when it comes to search, if I land on that page to assure me I'm in the right place. I've landed on a page that can repair my lawnmower near me. Awesome. I see a lawnmower picture, cool, I'm in the right area, and there's words telling me I can repair your lawnmower. Whoo, I can work with this website, right? You gotta have words. I'm sorry. Don't pull out the pitchforks and the torches. You gotta have 800 words on your page. There's nothing magical of 800? In fact, if you do a thousand, even better, I'm sorry. I know you don't like to hear that, but you need it. Not because Google's saying, oh, 799 words, I'm not gonna show you. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's because with 800 words, it's really hard to put a bunch of baloney on your website. With 800 words, you actually have to write something that's valuable and interesting. I find whenever I assign content to writers, if I do less than 800 words, it's just boring. They actually have to think about it to get to 800 words. So you gotta have words. Thank you. Those 800 words have to be unique. Don't use AI to generate content on your website. I know everybody's selling it. If in, sorry, when we move to AI, they do not want an echo chamber of AI providing answers based off AI-generated content. Right? I know it takes time to write website content. I'm just speaking to developers. I know your clients never get the content to you on time. Right? Hire a writer for them. Let them help your people write the content. Your efforts will pay off because everybody else is trying to trick Google. Everybody else is trying to cut corners. Initially, those websites will never be found. You taking time to write your own real content is going to be worth it. Invest now. Get the payments now. You don't have to wait. But we're talking WordPress development. There is a real problem in WordPress with the archive system. Whenever you have a category, gosh, if I meet whoever told someone that tagging blog posts is a good idea for SEO, I'm going to punch him in the face. Tags and categories create duplicate content, especially if the entire blog post is viewable on the blog post page, on the category page, on every page you've tagged, whatever word you thought some SEO thought, you're duplicating your content throughout your site. This has an SEO problem in that it makes Google try to figure out which page of these hundreds of pages with the same word should I serve in search results. We don't want Google to decide, tell them which one by using the excerpt function. This only shows on every archival page a small blurb, maybe the first paragraph, maybe the first hundred characters, and then make them go to the actual blog post. You can use the More button in every blog post to do this, but after doing that for a hundred blog posts, you're going to thank me to remind you about the excerpt function. Please just add that as you release posts. The RSS feed, another great source of duplicate content, only show the excerpt in your RSS feed, but images are important too. The fact is is that more people are turning to Google image search to find products in services, not just web search. So when you're building websites, make sure you use featured images within WordPress. This will help your social media marketing too, but it also on mobile search results. Again, more and more people are using mobile search results. You might find your featured image, make your website stand out in search results. Schema is super important. I'm going to get to questions in a sec. Schema is super important because it helps Google understand what you're talking about. I'll give you three digits, a dash, three digits, a dash, four digits, you know that's a phone number. Google does not pick up on the inference so well, so we use schema to encode things on websites, whether it's addresses, phone numbers, blog posts, whatever, to help Google understand what this stuff is. There's a whole thing we can do about schema. Yoast does schema really well. I know it's not cool. You can stick your tongue out all you want. Yoast does schema right on so many levels out of the box. Check using validator.schema.org if you're a coder. It's a great site, but the rich results for testing Google will show you what Google's showing with you as far as schema. Again, thank you for installing Search Console when you launch the website. You can see all the schema that Google's considering throughout your website. There it is. So now we've measured. We've set ourselves up for measure. Google can crawl our site. There's content that's not AI generated, thank you. And now we got to talk about what other websites say about you. Hey, your content in your website helps Google understand what you're talking about. But there's a lot of other websites that talk about lawnmower repair, whatever it is that you have to offer, right? Which is the best? The best website in Google's mind is the one that other people say, yeah, that's the great website. Awesome Paul's website is the best website. We know that because other websites link to Awesome Paul's website, right? So we need to make sure we consider how other websites link to us. Now, link building is another topic that probably outside the scope of building and serving up WordPress websites. But we do this by setting up proper URLs. We go into Search Console and Bing Webmaster Tools and it will show us potential errors on our URLs when it comes to link building we especially want to look for 404 errors. 404 errors don't pass link authority. So we need to set up a 301 redirect on every 404. By the way, if you see 404 errors in your WordPress website, you know those pages never existed. Another great way to find out if you've been hacked. So look for 404 errors, redirect those bad boys. This is the number one problem goes wrong. If you've ever launched a website and got a call a month later from your client and said, why has all my Google traffic disappeared? You might have missed the redirects. This is like after I checked the checkbox when I do a website audit. This is the second most common way new websites get launched. Make a plan, set up a bunch of 301 redirects for every page there. It will not preserve traffic, but it will help Google preserve the link authority. Make sure you set up canonical tags, especially if they're going to do web marketing. Canonical tags basically says, hey, I know this content, you can see through different various URLs, but we want you to consider this URL proper. Does it right? Just do it. All right, so we have gone through all the different aspects of SEO as it relates to WordPress currently. Please measure it whether you think your clients use it or not. Even if they won't use it, you will when they call you. Make sure it can be crawled by using these tips. Help your clients out by making sure they have a good amount of content that's unique on their site. And then make sure you set up things so that when the links come in, the website gets full credibility from them. And that's the beginning of an SEO campaign. Right? There's a lot more to do, but we've set our clients up for success with a better product. So one way to learn how to do SEO is Curious Ants. I'm giving you all complete unbridled access to all the processes that I use to do SEO for all of my clients with videos, written documentation at CuriousAnts.com. You can visit this link so I know you can. But if you're thinking about maybe offering this as additional service for additional income, or you just think, hey, you know what? I keep getting all these SEO questions. I don't know what to do. Some of the things we talk about setting up is all documented in Curious Ants. So please partake of all that we have to offer. But I ended 10 minutes later than I wanted to because I thought you might have some questions. So let's take some time for some questions. Awesome, Paul. So when you talk about public account, especially with the excerpts and not, for whatever reason, if there is a website that has gone both in the archive pages by category, et cetera, most of the times, though, when you look in Search Console, it ignores category page one, page two, and all the tags. Is that like a... So if you've used the excerpt or the more tag, there's not enough on those pages for Google to serve it. But the problem is sometimes, for various reasons, usually because of internal linking, when Google will serve up a category page with an entire blog post, and that's what we don't want. Maybe that blog post is third on the page. So when a person lands on that page, they're like, I asked for about this. They see the first blog post, and they're like, I'm on the wrong place, right? And it creates frustration. If we use the more tag, the excerpt, we make sure when people do a Google search, they land on the proper blog post rather than have to find it on the page. Cool? Yeah. Awesome, Paul's friend. Whose name I've already forgotten? Charles. We used to use the featured image. I just wanted to clarify there. Are you saying use the featured image specifically versus any other images or use an image versus no image? Okay. So a featured image in WordPress parlance is associated with the post. It's like sometimes it's encoded as the hero image on each page. You definitely want to make sure that's included. You can add additional pictures after that. You can choose whether or not to display that featured image on the post page. I don't care if you do or not. I just think that you need to have a featured image. And that featured image needs to be encoded so Google and Facebook and Twitter can all see that there is a featured image, a unique image associated with each post. Gotcha. So that's the key, is how many unique images you're exposed to? Encoded as a featured image. You go specifically? Yes. Because there are places where, especially for like a custom post type, you can turn off a featured image because clients never look on the bottom right there for that meta box. So I turn that off and I just put an image upload field in the main column there. Not every page needs to be SEO'd, but if this is a page that potentially could drive traffic from Google, you really, it's highly replicated. Okay, thank you. Yeah, back to the categories and tags. I don't need to ask you so many because it would pay you to get content. What's the suggested number of categories? We need to understand what the purpose of categories and tags are, right? Just get away from the idea that there's somehow more helpful to add tags or categories. I say every, if there are two or three posts that could be organized by a category or tag then create the category tag for them, but don't create them just for the sake of creating them, right? And then it has to do with how are you using them? Are you using them to help people navigate to learn more about different things or not? If you're not, then it's not helping anybody, right? But I like to think of categories as every post is part of a category and only one category. If I need a separate way to organize my content I might at that point consider tags and then I might allow posts to have several tags so those tags are going to be overlapping and the categories are going to be unique per post. I mean, the point for SEO is there's really no magic with tags. It's really all about helping your users find the content, but the SEO problem is created when people go a little tag crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And back. I think it just comes up in search. In other words, I just did metadata for a client, a whole bunch of images. We want to switch for marketing a little bit. How do I know if that metadata was successful? So, that's a... So, the answer is why they want to? And so that might be a longer answer we can talk about. I would... I always measure in my contracts for SEO I say I will not measure rank for you. Full stop. Find some other fool on Fiverr if you want measuring rank. I measure traffic as it relates and results in conversions. So, if an SEO initiative is successful you will get more traffic from Google and if it's successful that traffic isn't just in the traffic it accomplishes the goal of the website, the conversion of tracking. So, just be careful about going into well, but it's not ranking. Well, things rank all the time but will never send a single customer. So, let's forget it but that's the downside of reporting rank. We start talking about stuff that maybe no one else ever thinks of that doesn't really bring us customers which is the whole point. So, we got to be really careful about vanity metrics like I rank number one, I have 10,000 impressions on Facebook aren't I? Who cares? Did you get any customers? Like isn't that the point? So, we just got to pivot the way we think to think about customer acquisition and not vanity metrics that make me pat myself on the back and rank is kind of one of those vanity metrics. Sorry. But I was talking about Nim into rank. I think this is for an interior designer. Sure. He wants lower business to another part of the country. Okay. I need to know people from that part of the country are starting to find their image. Great. Google Analytics will say, you can say there's traffic coming from Google in that part of the country and it is becoming customers. So, any effort that we're doing to improve that interior design website whether it's image optimization or content optimization with words should deliver more traffic from that area and that's the most consistent way to be able to measure the success on that. You can think about traffic as a way of averaging rank. We can theoretically rank for something no one searches for and we can rank really well for something that a ton of people or nobody is searching for and traffic is a way of averaging out rank. Thank you. Yeah. I have a general question about URLs and I'll be late with a couple of them. Let's say you have an article on a general site that's the deadline is, step on digs is completed. Okay. So, that slug would be step on a stack of digs is completed. So, with the URL to that site would you pick a, you know, my website.com slash NFL slash players step on digs is completed again or would you pick my site.com slash step on digs is completed again Okay. Okay. Right. Right. Right. Yes. Yes. So, you'll notice I didn't really talk about keywords in URLs because it's such a minor thing. Right. But the URLs are still important to consider. The, I was about to answer the question. I got, I got into distracting my, I distracted myself in my own brain. Oh, I just totally got, right now. And I'll, I'll take a cup of coffee and I'll help. But yeah. All right. One more question. Yeah. So, I have a client who wanted to, you know, right, but be on the first page of Google search. So, even if I follow all the steps of SEO, it'll still take some time. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, number one, rank doesn't exist. Right. Rank doesn't exist. So, you will do yourself a justice to make sure your client understands that your rank doesn't exist. Right. You will search for it from your computer with your search history and your Gmail account. And that will have totally different results than he, than me, than her. Everybody's search results personalized. So, there's no such thing as I rank number one. Right. Two, he can think of something for which he wants to rank, but that doesn't mean anybody else is searching for it. So, that doesn't necessarily bring him into customers. All right. So, we've got to be really careful about that. But, I always tell clients, SEO is slow. Three to six months before we see the return on the investment. That's reality. You want to go fast, you got to pay. That's what paid search is for. Right. This is slow. Now, this is a slow, this is an investment because three to six months, we're building and we keep building and that's going to last forever. You turn off your paid search, all it's all gone. Right. So, that's the advantage and disadvantage of paid versus organic. You've got the time and the ability to invest, it's going to pay off. But you've got to have the long view. This is not, if you right now did all this stuff on your website, you're beginning. Right. It's still three to six months before SEO really takes a hold. And we just need to set that expectation for clients and get them away from thinking about ranking, missing out on real opportunities. Cool. I'm going to be around all day and I got nowhere to go to for dinner tonight. So, catch me up, take me to a wings place. I don't care. I look forward to talking with you. Thank you all for joining me today.