 Welcome back. The World Igbo Congress has rejected the security outfit, codenamed Ibubeagu, which was recently set up by governors of the southeast region. The group instead advised governors of the region to support the eastern security network ESN so it can become a strong security outfit for the Igbo ethnic group. They were also encouraged to refuse to be tools in the hands of the fully ethnic group who have vowed to conquer Nigeria. Now joining us to discuss this is Uche Okoku, the secretary-general of Hanezen Dibo and Obonna Oke, a politician. Good evening to you, gentlemen. Many thanks for joining us. Let me start with you, Mr. Obonna Oke. Looking at what happened not too long ago with the formation of Ibubeagu just last weekend, a lot of people from different angles have said that it was a hasty conclusion by the southeast governor. What is your take, rather concerning that you think it was hastily done in the wake of the Igbo Congress asking them to boost the eastern security network rather? Let me thank you for the opportunity. First, I'm quite aware that there are widespread concerns across the country as a result of greening security and greening to among the people to have alternatives when it comes to security protection. So the Ibubeagu thing, which is like a multi-cruel response in the northwest, and the security area in the north, all point in one direction. But I think of what is possible to be safe. And also the fact that many of us living in this country who are scared of the unknown want the best of security arrangements that will never come to us. All right. But do you think right now that it is what is needed right now? Because the Ipob and the ESN, they are saying that the governors are planning on compiling their names and that they are going to make the southeast heart if their way is not really the way at the end of the day? I think that we have been talking about non-state actors trying to model their way into the way we believe and operate in Nigeria. And I believe that the response by the southeast governors, what do you mean? They cannot sit down and fold their hands and allow the issue of security, particularly at a time that it wouldn't at the level of security. People are talking about devolution of power. For some persons, non-state actors to take control of security related issues. No, that shouldn't happen. So we should be full of place for southeast governors to take in what I consider pre-emptive position and also engender confidence amongst the people of the southeast. The support that Hanel did, for example, is throwing behind what the governors are doing at this time. So just clearly that we need to build on our security. Here we are, we are a group of persons, of course the police are accusing Ipob of responsibility in the Moponbe. We have seen police stations attack. We have seen people put at risk by non-state actors. And so we cannot. We cannot. I believe that if we genuinely want to talk about security in this country, then we should be talking about the system which includes the security agencies and which needs the support of locals. And I think that's the background behind the Boogalago. All right, thank you. Let's bring in Mr. Okuko into this conversation right now. You have had the position of the World Ibo Congress and specifically they are saying that the southeast governor should rather incorporate the ESN, which is not legal, by the way. So what is the particular position concerning that? Thank you very much. First, let me correct an impression. I'm the Deputy President General for an ESN Ibo. I was the Secretary General of the Organization from January 2017 to January 2021. On January 9, 2021, I was elected Deputy President General. All right, well, no heads up. Yeah, go ahead sir. My position is in this way. First, the governors are not speaking for the Orhanese because Orhanese speaks for the entire Ibo's. And the governor clearly said they were speaking for the part of the Orhanese consequence, which they said is the southeast. There are Ibo's in states outside the southeast river states, Delta, Awaibom, and those states. So they are not speaking for Orhanese. Two, I vehemently oppose. I vehemently oppose. I repeat it for the third time, I vehemently oppose. Anything that will put hands and ammunition, instruments of violence in the hands of untrained persons, whether you call them Ibo Tokuni, Yoruba Land, or you call them Ipob, Isman, the security network, or you call them Ibo Bagu or whatever you call them. I will never support the handling of civilians who are not trained and who don't understand the rules of engagement. Nigerians will regret it in the future. They will turn out to become local militias and name the people. What the Nigerians need today is to increase the number of policemen, recruit more police, more civil defense, more DSS, train them, arm them, and ensure they obey the rules of engagement. I don't support I mean civilians. Alright, since the Orhanese does not support Ibo Bagu, and of course the ESN or other civilians bearing arms, there's been a space of insecurity in the southeastern part of the country. We are all aware of what has happened in Imo's data just recently. So just what would you prefer as the immediate solutions to all of these security challenges in the immediacy with Devlin, the South East? I support collaboration between the space and the community. To the extent of intelligence gathering, intelligence gathering, and they're reporting person over that intelligence with security agencies. That is the extent to which I can support a collaboration, but I can never support I mean civilians because you cannot control them. You cannot determine what they will do with arms. Alright, let's bring all the guests into this conversation. You have heard the position of Mr. Okuku. He says it's not in the best interest of the southeastern state of, or even Nigeria to give arms to civilians who are not really trained to handle all of these issues of pockets of security that just be Devlin, the nation, and of course indeed the southeastern. What would you really advise in the immediacy? How do we begin to, you know, leap this issue of security in the board because it is ever increasing by the day in the southeast? Hello, can you hear me? Alright, we'll take a quick break. We'll go back and talk some more. Stay with us. Welcome back to Plus Politics. Let's talk now to a one-on-one care politician. Uche Okuku, of the Ohadesa and Igbo, is against giving arms to civilians who are not ordinarily trained to handle that. So, with all the growing insecurity in the southeast, in the immediacy now, what would you prefer as solutions? My board, the biggest problem facing this country is we take decisions and tend to implement decisions without a deep base for this. We must distinguish between planned criminality and spontaneous reaction. If a people gather and then break up prison, a people gather and bomb police stations, that is a criminal act. It is because the state has failed to investigate crime, arrest the cops, please, and put them on trial. That is why people are good enough to commit crime. It is beyond the issue of breaking police stations and prisons and so on. You see, people are beheaded, people are raped, people are maimed, Arabs are ravaging everywhere. The state must be prepared. The first duty of the state is to protect lives and property. They must take all practical steps to ensure that they develop capacity to protect lives and property. It is because there is a crime somewhere, or the violation of the law somewhere. You will now harm civilians, which means as it increases, you will continue to harm civilians and all civilians will possess arms and they will abuse it. This state will report it to Somalia where you don't know who you are talking to. Everybody is a militia holding arms. And the arms will be used against the state and the state actors, and that is my fear. All right, let me bring you back now, Mr. Ocho. Let me just read out something to you by the WIC over the weekend. They said that the Southeast Governors need to revitalize their justice department and begin to prosecute violators of the open grazing law by enforcing the laws in their book. It will help in checking the Marauding Fulani Hurtzman creating a stereotype security outfit now is no longer a priority than helping in strengthening the existing ESN. So specifically, do you think that anti-open grazing would be the issue to solve it, all of the Marauding Fulani Hurtzman attack in the Southeast? I have spoken in the past on grazing. I have advocated that the state must intervene to ensure that the Fulani Hurtzman or other Hurtzmen, not let us read the Fulani. Of course, you saw when cattle entered cows, entered Wulusio and cows house, the owner of those cows were not the Fulani. They were the Yoruba man. The Yoruba man had those cows, but he got the Fulani to rear them. So we most importantly investigate and go beyond the Fulani Hurtzmen that you don't have rights. And I say it, whether the Fulani Hurtzmen, whether ESM, whether the Yoruba group, nobody has the right to possess illegal weapons. And that is my fear. And I have said in the past that this case should come together and provide grazing grants for cattle breeders. In recent times, the cattle breeders are beyond the Fulani. If you have cattle breeders in Yoruba, you have Yoruba cattle. If the state provides the facilities for them, the cattle should stop roaming this place. And there will be, there will be no problems between the cattle breeders and the farmers. All right, so Mr. Oku, just to finalize your thoughts right now on this particular issue, what should be done with the ESM and in your position, is it that the Southeast Governors are wrong completely to have indeed talked about forging common fronts to end insecurity in their terrain? Well, I have said, I am not supporting ESM. I am not supporting the Yoruba group. I have told you, if you don't, you are not careful. There will be a breakdown of land order in the East and it will be between the ESM and the Yoruba group. You know, when you stare into the void, the void will consume you. There was no details for this, no backing it. No rules of engagement, no training. Vote for the ESM and the Yoruba group, so we have to be very careful. All right, thank you for your thoughts. Let's get to your final thoughts on this matter. Mr. Oku, there is like a battle of jaw-jaw between the Southeast Governors, the ESM and the IPOP. Just how do we begin to make sure that we bring everybody to a common front and ensure that at the end of the day the Southeast is completely secure? I think that we have been talking about the devolution of our country and increasingly talking about community policing. Now, the idea of community policing simply suggests that people will be exposed to training. Now, I think that what the Governors of the Southeast are doing is acknowledging that there is a need, a strong need to set up a complemented security apparatus that will work hand in hand with the existing security agencies. Now, the issue of training and all that will eventually be worked out. So, there is no way we can say at this point that guns will be placed in the hands of persons who are incompetent. But, we know that even persons who are not able to collaborate with the body and provide information, they may not. This gun with the persons that Mr. Oku is afraid of may not, may not. The Governors have said that the issue of training and all that, they are in your time, will be something that they will consider. But, perhaps the other goes by which the Vovago is becoming useful in managing the community security is a challenge. Now, I think we should be forward going in this context sometimes we are claiming that security is not sufficient and we are trying. Now, girls are beginning to say let's think a little outside the box. Let's give some perspective. But does it worry you that not much was done in terms of a legal framework before the announcement of the Ibube Ago? Okay, I believe that there is enough to bring people around to speak. What has come about an idea? Now, how this idea will work definitely will be worked out by majestic order. Now, the Governors, who bear the brunt of maintaining lower and higher industry believe that there is a need. They don't need that. To get some persons to support on their efforts that are related to security matters. And I believe too that they have efforts working with them. And that these matters have been talked to. But what should happen in my view is that we live in an era when technology must be deployed. We live in an era where we will not be equal to the idea of consultation. And that when all of these are put together and taken together that we can do something. All right, thank you so much for showing your comments. The police force which may operate within this day. Thank you so much. You did, Mr. Okay. All right, we have to go on this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the issue of Ibube Ago and of course the ESN with us on plus politics. We'll take a short break and when we return I'll be giving you my take. Stay with us. Well now that Issa Pantami has renounced his extremist ideology he should do what is right and needful. If he truly wants to make up for his past he should continue the work of engaging and radicalizing young jihadists not handling national affairs. Then for Ibube Ago, what the things on ground before the formation of Ibube Ago is there an illegal backing to Ibube Ago the eastern security network that was formed we all agree that it is illegal and cannot take charge of the security space in that area. There is nothing on ground in the southeast to support Ibube Ago so it is quite unfortunate it's just like putting the cart before the horse. And that's plus politics. I am Justin Cardone. We return again 7 p.m. tomorrow. Bye for now.