 Get right ahead. We're starting a little bit early a minute early and we have time for introductions. I'm going to introduce myself I am Guillermo Rouch the CEO and founder of Vercel The company behind Next.js. I think it's interesting that I'm here today because we provide a serverless deployment platform for front-end applications And I think it's funny that You know that behind serverless there's always servers So it's proper that I'm here being surrounded by the greatest minds in the Kubernetes world the folks that are creating the foundational layers of the Cloud the basic infrastructure on top of which we create the most exciting and the most developer friendly platforms in the world So I want to go right ahead and help these folks introduce themselves. Please go ahead My name is Tom Anvil My name is Tom I lead the engineering team for cast and by Veeam where we do data protection and application mobility for Kubernetes applications I'm really excited to share my experience here today So as a startup we found in 2017 and we were relatively early in the Kubernetes life cycle And when we started in fact, I would say that stateful applications were You know very foreign to Kubernetes, right? It's mostly a stateless. Sorry stateful were foreign and it was mostly a stateful Stateless platform So I'm excited to share my experience coming from a very small startup in the space and eventually growing to Go on going through the growth motions and becoming Successfully acquired by by Veeam our new parent company And I hope that's helpful for all of you Hi, I'm Kelsey Hightower. I'm currently learning Kubernetes. So please be kind And I advise a lot of the companies that are going from Community to customer and so hopefully we can share a little of that insight today Thank you. Okay, Kelsey. This is a I'm Shen Liang I'm one of the co-founders and CEO of a corn labs We have a we have exhibit booth out there were a new company and earlier I started a company called Rancher labs and they have a business booth here as well. So check us out Hi, I'm Liz Rice. I am chief open source officer at a company called ISO valent which was the original creator of the Sillian project and We donated Sillian to the CNCF and we get a lot of questions about well, how does the business model work? Why did you contribute your project? How can we also be successful in the cloud native ecosystem and I hope that I'll be able to share a little bit of that with you today? Perfect and we have that experience Ourselves as well because we built next. Yes, which is open source I like to call it the Kubernetes of the front in the world It builds on top of react and we built a platform on top That's cloud native and it's a business on top of the open source project So Kelsey has been an advisor to our company and this is a topic that I'm really passionate about so if folks want to find me after the session and Ask me, you know, what are what are some of the best practices of building this kind of business? I can help elaborate further So without further ado, I think when I first got started using Kubernetes many years ago I think part of what drove this excitement was there's an open standard There's that there's something that folks are converging around Everything is open source. I can run a database on top of it. I can run my workers on top of it I can run my servers on top of it But over time folks have also started to realize that managing all of that responsibility is tricky You have to run a business, right? So where does open source start and end? How do we help companies get more efficient with their Kubernetes use and what are some of your thoughts? I think One of the things that you need to do if you're building a business on open source is Figure out what the value you add as a business, you know The value that you're creating you've given away the software that the software is not the thing that you're selling per se You might have some other features some enterprise features or it might be support or it might be kind of expertise It might be training there could be all sorts of ways that you're adding value But you kind of have to be realistic about thinking What will people pay money for? If we give the software away you have to have that in mind when you're building a business, would you agree? I mean, yeah, absolutely. You know, I I learned very early on when I was doing a Company a long time ago open source company called cloud cloud.com and I asked the great Jim Whitehurst at the time he he was like pretty new in his Career at red hat and I always I was just quite surprised how red hat could build such a big business You know open source business and and I remember at the time he he told me something I still remember today He's I don't think of us as a support business We people really buy red hat because that's the only place they can get certified With you know, these these important applications like oracle and sap then I realized wow This is this is this is very very different from from from what I was what I had in mind and I think that more than anything else influenced Everything I've done in terms of you know creating businesses from open source technology ever since you just got to have something That you do to supply unique value to customers beyond open source Um working with a lot of startups if you've been in the product space and software VCs used to say this and they some still say this you got to stay away from the pro services because it doesn't scale And so a lot of companies try to go with this product led approach of your product is really strong Then you're fine, especially in the world where there are no service providers to compete with You download the product and the first thing you need is support or that could be the way you do it But these days is very different if you come up with a successful open source project You've done a lot of the hard work in finding product market fit You can tell by some of those github stars and those conference talks And so you've cleared the path that this idea is worth implementing We have the perfect free trial and it works But the problem is you're competing With service providers. Sometimes we call them cloud providers But that isn't the only option the very first time I seen the big shift In the business model of open source a big one recently um I think for sale is a great example if you use next j s For sales very clear about what you should pay for It's one thing to build a website But the whole point is to get it in front of people to use So it's very clear what the uplift is from there But the other one that I want you to hold in your minds is what happened with let's encrypt It's probably the first open source project. I've ever interacted with that I've never downloaded on my own machine before It comes out and it challenges this industry that was charging people Hundreds of dollars for s a cell certificate Not only did they come up with a protocol to automate the renewal process They immediately gave you something in many ways to pay for You can just use it right away and the adoption curve is gone So there was no way that anyone else could beat them to the service piece No matter what anyone says this still is service business So you got to get people something to pay for and I believe it is still service You just want them to do it with your protocol Yeah, I think that's a great point and we get a lot of questions kind of on product led growth versus sales led growth You know my opinion for a successful large company, you probably need both And we've seen that otherwise large companies wouldn't be investing massively into sales teams and only focus on product led growth I would say anecdotally for us our kind of magic moment was when we hired a great sales team you know, I think we were a team of engineers and during background, right and We're very focused on product led growth and it turned out that our secret sauce was really Hiring a good sales team. So it's kind of a mix But yeah, you know the space is pretty There's a lot of components in the space if you look at the scene sales landscape There's so many projects and so it's very hard to differentiate yourself And I think when you think of what customer environments look like You really want to understand their infrastructure and how they're they're adopting and using open source And as as Liz said, I think the value out on top That's really important because they are getting a lot of value just from these existing projects and infrastructure So what really figuring out what your strategy on top of that is kind of the important part Can I add I want to add context to the sales team I've worked at open source companies when they're early and they try to hire a vp of sales too early And it's hard the best sales reps bring a rolodex They know what these customers have because they sold it to them And when they join this new company, they have this level of insight into what they sold to them before They know who the top level team is and they know who has hands on the keyboard So they know who to talk to but the most important component to that you got to give them something to sell So when the narrative is clear When the story is clear that sales rep can say oh Those are all the gaps in the previous product I know what i'm selling now and I know who to sell it to and I think you got to have that to make sure that If you're going to bring in a sales team, they have something to do Yeah, I think that dovetails really well into this question of differentiation. What do you bring to the table? What works? What doesn't work when you're building a business in in business space you called out People come to us because we're the experts in xjs. We're the experts in react and we provide a clear service on top of that That provides some scalability benefits some collaboration benefits some workflow benefits Workflow benefits So what are things that you would recommend? This emerging businesses do you mentioned for example? Not putting the card before the hoarder not trying to start selling because before you have a product that actually works What are things that you would recommend these businesses do? No, I'll I'll stop then. I mean, I actually have a honestly a slightly Different different opinion. You know these days. It's actually quite Fashionable didn't used to be like this like a lot of the open source companies are worried about You know how to how to keep something back? I mean, I think open core now is a positive has positive connotation now versus negative and You know agpl or these these things are back because it's sort of okay to be hostile to To to cloud providers because they're they're the evil guys, but I I I think I think I I don't know I I I still think it's it's a lot of these. I mean I look at a lot of startups and they're kind of doing this I mean they you know, you look at their github project has like 200 stars and you know, really nobody even cares What they're doing? I I feel like Companies, um, I mean you look at you know companies who successful companies who had to do stuff like this They're like mongo db's and the last day. I mean they were already really a public They were already a public company before they got into you know trouble with amazon So so it's it just feel like you know, this is this is sort of a rich man's problem You know don't don't try to do it too early before you're I think what you're going out is You got to go beyond github stars You don't just browse github, you know get content with just stars. There has to be more substance beyond that But I think it's a really great point that that kind of community engagement You know if you're going to build on open source, you've got to have something that people care about And then if you're the company that has the expertise You know, let's say a financial institution wants to use what you're doing a they want somebody on the phone when something goes wrong And b they probably have enterprise requirements that You know your fan base your community don't necessarily care about but the people Who want to pay money have specific requirements and they need experts to implement those requirements. So I think having A product or a project rather that a community can really fall in love with but knowing that Your company is where the experts are Is a really great foundation and it also enables you to have those conversations about Well, what are the paid for features that You know, I picked financial institution because obviously they're people who typically have money But whatever verticals or a pharmaceutical or media or whatever they're going to have some specific requirements And they want to talk to you about those requirements I love that I would add having a point of view Right, so folks come to you for your expertise In your point of view in the market, you could be going after observability You know, it seems like a crowded market But if you bring a novel point of view and address a big pain You have that the other thing that you mentioned that I love is enterprises love Optionality and risk mitigation. So being open source first is great for that You know, you if we do a good job with next.js and and serving it to a global audience great If we don't you take your next.js workload somewhere else and that's what's kind of the fire behind this engine Yeah, you know, I think we're kind of in a different market a little bit here where the the requirements are changing pretty significantly But you know what we'll let you raise funding in the past has definitely changed And I think just having pure, you know, github stars, for example, was probably sufficient When we started 21 Yeah Probably yeah And now now there's a lot more focus on actually the revenue side of things And so it's important to try to figure out how to map a little bit that map to that a little bit sooner I don't think you have to actually be different because that's not the only way people choose to do business if you think about Ryan Reynolds if you're ever seeing some of his movies, but this actor gets into the mobile phone service business The most commoditized thing in the world And this person created a relationship With his audience base. I mean no one thought of doing anything close to this Maybe the CEO of t-mobile at the time with his uncarrier campaign So in the sea of commodity because in open source you start as a commodity Which is really interesting place to begin So ryan riddles getting into the mobile business and he makes these epic commercials They're not the best commercials on purpose But you watch them anyway And I remember my daughter telling me she's like hey, we signed up for this new service I actually left mid-mobile to another carrier and she said I can hear ryan Reynolds in my head Apologizing for the lack of quality service And I knew that he had did something super special There's an old saying about business that most people do business with people they like and trust That creates a whole new definition of loyalty that even if a competitor comes out I will just wait red hat may not always be in the forefront of technology But I'll wait until they turn that software into an rpm and I'll use it then So I think there's this other element and I see it and you're one of those founders that is out there Metro Hashimoto is one of those founders that was out there and I guarantee you a lot of you all became customers After meeting those people who work on the project and then you became loyal to that project And many times a lot of this stuff is becoming parts of our identities I met a guy today and I never thought I would see it happen. He had a kubernetes tattoo on his arm That ain't coming off. Where are you raise your hand? And so I think now we have to appeal and this gets into the marketing side You're actually now talking directly to the customer and you can't just hide behind the product and hope marketing will take you there You actually have to jump out and do that same technique. I love this I'm picturing myself as ryan Reynolds now Thank you But I when you were saying that about building a brand and building that authentic connection with the community I immediately thought hashi before he mentioned them because they they are in crowded spaces, you know, you you have vault but there are other vaults You have terraform. There are other infrastructure code solutions But there's only one That speaks to me the way that they speak to me with their brand With their the way that I think about their technical solutions The way I think the transparency of the company and so on. So I think that's a that's an excellent point You mentioned marketing. So How do you what are best practices around that? Like, how do you market? How do you how do you produce consistent signal with that audience? in ways that scale are authentic and help build a business I think this is where This is where I think engineers always get it wrong. You have a successful technical product You're popular lots of people are talking about it You're getting free people talking about it at meetups and conferences and you think you've solved it You think you're ready now To go from tech to product and it's a very different thing So I think the biggest challenge is that as an engineer You are still required to do the business part When you get in a room for the executives that are paying for 500 other products Yours isn't as important as you think it's one of 500 Actually, I don't even have time to talk to you about it. Can you just sell through the amazon marketplace? So I can pay for it once and move on So if you're going to be in front of an executive you got to learn I think engineers are really good at the hello world stuff Right, you get next to your peer. You say, hey, I want to show you my project and I get excited But now you get to turn to an executive and say Hello revenue slightly different conversation And a lot of people can't make that pivot and so yes now you're talking to a customer that says We have learned not to trust marketing No one trusts the blog posts because it's too positive It doesn't have the actual day two and day three things you're going to run into So who do we turn to? We turn to the community We turn to the person that doesn't work at that company and we want their authentic opinion And when that founder or those maintainers can establish that trust Then I will listen to you So I think that pivot is what all of those technical people end up having to make and to be honest Some of y'all are just getting lucky Some of these companies are literally just getting lucky. They actually do not know how to do this because they can't repeat it You come up with a product. Maybe the logo is nice But it turns out your marketing department is the community They actually do the heavy lifting for you. They start the meet-ups They tell the story better than anyone that works at your company does And you confuse that for having a great marketing strategy. You don't have a marketing strategy You're lucky and when that community shows up, you better figure out a way to appreciate them And never get confused of where that growth engine is coming from Because when they leave you will find out just how naked you are when the tide goes down Yeah, completely agree and um I think another thing that engineers tend to get wrong is they tend to talk about the solution first So, um, you know, I've written this great thing and look at what it does Which is great for a certain Uh group of people But at some point you have to start saying what the problems that I solve And you you still have to do that in an authentic way and yeah, ideally your community will Talk about the problems that they've solved with your solution But I think particularly for those of us who come from an engineering background It's so easy to kind of Have that conversation the wrong way around and you have to think about Why should anybody care about this solution? And if all you're talking about is features They they don't necessarily care They have to identify with the problem that it solves first before they care about what it does to solve those problems You have to remind people Of what the problem was there are a lot of people who are okay brute forcing the current part of their stack They've forgotten the problem so much that they just brute force it If you remember any of the talks that I was doing in the early days of kubernetes I was always careful to remind people here's what your puppet setup looks like You meet people where they are and then you show them what's next I love that I always remind our teams that we're constantly reintroducing ourselves I think folks think that there is this global context that everyone remembers every brand every one of those 500 vendors I think you have to like ignite a little bit of that Context switch and give them a piece to hold on to so that folks can remember who you are The other thing that I love is The community becomes part of your marketing team Legitimately and you have to invest and reward that so it reminded me a couple conferences ago It's next day as conf a member of our community who at the time didn't have a ton of followers Who's just a very smart motivated individual? He did a better job than our team at summarizing what we launched. He created this beautiful tweet store. I'm saying Here's what versell launched So what I did right after is I took his tweet and I pinned it to my profile How did I do that twitter used to have a bug where you could pin someone else's tweets But to me that was the reward of Our community is doing such a great job. Let's reward them. Let's motivate them. Let's give them resources To do more in the future. So I totally agree with those points and I think I wish I had this advice when we were going through the process You know, we felt into all these traps Um, I think when we were first kind of getting started and investing a lot in these conferences and talking to people We had to reintroduce ourselves every time and we would only go into these the features specifically We talked about we can do this, you know back up fast for anyone else to do all these features around using volumes and things Um, but most conversations were oh, what do you do? You know, and I think our material and our discussions Really were a lot more impactful when we simplified and focused and as an engineer You know, I see a lot of people fall in this trap even on the engineering side and for me I like to try to map Our failures on other sides to the marketing side of the business side and really focusing on simplicity was really important for us What do you do? That's a perennial question like hacker news threads You always see like folks are saying they get really frustrated. I go. I went to your homepage I still don't know what you do. So I love that you called it out. What do you do? You have to keep working on that. What do you do? What do you do? What do you do and and and make it clear and in crisp? um, so moving forward like leap frog in um There are a lot of changes happening to the ecosystem The best practices are always shifting What are some of the opportunities that you all see that are gaps? Maybe because the right open source technology is not there the right managed solution is not there What are gaps in the ecosystem that become opportunities for this new businesses and startups? You know one thing we see a lot with our customers I think is there's a lot of people have really Chosen every single permutation of every cloud native project you can possibly imagine And I think having the ability to still integrate with that type of infrastructure when we sell to these customers is really important Like I said making it as simple as possible But still recognizing the fact that when you deal with these customers, especially people who are hitting web scale type deployments Making sure that you can still Understand if you'll even work in their environment making it easy for your your sese and yourself folks to go and and qualify customers is really important Yeah, I mean there's a phrase and I use it all the time. It's easy to predict the future when you're working on it All the products that you see especially like managed services, they're like 80 solutions. Why? Mainly because cloud providers don't have permission to be super opinionated Because you cannot get mass adoption of something That is perfect. It's only going to be perfect for a fraction of the customer base And so what happens is and I think what the role is is that those gray areas is where the opportunity is That opportunity can evaporate. So you got to pay attention consistently But when these things launch and you find when they hit that 80 percent That's when you come in And when you come in you fill that gray area with an opinionated approach Because at that point people don't want another generic thing because you even commoditize yourself even further So when you say hey app engine is great And you can definitely build a static site on it But then you can go get opinionated and it says this is how You actually do it and we're going to serialize that idea into the actual framework. It's risky Because if no one agrees then you lose but if people agree Then you actually have a very unique market I can think about volt as a good example or terraform as a great example Every cloud provider has a native configuration management thing for their cloud But terraform and hashi corp come with this very opinionated view on how it should work HCL module systems and plug-ins and it fills this gray area so much That even some cloud providers have backed away from even managing their own system In favor of the one that is now the universal standard So find the gray areas and there is going to be a market of people that are frustrated with the limitations of that And that's your solution space Yeah, you know, I like you know, I like to add something here I agree with everything that everyone said but you know, I get asked a lot like like Where do you get the idea? What are the ideas? Which is what was asked and I mean really the answer to that is for me is always The the ideas are really diamond doesn't they're out there everywhere But the question is you know, how do you ever get an opportunity to exploit it and and really the Pretty much the only way There are a couple ways to get there But the most common way I've seen is folks just Just go an extra mile do whatever they're doing really well Then inevitably you're getting to constraints about your current product or the current organization or you're in a big company And and and big companies somehow can't fund or can't can reorient toward this area Then then then you figure out. Okay. This this does make sense and that motivates you to create a new open source project Or then create a new company, right? So another thing that I've seen I've experienced myself repeatedly is Because of because technology is evolving so quickly and a lot of times it's hard to like go go up against You know an amazon try to recreate their cloud or go up against microsoft try to recreate their os or But but but but then what what happens is a lot of the users a lot of the smart users They just realize, you know, I'm not only I'm not really using all of it anyway So so a lot of the inside I find even though it's not a product You work down personally, but it's a product you press you're intimately used and and then then you gain insight And and and and that opens a whole lot of doors But but but in two both of these cases it is it is the inside is really based on depth And and and expertise right and and there's just no substitute for that I have been involved in my fair share of businesses that had really Lovely technical ideas, but were a disaster from a business point of view because I think we were creating nice technology rather than really Making sure that it was a problem that it was a pain point that it was something people would pay for People don't pay for like nice to have they they have you have to You know save the money solve a real problem make something significantly faster, you know, we have a whole sponsor showcase floor full of people who do that who have identified ways of Solving pain points, but I think that was something that was quite a hard lesson for me that yeah Just because it's a great technical idea does not mean that it's something people will pay for and that's what you need You need to have that conversation to work out That it is a pain point There's the other part too where they may not want to buy it from you Which is a hard pill to swallow if you the person that created the project the steward behind the project But they choose to give it to a another service provider Who either implements or runs the same service you've created? So that's the reality you're not guaranteed to win Just because you are the maintainer of the project And I think a lot of people are surprised by that That someone just out executes them not having any of the other things you have Other than an easier billing model or the ability to bundle what you do behind a larger project So keep in mind that this game is very complex I wanted to emphasize Kelsey's earlier insight that You need to bring an opinionated salute. You need to address that 20 percent There is a lot of value in trying to discover How significant that 20 percent is it happened to us in the early days I was obsessed with that idea of The instant deployment to the cloud But what really helped us succeed was narrowing down to the space of front end deployment as an engineer I love to generalize you could argue that before chad gbd Existed were paid to generalize and create abstractions And reusable utilities and functions And and what I realized is that the general compute the general cloud Service belongs to the cloud providers. It's very hard to compete on being the best general solution But when you bring that opinion and that specialization It's actually really easy to compete Because you look at the general thing and you're like, no, I want the best thing for this problem And it tends to be the more opinionated solution. So That's a pretty awesome insight Speaking of things that enterprises buy So what are your thoughts on security? Um disaster recovery. What are the what are the features that you would select as those Must-haves that could lead to business opportunities, especially since enterprises are so security sensitive Uh add active directory support You're gonna get your check easily from that one I would just say one maybe you didn't ask this question But the thing not to spend too much time on I see a lot of people make this mistake That that little dashboard with metrics on it Nobody want to log in and see that Some people have like a solution for logging and you have your engineers spend a whole year Creating this beautiful observability portal just for logs And the enterprise is like, dude, we have Girvana with thousands of dashboards for all of our products I do not want to log into your little app just to see metrics about logs Your first feature should be integrating With data dog or some other thing and spend your time doing something only your team can do So that's one of those things where I think people believe the enterprise wants a single pane of glass Because your marketing department copied that from Cisco's website That is not the thing people are typically looking for they're looking for something that feels the gray area They already have the general thing So you building more general things in your product instead of unique features that the other thing doesn't have So I would say I know you didn't ask that question, but do not specifically spend too much time It's good for demos, but it ain't going to sell you a bunch of licenses to your software integration Yeah, I know there's lots of things that enterprise definitely want here For me the the strategy we took I think was And again, you know when we released our product we with all the advice be embarrassed by your your mvp I was very embarrassed so please don't look at any demos of me giving you know Tell us our first product, but I think for on the enterprise side, you know We had success there because we really ended up getting a lot of rejections People were saying no to us all the time because but we in that process we figured out what people needed And I think I had a lot less intuition on what really made enterprise software successful Especially because for us, you know We're in this kind of convergence of view things where you have cloud native software open source software Really getting into enterprises and it's kind of a unique situation where you need these enterprise type features Authorization authentication is huge. I mean, you know, this is something you need very fine great permissions and the ability to specify all this stuff But for me it was really a learning lesson of you know Just talking to these enterprises understanding what they need because I had a very poor intuition On exactly what they needed until I just sat down with them and spent a lot of time Got a lot of rejections and ended up being more successful that way Yeah, just just real quickly, you know, there's there's a lot of open source projects that are very very popular They serve developers and stuff, but there's just no business around it You look at it and you know, nobody is going to pay any money for this and then there There are other popular projects like kubernetes that a lot of companies build successful business, right? But one thing I've seen is, uh, you know, some of the Projects or the project you know create if it's going to be more Appealing to to enterprise to pay money tend to have to play some sort of a mission critical role I mean, that's why you know active directories security backup restore ha tend to Certification flips, you know, those are sort of things that might be boring But but they're they're going to really pay the bills and that's going to build a billion dollar business Yeah in in the security space, there's uh a lot of kind of Standardized behaviors and things that are expected particularly from from enterprise security teams and That's the problem You know, you have to meet people where they are and if you're trying to build security solutions You can't necessarily take people away from The checkbox is that they have to continue to tick even if you've got something that you know is technically superior and solves it in a completely different way You've got to meet them with you know comply with their compliance checklists So security can be a really difficult space to innovate in In a way that still meets people's data, you know, you can have a great conversation where people go That's really clever. I love that idea We'll do that after we figure out how to do all that upgrades and cvs and you know Deal with our backlog of cve mitigations that we need to deal with so Meeting people where they are There's something that I think kubernetes did masterfully that we don't talk about from a business perspective No one really sold kubernetes and made money like here's this open source kubernetes. Call me for support. That didn't happen kubernetes left a ton of gray area And what you pay for is the integration that vmware has in the form of tanzu or gke in the form of google cloud's integration You pay for the integration work And some open source projects start to learn early on that ecosystem part Is critical because yes, it's hard to be that general thing But what happens when you're prometheus and every other provider in the world Adopts the prometheus protocol. This is not a guarantee for success But it's a guarantee to be invited to the table to have a discussion and sometimes success for a lot of these projects Let's be honest every one of these projects are not going to ipo So creating an ecosystem may be the best way to be a quieter By one of these people that now depend on this so open to limergy kubernetes Envoy all of these things recreate ecosystems Mainly because they're open and their apis are plentiful and they're not trying to hide everything behind the locks box Or a proprietary api so ecosystem is a very masterful way of definitely becoming to grow a new market That is hard to do so i'm not saying it's a general solution But go back and study the newer businesses that have been built around ecosystems And you can maybe be able to play this game for a long time In a nutshell we all have to integrate together and that will increase a collective chance of our success I think helsey also mentioned or sort of passed by the idea of managed services, which again, you know Operating systems. It's one thing to build a really great project It's a whole other thing to actually deploy it not just deploy it on day zero but keep deploying it day after day So managed systems is another huge Value add that a lot of businesses out there are are doing and building businesses on It's probably the most common open source model right now All right, I want to thank you all for attending a session and all our wonderful panels. I learned a lot today So please stay connected and reach reach out to us for more questions. Thank you. Thanks everyone