 and watching it and I'll know what I asked you when I have time. Sounds good. Ready to go? Okay, great. I wanted to open this up. Just talking about your background. I know you taught English many years and you know poetry and literature. And you told me in an email that you were a traditionalist. And so maybe you could explain it to me by that. My background in poetry. I became deaf at 10. So I was a good reader before that. I loved books. So my command of English was established. Went back to the same public school where I had gone to before I became sick. After six months, teachers knew me. I tried to help after classes, but I really read my way through. Anyway, coming from Italian family. And my father loved opera. He played the guitar and the flute. And he had gotten me singing Italian songs when I was three, four years old. Everybody said I had a wonderful voice. And Duff, father of that guitar, stopped playing the flute at home. I mean, no music left. I go to school. The books went read. When we had a literary school lesson, you had to read poems. Fascinated. That became my music. Substitute. Rhythm. And rhyme. And I worked with a dictionary all the time. So it came natural in time. When I was 15, I was 16, started to write poetry. And I was in high school. Again, followed my hearing friends to a hearing high school. To-pump-print and then to high school. Literary magazine. Everybody, mm-mm-mm, good, my father, good. Later to Gallaudet, I called. I mean, very active at Gallaudet. I wrote a lot of poems, prizes and signed letters. Later, got a job, teaching English in school for the deaf. Bernard Bragg was one of my students. The New York School for the Deaf of Fanwood. Oh, he fell in love with my way of signing. He was a natural, natural actor. We set up the drama club. That was successful. I never told him anything about acting. He was natural. But he didn't know how to read the play scripts. I told him, if you want to become an actor, you have to know how to read. So we worked, we're after school. Then he later on went to Gallaudet. I got my MA from NYU. Gallaudet asked me to come and teach. Again, I told Bragg at Gallaudet. Call us. We became old friends. Then he started to sign poems more and more and more. Graduated. I stayed at Gallaudet. 1966, National Theatre for the Deaf was established. I asked me to come teach history of theatre and classes in signing poetry for actors. Bragg was there as well. So we worked together. And I thought, oh, say, Miles. Run for it. We got together often, signed in poems. Thinking of parallel, parallel, the English, but ed, eh, yes, sir. Mime. Another person, very important person, my old friend who was with me at Gallaudet. Miles, a corn, old friend. He was with us in the summer school with the National Theatre for the Deaf. So we had a wonderful time. And until the first five years, often took poems on the tour. They would give a pie, a break, or maybe half an hour of poetry. Later on, they stopped out, but went for the first five years. Doc Miles may have wrote some of our poems, and they were used on the stage and carried around the world. Most were taken from books. Depending on audiences, sometimes they often went to his third one school. So, yes. Anyway, that's going on well. During the years I was at both Fanwood and Gallaudet, I taught English, literature, and drama. Actually, I tried with the cast, students, tried my best to follow the printed word, and make them learn to appreciate the beauty of English. Well, it's cool. Black, many, many others, my time at Gallaudet, we almost never, we never heard about yourself until Storky arrived in 1955. So, we were used on a combination of Stantard signs, Spanish spelling on mine, soil, dial, porpoise. We had a monthly literary society at Gallaudet that would give plays, stories, and signs and poetry recitals, and give awards for the best person for the year. Well, that was my involvement with poetry at that time. As the years passed, I got invited to many workshops. I brought Bragg here for six months in 1976, and he was our poet in residence. Made several ones for videotapes to have him here. He was great. Bragg is marvelous to see him sign, straight speed, harmless to be or not to be. You're the poet's legend. Oh, yeah. Some place that should be here in the vote. Oh, yes. If they don't have it, I have home copies. I can make them food. I've been making them. Oh, yes. Yes, mostly, mostly struck food. You use the word mechanical. Yes. Were anybody at that time trying to break away from the English and saying, can we come up with it and answer first? Did anybody think it was possible to sign that way? Aye, yes, sir. It was no. And I said, Stokey arrived. I was there in 1955. He was working on the dictionary first. Then by 1960 he came up with the term aye, yes, sir. So this is 1960. Of a reign from 1940 I was a student at Gallaudet until 1960. We never heard of aye, yes, sir. We were inventing things. Mime, son, mime. Fingerspelling. Did anybody try one person? Master Cohn. One night he popped up in my dorm room. He said, Bob, sit down. I want to show you something. You know, next Friday night we have a lit society meeting. In the poetry signing I'm going to sign the poem. The cyber walkie. I said, I think they will understand you. Watch, sit down and watch. Watch for my mouth again. Watch for my mouth again. I was mesmerized. Finished. I stood up. I said, my God. It's marvelous. Something out of this world. It makes much sense. But we still can connect it. And your creativity was terrific. That was the start. By the way, we tried to influence. Ah. He stood right Master Cohn. Yeah. Yeah. Just like nobody would not label their language. But I'm assuming that when you weren't talking about poetry or English with, you were signing with a telegram. Were you using English sign or were you, like your natural way of signing, later they labeled it ASL? That's your way of signing. You're so good. I like the fingers bother. That was your conversation. I remember my time at Gallaudet. I think we had a total of 300 students. So Gallaudet was very selective and chosen who could come in to prep the cast. And I reading skills. So you see many very little rats. And I stayed like that. And I believe one Storky conceived the time ASL. He was thinking of what we now call ASL. But faster today like modern life on the faster lane. The faster I can send myself sometime who faster evolved. And really you have in your question in 1980s here they had that poetry first of all, that's really the beginning. Oh yes. I remember we were even arguing about the term poetry. Poetry to me included sound. Sound. But then the group deaf poets. Many born deaf. Like whatever lens called I-Rhyme. Just use the word I-Music. I-Music stood up to me who had poetry. And I saw the changes in English American poetry. Oh sir through Shakespeare I had even early 20th century that was the new poetry. Walt Whitman and Free Voice. That was a great thing. They wanted to make poetry hard and clear. A sentimental focus on the main object. I could understand that even though I didn't really like some was great some. But I taught it both. Then Alan Gensburg pop-pop it was like Walt Whitman coming to N-T-I-D. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh the same. Yeah. I forgot the name of the other one Debate Generation I was Italian poetry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Favourite. I run I'm going to call my favourite now. Well before that I really liked Amy. Oh no no no. Emily Dickenson at the at the friends of the new poetry she's amazing her compression she takes so much from the few words arising new metaphors and and her layer of reading is very formal and structured and it's beautiful to follow someone who's worked really hard to get the work before but the images suckle really good but she was amazing so so and I think that Sam Abrams the person who Roger I.T. then Jim Cohen who's in mind coming over to here and I think that he arranged that meeting with the Cohen was one of his students and I was okay right away No No Fascinating. I thought it was great I have a famous poet come to take the time and especially to be with us he was at I.T. for the hearing students but us was great at NTIDS we impressed me maybe suck mind it I asked good questions one traditional poetry we gave him examples I want to see some of a new and when he talked about that poem hour and that image of the eyes and that part came up gave him an interpretation I understand Peter Cook was up himself he begins his own way of signing after that I I really for me what Cook and Dabby Randy Doe with the long poems is more like a Yassal story telling a Yassal poetry in pure form with the sword poems with past part gray ball collet on I can see that most of them important cause I'm wrong now return poems you lose the point sometimes yeah if you have a theme you have to keep that theme in mind and to understanding of the audience sometimes their emotions are lost sometimes yeah I think it was T.S. who said poetry can express itself really understanding yeah so many poems a new poetry even the old poetry some of the old poetry is hard to understand yeah yeah yeah evolving still ongoing process one thing to me when you talk about a deaf poetry you mean poetry created by the deaf person or can include a Yassal poetry that's already published it becomes a rested type well same as rock stars borrow songs from others hmm Rod was on Hammerstein to write songs for plays the actor learns the song and now on the stage the same thing you don't always have to write your own poems hmm it's important to keep poetry moving if you want to sign inspiration when a message or poetry is both strong and high music hmm we use both signs until it's signed by Brian yeah some people open it up to other things it stops being ASL it becomes more something different do you feel like you're using sign language or using yourself to only relate to deafness do you feel that way because you can't do that you have to you have to encourage appreciation of poetry before they really start to write or re-sign I think also going back to Greek times let's for example take for great poet we often had someone use up hmm no poetry became rhythmic hmm even the earlier than I decide in the Greek language is rhythmic they really epic poems hmm well later on hmm poetry really was a let at the beginning before prose so people loved it and they started have traveling singers called rap swords in the Greek it means a singer kept alive the poetry appreciation of poetry was wonderful when all the way through middle ages with friends through by doors somewhere along the line hmm sad to see that today the poetry we say is really rock music music your life your language can read it your language can be composed poetry is not equally with English that was my understanding yes I agree I agree the good way of explaining what happened yes agree that's bad poetry yes belongs to them dead generation hmm nope it was blood other deaf poets would pick it up you talk about teaching poetry and well every student like no I learned that through years 45 years of teaching I tried my best to throw being dramatic and I am acting whatever to try to present the message the meaning of the poem the feeling I'm like that some didn't I tried my best looking for when he wrote his book the medium is the message sad what teachers and people must do is let the student be the poem be the book that I'm involved so that's what's happening now with those deaf new poetry that's a lesson that's good they become at the body poetic and you don't translate the poetry one language spoken become so sometimes for me as an interpreter I don't create my own but I I then I perform it and it's very emotional sometimes I don't understand the point but I get it and then I feel like I experience more than just going like this so the people who created must feel that way too they're wearing poetry clothes right and the best actors, actresses do that out of body experience they become the character not realizing it's not myself anymore it's not a mechanical thing spontaneous boom that's what I try to do teaching poetry and little drama teaching plays that's very important try your best to write interesting poetry appreciation yes that's the problem avoid reading it I know I'm worried about literacy I'm worried about Adam don't understand if it's more interesting than anything you're doing there's a world waiting for us come on what are you going to do they need one people who can light a spark half of it to me half of it to brag half of it to some of my best students they pours on another pass it on two or three two or three I should have gone two more but I was writing two books right top Americans I was setting up two new courses in top studies so doing research what else oh I was one of three assistant editors for the Gallaudet encyclopedias five years of work that was during that period so I sort of got to more but and in the summer I went a few times done for what then the same young boy now he's trying that for him well I finished so what my school did the new poetry they packed what men and others had so I thought that is coming same with the sign that first time I didn't agree but then later on I saw how it's really the the important thing enough to be understood fully but still we can appreciate it it's like painting of Picasso Daly sculptors of Henry Moore time we don't understand but we can appreciate it same thing that feeling yes like I was so used to traditional sign and now it's about 1980 that's the time but at yourself at yourself begins to atom bomb really and I wish I had written it not written but they composed that in poetry form but connected with protest but then they took about five hours things they should have thrown interesting political issues and that's what the beats and erasement done even if I chose to start using like James Boyd was interesting when he was there we asked him to read his poems I said in the sense I told him oh yes, I feel comfortable now I know I would read about I was a poet I had a long fellow had to write poetry smoking a pipe Robert Burns had to go horseback riding you can't see poetry or the poet Emerson needed a rotten apple in his desk who knows how many others they had their cool works not all but some my wife and I love dogs we always had them all together seven and hour time often working the dog so I began thinking of a poem I started before at home at the desk with the pipe I used to smoke before not heavy but I liked smoke like James Boyd but with the dog now working fresh began to come words metaphors go home something like that like that 87 yes, plague came oh yeah, that's right he wasn't as a poet run yeah, else yeah you have a dog typed out into Boston yeah I only whispered the clearer that was the old way of typing you can't do it by the dog I can see that that's very important to my clarity on videotape you can stop pause go slow motion and see better yeah no, interesting how some write for themselves I cook what people think negative for myself some like or some don't they would may entice when I feel the same way fans was interested she was asked asked us to write or chase a poetry writing but I some I couldn't get not clear on the videotape that's good idea I was an interpreter for that he said he had the words all that if I notice something it's like it doesn't flow what do you mean well when I read it it's a good idea so we collaborate but it was interesting we wanted to hear it now Peter and Kenny if you were to I translate his work out of any voices not much I was wondering that's why I think it's wise to do that I say is there help doesn't have to say look around and jump see this jump with his words not many words really he just wants to teach the audience to understand the poem as they go along beginning the poem with more words then by the end the audience understands that's a good idea and Ella said I do it for death people if the interpreter doesn't get the words right or whatever my job not your job doesn't matter it's interesting attitudes about poetry and interpreters and the audience do they want to know oh yes very important I can read and play before you see it on the stage that helps a lot that's why teaching is easy they already have the book they already have the poem the story teaching reinforces that students my students what do they like would often say later on with me them again story or poem yourself you would always switch English for praise for teaching oh yes that's a good question I feel like their buddy category not story telling very popular and deaf world from way back they had cubs for the deaf no TV no cubs for movies cubs for the deaf always for Friday, Saturday nights they would always have business meeting now oh story telling poems yes often performed in Washington they say they soften on second oldest literary you fill it out for you still but not strong but still Washington second so go ask me to go myself will go sometime finish early people you want to add hmm poem or story and count that I told you they're monthly literary meetings they were not meetings they were shows two hours mostly story telling everybody liked that drag was great I did that later on I taught good labor then there so anyway as we students graduated that's the urban school for the deaf we would cub and do the same thing in the school I died fired up because give a story next month it was nice to see that happen later on I left Patricia I doubted I thought that fan would later on Bob later on maybe ten years after I left fan would they still have drama like son lit society maybe once or twice a year that's the friend but by that time they had Captain films Captain TV and today mainstreaming they were lost but that's no way to video they're not you strike society by side that's the car but schools the big thing 94-95 I missed that second one way back but they include the story for only poetry many things mixed bag of food yeah yeah but I doubted that's what I did with my drama I formed it in 1969 we had no buildings of our own I had to use web auditorium anger unlimited one week rehearsal on Friday Saturday so that's a many student organizations RIT can give a full three act play can one half would be stories, poems, dances, skits whatever really like a lit carbon in a school or a car for the daff one act play except for that time NTID was growing 100 students one always was interesting we got out dead and now I have dead beautiful have the money to hire people big big very costumant few others and with three act plays so by 1977 no more drama and that's why we lost something to you're trying to revive now that's good maybe Congress started to give a lot of money for new buildings so we could add students faculty that was the 1960s same time Storky was with the ASL move and that language started to change yes yes yeah well that comes for the daff I would call people because they had come from a school and because that school maybe one third of the teachers graduate from Gallaudet that they would use out of their signs around their signs the cops won cops and firms cops and TV popped up hmm so that's the hope that what Peter Cook was doing seems to be the most active this invitation money's I read about schools publications after he's died one day or three days or one week forward in the residence school something to carry on find or the teachers spied enough to to what he has find and told and I used to go off and oh that's good to know see a idea good that's interesting what you have so you list you can order these videos if you can study them yourself find out if someone has a tradition that I teach and show examples of student work from happy grade if you can include the type by Bragg he tells money stories, poems I'm getting poor stories poor I love the poor stories videotape a casque of Delado I'll be one for not more political but I include that I so do what I oppose what you then make statement get it in print print it in a kind of magazine school magazine for whatever that's right at least you have it there documentation of future research ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I wrote the stories that the movie most made of American other issues but this culture is like death culture in that it tends to be self-receptive death stories talk about death people what happens to them in everyday life like the hotel stories like that one I don't know why it's that kind of thing death ha ha ha things because an oppressed or a minority culture has many things that make them different than the majority so the humor shows their uniqueness same with Native Americans their humor, their stories, their books tend to be Native American they don't write about other things out there they write about their community their culture I've seen parallel so it's interesting that's what I try to do with RIT I taught in RIT from the beginning I was at one class how many different hats I used and then TID teaching best of you English that one class kept one foot in RIT retired from the dead I taught full time everything's fake as being modern poetry I saw I saw 1970s rise of woman studies but African American studies Asian American studies Latin American time for studies so I started characters in RIT but then I would start up a class maybe 20 25 students 5, 6, 7, 8 hearing students in the class out of discussions often we would discuss the deaf experience I was so experienced similar to character in this story novel or play so I picked it up to Pam Connich it was her fun to arrive that's good she's writing the puss with that score very important there very important to her own well, finally through Zone and National Isle and Becky Simmons archivist every W.M. set up a deaf study section 3rd to 4th grade I gave them 70 books very rare maybe half of them out of print video tapes I told them in IT very soon to have them all if not I would be there to give them my make copies and drag with me he's really interesting he wrote only a few poems Zone but as poetry carried on he is so beautiful and he can make the whole range so parents were doubtful how he still put it together and make a so-called star wonderful proud of him to get a decent fan would I told him again I cannot and then later on become colleagues that National did for the deaf to get to get out of the house unless then but after translating plays for Shakespeare theater Irene says in Washington DC he's called a son a master he lives in Maryland still living there today I made for visiting here Tim McCarty say you must love him but he's okay fun I said I know he's one often how active he is translating stuff and he finished writing the book I wanted to see that it's coming out I gave him he asked me how he gave the cyber walkie for the first time I'm a man you better California you know time I said to the entire yeah before your eyes couldn't bother with quiet eyes man he put him in the United States you know about that father wow he had two of us there did that give birth if he's doing it like he said if he's doing it he said that great so that you were here and you were here and in my videos for two hours same room same bookstores see that's great what's the title PBS I got a special program so you never know if it's in the TV guide that'd be great and I had bookstores haha haha hello you have plenty you have to cut cut cut and you and others they will come pay the cook and the other wow wow August yeah great that's great he made some good videotapes yeah good poetry really good yeah and yeah what you call a persona same brag to have that very clear yeah that's good for you to find my yeah that's the goal yeah ok