 Very, very warm welcome to everybody to this Q&A. I am not Jen Bandel, I am Katie Carr and I'm hosting the next couple of Q&As for him. And I am particularly excited to be here with all of you and speaking with Xu Liang today. I have known Xu, I think it was nearly three years ago that we met in Bristol, very, very briefly. And we have worked together on a number of things, particularly serving as holding group members for the deep adaptation forum. And yeah, I really, really enjoyed getting to know you and your work on deep adaptation over this time. So it's really, really great to be here and be able to share some of that with other members here. So we will be, this is an open Q&A and it's quite a small intimate group today. So I really want to encourage you to take the opportunity to ask questions of Xu and you can share those in the chat box with Stuart. Xu and I will be chatting for about half an hour and then we'll open up to questions to other people in the room. So hi, Xu, thank you for joining. Hi, Katie. Thank you. Thank you for having me. All right, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. So as a little bit of introduction, Xu is founder and director of Day of Adaptation, which is a nonprofit profit based in the Netherlands. And Xu, you're Chinese, Canadian, and you're living in Harlem at the moment. And Xu's master's degree is in disaster risk management and climate change adaptation, and that's from Lund University in Sweden. And Xu has previously worked at the World Food Programme in Kenya and the Global Centre on Adaptation. And Xu, all of that is really exciting. And I'm really, really curious to hear something more about you as a person. So can you tell us about yourself, please? Thank you, Katie. Let's get personal. I am obviously not Dutch, as you can tell, not a typical Dutch person at least. I'm Chinese, Canadian, born and raised in China, moved to Canada when I was 18. So if you want to place me in a context, I'm 100% Canadian, as was 100% Chinese and now living in Netherlands for four years. So probably there's a mix of Dutch, Amy, as well by now. The personal side of the experience, I would say, is it's a process of adaptation for the lack of a better description because every time I've lived in about six and a half different countries, I count Kenya as half because I was only there for six months. And I think every country I lived has been a process of adaptation, as well as my own professional journey, going from private sector, working on technology, project management to branching out to, I guess, social welfare, well-being and going to disaster risk management about six, seven years ago. And so all this has been a journey of adaptation for me as a person. And deep adaptation, as you mentioned, it's been an absolute honour to have met you and Jim and working together with you at the retreat that you've hosted two years ago, which I consider one of my, yeah, just going really deeper into understanding deep adaptation, what it means for me, and as well as state of adaptation. Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to ask you to talk about your journey to deep adaptation and collapse awareness and the work that you're doing now with date of adaptation. But you shared something with me earlier, which I'm really curious about. You said that you are in constant reconciliation between the freedom of knowledge and the constraints of reality. And then you said, for one, the concrete tiles in the garden have often called your attention and action. Can you talk a little bit more about that, please? Yes, we, so my husband and I will live in the house that we first rented when we moved here. The constraints is in the fact that the house is constructed and refurbished by our landlord previously, and we were told not to do much. And so I would look down right now, if I'm looking that out, I can see the little garden, which is the size of a big bathtub. Just to show everything in Netherlands so much smaller, but it's covered in tiles and we just struggle with what we do, how do we convince our landlord that we can make it into a greener space, for example. Yeah, that's the knowledge of adaptation, knowing that, of course, for urban space, we really need more green space as opposed to a more gray area. That was quite a conundrum. You've helped me understand what you meant and thank you. So I know that your engagement with, with deep adaptation and collapse awareness and your own process of integrating what that means for you and your life and your work has been quite a journey. Could you talk about your, about that journey of collapse awareness for you? How and when you discover deep adaptation and go involved? Right. Thank you for that question. For me, it happens about three years ago. So I was already working on adaptation topic when working at Global Center on Adaptation, which is a high level climate organization based in Rotterdam. I was not, as much as I enjoyed working there, working with different international organizations, what I noticed missing for me was to have a local contact as well as just working with not just policies, not just reports, but with actions with concrete initiatives. For example, I would rather have some groups to work with how to turn my garden, convince my landlord. So the personal space, the local actions. And I think reconciliation between what's on paper in the reports and trans, the discrepancy between the lack of action on the ground. And that's around the time window. I just started having more conversations with just people around me, even strangers, even friends as well, what does climate change, particularly climate action mean to them. And I realized as much as we have this sort of high level narrative on state actors, governments to take action. But local level, whether it's people, communities and organizations, there hasn't been as much. Also just reflecting high level climate organizations. What we're doing as organizations are how sustainable our own actions and activities are flying constantly constant flying for different conferences how sustainable is that and me being part of that to reflect on that as well. And that's around the time I started just reflecting what does that mean for me as an adaptation. I was very professional and doing more research and came across James paper. And I really very much connected in terms of sort of the structural bias that we have being part of that the existing institutions to support the narrative that that's avoiding seeing the reality for what it is. So there's limitations. We kind of need to take our head up from ignoring that and rather acknowledge the constraints that we're facing that is not going to be easy it's going to be very tough and challenging journey for adaptation. And that's around the time when we met in Bristol. We started to having the conversation about what deep adaptation means. Yeah, so and it's been, and then just very briefly so that was the start of the journey and then six months later we had the workshop, the retreat in Greece and where we went into deeper on the four hours and working with the others as well. Thank you. As you know, there is a lot of criticism of deep adaptation, the forum, the framework as do miss him. Yeah, we shouldn't give up hope and that takes away any agency or motivation to take action but that hasn't been the case for you at all I know that. So I'm wondering about. And then you, you began this nonprofit day of adaptation and yeah I'm wondering around that the your own processing your own reorientation and then how that turned into this new project. It's a good point and good observation as well I it's true I having. I do suffer from the moments of really getting depressed about what we're facing. I think it's about the mechanism how the approach. It is heavy. I remember showing the deep adaptation paper to another board member in the beginning of setting up day of adaptation and when discussing it she says she was feeling so depressed after reading it and so we had a really good conversation about it. To me personally I think fear itself is not fear itself is not was the only thing that could stop us. But what what helps for me is to find the balance in bringing out what are the ways to also bring out hope and that's to look at some of things that really inspires me the solution space. Working together, I mentioned local level working together with partners with other people adaptation so focus on the narrative and all terms of that narrative and I think that's where just maybe a good segue into my work at day of adaptation. Our approach has been focused around fun interactive engaging group activities. On climate change. So finding this angle, and I think I have said this several times to my colleagues that has that I need that personally for the work to be in that space to be able to have that balance. And I think that's important for me personally and for many people, not just look at the doom and gloom scenarios, but also look at what is it that we can do together. Yeah. And in terms of that, keeping balance, I know you spend a lot of time outdoors don't you. Every time we email each other I'm telling you I'm going camping, or it's true I do. Yes, that's part of the balance as well. Thank you for reminding me of that. Yes. Um, so, can you tell us about the activities that you've developed through day of adaptation. Sure. The, actually, a good segues. I remember when when we met in Bristol three years ago. I was sharing the idea of Dave adaptation with Jim and you and I remember Jim being very sharp as he is, he was, he is just asked me the question. Okay, so you're going to do climate communication. What are you going to do that's going to be so different from what all the other organizations or professional have been doing for decades. And that really put me on the spot because at a time I did not have the answer. I simply had the sort of I saw that the challenge I wanted to work on that challenge so luckily to two years later, three and a half years later I do have the answer in terms of what our mission and our approach so I'm going to start with you. In short, I already mentioned that just now, which is our approach. What I didn't mention is our mission is to empower people community and organizations to understand, accept and commit to climate action. And the highlight of this is we are target group, our organizations and communities, the teams that we choose to work and live with. So that's very, that's quite difficult, different from some of the other narratives you we might come across more focus on either I mentioned government state government level or individual level. That's one. And our approach is to reflect fun interactive group activities with these teams of community and organizations. So at first we had this superhero themed dialogue day, where we had that in in some of the other nonprofit organizations as schools here. And one was, in a way, superheroes where they have, whether Super Wonder Woman, or Batman, like so they activate their visions to see what's really happening around us with regards to climate change and share that with each other in smaller groups. So that's one. And the second one is a board game a climate board game called Minions of disruptions. And I can tell you, I'm not a board game designer, climate professional background and also, actually, I'm Chinese which means I'm not exactly fun is not exactly in my DNA, but you know, I'm faker to make it because we, we kind of want to create a different approach on engaging people. So we had the board game. And since Corona we actually went. So I want to show you guys this a one and a half meter, like sort of distance friendly board game. So people sit around sit around the game and the narratives that we order emissions, these minions creating disruptions in our neighborhood, or organization. So they're two different versions. And what can we do about it what are we experiencing the disruptions we're experiencing. Some of the initiatives we can carry out. I can tell you, I have been absolutely enjoying the journey of creating that narrative with my colleagues, as well as just facilitating some of the discussions. What I can do is to share share with you briefly my screen. And a visual of how the some of the activity looks like in reality. So this is just a photo collage of some of the game day activity we've had. I'm with a team from a bank, local bank called Abby and on role. They're all it people I was really impressed that they actually has very insightful questions in terms of how their team can deal with some of the disruptions like droughts for example, we went online. And another group community group. And now she can see this in the background there's a 10 year old who we were not sure if he could play the game and turns out he was leading the game experience and the conversation, which just knocked everyone knocked all the adults out of the water. So I just want to show you this. This is what going back to the question this is reflects our approach that you see. Yes, the situation the scenarios are tough, challenging. I'll stop sharing. But we can still create that space where it's welcoming. It's, it's open to have that conversation to invite the conversation. So yes, I'll stop there and just a little bit about the actually one one more thing. Of course, we've been playing this, having these dialogue days and game days. I think in the past two years, we've had around 15 game day with with our organization communities online and also physically with more than 200 participants and quite well received. So we're actually looking at some of the partnership to to scale up as well. Most recently we played with the deep adaptation forum core team, as well as a couple other groups as well, which you are part of it as well Katie. I was I was and I have to admit, before I joined, I was really unconvinced and and a bit skeptical about the gamifying of this. And I'm going to ask you about this, actually, about how how you have seen the impact with other people and organizations engaging, but around whether or not the this fun and engaging comms slant would make it easy to to like an alternative kind of denial, you know, not engaging with the issues. I joined and I did find it very fun. I enjoyed engaging with my with my colleagues. And the thing that has stayed with me most was so I played the community version and there's an organization version as well. The thing that has stayed with me most has been was the extent to which my knowledge and understanding of the complexity of the different aspects and institutions and services that were happening that couldn't be impacted how they would impact on each other. And also the noticing even me and I have done an awful lot of work around self regulation and co regulation, the extent to which the kind of simulated additional pressure impacted on the way that I engaged. But yeah, so I loved it. I really loved it. I think there's a lot of benefit for lots of different contexts. But I do want to go back to this, this question of the what felt to me a bit discordant around using a game approach. Right. So I think to your point. The gamification process is only a means to an end. And the end in this case is an alternative way of communicating climate change the complexity like as you mentioned complex complexity of it in a way that is inviting. And it's known that one of the barriers with engagement climate engagement is the the doom and gloom, pure doom and gloom discussion alone is not sufficient. So, or so so the question is how do we develop alternatives. And this is my inspiration actually came from, let's say my husband. And, and also he's friends who are into board games and so I think that's one of the things that caught my attention if this is something people are willing to do in their spare time, and they're not forced to do it. So this is something that we can latch on to and just, hey, what if people actually like enjoying the game so much that they're willing to do this at their own time, or paying for in which is the case for us, which will generate the funds necessary to even engage more organizations or schools that don't necessarily have the funds so that's really where the thinking got started. So the experience is to not just portray the complexity but also inviting people. So they have, they can develop share, develop this common language. What's what quite often we see is and this is in organizations. We can come back to the bank example for example, in this case, what we heard afterwards is everyone of course knows about climate change in their own private setting reading about news, but in their workplace as a team they have never had this conversation. And in fact, before this game day, which is held at a park, the team member reflected afterwards someone write a reflection piece voluntarily, know that when he was told there's an event he wasn't told what was other than the topic which is sustainability and climate. He was already dreading there is going to be a boring lecture, and he was pleasantly surprised and as well as his colleagues that is a very fun experience. So we play the game and then we had a break. And then we had this one hour conversation to bring the topic back to their own team. Back to the reality in some of the questions were you know for your either your team, or your organization, or the clients, how would these extreme climate scenarios impact you. Droughts, for example, that's some heat waves in the Netherlands where I live now. That's not something people are familiar with. And it's quite, quite encouraging to see the responses coming from their own team. For example, someone suggesting you know we need to offer different products to clients. Consider the the insurance for example or the financing tools were often clients, or someone said even for our own team, we should have flexible work hours or having siesta's. And I think we're reading the results afterwards. What struck me is, it's far more interesting for the team to take this list of ideas that's generated by themselves after this experience, as opposed to for an expert coming and tell them you should do that you should do that. It's a bought very strong bottom up approach. So that's one and another thing I remember I was really impressed was one of the question was how likely are you taking willing to take action as a as an individual, as a team, or as an organization. And the highest response was as a team. It was twice likely than as an organization and as individuals somewhere in between. So the togetherness togetherness is enough we are we recognize that social climate change is not a individual issue is a collective issue and I think the very next category of togetherness togetherness that everyone we're feeling comfortable with is indeed a team. Like in this conversation, this is an environment where we feel comfortable we have that direct connection with each other so that was another very revealing point. But yes, so I was happy that this kind of game day experience to generate ideas from the participants themselves that's relevant for them. Thanks. I'm going to shortly ask Balush, my pronounce that wrong again to ask his question but first I've got, I've got one last question for you shoe. And in when I played the game. I'm going to admit out loud for the first time I cheated. And I know that. Yeah, the way it works and the intensity that builds up in the way that you that I experienced it. And in this kind of simulated context different parts of what keep the community coherent can begin to collapse and then have knock on effects. So I'm wondering about whether, if, when you've played the game in with the I think said, 100 over the last. No, I can't remember when you've played this in real time with people. What happens when people experience that when they're collective agency doesn't save the day. And how do you hold space around the connection between this is a game it's a simulation and also look at what's happening in the world. So, the, okay, so to answer your question the game is a simulation is a model of reality. In the game, it's both teams. So for those who have not seen the board game, each game, each team of three to four people is it's an organizational community and then the multiples forming a network. And during the game between communities organizations can be both competitive as well as collaborative. So that's a very interesting dynamic that you don't see in typical game setting and to answer your question Katie in reality in physical forms. It's not much different from online forms I think it's in physical forms it's easier right for people to go over to another board game and having that conversation of, do you want to work together on this project, we need to pay this month and negotiation. And the key thing is, it comes down to human nature, it brings out that climate change, climate action at the end of it, we're still dealing with humans and the leaders or the group dynamics between organizations so how can we collaborate, despite the challenges of constraints of reality. Can we make it happen if I think one of the collaboration is a cost certain amount of funding. My team only has like small amount of funding. Your team has more can we still make this collaboration happen knowing that maybe down the road, we can return the favor for example so it really highlights that the flexibility if you the willingness to make something happen and vice versa the disruption that has done knock on effect. I think people are aware that in a cognitive cognitive way. But when you experience that in a tangible way so physically experience that and you mentioned that earlier like the timing pressure. So that's always something that we try to portray through the game. It's not about us telling people that climate action is, there's urgent need for that or that you need to collaborate people deduct an experience through their own experience. So after the game experience it opens up possibilities for that discussion to potentially form non traditional partnership, for example. Yes, the aspect of the psychology of collaboration or competition and it is really really beautifully designed into the game as well. I want to ask Balash, please if you're ready with your question you can unmute yourself. Yes, thank you very much Katie. I hope you can hear me well. Thanks. Well, my question is I just, I'm curious to hear your experience. How is it regarding the attitude of people, both in organizational and community level, when you were actually confronting them with reality. One of questions survey questions we ask after the game is to describe the game experience in a few few words or sentences confront confronting is one of the common responses we see. I think, and this comes from some of the Dutch participants even so you know that are very direct so for them to say confronting it really does mean is quite confront confrontational. And I think based on people's responses I think it's actually welcomed because it's tied into the fun innovative space and that is allowing people to have that critical discussion with each other. People who don't necessarily work in climate change but everyone's aware of it. It's sort of like poking through the layer of pretending that it doesn't so it's actually getting over the denial of the confronting the issue as it is to to have a have a different conversation about solution space about what we can do. So it's actually it in retrospect it becomes the easier part of the game. Does that make sense is as much as confront confronting it's actually it becomes just it's it opens up the space behind it. Yeah, well, what I'm also curious that how often did you experience the good old denial and what forms of it, if you did. Yes, we definitely did. We went not not often, but we still do get responses. And I've heard from a couple individuals who said it's, you know, is it really caused by human action, for example, or it's it's fake news. I've received different range of denialism, but what's interesting is to for their colleagues to see this. Again, people who don't normally talk about climate change with each other so it's actually sort of like how I didn't know that this person holds this field that changes the dynamic or discussion. But it's still welcome enough for everyone to share their view to not to be afraid to have that space for discussion. I think that's, that's unique. It's almost like the same effect of having a beer over the bar to talk about this without drinking, but so I think we need to have the space this open welcoming space where people can have this conversation. We all came like I can speak from my own experience. I think generations a decade ago more than a decade ago when I was talking to my husband, husband. He wasn't sure. I mean, it's still to him is news and new information. And there's a process of we have to accept for some people there's a process of acceptance. Some are longer than others. But if we shun people from opening up then it will just the issue will just grow manifest and this does my personal opinion. Thank you. Thanks. I'm going to ask Sasha, would you like to ask your question to show you know. Yes, thank you. I'm really curious to experience the game. And I just wonder, are there ways that people can join a group online that is that set up to do it or how long does it take like if I were to try to organize to do the game. What kind of expectations would I want to set for people. Thank you Sasha and thank you balance for the question just now. And I love your enthusiasm Sasha you just. It's almost like you're asking the question I wish you would be asking. The answer your question would typically organize them for community teams of community and organizations and it's. It's about three hours. So we're a day of adaptation the experiences like days game days we consider this as units of where people want to discuss them. So three hours, I will say is a comfortable time window for for this engagement experience and you can contact us just send me email. I will leave my email address here in the chat window. And we can see how to arrange that for group between, we usually say between six to 30 plus, because the game is very scalable as well we've played this for you can in in theory scale this up quite a quite a bit. And what else right in terms of open sessions we currently don't have any sort of dropping sessions. Because well that may change in the future. I don't I don't we haven't discussed this option but from our experience what works best is indeed with what I call what we call units and resilience almost like your immediate community or organization because at the end of the process we want the participants to have a sense of we're in this together. There's something we can do together for for our local space. So I hope that answer your question there. Sasha. Okay, great. Yeah. I did take part a little bit in the one that you the demonstration you did for the business and finance group. And there was a little bit of tech that I didn't fully understand at the beginning with, you know, getting online with there be somebody to help with that or do we need to have someone on the team who understood that. And yes, the online is thanks for reminding me of that I was thinking you look very familiar. It's been a while but the online version was such as referring to it's on a platform called table topia. So we just to have a tutorial to make sure people can use the space and and also because it's a collaborative space and I think what Katie said as well you know we a deep adaptation. We're very sort of failure friendly. If anything fails, someone cannot get online. It's a great opportunity to collaborate with your team members to figure out how you can support each other and still enjoy the experience. And so yeah, it's, it's a because I think the game space allows that as well. Thanks you and it's my understanding that the development so far has been on a voluntary has been through voluntary effort and you are looking. It's not funded for rolling out for free. So yes, it is possible it was offered to to deep adaptation groups but to for any spirit, you're looking for ways for it to be financially sustained. Right, typically for organizations with financial means, we do have a sort of a standard fee arrangement or sliding scale depends on the ability, we have charged, for example, the bank or that we worked with a municipality or some other nonprofit with financial means to support the effort of indeed where you mentioned development and design effort, but and also we want to scale up to roll out. And we've also offered this as a much discount rate to universities and sometimes free for schools and communities. The key thing so our mission is about impact driven so we want to make that happen to reach more people to offer this as a way to inspire other innovative ideas to communicate about climate change with different target groups. Yeah, thank you and then I'm going to ask Jonathan would you like to ask your question. Hi, it's so interesting. Thank you very much. And I was wondering that in the kind of scenario in the game. Is it a sort of deep adaptation assumption you know that we assume things are going to collapse and fall apart and how are we going to deal with that. Or is it a sort of range of disasters and transformations of various kinds and therefore a range of adaptations. Thanks Jonathan for that question. In the game. We communicate disruptions through a deck of cards. That's randomly occurring. One of the cards is indeed more leaning towards sort of, you know, something, I think it's a situation flooding happens in the community we're not sure if we can rebuild like the community. It's devastating and reflecting on the effect. That could be just knock out effect. And I will say the game definitely reflects the it works with the essential functions of community or organization. So it's very much reflecting on the resilience aspect of things what do we value and of course as the game design we have selected certain aspects and there's there's arbitrary. There's there's a there's arbitrary choice there. But part of the discussion could be reflecting Hey, as our own community organization are the other things that we value that we preserve, for example, our resilience aspect. Restoration are more to, I think we have definitely initiative cards that that that represent restoration aspect. Reconciliation very much sort of through the confronting dynamic of between teams or between players. The differences come up. Sort of how to reconcile. And I'm missing an hour can someone help me out. I said reconciliation. Restoration resilience. Thank you to let go. That one. We do have some aspects about sort of lifestyle reflection in the initiatives or initiative cards. So the game itself, in summary, it does reflect different aspects of the four hours. Is it deep enough. Not we were actually I think after playing with the the quarantine couple month ago and I was thinking like in the future it will be really nice to have a version that's sort of more on the deeper end of adaptation process. More transformative, not just resilience preservation but more transformative experience. But it is a model of what we're going through now as most communities and organizations do. Thank you very much. I have a load more questions but I don't want to hold the space maybe another time or write them out. I would suggest to type them out because I think regardless we get to answer them or not. One thing I really appreciate is today's session I was thinking what is my goal today is really just to share my, my own experience with deep adaptation as well as the work we're doing at David at Dave adaptation, but also this exchange of questions. It's really one is very valuable. I have a colleague who joined recently and I was encouraging her to share her questions, because that way we can work on addressing them and exchanging these ideas. So please do share those questions. I think Minya has been encouraging me to write more blog and for example the game like so that the game journey. So I'm just about to hopefully next week to share this on our blog on our website, website, how this game experience came to be what is the theory of change behind it. So in the beginning stewards thanks that you shared the website for me and this goes to show how bad I am with generally marketing side I'm just not up to thank you for for helping. So yeah check out our website or find us on LinkedIn. That's a good place to exchange ideas and questions. Thank you yes you what I will do is make sure that everybody who who registered to join this session gets your website in the in the post event email that we send out. And also when when the recording goes on to gems YouTube channel will include your details there too. Sounds great. So I, I've received a private question, which says I would love to hear about your thoughts about cheating. I think cheating is a microcosm for what is going to happen as society breaks down and your instinct to cheat is what we all will eventually do and I'm not going to name this person because they didn't ask that to be called out but it is a it was directed at me because I said that I was I cheated in the game. And so one of the reflections I had through the experience was it challenged a lot of it was kind of as I said I have been involved in deep adaptation for a long time. I regularly practice the deep listening and the reflection and processing sides and being involved in your game revealed parts of me that I didn't know were there. And yes, one of them was around cheating and it was confronting to me there was a kind of. Oh, this is a game it's fun and also there was a part of me that really did not want to lose, you know, really really made space for this, the competitive element of me. And one of the reflections that I shared with you we were kind of like a guinea pig group for you and me, but making space around the actual game experience for the debriefing of that kind of stuff so and that's where the game focuses on the the outer the actions the practical resilience in communities and organizations, but the inner reflection and change is what can happen outside working with working with team. That's a very good point to be fair. We could probably have a whole day experience after playing like the full day experience after playing the game to really dig into the the inter. So the inner inner experience as well as group dynamics, what you're describing Katie is is very true. It shows different personality that we might not be aware of the Harari Harari window right like what you're aware of or not aware of our personality. And I know me for one, even though I designed the game. I'm terrified every time I play the game. Because I know how tough it is. And how much I need my team. And they look at me as if I know everything about team but I'm, you know what's the key team has the game has a minus oh right just like climate dimension. So, I love how you're sorry touching. It's true it's it's it gets us going but this is why it's necessary to have the space. It's not always just fun. Someone else, a game master Nancy bears where I work with here in Netherlands. She said you know it's a myth that games all fun. Most of time is frustration, but I think it's true in a way, but regardless what it is it act activates some more dimension of emotions that we have about climate change topic that is not just passive on the receiving end of another bad news like we're actively involved in this conversation. And having said that I think the question about cheating is probably more directed to you my two cents there is actually the game challenges us in reflecting what our values are and in the context and what we consider as more important so I think it's actually a good healthy exercise of reconciliation. I forgave myself quite quickly. I want to invite one last question, or maybe two we'll see how we go from Christine. Yeah, can you briefly read out your questions first please Christine. I'm wondering about whether you've used this game in schools and colleges and are you in discussion with education departments about this. I'm very concerned that we should teach climate truth and there are many eco schools in the UK, but I'm not sure how much the curriculum for students has changed to encompass the knowledge and the skills that they'll need in the future. I thank you Christine for that question. It is something that becomes very clear to me. Education is so essential and it's, you know, quite often we talk about hard infrastructure once it's developed, it's hard to adapt. And yet we have some of the youth growing up still learning following the same curriculum. And I have I share the same concern that we need to update the curriculum to introduce more elements where youth can start thinking about how they need to adapt and put their time and effort towards the subjects that are interested you know just not just engineering but climate engineering, sorry, climate aware engineering for example. So to answer your question we, we have had limited experience in engaging school and this is sort of the archelius of our organization this is quite transparent, but I think it's, it's easy to for me to share because I am not that so which means I my network here in Netherlands is quite weak. I might my Dutch is good enough, but forming network developing that trust takes time. So this is a process that's taking quite while long while in the meantime, it seems like my, you know, just organizations who speak English and have that I worked with in past professional network has has a more interest. One of the hope, of course, is if you see if you have network that you will be interested to put us in touch with. Absolutely. Like I mentioned earlier, I was impressed this 10 year old and I think Sasha you're in another call where another 10 year old was just raised the ace the game and share so much wonderful insight. And we want to see more of that to invite voices from each other to hear this. And I'm going to run out of time for sharing the story but I need to share this. Just last week, I was at a skate park meeting another colleague her daughter was skateboarding with another friend, 11, nine year old. So I was told by the friend, after the IPCC report came out her 11 year old daughter decided to double up her effort in cleaning up garbage around the picking up garbage around the neighborhood. You know, to me that's like the expression of equal anxiety she's doing what she can. We're talking about that the nine year old and 10 year old two little girls were having this conversation about, you know, are you eating, are you vegetarian. Or, no, I'm not or I'm eating, and I was listening to that I was just part of my heart was was, yeah, hurting to see that like, you know this the conversation that they're having this. Their adults are not. And afterwards I reflected with my husband we need to have this conversation. And even for the kids not just on the playground, when they're sort of feeling like almost like a refuge from from this discussion we want to have the space to discuss this in classroom where they're welcomed. So yes, we, and through this game we can introduce those questions and open up a space. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you sent a question and we didn't have time to get around to it I'm very very sorry. We will be sharing as we said earlier shoes shoes websites that you can contact her afterwards. But I just want to say a huge thanks to all of you who have joined huge thanks to those of you who asked questions. Thanks to Stuart for supporting today and shoe especially for your, for your time it's been a huge pleasure. Thank you very much. And thank you very much Katie for hosting this. You're a fantastic jam. Thank you. Thank you everyone for joining us.