 Thank you everyone who's joined us this evening. This is a presentation put on by the Vermont Institute of Community and International Involvement which is dedicated to bringing you controversial subjects in hopes that we can encourage all of us to think critically about what's happening in our world. Tonight we're going to be talking about the elections that have occurred in France recently. The election that was between President Emmanuel Macron of France and Marine Le Pen, the leader of the National Front, although does that name change now from National Front to something else I think? National National National National Gathering in a way. Yeah coming together. With us tonight are two French speakers from the other part of the French world. Jacob Volger is the Executive Director of the Association of Africans Living in Vermont. He is a man that was born and brought up in French West Africa. One of the old, I don't know what to call them, I guess, colonies of France. He washes French politics carefully and he has a lot to say about the current election that was brought up in Burkina Faso and he is now with us in Vermont. The other man is Eric Añero, another French speaker from French West Africa. His country is the Ivory Coast. Both have a lot of interest in French politics because they were part of the French empire, whether they wanted to be or not, for decades and so this election has a lot of bearing on Africa. So we're going to talk about both what happened in France and also what happened how that was viewed in other parts of the French world. I might also say that because of these two gentlemen and people like them, I'm seeing in and women like that also. I'm seeing in Burlington Vermont and in our whole area a resurgence of the French language. Remember that this was a part, Burlington and Quebec, part of New France for many years prior to the formation of the United States and French was probably the first language here and that is happening again because we've had the privilege of having so many new Americans come back to this area and they are also French speakers. Okay, so I'm going to ask some of the two of these gentlemen about what their views were then of the French election and I hope that we can have time at the end for questions. So I'll first turn to Jacob, the gentleman from Burkina Faso, because I think that he has the view, perhaps he can tell us a little bit of why he thinks that Emmanuel Macron won his very controversial election. So Jacob, why? Thank you so much Alessendi and thank you to you all for being here today with us. I think we are going through a lot of turmoil and we and the world in general need a steady leadership, a leader that can reignite or gather everyone and reconfort the rest of the world. Over the past years we've seen how we went from south to I would say to the opposite side with what's happened to the U.S. and in the U.S. with the previous administration just focusing on bigotry not trying to reignite the world and also that has served as a lesson to other so-called dictators who were trying to learn from the same tactics to also launch their political views and that's what's created a lot of turmoil and a lot of bigotry throughout the world where few people are using their own interests to pull people against each other. And with what's happened since February in Ukraine I think the French election also was going to serve as a step forward to dividing further this world. That's why I think it's really important that the French people have chosen a proper leadership that can work to rebuild not only unity in France but also work on looking at larger coalitions throughout the world so we can come to a stable place where we can look at the development opportunities throughout the world and help those who are the most in need. Okay so then on my turn to you Jacob and then also to Eric but there was a real threat from Marine Le Pen the leader of the Rosson-Vermont National and why did she do so well then? I think Marine Le Pen did so well because she embodied the fear of the larger community. We don't see in each other peers that can support each other we see in the other person someone who is coming to take from us and that's what Marine Le Pen was able to raise bringing up the voice of those who are left out from everything that is happening since the beginning and since the middle of the last century where many factory jobs were shifted overseas those who are trying to make ends meet are not able to support and sustain their families and their lives anymore so they think left out so what is there now is seeing in the other person mainly foreigner seeing those people the way of taking from them and that's what Marine Le Pen was able to bring to the table and anyone who felt left out anyone who is afraid of this globalization was tempted to vote for Le Pen which I think is not a way of doing politics. Politics is working to bring everyone together with coalition that can help the nation thrive not raising fears that can put people against each other. Okay well thank you okay Eric so what is your view okay I'll ask you the same question Macron seems to have symbolized would you agree kind of the status quo and the order that is established in France right but what about well go ahead no I think like you know we're seeing it through the prism of the mainstream like also you know the liberal world that is today is dominating the rest of the world and by what what does that mean the liberal world I mean like capitalism world like you know those who are against those those who take the jobs from France to China those who want to wage war everywhere on the planet just to feed the military complexes money those who are still keeping people in Africa and around the world under neocolonialism which is what what's neocolonialism I mean if you look at like the 15 or 14 countries that I linked to France through you know these ridiculous you know a currency which is the currency that is controlled and then I weigh my words by the French government and you know the bank of France if you see all these you know for example Niger which is the main supplier of a uranium to France and to a lot of countries in the world and then Niger doesn't even have an electricity basic needs for the whole world Macron also represents that word to which I mean which uses the monetary fund the IMF the word being to oppress people around the world but also Macron represents what France was against this time and that brought you like many French people that usually not don't vote for Marie Le Pen to vote for her it wasn't only about you know I agree that you know the ideas some of the ideas of the national front in France and all these resurgencies I mean of nationalism around Europe it's it's some of the ideas are frightening of course we only see the idea of not welcoming the immigrants this is the scarecrow that you know usually the mainstream media will use disqualify you know what these people are saying okay so let me stop so Marie Le Pen is seen as anti-immigrant she's seen as anti-immigrant she's seen at anti you know because Macron and you know a lot of liberals in France are in favor of European Union the big ensembles they participation to NATO and all all this but Marie Le Pen and a lot of nationalists across you know the globe that are you know just you know sparing like here and there are against these big ensembles this globalization that has brought according to them more trouble than benefit of course the first years of globalization like in the US allowed us to have I don't know some computers for half of the price that you would have paid if they were manufactured in your country but at which extent I mean at which cost jobs and Macron is ultra-liberal in France people are very much you know jealous of the you know retirement system and the social system. Macron want to have them work three more years Macron is definitely and the election showed he was elected just because people who didn't want Marie Le Pen to be there. To me it's the downfall of democracy because democracy is about you bring your ideas and then I you defend your ideas if I like them I vote for them but all the people that wanted to vote for my Marie Le Pen were called you know sub people people that don't have enough brain you know usually that you know left wing morale of you know we are we work we work more than you guys because you want to be a little country when we want the world to be united it's the process of globalization that happened Marie Le Pen made a search which is like five years ago she was almost like 10 million or 15 million votes behind this year she's only five million votes away from her she won by 48 percent 42 percent around 41 which is more than what she did last time but bottom line is at least close to half of the country didn't vote for Macron and then even more because only one third around one third of the French went to vote and then among these people only 58 percent of the country voted for Macron it means that Macron was only voted by a quarter of France so lessons have to be you know drove from from that okay well what are you thinking is that correct that people just chose Macron because they feared her I would say that's part of the problem the reality is that we are going through a lot of turmoil over the past two or three years we've gone through all the hardship of COVID not many people were able to make and with the progress of health and science we are living longer not many people are thinking long term all the safety net most of the developed countries had today is going to go away in few years because people are living wrong retirement plans need to be reports our plans today would not be able to sustain the lives of those who are living wrong maybe my parents are living up to 80 today in few years I might go beyond 80 years if there is no category and these are things that the public should understand when we are making policies you are not making them for tomorrow you are making them for the long term so it can sustain what we have today and if people are feeling that those changes are affecting their ways of life and people are not willing to accommodate or to make some adjustment to those changes we are going to be doomed down the road we are going to use small shots we are going to use small words and also a bigger tree to divide each other not working on the long run to solve issues that would affect our community and that's also what is affecting the rest of the developed world because Macron had to face a lot of movement in France with all the folks who were on the street before COVID and that's also affected the way people saw Macron as someone who is an elite coming to tell them what to do but Macron should rethink that we have real need the country has real need not only France but even other developed countries they have real need but how can we make sure that what we are sharing with our communities with our countries can be perceived as a way of helping everyone have a better life down the road we are not as a politician we should not make it seem that see that we are taking away from you we should make sure that you are part of the solution you are part of the problem we are trying to solve today and that's also one of the things Macron and all the politicians should keep in mind when they're working towards the long term rethinking and looking at what happened today those who didn't come to vote those who voted against him and putting policies on the table that are meant for a long term change Robin do you have a question June I can't wait you're muted Robin didn't yet we can hear you what what are you saying I I have no question as of this moment maybe okay all right so what then I'm going to ask a question is there another question yeah yeah yeah correct in in general if any of the three of you can shed some light onto what percentage of the French public has voted in the last few elections prior to this I'm not I'm not asking you for an exact percentage but you know is it was it similar to this time around or is it significantly more it's significantly less there's a I mean this time you know I know that's in the in some elections prior to that they were less you know they could have been less but you know since Pompey do and that's even what the historians are saying Macron has been the the the worst elected president since Pompey meaning that the abstention was high the and then not only the abstention but those who went and casted cast a black ballot can you do that in France yeah you can do that in France so when all this together will give you an idea so meaning that if you do the the the math Macron has been elected only by a quarter of the population which is his base so what is that based you know it's like I mean Macron Macron is has come with a heavy load of you know like it's it's a super star it's a media product it's like mostly you know and of course he represents that idea I told you before we begin that France is still a monarchy somehow you know whereby even if it's a republic the president has all the power he can wage war he can do whatever he wants with few counter I mean you know I mean you can you feel balance of power to be honest so that's maybe why when Marine Le Pen is so close to the presidency then they're scared because then she will have to use the same power as Macron used to do what she wants but I wouldn't be I wouldn't be so scared of someone who represents like the ideas of a great part of France to be there if I had count I mean I have ways in my democracy to balance the power of that president you know what the separation about yeah it's like hardly the case in France you know they have a I mean a national assembly and things but you know the president even Macron is called Jupiter you know Jupiter is like he decides everything the timing you know the substance of any discussion so that's why maybe they're scared about Marine Le Pen coming to use that same power maybe to go by you know you know decisions that will not will be detrimental to the new world all but you know a lot of French people also voted for her because the media from the beginning have portrayed Marine Le Pen as like he was she was a scarecrow so people and especially the older people voted for Macron the youth didn't who did they vote for they abstained and then they vote also for Mélenchon which who is like the new left wing the ultra you know I mean so uh people voted for Macron those who like that status quo of that Republic of France we vote you know you know you know how it is with Jupiter with you know the Solanity and in fact Macron is always seen as the winner in debate because over there and then the one who comes with like the best phrases with a lot of ridicule with a lot of esprit and spirit in the discussion over what is the real issue so Macron knows how to you know so they seem as a very it's like if they were seeing Louis says or Louis Gato or something like that so but the real thing is why so many people even in the French andies where you have a majority of black people voted for Marine Le Pen? Eric just told me that um and I think I would like to ask more about that why in the French departments right like Martinique is a French part of France but being in the Caribbean is hugely black and you're telling me that they voted for Marine Le Pen and doesn't that contradict the popular idea of Marine Le Pen of being racist and a bigger and anti-immigrant and so forth? No she could be okay but it means that the real questions of these elections were beyond merely depicting a whole block of French as non I mean a non-favorable of you know immigration because it's a very very uh I mean uh it's a short cut the real issues were that democracy is is like dying that you know people are fed up with like jobs going around globalization has failed to me and that maybe it's the signal to the leaders to start with thinking globalization and then to bring the debate to local issues rather than taking all the money I wish this money that is being taken to Ukraine because France right after Macron you know won, France has I mean like increased its military you know I mean aid to Ukraine with now weapons that are bigger and more legal it means that it's money that is being taken to Ukraine that money I wish could be taken to those who don't have you know food at home then they won't have you know any reason to vote for Marine Le Pen or someone who's seen as but I don't want to take the be the only one okay Kurt did you have something else yes no I did not no no he Eric answered my question okay what what concern me is the numbers of people who abstain in this election I wonder if you both could comment on that I think over the past the last three election we've seen a decline in the number of people who were in the courts not abstaining money but even uh casting land ballots which you can't do in this country yes in the U.S. But it's a form of discontent people are not happy with the leaders but the sad part also about France is the fact that many candidates can run during the first one and if you look at any other party beside Macron's party and Le Pen's party we have a lot of fragmented parties that are left leaning for example that could have come second if they had one candidate but they didn't they did it because they had more than we have in four or five candidates that were left leaning that run against these two major candidates that's fragmented their votes so maybe things could change a few weeks from now when we see when we go to the parliamentary reaction because these left-leaning parties could coalesce to run against at least the two major candidates that came up front okay but still in all the question of abstentions concerned me because I think that's the same in this country right yeah I mean okay so you have a small number of people going to the polls and it's a way of saying a plague on both your houses because they don't vote period they don't make that choice either in this country and they apparently didn't in France as well so they're they're in a way they're they're Macron did not win by that much right yeah he didn't win by that much and then also he was saved just because people voted I mean they call it le vote utile meaning like you have to like sprague marie we don't want marie le pen but this is what the media and those who in to me that campaign against marie le pen I'm not saying that I'm pro le pen but I'm pro the expression the free expression of the people even if they lean towards the ultra right it's because the people of the left didn't do the job the job or there's no way to to you know this is a reason for that because it's too easy to fail to to to bring I mean to give you know what the people need and then to put it on the pudding war or to put that on marie le pen you know it's like here I mean inflation started right before way before the war so everything cannot be blamed for I mean to you know upon I mean wouldn't so in France it's marie le pen is doing so well because she's carrying you know the you know the thoughts of a majority of friends why they majority I mean along I mean I mean you know if I wish you know everybody went to vote who would have known if eventually what she's going but in any case she is the leader of a certain part of France that cannot be treated as people don't who are okay can I ask you a question so that's pretty much what has been said about president former president Trump right that he also is expressing or he is the voice of the really discontented right okay so is that what is being what you're saying is is that true about le pen marie le pen is she the voice of the discontented I'm not not maybe I'm not I'm not saying a majority yeah but some of them yeah because the people that are even from the far I'm a far left voted some of them voted for her but marie le pen maybe doesn't weigh that much maybe but you know the fact that she's doing so well is means that you know her base now is reaching to across France and then you know like people that are not necessarily against immigration or you know you know like marie le pen you know are behind her because she's talking about issues that are their issues every day she's talking about how you go to the hospital how you're going to you know your your your your pension and things like that when my home only talks about going to war with Ukraine being like the like macroeconomy you know there's a there's there's the macro is more into macroeconomy and then the other candidate try to bring him into microeconomy so that's to me the big difference you know I think we miss something in during these debates I wish those who are asking the question had asked the candidates to lay out their plans for the future not talking about the issue of the moment we all know those problems but what are we doing to solve those issues down the road and this is what it's like maybe the the upcoming election will make a difference you know helping people understand that they should hold their leaders to the fire so they can give them answers to their problem but not promising them things that are not relevant to their life did others any other questions robin's got a question yes but you're muted robin yeah so um yeah so i'm wondering uh le penne is said to be anti-immigrant but as i understand it uh my crone is actually his immigration policy isn't that progressive but what i'm wondering about is not the immigrants but the the the the difference in their policy towards their their empire in africa in other words do it does le penne have or my crone have a different attitude towards the the russian military being in niger or molly or wherever it was and the recent coups that have uh uh toppled uh presidents in a number of franco file uh countries do they have a different uh outlook on that or more or less the same that's a great question that's a really great question i think and jago resatwin yeah i think uh there is a difference because when you have a wrong perception of history you will create more wars and that's what put in the imagine today most of our african country decide that this country was part of my country i need to start a war to take that part back where would we be and that the wrong understanding of history that put in hat i do not support french colonialism in africa but i do also blame african leaders for letting that perpetuate for letting that continue because we after so many years of independence since 1960 we should have come with policies that could empower our population we could work on strategies not on ideology and that's also what is lacking most of our country yeah but on that you know it's very important you know these two ideas even if you go to africa today among the franco people at least those who want to get rid of french neocolonialism would tell you that they were in favor of marine le pen marine le pen is promoting ideas that maybe are flattering these people of course because she's saying that she wants to change the dynamic of you know france and and in the relationship between france and former calom I don't know if it's just uh uh you know a wishful thinking we could think wishful thinking because you know all the french they're all together for the interest of france which is france is a superpower because it exploit 15 countries or more in africa uh france also has always been impeding the aspiration of freedom in these countries in africa is the leadership is bad but that leadership is composed of puppets under the strings of france and those who have tried to escape their control were brutally murdered like tomas in working out so it's not that there's no there's no uh i mean a tentative i mean attempt to get rid of french colonial neocolonialism but they come with brutal you know uh repercussions so uh people people wanted a new way of seeing africa and macron is in the continuum of the neocolonialism becomes even in in africa ask the president of the country where jacob is from to go take care of the air conditioning machine he comes and can reunite like leaders that are almost his fathers of course they his fathers because they don't want to leave their power but if you go from like a guy from like watara in africa he's been macron has accepted that watara gets a third illegal mandate macron is part of what we call france afrique which is uh foggy you know a foggy and very much you know uh uh uh uh uh uh gems bonding you know way of you know seeing the relationship between africa and and and and and france they decide who's your president they decide for example like in the case of mali to do whatever they want they decide in senegal what to build i mean to to have like a train system that is ten times the the real price of the train system they decide in every course to build another train system which is almost two billion that two billion euros when uh i mean another a chinese company while even another european company a turkish company would have done that for half a billion so macron represented during this election that's old france that doesn't want to change their relationship with africa okay so what was the difference though was there a difference as robin was asking between how french africa viewed those two candidates what was the was there a difference between marina european and uh macron anyway you i think the difference between the two based on what i've seen with uh electors is choosing the devil they don't know versus the devil they know and i would say this french is a nation of immigrants and many immigrants that what was being said by marina lupin represented danger for them because we've seen that the flow of the world we've seen that here in the u.s we've started that immigrants is your problem you need to get rid of them or your neighbor is taking away from if the same concept is starting also in france many i would say close to half of the country will be divided it's beating one other country against the other and people wanted that stability making sure that they can still continue to work on solving their differences than being fighting each other okay but i asked okay i wanted to come explain but i really wanted to know in africa itself what or rather i would like to know does marina lupin differ from macron the attitudes toward the old french empire very much so because i mean i'm not in the big i mean i mean the deep deep down it's the french interest right but you know the left right uh and left i mean uh you know i mean the ultra right and ultra left are saying that it's a bad time melanchon said it mac melanchon melanchon is like the leader of like the la france ensoumise those who are out there with the white vest amiguelo vest and he's like he's like the new leader of the left socialism yes i some kind of belly sanders but you know bernie is like you know considered like over there it would be a liberal in france rather than a socialist but you know they want a new relationship with with africa marina lupin said and i'm not sure if it's right i mean she's she's truly thinking about it but she said if france change changes the way that they are crippling the countries in africa we won't have that many immigrants you know the immigration even is what is more the you know makes more sense it's even better for the people like macron because then they can have cheap labor so i mean so marina pan says or does she not that the people should be stay at home stay at home we have to have another relationship with these countries not impoverish them so that all the people are living when they say that a country like france is a country of immigrants i agree but why are people willing to die in the military and and see to just go to france and have shitty excuse my french but you know shitty jobs in in france it's just because their countries are not good countries even though africa has all of the resources of the world but their countries are still countries where they cannot have a good living they're leaving these countries to uh to go to to europe to me it should be even a moral you know a duty to stop that immigration not just to open their arms to people that are almost dead when they come by the sea but to make sure that these people are not leaving the country for that to happen uh you know the former colonial powers have to stop you know crippling these countries with death with you know with you know you know exploiting the resources choosing who's to be the president over there and let the africans like tomas sankara show to the world that an african country that is made of proud people that you know know that you know you you don't have to eat a baguette or two baguette or from a french baguette per day but you can eat your own cassava transforming into something that is good you can make a living and be a proud man under tomas sankara i'm pretty sure there were less bukinabe people living tomas sankara was uh uh you know the president of bukinapaso a fidel castro of bukinapas so to speak but he was killed by his number two under the influence of france and ivory coast president because you know he was against the interests of the west so i think that immigration of course you know when an immigrant come to your country you have to you have to help him but you shouldn't you shouldn't foster more immigration by crippling down this country that day that's that's the difference between the two but did she say that she said that but i don't think she laid out your policies that doesn't make a difference okay yes maybe but wait minute can i ask you then jake of a question do you think that that theory of immigration has any holding i mean if i if she's saying that africa should be built up and so that people could stay in africa rather than coming to france do you think that that's a wrong policy it is not a wrong policy but you need to lay that out when you are campaigning but not vague on what you will do and using bigotry to put people or pin people against each other but you know but micro also use bigotry and then the you know the mainstream media is also as soon as uh marine le pen appears on tv oh she's like the devil she's this of course you know she could be even france in france at school you don't have the right to have a veil yeah not in at school but you can i mean you can do i mean macron is for the veil outside the school but not in the school what is it well there is a difference in terms of the law there is i mean the law from france right but you know a girl from you know here in the us muslim girls can keep her hijab at school if that's what she wants so but you know so macron is not that and then robin said that his immigration policies are not that different from you know at least marine le pen use it as maybe a campaign rhetoric because she knows that she can she can get people around that idea but macron when you know uh when the election looms the people like macron start to you know crack down on immigration just because they know that a lot of french people want immigration to be dealt with but as soon as the election comes then marine le pen is there he's the only one that is against you know the immigrants it's all france i mean the debate over immigration is an important debate it's frightening it's just because people are afraid because the jobs are taken away to china they don't know what to do i mean so they will they will find any reason except that nobody voted i mean it's partly a question partly a comment uh isn't it kind of naive thinking that le pen is going to really do anything for the people of africa because at the end of the day it's french corporations that are running the show in so many countries of french africa and whether it's macron or it's uh le pen they're not going to sabotage their country's own corporations that are making money off the backs of you know hard working and honest african people they don't want to change this system that they they're pro macron in general aren't they all the corporations are are in favor of making money and the way they make money is by you know taking advantage of people that are in these developing countries because they you know they they try to sell them with jobs and very basic resources so you know the the people in the country is also you know almost become addicted to thinking that these companies are the saviors and they're not the saviors they're the ones who are holding the people in africa down yeah but but that being said so why would macron or le pen change anything because that's what allows the country of france to have a high standard of living that's a good question but uh at the same time you know uh the relationship from france to africa i mean between frances africa is heavily you know uh uh uh affected by the politics french politics can you know it's not like even in the u.s you know why the u.s goes sometimes to do some regime change if they were just relying on the the big corporate it wouldn't work because you have to subject you have to put the the the country on its needs politically and economically and then come so macron is always preceding the businessman he goes to africa he twists arms and the business men come by them you know so uh i don't know if um marine le pen would change that because you're right it means less money that come to the country but in contrary marine le pen is saying if we do more business here if we do in france if we continue to do like uh if we have factories here if we like there will be less than i mean we'll have more money within the country but i'm you i agree with you that you know and then i will jake up that you know we don't know if she's sincere or not but what is perceived from the folks that it's the same way you know people were seeing donald trump as a savior in africa i swear donald trump in some countries they said we rather have like someone who who calls us you know shit whole countries and he's sincere with what he really believed than the the democrats that come and put like fire across africa if you bring susan rise to congo today they will lapid it they will you know lapid it if you bring clinton and or other you know american politicians at that time to congo and to rwanda and all these people people will just throw stone at them i i asked friends like from congo oh are you happy the democrats are here so our nightmares here because you know uh you know they said we rather have to deal with donald trump we know we know what he thinks we know how he is if he's here for business so so so big but we don't know people that will come with high moral so to speak standards but are the ones who are even crippling these countries you know uh many of i mean it's and it's even françois miterrand who signed you know the you know uh the death of you know tomas sankara somehow it's under uh françois miterrand because françois miterrand was so mad that tomas sankara during a state dinner and book in apaso told him to go back to france and leave the africans alone so i don't know if marim le pen would be a challenge but you know macron definitely and then people told me in africa why don't we just try to see at least what what she got because these people who have been like so-called pro immigrant in favor of helping africa always you know macron now when he talks about africa it's like oh i'd have to save them i had to do that you know people are fed up because in reality macron was there when watara went for third mandate illegal mandate macron is there when the uh the president of togo is there at vitam eternan so to them macron and then and then plus macron is pro big big corporate so so uh the choice i mean could be maybe in favor of marim le pen uh over there and then if marim le pen i mean chase all these guys away from france maybe they will come back to their countries and start a revolution in their own countries because then you know uh because like jacob you're from the king of apaso there's everybody's talking about this guy sankara yes i and also i want to make an announcement i think that we might have a the showing of a documentary about sankara here right robin during africa day during africa day right okay friday the 27th of may friday the 27th of may friday the 27th i think we have to announce that to jacob i am now trying to talk to him about that anyway why don't you tell us a little bit about i think uh we not only sankara but many leaders in the country in the african continent have a strong vision of what the country or the continent should have looked like relying on its own resources and investing for the children of their countries but over time this ideal has faded because outside powers have taken over and imposed their own vision of their own interests and it's true that many international corporations are to blame for the demise of many african countries but i think as natives of this country we should also share part of that responsibility no one no one would come to save you if you don't want to try to save yourself and that's one of the reasons why i always think that even though the international corporation or other countries are pushing and destroying our countries we should also after so many years of suffering after so many years of pain and collapse of wars we should also rethink on how we can rebuild our relationship with our neighbors first but also looking at how we can invest and empower our countries so children from those countries don't have to risk their lives trying to get into safety and have a better life okay so who else has a question occurred again Brad did you have a question who else hurt again hurt uh yeah i mean jacob i you know i think what you're saying you know makes a lot of sense uh the only issue is you know you're talking about people having to make a sacrifice in many situations with not in the short term not being able to feed their kids their husbands or wives whoever you know not being able to have a place to go to work and that is i think often you know the the real difficulty when you know when you ask for a revolution against these multinational companies and then at the same time you know there are quality leaders as there have been historically in africa but then you know like you'll have a patrice lamumba you'll have people like that but then they get knocked off by uh by western interface literally knocked off by by western interests and intelligence agencies that are working along with these big multinationals so then you have a leadership deficit which is very difficult to fill you know when they're literally killing some of these people but what i think that is an issue is those leaders like fidel castro and cuba for all of his faults was acting against um in his case american capitalism in the right but i'm talking about like someone like you're right i mean those people get knocked off and that's what these two men are saying in africa is quite a pattern if you have someone like patrice lamumba as you're talking about they get knocked off and assassinated by the old colonial powers good but we need to understand that nothing will be done in africa until that revolution that caught the throat of the king is done it happened in the u.s if the u.s didn't have their revolution i'm pretty sure they would still be you know held captive by the if the polish didn't have their revolution they would have still been under you know if the french didn't have the revolution so no country should be i'm not saying that we should go for blood and things but it's that's how the nations you know go by the history or the the destiny to put down the feudal system and i can talk about that feudal system because i was part of it in in in i because my grandfather was a very good friend of the french in return he used to have land that would leave you all the way to cental just because he was a good friend of the french i mean that has until the africans find a way to do that revolution they want there will be nothing if tomorrow all the leaders that are backed by by the french or the colonial powers if they are you know taken down there by the people france i swear france the following day will come and say let's renegotiate our thing so you think eric you think they're going to say renegotiate you think they're going to come with the army they will come with the army first but you know and then i hope that our friends here that are so quick to go to war in ukraine even though they are you know among the liberals i mean among the you know the the progressive progressives here that are so quick to go you know to war against russia will then cry like you know because something like this is happening in africa they have already been sending their own their own armies many times in i because i was a reporter for cnn i saw with the you know some help from the cia the french went to beat a guy over there over a local election so we've seen that many places so how do we get that's the difficulties that the drama of africa last time the editor of towards freedom asked me what is the problem what is the enemy of africa i said the enemy of africa is the african leadership first but this african leadership has you know i mean is backed by the colonial power so there's two enemies to fight it's difficult even the us the americans had it easier than what the african has to do the americans at least had one enemy it was you know in england but the africans have not only to fight their own leaders but they have to fight the french armies that are positioned in their country it makes it very difficult i don't see anybody in the us from the liberals to say that all they say okay let's send some clothes let's send some food to africa but none of them is working for these people to do the revolution so that tomorrow their kids won't come here die in the sea to come to america okay but wait a minute so he's saying some really heavy stuff here eric about revolution i doubt if jake would share that opinion i don't know what is your opinion does africa do african countries do the revolution we do need an evolution but i think uh to get to that point we have to have also educated leaders who can maintain and sustain that revolution and that's also what is lacking right now because most of our countries are not investing in what could empower their population and that's the sad part and i don't trust anyone to do that for us if we don't send for ourselves the chinese are coming for the only interest yeah they will bring contracts that are cheap just to gain access to your country and the russia is also the russia are doing the same thing but jake something happened it might be the end of the session oh good point um no sorry folks this is jenna i'm doing the tech and the meeting is still running it looks like just their computer is frozen i'm gonna give i'm gonna call on the phone and see if they realize we can continue the discussion without them or evaluate what they've been saying well um i was gonna bring up a different example um because of my relationship to ruanda and that had to do with um ruanda is not quote liked by the us because it doesn't abide by us um rules and this is since um post the the genocide um so they've had in the global market had to befriend other places and that leads to what um jake up was just saying with the chinese coming in and building roads or or buildings or whatever um and so making those relationships and and and ruanda had done a really good job in the last 20 years of moving forward and moving forward independently and without a lot of strings attached from other countries and yet it can't float i mean all of these impending looming fingers of corporations are huge as kurt brought up um you know countries can't function independently anymore so i'm not clear about this role of revolution because it's not independent of corporate manipulation and the amount of money and maybe robin you can speak to this the amount of money that the military armature industrial complex is making in ukraine right now is just astronomical so yeah um i i i just it's it's not as simple as as um what it was even as much as 20 years ago but i mean some of the metrics that i've read about rwanda specifically is in terms of you know popular i mean the participation of women in government and uh you know other other benchmarks are actually quite impressive in terms of them you know being able to pull that off on their own and uh you know given the post genocide environment uh from everything i've read i mean they've done a relatively admirable job uh without without the assistance of you know many of the um the former colonial powers that are often looked at as saviors right but well i guess what i'm saying is is those players are might not be the previous colonial powers but the global network is out there trying to manipulate a small country because in fact it's doing well yeah i think it's impossible to escape that whether or not there's an internal revolution or or something that happens from from abroad yeah but but the one reason why rwanda is doing well is because um the minerals from the Congo are carried across the border and uh and are sold to the world as if they're Rwandans in other words the Rwandans get the money from the minerals from the Congo that's what i've understood one of the reasons why there's still uh tension between those two countries diane if i might ask you what's your relationship with Rwanda or um yeah so i'm an architect and i've done a lot of community planning um i have friends that were at uvm that returned to Rwanda and in that process i returned with them and helped do several projects there um as returning a returning family they wanted to invest in the country and we sort of both taught how how would a country that's only known for genocide how would two people reinvest in their own country if they were going back so that became um a couple projects and then i got involved in one of the major national parks and doing a master plan um so i've been there like maybe five times but i haven't been there now in maybe six years yeah you know um you know that was probably at the height of it's it's sort of coming into itself um and and at that point you could start to see the pressures of stuff and as robin's bringing up the pressure from the Congo a lot of it is immigration and refugees yeah some of whom have been there for over 20 years within a particular context of of encampment wow wow yeah i mean i know that they've done a lot with respect to trying to attract uh tourists yes from abroad and i don't know if that's considered amongst people in Rwanda a good thing you know people come there to do the uh mountain gorilla hikes you know there's uh supposedly a great genocide museum in Kigali uh and then there's okay nice things to say yeah all right so all of that is true and um the the the push for making the tourism pay the proper dollar and not the cheap dollar they've been really strong at keeping forward um so i do think that they they've and the population is quite educated doesn't mean that everybody is but it's also an example of where there was a culture that co-habitated as a three-part culture almost four-part culture before before colonialism um and and so it historically had multiple ethnicities within the context of the kingdom wow and it recognizes that i i see our hosts are back but i have to leave i have something seven to go can you can you can you can you hear us yes yes all right all right well i think we'd probably have to close for the evening i think it's a long debate about especially for me it's been very uh consciousness rising to work with these with this group of Africans at the association of Africans because you get a different view about i guess imperialism in africa in latin america and in asia a totally different view of the world for instance i wanted to talk tonight too about how the rest of the world really sees the war in ukraine and if you think about it what erica said prior to this is that because of the distrust of the old imperial powers france england the united states belgium because of that distrust many of those countries in africa asia and latin america really are not with the nato powers at all powers at all and see instead um more uh maybe assistance and more uh even friendship from the russians and the chinese so seeing the west in a different way is very important i think for americans and for everyone to recognize that there is a black and brown world who really doesn't think that the way that the europeans or that the us in canada think about things very important to i think for me personally and i think for americans in general to realize that and try to cope with it that we're really not as wonderful as we might have seen to us at one point but anyway i don't you guys yeah maybe i will close by saying that you know uh in france we will see a revolution now we've seen the gilet jaune yellow vest for a while but what is coming up is even worse than what because nothing has been solved yet it seems that the tensions have risen to a level so so much so that even the left wing is voting for marina leban so it's like what is coming up to macron is very very and then it will be the same thing in many places around the west where people are dissolutioned by you know a democracy democracy that was supposed to be bringing you know peace people are dissolutioned because you know they you know life is not only about getting a t-shirt for nine cents at in the supermarkets here life is about seeing a father go to his job and bringing that a good no more goal to back up like the the world economy just like papers that people are printing like even worse than you know banana republics so if we don't pay attention we're going to a big chaos and it's a wake-up call for the western powers what about you jake of them last words i hope uh the upcoming legislative election in france would help the country vote on policies not only uh ideology because uh that's what those who are in need would benefit more from we should not vote for people because they represent a political party but they we should vote for them because they are bringing something on the table that can help us solve our problems and bring the community together and this is also what i'm hoping for the next election that are coming in a few weeks in june right in june yes yeah those would be the parliamentary yeah and i wish we can see what are those parties are suggesting or offering us policy before we add to all the french people add to the polls so at least we can have an informed decision or the french people can have an informed decision okay well thank you okay thank you maybe maybe the technology will be better next time and we might do an update for the parliament elections in france in june thank you all