 Okay. How's everyone doing? I'm still sick from last week, so I'm gonna do my best to trooper on through it. I'll check this out. This is fucking great. This is fucking great. Like a few years ago, and I didn't think about it, and I was like, oh shit, a shitload of old GZLS ones. How fucking cool is that gonna be? What's that for? How goes it? I found this pack, and I was like, oh my god, there's a shitload of GZLS ones in here. Oh, there you go. Cool. But then I remember these are the fake display seeds that I used to put on the counter at Emerald Cup, so if you could snag them, they wouldn't get anything. Damn. Got by myself. You know, like I can't tell you how much it makes me sad sometimes when I find old seeds. Yeah. And then none of them pop. Yeah. It goes from like hope and excitement and joy to like worry to like, oh man. Yeah. I just got this in, and I'm gonna show it off because it's our buddies. This is seriously a nice fucking presentation. Like the terpene kits from Crybaby. Mm-hmm. This is, I mean, that's nice, dude. Yeah. It's like profesh. I mean, it'll be good. He's down. We gotta plan to have him on to talk terpene. I know. I just wanted to show it off for him so people can see before we do the episode. I mean, it's pretty professional. There's all kinds of cards in here that just describe everything. It tells you how to go through it. Lots of tips and tricks. Cool shit, man. So what's interesting about it is like they, you know, they have those kind of things for perfumes. Yeah. And like, I had some friends that were studying, because I live in a wine country, right? Like studying to be someone's. Yeah. And in order to do that, back then, like this is like 18 years ago or something, they would buy these like $1,000 kits. Yeah. And the aromas were there to teach them like what an advanced taster was tasting or smelling when they like, you know, were talking about Merlot or whatever. And they were talking about woodsy notes with hints of raspberry and all that. They had to be able to like learn the language. And so they had like a whole book and all these scents and all this different stuff. And so for terpenes with weed, it's like teaching people how to talk about smell. Yeah. That's a big thing. It's a big thing if you can, if you can do it too. And it's probably like most breeders and weed nerds biggest weak, weak area. Yeah. I know it is for me. I'm not, I'm not a turf expert by any stretch of the imagination. No, definitely not. Neither am I, you know, and neither are a lot of our friends. Yeah. You know, so, I mean, there's an aspect where it's like, it's just, you just lack the language because you don't encounter how to talk about that language anywhere. Yeah. Really, terpenes and like wine sommelier. It's all about using your eyebrows and like, and your eyes to express. Yeah. You know, I mean, it, it's, and then it's all, and then it's all relative to that human being's ability to taste. Yeah. I have, I have a really bad sense of smell. So my taste is really off too. You know, like the whole, the whole shebang sucks. Up upstairs here in this region. Right. Yeah. The whole everything. Everything in this region is sucking. It's sucking. We're slowly climbing up there. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird when I have to do it on this fucking account. Like most people don't know to follow it, even though I said it. So hopefully. Are you still shadow band or whatever on the other one from doing live? I checked it this morning and it was like, nope, you cannot do lives. Oh man. Yeah. Well, it is what it is. It is what it is. I'm used to it by now. But yeah, no, people should, we're going to do a whole episode. I'm not exactly sure when, but we're going to have our, our buddy cry baby on and he has a lot of knowledge and language around aromas, terpenes, scents, what causes smells, what are the components of it. And he'll be able to speak a lot more intelligently than either Matt or I can. Yeah. I think, you know, so that'll be soon, I hope. He was the one that was first telling me to stop calling skunky shit terps. I was like, oops. Yeah. They're like theols and like, but what's interesting about that is even like the, I'm more like rambling for a while, waiting for people to show up. But even what's interesting about, you know, the thing about theols and stuff is how they're volatile. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Terpenes are longer lasting and I would always notice about the old super skunk that I had that the last two or three weeks before harvest and the first month after cutting it, it was just rank. Yeah. But if you kept it long enough, even if, you know, in a nice jar in the dark or whatever, it would eventually just kind of turn into generic green bud. Did you find that the more it kept its moisture content, the longer it lasted as it evaporated? Oh yeah, certainly. Yeah. And it was actually kind of tough because it was one of those nugs that you were like, it was famous for like looking dense, but weighing light. Yeah. Yeah. So you put this thing that you think was actually a huge nug and you're like, oh man, this thing's massive and it's like 2.8 grams. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But it had really good like air to bud ratio so it burned really well. Yeah. It's very similar. You could use snappers of it. Some bud like cushions especially and a lot of this cookie shit, you really have to cure it right to get it to burn well. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, super skunk, you could burn that like pretty quick. Yeah. Because it just had like a good amount of air. It sounds like Denali saved that cut from Panda. Oh, that's good. Yeah. I'm real stoked about that. So we're up over, we're 110 people. Maybe we could start chatting. Yeah. Do you want to answer a few questions first and then maybe it'll get up higher a little bit? Yeah. I haven't even fucking looked to be honest. I've just been bullshitting. Someone just asked about mango haze. I could talk about mango haze. There you go. It's a haze. Mango haze is like a super nice line from Shanti Baba and Neville. It's a NL5 haze by Skunk haze. It's a sister to Super Silver haze. And it uses this famous cut called the 122 or the mango, which is like my favorite NL5 haze cut. And it's still alive over there, I think. I think it's still Sholden coffee shops. And Shanti has it, apparently. Yeah. But yeah, it's a little bit more hazy. It's a little like it's got a little bit more of the flavors that I like. It's got less terpenaline than Super Silver haze. It doesn't tend to yield as much. But it's a super nice plant. And I think it's likely one of the ones where he still has the right parents. Yeah. I can't say, nobody can say for sure. But I think people still find really nice plants in that line. Yeah, they do. There is a clone only mango haze, too, I believe. I don't know if it's from the same seed line, but I know Miami Mango has that one. And it's like a terpenaline in mango. It's one of my favorites. I've seen some tests on it. And it's terpene content. It's pretty off the charts. It's pretty high. And yeah, so that's mango haze. Mango haze and Super Silver and Neville's haze are kind of like the final three hazes that came out at the end of one whole era. So that's starting at the end, not the beginning. But let's see, skunk haze. A lot of people in Europe don't like the skunk haze as quite as much because they felt the skunk aspects kind of overpowered the haze. Like the more delicate haze aspects that they liked. That's why they were always kind of looking for like bland indicators to cross it to. Yeah. To allow, you know, they kind of wanted like very little terp cuts to blend it to to see if the haze terps would come through. So anyway, I don't know. We're going to chat about haze tonight, which is a super controversial subject. So a disclaimer, this is just kind of like our opinion on it and like what we see. Yeah. In the forum days, when things got started, some of the longest running threads ever were arguments between all these old timers over haze. On Cannabis World, on Overgrow, probably on IC Mag, it would just go, sometimes it would go into the hundreds of pages of people battling back and forth over what was the real haze story. One of my good friends over on Mr. Nice did probably what I think was the best treatise on haze, like overview on haze during that time before anybody else had really been able to track down anyone to talk to and my friend Big Herb off Mr. Nice. I see there's someone with that name in here but I don't think it's the same dude. It would be awesome if I remember him on Mr. Nice for sure. Herb was a cool dude. I haven't seen him in a long time though. I don't know if he's still hanging around or what the deal is. I think it's still up on Mr. Nice and for the most part, I know it's been considered one of the more accurate histories on it. But there was some stuff we dug up in the past few years. I know Bodey found a book about Santa Cruz or written in Santa Cruz and Santa Cruz history and it actually mentions a few of them by name and it's one of the first things we found where there were other names in it. Full names. There's an aspect where Hayes has a history dating back to the late 60s, early 70s. So it's hard enough to decipher stuff that happened 15 or 20 years ago, much less 40. So there's a lot of, forgive me, hazy stuff around the origins of it and on those threads there's tons of arguing that's gone on. There's tons of arguing and Sam Skunkman has his version and he's posted under different names about things. He claims to have been a neighbor to those guys. But I think what's fairly well accepted is it started out as Colombian by Colombian. Yeah. I think we could start there. It was Colombian by Colombian from Importweed and they grew it in greenhouses in Santa Cruz and areas that were mild like that. Because you needed those mild temperatures in order to take it till December or January or whatever the hell it was that they pulled it down. They hadn't figured out depths or anything like that yet and so it got pretty famous. Matt has a poster somewhere of it. It got early on, got named and got kind of legendary. It was sold high end in New York, I believe, for quite a bit at the time. It was considered like the super kind of sewer weed, right? Yeah. I would say all this is pretty standard and not argued about that much. Yeah, that much is considered to be correct, I think. That much is considered. Once you get into who's responsible for what and what happened when and how and all that, that's where it gets kind of dicey. But basically what seems like, and there's a lot of stuff where you read online where it'll talk about like it's a Colombian by Indian by Thai by Mexican. Sam swears that it's colo by colo. Yeah. And all that stuff was added way later and isn't really part of it. I remember he said the Indian was added way later, if at all. I don't remember. Was that his claim or not? I think he said that the Indian was in there, but it was added as a separate hybrid he offered and never got mixed in with the core amount of haze. So we always add separate haze. So when it really boils down to it or whatever, it just seems like haze was a mix of Colombian strains or whatever that they got out of seeds from import and they got lucky. And admittedly it doesn't seem like they knew what the hell they were doing. And it got pretty famous. And so there's a lot of stories and a lot of mystery between late 60s and mid 80s. There's stories out of Santa Cruz. There's a series of brothers. They wrote some stuff in high top. There's all these various things. And they've been debated ad nauseam other places. Maybe we don't need to delve into that part because you can find that everywhere. But what is part of it is that what's indisputable is that in 84s or so, Sam Scumpman brought it to Holland. So these guys grew haze. It got famous. They were growing it in Santa Cruz area. It was a mix of sativas, mostly Colombian. It was getting sold in New York. And then at some point, Sam took a version of it to Holland. Yes. And as far as we can tell, he gave it to three people, right? Yeah. He gave it to Positronix, who he actually worked with. And he gave it to Carell from Super Sativa Seed Club that Carell talked about when we interviewed him. And he gave it to Neville. Yeah. And all three of those guys made hybrids with it and sold seeds from that. And pretty much all haze that we can really trace comes from either those three people or stock that Sam made himself in Amsterdam later. Yeah. Off-seeds he kept for himself. And we really don't have any verified American haze, do we? Yeah. I mean, we have the originator that we all agree. I think everybody agrees that Lund was a part of it. Debatable. The lady, Kathy? Yeah. It's debatable. I'm just going to say first name since it doesn't really, neither here nor there. But there is one guy who keeps all the posters and, as he explained it to me, was that the posters were hung up in the dealer's houses that were verified legit haze dealers. And that's kind of how they verified if they were getting real haze or not. If that poster was in their room, then they knew that they were getting legit haze there. So that's how he told it. Now, if it's true or not, I don't know, but he seems to have the lion's share of the original posters and he got them somehow. Yeah. Somehow. Yeah. So, you know, and then like a lot of those things, like not everybody involved probably has told their story publicly by any means. And so, and you know, there's a few people that are loud about it that insist they know what's going on. But what we know is it made it there. Yeah. It made it to Amsterdam. And everybody's, all the stuff that made haze famous sort of came from Amsterdam back to America. Yeah. I would say. Yeah. Wouldn't you? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like haze popped up here and kept rocking and everybody's rocking that cut from here. So, what we don't know is it seems like, you know, when we interviewed Carell from Super Centiva Seed Club, he gave us a pretty interesting tidbit in that Sam only, he didn't think Sam had that many seeds of it because he only gave him like 10. Yeah. And he thought that he only gave Neville some. Yeah. Neville disputes that, but be that as it may, you know, Neville ended up probably making the most famous hybrids with it by far. Yeah. By far. You could say that, you know. Yeah. But Positronics had it as well, original, and so did Super Centiva Seed Club. Yeah. They all had originals. And it seems like when you read the stories about what Neville and all the rest of them did, is that they were kind of like us growing, you know, it's kind of like the sour that, you know, a lot of the starting stories, it was like a bunch of kids that were young that didn't know what the fuck they were doing at all. And they made a bunch of rookie mistakes. Yeah. Because they weren't used to growing something that took 22 weeks or whatever and was a jungle plant. And, you know, and it seems like a number of them got lost. Yeah. By everybody. Accidents didn't, you know, mom got killed. They didn't think it was worth much. It took, you know, 25 weeks and never finished, you know, that kind of thing. And so they didn't realize what kind of gold they had. I don't know. Not at the time. That's so much hindsight needed for that. Yeah. They had no idea. So Neville, Neville had, you know, a few males and a few females that he burned through and didn't keep before he, you know, he ended up, I mean, he ended up only by 1990. He only had one plant that had lived. Yeah. You know, and so someone keeps asking, did Sam get invited? Sam's never wanted to come on the show. So, you know, I mean, to be honest, that's why I said it first. Like if you want to hear Sam's opinion about it there, you could go hunt on overgrow, you know, archives or something or anything like that. Like he's posted a ton on his opinion about it. There's not a shortage of Sam's written history. That's why we didn't focus on it for that long, you know. He disagreed with me on the Kathy part. So he said that the granddaddy Mike was incorrect on that. You know, that's what he said and it might be true, you know. So yeah, that's what little I know from him after I told the story the last time based on granddaddy Mike. That's the one thing that he added. He said it was very good, but that's not correct. So from Sam's... The reason why we kind of glossed over that part is that it's the hardest part to talk about because it's the least documented. Yeah. You know, and it's a bunch of history from a bunch of people doing some black market illegal shit in America. Yeah. All trying to stay under the radar. And as far as the, you know, the haze goes, everybody knows haze. What we just mentioned, positronics, Neville's stuff and super sativa seed club and Sam are the sources. Yeah. That all the haze that we talk about now descends from. Yeah. That's where that's where it all comes from. It's either hybrids they made or descendants of it or whatever. And all the companies like the Flying Dutchman or any of these different groups, seedsmen that sold pure haze. I believe they were all just buying kilos wholesale from Sam. Yeah. I don't know. I'd love to be able to ask him for sure, but it sounds like he was doing a lot of reselling like that. Yeah. I mean, he basically, what it sounds like is to not get in trouble. He didn't sell directly to anyone outside of Holland because seed sales within Holland were legal. Yeah. So he was willing to wholesale, but he wasn't willing to retail. Yeah. So he ended up working through positronics. He ended up, I mean, that's how, I mean, you know, it's funny when people talk about all this like rare, skunk one that used to exist. And we asked Carell about it. He just laughed and he said, everyone gets skunk one from, you know, buying bags of seed from Sam Stuckman. Yeah. Yeah. That's where you got your skunk one. Yeah. Right. Santa Cruz original haze. But getting back to haze, it's, someone asked about the A seed haze related to Santa Cruz original haze. I was just going to say that's, that's why it wasn't one who was British. So I really highly doubt it was sourced via Santa Cruz. It's just my, my theory on it. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think they sourced it through posi. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know who I know. I know Tom Hills haze line was positronic. Yeah. His was, and it was, his was very different from the old timer haze. Yeah. So, you know, all yeah, all Tom Hills work and stuff and the, and the deep chunk hybrids and all that stuff about positronics. They, that was all from, for a while there Sam worked with on some fashion at posi. Yeah. Helping them breed and do, working with Warner and stuff like that and helping them breed different stuff and, and working lines and positronics was just one of those early seed companies. You know, when Sam first moved to Amsterdam, he was looking for connections, people to sell seeds to and people to work with. Yeah. And he kind of ended up dealing with everyone in town, but that was only like a few dudes. Yeah. That was really like ongoing then or whatever. Right. And positronics also like a lot of people don't know this part, but the positronics haze 19 skunk one is what gave birth and is the same thing as the metal haze that I think Cody just released F threes of. So if you do want like a worked version of that line, that's a very good way to get it. So I don't know. I'd never heard numbers until the Corel interview, but Corel swore that like posi, him, Neville, they only got like a handful like 10 seeds each. Yeah. Yeah. And then for some, I heard that too. And then, and then Sam held the rest back that he had for himself to make his own open pollination that he did later. Yeah. But I, you know, I'd never heard that before. But then, you know, Corel was there and we weren't. So exactly. Yeah. You know, Neville is dead now, but he claims he got big bags of old ass seed, but only got, you know, eight or 10 of them to pop out of the entire thing. Yeah. You know, you know, and so anyway, they, you know, he comes in mid 80s or whatever he comes here and he comes, he comes from California to Holland and he sells haze seeds to multiple different people and then starts working in himself. And that was the start of haze becoming famous. Yeah. And it really didn't, at first, even like the very first thing that, that Neville offered was actually in Northern Lights crossed to a female haze he had. Yeah. That was year one. So there was like this haze bee that was a girl and it was NL1 haze bee. And then the next year he came out with NL5 haze. I didn't even know that. I don't think I knew that part. About the bee girl? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you go look in the, in the 88 catalog, he has, I think it's actually an NL, NL1 by Ruderalis, and he crossed it to haze bee and he talks about it being female because he was like trying to, to like tame the, the crazy lead time to flower it. Yeah. Right. Someone's calling you out. Someone's saying you're incorrect. How sure are you? About what? I don't know. I don't know. How sure? Am I on it? I don't know. I mean, we can, I got, I got the catalogs around here, but he, the, the first two hybrids he really, he, he really tried to make was, he crossed it to Maple Leaf, Afghan tea, and he crossed it to NL5 haze. Okay. And NL5 haze he, he, he released the other one. I don't think he released to the public, but he gave to friends or whatnot. Is a big herb. Is this the big herb from Mr. Nice forums? Oh, okay. There you go. What's that herb? Long time no see, dude. Oh man. That's so cool. I've read so many year threads on Mr. Nice. I've been looking for, I've been actually looking for big herb for quite a while. That's cool to see you again. I'm glad you showed up. Yeah. So, I mean, he, you know, one of the cool things about Mr. Nice is that there was a time in oh, oh nine, you know, 2010 or something where Neville was very active on there. Yeah. And a ton of knowledge about what happened dropped both publicly and post that he made and via DM and communications with various people that were active at the time. Yeah. On Mr. Nice forums and big herb was definitely one of those guys that was active in communication. And like Matt said, he had a great write-up on the history of it. Yeah. That you can probably still go read. Yeah. Herb was around when, when, when Neville came back and I started getting fucking around with him and trying to work the Bubba's and all that shit. And it kind of petered off on the Mr. Nice forums after that. It really, really took a dive after all that shit. Yeah. So somebody's asked a question, which I'll answer just because it ties in. They were asking, did Neville have both an A and a C male and did he use them to breed in various things? So what it sounds like is that Neville ended up with two guys, right? Yeah. And the A and the C, right? And it was easier to use the males because it was easier to collect pollen and then dust a bunch of Indica females at the appropriate time than it was to try to deal with the females, I guess. So for lack of a better way, he ended up with a couple boys. And the A, he lost in 1989. He did a huge seed increase and put all of his best Indica's in there, like the G13 and the NL5 and a bunch of different stuff. And then him and his workers forgot to keep a backup in the bedroom. Yeah. So he bloomed every A male and they all died and he lost it. So after that... He doesn't so often keep in big libraries, too. So he never sold any commercial, he never sold any commercial amounts of haze. Yeah. He popped them himself and gave out various phenos of it, which we'll get to in a little bit. And he gave some private amounts of seed to friends, other breeders, people early on, you know, what not, but it was never sold commercially. So everything you ever could buy commercially was the C dead. So all NL5 haze that you could buy from the seed bank or from Sensei Seeds was the C dead. Right? So that's kind of like what everybody's got. Yeah, I'd bring Big Herb on the live. I don't know if he's ready to just pop on on camera all of a sudden, but he's more than welcome to come on. No, but we'll definitely reach out to you after the show. He's a wealth of knowledge. Yeah. And would be cool to add to things. You know, so Neville had an NL5 haze was probably the most famous. It's probably what put haze on the map to be perfectly honest. Yeah. And what I mean by that is that it just made it a permanent part of cannabis lore. Yeah, it inundated the United States. It did. And he, you know, in 89 and 90, the pictures on the front of his catalog were an NL5 haze A. Yeah. Huge running colas, big bud, you know, all that. And it was that and super skunk ended up being him and Sensey's best selling seed lines. So NL5 haze kind of changed the game. And it was super potent. And it's probably, I've said it on shows with Matt before in my opinion, it's probably the most successful hybrid ever made. I wonder if it's because like the line was kicking out more keepers, you know, things that people wanted, or just because so many were sold, you were eventually going to find a keeper because it wasn't super easy to find keepers and all those packs, was it? I never found a fucking keeper. Yeah. And I bought, I definitely, I bought plenty of packs. Yeah. Not plenty, but I mean, I probably bought seven or eight packs. Yeah. In the, in the mid nineties. But then other people from that same year and same era as me, there's things that are still traded today that were found right around then. Yeah. So it's just the, it's just the mystery of seeds. You can find it in one and you might not find it in 200. Yeah. In a way, you know, but it seems like that, that strain was consistent from somewhere to 89 to the mid nineties. Yeah. Neville says they lost the NL5 mom before he left Sensi, which was in 95, 96. Yeah. But, and basically like all the, all the haze that we know of, all the phenos that have been kept, all seem to trace back to that late eighties through mid nineties era. Yeah. And there's a bunch. Yeah. And there's a fucking bunch of them. Mm-hmm. Right. There's a shit load. I mean, there's a bunch of them. And some that may not even be identified as NL5 haze, like bull rider might be NL5 haze based, you know. Yeah. Old Betsy. Yeah. Exactly. The sister of bull rider or whatever. Yeah. So what ends up happening is that maybe we can like, you know, that's interesting big herb because we've always wondered, there's been a rumor that the Cuban black could have been from gifted seeds to someone that Neville knew, you know, and it could be, it could have been a in that case. But I've heard that rumor too. I don't know if it's true. But, I poo poo the Cuban black. I don't give a fuck what anyone says. Like the, at least the clones circulating right now in the community because I know exactly who brought it in and that dude kept fucking lying about everything he had. So I think it's very, I'm very skeptic-able, skeptic-able with what, with what goes around today as a Cuban black haze. It might be some kind of NL5 haze, but it is not the original. I know where it came from. So what, you know, I mean we can, you know, we're bouncing around and I apologize because it's like a multi-decade story or whatever. But basically, and we can dive into different parts at different times, but basically between, you know, 89 and 95 or so, there's probably like 10 or 15 elites, maybe a few more, that have survived from that era that are all named cuts and still held on to. Yeah. Of mostly NL5 haze, whether it uses the A dad or the C dad, but some G13 haze, some hash plant haze, various different things. Yeah. You know. I've only ever had the hash plant haze and hybrids. It is pretty good. They, so basically, yeah, Neville basically crossed it to like all of his best Indicus. Yeah. So it got crossed the hash plant, it got crossed the G13, it got crossed the NL5, it got crossed the NL1. Anything that he had that was an Indica that he thought was a bomb clone. Yeah. Got, you know, so that's kind of where like people are talking, Piff isn't one thing all this. We'll get to that in a second. But basically what happened is, is that there's a whole series we can talk about of famous clones in Europe that Neville hunted and found and then passed out to friends. Yeah. And those got, those got held in like, some people call them the Southern, the, I almost said Southern Humble, the Southern Holland, the South Holland crew. Yeah. Yeah. South Holland crew. And they've been sold in coffee shops for decades. Yeah. When I, when I first went, you know, to coffee shops in, in Amsterdam, you could get NL5 hay, you could get A5, you could get C5, you could get G13, you could get hash plant haze. Basically every, every trip I went somewhere had, you know, various versions of it. Yeah. So they were sold and a lot of people came to Holland to smoke those hazes. So there was these famous cuts and there's a lot of them that are 30 years old now or whatever that got, that got saved in Europe and there's like a whole map to that. And then at the same time, there was a bunch of people that were trading seeds with Neville and buying a bunch of Neville seeds. And it seems like a combination of New York and Florida, right? It blew up and got super popular. Yeah. And there was markets for it. A lot of the people in Florida were actually sending it to New York because it blew up in New York and got a top dollar. And there's rumors that it's been kind of a thing in New York since the 70s. Yeah. Like there's always been a high-end clientele of like Wall Street brokers, musicians, artists, connected people that were willing to drop big money for haze. Yeah. As long as I've been a smoker, you could go to New York and find haze. Yeah. I wonder why that is. It just caught on and never, I don't know, I wonder why Dominican crews picked up on it in New York. I wonder why certain ethnic groups just navigated to that specific type. Is it that New Yorkers just tend to like more speedy weed? I don't know. I mean, in this case, the best haze in the world, in my opinion, is in Amsterdam and New York and Florida. Yeah. The West Coast gets jacked. Literally, we get jacked in super silver haze. We get a lot of hybrids of that kind of thing. And those are more like the polyhybrids that came later. Yeah. Right? On the East Coast, they have a bunch of F1s. And S1s of F1s. And people are going to talk about it. People talk about names like Heights Hays, Downtown Brown, Piff, Church, Cuban Black. It seems like there was groups of Dominicans and groups of Cubans that had it on lockdown. Yeah. You know, people call it block work because they could get it on the block. There was green haze. There was brown haze. Right? Yeah. And it's really hard, if you're not from there, to know all the different, you know, are they phenos? Are they the same thing grown different ways? Are they called different hybrid names? I mean, I talked to some people that were in the know. And I used to think that it was like, you know, half a dozen names from the same couple cuts. Yeah. But it turns out that in the 30 years that haze has been popular in New York and Florida, there's a fucking plethora. Yeah. There's even, there's like Pude, that's another one. I always wondered what that stood for. This is a weird word. Yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of nicknames and stuff. And so, what's crazy about the haze is that the, and don't take any offense to this, anyone, Cubans and the Dominicans and whoever that were running it, they viewed it very much so as a business. Yeah. And they held that shit fucking tight. They weren't into, into sharing it with trading. They had like a market. Yeah. And their market was good and they were into it. And there's dudes that I've talked to that like their entire career basically just grown haze. Yeah. You know, that's all they needed to do was grow haze, get it to New York, boom, they're good. Right? So they don't share that shit. So, but what's interesting about that is like, unlike a lot of like random cuts you get like, where you kind of have to get the cut, a lot of those dudes, once they realized they couldn't get the real cut, they just went and bought beans, because you can still buy the wine. Yeah. And you buy, you know, and it's like, imagine if your buddies are selling it for a ton of money, you might go to Amsterdam and buy a hundred seeds. Yeah. And come back and pop a bunch and then all of a sudden you've got the, you know, I've got, I've got the piff. Yeah. It's Cuban black. You know, they called it my experience. And this is, this is a, I remember a big herb. I was trying to push a bunch of these off on him because I knew like, no one wanted them. But when I got the piff, the Dominicans asked me not to release it pure. That was the only request they had, don't release it pure. And I wasn't going to fucking snub that, you know, like, I didn't want to piss anyone off. So I never did, but I really regret it. Yeah. I mean, they have a, there's a market. It could probably bring on maybe in the future that know a lot more about the various names and origins of the various different Hayes things from New York. I just wanted to bring it up in general that there's a bunch of cuts that get passed around in Florida and New York more, but Florida too and a bunch in Holland. And between those two areas, that's like 15 different cuts. Yeah. At least a bunch. So it's probably the line that has the, we're lucky if one or two phenos of any famous thing survives from the nineties to today. Yeah. Right? Can you think of any other line from that era that has as many cuts as NL5 Hayes does that still float around? Not even close, man. We're still trying to find a single touch of a lot of these lines, you know? Yeah. So, you know, and so, you know, some of this stuff, I'm talking about gold or brown Hayes or whatever. In my opinion, and I've seen it in like Chem 4 and I've seen it in various strains, you know, certain strains just when they're around oxygen, they sort of cure a little bit brown. Yeah. I used to get, remember like the real cherry pie when it was growing would be like deep purple and would look all crazy. Mm-hmm. When I did it in depths and then I dry it and three weeks later it would, the purple would turn a little light brown. I hated that about like blackberries, too. Like that beautiful magenta red as it dries. It turns just as nasty. It turns brown and some of those Hayes crosses turn brown as they dry. It's the Colombian influence, I believe. And so it might be terpies all get out and fresh and smell delicious and someone looks at it and they're like, this shit's old. Yeah. You have old weed, you know? So it's just like it's a, it's a, you know, I mean, even like we, I was, we were talking about it. I was talking about it earlier today, but I have a buddy who made the chocolate top, the chocolate diesel. Yeah. Right? And it's, and that stuff, it's basically a chocolate tie by dog, by sour diesel. Yeah. And it was phenomenal and we had it for a long time and no one wanted to ever buy it because it cured a light brown. Yeah. Because the chocolate part wasn't so much it smelled like chocolate. It was that the tie was brown. Yeah. And, and, like Pharrell said, back in the day, they wanted that brown. Yeah. But that brown was, it was good brown. It was fresh. It wasn't like it was fucked up, but it just, a little yellow, little brown, little off colors. Yeah. But what's crazy about haze is that that is like death on the West Coast. Right? Yeah. Brown, any kind of brown color at all. And it's like doom. And I can see people in the comments or whatever talking about all the uptown browns, my favorite. Yeah. That's the one. You know? So, there's a bunch of stuff like that where I can name them real quick. When we talk about A or C, it's just basically like a Holland shorthand for which, which haze mail of Neville's was used. Yeah. Right? So there's at least three C-fives that float around Holland that are still alive for sure. Yeah. One of them is the, is called the one. And that's the mom super silver haze. And it's floats around. It's actually in America right now. And it's what people, some people, if you see people posting in America of C-5, it's that kind. Okay. So the C-5 cut in America is the one. The C-5 cut in America is the, it's like the terpenaline bomb. Yes. It's what made super silver haze. So terpenaline dominant. Yeah. You know? And, you know, and so it, it's, it's being passed around. It made it over the, it's being super potent weed. It just, you have to be able to handle terpenaline. Yeah. If you don't like terpenaline, it's going to be a real problem. I smoke terpenaline all day. And, and so there's like three C-5s. The final C-5 was my favorite. I used to smoke it over there in Amsterdam. It's the, they call it the one 22 or the mango. And it's the mom of mango haze. And it just, it has more of that mercy. I don't forget, I forget what the terp is that leads to mangoes. I don't know. But it smells like ripe mangoes. And it's got a great high. Yeah. C-5 isn't SSH. C-5 is the mom of SSH. Someone just said. So, so then there's a, there's three cuts of C-5 at least over there. There's two cuts of A-5, they say. There's a G13A. There's a G13C. There's a hash plant by C. I might be missing a couple. I don't know. Yeah. But there's a bunch of them over there. And, and then most of the ones in America are, are, you know, NL-5 prostacy. Yeah. Even, I should mention too, that Neville gave Soma of Soma seeds, some G13A. And he took a male of that. And all of Soma's, Sativa and hazee lines are based off that, that male that he kept from some G13A seeds. That he got. And so what it seems like, Neville was pretty open about this on, on the, on the forums over there, was haze does not like being crossed to itself. No. Yeah. At all. And what becomes hard is, especially with the C, the more you cross haze to itself, Neville called it cat piss. We would probably, we would probably call it, terpenaline. Terpenaline. But, but the more you cross it, you get terpenaline dominant, and then only rarely do others, any kind of, and that's what everybody thinks of, is Jack, Jack Terps, Trainwreck Terps. Yep. Super silver haze, Super silver haze Terps. That kind of stuff tends to dominate. So, what it seems like is, the best ones, the ones that everybody keeps are the F ones. Yeah. Of haze to some Indica. And the polyhybrids, like super silver haze, mango haze, Jack for air, that kind of thing, they don't seem to be as, people don't seem to have keepers of those the same way. Not that there's not cuts of them that don't float around, it might be nice. Yeah. But we should mention too, because it's fucking, it's kind of like a ramble or whatever, but most of these things are, they're one of the most unique things about haze is that, most of the good ones take between 12 and 16 weeks. Yeah. A long time. A long time. A long time. Like I think the Cuban Blacks and a lot of the ones in New York, 90 to 100 days is a pretty common rate to take those ones. The dog shit, which is about the only west coast one that's any good. Two. That one's 12, 13 weeks. Easy. Yeah. You know, all the stuff from Europe, you know, is all 15, 16 weeks. Yeah. You know, and so that was one of the things that Neville and Chauncey and all those guys that were fucking around with it, one of their criteria was, they didn't want anything longer than 16 weeks. Yeah. Because it was impractical, because asking someone to flower something for four months is already impractical. Yeah, especially to a money-making thing. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so there's an aspect where it's like, you know, they cut it off. They wanted 14 to 16 weeks, you know, and it seems like the earliest good ones are more like 12 and 13. Yeah. You know? But 14 to 16 seems to be the most common range that a lot of them fall into. I was a big fan of the Old Sog Super Silver Haze. That was one of my favorites that ran pretty quick and was mostly skump one dominant. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean those, you know, and then the Mango Haze were both two different NL5 Haze moms crossed to the same skunk Haze dad. Yeah. Right? So the skunk helped like throw, especially in the Super Silver, it helped it throw bigger, longer, thicker colas. Yeah. And it could shorten up the time a whole bunch. In my opinion. Yeah. You know? And so, you know, they, so then it just became, going back, it just became fucking famous. Yeah. Everybody had Haze. And all these seed companies wanted to obscure exactly how they got Haze, but Haze just became, Haze for a while was sort of shorthand for Sativa. Yeah. It was the Sativa. Right? Yeah. And, you know, and it got famous in America. It got famous over there. It was all these various different things. And it seems like, you know, like I said, the F1s seem to be a lot better than the polyhybrids. Yeah. Now that the polyhybrids weren't nice. I've grown nice super silver Haze. I've had keepers of mango Haze I loved. Mm-hmm. But it seems like all the most favorite ones are F1. Yeah. So some type of Afghani or Paki crossed the Haze. Crossed the Haze. Very, two very different things slapped together. And then you see what they get. Yeah. And even with those things crossed to it, still the keepers were 14, 16 weeks. Yeah. So essentially like you're taking some Colombian and like shortening it from 20 to 24 to 14 to 16. I've seen Colombian black go up to 26. Yeah. That's fucking insane. Yeah. You know, and so people are talking about PIF. PIF is just, you know, PIF is a catch-all term. Yeah. For, it's one of the nicknames to Haze. Yeah. You know, people can argue, I'm not going to sit there and say that I have some encyclopedic knowledge of how all the New York Haze terms came about. Yeah. But it got a bunch of, it was popular enough for long enough that it has a bunch of nicknames. Right? Yeah. I said it before, Heights Haze, Uptown Brown, Cuban Black, Blackwork, Yeah. PIF, Church, Frankie, Short for frankincense, you know, all that, all that different types of stuff. Oh boy, and there said Pude scans for pure. I didn't know that's what it meant. I don't know if that's Colombian for pure or Dominican for pure. They had a lot of nicknames. Yeah. You know, and probably just like Cush and just like Cook, just like everything else that got popular. People got bagged seeds. People got lines from Amsterdam still and pop their own thing and added their own name to it because they're trying to cash in on the thing. So it's really hard to say, but for rarely, you know, that line was available for seven or eight years in seed form. Okay. I have an idea. I have an idea for a little game we can play. I'm going to name a few different haze cuts and you're going to say pass or smoke. Oh, and you're going to be passing it to an idiot or you're going to smoke it yourself. Okay. Indeed. Okay. A5. Smoke. Smoke. Okay. C5. Smoke. Okay. I knew you'd go for both of them. Dog shit. Definitely smoke. Have you smoked old Betsy? No. No. Haven't tried it. No bull rider to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't even smoked for a bull rider that I know of. You know, like it just wasn't, it had already died out by the time I got San Diego. Let's see here. I'm trying to think of some, some good haze cuts that you've tried. Cali missed. Smoke. There's nothing you're not going to smoke that has haze in it now that I think about it. I don't think I could name one. Could you? I could. Yeah. I would. There's, there's not really a Jack I've seen that I wished I had a jar on my, on my, on my, on my shelf there. Wow. So Jack, you're going to pass on a Jack. Jack, I would pass on the Jack. Or pass on Jack. Jack to me is like huge yielding skunk one on a haze frame. Yeah. You know, and it's like just, I don't know. It, like the type of terpenaline that Jack is, is not my favorite. It's more like, it doesn't taste good to me. You know, and people love it, you know, and people loved it because they got two, three pounds of light with it and they crushed it in depths in greenhouses and they basically grew the shit out of it until the buyers were like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. How about in Asia? Have you tried Amnesia yet? Amnesia is some water down shit. I thought it was, it's one of my favorites. Really? It is one of my favorites by far because it's so like perfumey, fruity, like it's just nice, man. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I like the, I like the church, the frankincense, the mercene. Yeah. I can't, I'm not a terpenaline hater by any means. Like I said, like I said, C5 is a terpenaline bomb. Yeah. But there's a difference to me between terpenaline that has a little bit of sweetness or creaminess behind it. And like, I just sprayed my mouth with like floor cleaner. Yeah. That's true. And that, that terpenaline, you know, it's like, and I think for Jack and stuff like that, there was just a bunch of badly grown Jack and it over, just like trainwreck, you know, it overwhelms people. Yeah. You know, like that Durban, that Durban from Colorado or whatever, that one's a terpenaline bomb too. Sure is. You know, and super terpenaline. And you know, it's like, I like, there's all kinds of weed I smoke. I'm not a hater on it. Yeah. But when I, when I, the interesting part to me is, it's not so much, the only thing I can think of that's like really strong terpenaline that I love the high. Yeah. Is the C5. Interesting. I don't know about that. What about that? Does it through you? You know, I don't know why that is, but, you know, but they, you know, what's cool about it is that, because it made money in coffee shops for so long and still does, it's still hoarded over there. Yeah. And people accuse us of supporting, that shit is legit hoarded. People are, so many people put stipulations on those fucking cuts. I mean, like, there are certain seed lines like me and Caleb can never release. No, because they'll be, they'll be super pissed off and people will be angry and it's like, and you know, it's been monetized over there for so long and then sold in coffee shops and if you got the cuts, you had to give kickbacks to the dudes and it was like very, so those things, it's like, and they don't give a fuck. They don't want to trade you for shit. They have what they have and they don't, so that's like the ultimate hoarding because honestly, they didn't slip out until Neville died. Yeah. Yeah. The entire time that he was alive, that shit was on lockdown with those guys. Yep. Right? Yep. And then two, only two of those cuts, maybe more, but only, you know, but yeah, I love, I love that one of the sources for those cuts, I was sent a list with those on me. I was like, I want those two and the dude didn't even know what the fuck they were till I told him what they were and that was the biggest mistake I ever made. I don't, I don't like to dick people and be like, you know, I wanted, I'd like to trade equal value so even if they find out later, it's rare, it's a worth, but yeah. I mean, the hard part is, the hard part is that, you know, these things would never be popular. Okay? No. You really have to, you really have to like the high. Yeah. Because if you take, you should know what you're growing too, because I see a lot of people asking about the A5S ones and stuff. Like, that's not going to be a super, like, marketable, commercial crop nowadays that would sell really well. I think people have this like fantasized idea because you're saying it's dank and they respect your word. They don't understand what this definition of dank would look like. It's dank and ugly. It is fudgy. Like I mentioned before, like, people were talking on the thing about how much they love the uptown brown. Yeah. You couldn't sell uptown brown in California? No fucking way. No way. Don't get me wrong. Even if I agree with you and I say that weed's amazing, it still wouldn't sell here. Yeah. It just couldn't. And like, if you see the pictures there's no resin production anywhere on any leaf for miles. No. And you just look at it and be like, fuck, that dude's subset growing, but really, it's the plan. It's ugly. Yeah. But it works. You know? And so you really have to be into the high. So it's like, like all these dutch, you're like trying to hoard it like Americans are going to like fuck with their money. Yeah. Yeah. When you really have to be a consumer, like a lover of cannabis because it takes four months. So you have to plan the rest of your shit. Yeah. And you got to keep it happy and healthy and bug free and all the various issues free that long. And it don't wash. Yeah. And then, you know, and then you get some great weed, you know? And so, so it's not, you know, but in Holland, it's like all my first experiences with smoking, all those ones were all Holland grown. Yeah. And maybe I could tell a story that people, you know, all this room in Holland that was growing Neville's Hayes and C5 and then 122. Right? And so I go into this room and it was one of, I only met Neville a couple of times, but it was one of his partners. Okay. And so I go into this room and it's like, there's like one gallon pots on the ground. Okay. With those Gro-Dan, like, Rockwell croutons. Yeah. You know, like the little croutons, the croutons on the squares, right? Yeah. There's one gallon pots with these stems coming out of them that were like that big. And those stems went six, seven feet up in the air. Yeah. Okay. Bare. Right. And so imagine this little one gallon pot with this stem that's like half as wide as the pot. Yeah. Going six feet straight up and then branches everywhere and like two or three layers of, of netting. Yeah. I forgot to tell you, I had a conversation with Seattle Greg the other day and he said when he went into Neville's grow room, he said when he first got there, Neville was growing rockwool slabs on the ground. On the ground, yeah. And they had drains in there or whatever else and they would be on the slowest constant drip ever, you know? But it was like, you're looking at literally these, they were probably 10, 12, 12 foot of paw plants, that was where the weed was and it started at above, I'm 6'3", it started above my head. That's fucking crazy. Like I walked in and all the netting was above my head and there's these tiny ass little pots on slow drip and just like a sea of spears above your head. How big was the ceiling? How tall were the ceilings? They were pretty tall. They were like 14 feet or something like that. Yeah, they had to be. I mean, if the fucking canopy starts at the top of your head, that's crazy. The canopy started about 7 feet. It was about half a foot above my head and from 7 to 10 feet was where most of the weed was and then the lights were hanging off the ceiling and it was like 6 feet. Like you looked and there was like a sea of stock coming out of the thing and going up above your head and then branching out the huge branches all over. That's wild. It was pretty wild. At the time, I'd never seen anything like that before in my life because… People are confusing. They're saying they thought you were 5 foot 10. No, that's me. I'm 5 foot 10. I'm 5 foot 10. Yeah, I'm 6'3". So it was above my head and what's crazy about that is that their drip system fails, for instance. That shit's dead in like two hours. Yeah. That's what's always scared me about like drip systems, feeds, hydroponic systems. I mean, it was literally on like the slowest drip you could imagine it was basically constant. Yeah. It was constant feed during the light cycle. So yeah, it was pretty. But that's how they grew and that was Neville's Hayes and the Mango Hayes and the C5. And those were all grown for coffee shops at the time. And they were dank. I mean, the Neville's Hayes is A5 by Hayes C and the cut that I love still exists. I hope that it gets sent over to America sometime. Yeah. I would go up with the fuck of you laughing at it. Everybody's doubting my height. No, he's short as fuck. This is a 5'10". Huh? Flyers. He's short. I don't know how short. Floor turps. Yeah. He's short. You know. So. 5'10 is a little short. You're right. He might. I don't know. Grow up and no kiddos on my dick. There was some really good Neville's Hayes. There's rumor. It's really hard to substantiate anything with Shanti or any of the Euro guys in general. So we don't know if Neville's Hayes is the same or not. You know. We don't. Someone asked if we could break down Karmus A5 S1. Yeah. He should change the name to Snitch Hayes S1. Next. Yeah. I mean, you know, he reversed the... I don't think the Hayes is like being bred even to out-crosses of themselves. Yeah. They certainly don't... That doesn't seem like they like to be S1 very much. No. There's a lot of ugly in them motherfuckers. I mean, yeah. There's a lot of ugly. You might get... And that's part of the problem too is like when it comes to Hayes, you know, the best stuff is going to be three to four months. A bunch of it's going to be junk. A bunch of it's going to be jungle weed. You're not going to know for forever. It takes a long time to freaking, you know, to get it going. So it's like... I mean, I can tell a story that I've told privately or whatever, but I went out to the cannabis cup in... I think it was 98 or something like that. And it was the first year that they released Neville's Hayes seeds. Yeah. Okay. And Neville's Hayes was... So everybody knows. It was supposed to be a private breeding of Neville's. And he was trying to make what he called the Holy Grail, a Hayes line. So he took his favorite A5, which was on the cover of the 89 and 90 catalog, that female. And he threw that on the Hayes C-Mail. And it was the first time he tried to breed both Hayes' dads into a single thing. And they found this cut over there that was the strongest sativa I've ever smoked in my life. I've talked about it before. It's crazy. I remember what it is. That Neville's Hayes. Oh, just... Neville's Hayes C-Mail. Yeah. Yeah. It is unbelievably potent in a way that weed is not normally potent. And so I smoked it over there and it blew my head off. It made it hard for me to walk downstairs. Yeah. I held onto the railing and I felt disassociated and I felt like it hit me and it made me feel like I was smoking kind bud with no tolerance. Yeah. Like I got... It was intense. And I got high for hours. And so I brought some of these seeds home and I'd never grown an extreme sativa before. So I was going to breed with this fucker and I grew it for a few months. I took some cuttings and then once they rooted and I knew I had backup copies, I flipped it to see what was up. Yeah. Well, I flipped it at 12.12, you know? This is like 1999 or something. Yeah. I made that mistake before too. Yeah. And it vaged for months with no pistols. Yeah. You wait and you're like week seven, you're like... Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck? All my shit's finishing up and it's barely starting and I was like, fuck. So I tossed them and then I took clones and I flowered those and then I put more shit in there because I was trying to breed with it and then the same fucking thing happened. Right? And I didn't know at the time that a lot of those guys over there will tell you that if you really want to get your sativas to do well, clone them a few times and let the plant itself get to be six or seven months old. Because that's its natural veg cycle before it would even start to bloom in the tropics. You've got to realize it's going to veg for a long ass time. And he's like, no, if you're getting an A5 cut that was popped in 89, you can just flip it. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And then I didn't know anything about 11-14 or 10-11-13 or 10-14 or anything like that, which is basically just like for people that don't grow, it's how much hours of light and how much hours of darkness. Yeah. So 12-12 for 22 years ago or whatever that was fine for all my Indikas, for nevels that was like veg. Yeah. In order to get it to start, I had to give it 11 hours of light and 13 hours of darkness. It had to be over six months old. And then I had to finish it at 10-14 for like the final six weeks. Yeah. Yeah. And so I fucked up a bunch. Yeah. I did that with a Malawi too. Bodey's the one who taught me that trick, because I would have made sense of it back then. No, I had no idea. I didn't even make sense of it until I had a buddy in Amsterdam who grew for nevel and I went back to Europe and saw him the next year and told him like basically my follies. Yeah. And he just laughed at me and he laid all that shit out. Yeah. That's funny. And I had no idea, dude. I mean it makes sense when someone says it and you're like, oh, God that makes sense and how easy, yeah. Every other strain I'd ever grown of cannabis at that point in time when I turned the lights back to 12-12, everything I needed to happen happened. Yeah. That was my first experience with weed that didn't do that. You know? Yeah. And so that's only with extreme sativas. If it's got enough indica and it should trigger. Should it? And it's only if it's from seed, because seeds know they're young. Someone was asking if any of us had grown Cali Mists. Here's an old, original pack, low numbered pack early on of Cali Mists that we haven't popped yet. One day, huh, Nato? Yeah, one day. You know, so I mean it should be said about the Cali Mists. Simon worked for Neville. Its origins are unknown. Neville thinks that it's an NL5 Hayes A, you know? But he thought that everything in Europe was based off his work, so that's not surprise. He thought everything in America was based off his work, too. What is interesting is that having talked to some Dutch people, they say that the Cali Mists was based off a mother plant called the Mango. Yeah. Now whether it's the same Mango that founded the Mango Hayes and the 122 or whether it's a different thing, I can't say, but they said for a long time it was alive in Europe and then it got lost. Yeah. So people talked about the Cali Mists. I remember Western Wins has a cambo in it, or supposedly it's a cambo. Western Wins is the same fucking thing. Yeah, and it has a cambo in it. So people that don't know, Tony from Sag Martha and Simon from Sirius had a company that we talked about before, Cerebral Seeds for one year, right? And they split up, Tony made Sag Martha Seeds, Simon made Sirius Seeds, and Simon's version of the Cali Mists was called Cali Mists. Tony's version of the same line was called Western Wins, which is I think one of the cooler names in cannabis. I always liked the name Western Wins. I thought that was a super neat name. Just makes me think of gas. You know? So yeah. So I've heard people in Europe tell me that they preferred Tony's version to Simon's, that the Western Wins, but you know, then it's hard to say. Those guys don't really reveal parentage. No. We don't know what's in the Cali Mists. We don't know what's in the bubblegum. We don't know what's in the AK-47. It's hard to say. But the 90s Cali Mists, Simon got busted in 99 or 2000 when they changed the laws. And it seems like several of his lines changed after that. And the Cali Mists was one of them. But in the 90s, there was some really amazing Cali Mists cuts. It was a nice line. So yeah, that's kind of what happened. It's like people were getting, you could buy, they called it Pure Hayes F-10. Pure from Flying Dutchman. And they'd straight up tell you 80% of it is junk, 10% of it is pretty good, and 10% of it is special. I don't know if Flying Dutchman said that. I know Tom Hill said that. I'm pretty sure that in the description, they talked about how inbred it was already. Okay. And that its best use was for hybrids and out crossing. But if you were trying to find a winner, be prepared that only less than 10%. Yeah. So you'd have to do like at least a 101 hunt. Yep. And so doing a 100 plant haze hunt is a fucking nightmare. That was expensive. Yes, expensive and nightmarish because it's going to be a bunch of jungle weed. And the shittiest looking weed could end up being fire. You're not going to know until you dry it and smoke it. You're not going to know how potent it is. It can be like look resin-less and still take your head off, right? Yep. I mean, so, but what's cool about it is that it was so fire that it's become one of the most common names in cannabis and it's been blended into all kinds of shit for forever. Yep. You know, Blue Dream has haze in it. You know, lots of huge yielding plants have haze in their background because of that stretch. Yeah. The stretch, the yield, the hide. If you could throw, like Jack Herrera was basically figuring out a way to get skunk buds on a haze frame. Yeah. And if you could get a ginormous haze plant with huge skunk running colas and a little NL density, then you're three pounds of light, bro. Yeah. Yeah. Three pounds of light. Three pounds of light, bro. I used to know the days you're supposed to fucking lollipop on for three pounds of light, but I don't remember it anymore. So maybe, I don't know, maybe we should, we've been rambling about haze for a minute. Maybe we should talk a little about, so Neville made all these hybrids, only a few of which he ended up selling to the public. Yeah. But there was a bunch, like the G13 haze crosses and the silver haze, which was Afghan, a maple leaf Afghan tea by haze and different things. He passed out to friends and other people in Amsterdam and even some people that bought seeds off him early on. Yeah. So those things got spread out a little bit and there was keepers that were found, even though you could never buy G13 by haze. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they had it. And then, you know, after that, he started trying to make polyhybrids and blend them all together and cross various select cuts he'd found. He tried to cross, he was trying to do skunk and L and haze mixed together. Yeah. Because he considered those to be like the three most famous lines in Holland. Yeah. So can I get a plant that contains all three? And what it sounds like is it was just a terpenalene nightmare. G13 haze? All the polyhybrids he was trying to do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know. And, you know, he, so I went to the first cup I went to was the jacket. There was a cup in 1995, a cannabis cup in Amsterdam, which is the only place that they were. And in 95, Ben and Alan drunkers, this was actually, I guess, yeah, it was 95. So Ben and Alan drunkers wanted to have a commemorative release because the whole theme for that cup was Jack Herrera and the emperor wears no clothes. Yeah. And the impact that Jack Herrera had on the cannabis movement. Right? So there was all these. Keep going. Keep going. One second. So there was all this theme or whatever, right? And so Neville had been working on this NL5 haze by Skunk haze, but he hadn't really found what he wanted yet. So Ben and Alan drunkers, because they were at Sensi and Neville was at Sensi at the time, they convinced him to release this sort of like not ready for primetime thing and call it Jack Herrera. Okay. So that's how the Jack Herrera came about was they had, they already had a phenol of it that they had at the cup that they had flour at the cup. And then they released Jack Herrera as a seed line at Sensi Seeds at the cup. That was like a big debut was you could buy Jack Herrera at the cup. Damn it. I thought I had my Jack Herrera 95 poster here, but I can find it real quick. Anyway. So Jack got released, Jack supposedly is the genesis of fucking Brother's Grim C99 is bag seed from a coffee shop in Amsterdam of Jack Herrera. Yeah. Is the supposed, is the supposed origins or whatever. So half, yeah, it's a bag seed. So it could be half Jack or full Jack is supposedly, if you believe him, it was found in a bud of Jack Herrera bought at a coffee shop. Yeah. And he brought it home and did shit with it. So Neville wasn't satisfied with Jack Herrera. He felt it was still unfinished and he left Sensi later that year and he kept working on the project and he got Shanti Baba to help him. And they basically, they had the mothers that they wanted. They were going to use the C5 and the 122 and they kept trying to find different skunk haze dads that would do what they wanted. Yeah. It took a long time and a bunch of different males and a bunch of different growing shit out and a bunch of pain in the ass. But after a few years they found a skunk haze dad that worked. And Neville preferred that skunk haze crossed to the C5 and Shanti preferred that same dad crossed to the 122 and they couldn't agree on which one was the better line and better representative. So they released both. And they called the skunk haze by C5 the super silver haze and they called the mango haze by same skunk dad mango haze. You know, super silver haze is one that I've actually ran a bunch of and that's one that I had the hardest time finding keepers in. But I have smoked others keepers. Like I said, the old saw is always one of my favorite. But there are some really good keepers out there but I just never had luck with super silver haze. I brought some to I think our party a couple of times. It wasn't mine wasn't super elite. I wouldn't say it was a nice cut. It yielded like crazy. It was great to depth and great to grow outside. And it had a lot of qualities you want in mold resistance and just general happiness. You know, it had a light turpentine base or whatever. But but so basically super silver haze and Neville and mango haze are two sisters crossed to the same dad. Mm hmm. You know, so they're pretty close. But they're just different, you know. Super silver haze tends to be more turpentine. Mango haze tends to be a bit more mercy. It's more bit more mango style. I tend to I like the mango haze better as a haze. The super silver haze is a crazy production plan. Yeah. And then I've had some euros tell me like gene finder that there was a super silver haze in Europe that was like a 14 weaker that was like their all time favorite. Interesting. But that one seems lost. Oh, that sucks. It does. But there was an outlier that was a more hazy, more, you know, more, more, you know, less skunk, more haze and that was supposedly phenomenal. But in a polyhybrid, it's gonna be hard to find something, you know. Neville complained that none of his polyhybrid work was as nice as any of the F ones. Yeah. No matter how hard he tried, they just weren't quite as good, you know. But I will say that that Neville's haze that he made, it's the most potency I've ever tried in my life. And I know that cut still exists in Europe. Yeah. So it's really amazing. You know what's interesting? I just thought about it. I don't think most breeders or seed makers even talk about the failures anymore. No. Well, that's because most of Instagram and social media is marketing. Yeah, yeah. I guess it doesn't pay to talk about your failures. Like, do you know what the greatest cure for powdery mildew was? What? Come? Instagram? Oh, oh, you're right. Yeah. It just disappeared. Never see it. Gone. So weird. Yeah. No one ever struggles with it, right? And you know why? Because it gets curated out. Yep. You're like, oh, this is a beautiful bud. And there's like one spot of mildew on a family for your whatever. And you're just like, fuck. I remember. This is a little off topic, but I do remember when Swerve's Callie Connection story came out in high times. And he was so proud. And he fucking took pictures of it, threw it online. And the first thing everyone sees is big old powdery mildew fucking spots all over his leaves. We used to get grilled if you'd show up with powdery mildew on anything. So I think the internet culture kind of negated that because people would get fucking railed on. You want to know how I'm not big on conspiracy theories? Yeah. But I'll tell a story that most people don't know. What's that? Is that the thing that sent powdery mildew into Northern California, Mendo and Humboldt, and made it forever an issue, was Osama bin Laden and 9-Eleven. Why is that? It's fucking crazy. So 9-Eleven happens, right? It's September 11th. And he crashes these airliners into the Twin Towers, right? Yeah. So everybody's all freaked out. And they shut down airliners for three days. Yeah. But they were worried about them al-Qaeda planning biological attacks on cities. So they grounded all America's spray planes so they couldn't spray biological agents for eight weeks. OK? So from September 11th, all the way through September, all the way through October, no spray planes could be in Marin, in Sonoma, in Napa, in Mendo. You couldn't have spray planes. And that's how a bunch of those places controlled powdery mildew. Wow. OK? So then in the Santa Rosa paper, which is the big town in Sonoma, afterwards, you see things like Robert Mondavi and other people losing millions of dollars in grapes this year to powdery mildew. Jesus. And all of those vineyards are all right by the highway. Yeah. And I shit you not, dude. In the 90s and in 2000, 2001, all the hydro stores I would go into, none of them had any powdery mildew control. None of my friends had powdery mildew. Powdery mildew was something that you got, like, outdoor, maybe in October, maybe a touch here and there. If you got unlucky, never saw it, never saw it, indoor, never, ever, ever, not a single clone, ever. And within two months of 9-11 happening, every single one of my friends had it. Yeah. And then within a year or two, every hydro store had a whole shelf. Oh, no. Here's how to kill the shit. You know, there was stuff, there was biologicals like AQ10, you know, there was learning about how to kill that shit and how to get rid of it was uncomfortable. Yeah. It was really bunk, because it looked like in the beginning it wasn't fucking up your weed. Yeah. But it really fucked up your weed. Oh, it really fucks it up, yeah. It's like, you think spider mites are fucking up your weed? They're not really fucking up your weed. No, not that. Powdery mildew, that's really, really messing with your herb. And so it took a number of years to figure out how to not transfer it, how to, you know, no one had ever dealt with it. Yeah. I had never seen it. Like the first two, three years I lived in California, four years maybe, I never saw a single indoor my friends or myself that ever had it. Yeah. None. That's crazy. That's so fucking crazy. And now it's like it, and then once it became, but then if you think about it, right, imagine thousands of acres of grapes kicking off clouds as the highway drives by, a PM that they can't treat. Jesus Christ. And it just got over. It just, it just, it just got all over people's fucking tires. It got kicked in the air. It got all over the place. And then it's like, it's been, I'm not saying that that's the only reason, but it's been a problem ever since. Yeah. In all honesty. And then all those clones from NorCal get spread out all over. Yeah. And then people get PM and they don't know how to deal with it, and they don't know how to get rid of it. Yeah. And you know, and it's, you know, it's just one of those pathogens. Yeah. It's obnoxious as fuck. It's evil. I was just gonna run these by since we're winding down on time. I was just looking, these were in the same bag with the Calumist and the bubble gum and stuff. I actually was able recently to send a bunch of these back old spice of life. I have some old legend seeds. Actually my last attack of the Johnny Blaze that people were mentioning, I finally got to get those back in the hands of Red who made them. So I think Red might be making some new versions of the old legend seed stuff soon. So people that were interested in those, you might actually get them back to fruition. Legends was a good company for a while there. They had a bunch of good shit. Yeah, Red's the shit. I like that guy a lot. I do. You wanna do some quick questions? Sure. We can do questions. All right. Any that you saw that you wanna pick up on? Oh man, now you're gonna call me out and make me remember. Yeah. If people are listening, ask questions right now. Yeah. So you have a dying question that you have to ask. Can you speak on the Hawaiian lights? What's plant like? How does it compare to the NL5? I'll do that real quick. I also sent Red back some Legends Ultimate Indica, Dukie. He also got the Legends Ultimate Indica for me. Hawaiian lights is, oddly enough, it's more Afghani even than the NL5. It tends to be more broad leaf and expression. We saw some Bubba looking types in it that weren't Bubba smelling, but they were just the typical Bubba structure. Lots of resin production. There is some color in these. Lots of tropical turps. Lots of pineapple, just all through the tropical range. Trying to think of what the best way to describe that is, but it's really hard. Tropical, I think tropical basically, tropical Afghani. And that is essentially what Hawaiian lights comes out like. Very variant, but they all are pretty much broad leaf. So yeah, that's Hawaiian lights in a nutshell. We'll have Caleb come on and talk more about it soon. We're gonna be dropping the hybrids, I believe this weekend. I'm gonna do my best. I've been packaging a bunch, trying to get through all the packages in order. So once those are done, then I'll add in the Hawaiian lights hybrids. So keep your eyes posted on rightcco.com and HumboldtCSI.com for both. So there's a couple, there's a bunch of questions out. There was some stuff on leather turps. The A5 and some of the rare haze turps definitely have some leather in them. Animal and leather. I actually kind of prefer that dark profile to like the super bright, fruity, turpinoline type of thing on it. There's haze lines available all over. The trouble is just pulling out what you want out of them. There's some American. Leather is also a motor rebels, marijuana. His version of Steve Tuck's marijuana, which is very different is very, there's a lot of leather in it. There you go. Someone else just said it too, yeah. Yeah, and there's some American seed companies that are crossing things to Cuban Black and other haze things. There's obviously some European seed companies like Shanti Baba that have some stuff. There's a big debate on what he's lost and what he's had, but you can definitely get, it seems like the mango haze is still really good from him. There's smaller breeders doing smaller work on hazes. It definitely is easier to get a, well, I don't know if easier to get, but there's good haze cuts out there that are starting to slip out a little bit more wide. That kind of thing. So people were talking about when did the first cookie pop out? That's a whole show in itself, but probably like, oh, nine-ish? Yeah. I would say. I can't talk about somebody mentioned the legitimacy of Scott from Rare Danks. Neville's haze, couldn't tell you. Just no idea. Neville's haze has been for sale for a long time. If you use Neville's haze from Neville, couldn't tell you what era it was from. No information on that as far as that goes, but there's big debates. People talk about newer releases of Shanti's stuff, don't have that. People always get that way. Sometimes I wonder if it doesn't have that you found it in one or two packs and then you go through five or six more packs looking for it, you don't find it? Yeah. Is it in there? Did you just not see it that time? Yeah, did the luck of the draw not pop up? Because it's a super bitch to find one that you want. Purple Haze was a super famous haze from the original. Haze Lines from America, they kind of said, they said they kind of bred it out on accident. It was actually Magenta Haze on the poster now that I think about it. Yeah. Magenta, yeah, you know. So the problem with haze is that it's hard to find keepers, it's rare, but there is a bunch of interest in it all of a sudden in the last two or three years. And so that's gotten some American breeders collecting cuts and making hybrids. And you can find them. Yeah, a bunch of Johnny come lately, motherfuckers. You know, just be prepared to hunt through some jungle weed and, you know, and don't, don't let, you know, we should mention, we should mention that if we're talking about jungle weed, there is a super famous cut of NL5 Haze A, I think, in Holland and it's called Dr. Grinspoon. It's called Quays, motherfucker. Quays, whatever. Quays, Dr. Grinspoon, I'm just gonna say most people probably know it as- One's an S1 of the other. It's not the same thing. Okay, anyway, Quays, call it Quays. Yes, so the point I was trying to make is when you watch this thing grow, it's a million little calyxes like this fucking big. It's like the kind of thing where 99% of growers would cut that shit halfway through, right? It produces a million little one-hinter type bongrips. Yeah. But the weed outfit's unbelievable. Yeah. So if you're growing haze, don't go by looks. Wait until you can smoke it and see what the effect is and see what the taste is, because some of the shittiest looking weed imaginable. And I'm talking ugly, like haze is not IG photogenic. No. There is a lot of ugly haze, brown, shitty fucking growth, hairy looking, but then you smoke it and it tears your head off and it tastes delicious and you're happy and giggling and life is good. So you really have to make sure, don't give up early, because that's what everybody does. Yeah, I bloomed out the poise. They didn't keep cuts. I was like, what's this shit? And I did pollinate it, but I was like, nah. I mean, Neville even talked about his favorite female. He bloomed it out and it took 20 weeks and he thought it was the hairiest, ugliest, never finishing piece of shit ever. And he cut it down and he hung it in a corner and he killed the mom. And then a month later, he made some hash out of it and he said it was some of the best weed he'd ever smoked in his life and he's still regretted losing it. Yeah. But by looks, it was the ugliest piece of shit he'd ever seen. Yeah. You know, so you can't judge haze. Haze is not cookie. Haze is not photogenic. Haze, what you're going for with haze is taste and effect. Yeah. You know, it's gonna be a gnarly, big, ugly plant. You could get some pretty ones. It's not impossible, but don't give up if it looks hideous. Yeah. There's only a few people I've seen that make pure haze look photogenic and very, very few. Yeah. And then on top of that, what's gonna happen more often than not is that ugly piece of shit that you held onto that you had dreams for that was gonna be it, isn't it? And then it's just an ugly piece of shit. You know? Yeah. Because that happened to me quite a bit too. You know, it's like I buy all this Neville's haze and it takes me fucking forever to do it. And it's like 14, 18, whatever weeks. And then I'm like, oh, I don't wanna keep it. Yeah. You know, I will say like, I never really rocked for air date with stuff just because the guy was a dick to me. But a lot of people do like the moonshine haze. I got to smoke it once at one of the Denver cannabis cups at some Mad Ball or something. I can't remember who was playing, but it was some punk rock show. And it was pretty good. Not gonna lie, even as biased as I am, it was pretty good for a fucking haze. I think Rich did a good job on the moonshine. If you limit your seeds to only people you think you like, you're really limiting your seeds in cannabis. Yeah. Very much so. Yeah. Sometimes weirdos and assholes and whatnot, sometimes they pop out fire. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't even know dude, so I'm not even dissing him. I'm just saying that it's tough. That's what makes haze tough. It's tough to find. And so it's cool that people are trying to make like more accessible hazes. And then it's kind of gaining in popularity again, especially from some of these smaller seed companies and people trying to pump it in New York because that'll keep it alive. You need periodic booms of interest to keep things going. Yeah. You know? Like I said, when I was selling PIF, nobody wanted it. And now it's very in demand. I wish I would have sat on those seeds, froze them, you know, till now, but that's not how shit works. It comes in as it flows. I was joking about Rare Skunk One, the other show. Yeah. You know, 15 years ago, you couldn't give Skunk away. No. Couldn't. You know, a lot of the companies put free Skunk One or Skunk Hayes or Skunk, whatever, hybrids. Skunk One hybrids out there, yeah. Because they just had so much, they just had so many stock and they never sold any. So you might as well make people happy and throw in four seeds, three of these. Yep. Now people are like, well, maybe there's some secret sauce in this old Skunk one that I can find. The secret skunky smells. You know, you'd have a lot better luck hunting for something secret in Hayes than you would in Skunk One. That's for sure. Skunk One, people have probably pushed it to its limit. Yeah. Hayes, they're still surprises. And people asked, I should just remember because it popped into my head, people asked about the Band-Aid Hayes Seven. Yes. Because that's a cut that floats around. I will say that people I respect like Yo Sammy in Europe and others have told me they view that cut as equal to the old cuts that they hold. That's pretty cool. So it's the first Hayes in a long time that they feel is as good and stands right there with those old 25, 30 year old strains that have been kept forever. That's interesting. And it's a lot more accessible to people. Yeah. And you know, in America than a lot of these other ones that I talk about, these things are, I should mention people think I'm connected or whatever. I have been fucking hunting all of these European Hayes cuts since the 90s. Yeah. You know, and it was like the white rabbit. It was like multi-decades of looking. Yeah. And there's still some, like that Neville Hayes cut. I want that thing so bad. I know where it is. I can't get it. You know, if it's in America, I don't know about it. Yeah. You know, but anyway, the Band-Aid Hayes 7 is an amazing cut, amazing effect. They're growing it over in Europe. They love it. It's easier to get in America than the rest of them. Yeah. It does take forever. You know, so be prepared to go 14 weeks or whatever, but it's a fire cut by all accounts. Yeah. And I believe that's Cuban Black Hayes cross to a five tie. I believe so. Yeah. Whatever Cuban Black is. Yeah. So whatever. So it's possible that, you know, it's that it's a C5 cut by an A5 cut by a tie male to Brudai pollen. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. But what other case maybe there's a cut that you can still buy Band-Aid Hayes seeds. There's various versions of them. And there's at least this one cut that came out elite status. Yeah. And the people that have been running a lot of these Hayes for 30 years, if they think it's as good as the rest of them, you know, that's pretty high praise from them. Yeah. Yeah. Adopt, he's doing a lot of work that he's a good dude. So, you know, yeah, we did talk about Tom Hill just in brief, not very, not for very long, you know, but Tom Hill did release, did have Tom Hill Hayes and did have Tom Hayes, Tom Hill Hayes by Deep Chunk and maybe some other more work around that. Yeah. And I believe all of his stuff descends from positronics Hayes lines. Fossil Brown is kind of saying that you're wrong about A5 and C5 not existing. I don't know, I think he's confused. No, they definitely exist. Yeah. They definitely exist. But what I'm saying is that there's various Hayes cuts that I know are alive in Europe and I don't know if they're alive here. Yeah. There's A5 and C5 that have popped up in America and there's a number of people that have them. There's still politics around releasing seed around it or trading it or whatever, so they're still tough. So, they're alive. Some of them, it should be said, some of them have the virus. Yeah. So, be careful. Yeah. I haven't run the SSSC Hayes, someone's asking about, but I'm making some of this. That's a good thing to mention because one of the things that's interesting is almost all the Hayes that's available is based off of Neville's work, which is a couple of males, right? Or some posi work or whatever, but Neville's seems to be the stuff that everybody found fire. Yeah. And when we interviewed Carell, Carell had a, it's been confirmed by friends of mine, he has a 35 plus year old skunk Hayes that he made from Hayes seeds given to him. And what's interesting about, if you were to get Carell's work and cross it to some of Neville's work, is that it's not Neville's males. Yeah. It's another genetic of Hayes. Yeah. So, it's not quite the same bottleneck. Yep. What's so ever? You know, because Hayes doesn't like being crossed to itself. So, and it's from that same batch of seed that Neville got, you know? Yeah. So, I didn't really realize that until we talked to him. Yeah, that was a mindblower. But his SSSC hybrids off that skunk Hayes should be a completely different Hayes that's been available up until recently. Yeah. But from the same seeds, from the same era. I'm gonna be really excited with some new outdoor space to finally run some of my Hayes collection and other shit stoked. Finally get to pop the SSSC stuff because I've really wanted to. Yeah. So, I mean, there's, I don't know, I could try to, you know, at the end of it, I could try to, you know, there's dog shit and the, we haven't talked about the Colorado cough. No, we didn't talk about the cough. The cough is another. I think we did an NL5 Hayes episode though. Yeah, you know, there's cough, there's dog shit, there's Cuban black, Dutch treat, sweet skunk from Canada has a bunch of NL5 Hayes in it or is it, you know, at least in its original form. So there's a bunch of American cuts that float around. There's eight or 10 Dutch cuts that float around. I don't know what that all adds up to. Yeah. But what's great is that it seems like from a line that was available in the 90s. Yeah, there's the stew, which is one that I don't actually, somebody mentioned that. I know. I don't even know that. I know of the stew. The stew is an old, is another old NL5 Hayes from the East Coast. I've never actually grown it. It's been one of those rumors that I hear about. Okay. I've heard stories of the stew. I've talked to people that I trust that have talked about the stew. I've never seen the stew. Is it kind of like, is it kind of like disco stew in the Simpsons where like the D rubbed off his jacket? So it was the stud and then the tag got like. I almost want to say, and people might get me wrong, but it's like the stew might be from Jersey or somewhere in that New York region. Okay. And it's old, but I don't know anything about it, but it is another supposed NL5 Hayes cut. And Island's Sweet Skunk is a little different than Sweet Skunk. And then Mark Emery did this thing that confused the lineage of it. But as far as we can tell, there is a real Sweet Skunk that was basically mostly NL5 Hayes. Yeah. And it got, Steve crossed it to like grapefruit or something. Or... Yeah, I don't know what it was crossed here. So, anyway, it's cool in the sense that there's a bunch of different phenos that have survived. All females, obviously. We don't have any... People are asking me, where could you get real NL5 Hayes male pollen? And I think that might be lost to time. Yeah. One of our buddies, Kim Blackburn, is a part of the cough group. So we have people closer to the cough that know the history of it real well. So I'll probably bring him on at some point, working man, to talk about it. He's a cough fanatic. Yeah. And he knows the story pretty well. I mean, there's some still confusion about it. There was cough one, and there was cough two in Colorado. Yeah. I used to smoke the cough in the 90s. I had really good friends of mine. I grew up with it and ended up moving out to Boulder in the mid-90s. And I used to go out there all the time. And that's where I smoked that sandalwood tasting, AK-47. Yeah. And some of those other famous 90s Colorado strains. But yeah, the cough exists. The New York stuff exists. Strawberry cough is much different. I don't know the origins of strawberry cough. I know what Cushman says. I know that it is exactly like herb beer, and it stirs and has a lot of similar traits to it. I like it. So it's some strawberry-filled haze for whatever that's worth. I don't see that. And the cough basically got famous in Fort Collins, but I think it came from Connecticut. I don't want to misspeak, but our buddy working man knows like the people involved and like the people that brought it to Colorado from there and all that different types of stuff. So it definitely is, you know. Yeah, you never know, the dog shit. The dog shit I really wish still had its original name. Its original name is right up there with Western Winds is one of my favorites. The dog shit Minneapolis was called Electric Boogaloo. Yeah. You know what sucks is like I was doing the labels for the dog shit crossed to the Hawaiian lights and I was like, I just wanted to put Electric Boogaloo, but I know most people won't even associate that with the dog shit cut and they'll just sit there. You know? Yeah, you know, it'll just sit there. But Electric Boogaloo is one of the all-time great names. Yeah. You know, I love it. Someone was asking about deep chunks, strawberry cough belong to. It's like a lion something farms. The cough is super well known. And it's actually Apgui deep chunks. We still have good friends that grow the cough that we talk to all the time. So luckily the cough is alive and well. You know, there's Hayes in Florida that got shipped to New York, you know? There's crews of Cubans down there. There's crews of Cubans and Dominicans in New York that run it. There's Hayes head. Kevin Fever, that's totally incorrect. It was what I was just talking about. It's not fucking mad farmer. He had nothing to do with that cut. It was a cut out of Blue Sky Cafe originally and it was made by Lion Something Farms. You can still find the info on ICMAG way back when he made it long before mad farmer came to this. And it's an Apgui across deep chunk. It is not strawberry cough deep chunk. So it was just relabeled by Blue Sky. There we go. But one of the things I should say about one of the things that draws people to Hayes is that we live in an Indica dominated. It's like the exact opposite of the 70s and 80s where Sateva ruled the game. We live in an Indica and Indica dominant scene. Yeah. And Hayes is a tie back to that ancient, you know, no longer available import. And it seems like it gives people a better high in a different way. It has a different high profile. It hits people and even if people are extremely used to an experience with smoking Kems or, you know, OGs or whatever, you can smoke some Hayes and have it hit you like a brick. So even though it's ugly and it takes a long time and has these various issues, it's popular for my favorite reason for weed to be popular because it works good. Effect. Yeah. Effect. It works good, you know? So that's the best reason to like weed. It's weed that works. Weed that works, you know? Yeah. So. All right, I'm gonna, we're at 103 minutes. So I think we are good for this session. We are good for this session. So I mean, once again, everyone thank you for giving us like your Friday night to listen to me ramble and, you know, and whatnot and Matt and shoot the shit. And, you know, you can reach out to us on our Discord, on our, on our Speak Easy Discord. You can reach out to us on our IG pages. Discord's easier. We always are down. I'm not a Breeder Syndicate Discord. The Speak Easy Discord's a different one. Oh yeah, that's right. See, I misspeak. Well, I should let you do the, I'm so bad at any kind of promotion. I know, I appreciated it. I was watching, I was letting you roll. But yeah, so the Breeder Syndicate Discord, we post on there quite a bit. We answer questions all the time. We're always down for people to give us ideas of it's all about like what you guys wanna hear about. We're trying all the time to like bring people history and make it modern and tie it into what they know and expand people's knowledge and stuff like that. So once again, into it, you know, you can search for Breeder Syndicate on Google, right? Breeder Syndicate Patreon. Breeder Syndicate Patreon. See, I, this, this, You're almost there. I'm impressed. Almost there. I'm almost there. But anyway, thanks for listening everyone. We'll have, we'll be there. We'll be here next week. I'll see you soon. Oh yeah. Thanks, hybrids, coming soon, right? See, code.com. If you're a Patreon member, you'll get first access to them and they're way cheaper for you. So cheers. Cheers. Thanks Chazzo. Peace.