 Excellent. First, let me say thank you for this event that is the telecast, the broadcast, the vitally important piece of information to our state, to children, to educational institutions, as well as a whole of who we are as a people, people as this one global human family. So thank you for that. Thank you both for joining us, because the work that two of you have done, Roy and Shirley, have been so important for our community for so long. So thank you. Thank you. That's 30 plus years in Vermont. Shirley and I came here in the late 80s with the thought that we'd be here for a very short period, short being maximum of four years. There's something good about the Vermont water that's kept us here, I guess, it's in the air. So we're still here having lived in Burlington and Essex Junction and now Franklin County in general and Fairfax in particular. And Roy, just remind us what you came here to do. Okay, I'll back into that by saying people ask me, Roy, how did you get or why did you come to Vermont? And I say, I don't know, it was a God thing. It was a spiritual journey part of more specifically for those who don't buy into spiritual journeys. I came, University of Vermont offered me the directorship as director of corporate and foundation relations. And I came accordingly with the carrot being that at that time, if you could find time, you also could in apply for graduate school, I was accepted into the doctoral program and working and being an academic or a student, that was a little too much. So I disbanded the idea, table the idea, even though I'm in a doctoral program at the moment on another level. Also at that time, Chaplain College offered me an adjunct position in the psychology department. I had been an adjunct outside of Washington. When I came here, had been in Washington for some 10 years in the institutional advancement field, and which of course was a longstanding profession, you might say, having worked at Dartmouth and Brown and Washington University. So it was to help the institution by educating people about the importance of investing in institutions, investing in our students, by making financial contributions. And Shirley, what was your work during this time when you came to Vermont? Wife. Yeah, and you were also community activist. If I remember correctly, we've known each other that long. Yeah, a little bit. But I'm retired. Now you're retired. Yeah, and you started doing public access television very early in the process. Yes. Tell us about your show, your program. I don't remember half of it. I used to just find people to interview and talk to them about their interests and their activities. That was a great, great series. Both of you did that program. Thank you for reminding us and your audience of that. I must say, Shirley is being unusually short. She usually has a lot to say, just as she always had a lot to do. As you may remember, she would organize fundraisers for nonprofits. She was the first person to bring both the police department and the fire department together to engage in athletic competition with proceeds going to help nonprofit young people in particular. She was also one of the charter members of the gospel fest and a charter member that went for years there at the Flynn Theater. And of course, she also was a charter, is a charter member of New Alpha Missionary Baptist Church. You know, there's still people and some people in Vermont who don't recognize that New Alpha Missionary Baptist Church is the only Baptist church in Vermont that worships in an African American tradition right there in Burlington. So Shirley writes poetry. She continues to do that. And when we moved to Franklin County, she did temper her outreach a bit. Maybe that's the reason she isn't as talkative as she can be and singing. You know, I forgot that there she also is a gospel singer. The fact is, I forget which one of the presidents at the University of Vermont asked her to sing at one of those special occasions. And because she is, I forget what the term is, but she works across the aisle politically. Governor Douglas recommended her to President Barack Obama to sing as part of the reception that was organized for President Barack Obama when President Barack Obama visited Vermont. I'm very interested to learn about the New Alpha Baptist Church and when it was started and why it was started. That founding story. Can you say something about that, either of you? Absolutely. I'm not going to talk for Shirley. I dare not do that. She might change the keys on the door, you know. But the answer you. We were both working at the University year or two after I came aboard at the University. Rodney Patterson came as an administrative tour to start organizing the program on the Redstone campus. I forget the initial name, but it has evolved and is now located that student multicultural, multi-ethnic, et cetera, programs now located in the Living Learning Center directed by an executive director Colson, Beverly Colson, I believe is her full name. However, to be more specific and direct. So he came and his question was was a black church that wasn't one. And he was an ordained minister coming out of Chicago in terms of his ordination. He came here directly from a university in Michigan. And so he started the church right there. He called the London meeting one day and said, look, I think this would be value added to the campus and to the community. And I'm going to start the church. And he asked us to be part of the team. That is the founders, if we were interested and everybody raised a hand in the room. And that was the beginning for a few years. We met had full house of students, non-students at every service. And out of that, of course, we grew gospel fast. And shortly thereafter, we moved to the chapel adjacent to the first congregational church on Winnowski in downtown Burlington that opened up the doors. Because even today, there are some people in the community who themselves erect a wall between the community and the campus. We felt that that might prevent some people who otherwise would come to service. And sure enough, when Rodney Patterson moved to working with Bob Lee, who was the senior minister there at First Congo and a person of vision, the walls every day were every Sunday, were bursting for room because people came from, oh, my goodness, as far away as the northern border here in Vermont, as well as south of Montpelier to the services. And so it became a place where it looked like the United Nations in terms of the people in the audience participating and singing in the choir, et cetera. So that was the kickoff, you might say, as the spirit led. Shirley, would you like to add anything to that founding story? No. No, I'm okay. I think he did a good job. Okay. It sounds like this was, the New Alpha Baptist Church is a very important cultural institution. As you said, it was like a United Nations where people from different backgrounds could come together. And it sounds like a very unusual kind of organization for Vermont at that time. Oh, absolutely. For example, one afar and one near. When that occurred, it being historic in every aspect, the story went around the world. New York Times, Wall Street Articles, Johnson Publications out of Chicago. And then secondly, when Burlington had its first woman police chief, she came here from, I forget her name at the moment, she came from, I think, Duke University. And I recall us having a meeting and she said, where's the Black Church? She says the church is integral to vibrant communities, the church that worships in an African American tradition in particular. And that was her first interest. She was kind of like Reverend Rodney Patterson. Where's the Black Church? It's rich. You don't have that for many, many reasons. You know, it's kind of like New England, when New England villages started, there was always a place for the church in the circle there in the town. And so that, as you indicated, brought a new dimension and richness to a place that was the widest state at that time among the 50 states. Can you describe what the African American church experiences like and why it's different and why it's so important? Let me try to do that from my perspective, that is, and my experience. Its education is self-haven. If we look at slavery or enslavement, the one thing that Massa, or the white plantation owner, made room for is that of Blacks going to church. And that Bible became the encyclopedia of learning. That's where Blacks learn to read and write. That's why the preacher himself was all inclusive in so many different ways, speaking to the spiritual soul and in some instances healing, physical healing, because many of the white ministers, quite schismic plantation owners, were so brutal. You had members of church who, because it was an outlaw, it was a crime for African Americans to learn to read and write, you had a number of people who would hold school between midnight and 1 or 2 a.m. And they would blacken out the windows so that the light would not shine. And it was the Bible that was used to teach, et cetera. Fast forward, a part of the tradition and the spirit, if you will, is that you can be expressive, and many people are expressive in different kinds of ways, to share one story. There's a member of College Street Congregational Church there next door to the Fletcher Street Library in Burlington who visited for the first time an African American worship service. And she and her white colleagues were sitting in the audience, and she was very nervous throughout the audience, throughout the service. So she said, she was upset because they kept talking to the minister. And, well, that call and response is part of the tradition. It is orchestrated in a manner that brings about deeper understanding. And, you know, you've been beat up all which ended up itself is important, but on a psychological level. I think it's fair to say that, you know, when a white man and a white woman beat you up all day, if you're domestic, the white woman is yelling at your mother or your sister or so on and so forth. A white man is beating up on you. You're looking for a release, and that's what the psychological catharsis happens. And you feel after the word heard and the faith factor that said God is still in control, and there is a better day ahead. And as scripture says, we're overcomers, we the people in the congregation, then you're empowered. You can go back to Monday through Friday and you can deal with the onslaught of that injustice and oppression. Do you feel that the Black Church tradition serves that purpose today, that same purpose? Church in general serves that purpose. Now, when you, so yes, is a response to your question. The editorial, if you will, is that it's perhaps more needed where you have the oppress. The scripture is very clear, you know, that Jesus and God Almighty and the Holy Spirit came for those who were oppressed, came for the widows. It came for those who are marginalized, etc. So as we look at our society, that's still a fact. I mean, you know, on one hand of the spectrum, 30% of American adults are illiterate. So you have people whose only gospel of reality is the boob tube, excuse me, and some of the television programming is ugly and untrue. On the other hand, if you go to church here again, you know, there's hope, there's a semblance that's a teaching that is the role principally of a pastor to lead, to help, to discern. And finally, there are so many unchurched people, not only unchurched people and illiterate, but you have some in the pulpit who use that pulpit in an abusive manner. So you have to rely on, unfortunately, there's a long list, especially of growing young people who are bringing intelligence to the mantle and saying, this is what it is. And put it before people in allowing the people to, in their own prayer closet, in their own way to find their way as opposed to be beat up by a person who himself or herself are mortals. They are not perfect. Yeah. You know, I founded a program for one of the non-profits in Vermont in Burlington. It was called Faith in Youth Development for the Future. And one of the staff members in the organization came by and said, he sat there and talked to me for about an hour. It was supposed to be an introductory, you know, five minutes. Okay. And at the end, she says, I've never heard an approach to either the church, spirituality, or the Bible in the manner in which you put it on the table for me to consider. She says, I even stopped going to church because of that. So that's what I had reference to when I say, you know, some people in the pulpit, unfortunately, use it kind of like their presidency and their ego gets in the way and they forget, you know, hey man, hey woman, you're marching from the womb to the tomb. Okay. You're not permanent and you're not God. So make a positive contribution or get out of the way. I wonder what your view is on this period where so many people across the country are coming out to support Black lives and to oppose the, I think safe to say, structural racism that infects our country. I see the sea change. When, for example, I see the sea change, when people are faced with things such as love, truth, respect, righteousness, and they've been doing the opposite and not only doing the opposite, but getting away with it, being applauded for doing it. And you say, stop. You know, that arouses anger and guilt. And essentially that's what's happening within our country itself. Wherever you want to start, you know, let's start with the presidency, the office of the presidency. The third president of the United States is applauded for quote, his goodness. On the other hand, the public that applaud him for that goodness overlooks the fact that he impregnated and enslaved teenager. That was wrong. And he knew better. Jefferson. We're talking about Jefferson? Yes. We're talking about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemons. That was wrong. And he knew it was wrong. But he was applauded for that fact. There's a monument to him in Washington, D.C. at the moment. Fast forward. You look at Jackson, Andrew Jackson, I think it's his name, a maverick of a sort. People applaud him for apparently balancing the budgets on and so forth. But he came to this land and a land that belonged to Native Americans. And he's responsible for thousands of deaths of men, women and children. God's people who happen to be Native Americans, but folk applaud him. The 45th president has a bust of him in his office and considers Jackson one of his idols. And, you know, when Strong Thurman, U.S. Senator out of South Carolina, Dr. Newt Ginrich's mentor ran for the president. Thurman ran for the president on the segregationist ticket. Yet when the lights went out, he went home to his black mistress. And his their black daughter or biracial daughter died in 2013. So I'm saying that hiding the truth on one hand, facing the exposure of that truth on the other diminishes the myth of white supremacy or the myth of three-fifths or four-fifths of a person if you're black. You have no humanity. And so the reckoning of the moment says you have to be honest. Butler's book, The Half Has Never Been Told talks about the enslavement or slaves establishing the financial foundation of our country. We the people of color, African Americans, we never received reparations for that, as we never received credit for sustaining the plantations, etc. So when that is brought to the table, there's tremendous pushback for the beneficiaries, who themselves are either immediate immigrants or descendants of immigrants who've come and taken the land. So part of that change is happening as more and more youngsters and more and more people appealing back the onions of ignorance, which has suppressed that truth as we move and see when we look at it domestically, and then we see what's happening internationally with the richness of Africa as it now stands. There are more millionaires in South Africa than what one can, quote, shake a stick at. And we look at India and the fast population growth, education and technology and a number of Asian countries as well. And folks are saying, wait a minute, and you've been feeding us this garbage all along and we aren't going to settle for that anymore. And those who have been exploited are saying, wait a minute, we can do better. And collectively, we're going to do better. So at the moment, that is what's happening. This is why this holiday on Friday, the 19th, Juneteenth is gaining a lot of attention because it is emblematic of so much of the tension that you're talking about and the injustice that you're talking about. So I wonder if you could give us a little background or history into the Juneteenth holiday. Okay, let's look at it from two perspectives. One, getting back to post Lincoln's signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. He signed that legislation and plantation owners in general and those who had enslaved people in Texas, in particular, gathered in Texas. They had such a strong pro enslavement. Fort, you might say, that it was one of the states where slavery continued to thrive until two and a half years after the emancipation signing by President Lincoln. And we had enough vaccination and enough willpower and military power to go into Texas and liberate that remnant of enslavement. And when that happened, it was a glorious moment. So people just celebrated and the celebration went across the country. You know, we still have the grapevine, if you will, but they may have taken the, what was it, smoke signaled away from the Native Americans, so they couldn't communicate. Well, we still had the grapevine in the Underground Railroad, all right, and figuratively speaking there. And so the word went forth and people celebrated and systematically over the years, one state after another has adopted and celebrated that happening state by state until at the very moment, 47 of the 50 states have a Juneteenth recognition or Juneteenth holiday. Not only domestically does that take place, but it also takes place, that is a celebration or holiday in foreign countries, including Japan and China, but back to Vermont. So when this took place as history is traveling throughout, the national leader, Dr. Ron, and said, Vermont seems to be right in terms of its history to consider having a holiday. So he appointed us as Vermont Juneteenth people in various communities, including, you know, people like, oh gee, there are so many, Larson out of, Mark Larson out of Burlington, Brooks out of Montpelier, Driscoll of Burlington as well, Kiss, Burlington, and I think there was the Rogers of Calislton and Shaffer of Colchester. And the thought after deliberations and education and advocacy by Shirley was that they would go forth. And then we had to join House of Resolution. Peter Clavel had a Juneteenth day. And I think it was a whole week there in 2001. And of course, Governor Douglas signed the legislation that have made Vermont officially the 29th state to have a Juneteenth holiday. And what year was this again, Roy? Well, we're looking at 2008-2009 during Governor Douglas's day. The House of Joint Resolution took place on June 4th, 2001. And Peter Clavel's June 9th through I think June 17th, 2001. That was when he signed the proclamation for Juneteenth in the city of Burlington. And what do you do on Juneteenth? It varies across the country. There are elaborate celebrations. And then there are small speakouts. And there are educational forums with a speaker, for example, Shirley and I organized the first Juneteenth conference here. It was hosted by St. Michael's College. And we had governors and governors. We don't discriminate. So we had a Republican and a Democratic governor to speak. Dr. Ron Myers flew in and spoke. It's a demon. He of himself is an interesting story. Here's a black man who is an MD. Also a musician, trumpet and piano are his specialties. And finally, he is an ordained Baptist minister. So many of the people, he works in some of the poorest counties in the state of Mississippi. And even though Juneteenth happened back in the 1800s, he's still facing discrimination. His clients are black and white and a number of them pay him with poetry, with pygmy, with eggs, with chickens, etc. And he has a burning just to help people. But that's an aside. Sorry, let me go on. So when we look at the sessions, their educational sessions, their history in many respects, because we still have schools in pockets where there are erected walls that deny the truth. So Juneteenth is a celebratory in many ways in terms of the escape of the imprisonment there in the police state of Texas. But many of us as a people still have incarcerated minds. Our mindsets are still stuck on stupid. And as a result of that ignorance that sin, if you will, we're helping to tear down those walls to make a difference. You know, if you are a veteran, and I won't go off on that soapbox, but you can go forth and fight for this country as many African Americans did in the Vietnam War and World War Two and World War One. And then come home and you're treating it as if you are less than dirt. My uncle, for example, fought in the war and when he boarded the trains, German soldiers set up front. These are German soldiers who had been captured. Black American soldiers had to sit in the back of the train. Okay. So I'm saying that we're still educating in many ways. When we arrived in Vermont, after my interview with the University of Vermont, I wanted to talk to the person who held the job previously. So they referred me to Barbara Snallings. At that time, she had started her own business. So I found her, we had luncheon. And she said after, you know, the interrogation, which was course appropriate, she wanted to know who I was, et cetera. And she stopped. And she says, you know, I like what I hear and what you've done. And I hope you'll come to the University of Vermont, but I'm going to be straight up with you, Roy. They are going to push you. There are many, they are going to push back against you simply because of who you are. Wow. Did she tell the truth? And we won't go there. At the same time, Shirley had visited me one day during the week. And she was leaving the Fletcher Free Library. And this white guy, who by every means exude a level of sophistication in terms of his outward appearance, high-end automobile, he was driving. And he called her some negative stuff, you know, including the N word. Of course, Shirley's never shy. So she educated him very quickly. And he ran the red light. You know, he just blew through the light. But I'm saying that we can fool ourselves and hide under these little bubbles. And then when people push back, there's an anger that says, why don't you stay in your place? What do you want this time? Et cetera. Well, that's part of the denial because many people who ask questions like that know right from wrong. But there is a refusal to acknowledge yet. You know, there's a professor at the University, excuse me, Middlebury. And at Middlebury, I think his name is Professor James Sanchez. And he was giving a lecture at the Clemens Farm. And he was talking about whiteness and the fact that if you look at the legal profession in America, many of the decisions are framed according to adjudications, are framed according to white precedence. These are templates that they apply to every situation. And as a result, you see that many African Americans are very much ruled against. Too small example. I think it's Supreme Court Jayne. Jayne was his name at the moment. But from the bench, he and a majority said, you know, black folk have no rights that a white person is bound to respect. No rights which a white person is bound to respect. You know, any Google or other search in bring up the full text. Here in Vermont, 2018, the Vermont Supreme Court supported the KKK in a decision regarding harassment and so forth. The KKK is an American terrorist organization. They came together to terrorize, to induce fear, etc. They are the people who marched against my grandfather in an attempt to kill him after the Supreme Court 1954 decision was made. They want to send a Tennessee message to African Americans that they had not attempt to integrate any school or even dream of coming to the school. My mom, years before that, she was in high school. And she and her classmates saw the clan in kind. These were local business professionals. You know, in small towns, everybody knows everybody. You can pick, even if it's midnight, you know what the voice is, you know, because you're in and out of their stores and you have black folk who are domestics, etc. So even though they came at night, she and her classmates knew who the people were by their voices. Well, they came and they grabbed the dean and they killed him. And they sent the message, well, he was the only black man in Haywood County, Tennessee, with the, at that time with the college degree. And they wanted to send the message to black people, especially those on the plantation, that there would be no NAACP branch brought to Haywood County, Tennessee. And they thought if they grabbed him, killed him, and of course, you know, the habitual castrations and all of that after the kill, that that was in the message. So I'm saying there's an awokeness going on in our country at the moment that's saying we may be large globally, but we're communicating as a family more and more. And we see the injustices and we see the 1% and plus who are taking advantage, taking advantage, you know, and so it's a hard road to toe, you might say quote unquote, but it's necessary for that, for education and celebration to take part. We're celebrating the goodness because goodness is there, it just needs to raise its pride, the neck, the knee off of the neck and educate. You know, if you look at poverty, the majority of the people on poverty in America are white folk, but white people look around and say, you know, you black people are keeping us in poverty. And well, if we are, why is it we're not in the power seats? But is that feeling that my skin says, you know, this is my affirmative action pass. And you over there who are just fighting to get in the door still are taking my position. Wait a minute. 30% of you are illiterate. So I'm saying that there are bigger human issues for us to address. And we can do that. If we get the plank out of our eye and attacking other people and shooting other people, knowing that we can get away with the kill, knowing that we can get away with the murder. And, you know, finally, you know, I hear people say, yes, but yes, we've hired an executive first in the history of Vermont. Look how great we are in doing that. She is going or he is going to address all of the inequities. And we're going to bring about inclusion. Our legislature has said our Vermont legislature has said that there are racial disparities across all of the state agencies as Act 54. Okay, we hear that. But aren't you being a little ingenious? You're the governor and you have commissioners. You have a cabinet of people. You have budgets. You can call for accountability. Yet you brought one person here. You've given them no staff. You've given them no budget. She does not have power to bring about accountability. And you say, hey, go forth and do it. Wow. Modern day Thomas Jefferson stop exploiting black women. Modern day strong, Thurman stop exploiting black women. Modern day legislature stand up when someone like Claya Morris is hounded into stopping her reelection campaign. You have the power to do that. And you don't. But you're saying you're some kind of card-carrying Christian. Stop it. Do the right thing. So Juneteenth is there to celebrate the goodness and encourage the kind of positive change that further is that further and that furthers win, win for all concern. I want to ask you a personal question and you don't have to answer it. But what's it? I just would find it very difficult to live in this country as a body person, given the history, given the day to day injustice. And I wonder how do you do it? Like how do you keep going? Well, there are recognitions and charges. I'll start with the charge. Well, I'll start with the recognition is that God is God. God is still in charge. When we do all this dirt in spite of the fact that we as human do all of this dirt, we're going to leave here. And God's world will still be here. God's planet earth is still here. God's love is so great. God's mercy is so great that God continues to give us another chance. Continues to give us another chance. Us who are made biblically speaking in the image and likeness of God. So that reality and faith says go forth. I said previous, or as we started, how did I get here? Well, you know, it had to be a God thing. If it was a Roy thing, there's no way I would have come to this cold place. You know, it gets cold here, man, minus whatever. I had a brother I invited up here, two people. One, he came and he left and he said it took him six months to get wet, to get warm again. And another one said, you're going where? And I said, Vermont, he says, next time I'll see you, it will not be until you leave Vermont. So it had to be a God thing. And that's fundamental. Secondly, I think God says here's an opportunity where my word, my presence is important. And just by being you, you can be a role model that to whatever degree, you can help make a positive difference. So Shirley and I attempted to do that by reaching out, lifting and helping to empower others. When we look at the big picture, it's a miracle that more black men haven't been shot, haven't been lynched. He asked the lynching to place in 1800s, right? Well, last weekend, two more black men were lynched. The lynching took place in 1800s, right? Yeah, but when Sandra Bland went to Texas on her way to school, she ended up in jail. The public story was that she committed suicide. The grapevine says she was raped and lynched in jail. So here we see the necessity of, here we see the power that sustains people, the power that sustains African American men. We see the dirt, we see the oppression, we see the injustice. But there's a God that continues to carry us on. Shirley and I were among the group who were selected to meet President Barack Obama when he came to visit Vermont after he was elected. I was talking to one of his security people and the person said, President and Mrs. Obama had received more death threats than any other president in the history of the U.S. presidency. So that sin factor that's there in and of itself says that we're kind of like walking miracles, we black men. When I leave the house in the morning, there's no guarantee I'm going to get back alive or in the same condition because lurking around me is that sin, that evil, for whatever stupid reason it is there. In the last X number years of the current presidency, USA, I've seen more meaning, more meaningful things done than ever in the history. Here in Fairfax, I've seen more people, men and women, white men and women drive up to the store with their Confederate flags, either on their license plate or shirts that wearing paraphernalia that they have on. If you are smart enough to know what you're wearing, then you know what it stands for. If you are a resident citizen of the United States, then you know that Native Americans or the indigenous people are still the rightful owners of this land that you have taken and that you occupy. You know also the contributions that they have made. Oh, you should know. In many instances, you probably don't because you're educators, you're school superintendents, you're principals, you're classroom teachers have been cowered into overlooking that level of education. There's a difference between being intelligent and being smart. If you're just intelligent, you basically have inculcated what's on the page and you regurgitate what's on the page. Life is about more than what's on the page. Smart people know that. They take the intelligence they incorporated in life because that's where you live. That's what you live, a life. We can do that, but there's a 1%, there's a 10%. Whomever who have stolen from the Native Americans, the African Americans, the Chinese Americans, the Japanese Americans, other countries and hoarded it until themselves with the foolish notion that that's the way it should be. Can you imagine across the country, if all the people with the hyphenated whatever, one day just stopped and said, I'm not going to go to work, whether it's in the field or whether it is in the corporate boardroom, what would happen to the stock exchange, what would happen to the folk who underpay the people to take the nannies, the people to take care of their children, the maids, to turn on the washing machine because they don't know how, they're too busy keeping up with the Joneses. I'm saying that we are one family. Together we can realize that together we can make a win-win difference. So Juneteenth directly and indirectly speaks to those variables. Even though I have no guarantee other than God that when I leave in the morning, I can come back to my condo in the evening without a buzz in my back or somebody's knee on my throat. This meanness is also contagious because you and I as taxpayers among others pay the salaries of these professors at the colleges, at the universities, and some of them when in spite of us paying their six-figure salaries, etc, have put themselves under a bubble. Even in the African-American community, they've been carcaded some of the hatred and the self-hatred is there that prevents kind of progress that can go forth. I'm better than they so on and so forth. Well, those alphabets behind your name didn't stop the bullet that killed Dr. King. That alphabet behind your name didn't save the lives of many, many boys and girls of color. And when you walk off that campus, you look just like them. So there's no room for self-hate. There's no room for ongoing oppression. We either stand and go forth together or we are going to fall and die together. I'm an optimist. So an optimist plus God, I believe, is a majority. Let's pray that that happens. Thank you so much.