 We're doing some paintings. We're having a cool concert. It needs to be very collective in the holistic approach for community and economic development. What I mean by that is that politicians come and go, and particularly at the local level. And if you live in local rural America, you understand the influence that these local leaders have. And oftentimes, they don't have a professional economic developer. You may have one that represents an industrial foundation that incorporates multiple counties. And I can assure you, if they're talking about doing an economic development strategy, or they're going back for some taxes to use for economic development, the likelihood of them thinking about art and culture as a part of that is very slim. And what I'm suggesting to you and challenging you all, and I wish I could multiply you all and take you back to my footprint, we've got some incredible leaders around this. But when I was the last night at the hotel, I was reading through all the bios. And I'm sorry I won't get to stay for the rest of the day to really meet you, but talking about some impressive people. I mean, I was reading these bios and I'm like, my gosh, I'd love to come and sit down and pick your brain and have you teach me on how we can do things better, how we can connect with you, how we can leverage our resources, and how can I use these types of positions and agencies to elevate the conversation and engage with the advocacy to the policymakers at the local level. I can't stress that enough. When you're engaging in these projects, it's not just about the project. It needs to be tied to the business model. Because in a lot of our places, when you sit down through a county supervisor, county judge, you vote about places that are called county judges, or even a mayor, you say, hey, I want to come talk to you about creative placemaking. Now, you all are incredibly intellectual and smart, artistic individuals. When that comes out of my mouth, and I'm talking to a less enlightened, local elected official. That is not always what they want to talk about. Because then I spend the next 45 minutes to an hour trying to connect the dots of what that really means. Build that onion back. What does that mean to the local community, regardless of the size of the rural community? That's critically important, because at the end of the day, the result, the vision here, is that you're trying to make your community a more attractive place for investment. And the chairman is right. When we are traveling in our two regions, and we see the opportunities that are being created for additional investment, business investment, please let me challenge you all. When you're having your conversations at the local level, on your projects, on creative placemaking, please connect the dots with the business model. So that's the first point. It's gotta be a part of the economic and community development strategy. If you hear of a strategy being funded in your community, you need to raise your hand, buy some local champion, get with those individual community developers, or regional state reps, or whatever the elected official is driving that idea, and have a conversation to educate them about what this means and how you need to get plugged into that strategy, because you should be included in that strategic planning or research that's being done on how to create jobs. Number two, stronger partnerships and collaborations at the local level. And that's easy to say, but here's what I really mean by that. When these efforts are taking place, like, I don't know, this thing's being live streamed, so let me be mindful of that. Because I'm not always the most gracious about being the president now. I do love my job, and I love working as president, and we're passionate about what we do for a living. But there are communities that are not very good about creating collaborations and partnerships of not being inclusive. And I will bring up a couple of these examples. Even the, one of the super music blues festivals called Keith Diskett. Some of you may have come to Keith Diskett, and bridging the blues trails about the state efforts to really focus in on some international efforts that we're trying to do. One of the things that was important about that is about actually bringing everybody to the table to have conversations about why that's important to make investments in. Not only in the private sector, but the public sector, because the cities and counties were putting money in that taxpayer dollars into these efforts to help do that. But when your neighborhoods are crumbling, and you're worried about your schools that have been taken over by the state, and when you're at my footprint, 71% of the kids need remediation going into college. You gotta be mindful of that. And the other thing about that is, more directly, is that there are still issues of race in the south. It is real. It happens in the south, in the south, I don't wanna speak for other places. But as you can see in this election cycle in this country, we have a few issues with that. And we're scared to have that conversation. And we need to have that conversation. And so when I say partnerships and collaborations, we can't be afraid to do that. And we can't be afraid to recognize all of the cultural and arts and place-making opportunities that come, even in communities that sometimes are very scared to have that conversation engaged in the community. That's very important. Partnerships and collaborations. The other part of the collaboration piece real quickly is the business side of that, right? There is a direct link to the business community. This El Dorado project that I was talking to you about, a gap in the name of Madison Murphy. And Madison Murphy is from El Dorado, the county, a very extremely wealthy individual. Regardless of the project, as John and I was just talking, this was an amazing opportunity to bridge politics, to let arts and culture bridge the division in politics that we have, particularly in rural America. This is an individual you can Google. He's one of the biggest Republican contributors in the country. He's chairing this effort to make sure that these resources are raised because he sees the long-term potential of both the business side, raising the cultural awareness and engagement and participation is very important. And then third and lastly, the reality is that you gotta hold the investors accountable. What I mean by that is that we need more capital investment opportunities in the region to do these types of projects and they need to be tied holistically. And what I mean by that is that the resources that we're going after so it reminds me of this all the time. We are an underserved and under-resourced part of the country and we need more resources. But it needs to be tied to the overall holistic strategy for the community. It's not just about this particular investment opportunity. So advocacy, education, partnerships, collaboration and then you gotta just be tenacious to build on the resources. Just an responder, are you ready for your next question? Next question, all right. So, yes, I'm Sandy Curt, I'm from Kentucky. Yesterday you guys heard from another Kentucky and Joe Berry about a big announcement of jobs coming to the area directly linked to quality of life which was directly linked to creative policymaking which was directly linked to arts. In a small breakout session, I had the opportunity to share with everyone another story that was happening in the Promise Zone in Southeastern Kentucky which was Euro sticks, 90 jobs coming because the operating expenses in three different rural communities were equal in quality of life which equaled creative placemaking which equaled arts is what drove that decision. Now, both of us have got newspaper clippings, we're writing it down, we're sharing a story. But to get those examples since there's not that good qualitative source to be able to say economic developers, this equals jobs, okay? Hal, what is the best way we can get that story, these unique qualitative stories pushed out there and in the hands of people that can utilize them to be able to draw the quantitative analysis? Well, I think it's, again, thinking about your networks and thinking about those networks pretty expansively. So somewhere in this room, Jay Dick is hanging out but I can't see him right off, I know we all know he's here but if he's not here in a moment, he'll be back here in a moment. Use Americans for the Arts. They're a great resource, he's in your list of participants, one, it can help give you the larger context of the economic reality of the arts in your region and then you have a secondary story. But here for me is another piece and I'd be interested in Jamie and Jason's perspective and anyone here. We also have to understand that the newsmakers have changed, so you cannot send off a press release and expect that you will get any kind of coverage, maybe a two-liner, who cares? We did have a conversation that in small town rural America, those local weekly papers and again bi-weekly papers are desperate for stories and their stories will be 15 column inches as opposed to two, so leverage those resources and in the larger communities sometimes it actually takes sitting down, calling an editorial board and bringing in a collaboration of people, not just the arts people, but finding out who is the group, it's what Chris has said. So the economic developer with the arts person, with the policy maker, with the person who actually is likely to get a job or has a job and you go in and you talk about transformation, you talk about quality of life, because we've got to frame those kinds of stories because I don't know if anyone's looked at news steps on newspapers, but they are strong. There's like three people working for newspapers anymore, they pick their stuff off of news aggregating services. So you have to treat those news people very differently than you did even five years ago. And then look for other venues. So my reality now is that I work with the National Association of Counties. I suggest you talk to your county leaders, that's a really great story. That's something that county news would talk about and that goes to 40,000 places around the United States because I'm guessing what you're saying is it's a story for Kentucky, but it's a story for everybody because what you want I think is learning that goes on that people are reaching out. So framing it is important, not just in your reality, so for those people who care about numbers because I know Chris does, but we have to think that way because that's part of how you leverage it. So one of the places that NACO has gone now is with a massive amount of research on finance and on economic reality. There are some very deep realities, Chuck has brought them up. Foundation investment is somewhere around 5% in rural America. So when you're doing good, it is something to make sure Council of Foundations knows. The reality is that in America, about 50% of counties nationwide are still not back to 2008 status. And to frame this even more, there are over 3,000 counties in the United States. Of closing in on 80% of the population lives in about 130 of them. Do the math. There are 2,500 counties across the United States that look like the counties that many of you come from. And what do we know about them? Their resources are falling. Two thirds of the counties in this nation are spending significantly more than they were five years ago on public safety, justice, and opioids, and the result that comes from it. You have to frame this in a way that offsets it. We are giving people hope, a job, building more homes, because that is ultimately what's gonna offset some of the problems that we have with drugs. So you have to become a better storyteller. It's a great story, but reframing it and finding the partners that can tell it with you. I'll be very quick because it does really pretty much get everything. I just have three things. One was in the Department. It kind of comes out of the conversation that I got to be part of in the last week or so on immigration in rural and how to how to make rural places more inclusive. And so this is partly, these comments are partly in response to Bob's question, partly to your question, Sandy. And I think research is really important, showing what it means, what culture and arts mean to certainly economy jobs. Everybody gets that. They're always gonna want to know that. But what are other indicators that can resonate with the audience? You know, how to measure people, young professionals' desire to live in a particular place. There's ways to do that. There's best of all this all the time, right? I mean, they measure that stuff. And I think, and I know some of this is going, but it's already happening in a lot of the organizations already mentioned, but doubling down on that. From my experience in the last couple of state years in the administration, in a different community economic development policy roles, that movement towards data is, I mean, it's a whole other conversation about how I think rural is at a disadvantage in that conversation because of scale, all that. And we can maybe want to talk about that a little bit more. But, and I was in denial about the whole thing for a while, sort of personally, I thought, you know what, this whole conversation just doesn't apply to rural. We're just gonna have to make it, now it's gonna apply to rural. What we need to do is figure out how to make sure that the data, the metrics are informed by the rural reality. And that those who make decisions on that data understand the specific rural reality of less scale, you know, remoteness, et cetera. So research, one. Two is, you said this, but finding the right voice and the right channel, okay, comms 101 here. But here, in a lot of places, Chris, you talked about the business leader. A lot of times, the best voice on this is not gonna be someone who's in your regular circle. It is not gonna be an arts and culture advocate or professional, just a lot of times to really move the ball forward. So that collaboration, et cetera, even more important. The channel, and I'll jump right on to what you said that, you know, and you're from all these, you know, lots of you are from rural and you get this, but small newspapers and radio, they eat this stuff up, they've got holes to fill every day. Pre-content, be very strategic about the content, they will use the content. That's at the local level. You know, and then there's another question about millennial stuff that I'm not gonna get into. The final thing I'll mention about channels, and this is sort of right now Jason's comments, that in the rural sphere, very specific, but an important one for a lot of resources as we talked about, there is now a platform for stories like this. There is literally a call every month from the Community Solutions team that there's three or 400 people that have gone through the training that Jason talked about. Fats, who do work in the field or at headquarters, and we tell these stories. In fact, we're gonna tell some of these stories. The White House Rural Council was on the next call. We're the agenda, next call. But there is a, there's a, it's nice and rural. I've seen people who've had more. Yes, you have, yeah, you were, it's that, you know, the core, Lock-and-Standing participant. No, but now there is that virtual community that have been trained and we continue to provide content. So there, that's just a specific channel for the Fats. I didn't know, did earlier take any of them? Okay, you had another question back here then? There's one up front too. Yep, I'll pop back here. My name is Nancy Forrest. I come from about two and a half hours west of here from Madison County. The five on five? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't even like to hear. This question is for Chris. I'm looking to find a translator between paradigms. Okay, say that again. I'm looking to find a translator between paradigms. You said earlier that projects need to be presented in business terms. Well, I'm the exact opposite of business terms because in my county, we are, the Bullseye is Pope County where Des Moines is sprawling and has sprawled into every county except mine. But mine has got crosshairs on it big time with a data farm moving in and people crowing about tax space and all the jobs that are going to be created and all the development potential that's possible. The paradigm that I want to find a translation for is as I sit in the supervisors meetings, which I do and have done since March, all they seem to understand is the dollar metric, the Jewsite. I'm concerned about the land and the land resources. We were not glaciated. Therefore, we have many more species, native species, plant, animal, micro-thermets, bunch of them that cannot be found even 30 miles north of us. That metric, that measure of rural is not part of the equation and how can someone who wishes to advocate for that component of what I submit is primal, absolutely essential, fundamental, rural. How can that bridge the gap and be heard? You've probably just touched on one of the most important but yet dangerous questions. That we are asked as not only policy makers and investors, but economic development. In the true real sense of economic development, there's about 13 different areas that involve economic development. Everything from workforce training to cyber location, to infrastructure, all these things. But what you just hit on is the real core of what drives your economic development philosophy at the local level. Because you have competing interests. You have the state, you have the governor to drive his economic development strategy. That's about numbers being held back accountable to your next election cycle. You've got your state agencies that are trying to move the needle on economic development, which always centers around job creation and how many numbers can we communicate to the voters about the jobs we've created. And then third, you've got local interest that are also driving that because they want to be tagged with that. They want to be associated with that kind of job creation and progress piece. So the core for me is, philosophically, I would be in the pro-world side with caveats. And what I mean by that is economic development is a good thing, but not at the sacrifice of local treasures and assets that make you unique at the local level. And as an economic developer, well, me and y'all in our world of economic development, there's something called the IEDC, right? That's kind of the largest group that represents practicing economic developers. And there is a total of ethics for economic developers. And part of that is an environmental piece, but we all come to it a little bit differently, right? My very nature is that, hey, we can create jobs, create jobs, but not at the sacrifice of the local identity, local treasures, assets. That could be both natural resources. It could be human capital. It could also be, as it relates to the assets that you bring to the table. But the other thing that I would say that I do you real quickly is that I would look for the opportunity to quite frankly turn this back around on you and using what you want to advocate for with culture and arts. Now, it sounds like we're really talking about land issues and natural resources on this particular example, but where those issues in the environmental piece will get filtered out as the course of this process and there's nothing that can overcome advocacy and letting your voice be heard, particularly at the local level with your elected officials. And that goes back to the question that I was asked earlier. You have to capitalize on your voice and advocacy and let policy makers, elected policy makers at the local level know there is a constituency base that is together, that is connected, that is vocal. And if you don't do that, that project will run right over every day of the week as it relates to creative quality place making. Because the reality of it is that if that voice is not heard, the desire for job creation will take precedent every time. So as a strategy to push back on that, I would recommend doing one day use this opportunity, this prospect, this growth as a way to leverage your own interest by creating more arts and culture related activities. This is where you can really say, look, here is a platform to make this kind of project a focal point for our community. It helps with our rural image. It becomes the creative place for people to do activities in the local communities. These projects can be tied to that. So I'd actually not go into all the details. I try to look at this as a way to take advantage of a potential economic development project and tie what I'm trying to do with the creative placement. Use their own momentum and the attention that they're getting and tie what we're trying to accomplish from the arts and culture side to that effort. And use it as a way to demonstrate what you're trying to do by making this a centerpiece for the community. Trying to make sure that this is an opportunity for people to take really a great chance to come together and have a dual benefit by taking advantage of a traditional economic development project. I don't know if that helped or not, but. Any other panelists? I'd just say that I think that it's important not to fall into the place of either or. It is unlikely in the face of what you are doing that you will eliminate the development coming your way. But it's how do you segment it? And how do you find those critical natural resources and think about them soon enough that you do get to celebrate them and that you get to invest in them? And so as Chris noted, and I'll tell you a piece from my reality in Lynn County, when I went on the board, there was the potential at long of Highway 100 going to the West. It had been discussed for probably 30 years. And I ran on that as something perhaps foolishly that I thought that I could solve. And once I actually got on the board, I realized it was going to take out all that blood longer than I thought it would. There were some critical natural resources that were there that did need to be protected, but it didn't have to be at the exclusion of the highway. I was in office for 14 years and about three years before I ended, all the pieces finally came together for Highway 100. But also as a part of that, the Board of Supervisors bought an extra seven acres when we could from local people and added it to Morgan Creek Park. So we took hits on both sides. People who were incredibly pissed off in the environmental community. And on the other side, developers who were pissed off because we went on that side of town, we said, no, some of this has to be maintained as part. And we spent money to do that. So keeping in mind that your local elected officials have to be given the tools and the support to do good things. So help them see the possibility of success. That you're not there to just always say, no, no developing, this can't ever happen. It shouldn't be like this. I get it, I'm sorry. I was the land of KFOs, you know, confined animal feeding operations. Anyone who's from Iowa or North Carolina gets that. How do you balance that? That is challenging work. And it is not always the place that artists go, but anyone who is in museum work, I will tell you, asking those big questions is and should be the work of every museum via the historical society or organization in your county. Because those are the people that can drive those discussions. It will take more discussions than you think you can live through. And I believe it can be both, but it takes a lot of hard work. We can actually get a chance to get something out of this. Particularly if you know what's coming. You know what's coming. You know what's coming. I actually think this is a little bit different. This is what is about being engaged for long term. What is the vision of your community? What is the vision of your county? Where do you want your county to go? And it keeps the you, that's a bunch of people. And it has to be what is the process that you're gonna use to reach your objectives of what this kind of select. And you have to be engaged before they make the big decision about the big plant and the big road and the big water lines and the big movement of dirt. But it's being totally engaged and totally immersed. The challenge of that of course is we all have a lot of things to do. But in my experience as a child, I was a city council member. And... And it has been a while. Yes, it's been like 28 years or so. But it's really hard to say no to stuff. When people have these great ideas about how they're gonna do one of the things, sometimes they're not really good ideas. But the challenge is having a consensus around what's important in your county and your county. And being able to stick to that and work with that. Many years ago I was on a committee that looked at greenways in Eastern part of Pennsylvania. And Congress stood up and said, I want no more development in my county. I thought that was pretty radical. And the way he stuck to that, I was totally impressed by it. You later lost it on watching, but it kind of made more interesting for the state development agencies that I was trying to run. But it really is a process. It's a project, process of engagement. It's a process of addition, not division. And it's a process where it is a long-term commitment to a vision and to being able to stick to that vision over a very long period of time. And it's not easy to do. One more question. I'm gonna get a couple. Hi, my name is Slim, I'm an artist. And I really, well what would you say, this is kind of a conversation we don't really have in Chicago. And I'm really interested in specifically in how art can contribute to public safety and things that really matter to people, because I've done a lot of public art commissions and I'm just so tired of public art commissions that are about something rather than actually engaging with an issue and doing something. But I've started working on a project that has really caught fire. The mayor is behind it, the alderman's behind it, the business people are behind it. And it's to combine art with pedestrian safety and cyclist safety. But what I'm finding is that everyone's, even the Department of Public Affairs, everything, they're all looking to meet it. Yeah, come up with the ideas, come to the meetings, work for free. And I'm a self-employed artist and all of you right now sitting here with you in the room, you're getting paid for sitting here. Right now, I'm self-employed. I am not getting paid. I paid myself to come here. And I just want to know that you need the ideas of artists and I just want to know where, how we can be sustained and examples of how artists can be sustained as we are helping you with becoming the idea of farms and the things that you're building economic development on, the backs of, how do we sustain ourselves? So two things. One is specifically on the issue of public safety. At Art Place, we've actually commissioned a field scan and seated a working group that's looking at the intersections of arts and culture with public safety. And we've done that with LISC, the Local Images Support Corporation, because they're the national TA provider for the Department of Justice, Burn Criminal Justice Innovation Brands. So you can find all that information on our website or email me at our place america.org and I can put you in touch with it. In terms of the larger issue, one of the things that I've found to be fascinating and how it's ramped up over the last several years is the number of city governments that are actually putting artists in residence. So city governments were actually hanging artists to be that creative force and one of the ones that we love talking, a project that I love talking about is in St. Paul, Minnesota. An artist called Amanda Lovely went into residence at the Department of Planning. And one of the first things she took a look at was how the Department of Planning does community engagement, right? And we all know how they do community engagement. They host a meeting at City Hall at two o'clock on Monday, right? And the first of the pot hole and the gappy dog shows up and right on one happen. So what Amanda did, was she took a look at the city fleet of vehicles and she said, give me a van, right? And so she took that van and she retrofitted as a popsicle truck. So now whenever any city agency wants community input, they send the popsicle truck out into the community and if you answer three questions, you get a free popsicle. Then she was paced for that, right? She was actually in, that was a partnership between Public Art, St. Paul, and the city government. Minneapolis is doing a similar thing with intermediate arts where they're working with the mayor's office to put artists in residence. Mayor Garcetti in Los Angeles has put in artists in residence, specifically in the presentation, to take a look at issues of pedestrian death, Intervision Zero, work that LA is doing. Where I currently live and work in New York, we have artists in residence in veterans affairs, immigrant affairs, youth and community services and design and construction. So I think it's happening. I think we absolutely need to value and recognize artists as workers, the fair wage conversations, absolutely living wage conversations need to attach towards second. So yes, absolutely, there are examples of it and I'm happy to connect you with more, for if you want to share that with the mayor or with the department of local affairs as well. I'll just, yes. Put that onto that, that there are efforts to actually clarify what art should be paid for showing up at public meetings. I actually think you should pay people to come to public meetings, by the way, but that's just personally for me. We need to actually take artists to do some of those things. One of my hopes is that Rupri, as they build out their kind of assistance and folks like Neko who are interested in also teaching people about these practices, that one of the things that is included in that is, here's what it costs and artists should be paying. And so that is something that will hopefully happen through all this. I'll just say from the A.A. side, we are always looking at exactly what the artists are paying as part of any of our town projects and we're not gonna fund some of those pay artists enough. So that's just a simple way that we operate and we're hoping that more, as people can begin to understand what this work is and treat it seriously, I've been using the term like breaking the fever, that this is just sort of like this fluffy thing over there that you don't really know how to do, that there are true costs that there are people that know how to do this and there are real practices, that that clarification includes what it costs to pay an artist. Hi, I'm Nancy Van Milligan. I'm from the Community Foundation of Greater Dubuque and you guy, I want to be served eight more of these guys' poundings. Oh girl. Yeah, she is. And Chris, I want to say to you, I've been to Clarksdale and seen the wonderful creative place making that you've done there and I've stayed at the shack up in. So for all of you who are interested, you might want to check it out. My question is Chuck kicked this off and talked about access and equity and you've mentioned inclusion and participation and engagement and I've heard it all the way through at the Community Foundation, we're trying to do some really deep work around diversity, equity, inclusion and racial inclusion and immigration and find it to be very hard work and there are very few models and the models that we have looked at are typically urban. The Twin Cities have done some great work. We work with Gare, Seattle. In our city, we do inclusive Dubuque and have some great things that we'd be happy to share with you but as we go on into our counties, one thing we use is the heart to soul which some of you may have seen Jason's breakout session and that's really good at a specific community level but we'd really love to work with some others or find some resources about how to take the scale at a larger, like a regional area or how do you bring people together, engage, get them to participate and really talk about these tough issues. So I guess I'm just throwing that out as a comment. I hear a lot about it and it is so hard to do and it would be great in our smaller communities and smaller towns and regions if we had a way to learn from each other and learn from the place and take this to the next level. Yeah, I'll just jump in really quick. I'm sure I have a lot to say about this topic. I think one way we're viewing that at the endowment is that there's, this is an issue that goes far beyond what the arts can solve itself and I think the whole conversation about creating a place-making is how could arts work in service to many of these other issues and I think that the arts that in this particular issue are an amazing way to kind of build social bridging across society. It's a place where we can find common cause and be like, it creates spaces where we can create understanding amongst ourselves. That sounds fuzzy, but it actually does happen. And so I think, again, that clarification of what are those arts tools where can the arts be useful in those conversations is something we certainly want to spread around and be serious about it. I do think that there are a lot of organizations that are, you know, there's lists and lists and lists of organizations that are professional at how to create a safe space to have those conversations. There's nothing worse in going into one of those conversations when the crowd's not prepared to have a conversation. I've been in some of the different parts. I also want to add income diversity to the type of diversity we're talking about, especially in rural America. So yeah, I mean, I'm happy to share lists of organizations that kind of work professionally and also happy to share lists of kinds of artists that have experience and being in those spaces and handling them in a professional way. And Teresa, tell me if I'm doing this correctly, but let me try and get a commitment thing going. I think we saw some colleagues here who are connected with ELE, the Intercultural Leadership, in some ways the work of alternate roots, PAI, the First Peoples Fund, and now on. And I would love to try and broker a relationship among the community foundation community and ELE to see if we can bring some of their national work together with the community foundation. So if someone can post it that, I'm happy to work with Nancy and make connections with those other folks and see if we can do that as a concrete set. Perfect. You did just right. Woo! It's the only thing I'm playing on that, that I mentioned the conversation as part of the last week or so, and that has been community solutions team. So Janet, that group. They're kind of hosting a conversation around the support by Andy E. Casey Foundation. And I almost, it looked like sort of a scope. They know it's a really important issue. People are trying to figure it out. I think there's some stuff posted there. So there's already a NASA network kind of on that side too. So like, you know the most part. And another place that, because we spent a large number of hundreds for a time talking about art, we are sitting in the College of Public Health, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation has done an enormous amount of work in this space. So their culture of health work, I think provides a platform for those kinds of conversations. They look quite directly at social equity, the social determinants of health that are very significant. And even in aggregated information, if you look at it in the rural area, there are things that just deep out at you. So I would look at that. And honestly, Nancy, one thing that I would challenge is that in the River Foundations that are looking at disaster philanthropy, I know that piece of that question is something that I would challenge philanthropy in general to look at. Because the other piece that comes with disasters that makes them so exponentially worse is the equity problem. When there is a disaster, it by far impacts people of color, people of lower socioeconomic status can not respond. They do not have the same resources. So when we talk about building resilient, healthy, thriving communities, you can't divide without having that social equity question. So some of it is going to some of those other partners in driving the question. I think what we're seeing is this is really about different ways of collaboration and different ways of having conversations. We're gonna move to Jeff, but I know Chris has to catch up with me. I said I might take him. He has to tell his driver that he could go, but I could take him and then he could stay here for at least another 35, 40 minutes. So I know we have so many questions, you guys, and I know we have about five people lined up, and so I know if anybody has to catch the lights, I'm so sorry, but if we can keep you guys up here a little longer, is that okay? And then we'd like to give you a couple of minutes just to sum after that, but Jeff's got a burning question over here. It's not a bull impersonation, it's kind of gonna go quick. First things first, the issue of cash GDP versus long-term wealth in two sectors is critical for rural America. I wanna say that we have five or six professors from seven or eight universities, the one that Lincoln awarded this year from the secretary. We must build a miracle metrics that get our hard understanding of the cultural impact to overall wealth, income as a flow, wealth as a stock, culture of wealth as a stock. We're trying to build that. It's called a comprehensive or a wealth framework. Number two, to the issue that was just raised by Jamie, as part of our work with next generation, we are creating immediately after this a rural, intercultural council. I think it's absolutely critical that we do this. I wanna ask this question and I appreciate all the kind conversations about what group is done. We do hope we can go deeper on these issues. They take resources. I'm gonna be very direct. Can you give us some suggestions as a community for how we build sustaining resources to advance this community interaction, not project resources, sustaining structural resources for rural community and arts development? Do you have specific thoughts about that? This is the burning issue in this room. Chuck, I'm gonna bring up something that I know we've already talked about. I'm sorry that Ryan isn't here. I thought I saw Bill Menner still here. How many people in this, Tony's here, great. How many people here farm or have farms? Okay, the farm bureau has to be a part of this conference. Unless they only want to do the insurance business. And that has become a large part of their business. So if they want to anchor the farming community and if they want to welcome as Bill Sack has been an incredible advocate for getting young farmers back on the land, then artists have to have a conversation with people in the farming community. If we value this way of life, if we think it is important, if we don't want to see corporate farming grow to the point where it, like the ones become too big to fail, then we have to have those conversations. Because farmers in this country actually have quite a lot of money. Not all. Small family farmers, not so much. Large corporate farms have a lot of money. Income as a percent of assets is the lowest about that it's ever been in history. Yes, I get that. But I'm talking about a portion of the farming industry that we don't often talk too lit about. All farm prices are lower than they were in the Great Depression right now. I get that, but trust me, corporate farmers are still making up their mind. That's not on its face. Okay, we can maybe have that discussion later. I still think it's worthwhile to have those conversations because even to what you're bringing up is illuminating that we're not having the appropriate conversations with and about sustainability in our lifestyle. And so some of that has to be with partners. We're not always conversational. I don't know anything about farming, but I do know something about communities. The challenge I think that we all have is in developing, this is really about developing capacity for local communities and to the capacity of local communities to have a sustainable participation in the US community as an asset that helps them grow, helps them attract communities, helps them attract kids, keep their kids, and a part of their local economy. And in that process in developing that, it really is about engagement. It's about an engaging community and really is about developing strategies and plans that you can stick to over a long period of time. And you're not gonna have to hit a home run the first time up, you're gonna fail times. I think that one of the examples that we, that I like to look to, is Jennifer O. Tennessee, where they started with a store called the festival and they had somebody with big ideas that they didn't go out on a ticket to the world, they went out to the office, incredible facility, and they went and bought a lot of money from this guy, who was the A. And they failed from back then. They gave up. They went back and they reworked it and they went through bankruptcy and they kept their vision and kept their partners together and kept their community together. Their community was committed to this idea of being the storytelling center of the world, the international storytelling center. And keeping to that commitment and keeping to that community, that they moved from being bankrupt, they moved through bankruptcy, they paid off all their debts. And last weekend, they had 30,000 people in Jennifer O. Tennessee listening to storytellers from all over the world. And that's a secret here. It's not us. It isn't the federal government. It is the energy and creativity and imagination and the principle of the local community. And it's really our privilege to be able to interact in that and to invest in that. And to make sure that we're not investing in projects, but we're building capacity, capacity to sustain operations, to sustain visions so that our communities are rich places. So our responsibility is to be smart and to be demanding and be a pain in the butt. And sometimes they call it being, sometimes they talk about federal mandates. Well, yeah, sometimes. But that's, from my point of view, the secret source here, is being able to bring those two pieces of the puzzle together in a way that helps make sure a community is successful and to be able to help encourage and stem like that. But the real energy here is not, it's the real energy here is what you see, what I see in all the communities throughout the Appalachian. Well, I'll be really brief. The, from, so Chuck's question, how do you support this infrastructure on a sustained way? I don't know of sort of the perfect pot of money out there that this fits perfectly for. To Linda's point, there's private sector, there's philanthropic and then there's public resources. All three of those should be looked at. They all have an interest in this. It meets their different missions. The more that, and this is really to Earl's point, the more that the case is made that this meets a mission, whether it's the public mission, a private economic growth mission or a philanthropic mission, the more successful that attempts to get the resources to build this. I mean, I wish I had like, oh, I know where this is and there's a whole bunch of it and you just need to ask in the right way. I don't know that there is that right now, but there definitely are different resources that exist to support a piece of this. So, not wholly satisfactory, Chuck. Which is not uncommon in our conversations. You know, Chuck, one thing that we can't think about it, we've been thinking about this for a while at DRA. You all have kind of motivated me, even during my fourth quarter here, to make sure that we do a better job of institutionalized this. Because I firmly believe as a practitioner that the creative place makes incredible, powerful and effective tool for local rural communities to improve their situation. I firmly believe that, at my quarter. And so, so much so, we're gonna go back to Justin Birch, who's our senior project manager at DRA. We're gonna go back and we're gonna see how we can actually dedicate a full-time FTE to this effort. It's obvious that I've got the ability to do that and we're gonna go back and do that. We're still going to, and we've talked about this in some of our community solutions, trying to institutionalize that as well. But one of the things we're gonna continue to do in working with the governors, just like with the ARC, the governors are a big part of our structure, of making sure that they understand that we wanna continue to make this a priority for our investment. So as projects are being reviewed, one of the things I get to do as FCC is set those federal priorities, which is step one in getting DRA investment. And this is going to be, that we're going to put EEC to make sure they think it continues to be a federal priority for DRA. So those are two things that I think I can contribute. Sure, I mean, I think from our perspective, what number one, how rad is that that he wants to hire someone? It's like, yes, from my perspective, as community and rural development grew as a field, I got more professional as of the last 50 years cultural policy was on the side. And that everything we've been doing through the semper is to try to bring how those two worlds align. And that is not gonna happen overnight. And I think that the resources will start to appear more as the people who fund and understand community development and rural development well understand, again, I'm just gonna repeat myself, like, what are the standards of practice? How does this work? And what is its benefit? And the more that that is clear and that people know what that stuff is, the more that you'll be able to easily get someone say, this is exactly what this is and how it works. People will be more, the coalition of people who are actually trying to do community development the right way, which is, I don't have any numbers on that, but it's not everyone in America, I've worked in economic development too, I know they're just like, let's just bring in the business kind of job fishing stuff. But the people who are trying to do it the right way, those are the people who are trying to convince that this stuff matters, and the more the bigger the matter, the more the funding they're gonna put into it. That's what sustaining looks like. And I think the feds are pretty good to go right now and that's pretty rock and roll on the state level, it's getting better and locally, I think many places do get it, but the more the people on the outside of the arts understand that this stuff is important and how it works, the more they're gonna start putting it into it. That's what sustaining looks like to me. So my goal is like 50 years from now, every community and all the person just knows how to do this stuff, like knows what it means to hire an artist. That's success to me. And just the thing I'll add is the philanthropy token on the panel, I'll speak from a fundraising point of view, which is I think we need to hold philanthropy accountable for the outcomes it's trying to drive and get them to be tactic agnostic, right? So if the thing that magically created the 90 jobs was an arts intervention, they shouldn't care that it's an arts intervention, they shouldn't care that it created 90 jobs and we should go after job creation funds. And so I think separating outcomes and tactics is really important in terms of the fundraising and I'm happy to talk more with anyone about that. I think that exact same thing is true, so I'm gonna fix it. I'm gonna work with those. It's true for like economic development offices. I mean, one of my jobs was to work, I was the first ever creative economy person hired into a state economic development office. And it was like, there was a lot of like, what the heck is that stuff? And I was like, well, Massachusetts just passed a billion dollar in life science's job. There's actually less jobs in life sciences than there were in the design field in Massachusetts and we had no billion dollar fund for design jobs. But it took showing that we had the same number of jobs, how those companies grow differently from a different kind of company and creating actual like economic development tools that actually work for our field. And those tools don't exist in a lot of places, right? The tax credits, all the things for economic development that are built are for manufacturing and other fields that we know how to support and have supported for a while. So the more we can tell people, hey, this is how my business grows differently. And I love this, this RAPLM in New Mexico that's trying to support creative businesses. She says, we keep being so modest. We keep saying, well, maybe my creative business will grow to be 30 people someday. Why can't it be a 3,000% business someday? And why are we not talking about what it would mean to do that? And so we got a lot of ways to go but there's some seriousness which we've never talked about. Great, and we have two, we're highly aiming and then we're going to need to wrap. And I know that everybody, there's a lot of questions out there and we'll figure out a forum of how we can get those questions distributed so we can get more responses. So Kari, why don't you go next and then we'll go to Amy. Thanks to you too. Can you guys hear me? Thank you guys. She's been out there for a long time. You're being a resource to us. So those of you who know me know that I do a lot of research for living. There is very limited funding available to conduct the kind of research that you're talking about that would actually advance case making, that would advance place-based policy, project efficacy, this kind of experimentation and even less when it comes to understanding the rural differential when it comes to culture. So again, very specifically, where should we start looking for support to create the kind of evidence that's needed to shift practice because there's very little. We have a research fund out. I mean, we did create a research fund a few years ago. I would also say that from the evidence-based side of the meeting, say, the subject for a while, we are doing a project to try to evaluate the 325-hour-tall grants. And it's part of that we're actually trying to figure out what are the tools, indicators, evaluations, systems that people could use on the ground to show proof of success with these kinds of projects. Because we know everybody has trouble with trying to show that. So our place is working at night, because he's working on that. There's a journey of many funders looking at, and this isn't, again, not true, not just for the arts, people working on place-based, but how does any place-based investment truly show that it's achieving some kind of outcome that someone could care about? That's a difficult thing. How does a $50,000 arts investment, how do you truly scientifically prove that that was the thing that moved the needle somewhere on crime or something like that? So we're working on that, is what I can say. I think there's a serious effort now trying to figure out what that stuff looks like. I think when we get on the other side of that, sort of selfishly looking at how can we do it ourselves first, we're gonna have some conversations about what do we produce that's useful for the field itself that people can replicate and they use, and then what else can we, where do other investments need to happen? That's gonna be about a 10-month process for us to even get through the first phase of that. So it is coming soon, what would say? The thing that I might add is I think it's important for us to remember that not all research is created equal and that there are at least three kinds of research that I've seen regularly sort of muddled up together. And I like to think of them as the, how did we do the wait, what just happened, and the why, what we want, right? So the sort of how did we do is project-based evaluation, right? My project is trying to do something. I wanna know if I did it and how well I did it, right? That's one kind of thing that's very much between the funder that's funding the project and the entity that is doing the project, right? That's gotta be the basis of that. So wait, what just happened is where I think a lot of our research lives, which is looking at the externalities of the project. Someone is trying to do something. I'm creating a storytelling festival. I am doing that in order to share stories and create a community of storytellers. It happened to have a giant economic impact, right? So there was this externality that happened. And we need to do that. That's in some ways a purist research because that's going out there and sort of investigating what happened. And then the why won't you love me is the kind of work I think we need for our 5.5 colleague, which is there's something I wanna do. I know it is the right thing to do and I wanna make someone fall in love with it and give me resources to do it. And that is a very specific kind of storytelling that I think in the art space, we get a little mixed up because artists, when they're telling an art story, care about the story, right? They wanna polish it, they wanna make it a jewel and they wanna make it perfect and then share it with the world. The kind of storytelling we're talking about that's case making, that's advocacy, that's lobbying actually has to start with the audience. Who am I talking to? What is it they care about? And how can I connect with that to get them to do the thing I want them to do? So I think we also need to be clear about what kinds of research we're talking about because different kinds of resources will then get unlocked in different ways to roll it out, et cetera, et cetera. So I might just add that. Great, and we have one more question with Amy and then we'll get a little time to, do you guys any closing comments and then Chuck's gonna react. So Amy, why don't you go over there? Okay, hi, my name is Amy Demmer and I live in Grand Marie, Minnesota, which is on the Canadian border. And we live in a really remote town and we are very, very fortunate that our community has messed it in the arts for nearly a hundred years. So we are an arts destination and we have the highest per capita number of artists in the state of Minnesota live in my Cook County, which is 3,300 square miles and there's 5,000 people there. And they're busiest in February. We are now, we are the richest economy and we are now busier in February than in August because of our creative educational opportunities that people love to come and visit. So we are really fortunate. We are land blocked by the Sea of Lake Superior, the boundary waters, the Canadian border, one road in. So 5% of our land is developable and the rest is public. So what's happened with our investments and our quality of life and our artists and our entrepreneur businesses is gentrification. Gentrification, so we're talking rural and we're talking gentrification in my community. And so the question is, what do we do when we make these investments in a community and how do we think a hundred years down the road? We heard Nick, sorry, we're talking about 30 years. We want people, they're gonna be moving out of the epicenters of urban areas. We want them to move into rural. But how do we maintain a place where our artists can afford to live as well? We have the highest number of artists per capita in the state but the lowest average wage is $18,000 a year and we have the same cost of living as the Twin Cities. Average home prices are $300,000 to buy a home. If you want running water, you have to pay $200,000. So this is a major thing that my community is tackling with. We are so lucky at EPA. We've been working on a year-long planning process to create the next generation of arts economy and to attract and retain artists into our community as our number one business diversification strategy and investment and I'm so grateful for that buy-in but I still continue to think about and struggle with as we look to all of these communities and rural areas that are investing in arts and the quality of life in our people which we know is good and it comes from who we are and where we live and who we want to be but how do we protect that for the future? Jettification, equitable development, whiteening round go. So what I would just say is I would love to follow up with you more deeply after the panel is over but there are a number of places that are actually now creating equitable development frameworks. So PolicyLink has done one. The environmental protection agency actually has an extraordinary one that they offer through a TA program. The Elephant Street Bridge Project in Washington, DC is working with the Urban Institute to attach indicators and metrics to that. So I would love to follow up after this with some very specific resources and I won't try now to attack the larger issues. That's the answer and the other answer is what you're doing. That's to be able to sit down, think about, work through the issues today that are gonna hit you in the next five or 10 years is great and as opposed to these are things that are happening next week. It's actually also the other issue we had over here about it's being engaged long-term, committed to a division and figuring out the mechanics of how you're able to achieve that. So congratulations. That's a challenge we all would like to have. Wonderful. Well, why don't we just go to any closing comments that does anybody have anything they wanna share before we bring Chuck up to wrap? This has been amazing. I'm so glad you're all here. Don't give up. We are absolutely dedicated to continuing to help you all build up the work that you're doing and also try to build a national support system and policy framework for your work with them. So keep on, can I, we're live streaming, I should. Go out there and kick some ass. I'll do it anyway. I'll do it anyway. I'll just say this has been an amazing couple of days. I love that this conversation has started and I look forward to continuing with everyone. The arts are really important in all of the Appalachian economy. It's not necessarily something that smacks you in the face every day but there's places like Maine to Ohio that has 20 galleries and 300 arts, working arts. We have the Jonesburg experience. We have the Black Mountains in the western of Carolina with the Made America group and of course incredible work in Pennsylvania and also in New York. And the challenge that we have in moving forward is keeping this conversation and bringing this conversation up from underneath just a holler, but in new forms like this. The commitment to work at the State Act and the State USDA Development Directors are really important partners. The engagement of the land grant schools who do the research are important partners. And there are a lot of elements out there to build on. And what I would say and what I would hope is that we continue the conversation. We build on the assets that we have. We build this movement the same way you build local movements. It's all about taking the steps, having a plan and working that plan. So it's great to be here. I really appreciate the opportunity. I'm gonna go next because I have to duck out. I do wanna take the opportunity to thank, first of all, all of you who have made the time and the space in your worlds, in your job and with not earning money. I also wanna thank Chuck and Theresa and all the folks at Rupri again because Chuck has been a visionary in this and he has also been generative and iterative in this work, seeing the future of it, staying committed to it. And that I think is oftentimes unique in our environment. Naco is really pleased, I think, to be able to do some of this work and with the Americans for the Arts and with others. For me, it is such a gift to be able to go over the course of a career and still find myself involved in the arts. And so I just applaud the work that people are doing. I wish people got speed on their travels home. And I have to tell you, this is the stuff that gives me so much hope for what can be in spite of what this next month will be. Thank you again to Arturo, Rupri, University of Iowa, the ARC and USDA. So, you've heard this like seven times, I can do it in a minute, you should take it in five minutes. It's about, in this work in the last seven years I've got to travel to 40 states doing rural economic, community economic development. The best trips are those that I get to go out for a couple of days and be in a couple of regions across the river to the other state or just across the hill to the other region. And the difference in rural places can be kinda startling, that place that's stopped isn't moving forward, it's looking backward, versus that place that is moving forward, where there's energy, where there's hope, where there's a plan and people collaborating working toward the plan. And there's things happening and on paper, before I got there, you look at those two regions and I looked at those two regions and their economic history, their assets, their educational, their demographic, they're pretty much the same place until you were there and they were two totally different places. And the question obviously, what's the difference and really the difference, it is people. And it's not, it is people in general, it is really in these rural places, it's usually one or two or three people who make that choice to be a social entrepreneur, to take risks, to bring all of the tools that they have, Ken Ken Mustard, all their time of talents in collaboration and sharing and generosity to move the community forward. And there's a lot of those people in this big room right now. So thank you, keep doing what you're doing and then, I'm sorry, the last thing I want to say. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. Is that, I mentioned in my little personal story when I opened it, it's happening, right? I mean, this conversation about the future of rural places and the cultural asset as an integral and essential part, it's not like a dream, it's happening, it's happening. Today, you think even five years ago, having this as part of a big part of the conversation on rural community economic development, frankly, it was not, nothing I would have thought of or dreamed of. It just, it wasn't there. And the degree of participation from the federal government for rural development and from NEA and from others, it's real, it's there. In the Obama administration and in the White House Rural Council, we have positioned the work, the place-based work so that it can continue, it's up to you whether it does. And not only is it happening, but it matters, it matters so deeply, not only to those rural communities. But to that national conversation, and I'm not gonna go there, check. Hey, now he's out of here. That, you can go up there. But that, that hard conversation that we're all observing and part of that's happening right now, it's important every place in this country, I will argue it's more important in rural places in what, what you're doing is a critical piece of it. It is happening in, it can only happen in your communities. So thank you so much for being part of that and leading it. And thanks. We've already stepped to the pole. I think it is so wonderful that we have a man like that in the domestic policy council of our country every day to make this happen. It is so important. Two last things. Thank you for those of you that have started to work together. Look at those white sheets. They're cards, they're ideas. Unfortunately, there are more white sheets over here that aren't built. David has requested that we all do something I think is very cool. David, you and your community, we wanna thank you so much for your great work all week. We're gonna live with this event for another year because of the great work of how. Let's give them a great round of applause. How would we know if we're successful? In 10 years, some of you can say, I participated in the Next Generation Summit the first time in Iowa City. If we build a movement, you will have a place that will never go away as a family. There is no way, Matt and I and our teams, the University of Iowa, USDA, DRA, the Group ARC and our many funders can thank you enough. For those of you that we weren't able to support, but you came on your own, thank you. There's so many of you. Our commitment is to work very hard however we can with the limited resources we have, with the little boat we have and it's really big ocean to keep happy. It's just been a tremendous, tremendous honor to serve you. I help us understand how we can do that better. We don't know right now. We want to be there. David has a great idea in closing. Since this will be the landmark moment in the movement you're building, David would like to chronicle it. The bus is waiting for this. Could we all go fairly immediately to the first floor and David will take a picture of this community together down on the first floor where you came in so we'll live forever. Then we can come back and have face-to-face round table discussions. Did I miss anything? The bus will wait. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Say Travel Sound.