 Good morning and welcome to the sacam filming of stories of students and segregated schools. We'd like to welcome everybody for being here today. We have an esteemed panel of guests who will be sharing their experiences with the educational system here in San Antonio and in other parts of Texas. You know, when we think about oral histories, they are important because they give us an opportunity to reflect on the memories and experiences from firsthand account of things that have happened in the lives of our community. We have an opportunity to capture unwritten history of not only the struggle, but also the resulting achievements. People who may not have otherwise written a book or taught a class now get to be heard. We also want to do these things so that we can gather, preserve, gather and preserve the voices and the memories of a community and provide a resource for generations to come. So we want to thank, sacam wants to thank the various partners that we have that are associated with this, that being now cast, the 100 Black Men and the Van Cortland Foundation. We are excited to hear what has to be said and we look forward to this grand event. And at this time I will pass the microphone to our esteemed moderator. I like that statement esteemed moderator. Good morning. My name is Leonard E. Lawrence. I am not a native San Antonio. I came here in 1969 through the United States Air Force and I plan to leave as soon as I could. I was going to return to my home in Indianapolis, Indiana, going to private practice and get rich. I am a child psychiatrist and a general psychiatrist and I figured the people in Indiana needed me more than the people in San Antonio. That was 52 years ago that I came here and I am very pleased that I am still here and pleased with the opportunity to be a part of today's interaction. And I am going to now ask each of the panelists individually to tell you who they are. Joan, you start. Good morning. My name is Joan Hartfield Duncan. I am a native San Antonio. I have been here all of my life. I grew up on the east side and attended CUNY Washington Elementary Schools and Douglas Junior High School and graduated as valedictorian of the class of 1957 from Phyllis Wheatley High School. I am just delighted to be here and to know that we are going to get some of the most interesting stories some of you have heard from this locality. Generally Houston and Dallas are ahead of us but thank goodness we have these wonderful scholars with us who have now brought our attention to what existed in San Antonio, Texas over the past decades. Mr. Scott, thank you very much. My name is Samuel Scott Jr. and I am also a native San Antonio born on the east side of what we used to call Denver Heights and attended CUNY Elementary School. Douglas at that time they were called junior highs and Phyllis Wheatley High School class of 1961. I have a little cap here to give you an indication about Wheatley High School founded in 1932. I was not in that class but I did graduate in 1961. From an established family on the east side my father ST Scott Sr. actually was principal of Douglas when I was there and eventually became principal at Wheatley and then served under San Antonio Independent School District Board. My mother was an elementary school teacher and taught at a number of schools around San Antonio and even outside San Antonio. So both my parents were educators and we both grew up on the east side in Denver Heights and like to reflect back and think of it as a village where everyone that lived in that community made a very big effort to support the youth of the community. It was like one big family and we were fortunate enough to have in that part of town a number of teachers that lived in the community, a few doctors, a lawyer, professionals we had people that we could look up to and they could easily reach out to and we got in trouble they reached out to us because if we did something wrong our parents would know it by the time we got home. And I think that's something I reflect back on now and I'm not sure that situation exists in today's world but I think we all benefited from that during our early years and you're going to talk more about that later on. Thank you very much. Mr. Cook. Good morning. My name is Lemuel Cook. I'm a native of San Antonio. I was born and raised. I went to Dunbar at Grant Elementary School on the west side as well as Dunbar Middle School. Then I went on to Jefferson High School here in San Antonio. Upon my graduation I went to college at Trinity University and graduated from there. Played a little semi-pro football with the Sandwich on your toe road. I indulged in a lot of different capacities. I was a military veteran as well. And I'm a school teacher like I say for 46 years. It's pretty much, I've come from a large family of seven. It was two girls, five boys and we were a close knit family. And that's about my livelihood itself much. But like I say I taught at school for 41 years. It's kind of interesting. We all attended quote segregated schools. What did that mean to each of you that you were attending a segregated academic system? And even one of you can start. You know, I can truly say that for me it was a blessing. I realize that now. Because that particular part of my journey I think is what gave me the confidence, the strength, the courage, even the knowledge. That I might not have received had I been in an integrated school at that time. My teachers, I remember each and every one of them. And I cannot say that any one of them was what I would call a bad teacher. I mean they taught you not only academics but they taught you about life. Life skills were taught in the school. And schools and churches and families had the same value system. And so what I learned at home was strengthened by what I learned at school and what I learned at church. All of that going together. I don't think I would have become the confident, especially black woman, that I am today. Had I not had that kind of support in my life, I look at young people today and wish for them. And I have taught for over 40 years in integrated schools. And I know that our children did not receive the support that I received. When you entered that segregated school, what did you think you were about to embark upon segregated school? That was, I'm being very honest with you to say I did not, I did not even factor that into my psyche. Do you know why? Why? I'm asking you if you know. I don't know. I mean it was not part of, I'll go back again to a little bit of what I said yesterday. I think San Antonio had sort of a unique situation in that I did not know I was supposed to be disadvantaged or deprived of whatever. There were business owners. There were a ton of educators here. Well educated people. I want to really brag on them. Most of the people that I knew, and I'm sure that Sam knew, were homeowners. And those who were in public housing were just temporary residents. They came in, up and out. And everyone was on an upward bound trajectory, really. Mr. Cook, what did entering a segregated school, when you were six, seven years of age, what did that mean to you? Well it was meant to, like she was mentioning, it was like before a family situation. When you were in a segregated school, the teachers were like your own parents. What you learned at home, and you got to school, it was actually the same thing, it was reinforced from what you taught at home. So they were like family when we got to the school. They cared about you. They wanted you to excel. And that transformed throughout my life. So our teacher was like a parent to us. And we were always safe at school because we knew that if we did something wrong, parents are going to know about it. Mr. Scott, did you ever go into downtown San Antonio before you started school? Yes, I did. I was just thinking back and reflecting. I agree with the nurturing aspect at the segregated schools. But we at that time, when I was growing up in the city of San Antonio, you had opportunities to branch out to a certain extent. There were certain days of the year that we were allowed to go to the symphony. Other times the reflecting back on most recently on Juneteenth was the one day of the year when we could go to Playland Board, which was the main amusement park in San Antonio. And that was the only day out of the year that blacks could go there. And we were just as happy as we could be. Our high school, Phyllis Wheely High School, had very good athletic programs, as Mr. Cook will remember, and a good football team. But everything about high school football in Texas is weekend, Friday night. Phyllis Wheely was given Wednesday night to play at Alamo Stadium, which was the stadium for the San Antonio Independent School District. And what high school plays in the middle of the week? It has to go back to class the next two days, but Phyllis Wheely did. And the teams that were traveling to San Antonio didn't particularly like that, especially as they were coming from far away, like Houston and Austin and Waco and so forth, to come down in the middle of the week and have to go back. But these are things that I look back on, and I didn't think much about it at the time. I didn't realize that we were being subjected to some of the worst aspects of segregation. But we, at the same time, were moving forward and doing the best that we could under adverse circumstances. And I think that was the main thing that I look back on is that even with those adversities, we were able to achieve and move on forward. Allowed to go to Playland Park. Allowed to go to a museum. Allowed to interact briefly outside of the all-white black community. Wouldn't that mean to each of you that you had to be allowed to do those things? It was kind of like being restricted, not allowed to be, you know, say isolated. You know, it made me feel like I was a prisoner in a sense. I can't go here, I can't go there, I must have mission to do this and permission to do that. We were not given that opportunity like the others, but I had to learn to accept what was done and kind of grow on it. It just wasn't a good idea for, you know, situation. When I lived in a little place called Seymour, Indiana. Southern Indiana, halfway between Indianapolis and Louisville. Black population was in one corner of the town. We were not allowed to go downtown only on Thursday evenings. Other than that, you could not, by your own volition, interact with non-black populations. Did you ever get frightened by the fact that if you made a mistake, you might be punished in some way? You know, I think frightened is maybe not the exact word I would use, but I think there were certain instances when we felt that because of a certain incident or an exposure, you realized that you did not have the same type of facilities, the same type of resources that were available to other students in the community that attended white schools. But at that same time, I know my first experience was participating in the brave roof league as a young baseball player. And it was really the first time to be, I was the only black on the team. It was my first experience in Iraq with teammates. And they made a special effort to welcome me, and I was somewhat surprised because we had never, we kind of been insulated from that kind of thing growing up at an early age. But they were more than welcoming, and I'll come on and do this and do that. And you had to think about it as a reflect back on it. I think it was an attempt at being genuine. I don't think it was false, but it was a new experience for them, and at the same time it was a new experience for me. So I think we both recognized that there could be something that could come out of that that was positive that we both could benefit from. And I think those are the little steps that I remember taking away from a totally segregated situation in the neighborhood that was primarily African American and beginning to venture out. And you use the term when we are frightened or when we are afraid. I don't think so. I just think it was something different and new. And we had to kind of brace ourselves that wasn't going to be something that would be embarrassing. And the more it turned out not to be that way, the more satisfied we were. I think I thought of two incidents that made me more aware of what was going on. One was going over to Jefferson High School and realizing that they had scientific equipment like every child had a microscope, whereas we had so many per table. I do remember that. And the other thing that I think was my best experience, I guess I should say with integration, was through the Girl Scouts. I became a Girl Scout in second grade. And while it was a segregated system, as I was growing up it became more and more integrated. And we had two separate camps. They had one that had cabins and whatever. We had temps. The final analysis was that we became better Scouts because we had to have more survival skills than they did. So when the first National Girl Scout Roundup was convened, two black girls were part of the Alamo Patrol. And that was a very, very encouraging experience I guess in terms of how will you act. And we lived together for like two weeks in Michigan. Another point since the conversation. We're talking about materials. We're not giving updated materials. For instance, textbooks. I remember the teacher saying we got our textbooks. We didn't get from the state that we're not providing the black schools when I was in junior high school with the updated textbooks that other schools would have in the Anglo schools. So when I was at Dunbar, I remember a teacher mentioning that we have hand-me-down books that we receive from the state from Jefferson High School. Jefferson High School would get new books and then the books would hand me down from those high schools, Anglo high schools, and give them to the black schools. So we didn't ever have brand new books. And in spite of those teachers, bridge that gap. Whatever was missing, they bridged the gap. I think beyond just one point, beyond, not just education in schools, but other organizations such as you mentioned, Girl Scouts, Bart Scouts. And the one that is very dear to me is the YMCA. Yeah, sure. Davis Scott, YMCA. Scott was my S.T. Scott singer and was my dad. And he made a special effort as an educator and also as a very dedicated supporter of YMCA. And he traveled around and saw different YMCA's around the city. And he said, we have to do something on the east side, because what we have was a very substandard facility on Commerce Street called Alamo Branch YMCA. So, Odie Davis, the other person's name for it, and my dad made a serious effort over many years to fundraise to support the establishment of a new facility that the east side of San Antonio could be proud of. And that was the name for him and about a week later, unfortunately, he passed away. But he was so proud of the fact that that facility was built and it had his name on it. And it was something that the east side community could be proud of. And so in addition to education and the school system, there are other elements that came into play in terms of segregation and inferior status that the black community had. When I was in the year 1941, when I was four years of age, we lived in the projects in Indianapolis. And my mother took me into a department store. In that department store, there was a bin of stocking caps. A four-year-old kid reached up, picked up a stocking cap, and put it on. The manager was immediately there asking for payment. The manager, you're okay, didn't know that if you were black and you tried something on, you just bought it. My mother just had enough money for us to ride the streetcar 26 blocks back to the projects. All the way back, 26 blocks walking, I'm going to whip you when we get home, boy. I prayed, Lord God, make her forget. We walked into our fourth floor apartment. She immediately went to the bathroom and that razor strap that hung on the back was in her hand. And pretty soon it was applied to different locations of me. And she would always ask me in mid-stroke, do you understand? Do you understand? And before I got a chance to say, yes ma'am, she got me again. She got me again. She was encouraging survival whenever one of us ventured into a non-accepting predominantly white community. Have any of you ever experienced being punished in order to keep you out of trouble in a non-segregated arena? Being punished so that you would be prepared and know how to act in a non-segregated arena? Yeah, I think, I don't know, punished is the right word. I think we were growing up, were constantly made aware of the fact that if you are going into a non-segregated environment, you were going to be breaking the ice, you would be kind of cutting edge. And you knew that you had, you were told that you were going to be expected to be better, to excel. One of my senior here really, the summer of the senior year, I made a special effort to take two classes at Bracken Ridge, which was the white high school and reasonably in that part of town. And I was just surprised at how easy it was. I mean, I was so prepared. You were so prepared. And that was what, you know, I made straight A's on every exam. I said, is this what the white school is all about? And I said, well, if it is, I know that my preparation over the last 11 years or so has been outstanding, because I didn't feel intimidated. I felt that I could achieve and I could excel as well or better than anywhere else in that class. So I think that was reassuring for me. And it was something I had to do, just to prove a point. And I was happy that the way it turned out. My freshman year at Trinity University, I think that's something that, you know, everyone was... Oh, Michael, I'm sorry. Is it on? Yeah, it's on. Okay. At Trinity University, when we graduated, that was one of the schools that was offering really a very good scholarship and took advantage of it. I think that's probably like the state scholarships that you get for the valedictorian, but everyone was reminding me of how difficult that was going to be. Breaking the ice at Trinity. But like Sam, I had that same, I was so well prepared. That's why I keep going back to those black teachers that I had, because when I did get into those areas with integration, I was not underprepared in spite of the fact that we did not have everything that everyone else had had. I think that was... I think it continued on beyond educational experiences as we get into our careers. I'm a retired foreign service officer. And the State Department is probably one of the most non-integrated government entities that exist in a very small number of minorities. But again, you continuously throughout your life, you felt that you were prepared based on some of the foundational experiences that you had growing up, going back to segregated schools and having to make it with minimum resources. And that carried on to your lifestyle and your life experiences and your career. And I think it wound up positive for me. I mean, I was able to confront, no matter what situation, I'd say that I can make it because of some of the early childhood experiences that you had experienced and had to excel in with minimum resources. I know some of the challenges that our teachers expose us to. The type of...in the black school, we had to learn how to think on our feet. Learning how to add without using paper and pencil. You had to, for example, we'll say two plus two is simple, but, you know, like, what's time 15 times 15? Right. So would you have to say, well, I know five times five is 25, and then five and one is just...and then it comes out to 225. You could figure that out in your head. And you could still do that. The teachers taught you how to figure how to multiply in your head. Yes. When I got to high school, all that stuff, when I was taught in middle school, I felt like a genius because they taught us really well to be able to think on our feet. I tell you. And then I get to class and say, why aren't you opening up your book on certain situations? Why aren't you looking at your book? And I say, I've already learned that. That's something I've already learned. They say, well, well, well. That transition from elementary school to high school is a very important time. Now, of the three of you, two of you were in all black high schools. Mr. Cook was in Jefferson High School, as I heard it, which was the elite, elite non-black school at that time. Right. You just described how your academic preparation and the commitment of your teachers in elementary school really prepared you for the battle, so to speak, that one sometimes confronts in the high school arena, especially in those days. For the two of you who went to predominantly black schools, was there any difference in the approach that your teachers in that transition process used from that that Mr. Cook experienced? No, I can't speak from his experience because I did not attend a predominantly white high school. But at the junior high and high school, as we said earlier, I think the key aspect that we both probably remember is if you had to define it, I would define it in terms of nurturing and understanding that the faculty had about what the student experiences were, not just in the classroom, but in the community, in the household. And that's something I'm not sure if he experienced that at Jefferson, I would doubt that he did, where a teacher would understand what it's like to go up in the black community. But if you had a teacher in high school who lived in that community, who also had children that grew up in that situation, beyond the X's and O's and the science and the academic aspect, you had a certain nurturing aspect that you knew you could go talk to that teacher. And that teacher would receive your conversation, receive the conversation in a way that made you feel better and probably made the teacher feel better. Your families were very important in your preparation for the entire academic experience. What role did your families play in emphasizing your need to pay attention to your teachers, your need to be cooperative with your teachers, your need to follow their lead? My parents were quite strict. My parents never went to high school. My father was a great level of three, and my mother was a great level of four. So they were strict on education, learning. I had older brothers and sisters, like I was a sixth child. So a lot of the educational part came from my older siblings. They were like parents because, like I said, they were a lot older than I was. So to keep me up to date with education and to do well, that was my older siblings that kept us in mind because my parents, like I said, never graduated from elementary school. They were laborers who had to go out and do work, so they take care of the family. But like my older brother's siblings, they were actually my parents helping me with my education. Discipline, the parents took care of that. That was no problem. They made sure that you did the right thing, said the right thing, and respect others. So that was a combination of both, you know, parents as well as my older siblings. I think in the African-American community, you see that's one side of the story. Then you see the other side. My parents were educated, both of them. But it's a generational thing. I think my father's father and my mother's parents were not. And the emphasis that my grandparents placed on education, and I didn't know them, but I heard the stories that you, my parents were told that because they didn't have those benefits and that education, they are going to get it. And I think the same thing happens now with those of us in this generation. We all want our kids and our grandkids to achieve and to have a better life than we have. I mean, that's just human nature. And I think that's what happened. A lot of the grandparents of our generation and the great grandparents came from small towns and managed a way to get to the city. But what they had experienced, each generation wants better for their children. And I think that's what happens. And it's inevitable that happens. You talk back and you look historically at the previous generations that did not have education. They focused on making sure that their kids did. And my generation, I'm focusing on the same thing with my kids and my grandkids. So it kind of perpetuates itself. It goes on from generation to generation that you do want your offspring to have better than you had, if possible. And you make every effort to do that. You have to provide it. And my family, my father's side of the family were landowners. And they emphasized work and buying land. But on my mother's side, my great-grandfather, Singletary, and his wife were both in education. The first school for colored children, I think that's what they called it, was the Phillips School in Guadalupe County in an area, a community known as Sweet Home, which still exists. And it was the Phillips family that started a school for colored children. And then in 1921, I think it was, that Guadalupe County received notice of the Sears Roebuck grants that were being provided to communities to establish schools. And one of those grants was given to my great-grandfather, Henry James Singletary. The community would raise half of the money and the grant would provide the remainder. That's building itself still exists in Sweet Home community. It is now a senior citizens service center. But he built that school for it was a four-room building and they emphasized home economics and agriculture in the higher grades and in the lower grades. And my mother taught there and maybe three or four of her cousins and whatever, so I agree with Sam about generational. I never had to think about whether I was going to go to college. The family had already made that and you don't have a choice. It's not when, if it's when. What role did religion or faith play in the development of each of you? Mine was number one. My mantra is God, family, education. That's the way it goes. I think so also. During our growing up days, we all have had a very close relationship with our church, our pastor. And it's interesting that those churches, although there have been many demographic changes and shifts away from what was formerly the east side, the mainstay seems to be the church. And people come from all over to attend those same churches that continue to exist and serve a role in the community. So I think the relationship that our families had with a pastor or the pastor of the church, of the choir, in some aspect, if they were serving on the church as a deacon or in some other capacity at the church, there was always a strong bond and a connection with the church. And we were told, I mean, there wasn't any question about it, you had to go to church on Sunday. And that was just a part of the routine and you went to Sunday school and you did whatever you were supposed to do to maintain your religious connection in the community. Yeah, religion had a lot to do with my education because I can remember the time my parents would say, boy, get up, you're going to Sunday school. You're going to church if you had to walk or you had to get arrived at somebody. But like you say, church was number one priority. You learned in church and carried that on so you're schooling as well. Exactly. I want to go back to something that you mentioned, Mr. Cook. You said one of the things you learned was how to think things through. Was there one course, one subject area that was most important in facilitating your capacity to think things through? The math class, I mean, the part about math and spelling. Spelling was another big deal. We had to, actually we had contests with the monk. The teacher would get all of us up, stand up, boys on one side, girls on the other side, boys against the girls. And we were going to find who was the best speller. Same thing we were doing with the math. And that were words that, you know, if the teacher gave us a list of words, go home and study. That's another meaning that you had to go home and do some homework. Learn how to spell the words properly and then be able to pronounce them. So we had the different type of games that we played was spelling or whether it was math or what other subject matter. Even history. So we had to learn how to think on our feet like I mentioned before with all different subject areas. So that made me a better student because when I got to high school, like I said, I was an honor student. So it kind of helped me in them. Then I want to make my west side proud that, you know, here I am, a black student, going to all white school. And they're going to be looking at me. But I want to also look at me. Also I want to let them know that I was just as well educated as they were. So that was a plus that I brought back to my community. That did well. I'm just thinking back, reflecting. High school, there was, in those days, we called it civics. The instructor I had, his name was Mr. Warren. Oh, civics. Yes, government civics. And I can remember vividly, he was impeccably dressed. He never came to class, not dressed in a suit and tie. And those things, you remember, you reflect back on it. You know, maybe I wound up in government, I wound up interested in some of the civil aspects of what's going on. But I remember Mr. Warren saying, when you started the class, he says, you will listen, you will pay attention, and we're going to do this. And we're going to, very meticulous, very regimented. But what I remember most was the way he was dressed. And I think those things stick with you. You respected him because he presented to the class an image that we could be proud of. We could be proud of the way he was dressed, the way he presented himself to the students. And that's what really, those kinds of things, stay with you. And I remember him until he was, plus he was a neighbor who lived two blocks on the street. And he said, come by the house, if you don't understand something, I'll talk to you more about it. But he came to class dressed impeccably. And I just remember that. It's a memory I have and I can close my eyes right now and see him in the classroom. The reason I asked a question that way, I went to an all black elementary school, but with white teachers. I went to a Catholic school. And the reason I went into the Catholic school is because the public school in the projects right across the hall from our apartment, there were a set of twins who were a year older than me. And they had flunked the first grade in the public school. And because of the complaints of their mother that she would share with my mother, my mother said, well, you know, maybe we got to find someplace else for this boy to go to school. My mother didn't finish high school until after I got into grade school and my father had an eighth grade education. So, you know, they weren't college trained or anything. So there was this daycare place that I went. And they asked people about the daycare place where I ought to go to school. And they said, well, we don't know much about them Catholics, but that Catholic school across the street seems to do okay with their students. So $15 a month chauffeur and a maid's salary. I don't know where they got the money, but they put me in that school. Well, the reason I remember that, the one thing that I learned in that school and it relates directly to what you were saying, Mr. Cook, I learned how to use the English language. I dissected more sentences. I went through more routine activity to learn the spelling, to learn the pronunciation. Now, what I didn't realize at eight, nine years of age that what the nuns there were focusing on was trying to prepare black young men to become priests and black young women to become nuns. That was their ulterior motive. They had one. But in grade school, I didn't realize that. I just knew that they stayed on my case about learning how to use the English language. Well, as a result, I'm a damn good public speaker at this point in my life, if you will. I can think things through. I can process things through. And so the idea of picking up skills at that early stage within the academic environment is extremely valid. So many of our kids nowadays don't have that commitment either from teachers or from community or from within the family. So do any of you have ideas about how we can approach that deficit within our youth in today's society? Yeah, done any thinking about that? I just retired in 2020. So I've just come out of that environment. And one of the things that I think, I don't know if we would have to form groups of individuals at churches or at the Y or wherever. But our children, and not only our children, American students are just really missing out on, we're trying to teach what is now called a blocker process called critical thinking skills, which uses a taxonomy by a person called Blooms. Taxonomy tells you, you need to learn how to evaluate, how to analyze, how to break down materials and how to know how to tell when something is right or wrong to go to law school. You need to be able to evaluate. So they don't take that seriously. It's too structured. It doesn't bring about any pleasure. And no one is rewarding them if they do do that. Do you notice how much more attention the bad kids get now than those who are achieving? We give all of the attention to the bad kids. So some of our good kids want to be bad kids so they can get that attention. So we need some way to, I know we don't want to go backward, but there's some of the things that we know bring about success, but our children don't see that. They don't know that. We knew that. We knew that going to college would give us a better chance at a better job or whatever. But we can't say that to them now because some of those same kids will come up and say, oh no, I run drugs with my uncle and he makes so much and so much a year. You see? So it's a systemic problem. And it's not just black kids and it's not just poor children. Many of our more successful families have suffered that kind of deficit now. So when you ask about what can you do, schools are trying, but I think we haven't seen the forest with the trees. It's a dilemma. It is a dilemma. When I first came to San Antonio, I was invited to become a member of the KLRN board and I refused. The reason I refused is because it was my opinion based on all of my experiences in growing up and my formal training that television had one of the worst impacts on child development that any entity or any factor could ever have. By the way, I still believe that. It's even worse today because of the social media. It's worse today because we spend more time in the non-factual opinion-oriented product and activity. And our kids are directly exposed to that. There may not be an approach other than constantly saying it publicly over and over, getting repetitive. But I wonder what you all think about what I just said relative to our role as senior African-Americans in participating in a new learning process for our youth that focuses on fact as opposed to fantasy. I still think they're going to have to see it. We're going to have to be examples of. I'm just thinking of the four of us who are sitting here now in any average school here in the city. How many of those kids have been exposed to us? It's interesting that you say that. I spent about an hour on telephone last night with an 18-year-old youngster who is now entering college, and he and I talked about his career. We talked about how to figure out what he might be interested in. I didn't tell him what to study, but I made myself, if you will, available that he can call me at any time, and I can call him at any time to talk about his progress. That one-on-one is something that occurred community on us as we were growing up, and it was a lot of one-on-one that was shared, if you will, by other community members. Can we get back to that in some way? Mentorships, they work. If you can get them going and keep them going. We have a lot of them that do startups, but they're not long-term. We need some long haulers like that. And you're also going to have to somehow, some way, get parents involved with their children's education. Right now, our parents are not involved with their children's education. They bring the child to you and say, I can't do anything. I brought him so that you can help him. You see? I don't know how we got to that point, but the schools are expected now. You know, it's interesting. I just had a wild thought. I have a lot of wild thoughts. Should we return to segregated education? Can we what? Should we return to segregated education? Oh, now that's a real question. Well, I think, I don't know if return is the right word. I think there, as we've been discussing this morning, obviously there are certain aspects of segregated education that turned out for some of us to be beneficial. Now, whether we need to think about replicating that, and if it is indeed possible in this day and age, given the external influence that's impacting today's student, both minority and non-minority, I think it would be a very difficult challenge to return to segregated education, but it would be more difficult to identify and pinpoint some of the positives that existed in segregated education and replicate that today. And again, it would depend on the degree of receptivity that the student has, which you mentioned, Dr. Lawrence, I assume the student reached out to you, right? You didn't reach out to that student. Or was it a combination? Combination. Combination. But whatever. It seems as though there has to be some type of linkage, some type of realistic approach on the part of the mentor and the mentee, and explaining what the benefits, you know, reflecting historically on some of the aspects that existed during segregation and segregated schools that turned out to be beneficial for those of us who are in our mature years now. I'd like to interject just one little thing. The other thing that happened to us, black men and women left the field of education. We don't have enough of us in the field. We abandoned it because we could then, you know, suddenly we could become so many other things. Technology. But I think the pandemic has taught us one thing that in person, one-on-one contact that children have with teachers is a lot more valuable than a computer that's coming out. But we need us in the school systems. Mr. Cook? Well, I was listening to what you were saying. The reason why a lot of kids are not focused on, like you say, the old type of education is because it's computer age. There's too much technology as far as, you know, they are more interested in technology. Now I got a granddaughter and she lives and dies by that computer. And I try to use the computer as well as they do, but they are more into it. I mean, they are really educated as far as the computer. Yeah. Because that's the age that they grew up in. Two-year-old skinning. Right. Now I got a 10-year-old granddaughter. I mean, I had to go to her to ask her some of the things that are going on today. So I guess in a sense we have to move up and learn what they're learning because they're in a different situation. Let me challenge that. Are we using that as an excuse not to return to active interpersonal involvement? I understand the reality. I totally understand the reality. But are we using that as a way of justifying non-return to active involvement in the developmental experience of our children? I say to people in higher powers, the one don't want to go back to that type of education. All about the money. Correct. But I do believe, I'm waiting to see, because really their school districts are really challenged with how many, especially in the state of Texas, I haven't looked outside that, but with the gap that was formed during the year in which a majority of students were learning virtually. And they're wrestling with that right now as to, you know, I don't think it's going to take technology out of the schools. But what we do need to look at, and I think some of them will be looking at it, is that technology should supplement, not supplant. One of the things to keep in mind is that what you each described and what I experienced in early segregated education was combined family, teacher activity in behalf of my developmental process, your developmental process. You described a unifying community approach, a unifying approach across academic entities within the segregated school area. You expressed a commitment on the part of the teachers and family for progress in their young people and to represent that family and community system in a positive way in the future. Is there a way to return to that? Not without a paradigm shift. You can't do it with the mindset we have right now. I don't think. I think it requires a commitment on the part of the student and parents. But the environment has changed. And you have to recognize that those changes can be positive and don't have to be negative. I agree that the parents probably are not as determined and committed to interacting with teachers and making sure that their students have the education that they need. But why is that? So once there's a recognition as to why it exists and you can break that down and you can break down some of those barriers that exist now between the teachers and the parents and try to return to some of the basics that existed a generation ago, an hour generation. It's difficult because the barriers are what we've been talking about, the technology and the social media and the distractions that are out there. And it's just extremely difficult. When everyone is wrapped up and totally engaged in social media, it's a whole different environment, a whole different world. And we have to see what can be done to get back to some of the basics. But at the same time, it's a difficult challenge to break down some of those barriers. That's true. And children learn from each other, too. That's something else. They miss their friends. That's something that I noticed and I wish they would bring back into the school system learning how to write penmanship. Absolutely. Students look at the kids today. They don't know how to read. They started cursive. Remember? They took cursive out. If you sign your name. They're horrible. They only know the keyboard. And there are teachers who have come through the system already who cannot read cursive writing. I was always being asked, what does this say? But there are some states, Ohio. I don't know about Texas yet, but I know Ohio and Iowa, I believe, have now mandated that they go back and that the school districts begin to teach cursive writing. How can we as individuals or as members of organizations like the San Antonio African American Museum and Community Archive or United Way or how can we become advocates for recognition of these deficit areas and continually at least speak to the need for return to some sense of unity in educational approach for African American children? I'm prejudiced. You're prejudiced. Okay. Can we in our organizations, our predominantly African American organizations begin to insert a mentoring type program as part of our program facet? Can we focus on that rather than on a thousand and other one things that we're doing or focusing on? Can we give up some of our pleasurable whatever, whatever and put that money and time into the children? I'm the first African American in San Antonio ever to be chairman of the board of United Way. I was sitting at the executive committee which I was on for about 30 years before I stepped down a year or so ago and I made the following statement. I said racism is taught during the first three years of life at the kitchen table. Now the room was 95% white. Some of the black staff the next day called me and said, Dr. Lawrence, when you speak it's like EF Hutton. The whole room comes to attention. I said who in the hell you think taught EF Hutton? What I mean is this, communication clearly and directly must be manifest at all levels within the African American community in order to become effective advocates for our children. I'm very strong in the belief of that. Am I out there on the limb by myself? I think that's an accurate statement. It does depend on the receptivity. I mean, you're talking about communication which means you have an audience. You have someone who's listening, who's willing to listen and is willing to try to understand what you want to convey. And I think those are the kind of gaps that we're confronted with right now is that we can have very serious efforts and attempts at communicating but if we don't get genuine feedback on that communication, then we tend to think that, well, maybe it's useless. It's not working. It's not working because we're not getting the kind of feedback they would have gotten 35, 40 years ago in response to what we're trying to convey. And I don't know if that's just a function of the environment, the culture, today's culture that exists, but I agree we have to make every effort and continue to strive, but it's a two-way street. Yeah, it's my opinion. Life is interesting, isn't it? Yes. If you were a fourth-grade teacher at this point in time, what would you want to communicate to your predominantly African-American class about racism? About what? Racism, about racism. What would you want to communicate to the students in your class? What would you want them to know about the reality of racism? I think I could take one simple phrase that probably was given to most of us. Until we get to a certain point of what we call social justice, you must be better. You cannot be... At this point, it is not about equal. It's about better. When I see us at the head table, I know that person is 10 times better to have gotten there. So you must be better at this point. Now, we may one day get to that point where we have equality, but we're not there yet. Any other thoughts? I think that's what we were taught. Most teachers used that phrase as they were trying to prepare us for that next level, because we were all apparently in that range where they knew we were getting ready to go into it. And so they always used that phrase, you must be better. And I know I took that to heart. You must be the best. You must be the best. Well, you're going to be, yeah. You must be better for whatever. Don't stop at that. Is it futile? Is it a futile effort? Is it something that we just shouldn't talk about? Because it's unreal? I mean, today, yeah. No, I hope not. I mean, one would hope that, as I mentioned earlier, of today's parents should want the best for their children, as was the case in prior generations. Now, I said should, but I'm not sure that that exists right now. It should, and we can say it should because we look at ourselves as beneficiaries of that type of environment. But to today's parents and the people who are responsible for the kids today, I'm not sure fully understand what it means to be a serious student and to break away from some of the norms that exist, some of the peer pressure that exists because of technology and social media. So I don't know how it can answer that question in today's world as opposed in the context of what happened in the past. How should the organization which is sponsoring what we are doing today present to their constituency the reality of racism, the reality of segregation, the benefits of segregation, education, as well as the deficits? How should this organization present these factors to their community recipients? I'm not sure. I hope that that's a part of their mandate to try to make that type of a connection, but it's a challenge. And realistically, I see students, high school, middle school, and if it's an African-American student I intentionally mention the fact that I went to Wheatley and I ask if they know about Wheatley or if they have any kind of a and they can't imagine segregation. Because it's just not something that's part of their DNA. They don't know what segregation is. Now, they do know that they are in the school systems that they are thrust, put together with students from other nationalities and that there are differences, but let's put it frankly, they have a choice and the parents have a choice. Have choices that they didn't have when we were growing up. You were mandated to attend certain schools because of the color of your skin and that is not the case today. Now, to answer your question, I don't know how you can convey what the lessons that were learned from segregation and put that in the context of today's world, I'm not sure. I listen to my grandkids a lot and thinking back when I was going through stuff, you tell them they say, well, that's old school. I don't want to be dealing with that kind of stuff. This is my time and I don't want to hear about it. Think about it. So they got told a new agenda which I guess they spoke to live their own life as well but you try to instill with them some of the things that we had to go through and struggle. They don't want to hear it. My grandchildren are ages 24, 22, 20, 16 and 12 and they have heard everything that I have said today. They have heard it individually. They have heard it collectively. I can't say that they have incorporated it but they have consistently heard the reality of the world in which they live. My two, three children who are here in San Antonio, one's a pediatrician, one's an anesthesiologist and the other one's making money. He's a financial analyst and won't give me no money but they have heard the reality of the world in which they live. They hear it over and over and over again. When my older boy was four years old he was attending a preschool that was all white and I got home from the office and my wife said, you got to talk to him. I said, why? I said, well, a little girl had a toy and he took the toy and the teacher said, David, give the toy back and he put the toy in his mouth and the teacher reached for the toy and he bit the teacher and then he put his hands on his little hip and he says, my mother says, I'm the only black child here. She says, I don't have to do what you say. My wife would not say things like that. I would. So you can see me chastising this kid with him sitting on my lap and I'm trying to pat him on the back and at the same time caution him. One month later the teacher called and said, I owe you all an apology. I considered him retarded because he did not want to do what we were doing. He already knew what she discovered. So that is in that teacher's behalf. We must, from my perspective, continue to be open advocates for the developmental process of our children because racism is real and it's going to confront them and if they are not able to anticipate the impact, they're going to suffer the consequences. I think it depends on the circumstances. You mentioned grandkids. I have a grandson who was in school in Denver who was in school in Denver and about a year ago he called. He was doing his teacher to ask him to do some family research and he called me and he said, what was it like when you were growing up? Because that's what he had to write in his paper in school. His teacher said, talk about your family, your grandparents and he says and the more I told him the more he was in disbelief. Yes. But he was excited to hear to hear it about what the differences were between the environment that I had in school and what he's going through now and I was excited that he was interested and that his teacher put the focus on it and made him interested in it in understanding generational differences. Generational. One of the things we have left out of the equation, we do not have programs that include parents. There's so many problems out there that if our organizations, the schools, whomever, could somehow bring the parents in a component for parents because as long as they're getting one story from the parents and another story from the rest of us or whomever, there's conflict, there's reason to cast it off as, you know, not important or not to believe it. But we don't have programs they should begin really with the parents. We are approaching the time when this session will be ending and I want to give each of you a couple of minutes to make a summary statement from your perspective both about the issues that we've discussed today and about other factors, situations, issues that you think might be relevant to the organization that is sponsoring our interaction today. And we will start with you, Ms. Duncan. This has been a wonderful session. I've enjoyed the conversation. Kind of makes you think back and reminisce and really evaluate in many ways how you reached where you are. Someone invested in you. So I enjoyed doing that today because I do appreciate the investments that were made in me and I realize how important they are. I would hope that this organization can find a way to include the larger black community I think in what they are doing. Not only from our generation here, the older ones, but also have programming in place for the current generation that's school-aged children. Somehow we need the larger community to gather them together in some way. I don't know how or what they would do with the program, but if we, and then use us as resources as they begin to talk about their problems, I don't know that we, it's kind of like with the welfare program the things that they had to stop doing was telling them what they needed to do but listening to what the clients say they need to do. What are their needs? How can we interact with this population that we're talking about in a way that we get to understand how they feel, what they need, what's missing, because from the outside looking in we may have a different, we could very well have a different perspective. I also would like to commend the organization for what's done and I think the pathways are infinitesimal. You can choose which way you want to go and you can choose how you want to use some of the commentaries come about today and how that will impact on students and the broader San Antonio community, parents, and I think that's what we, from what I've heard, that's what you're going to do and I hope that you're developing a repertoire of information and historical information that can be useful as we try to make decisions moving forward in San Antonio. There's a lot of information out there but also there's a lot of information sharing that's needed and I think the efforts that are being put forth with groups like this and seminars like this and presentations can be beneficial and helping to satisfy at first a hunger for information that's needed to understand our path forward and I congratulate you and I hope you have much success in your future endeavors and activities that you have planned for the upcoming years. Thank you very much. I'd like to thank the organization for inviting me out and being able to give my opinions and also allowing you to understand some of the things that I had gone through and you get a different perspective from all three of us because some of us in all black schools and I had the opportunity to attend a not all totally segregated but integrated school and those experiences I had at integrated school actually was a life skill learning for me because I had to learn the difference between being in the black community versus going to a different racial situation and the things that I learned and encountered then I went back to the same situation that I started at in high school it helped me to be able to understand the kids the generation that I had to teach with and I kind of gave them a kind of idea exactly what I went through and gave them education on integration was segregation I did teach some of that stuff some of the things that I encountered and I cared about these kids and I have kids today that keeps calling me back and I made a good friendship with my students and the teachers today needs to be more get closer to the students and I'm not saying to tell them what they need to be doing but care about them and a lot of kids are not being cared about and hopefully the teaching generation today would be more loving with their kids and try to understand some of the situations that they go through and again thank you all for inviting me and I've had a good time and I want to thank SACAM for allowing me to participate the day I entered medical school in 1958 in Indianapolis, Indiana Dean walked up to me put his arm around my shoulder and said boy I hope the other colored boys have told you we're glad you're hearing at the highest grade you can make somebody said how did that make you feel I said I wanted to kill him they said well why didn't you I said two reasons if I had killed him I had to go home and tell my mother the maid my mom I killed the dean and she would have killed me and then when my father the chauffeur got home later on that evening he'd woke me up from the dead and he'd killed me again so it wasn't a need for me to die twice for that gentle person to only pass on once I graduated in four years, I was great I made was a B the other thing that happened that same day is that one of my new white classmates comes up and he says we've got some of the bark from the tree of the last lynching in the state of Indiana and I looked at him he's trying to be nice I went home and told my father that evening he said don't ever mention that to your mother I said why he said because one of the two people that was lynched in Marion, Indiana in 1930 was your mother's first cousin my second cousin was the last lynching formal in the state of Indiana I've been through a lot saw a lot experienced positive things experienced negative things and one of the things I have learned over the years is you can't just sit on it you gotta lay it out there you gotta call it the way you see it and you really don't care how somebody else is going to respond to it reality is reality and one of the building blocks for the future that each of our children have is the reality upon which their life their birth their experiences is built so with that in mind we will close this session and again thank you very much to Zacam for allowing all of us to participate in this endeavor this morning have a good day