 You're going to start just in a second Yes, I wish you a warm welcome to the Goethe Institute tonight for this talk discussion presentation with Patricia Govea Thank you that you're here. You're looking forward your presentation about Transmedia playful aesthetics arts based research playful media gaming participation and civic engagement and and I have to stress that this conference is taking place in a bigger event five days cultural management academy bringing together more than 15 young people working as artists curators in different museums and organized in cooperation with different institutions the many European cultural institutes and From Poland from Portugal. Thank you for this cooperation from Germany and from the embassy in Sweden Our Austrian friends and many many partners more University of Bucharest You find all the partners on the program of this academy. So thank you that you have come tonight to this Presentation of Patricia Patricia who just opened and curated This exhibition play mode. I think you will talk about this a little bit later So I won't say many things about this a beautiful and very interesting exhibition and You are Patricia if I find my paper you are Professor at the University of Lisbon after having a teach in different places also in Norway So it's difficult to imagine bigger difference in Europe between Lisbon and Norway Okay more similarities we will hear about it, but I think the most for me as I have read your Curriculum vitae and The list of your publication is the fact that you are working as curator as scientific as researcher on this interface between arts design University and science and I think this will be certainly also one of the points you will presenting us. I Have the pleasure to announce that at the end of this conference and Naturally, we will also have the time to discuss your thesis with the public there will be How to say there will be a glass of wine served? Before in front of our building here, and you are naturally kindly invited to this so I will pass the floor to Patricia and Yes Thank you. Thank you Thank you very much for inviting me I should thanks to go to Institute come was instanted from Portugal, but also unique from Romania and I'll Start by giving you a little bit of information about my background Where I started and what I've been doing for the last three to four years and there were two main projects besides Everything else. It was the curriculum reform of the fine arts faculty at Lisbon University We did it for the last three years. So last year it was our first year of A school faculty reform where my department multimedia heart department exchanged everything the bachelor the master and the PhD, which is a doctoral studies Program and at the same time I was working in that exhibition with An architect Pedro Gadanek. He came to open this museum in Lisbon four years ago He came from New York, MoMA, and we were working together with Philip Pies Which was a former doctoral students who defended his thesis on 2015 and I was his supervisor So that was what I've been doing even though I will go back a little bit after some time One of our main challenges at our University of Lisbon was to make students connect With engineers and the literature department as well. So we have programs for different things So and I was in charge of making this connection with the engineering students Department and for the last three years. I opened this track with my engineers colleagues Called Lisbon gaming where we make for during one semester. We make our students collaborate During one semester in a project. They create themselves with our help and They come up with a game at the end of the semester and we have a public presentation that you will see in these next scenarios our main goal is precisely to engage students and to make like Artists think about their soft skills their communication skills, but also to make engineers be able to communicate with artists and it's not easy and They had to challenge the lot with our help to make this collaboration and We are we wanted to think in two terms they create one problem They create a game they create a concept and then they have to solve it They had to create a prototype and at the end we invite Companies in Lisbon to go and see their work So for the last three years and that's I'm sorry. I think I jumped into no, no, sorry. That's okay What we want to do also in and you will see the the gaming program afterwards we want to in our reform we want to Connect what it used to be in our faculty that I when I was there 30 years ago before I left I was in different places. I was at that university that I have now and I could collaborate with designers I could collaborate with sculptures with paintings and for the last 15 years we tend to Avoid these collaborations and make our degrees more specialized So we want to go against Specialization because our students for our bachelor they tend to think that they know how to create many things But they don't know they don't have the enough skills to go and to create their projects in a Connected way or in a teamwork way so What we want it's really to rest that these three years and for our reform we tend to like go back With the new Mindsets and to make them more aware of other departments at our faculty But again at the University of Lisbon as well And that's some literature that that I was brought just to contextualize out my own research for the last year I was doing research for the math catalog. So as that's the codes that I found Interesting to bring today. So that there's some changes in the intercultural museum We tend to work in terms of thematics seem to create a team and then to to After the concert is created to Continue our research and that's how we worked in terms of the exhibition but also for our curriculum reform So I think there's a kind of activism that museums should go for and to avoid some romantical ideas about heart autonomy like our faculty were really Avoiding lots of hybrid and multiple identities in our own contents so that's The the the research I was doing again for a chapter as well that I wrote is here Besides the one that I have in this catalog and I will find all these references afterwards And now I can present the Lisbon gaming The Lisbon gaming workshop that we have for three years now and here you can see our students That was our first year and it went quite well. We had around the 15 students from the fine arts faculty and and from the engineering faculty that are around 60 So some games at one artist for four programmers and That's last year and I will present you a video from their Public Presentation in which is always in May so that was from two thousand eighty and At the end of May they we go with them we make their evaluation out there We arrived in the morning. They prepare every single their materials and then we start The day with all people around That's one of my colleagues from the engineering faculty They are three working with students in this project. That was with an Romanian Erasmus students It will be there in one minute. So there are also Erasmus That's the Indian student and both the other two are Portuguese the three of them so we have students from many different countries these days from Erasmus and In 2008 we had around 80 fine arts students 18 sorry 18 for a fine arts students again 60 engineering engineers and That's a funny project that they it's a master student from the Engineering faculty and that's a replica for a bell phone and they did it with an augmented reality game for a museum We had in our technical faculty and they were it was collaborating with fine artists Again for their projects which now is that museum So last year we had around 18 this year. We had 25 students from our fine arts faculty. So as you can see Students really start to take it indeed seriously. So they really engaged in these initiative and they are very happy this year and Then if you like I can give you this PDF and then you can go to their blogs and all the materials All the archive we have for this project. We can see you can see their prototypes and everything is Connected in their blogs their process Working process is in their blogs. They have to write a post each 15 days for us to be aware of what they have been doing and then This year they the day was even more excited Exciting because they were really more they were there more students and they were really engaged in that initiative So I think you get a clue of what is going on my research in playful interfaces goes back to my doctoral thesis I was Researching I started as a fine artist and then I was into digital arts and finally in digital gaming And I did my thesis in digital gaming back to 2008 and Another thing we did for the last three in this case for the last two years was a We tried to internationalize our faculty as much as we could and we do this We have we received this proposal from Estienne Paris in two years ago and they came To Lisbon to give a workshop and this year we went to Paris to give and the Portuguese teachers gave the workshop there And we they brought to Lisbon 30 students and we brought to Paris This year 10 Portuguese students and two teachers to teach Playful interfaces in the case of Estienne Paris in Lisbon was such a project and it was about playful interfaces as well So this is a rich Interface like this is the Lisbon Workshop and this is in Paris and now we tend to exchange Students work together to create playful interfaces for this one for the one in Lisbon was mainly about Lisbon And for the one in Paris it was playful gaming a short concerts So during five days we work with students for with their projects and we discuss their projects We go out with them and things like that and again blocks we tend to we make students create their blogs with all these memorabilia and In Lisbon one where the Portuguese students who did it in Paris were the French students who create their blogs That's another program. We have I'll go there next week for the students exhibition on 23 of Of September and that's another protocol We have like sound of Lisbon and that means university came to Lisbon in May this year And then we go with our students to mains next week so we've been kind of active in terms of implementing these ideas and Another thing we had this year was an invitation to be on campus at Harsie electronic Do you know what Harsie electronic is? So the festival we were really proud to present our students work there and Again, that's part of their digital catalogue and there is one of my colleagues money commands and one doctoral student and a Vicent who prepared all these Projects if you can see the fortress is one of the games that we created during the gaming Lisbon gaming in 2018 it was one students project that started there so Internationalization for our faculty was something that we really wanted our students to go abroad to know to make their network To connect to create projects with in many different contents for play mode again As I told you before we wanted to have a team and that was We were like trying to discuss the digital revolution if we go back to ours Electronica this year they were speaking about the middle cries of the digital revolution and It's true. It's like we have been around for almost 40-50 years and we still speak about the digital revolution as something really new That's why history is very important. So for play mode. We wanted to avoid any Media specificity. We didn't want to have only interactive media. We didn't want we wanted to have like paintings cultures performances Photography video all the media in this transmedia way that I will go afterwards I'll speak about it so we want to have a team and that was to reflect about the digital revolution in Lisbon with International artists, but also with two new commissions and some Portuguese artists, of course to dignify their work and in terms of a Show which will reflect this digital revolution as the main team and we find for Micro concepts, which was interaction participation gaming and playful behaviors So it was our approach our team and then we started like three years ago With our curatoral assistant to develop the concept in terms of like going to museums to find the pieces that we wanted to bring to Lisbon and to negotiate with new commissions with the Portuguese artists and so on This is some imagery from the the exhibition last week opened Last week and we wanted really to like what we did at the fine art faculties like we see we need to start to Connect with the painting department with the sculptural department as we went in separate ways We want to go integrate all these departments in a connected way again The same we wanted to integrate sculpture into interactive media. There's a room with gaming But we didn't want to present it as just a new media exhibition and again another new media exhibition Here's it's a collective of artists the specialists Architects who create really weird environments in this case. They went to the south of the country and they used Artisanal In this case they create a display Domino so they were playing with these ludic ideas about the domino and all They can evoke it, but also some objects It's from play mode That's me when the catalog arrived at the exhibition the day before our opening I was so happy so it was we were still in the production setting and To give you a contest I was during the 90s I was I did exhibitions for myself I've collaborated in the European capital of our second city in Porto. I did Gallery shells I worked in many different contents. I worked with the Extorians I worked with architects and I Ended up like after I did my PhD I ended up as a scholar and I was very happy to do that because that's part of the text of the catalog because I find that I'm feeling much Happy to exercise my freedom in an experimental way But I changed many many times my way of behaving I was a painter Here again, I was taking pictures around the Europe in my travels And then I was in the in our young creators show in Lisbon then The digital river for me in 97 was the digital revolution But the digital through the digital revolution was there I was creating websites in an Artistical contents also video and paintings with some Digital programs. I also did some CD ROMs What we now know that that's the CD Rome heart and some CD ROMs for these kinds of exhibitions And then I also did some indie projects and some gallery projects net art and Some projects with students that was my first project where I Was collaborating with another artist was also with a bunch of students from an advanced Creativity school in Lisbon. It's it's online. You can go and see it But for a living I was doing graphic design Internet or a web design and I was very happy in Because I could live with this work in terms of I was doing it to make my living to be Able to create my own Artistical projects and to do whatever I would like to do And at that period during the 90s in Lisbon, these are were some of my most fundamental concepts subversion modification and play were fundamental and But we have to give it a contest because these days I tend to go to university My university and sometimes to collaborate with students from Norway from France for and they look all similar And but because we are in a globalized world They all have the same anxieties, but one thing I found It's like they have no clue about history. They are mixing like modernities with postmodernities and they Make lots of populist statements, and that's everywhere. I think there's no there's an historical Perspective which is really worries me. So this is one of When artists that I was looking at some lots of years ago and this in 2015 is He has this idea of just imagine how it was because now we take it to the digital revolution for granted We don't even can see because of the Social media. We only tend to see the bad side of it We almost forget I was enthusiastic during the night. It is about in the the internet has a medium and new medium Now it's a mass medium and we tend to forget about some of the things that he was say telling you here that we changed a lot during the last 20 years and We should maybe also make a history of all these movements of all these different perspectives in terms of artistical behaviors and so on But that was some of the artists that I was in Lisbon very curious to see Using the internet with a very bad connection and I was eager to go and to hear about them They were Jody now they for more than 25 years they are doing installations and they were those who survived they were doing One exhibition in Lisbon. I met them. I went in they went for several is a big exhibitions in Spain and so on so These are the ones who survived, but there are many artists who didn't and I will go to it afterwards. That's another reference I had and Laurie Anderson these days people don't even know these projects and it seems like we are creating from scratch an old a field of Media and We tend to be like this guy was working with Laurie Anderson during the 90s is a media creator with a background in art design engineer and digital entertainment and he works in several contests and What is this about creating? I told you before art has a creation problem You create a problem and then you solve the problem in a design mindset Sometimes it's the same person other times you will have both a designer and an artist But the transmedia Started for me definitely with this project in 2007 with my students I was invited to do an exhibition for a Portuguese library and I did the playing with poetry, which was a platform where My students create videos create audio files and they record the Portuguese poets and And they did installations and so on we did gaming with flash games and then we asked people to Send us pictures and then we give them a prize and we gave them a prize and we also ask for a poem and It it was great for our students It was from two different faculties a private and a public one and they were created. That's where fine arts students and The I'll do is from a sound students and Again, I turn it my project into a collaboration into a transmedia project because I was hearing about some Marketing projects from nine-inch nails in United States. They did there's this company called 42 entertainment I was aware of their work and They also did some Projects for Batman from Chris Christopher Nolan 2008 Batman and I was aware of this So I was thinking maybe I should apply this for an indie contest in my own field of research So the project appeared that that's the library You have eight installations eight flash games at the time and the library facility And then they went to the web and the projects were well received around I went to a conference in Hong Kong I met some other people from other countries working in transmedia and I was finding the ones who I would like to travel with so that was really a good period to Find it some of what I'm telling you is on my web page this one academia, but again going to blogging I think that's another important issue because when I was doing some research back in 2006 I With my blog I was able to connect with people from different countries and to connect with people in my own country So blogging I always advise my students to keep in touch of a blog To make themselves a peer than to connect with other people around and that's really important for network And with these in mind always I was Researching other people This one in bogus. It's a recent book, but I'm following him for a long time now from United States Or from the University of Copenhagen Miguel C. Cart, but I could bring you many different examples I'll from researcher around the world were speaking about how play matters and now this is important It's not nothing new It's just the use of various media for the creation of new forms of performance and interactive art that mixes audiences across the internet and We have to think about we can use it in terms of commercial way or in an independent or more exploratory way and There are some collectives of artists in this case in UK They are using as an artistical source really connected with theater and I was Researching them as well. They went to Lisbon. So I was very glad to see their talk They did this. It was in 2003 and arts electronic a price ankle Roy around one or all around you It was for the Institute of contemporary arts in London and it's a game where you have to find uncle Roy You have to a 90 in 90 minutes to find uncle Roy and that's a performatic project and You have the story world where you have to connect with someone online And you have to commit for someone else that our online player commits for someone on the on the London streets for 12 months is so It's always is using the the city as a map as a source of Territory Also using virtual reality can be a plus to create a kind of agenda in your game design to tell something if you want to tell The others or to create empathy or to speak about the subject matter. You can use it in gaming design and That's a project from a collective. They wanted to raise conscience about Violence against black people in the United States So the game is like you are into the skin of this guy and you have to Create a kind of empathy because you can feel the same Emotions that the a black person in the United States feel when they go to the gross restore for something like that so that was Also Possibility that I found in my research to use the the impact of Virtual reality in short documentaries and I brought you two examples from the same collective. They have a different name now within They were cells after but that was two projects they did in 2015 and it was in one you You dress this you hey you are in the skin of a nebula Sorry Woman sick ceiling to fade. This is the story of they can't as she is a survivor of a hebbler and The other one is about how to feel how to be a refugee I mean quick but again if you you have in my texts and my articles you have lots of Disinformation, so I'm just giving you an overview of the possibilities And that's from this summer that's I don't know if you saw it before so this summer That's the project that using the same kind of playful methodology playful behavior to make people contact in both sides in the city of the whores in Mexico and New Mexico and it came from an architect and And What I was in terms of transmedia was also using Darren Mcdonald Darren or Donald which is a Canadian researcher and he has his this collective Mammal mammalian diving reflects where they create amazing projects to make people connect in a very activist way so to create an idea of to develop a Static that work with relational situations and Engage people in a civic sphere remember at the beginning of my talk I was also besides gaming speaking about civic engagement So they asked teenagers to go with them to restaurants because they cannot afford to go to restaurants So they invited them also they ask children to cut seniors their cuts We were speaking we were speaking this morning about the idea of intergenerational Connections so gaming is a since the Wii Console from Nintendo and the this projects tend to mix. Thank you so much to mix different generations in a playful moment or in a Kind of opening or performance whatever is still want to call it So I was using their adorn all Donald as well and this book social acupuncture for from 2008 But also some of his article recently published articles This is from a French researcher that I like a lot which is Catherine Malibu's the way we adapt But we have also to take into account Different fields in a different way that we tend to do it in the 19th We tend to go to system theory to think that we have to do lots of things we need to learn Programming we need to learn different things from biology these days We tend to think that maybe we can integrate in a team all these These fields and we can start creating a project from scratch Earring all these people because they can come up with creative ideas and then we all together create the project Which is a kind of different approach. It's an integrative approach Well kid cat theory that's another video that you can go afterwards and see it But it's like we tend to avoid people the people who like exchange cats maims and the internet but you can use it as an in an activist perspective as well and I was always I when I was in 2013 in Colombia I discovered these guys and tennis mocus and a Penal laws in Ricky Penalosa, which this was the Bogota mayors previously was a Rector for the University of Bogota and because I lived for a while in Brazil and Also in Colombia and Mexico and I was really amazed by this story And you can go and see the Danish director video about these two guys I brought some images, but really the video. It's a piece and you can find it on YouTube and It's an amazing story how they really changed Bogota behavior citizens behaviors in a really amazing way So they did some TV Short films to explain to people like they could save water how they the taxes could be more Sustainable in terms of velocity. So they really changed that some behaviors using theater in a kind of pedagogy and Changing Infrastructures because also I keep in your laws. It's an engineering and the other one comes from the theater So bells together because in Ricky Penalosa was very people trusted him and The other it was so Performatic so charismatic I would say and both they could they did this revolution in Colombia It's another they invited some Circles before they did performance treat performances and they did an amazing job Another artist that Darren Arnold That I was previously coating Since it's she's making the differences is the Czech Artist Katerina said does work Go and have a look. She created people from her village wanted her to became the the mayor of her villages And she has some works where she put people in collaboration with each other and She is what I'm trying to tell you about what we can do in in this arts-based research Revolutionizing social circumstances and for what I'm this year was researching using Artists researchers designers It's like we really need to go to avoid Differentiations between new media and contemporary arts for instance because like in my time I was very glad to I was saying I don't want to go into museums or galleries anymore I want to go to the university, but this post internet artists these days They tend to be much more well connected with the mark with the market And there's a market these days and they tend to be like they can produce their own paintings But also their digital pieces in a more integrated way So what my statement is we should merge contemporary arts and that's what we try to do in our play mode exhibition Contemporary arts like these American artists goes around the world and he created these pieces. He can they can be performances He has a bunch of interesting photographs or videos in a playful way So we should mix different styles past and because when I tell you that we are in a popular modernist fashion emerging modernism with post modernism, which are the two coins of the same The two sides is sides of the same coin I'm telling you that we are in a digital digital plenitude yet And that we should go beyond the disease of post modernism special modern specialization post modernism relativism and our younger people tend to mix both in a really Shaker it's like doing a shaker with both trends like the new the new it's a modernist concept It's not a postmodern concept and the digital revolution is from post modernism. It's not from the modernism, but again we tend to mix all these things in a shaker and Marshall McLuhan with rock and roll and All these things came from the 20th century and what Bolter is saying that we live in a popular modernism fashion these days mixing micro narratives of the self with several media And with all these we tend to avoid these distinction distinctions that we had before Between all the new media even though with these separations are useful are still useful We tend to be in a connected context these days and but again things changed and we have to think how It changed for the last 20 to 30 years so there are researcher labs and artists have different places where they can Present their work and there are more collaborations and there are different different environment and Things are not like versus science versus arts anymore. So in this integrated world We should avoid all the distinctions that we were doing previously In this kind of media zombie media contests So that's one of the authors that we invited for our catalogue She wrote a short piece about playing and her book I really recommend her book because she is something that she's telling you that it's nothing new What we are doing in transmedia or playful media statics is nothing new Again, we go to modern aesthetics and we find many precursors Like Marcel Duchamp that is me when you come at you when there is no play you are dead So play such an instinct we can I cannot play with my cat But I I can play with my cat, but I cannot tell him a story. So there's this instinct Really precious thing about playing that we might Use again and again. So these are the more movements that we're using some of the trans media ideas that we find In these contents. That's a funny project that I brought From the media law facade in Madrid where it's I would play it very shortly because my time is over We are playing catries in two different ways one is doing the rotation and the other one is doing the direction And that was a project that they did to make people collaborate in public space She is class of the last letter Just a short bit These two projects from Sweden, it's they are mainly my they open a call for creative projects and they did this Do it yourself ideas and people create had come up with some funny ideas using play again in a sustainable way The merging of contents as well like he sometimes are creating commercial projects other times to make a living as I told you at the beginning To earn money to be able to do other projects And I think that's an advice I should I like to give to my students to be able to create in different contents There's another one is just a funny one, but it's quick Just you can go to their website and see more project. They have inserted there. So So ending Sorry, it was too quick, but it's just another information. I can give you the merging Contents artisanal contests with other more technological based ones. It seems Also was something that you might like to take into account So artists are no longer they're back turn there's another an Australian artist that I find really interesting he was creating in many different contents and Art autonomy is just like something that we don't have to take into account anymore some of some of our children's games, that's something that I was being Telling you about What you can use in remixing languages media platforms and systems of play and game brain in a parody of the capitalist system That's friends Alice Alice. We didn't have him in Lisbon. Unfortunately, but now he has a show in Montreal Contemporary Art Museum pre Sheila Fernandes. We have her in Lisbon And so you can use marketing tools like bread or Donald is doing some regular guerrilla marketing pieces in in in his work and Retro engineering technologies to mix various aesthetics and To come up with Response to the emergency of the computer and digital media because what we see and we know It's like digital artists are not represented in many museums these days still So that's something that we should take care for future and the digital The digital revolution has to take into account that the internet become a mass media and Artists and poets start using as their source of creation production and dissemination That's an another Lunge of artists various forms of social media are suited for both individual identity construction telling your own story and political or social Engagement telling a collective story That's another artist politics of surveillance and We now these days that people tend to put lots of information online about themselves. So we had this concept of surveillance a Surveillance of ourselves And that's the another check artist might like to Research an interface a social interface I know Really quick, but I think you get the message These are just some artists that I brought you to bring my into my conclusions and not space research approach Can be instrumental to many areas? Museology our education as in itself magic capacity to create and identify problems Artistical skills what it is with a design approach design skills to solve them an Artistical approach is questioned the time we are living and generate critical debates Following this exploratory methodology with the capacity to design possible solutions to identified problem problems I Won't I will end up with Transmedia environments where artists use several media to convey their ideas and costs concepts about the world we are living and We take we should consider post-modernism digital revolution with these procedural aesthetics simulation aesthetics and the appreciation of tradition United with new age tendencies and technologies and this merge contemporary art space where The internet is now a mass media and unlike the real world as no borders so if we want to be in an amputation mode or in a Smart mode mode I can minecraft And that's really the anti disruptive void Open to be tested by gamers acres and artists and arts based research platform with no predetermined ideas or concepts The idea of a sandbox where you can create whatever you like where players can engage in a fictional world And to generate social and cultural awareness with a double-blind view with no weight And that's my references and thank you very much multi-mersk, and I'm sorry for my delay So you're presented many many different aspects, and it was not easy to follow everything on the On the PowerPoint presentation, but you said you will also I'll give you the PDF to And to see it afterwards. I always prepare it to Exchange it afterwards that you can go and do further research. That's all we work these days So I'm very happy if you were interested in seeing it. This would be great I think so in a minute. I give you the floor for questions, please in English if possible. Otherwise we will try translate just a minute, please I just Ask the first question, but yeah, it's And come to you in a short minute just I'm not at all an expert of this question But how are your relationship and the relationship of your projects with the economic world? so to say because You talked about society of different very different aspects, but not about economics Because I was working in several contents the majority of them During the 90s were commercial projects where we had yes, so I was really budget like for this exhibition They work as a Public company, but they are a private energy company. So I had a budget me and my colleague for the old the exhibition for the catalog for the invitation we decided to give each artist a fee and Then new commissions for Portuguese artists were ahead of the the others fee, of course because it's there They were producing new work, but Like I was showing you the CD runs. I did 20 years or more ago I was working with a French company was going to Lisbon to work with us to create these products So I tend to be also connected with companies. That's why I'm doing the I'm doing this partnership with the university the technical university where we Ask companies to go and to see Students work so we tend to speak with them in terms of which kind of profile Do you need to achieve in future? We need to work out in future. It's very new It's not it's it's difficult to to do these things and to even to persuade students that it's great for them to speak with others other other Actors sometimes it's not because they tend to think that they know what the market needs. It's like typical 3d Specializations Programming they are very worried about Programming issues and they tend to forget about Communication issues and companies were telling us that that they it's they don't know how to prepare their CV. They don't know how to Go into the marketplace and to present themselves. So sometimes students also will work for this company's yes But they are all paid or they go and find their jobs by themselves But when we connected for the museum, I had research budget So I paid my students to work in the in the or Sometimes they are like they have their credits. They are in our evaluation process If they don't have credits for their work, they should get paid With research budgets. Okay, and would you consider consider yourself as a socially and put it politically engaged? person yes Even though in in a not direct like I'm not a politician or but I have a political agenda I think Everything is political Have this I really believe that yes great. So some question, please Thank you. So first of all, I'd like to congratulate you for the presentation It was really fascinating and I can't wait for the PDF because I'm sure there are so many interesting aspects to discover You mentioned civic engagement as one of the aspects of your work and I was curious if you could Describe how do you says the impact of those projects that target civic engagement? the ones that I bring my my students with me to work in like this library contents, it was I Was invited as an artist and I decided to do it with my students And that I have I really have this agenda of doing projects like the one in Paris It took me a lot of much more contact towers. There's the ones that I need to put into my Week so we were there for five days with we brought students and we were in into French museums and so on so I tend to make them aware of the the the global world we are living and Engaging them in this Connected space so in terms of my my responsibility as a scholar is to have updated research That's another thing that I'm trying to do each year Even though I spend more hours preparing courses and so on and also writing So for this museum first of all what I wanted to tell museums is the Portuguese scene is not Aware of the digital revolution these days in the second decade of the 21st century So in if you go and read the the the text I wrote This was precisely to create awareness of the changes and that sometimes We tend to have ideas about what people think in terms of like the younger's and they are really eager to to find things Like with their teachers and those projects that I showed from Darren Darren O'Donnell that you go out with teenagers one thing we we also do in our faculties like Doctoral students are master students mentors and master students mentors are bachelor students master students are bachelor students mentors and And we tend to have like together meetings together and to have all this Structure going on. I don't know if I really answer but that's my short Contribute for the the future also with their asses. I was very happy this year because in our gaming 2019 I had an Italian student and she was saying thank you so much for giving us this opportunity at the end of the day when she told me that that I was like Really like almost crying because it's it's something that it was an opportunity if they felt it they just again like between girls and Students and the technical school is very masculine and at the fine art faculty we tend also to raise these issues of sexism and sometimes they My students my girl students go there and they find like they had lots of prejudice when they create technologies or they create games So all these awarenesses try to Thank you So other questions Hi, thank you very much for the very practical presentation. It was quite refreshing Um, you speak about you speak a lot about collaboration in your presentation and my question was How did you get to do it all the departments? So it's such a different departments engineering literature and arts to work together because It's a very tough mission that you had and I think it brings a lot of value, especially For art students who not only have to have a concept, but they also need to Implemented technically. So how did you get them to work together? Thank you. Thank you for your question That's an interesting question and it's not easy at all. It was at the beginning again I I was back at this university where I was a student With an application process which was kind of difficult because I was not the one that they would like to have Me and another colleague. I'm very glad to say that because I was not alone So I was there three and a half years and we were we needed to do reforms That's why I was there because they really needed me or in my colleague the one who get in at the same time but people which I was I had a different background. I was in other places. I was In other faculties. So people were really suspicious and they tend to tell our students about that But the first year I get in I had Really interesting collaboration from the engineering faculty because they knew the story So they were like my partner partners in crime So we will tend to create this amazing experience for our fine arts art students And my students were like really when they get into the engineering faculty I don't know why they think they go into a really weird environment But because I as a student and as a student in that faculty I had many friends in In the engineering department. I'm telling them you will gain with this collaboration I get many works because engineers are a lot and they tend to have a job when they finish their course So that's what happened to me. I ended up doing lots of communication designer with engineers because I Went to the engineering department at Lisbon University 30 years ago because they had a pirate radio. They had lots of great parties and so The photography department was there. So it was something that I did in my own time So I was telling them about my own experience and how I gain with these collaborations That's why I think that we had lost in that faculty the The this amazing atmosphere of being able to go other places and like they were at sometimes they tell you that's about eight Stations to go or they have a bus to the other faculty and they said oh, it's so far away It's like eight tube stations a or a 15 minutes Uh Bus trip. Do you think it is it far away? It's ridiculous. It's just nearby So we also have students from the science faculty Doing a minor because in our reform with exchange. Oh, we credit students We tend to have more informal ways of credit them so they can go to other faculties to have some credits there Did I answer it? Anything Thank you And it was very I noted down a few things, but it was like a whole world of references My question is because they The challenge I find it very challenging to bring people from various backgrounds to work together on the same thing What are the most common? Let's say language barriers that you had language not in terms of English Spanish or everybody in terms of translating the content of one discipline to another And I have a second one also Go ahead. Yeah The second one is you mentioned museums and also the there are two things that Um There's also something that interests me and one of them is the history then the fact that we are creating content all the time as a society that we kind of tend to lose The importance of let's say the relevance or the habit of having a history other than clearing cookies and How the museum space or a space that is Designated to a certain kind of contact with art has changed or would need to if it needs to change Let's say a sort of meaning because museums originally were designed that spaces for scientists or for people to work specifically in those spaces and then it became open to public and to To the to join and then it become common kind of commercial and now Yeah These are thank you. Okay for the first one. I think that I always have amazing talks with my students when they Arrived at the end of the semester and they had to present their work and they tend to be super stressful and They say oh, but they are not and because I'm telling them Please write your blog for me to be aware ahead of time of your problems And for me to get in touch with your problems And I can ask for the the project with the Romanian students and it was from a girl from the fine arts faculty I asked them but we decide this with my colleagues, of course I will ask the group to come into the fine arts faculty for a meeting with me to ask them because they had a really great Project a game about that our discoveries and it was a really amazing product I put something else on them some more responsibilities So I asked them to come to my faculty to have a chat with me and they came and they improved the the interface of their project so Because they were like communication issues were all the time happening and they tend to wow I don't like their colors But they think that I cannot change them because of their I have to to change the programming and so And I was working in in multimedia content. So I know if people want to change the colors They will do it if you persuade them in the right way They will so it's like mediate mediating the these discussions Like tend to let them go let them connect asking them Are you meeting on skype or did you go to the other campus or did you invite your the other students from the engineer faculty To come to the fine arts faculty. So we are like in mentoring but in a kind of with deadlines and I I know head of the the public presentation if they had problems or not or if they I tend to to follow Things and that makes things easier because that was what Before the engineering faculty were trying to do these projects with other faculties from the arts fields in lisbon And it never it failed But because we we are me and my colleagues that were really into a teamwork trying to Help students and we contact each other by email during the week. We send emails and things tend to These issues tend to go In a easy easier way. I think that's For the second question. I was uh when I was play working in play mode with Pedro Gadaño the architect I was telling you in the beginning He was coming from MoMA and he was like teaching me lots of things about new museum practices And one of them was precisely to change museums behaviors He had the chance of opening this now is again in united states But for the last four years he was at math with a totally different Program for the museum that we didn't have such An environment in lisbon before it was The architectural which is very innovative. That's the the for the last four years and the director who came from New york to open and to make the he did 81 exhibitions during four years, which is a lot In two facilities to museum facilities So what he was advising was for the museum as a an activist place where There is but yesterday I was in your contemporary art museum And I saw the research center visual culture research center and I was okay. That's the the way We should go and the the seeing history exhibition. I was happy to see like in in the in the wall that The curator was criticizing previous Curators of laziness. That's almost what I do also in the catalog for math He's like saying there was lots of laziness people from the art history don't get into engineering departments. They don't care how to emulate these simulations that we were doing the doing in the in the 90s They don't care at all what we what we were producing at that time to keep that knowledge So there's this laziness in our cultural Sectors that should wake up for the for all these transformations for all these because these days we tend to be I mean book arrest eating I don't know brazilian food listening to some seen manga from asia listening for We are in a globalized world or it's we have to Work differently I don't know. I don't have a formula. I just Think that that's my body of References, I would say Don't know if did I answer it? properly Uh, yes, I was in lisbon all last month for research I was I was I was surprised to discover that Depression rates are high in portugal, especially among women and also portugal ranks low in terms of like happy countries Um, also for my research. I saw that the culture is attached to sadness as seen in the fado music and also this uh, sadad What can we as artists do to uplift? I guess cultures that could be considered more sad And uplift them into more happier states Oh, thank you for your question. I think Uh, you touch a point that I really I cannot bring any everything, but there's this body of research from germany from Sebastian the turning and it was like speaking about designing for the good life, which is I find very important arari is another Scholar who's speaking about how we can These days one of the main fields of research is about happiness But I'm I was living in brazil and brazilians are always happy and they always tell you they are they are happy Portuguese we will always tell you that they are really unhappy They are they are they they tend to have all the world in their bags. So I think that's really cultural. It's um Something that we should uh research in future, but we should also avoid bias the Um Facts or something that I didn't bring to our discussion That this morning you were talking about how we can avoid populism I would say to go into facts checking to to check all the facts and Doing research is the only the only way to avoid populism because we are never sure and if If someone can tell you if we are going into a crisis or not or we never know It's like no one knows so these days and we were living into a crisis for the last 10 years in portugal And I must tell you I went my my life would be different if we didn't have this crisis I wasn't in norway. I wasn't so it's like looking for happiness without fear because I think we are in this new trend of Everything is new gadgets gadgets in this culture where We create crises to make people fear to make them I don't know which it's provocative, but just to know in this kind of Setting is there still a place for an ancient image of the artist as a kind of genius Individual who is developing without others This artistic Works, you know what I mean? So it's it's it's also a changement of a paradigm a complete change of a paradigm or did you have such Students who had such a strong personality artistic personality that they wanted to develop things also in an individual way Yes, and all the faculties about Autorial work and that was one of our problems. I was reading this afternoon. There's a Mexican artist who is now in Portugal and he's saying that Teaching students arts art students has Leonardo da Vinci's It's the cancer of the art faculties because we are teaching them and I used to tell my student there are Leonardo da Vinci's are not the The the majority of you so it's maybe one in Each 15 years So we are doing it wrong because we we need to prepare the average student Not the special one You will always find a way to do into the art market or whatever or to maybe Not into the art market, but they will go So we need to focus instead of the average students who need to earn a living and we are human beings and we Won't have to design for the good living. So I think that's the the main goal and to forget They will still exist. They will but we need to forget the as a paradigm of the art student Profile as someone who says lots of gifts Don't need any teaching because he knows how to goes Thank you How to maybe my last question from from I said because we can also continue in an informal way by making a drink and discussions and How do you see because you're talking about happiness on one side and then About raising a critical view on the world How this matters? You know what I mean, so We shouldn't be too happy neither Maybe not too critical too, but How how do you deal with this? No, I think we should be very critical and to be very critical make us suspicious In a fun way because we all I was thinking this morning In terms of like I have a quote from The colombian mayor Cynicism Civvism against cynicism and I think it's like to these days young people tend to be really What bolter Says that this cynical They don't believe in huge narratives in ideologies and anything So they had this cynicism which is but in in a way you can use it in a really playful Way where you can merge both. I would say but always with a critical sense. We always with a Really a mindset where I got my suspicions, but I can't go and see what's going on In the last Narrative and it's a more remix way, you know, it's just something More informal, I would say so we should all encourage you in this way Thank you very much for this fascinating talk. I think The participants of the cultural economy are a little bit tired. It has been a long day So enjoy the evening enjoy the drinks and the next day to all the other people who came this evening Thank you for the attention and we hope to see you soon again at the Goethe Institute