 Good evening. Thank you for joining us tonight. My name is Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald, and I'm your host we're going to be Giving some comments on a film that you're going to be watching later this evening a very powerful film called Memphis Montgomery to Memphis and that film documents the life of Dr. Martin Luther King and his struggle and his lead on the civil rights Joining me in the studio today. I'm very honored to have two very special people here with me from Hartford, Connecticut We have the wonderful Reverend Earl W. Lawson. Thank you so much for joining us here Reverend. It's a privilege We also have here in the studio a longtime resident of Davis many of you know Dick Holstock. Thank you so much for joining us. Nice to be with you. Thank you We're gonna be commenting on this very important film that documents the life of Dr. Martin Luther King and This incredible journey that he led during a 12-year period He was a leader in the civil rights movement What? You were with a group of people dick that took a bus from Davis to Montgomery, Alabama And I've heard you talk about it before and it was such a powerful powerful thing for you describe it to me What it meant to you when you were there and how you brought that back to the Davis community? Yeah, I guess first of all I have to say that we're gonna see a lot of footage in that video later on That shows the what was happening in those days some of the horrible things were happening to people in this country and Watching television in those days. I don't see how anybody could possibly not want to go and stop this from happening Further in our society So we were very fortunate that Dr. King invited people from churches all over the country to come and join him and a combination of the different churches here in Davis got together and We arranged a full bus load from Davis to go down there It was an incredible experience The the the contrast we saw between the reception we got from our black black brothers and sisters in in In Montgomery was just so that was just so wonderful to us. How many people went I think about 34 Yeah, and yet and then we when we saw the way we were treated By the white people that were standing on the sidewalk spitting in the face of the The preacher of our church here in Davis the community church at that time It was an amazing experience So not only were black people treated poorly, but those white people who were the sympathizers with them were also treated Absolutely. Oh, yeah And when when people went down to respond to Martin's call the only safe place was in that Black community once you got down there, you better be sure you were in that that Community The interesting thing is that even those who went down on the buses from all over the country Their eyes were open too because they never ever dream They would run into such spontaneous hospitality some would say if It were reversed I'm not too sure whether we will open up our community our beds our food no as eagerly as they do it now the overall thrusts of the people Going into the South upon the invitation of Martin Was a penetrating Confrontation to the South itself Because those people who went in were going in Integrated they were blacks and whites and everybody going in although where we were going it was separated and segregated and all It gave the community People who were in opposition to us a chance to see that White and black and other Nationalists could actually live together as human beings. This was the first kind of Confrontation to tell them it can work if you understand we'll be trying to do yeah your point about how much Better you fell when you were around black people It's so well taken. I mean I I wasn't at all uncomfortable at all in that situation But I was dead uncomfortable when I was out of the range of the black community Because you saw the hostility because all the hostility of where I want it and of course we were sort of prepared for it We we read about it and we saw what was going on on television But I the one point that I would like to really make is that we had to do some soul searching when we came back We were only there a very very short time We were welcomed in and they we won't were welcomed out So they didn't have to keep track and take care of us like they had to so we came back pretty quickly But on the way back we got to thinking about what was going on in California. Was it really different in California? And it was different, but there was a lot of problems in Davis and throughout California when you shared with me dick That shock that surprised the contrast when you came back to California back to our community of Davis at the time It was such a stark contrast Well, excuse me start contrast, but there was a lot of similarities and you shared with me some of the discriminatory practices that our own town had at that time just briefly mentioned three things I think might be useful Almost every piece of property in Davis had a restrictive covenant saying that you could not sell to to Jews African-American people are Mexican-American that was on the restrictive covenant on the property that you bought them There's the piece of property that I owned on K Street, which was just built It was three years old at that time had it on it as did other properties here in town now I must say though in those days The Byron-Rumpford Fair Housing Act had passed but most people didn't know that they just saw that piece of paper and felt that they weren't Able to sell it which legally they they were not allowed to discriminate, but it was happening all the time So that was true and as far as rentals were concerned Many black students that came to Davis as they were more coming in those days Found that they couldn't find an apartment to rent in Davis So we had to go to the apartments and ask for an apartment as a white person And they would say well, we've got three apartments and we said well Let me go tell my cousin that you've got your cousin happen to be My black cousin I want to get an apartment for him. It was a heart-searching experience for many people because No matter how eager they were to answer the call of Martin As you have said very clearly it's easy to go in and come out The problem is although we we had the people coming in to help us It is different if you have to live In that situation day by day You can easily easily go back home and business as usual search your heart. No We found out under the leadership of Martin that the people not only Came briefly and shortly some of them they came finally made the Plunge into dedication to take their gifts back into the South to help us in the struggle We needed all kind of gifts to do it but if you went in for a few days and and Left that meant the gifts of organization and legal counseling anything would go back in those buses home so our challenge was to get people to Commit larger time Under the peril and the danger of their life so that we could really Really help the people down in the South Galvanize how did they do that? What were some examples of what? People in organizations. Yeah, that's right. It was through several kind of organizations and we had people who was skilled enough To take the people who were coming down and to do a whole lot of things one was to train them how to survive if they were attacked how to practice now violence to screen them to find out what Skills they had and tell them what slots they could fit in to help us Well, one of the greatest contributions that happened Was on the level of the presence of the college student because they brought all kinds of skills in terms of it all day including The skill of investigating, you know, when you deal with problems and all and writing up significantly intelligently the reports and all like that we could have could not have half survived if We had not have those talents committed the long enough to stay to help us Are you talking about the student nonviolent? Yeah committee That was a wonderful thing and we had a number of students the year before that went down on the Mississippi Freedom March is that it went down for registering voters in Yes, in Mississippi through the the Davis's Cal Agui Christian Association. We had a whole bunch that that first summer and the group was called snick What did that stand for again student nonviolent coordinating committee? That was wonderful that so many kids, but you know, don't you think that there were still a lot number of Very brave courageous white people in the south to that supported Yeah, one day when they made the committee some Didn't come down the state. No, but they were really Chow. Oh, yes, we couldn't have done it without the presence in the marches or in the inside of the area There is a kind of bravery and courage if it's awakened Even though they knew there was danger all the time down there they risk their lives In such a way that and stayed long enough to build To build a force that did not cave in The problem with the beginning of thing was all they knew they knew it was dangerous When they start killing people Our job was how on earth are you gonna keep those people down there when you see the high prices debt? So when the three civil rights Leaders disappeared and got killed Hundreds and thousands of a flew down not only we flew down to stabilize those Corporal stations where the people were working and to prove by our presence That we were not gonna let depth the threat of death Drive us out. If we were there to put our warm bodies on the line. We felt that it Probably would influence them to stay and it worked because some of what when those three Persons disappeared we knew they were killed and if these these students start packing the league It's one thing to work in danger, but when you start losing troops. So we we finally Which effectively the level where we had enough of them to stay like you say they lay down their lives Nick when you came back to Davis Were you and the group of 35 other people that that went on that bus were you how were you treated when you returned? What did people treat you differently? I had lots of friends who had similar Political social feelings that I had and so I was welcomed back and I will I've always been part of a music community of days and we learned how to sing those wonderful Freedom songs and we would sing those and think and have lots of Fun doing that. But I will say that the pastor of the community church Suffered a great deal a number of people Resigned from it. Oh, yeah, they lost here in Davis and it was it was a very sad period of time and The pastor of the Methodist Church was felt uncomfortable there, too Several people moved out a couple it started another couple of churches whose names I will not That where people went after they left the churches that were very actively involved in that period But I think Davis, you know, I think this is a university community And I think people are educated and intelligent enough to realize that that that was not right And we were able to make some amazingly good Correctional things that happened there. I I'm really curious to know what you think Reverend Everyone's know while I say well we take one step forward but we seem to take two steps back Then I just don't know whether we're ready I can see that there has been some wonderful changes in the past now We're coming up to now and sometimes I'm wondering if we're not If we're not careful, we don't work hard to hang on to these things that we become this if we slide back And Reverend before you answer that question at my apologies. I wanted to let our audience know I Introduced the Reverend Lawson, and I didn't tell you who exactly he is the Reverend Lawson Was a friend was a friend and colleague of the Dr. Martin Luther King He knew Dr. King since He was what did you say? So we have a legend here in our presence not only was he involved but he knew him very intimately He knew him very closely good friends of him So back to Dick Holstock's question one of the one of the deepest insights in our struggle was To reckon with the fact that the oppressor is never going to give up never No Oppressing group ever intelligently gives people freedom We found out if you ever going to be free it has to Come from our posture and not because the oppressor gives it to you So there's a lot of danger and peril because when the pressure Increases on the part of the opponent You don't know what's going to happen to people Who are trying to help us and they can easily get discouraged the best of them it is not easy to Work in a midst of danger productively and faithfully with deep commitment It's so easy to get out of it. It gets too tough So some people left it's just that dangerous Martin King brought to the forefront endurance Stictuativeness passive resistance no retreat even in all of his marches and all he never entertained retreat So even though some people lost courage and hope He was always there what were going any kind of danger So he had a group that keep stimulating We had enough people to believe in his leadership that filled the vacancies when people Would leave it it it became So adventuresome and right what we were doing That in mushroom people kept coming It did not reduce all do they were going forward and going back They discriminatory practices in the south were so infrastructure. It's so institutionalized You know into the it's hard to destroy conditioned racism So you're always going to have a struggle if you know If you don't record the fact that it's going to be a tough fight You're never going to get in they're never going to give it give up easily never You were on that bus trip you came back you've seen all these changes over the years And you know there have been many changes many advances Now though we're in the year 2004 where we have a president with Some very independent Ideas he seems to be marching to his own drum Spending billions of dollars on a war where other countries don't want to join him It's affecting our economy It just healthcare is outrageous and inaccessible to many people Are we I looked at I look at dr. King's speeches And so many speeches that he gave about vietnam You could replace vietnam in those speeches and put iraq and the same holds true nowadays It are we making progress do you feel we are have we taken some steps back? Well, we need to listen to what dr. King said and and recognize that that that we are Steering away from the path that he provided for us to go on and I I I for one would want to do what work I can and I really feel Like the river was saying, you know It gets tiring after so many years you keep on trying to to do stuff and and I'm I'm frankly I'm I'm tired of having to re-deal with those same kinds of issues all over again But we can't afford to let go we've got to keep on Working we've got to do what we can to stop this when I mean when I went and marched this year in san francisco That march I've never I've never been in anymore. I've been in lots of marches in my life But I've never been in any march that that resembled the numbers of people that were opposed to the war But we tried to we we couldn't even get started because there were so many people We stood there for hours waiting to get started because the end of the line was at the end of Was where the where the body was taken that was two miles away And we had started packed people coming from every direction And it was never covered properly in the press as so many things were never covered properly in the press in your time so the The leadership of king Does not rest on immediate victories. No he is a Hard leader to follow because he can see the obstacles But he can see way beyond All of the obstacles if you if you study Martin Luther king's speeches and all he talks about a future That will become a reality no matter how many Times it goes backwards and forwards and people fall on use a wrong methodology and all He had such profound faith In the reality that that kind of future that talks about the whole family Of brothers and sisters including the people who are now opponents who are now opponent I don't know too many people who had that long range View of martin king for instance The night before he died he said i may not get to the prime of slain, but we as a people What what's this we as a people would get to the prime of slain some people think In terms of he's only talking about the black people But if you read the end of his speech, I have a dream It's for all he talks about the slain Master children all and then he he he did a geographical flight on us. He took us from new hampshire down across pennsylvania to california came back to Stone Hill and georgia what he was saying was when all that happens. What's that future? When that happens Then we can say thank god almighty. We free the free The freedom he was talking about was not before it happened which was started with the future. Yeah Nice to say that it makes you feel better when you yeah, we can't let up. Can we we can't give up We can't Uh, can I ask a question? Please do. Please do ask a question. Okay. You're five years older than martin king You're five you're five years older than dr. King one. No, I'm older than that. Yeah, it was 10. I'm about nine years older well You know it from what he was 16 But yet you talk of him as your leader Well, what point did you really? Fight figure out this guy had the gift that it was going to take okay to believe I'm not only I'm also a preacher Yeah, so that martin and I like others Or train theologically So that uh So that our roots the root system is really biblical What martin did was he did not spend all of his time poop pulpit preaching Explain the theology he did a marvelous thing by living it out He didn't he didn't get in the poop and keep talking about all this bible stuff He knew from the base of the bible that his His calling was on the level of healthfulness service Rather than the theology The theology was just the inspiration for him to go you cannot really read the bible unless you know you've got to be a servant In the midst of people And the emphasis is his practical Experience over against a background of the theology He didn't carry the bible. He carried out what the bible say You understand he took off the preacher's robe and he got that way that people were and lifted them Did he have that when you first knew it when you knew him? Well, he was in college training then you know He was precocious But nobody Ever dreamed, you know, even when he went to Montgomery Nobody ever dreamed the escalation of his effectiveness Again, you would civil rights He was a big follower of gandhi, right? He was a very big follower of gandhi. I remember you shared that with us before That was a part of his methodology In approach to all this in the western world the non-violence. Yeah, uh civil disobedience. See it's not enough To criticize And stand against what's injuring you you have to find out not how to move It was causing me injury So that what he did what he he went to India But gandhi was dead then when he started on the ne'eru And he found out that the only way to really come alive As a warrior against evil is you not only got to believe it But you got to really do it the way you do it is It's dangerous. The way you do this. Don't take anymore from the enemy You keep him on his toes and you keep reminding them it's wrong even if you got to die You do not compromise with him anymore So that what king did king got on that line and never retreated You could hit him spit Threaten his life blow up the churches and all he kept marching What's tough about king is he has no space to retreat All right, so if anybody goes in the civil rights movement, he knows and he may get killed If you settle that then you can be a good warrior because most of us are not going to get killed Thank you so much. It's been an honor speaking with you both about this I'm sure we could we could have a show for two three four hours just talking about this That about wraps up our show, but you can hear more of Dick Holstock tomorrow. He's going to be playing at the The martin luther king celebration Yeah with the freedom singers Up tomorrow at the at the martin luther king celebration over at the varsity theater at 12 noon And the reverend earl w. Lawson is going to be our honorary guest speaker and He will be able to hear his profound message that we've all been honored to listen to We can hardly wait to hear and thank you all for joining us And please be sure to stay tuned so you can watch the wonderful documentary This evening. Thank you. Bye. Bye