 What do you have? You got to watch. No. This is Stanton Friedman. I'm a nuclear physicist with a very strong interest in flying saucers. I'm in Kansas City, Missouri, on July 24th, 1991. I'm here to do an interview with Gerald Anderson, a very important witness with regard to the recovery of a crashed flying saucer in New Mexico in July 1947. We have just had a visit with a polygraph examiner who says he has seen no evidence of deception. This is after spending several hours with myself and Gerald. I'll sleep with Gerald. A full report will be forthcoming. So with that, we will talk to Gerald Anderson. Can you state your name, please? My name is Gerald Anderson. Where were you born and when? I was born October 4th, 1941 in Annapolis, Indiana. Okay. And give me a summary of what happened in 1947 with regard to a crashed flying saucer in New Mexico. Well, we had just moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico, on July 4th, 1947. This was a proximal lady that was the day before we, my cousin Victor, my father, my brother Glenn and myself, we drove down to the Plains of San Augusto, which is west of Socorro, New Mexico, in the Magdalena Dattel area. And we were down there looking for bandit in Moss Aged, which, according to my uncle Ted and my cousin Victor, was probably in the area. My brother being an amateur rockhound and wanted to get some of this. And there was a way of showing us around the area. And they had relatives down in Magdalena that they wanted to introduce us to. So we had gone down there and we got down in the horse springs area and had driven off onto the Plains down an old rutted road for a mile or so. And it seemed like a long ways. We parked the car, got out of the car and walked down a hillside in the semi forest. I guess you could say it had pineal trees and scrub oak and stuff like that. And we'd walked, well, that scrub oak into the cedar. And walked down the hillside into an arroyo, a dry wash. And then walked south down a dry wash toward where the agates were supposed to be at. And as we came around to abandon the arroyo that had pineal and cedar trees growing on them, we were able to see farther ahead down the arroyo. And on the next ridgeline, there was a large silver disc-shaped object embedded in the side of the ridgeline. And there was debris and wreckage and stuff string about the area. But mainly this thing was intact. I would estimate its size from an adult perspective to be something like 35 feet in diameter. I've heard other people who were there say they thought it was like 50 feet, but as an adult I would say about 35 feet in diameter, quite large. When we got up to it, there were four bodies there, not human. There were two of them who were obviously dead. One of them was obviously very badly injured. And one of them apparently suffered no ill effects or didn't appear to be injured and was ambulatory, was mobile. I was just sitting there next to the one that was still alive and appeared to be dead. Were they right next to the vehicle? Right next to it, right under the edge of it. And this craft had apparently come in from the east, bounced off one ridgeline, plowing through this royal area and it crashed into the ridgeline and embedded itself. And they were sitting back under the edge. It was kind of tilted up like this and they were sitting back under the edge here. And I'm assuming that this one creature that was all right had laid this material on the ground, but it looked like unrolled tinfoil that these other three creatures were laying on. Like it was trying to, like you do a person in shock and put them on a blanket, kind of thing. And apparently it had some boxes there around it and had apparently been trying to get first aid or help these other creatures when we first got there. And as we approached the creature, if you're back like this, like it was in fear of us, like we were going to hurt it, and it wasn't very long, you know, trying to communicate with the adults where it seemed to calm down and just sat there and kind of looked back and forth, watching them apparently trying to figure out what was going on. What did it look like a little bit more? These creatures, all of them were all about four foot tall, four and a half feet tall. They had very large heads that were shaped larger on the top and they kind of tapered down. Not to a real sharp point, but just tapered down where they were thin. And they had very large, very large oval shaped or almond shaped, I guess you could say, black eyes that had, they were so shiny they had almost a bluish tint to them when the light reflected on them. Their skin coloration, I think the best way I could describe that is kind of a bluish tinted milky white. It looked like someone in shock. And the ones that were laying on the ground really, really looked more that way, more blue. How about ears, nose? No, there was no visible ears on the creatures except like if you were just to cover your ear like this to where there was just a riser and then a hole without, you know, your ear lobe and the rest of the ear there. How about nose? The nose was very, very small, almost imperceptible and just like two holes straight in. And the lips were just a straight line. It was like a cut and you couldn't see any visible lips like we had. It was just a slit. What hair color? I never made a sound. Pardon? What hair color? There was no hair. They were completely bald. And no sounds? I never heard a sound of one out of any of the creatures, including the one that was... Did you see fingers? Yeah, they had fingers like this. They didn't have a little finger. They just had the thumb, had three extra digits except the center digit was longer and the other two were about the same size. They were very long and slender. I looked very delicate and I've made the statement before and I'll make it again. I think it would have made an excellent violinist because of the structure of their hands. There were wearing one piece suits. All of them were dressed exactly the same. It was sort of a real shiny silvery gray color. No zippers, buttons? No, I saw no zippers, no buttons. Insignia? No, no insignias. The only thing that was different, you know, they all had this, but the only thing that was different from me, the silvery gray thing suit, was that down, like the seam on it, like it was a seam on the shoulder and around the car, it was trimmed in what appeared to be maroon, like courty. Then the suits were continuous with their foot gear. You could see right about this area down, it seemed to be less pliable than it was up here. Like this was a stripper area, like it would boots or shoes or something. But they were all dressed exactly the same. Okay, so you and your family are talking back and forth, wondering what was going on. What did your family say? Well, yeah, my brother, one of the first remarks I heard he made was, that's a goddamn spaceship. There was bodies up there, and I was told not to go up there, which I did. How old was your brother at the time? He was in his early 20s, I think, 20, 20 months. He was a lot older than you were? Oh, yes, considerably. When we got out there, I kind of meandered off to one side. This thing was cocked up, and I was standing here. The bodies were here, and everybody else was kind of down here, except my cousin Victor was over here playing, looking at his gaping hole on the side of this disc, and it shaped just like a discus, except for a round dome that was up on top and there was this big gaping gash in here where you could see inside and it looked like a double hole. How big length? The gash? Well, it covered a greater majority from the center of the craft now. There was just like a gaping hole in there, and I'm thinking, you know, it's like about 30 feet, 35 feet in diameter, so we're talking about 17 feet maybe. And most of that one side was ripped open like that, and you could see inside, and you could see another double hole like in there, and there was these rows of components that was on there, and there was lights that flashed on, some of them were steady, some were flashing. There was a lot of debris and stuff hanging out of the hole. There was evidence that there had apparently been fire. It looked like it had been burnt along the edge there, the gash. This wasn't a gash that could have been caused by the thing coming into the ground. It wasn't at the leading edge of the vehicle. No, no, this was in the side like it almost appeared, it was elliptical. It almost appeared as if something the same shape as the disc we were looking at had hit that same, you know, had hit the disc and left an imprint that pretty closely approximated the outside diameter of the disc itself. And it appeared to be caved inward, and kind of hit it like this and just crumpled and caved in and ripped it open. Okay, so you're there, you take all this and everybody's mystified. What were the circumstances outside? Hot, cold? Very, very hot, and well to me, being the first time in New Mexico and coming from back east, that dry heat was just like being inside of it. And it was unbelievable to me. And that was the odd part about this thing, the closer you got to it, the cooler it was. And standing under it in the shade there, next to these creature's bodies it was like refrigerated air conditioning. Did you feel air coming out of this thing? No, it was just like it was ambedian. And I remember reaching up and putting my hand on the side of it and I think I was afraid it was going to hit my head because there was enough room for me as a small child, you know. I was approximately the same size of these creatures to walk up under there and stand in it, but I kind of did like that, put my hand up against this thing. What did it feel like? It was ice cold, it felt like it just came out of a freezer. Was it smooth? Was it right? It was very smooth. It had a very smooth texture to it. It was obviously made out of metal, it was very solid and was very cold. Ice cold. And there was a smell in the area. It smelled volatile, acreage like acetone. And that seemed to be coming out of that gash, that smell. But the closer you got to this thing, the cooler it was. So I kind of remained there and I guess they were over here, my father and my uncle Ted and my brother. And uncle Ted was trying to talk to this thing in Spanish and of course it didn't understand what he said. And dad tried to talk to it and then they tried sign language and that didn't work. And I don't know for some reason, I just, I reached down and touched it, this one that was laying next to me. And when I touched it, I realized, you know, I jumped back. It scared me and startled me because I suddenly realized that these weren't dolls. I thought they were plastic dolls. And I, you know, I was still in my mind that these are moving dolls until I touched it. And I realized, you know, this was a dead thing. I'd seen dead relatives before and I unfortunately had made a mistake one time touching their relative who was in a casket and I just knew this is a dead thing. And it scared me and I ran around behind my father and my uncle. And the thing was sitting there on the ground and it kept looking back and forth and it just had its hands like a sense of life and it just kept looking back and forth between the three of them and like it was trying to understand. And all of a sudden it just turned and looked right straight at me between my uncle Ted and myself. And this is when it was just like an explosion of things in my head, things I started, you know, feeling just terrible depression and loneliness and fear and just, you know, awful, awful feelings. It just suddenly burst into my mind. And I don't know if that meant that it was communicating with me and I was the only one there to communicate with because I was a kid. I don't know. I turned and ran and I ran across the Aroya and up on the area that had bounced off of during the crash. And I was just standing there looking down at the scene, you know, and my family and off in the distance I could see cattle grazing. I could see a windmill and I could see dust trails out on the plains out there. And oh, I was there for a while and then I came back down. I guess we were there, you know, Victor was in, when I got back down there, Victor was up in the crack and Ted yelled at him to get out there and Glenn went over and grabbed him by the belt and jerked him off. That's your brother. Yeah. And jerked him off and said, get out of there. You could cause a scene to explode and kill us all, you know. And of course he went prowling around in there. I was kind of standing off to one side looking. That's why I knew that there was, I could look off these rocks that I was standing on right into this thing. That's why I knew, you know, about the lights and the components and stuff. And then I don't know, I heard other people talking and I turned and it was a group of people coming up the Arroia from out on the plains from the south. They had come up there and of course they walked up and was talking and How many? There was an older man and five younger students. Boys, girls? There was three boys and two girls. And they were all, you know, introducing, talking to my father and my uncle and my brother. What did the older one look like? The leader of this group of men. He was wearing a pith helmet when he first came up. One of those kind of explorer helmets. And he was bald. And I know that because he had taken it off and he had done this, you know, a couple of times with a handkerchief and put it back on. He was a bawling man. And he had a round face. He was very ready-complected. He was a big man. And he apparently was a doctor because they kept calling him doctor. And as I understand it was an archaeological group that was out there on some kind of summer thing. And they talked and he apparently was able to speak several foreign languages. And he tried to talk to this creature several times in different languages again to no avail. How did that happen to be there? Had he seen the thing? Well, they said they saw this thing come down the night before. A flame, you know. And they thought it was a meteorite. And they had talked about, well in the morning, you know, we'll go over there and see this where this meteor came down. That's what they thought it was. And when the sun came up the next morning, you know, and they got about their business and got up and somebody looked over and said, you know, they saw all the shiny metal and stuff across the planes there. And they realized it wasn't a meteorite. They had been in an airplane in Christ, so they all decided to go over there and see if there was anybody who was alive, you know, that was hurt to be in hell. They had driven on? No, they walked over, apparently. The way I understand it. And it's quite a ways across that plane. So it hadn't taken a very long time to do this. Or they may have had a vehicle, I don't know. That's an assumption, I think, on my part. Right, so they're around with the family. But they came across the planes, none the less. I'm not sure if they drove or not. I didn't hear any calls. And then somebody else showed up. Yeah, they were down there just, oh, 15, maybe 20 minutes tops, you know, and they were picking up things, some of the students, and this doctor, Buzz Curtin, that they called him, this one girl went up and said, look, doctor, wouldn't this make a beautiful ring? And she was holding one. It looked like a red rod or a red tube of some kind of a silvery red. And he kind of snapped at her, you know, and put that down, Agnes, you don't know what that is. I think it hurt. She said, don't pick this stuff up. And she kind of said, well, yeah, okay, doctor. And then he went back to what he was doing and she walked away and put it in her pocket. And a lot of them were doing this, sort of picking up things and feeling things. I was picking up things and feeling things. It was all kinds of material, metal and stuff laying around. Then we heard it. I heard it anyway. Well, we all heard it. A sound of a motor coming like a truck. And I went back up the incline there to the ridge line and I could see out there and there was a truck coming up. It was an old pickup truck. It was sort of a beige color or a tan color thing. And it had a whip and a tan on it. And it stopped and this guy got out and he's wearing brown clothes. He had boots on and he's wearing a straw hat just like the kind Harry Truman always wore. And he had wire rim glasses. He was a big man. And he looked exactly like Harry Truman to me. I had seen it in the movie Tone News. He was president then. Yeah, I was well aware of who Harry Truman was. So everybody was. He was kind of a hero. And this guy looked like him except bigger. And he didn't look as old either. His hair was kind of light gray. And he walked over there and they got to talking with everybody and he told them that he worked out on the planes out there and that he made maps. And he had seen the wreckage from out there on the planes and he saw the people and he thought it was a plane wreck and something was going on and he came over there to see. And he hadn't been there for very, very few minutes when we heard all kinds of motors and engine straining and stuff. And here comes a military car with a big white star on the side of it followed by a six-by, which is a military truck with a kind of canvas wagon type of canvas thing as full of soldiers that got guns. And right behind that was what we call a four-by, which is like a medium-sized Jeep truck situation and it had two big high whip antennas, all kinds of radio gear in the back and a guy back there with earphones and stuff on and he's working these radios and they all pulled up and stopped. Which direction had they come from? They came from the north, from the horse-springs area. So they could have come off the highway there? Oh yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how they got there. They came off the highway the same way we did. Well, in the meantime, when it stopped, this black soldier, the sergeant, and the reason I know he was the sergeant my brother told me he was, and he got out of this car and then a guy got out on the other side and he was, Glenn said he was a captain. He told me later he was a captain. And this guy had orange-red hair and all the soldiers of them were running over there, pointing guns at people and telling them, get away, get away, get away, you know? And when this creature saw these people, the military, he went nuts. He went into an absolute panic, worse than what he did when he saw us. Did he move around or just his eyes? He just, he just... Crazy. Yeah, like he was looking for a place to run and hide. But he never got up? Never got up. He never left the one injured one next to him. And this red-headed officer, this guy was a real butthole. He made all the threats. He threatened to have people shot if they didn't move away. To everybody? Get away, get away, you know? Well, shoot, get away from there. You know, just screaming and hollering. And he told my uncle and my father that if they didn't want to spend the rest of their life in prison, they would never say anything about what they saw there. If they ever wanted to see us kids again, they'd take the kids away and they'd never see the kids. You know, meaning me and Victor, that we'd better keep our mouths shut. If we did not, this is what was going to happen. They were threatening people and pushing people. The students as well? Yeah, they were hustling everybody. And one of the soldiers pushed my uncle. He had a rifle, I guess, and he shoved him back like that. Well, that was something he didn't do to my uncle, Ted. Ted had a violent temper. And he grabbed the rifle and reached over the top and smacked this guy and dropped him right there. And Ted had fought and dropped the hat. This guy is a cowboy. He'll hit you in a minute. And of course, when he did that, there was bolts opened, and I guess cocking your rifles, pointed guns at people, and everybody, Busker and Glenn and Dad, grabbed him, you know, pulled him back and got him away. Don't tell them, man, they're going to shoot. Don't do that, you know, trying to stop this. I think we came very close to having someone shot. Then it really started threatening, you know, and made the interview. Did the redhead do all the talking pretty much too? Pretty much. Except once in a while the sergeant would, you know, would chime in and make statements like that to other people in response to the redhead. Mainly it was the redhead. Was there a name tag? Yes, there was. His name was Armstrong. And I'm not sure if I know that from having read it or know that from remembering it and now being able to read it. In my memory or someone said that to me. His name was Armstrong. He was right here on his uniform. Now they chased you guys away pretty quick. Yeah, they did. And they hurted us up on cattle. And they moved us up to the Arroyo back in the direction we'd come from. Over the protests of this Dr. Busker, we said, no, no, we've got to go the other way. We came from, I don't care where you came from, get your ass up to the Arroyo. And they ran us up to the Arroyo. And so you'd get to your car. Right. Now they take us up to the Arroyo and just below the hill that we came down, they broke us off and moved us up the hill. Now this whole time, no one has ever frisked us down. No one has ever checked our pockets to see if we picked up any of this material. And this girl, Agnes, still has that stuff in her pocket and some of the other students had stuff. To my knowledge, up to that point, they had not been searched. Whether they did so afterward, I don't know. They never searched us ever. They run us back up the hill. And when we got to where the car was parked, where Daddy parked the car up there, there's a jeep with a guy sitting in the back and there's a machine gun in the back of this jeep and all these soldiers. The jeep pulls out. We're told to get in the car. We follow the jeep and the soldiers go with us all the way back out to the highway. When we get back out to the highway, they set us right there. They wouldn't let us out of the car. They wouldn't let us move forward. I don't know whether they're making a decision or what. When we got out to the highway, this place was absolutely full of military personnel, military equipment. There was airplanes sitting out there that they had landed on the highway. Did you see any airplanes when you were back at the site? Yeah. There was airplanes in the sky, but nobody thought much about it. I didn't think anything about it. I was used to airplanes being in the sky, having been raised in Indianapolis, Indiana, the home of the Nordam bomb site. The sky was always full of military aircraft. I never thought much about it. When we get back out to the highway, there's observation aircraft, high-winged aircraft, and there's one, what I know now, to be a C-47 settler and how we didn't hear that lands beyond me, and how you land. Well, of course, I guess you could land if you were a good pilot out there. There was no telephone poles right there. They had tore the fence down on the north side of that highway, and all this equipment was setting back up there. That plane was up there. They were taking stuff out of the plane. There was military ambulances, and there was trucks with, like, wreckers, cranes on them, and there was tankers, like maybe had fuel or water in them. It was just everywhere you looked, there was military. A major recovery operation. Yeah, it looked like an invasion force. It really did. And they were all wearing these light, light khaki uniforms. They didn't look like, you know, Oli draps. They were light khaki, and they all had the same patch over there. That kind of blue, funny patch with the circles on it, was on their shoulder. And a lot of... Did you have any clue as to where they came from? Did your brother or your... No, I don't know where they came from. I don't think anybody ever ascertained that. There were a lot of them had MP patches, and some of them were wearing nightsticks off of these webbed utility belts. They had nightsticks, and they had 45s in the holsters, you know, the automatics, and the full roaster. And these were the people who were given most of the orders. They had the road barricaded out there, and we sat there for a very long time, and you know, we were getting thirsty and everything, and we asked, you know, if we could go back to horse springs and get some water. Oh, no, no, you can't go through there. And right after that, they said, no, you just turn around, and you head out of here now, and you go to Socorro, and this is the redhead again. You keep your mouth shut, just keep going, and don't look back. Well, we drove away, you know, and Dad and I said, hell, we'll go to Magdalena, we'll get water in Magdalena, you know, because that's where John's reeled at. They're relatively intent. And so as we drove away, I was looking out the back window, and I could see Dr. Busker and these kids, and that guy that got out of the pickup was standing there, and this Dr. Busker was doing just like this in his redheaded officer's face, and he kept pointing back behind him. And I guess that meant, you know, we got to go back that way, and he was fed up with this guy or something, and he was shaking his finger in his face while they were yelling at each other. And that's pretty much the last, I saw the whole situation. I don't know what happened after that because we just kept going. Did you get home before dark? Oh, yeah, yeah, it was before dark. Of course, it was in the summertime, so you didn't get dark until way late. And we stopped in Magdalena very briefly, you know, and then just kept going. And the adults were really funny, you know, they were really scared. And I had very rarely, you know, of course I didn't know him that well, but over the years I knew that Ted was not much of a disciplinary, and he really didn't discipline the kids that much. But he really knocked the fire out of old Victor. Victor will want to talk about what we just saw, just saw Ted get telling him, shut up, don't talk about it. Nobody's talking about this. Finally, he just turned around and knocked the living hell out of Victor for shooting his mouth off. Did Ted work at San Diego then? Yes, he did. He was, he did something out there with the technical area. Had a clearance? Yes. And... Later your dad worked out at San Diego? Yes, he did at Security Day. He worked there for years until he returned. Until he returned. And dad had some very high clearances. Okay. When we got home, Mom was over at Uncle Ted's house and Mom perceived instantly that something was wrong and so what's wrong with him. They decided to tell him, they did, and of course Isabel, oh my God, you saw demons, you saw the devil. Isabel was Ted's wife. She developed the religious Catholic person who thinks anything that isn't a vision, let's say the Virgin Mary or Jesus is quote-unquote demons and that's what we saw. And of course Ted, you know, he's put it off. And we really never talked about it much in the family because of the reaction it got. And my dad was really afraid and so was Ted. Glenn especially, because Glenn made the statement about when he first saw the military, he told my father, he said, and Ted and everybody there, don't let them, some bitches know I'm a Marine. Don't let them know. And of course nobody did and he was in Spain close so he had a pair of blue jeans and I was in Spain close so he didn't look like a military or I'm sure his ass had been in real trouble. And they never checked. They just assumed, I guess, that we were right. Did they ask your names? Oh yeah, they took our names. They got all that from my dad and my brother just very cursory wouldn't, you know, just hardly talk to him at all. He let dad and Ted do most of the circumstances. And of course they never really asked me any questions at all. You were just a kid? Yeah, I was just a kid. Well, you first went public with this. Now, let's first square away. All the other four that you were with or did? Yes. That's been some time. My brother died of a heart attack in Mexico City. My dad died of a heart attack in 1978. And Ted and Victor were killed in a automobile accident in the mid-60s and I assume I was 65. Right, now there's a strange diary that's turned up. How did that happen? Well, when I went to my father's funeral in 1978 a lot of dad's belongings were personal belongings were given to us boys. You didn't live in the area? Oh no, I lived in the military. Yeah, I've been in the military and subsequently turned to the military and moved to Colorado immediately. And... Your dad had remarried a couple of times. Oh yeah, this was... So dad was on his third wife. And his personal belongings and stuff, you know, were kind of given to my two brothers and myself. My cousin, Valley Jean, was there at the funeral? That's Ted's daughter. Yes. And she came up and was talking to me and she said, here you were there, you need to have this too. And she handed me these photocopies. And at first, you know, I thought, well, you know, what is this dad's diary? She said, no, it's my dad's diary. But you were there, you need to have this. And then at dawn of the point I was looking at because I read a little bit of it. And so I said, yeah, okay, you know, and I didn't want to talk about it at the funeral because Roz's side of the family, God bless her. That's your dad's third wife. God bless her. I loved her. They were very religious and they would have viewed this exactly the same way as Isabella had as evil. And I really didn't want to have any problems with them. You know, we were kind of on shaky terms. We didn't see eye to eye religiously so we were not quite good. You're active in religion now, aren't you? Yes. You're a deacon in the Episcopal church. Right. Okay, that means you actively participated in church. Well, yeah, I let you Christian ministry. Okay. So I, yes, I actively participate. I serve on the altar. What do you do for a living now? I'm a security officer in the state of Missouri. And you've been doing police sort of work for several years? Oh, yes, yes. About nine years, although... And you also are going to college to be a nurse and you've already got a couple of associate degrees from community college. You're right. Yes. I'm one associate of science and one associate of general studies and I'm working toward my bachelor's of nursing and roughly two years I will have my bachelor's of nursing. I'll be a licensed... Now to be a security officer you have to be licensed by the state of Missouri? Yes, you have to be a certified law enforcement officer which means that you have to have gone to the state academy, the department of public safety. So that's not just a pickup thing? Oh, no, no. You have to... It's a profession. Yes, it's definite. Okay. And you have to work for the state under these conditions. You have to have a prior law enforcement experience. Now, when we get back to the diary for just a minute when you were hypnotized by John Carpenter a psychiatric social worker and he was asking you questions about the diary apparently you've been told that there were a number of copies of that around? Uh, yeah. Something buried out maybe there too? Yeah, as I understood. Well, in fact in conversations with Valley Jean after the fact after I got involved in his thing through the Unsolved Mysteries thing I was told that that wasn't the only diary that what I had was a copy what was a photocopy. Okay. And that there were a lot of these copies around and apparently Uncle Ted or someone had put these out through different people in the family and friends and stuff for reasons I don't know to keep them from getting lost or something like that. Okay. Now, when I asked you for the original you contacted who? Well, yeah, Valley Jean. That was Valley Jean. Okay. She was in a convent. Right. And she was reluctant to do anything. You had a call a number of times. That's correct. And you talked to the bishop? Somebody talked to him. Yeah, I talked to a bishop. And he convinced her to send the stuff to me. Yes, apparently. Okay. Because I got it directly from Colorado with a cover letter that strongly indicated that she didn't want any more to do with this. That was part of the agreement. But she considered this the work of the devil or it was to that effect anyway. I think she's in the same opinion. Okay. So the work of the devil. See, all I ever had of this was the photographic copies that I had showed you originally. And as I understand it, you received the original copy. The original from which those have been made. They were partly burnt. She mentioned she had intended to burn them. But because of your persistence and with the agreement that I never contacted her, she would send them to me. And as you know, when I had forensic analysis done, it showed that the ink dated from the early 70s. The paper could have been available in 47. So it was clearly not an original. But it was also done before there was any publicity about this case. Anyway. Because I know I was the first one to get involved. Exactly. Now, as you know, we have discovered, not I, but you had identity sketches done by a police artist of the various people involved in this. Right. And as you know, there is a picture, several pictures that seem to indicate that Dr. Buskirk was Dr. Winford Buskirk, who had received his PhD at University of New Mexico. And you would describe him as in his late 30s, early 40s. It turns out he was 39 in 1947. He was bald and bald most of his life, even up to then. Did, was there other contact between you and Hay at that time, as far as you know? Your family and him or? I don't know. Not to your knowledge? I don't, not to my knowledge. I don't, I don't believe my dad had ever contacted him. There's a possibility that Ted may have and I'm not sure why I, I think Valigene had alluded to the fact that Ted had been in contact with him and that they had corresponded and this kind of thing. But as far as the personal knowledge of it, no. Okay, now you didn't tell your story really until the Unsolved Mysteries program was rerun in January of 1990? That's right. That's when you contacted them, got my address, wrote me, where they love to set that the program wasn't quite accurate. Well yeah, that was the whole thing. It started off as a fluke to begin with because everything that I saw didn't jive with what I had seen personally. I guess I was kind of missed. You know, here all these years, I had been primarily forced, you know, by, not only by others, but by, you know, my own sense of survival to keep my mouth shut and, wow, here it is, it's on TV. And you got it wrong. That's, you know, I just impulsively called a number and told the lady, wait a minute, you know, no, the thing was wrong. Well, how do you know that, sir? And I said, well, because I was there, that's why, and boy, that really apparently pulled somebody's string. Yeah, and the key thing that was wrong, of course, there were a few mistakes in the program was that they had that, the Barney Barnett, the civil engineer story over near Corona, and you knew that it was over in the plains. Right. There's a lot more. Well, yeah, and then the fact that the thing looked like a tent flat or a tent top hat and it didn't, it was this shape and the Barney Barnett or whoever the guy in the truck was did not drive right up to it on a road. It wasn't parked conveniently next to a thoroughfare, you know, and it was just things like that, and I don't know, I just, for some reason I thought, well, you know, chief, look. It's already public. Yeah, it's stories out, and let's get it right, you know. Of course, I didn't, I don't think I realized at the time, you know, how involved this was going to be, but... What kind of response? You let it learn. Now, I got you together with John Carpenter, the psychiatric social worker, and you guys had several sessions and then we flew out to the site. You're reasonably convinced now that the second time around out there we did find the exact location? Yeah, the first time in, I, you know, it was like 43 years. And we're a helicopter. Yeah, I was in the air this time and the last time I was underground and so, you know, the landmarks were a little confusing. I was positive I was in the right place, but until we actually got underground John and I retraced the route in there that we had come in in the car. I wasn't absolutely sure. There was two ridgelines there and I wasn't really sure of which one it was. And I had the feeling that the first one that I had pointed out was the correct one, but once I went in on the ground on foot with John, I knew instantly that it wasn't that one, it was the other one, and I absolutely puzzled that that's where I was at. There's no question in my mind. And you will recall that you described the woman who sold you the pop on the way in. Right. And we found the older woman there who said that was exactly what she looked like. That's right. And I'll never forget that lady because I had it with he. I'm telling you. Backseat of that 40 Plymouth down those dirty old roads and stuff. And for mile after mile, of course, my dad was one of these kind of people. When he got in the car, it was point A to point B nonstop. I don't know why. He just never stopped to smell the roses or on the way. And so, you know, I was pretty sad at shape. And I remember that lady quite well. What kind of response have you had? You went public. I mean, John talked to a newsman. You both talked. He called me in the Springfield newspaper. People carried a very straight, very large article. And that got spread around by lots of people. So suddenly you're a celebrity, if you will. What kind of reaction from the people who knew you on campus where you worked, your friends? Very, very few negativists. There's the noisy negativists, you know. We have those. But in general... Generally supportive. 99% of the people were incredibly supportive. Only one professor at the university was of the negativist type who was vocal about it. Everybody else just 100% supported. The majority of these people are absolutely convinced, even without this story, that extraterrestrial life forms exist and that the people are flying around out there and moving between systems and stuff. And it was just an unbelievable amount of support. You didn't lose your job. Oh, no. Your boss didn't give you a hard time. Absolutely not. In fact, I think I can publicly say that my boss was extremely supportive because he is an avid ufologist himself. He is fascinated by the subject and you won't have any problem convincing him either. And my boss has a master's degree. He's not someone that's untrained observer that's given to hallucination. Most of the people who are the most supportive of me are people with very high educations, very solid educations, very solid, upstanding degree people given to hallucination. You attended a UFO conference with John Carpenter and he gave a paper, I guess, and introduced you. And you've got a response from that audience, too. Yeah, 100% supportive. I was really, quite relieved and made very, very welcome. Well, you've been interviewed by a number of other people, Linda Howe, working on a documentary and so forth, seems to have brought the story out. How much contact did you have with Kevin Randall? A very brief telephone call. I came home from work one day and there was a message on my answering machine and as you well know, I have a tendency to be hard to get a hold of sometimes. And he'd left his number and, of course, I had his address and yours and I had sent cards to both of you and something to the effect if you want to know what really happened after he called me. And he had called and I wasn't there and he had left his number, so I returned his call. Now, I talked to him very briefly, primarily because I didn't like the man's attitude. I don't feel comfortable with people who call other people liars and charlatans and phonies and say that they rigged their research to make it come out the way they want. And when someone starts telling me this kind of thing, then the first thing I want to do is I want to get away from him and this is exactly what he did. Now, I understand that this man claims that I talked to him for two hours and that he has a two hour tape of one contradiction after another of me and that's not quite true. Okay, there's been no other contact with him. No other contact. I won't give the man a time of day. And has any other investigator, any of the noisy negativists approached you during that? No, none at all. The only other investigator is you yourself and I'm Berliner and Bob Bigelow and John Carpenter. And you're quite familiar with our involvement. And you agree that on that first trip to the Plains it was you, I, Bob Bigelow, and a pilot in the helicopter? Yeah, Joe Channing, the pilot, was in the front seat on the left side. I was in the front seat on the right side. You were directly behind me? No. You were directly behind the pilot on the left side and Bob Bigelow was directly behind me on the passenger side. And then we met up with, eventually, with Don Berliner and John Carpenter. They spent the next three days together. They drove the jeeps and stuff to Dattel and were waiting for us at Dattel when we landed in the highway island down there. And as you recall, where did we refuel the helicopter? Springerdale, Arizona. It's not far at Arizona, that's the problem. No, it was just a matter of a few minutes, actually. 25 minutes, maybe, at the max west of where we were located. All right, I think we may pick this up another time, but I think that'll do us for now. We really appreciate the time and trouble and effort and all the rest of that and on the bigger and better things.