 Welcome to episode 12 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host Zaman Dunga Kumalo. We're now on day 21, rather late 29. There's so many days that have gone by in the national lockdown. And on tonight's episode, I'm joined by Eavalt Kellerman, who's the Chief Risk Officer at Apsa Home Loans. And we'll be asking private property. So if you've ever had any questions that you ever wanted to ask the bank about your home loan journey, this is the opportunity to do so. I know having bought quite a number of properties, the oldest questions I have for the bank, whether it's how they assess our home loan application, what really makes them give us that 100% bond, or even 110 or 120, do they even still give those out there? If you have any of those questions and more, this is the opportunity for you to ask those questions. Eavalt, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Thanks for having me. I think before we even get to some of the questions, I mean, we've already had people at home sending us their questions. And if you're at home and you have any, do drop them down below. Maybe let's rather start with the payment relief that I know that Apsa has for some of its clients. I mean, we're now finding ourselves in very unprecedented times. The COVID-19 crisis has wreaked havoc in so many people's lives. And a lot of home owners probably are going to struggle to make payments into their home loan because their salaries are either going to be cut or some of them are losing jobs. What are some of the payment relief or how does payment relief look like from Apsa's perspective? Yeah, thank you. So in Apsa, we believe that loan is a much longer term relationship. So we have to look at our customers through the entire cycle. I think if you listen carefully to the president, there's a lot of good customers that are facing unprecedented times and very difficult situations. When I speak to our customers, they are family businesses who have been operating for years, people with great financial habits who have now been affected. So we designed a solution in order to give those customers a break from paying their loans because we believe that in the long run, we can help them through this difficult time and remain in good standing in the process because we've got a long term relationship. And we would rather try to make it work then to start collecting aggressively on those accounts. And so if there are people at home who are perhaps Apsa home loan clients, how do they go about ensuring that they have that payment holiday that Apsa has installed for its customers? So Apsa has already started sending out messages to our customers. It is quite an easy option to opt in. I think what we tried to do was to make it as inclusive as possible. So there's no qualification criteria. As long as you've got an online account with Apsa and you're up to date, then you can opt in and ask for the payment relief to be applied. To date, we've helped more than 200,000 customers who've asked for this solution. So it is a massive scheme that we've implemented. And we've taken up from a lot of our good customers, from our long standing customers who might have been affected by this crisis. And with the three month payment break, that obviously gives you a lot of options to get your family through this time to potentially resume earning commission or to handle things like unexpected expenses. It's not always that your salary gets cut. It might be that you might need to help out a family member. And I think, I mean, I know some of our women are actually with Apsa and I received the SMS that was sent. And I actually found it quite interesting that in the event where you wanted to opt in or you chose to opt out, being able to do that just purely via SMS and not needing to sign any document and send it through, for me, I think was actually quite an easy process. And it's not even true to advertise for Apsa. But I think as somebody who's one of your clients actually found that to be quite an easy and seamless process for people who wanted to opt into it, especially right now, because people are not at their offices. You might have a home office at home, but the likelihood of you maybe having a printer or scanner sometimes are quite slim. So the opportunity to just opt in via SMS, I think was a good one on Apsa's part and making it as administratively simple as possible for people who might want to opt into that particular package. Now, maybe let's go a little bit then with the home loan process sort of in its entirety. I mean, I know I certainly have always had certain questions that I would have wanted a bank to answer when it comes to the home loan process. And perhaps the first one is what exactly makes a candidate so good that you grant them 100% home loan? I mean, so far, I think I've been fortunate all my home loans have been 100%. And it was only after speaking to other people that I realized that that's not the status quo. I think when I started off, I thought everybody gets 100% home loan, that's just the standard. But I mean, over the years, I've actually realized that's not actually the standard. And some people struggle, some people only get 60% or 70%. If you could take us through what about a candidate's application makes a bank, when into grant 100% home loan to them? Yes, of course. I think this is probably one of the most challenging parts of the online process is how exactly a bank looks at approval and what we consider. So I think let's start off with the basics. So there's three things we look at when you look around an application. The first one is easiest is can you afford it? So do you have enough month left at the end of your money so that you could still afford your repayment? Obviously, we'll have to take into account that you have to survive on what's left. So there's some level of living expenses. And if you already have other commitments, so if you've got a car loan or the credit card to pay off, it is important to take those into account. So affordability is the first part. And we know that we've had some nice rate reductions and maybe we could touch on that again later. But interest rates move and interest rates can go up and down. So if you cut it fine and you only have 50 grand left at the end of your payment, when the rate changes, we might actually put you in a difficult situation. So there's a lot that we think about in affordability, but that's the first category. The second category that we look at is how well you've managed your credit accounts in the past. So have you paid your loans on time? Have you paid yourself an account on time? There's also, I think, a big misconception with customers who've got no credit. So especially young first-time buyers, when they approach a bank for a loan, it is difficult. We have to make some assumptions because if you haven't got any credit before, we don't know whether you handle your credit responsibly, yes or no. And I think that the banks have grown a lot and they've recognized that that is a shortcoming. So in apps as an example, we've designed solutions for young professionals as an example. But essentially we are looking for some history to see, you know, do you know how to handle your credit agreements, yes or no. And if you've handled them well, this is the most important part. If you paid them on time and if you're not overintated, then it gets a lot easier to grant more credit to you and give you a higher percentage loan. In a lot of cases, we actually pay for costs as well. So we offer more than 100% lending. I've actually seen a couple of that recently, yeah. That's correct, yeah. And especially for young professionals, because we know that, you know, if you're an article clock at the moment, it's very likely that in years to come, you'll earn a lot more money and you'll become a good client of the bank. And you might need a bit more of a push just to get on to the property ladder. The third part that we look at, so we've covered affordability and you created history. The third part, which is also just as important, is the property that you're buying. If you buy a two bedroom flat in Santon, that's obviously a property that could easily sell, it provides good security. So the day that you want to leave, it's quite easy to get out. And if you do get in trouble or you can't afford it, it's easy to sell that property. But if you buy a vacant stand in the middle of nowhere, it is often very difficult to get rid of that property. So the quality of the property as security. And it doesn't mean that, you know, it's not a good property. It is a ability for us to sell that or for you to sell that property that we look at. And the more secure and transactable that property is, the easier it gets for the bank to finance it. And the combination of those three parts tells us to what degree we can give you 100% or even more than 100% loan. And we've actually got a question on vacant stands or land that we'll deal with a bit later on. If you're watching us at home, you are tuned into the private property podcast with myself, Zaman Dunga Kumanda. And tonight I'm joined by Evel Kiliman, who's the Chief Risk Officer at Apsa Home Loans. And we're answering some of your burning questions around home loans and your home loan journey. So if you've ever wanted to ask a bank about your home loan or how they consider their home loan, then this is your opportunity to do so. Now, Eval to know, one of the things that you actually touched on was around the interest rates, right? And not even the interest rate reduction they've received, but rather the interest rate that the bank is going to give you when you're applying for your particular home loan. I'd like us to spend a little bit of time in that one. I mean, I know no two people would necessarily would automatically get the same home loan and interest rate. So just a little bit about how even the interest rate that you extend to different customers and how that's how you kind of go about determining that interest rate. And linked to that, I think I also want to probably find out whether at Apsa, I mean, I've heard, for example, certain instances where with some banks that might give you a fixed rate for a certain period of time in your home loan, it's obviously very rarely if ever for the full 20-year period because interest rates go up and down. But let's say it's for a two-year period or a three-year period, it's a fixed rate. And then with a lot of us, of course, getting that interest rate that's linked to prime, what goes into determining which client you would have a fixed interest rate with? Is that something a client should ask about? I mean, I found out about that much later on in terms of even being able to have that as an option that you can ask from the bank. Okay, let's start with the first part. And I think this is hopefully some good advice for prospective property buyers. And the first part is that you can actually negotiate your rate with your bank. But before I get to how you can do that, I think let's just quickly cover the role of a bank. So a bank takes a deposit as money, and then we lend that money out to people buying houses, buying cars, or taking short-term loans. So it's not necessarily our money, and it also costs us money to get that in. So depending on how much it costs us to deposit that money with a bank, and because we have to pay the depositors their money, we can then take that money and lend out. The difference between that two is what we, is the profit that we make. So it's not our money necessarily, we lend out our depositors money. But in that money that we lend out, we have to take into account things like the cost to administer the loan, the cost of valing the property, managing the loan, providing the solution, running our branch, need to work, etc. And then also, there are some customers and good customers who eventually lose their jobs or get into difficult financial situations. So often we lose money on loans that we extend. And out of that profit that we make, we have to pay for that, that sort of poor credit, that credit cost for bad loans. So a way to get the bank to give you a better loan is to prove that you are a better customer and we're less likely to lose money on you. So how do you do that? The first part is, on the three things that I've mentioned, if you qualify in terms of affordability, in terms of your credit history, and if the property is good security, it gets a lot easier to give you a better right. But if you have a relationship with a bank, so if you have your check account with AppSales, an example, then we know you're better. And if we know you're better, we also know that you are less likely to get into trouble. And we can give you more of a benefit for that. So depending on how much of a relationship you have with the bank, it makes a difference. If you can pay deposit, we can immediately give you a better right if you're willing to move over some of your accounts app. So we can also look at giving you a better right. So there's a couple of different ways and things that you could do to help reduce the risk to the bank. And if you reduce the risk, we obviously don't have to cover those costs. So then we can pass on that right back to you as a customer. So that's the answer to the first part of the question. And I think with a 20-year loan, it is really important that you try to get the best right. And often if you use our partner's mortgage originators, they can also help you put together an application to speak to the bank. If you look at the right thing after you've gotten your loan, you can decide to apply a fixed rate to that agreement. So if you currently pay the prime interest rate, you can find the bank and also if you want to fix your rate. So what it means is you will then put an agreement on top of your loan to say that you currently pay prime, but for the next one, two, three or four years, you want to pay a fixed rate. It does cost you a bit more, so you wouldn't pay prime anymore. You might pay prime plus 20 basis points or 0.2%. And it will be fixed for a certain amount of time. During that time, if the interest rate goes up, you wouldn't pay anymore. If the interest rate goes down, you wouldn't get the benefit of that either. The reason why fixed rate cost money is because somebody has to take the risk on that. So somebody has to sell you that agreement. And the benefit thereof is that it gives you certainty. So it shouldn't be used as a way to bet on the market to say, I think rates are going up. That's why I want to fix my loan. Especially for first time buyers and customers who are very tight with their finances at the moment, fixed rate can give you a lot of certainty and make sure that if the rate goes up, you don't lose out or you don't get into a situation where you can't afford it. But the rates in South Africa have been quite stable. So unfortunately, fixed rates are not very popular. And I think less than 1% of immigrants in South Africa currently have fixed rates. I'm affected on them. Okay. So we've got some questions coming in from people who I met did mention earlier that there was one on land. And you partially answered it, but I actually wanted to ask you. And the question was, why do the banks, or rather why the banks don't like financing land purchases? So vacant stands, if I go back to the qualification criteria of the property, a person buying a vacant stand is somebody who has an idea for the house or has a dream for the house. And they've potentially thought about how to build it and how to plan for it. It is a bit more expensive to buy, to build a house exactly like you want it to potentially to buy an existing property. And the demand for vacant stands are not that high. So if somebody buys a vacant stand, and if he wants to get rid of it, there's a lot less potential buyers that buys a vacant stand. If you look at a lot of customers along the coast, where there was lots of vacant stands, they bought those things up. At the moment, it's very, very difficult to sell a property there, or sell a vacant stand, because it might be much cheaper to buy an existing property that somebody has already bought. So the demand on vacant stands is for a very specific customer. And that's why we ask for a much larger deposit. And that deposit helps to cover some of those losses and also helps a customer to sell that property easier if he or she doesn't want to continue with the building and wants to get out of the deal. More questions are coming in. If you're tuning in at home and you have any questions from Evald, who is the Chief Risk Officer at Absa Home Loans, do send them through. We've got a question here from Lina Davis, who asks, what if the property is bought by a company or a business? How do you evaluate? So that's a good question. I think it used to be very popular to buy properties in the name of companies or trusts or state-planning reasons. But essentially, it is a very similar process. So the company within acts as a person buying the property, I think there's a bit of a challenge. And the challenge is in that when an individual buys a property, he or she pays transfer duty on the property, when a company buys a property, they could be charged that, which is slightly more expensive. But essentially, when you put the property in a company's name, it is just a different owner to the property. We still look at the underlying person. So we look at the director of the company as an example. And the director of the company's credit is to be would be used. The affordability of that person would be used. We would ask for full surety, and we would still look at the property the same way. So it's still very much a home loan. It is just a different entity that you put in the model. And there's some cost implications to that. At which point would you no longer look at the director's credit history or finances, where you, for example, only exclusively look at the company's credit history or their financials? Because I know oftentimes, certainly as property investors, when you're starting off, you could just register a PTY and you'd use yourself as surety when you're buying those first couple of properties. But certainly after a few years, the PTY itself essentially almost also has a financial identity and probably has credit and can show that this is the amount of money that they make. So if a company, suppose it's been around for a couple of years, do you at some point stop using the director or the directors as a way to assess whether the company will be able to pay for that particular home loan? I think it's a good question. So our business, and especially when you get to property investment, and I know that there's a lot of investors currently on private property looking for a good deal. So in our home loans business, traditionally the bank looks at financing residential property and we entertain investors as well. We like investors in the way that they look at property. So we are very keen on financing investors. But our home loans business primarily looks at residential properties. So if you approach our home loan bank for this, we would typically ask surety, regardless of whether it's an interest or not, in order to build a residential portfolio. I think in a case where the company starts becoming strong enough in order to pay for these loans, it turns into a different type of funding and that different type of funding would then turn into business funding. But in our home loan bank, you get a couple of benefits. You typically go up to 100% loan to value. So we don't ask for it, we can go as high as that and then don't ask for a deposit. And we also charge relatively cheap interest rates. So if you pay close to prime, you must remember that that is a very cheap interest rate compared to what you pay in a vehicle or in a credit card. And business loans are also more expensive. So if you think about a business person, the risks are higher, the chances of the business failing is more than the individual failing. And you would typically be required to add a bigger deposit and pay higher rate. That's why it's not as popular to finance properties in that way and rather sign surety for it and finance it with the investor signing personal surety for it. So it is possible to do it both ways, but it is a lot cheaper and a lot more effective if you do it through our main bank typically. And somebody actually wants to almost know, I'll say the odds. So the question is, so what are the chances of getting 100% bond for a non-trading company that's been unirregistered with two or more directors using their salaries, a surety and with good credit scores and affordability? So we actually prefer non-trading entities and it doesn't matter when that company was registered because it would be a container. So if you and I started a business and we wanted to buy properties to let out and we registered a new company, the company wouldn't make as much difference. It's just a legal way to structure the deal. But if they look at our salaries and they look at us and our credit histories individually, we obviously have a history with the bank. We're banked with Apsai, they've got our accounts, so they know how we conduct our finances. They can do an assessment on our affordability based on what we earn and what we spend. So that's quite easy to determine. So the company becomes less important because a company is not responsible to pay the loan or legally it is, but we ask that the person who owns the company is a person taking responsibility for it through the surety. So typically these transactions works with non-trading entities. If you have a business, a growing concern business that operates and that wants to buy a property, the deal gets a little bit more difficult because if you, for example, have a restaurant buying a house to operate in, then you also have to think about what is the risk of the restaurant not working out. So the non-trading entities are typically more difficult to learn to and could get charged by interest rates. But non-trading entities are quite easy to solve for. So of course right now we've got different young, particularly young professionals who are probably looking into going into the property market. They've seen the back-to-back interest rate cut and some of them are wondering whether to go into property or perhaps do something different with their funds. We've got a question coming in here from Boris who asks, his question is, what would you advise one with debt and no deposit but is looking to buy a home in the next six months given the interest rate cuts? So I mean I can't give specific advice without properly doing an assessment on the person's profile. But if I think about property as an investment in general, if you consider our financial markets react and we've seen this with the last three, so when the lockdown started as an example, the stock market really suffered. But we don't necessarily think or we know, let me be very careful with my words, the property market is a lot more resilient because there's a certain level of demand, you use your property to live in and even if you can't afford it, we don't have a massive oversupply of properties in South Africa. We have a lot of people who are looking for shelter depending on what they can afford. But the property as an asset loss as in the past provided a fairly stable and safe set of returns. So I think it makes sense to still invest in property and buy property. I think it is in a large degree a stepping stone or access to greater wealth. A lot of people have made really good money investing in property. So I don't think that one should stay away from property as an asset loss. I think it's just really important to think about what your individual needs are. If you are looking for a place for your family and to stay and to build a life, I think it is a great opportunity to buy. But if you are a young student who wants to potentially look at buying but don't know how your situation might change in the next year or two, so if you're an article blog and you expect to start earning more money once you've qualified in the next year or two, then maybe it's a better idea to rent until you can afford the property that you really want instead of buying one now and having to sell it again in the next year's time because you meet somebody or you want to move in together or you want to buy a bigger place. So I think property itself is a good investment but it's a lot to do with your personal circumstances where it's a good idea to buy and which property to buy. That's so true, Evert. When I even reflect on my own home ownership journey when I started off, I was a young professional, I still am, and I did have debt at the time. I bought two properties and I think the reality of not having financial responsibilities like taking care, for example, of a child or any other extra financial responsibilities helped because then I was able to finance two home loans from the get go and there's a part of me that understood what went into home ownership and the other additional costs that would come with it. So I think it's probably very important to have a sit down and assess off the debt that you have. Will you still be able to service the debt while you have a new home loan and the costs associated with home ownership because it's not just going to be paying for that boundary payment every month but if you, for example, buy into a sectional title then you're also going to be paying for levies, maybe insurance or other running costs of a property. So it really is important to run the numbers and be clear about whether you're going to have additional funds left over after servicing the property and all the costs associated with earning that particular property. And we've got another question here. Excuse me, coming in from Max who asks, is it a good thing to pay a high deposit when purchasing a home? So as I mentioned before, I think buying a deposit could reduce the risk for the bank and that could result in a lower interest rate. And if you've got a lower interest rate, paying off potentially 20-year loan could be very valuable. I think the nice thing in South Africa though is that when you pay in money after your bond is registered, so if you take a 100% loan anyway and you pay off, you pay your deposit in afterwards, then the flexible bond functionality that the banks have still allows you to draw that money in case of an emergency. But you don't pay interest on that money. So it can be done two ways. I think the first one is to pay the deposit upfront when you're negotiating for a better rate. Or if you've got additional funds or if you get a bonus a year after, it is advisable to pay in a little bit extra. But I think a deposit is always a great mechanism to negotiate with the bank in order to pay a better rate. And we've got another question here from Douglas on Gambula who asks regarding getting a home loan financed with non-South Africans but looking for finance for property in South Africa. So I think the question is essentially around extending home loans to non-South Africans and how that process works. Because some non-South Africans typically say that the banks require a higher deposit from them when they're buying a property. So if you could just help us with that one? Of course, yeah. So non-South Africans, you get two categories. The one is a complete non-resonance. So somebody who comes from a different country and does not have either permanent residence or citizenship in South Africa, our local regulations says that we can't lend more money than what we get in. So those are regulated bio-exchange control regulations to say that we can lend off of the property's price. But the customer has to bring off of that price in. So in millionaire property, we can only lend 500,000 and they have to bring in another 500,000 from wherever they come from. For temporary residence and especially permanent residence, the restrictions get a little bit lighter. So there we can lend more. For a temporary residence, by the time he or she has to leave the country, we have to be back at 50-50. But if somebody is a permanent resident here and has permanent residency, that means that that person can stay in the country, work here, that gets a lot easier. So then we don't have any legal restrictions or regulatory restrictions. Then we go back to looking at affordability, credit history and property security. And we are very keen to lend to foreigners buying property in South Africa. I think that investment in South Africa of any form helps our economy. And I mean who in the world wouldn't want to invest in a beautiful country such as South Africa. So I think it's something that we as a bank are very keen to support. Yeah, we've got another question and slightly more technical, but I think we can probably answer it relatively broadly without needing some of the specifics. And this one comes from Bong Sibakwene who asks, I have a property I bought in 2006 for 450,000 and I'm almost finished paying and only left with 40,000 rand. So well done Bongs on pushing on that home loan. And he says I'm looking to buy a new property for the same amount. What's the best way to do this? Do I get a new bond and close the first one? My bond was 1% below prime. So I think that's a great question. The nice thing again about having about having a home loan in South Africa is you've got the option to take a re-advance on your loan or a further bond on your exclusive property. The rates at the moment, so in 2006 when that property was bought, the rates were easier to get at below prime. At the moment, the rates are actually more expensive than a prime. So your average rate is prime plus instead of prime minus. So in that case, it would actually be a little bit cheaper to lend as much money on the existing property as possible and as little as possible on the new property. And you can have a mix of the two. What you can also do is keep the property and finance the new property completely as a new bond at a 100% loan. But then you would buy a higher rate for that property. So it is probably better to use your balance sheet in order to lend money to raise money on the first property and then put a deposit down as big as deposit as possible in order to get a good right on the second property as well. But if you look at that customer, that customer has already built a balance sheet, shown a good history of repayment. So that is exactly the type of customer which we want to treat well and want to give a good deal. So please send them my number after the interview. Yeah, and I think, I mean, if anything, it probably brings me to my next question, Evald, around the bank's appetite to extend credit. You know, they're different murmurs right now certainly within the property space about whether or not banks are going to be extending credit home loans to people given the financial uncertainty that we find ourselves in. How do you think us is going to be assessing some of these home loan applications that are going to be coming in particularly during this period? I mean, already many of us are predicting that we're going to be staying in a buyers market. Probably, I mean, one of our guests was saying chances are up to the next five years, obviously the first sort of two, three years being very ripe ground for buyers who want to buy right now. And some people are saying banks actually do have the funds to be extending to people who want to be getting home loans. So there's a high appetite. So if you could just help us understand, I'll say after this appetite to extend home loans particularly during, I'll say a time of crisis and how you'll be going about assessing those applications because let's say people's salaries are affected and maybe they still have their jobs but they now earn, of course, maybe slightly less than what they used to perhaps their credit score might take a minor dent because there were some, you know, creditors that they weren't able to service on time. But in six months time, then they're now relatively back to normal. How would you go about assessing their application when they want to get a home loan? I think you've touched on a couple of important points there. So we know that times have changed. It doesn't mean that the basics of lending has necessarily changed. I think out of a bank's perspective, our business is to lend money. So if we don't lend money and extend their home loans, that is not good for us. So we will look for opportunities to lend money and to try and do that as safely as possible in an affordable manner because that makes a lot of sense for us. So we would continue lending. I think that if you think about the market commentary, it is possible that for the next five years since the property market could be a bit depressed. But it's not a foregone conclusion yet. We don't know exactly how this would play out. If you look at markets around the world, in China, as an example, house prices have gone up after lockdown because of the paint up demand. I don't think that our property market is in such a difficult state that the market will collapse or that we in grave danger. I actually think we've got a really well balanced market. It's not that strong, but it's definitely not weak either. So I think that we might actually see a quicker recovery. And I think it's important as a bank to try and keep an open mind on that. Try and look for business that still works. And I think when we assist customers now, it's important to look at, can this person, does this person, is his or her income still safe? Is it sustainable to think that they would keep earning what they're earning at the moment? And if they do, then we would try our best possible to try and book that business and extend as many lines as possible. But it's important for the market, but also important for us as a business, for our survival in order to extend as many lines as possible. And before I let you go, one last question for me to help our viewers at home. What do you think is perhaps the one question or some of the questions that as prospective home loan or prospective customers, what are the questions that we should be asking our bank during our home loan application process or when we're having a conversation with our bank around home loans? So I think it's really important to understand exactly, you know, what the agreement is and how you get into the agreement. You know, there's a lot of fine print and typically when you go to the attorneys and they present you with a very thick pack of documents, which is quite intimidating. It is very important that you understand some of the basics of our loan works, especially some of our new customers don't quite grasp the full extent of what responsibilities are or what are the additional costs, like you mentioned earlier. So it's important that you understand that this is a commercial transaction between a customer and a bank and that there's obligations on both sides. So if you do get into trouble, it is the relationship does get a little bit more difficult. That's why we offer things like payment relief. But I think for the bulk of customers, understanding the agreement, understanding the cost of credit is really important. And if we go back to the right discussion, you know, the right discussion could really make a difference in, you know, are you manage your loan? Whether it's a fixed rate, whether or not, whether you can move your account to apps and potentially benefit from a better rate. If you could use a deposit to bring your right down. There is a types of discussions that we welcome. And what we would like to have with customers, you know, we can give advice on how you handle your credit is steady. So I think the question would be, you know, how can I make this better for myself? And what is a what is the best option that the bank can give me? And how can I how can I get to that? Thank you so much, I think there are so insightful for many of us who of course interact with banks and particularly with apps in helping us understand, you know, what are some of the questions we should be asking our financial institutions, but also what is out there? I think oftentimes the home loan journey is so intimidating. Like you said, by the time you're getting to the lawyers to sign your papers, you're already intimidated and overwhelmed. It's almost like you're signing away your life because just stacks and stacks of paper. And I know, I mean, every time I do it, there's still a part of me that's slightly intimidated. But you learn as you do it. I think the more you do it, the more you learn. And if anything, I think this is going to help people understand from the other perspective, how banks look at us as customers, but also how they can be empowered during their home loan journey and their home application journey. So thank you for joining us this evening, Evald. And there was Evald Kiliman, who's the Chief Risk Officer rather. I'm clearly running out of my English bundles, the Chief Risk Officer at AFSA Home Loans. And we're talking about, you know, the different questions that you may have for a financial institution that will help you on your home ownership journey. Thank you very much for joining us on this week's episode of the Private Property Podcast. I've been your host, Zaman Donga Kumalo. We'll be back again next week with more interesting topics that are going to help us navigate home ownership, home buying, and even empower us as renters to move from renting to buying. And of course, if you have any rental sales or buying needs, then you can always go to www.privateproperty.co.z. Until next week, thank you for joining.