 You know what I would like to do first is in a way pay tribute to our grandmothers and our mothers which have gone a long way to where we are now which is way too far away from where we want us to be, our daughters and granddaughters to be. So we cannot turn our back to what has been done. That was our President Christine Lagarde. On the occasion of International Women's Day, she joined Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iwela, Director-General of the World Trade Organization in Geneva, Switzerland, to talk about women in the economy and to share their own experiences as female leaders. You're listening to the ECB podcast, bringing you insights into the world of economics and central banking. My name is Katie Ranger. This is Eleni Gyokos, who moderated the conversation. A warm welcome to all of you. I'm Eleni Gyokos. I'm an anchor and correspondent at CNN. Delighted to be here at the World Trade Organization in Geneva. As we celebrate International Women's Day, it is not lost on us just how much work has been done, how much work still needs to be done. And we meet at a very distressing time globally. There's trouble brewing in so many places. We just have to look. And when it comes to issues with the economy, with climate, with anything that has to do with the macroeconomic environment, women are disproportionately impacted. And we must not become complacent. We must continue to maintain, to gain and propel women in the workplace, in institutions, and ensure that there is education for the girl child that is absolutely vital. Two women that will continue to fight these battles for us at the very top are Dr. Ngozi O'Conjoella, the director general of the World Trade Organization, Madame Christine Lagarde, the president of the European Central Bank. They join me now. I'm delighted to have both of you with us. Thank you so much. Dr. Ngozi, I want to start with you. I was really just ruminating over how far we've come and there's spots of real hope. And then you look at numbers that have changed dramatically specifically since the pandemic. If you had to draw up a balance sheet right now of where we are with equality and women's growth, what would you say? What is your view? Well, Lenny, thank you and thank you for joining us. It's wonderful to have Christine Lagarde with us here today. I would say that, look, although we've made some progress, the recent crisis that we've experienced from the pandemic to the war in Ukraine with the attendant energy, high energy and food prices with the existential threat of climate change, I think we've been set back. And actually some of the numbers bear this out. I think in 2020, before the pandemic really deepened, the World Economic Forum had estimated the amount of time it would take to get gender equality or gender parity to be 100 years. After given all these crises, the latest estimate is 132. So we've been set back 32 years already, 100 years is so difficult to imagine that my granddaughter's granddaughter would be there and we may still not have gender equality, but now it's 132 years. The World Bank has estimated that 70 million people have fallen into absolute poverty because of this. And the Oxfam is saying that 47 million people in poverty are women and girls. So when you look at all of this in terms of impact, I feel we've been set back and it's going to take us another decade or more to even catch up to where we were before. Or more. And Madame Lagarde, here's the reality. Gender equality is fragile. It is fragile and it can be derailed. Can we catch up on those 30 years that we've regressed? You know what I would like to do first is in a way pay tribute to our grandmothers and our mothers, which have gone a long way to where we are now, which is way too far away from where we want us to be, our daughters and granddaughters to be. So we cannot turn our back to what has been done. My mother, for instance, could not open a bank account without my father's authorization. That's just a minimum. And when you look at the level of education in many economies, girls had zero access, limited access. There is progress, not where we want it to be. And girls are still discriminated compared with men or boys. For the advanced economies, I'll tell you how I describe it. I think women, particularly since the COVID hit, have been multitasking with limited assistance. They've been overworked and underpaid. They've been pretty strong entrepreneurial, but very poorly financed. So you can see that there is a series of gaps that need to be addressed and need to be redressed. So for me, it boils down to four Ls that I keep repeating myself. So for those of you who have heard me mention the four Ls, bear with me, but repetition is part of the game. Law, there are still many countries that some of you represent here that is not equal, where we still have discrimination against women. So that's the first thing that needs to be fixed. Second, learning. Girls have to be educated, need to be given access to education, and special efforts need to be made in that respect. That's not the case everywhere in the world, far from it. Third, labor. Access to the job market and equal pay for the same job. Even in the most advanced economies, if you take the Nordic countries out, because they are probably best in class, but if you take those countries out, the gap between a man and a woman is still anywhere between 20 and 14 percent for the same job. So that needs to be addressed as well. And the final point, which I made in my remarks, is leadership. We still have too few women in leadership positions, and they can do the job. They can do it better sometimes. Lada, you don't actually need to whisper that. You got me thinking, because you're talking about the generational gap. My mother only went to school until primary. She couldn't go to high school. My grandmother completely in the rural village. I want all of you to take a moment and think about your generational changes, where you are today versus your mother and grandmother. And it's truly illuminating to think that. But you said something in your remarks, which I wanted to ask about anyway. Two women in a 26 ECB governing body. Should I ask what your experience is like or what the men's experience is like? What happens if you change that figure? What would happen? I'm not suggesting that we switch the other way around with 26 women and two men. I know this was the position of RBG at the Supreme Court when she was asked, how do we redress the situation? And what do you regard as equality? And she said nine women at the Supreme Court to make up for the past. So this is not my suggestion. And I have said once, the picture would look different if Lehman Brothers had been Lehman's sisters. Okay? I still believe in that big way. Dr. Ngozi, I mean, it's fascinating. You've done a lot of firsts in terms of ministerial positions, both of you. And of course, heading up these very traditional institutions. And it's been incredible to see you at the helm. What have you had to do to change the structure, the ethos, the way that women are firstly viewed within the organization institution, and also when it comes to trade policies? Has it been top of the agenda priority? Yes, Eleni, absolutely. And it's still a work in progress. So two years here, it's a work in progress. I think I pay tribute to my predecessors. But one of the things I discovered when I came is internally, we didn't have agenda policy. There was none. I asked about it, and they said there had been one in the making for seven years. But it had never been made. So the first thing I try to focus on internally is how can we have an organization of this size and importance we don't have within our organization the secretariat agenda policy. So we worked on it really fast. We set a deadline by which we must have it. And I think everybody knows I'm very results focused. I have to have a deadline. I have to push my results. We got it. Before we went for Christmas, we got agenda policy. So we have a agenda framework now. And we have the elements of how to redress some of the issues concerning women within. And beyond that, looking more at diversity and equity. So beyond different gender, there are other aspects of diversity. So that's one. Second, I want to say that when I came, I also thought just what Christine said, we need to have, look at the balance of senior management to begin with. All through the organization, but let me at least begin where I can. And I'm very proud that for the first time in the senior management team of the WTO, we were able to get four fantastic deputies of which 50% are fantastic women. And they're sitting here in the audience. It was a competition. They didn't walk into the job because they were women. All I did was insist that any shortlist must have at least one woman on it. I didn't say which woman. And when we did a fair competition, the two women were at the top. And they're sitting right here. We have Annabel Gonzalez and Angela Ellis. I want to do a shout out for the men too, because they too did their competition. So I'm not trying to say. And one of the men is, DDJ Zhang is representing us in Doha. But DDJ Pao Gam is here, who was also, he worked with Christine, by the way. He has two bosses on the podium. So, sorry, just one last point. So we did that. So we have 50%. But we just looked at some numbers. Anusha gave me, Anusha is the head of our gender unit over there. She gave me some numbers. Among our directors, we have, this is also part of senior management. We have 20, 20. It was a 22% female when I arrived. We are now at 43%. So we've doubled that. And we've doubled it through competition. I want to repeat this. All I said was there must be women on the shortlist. And I'm going to try to use that to drive the way we do business. Can I just comment on, because I think Ngozi is making such an important point, it goes down to the drilling and the knots and bolts of how things are done. Because quite often you say, we need equality, 50%, 50%. But then you start drilling into the numbers and you disaggregate and you see by segments and you understand better the nature of discrimination. When I was finance minister, I was coming to that. I think yes and no. Deliberate in the sense that it requires a bit of an effort. You know, when I was finance minister in France, I had various big partly state-owned companies. And I called all the CEOs of those companies once a year to ask them how the business was doing, how the strategy was and blah, blah, blah. And I always said, what about your boat composition? What is it like? Men, invariably it was predominantly men in many occasions, only men. And I said, how can that be? I said, oh, I can't find women. I can't. I'm really trying hard. And I said, well, you know what? Why don't you try another year? And maybe next year you will have found some women. They came back the year later, still hadn't found any women. But in the meantime, I had prepared my own list. So I pulled out my list with about 20 names of women who were competent, qualified, if given a chance, would say yes and so on and so forth. And that changed the picture. It was not in and of itself sufficient. But you have to really go into the details. And what Ngozi said, which is I want at least one woman in the shortlist. That is the trick. Because if a woman is given a chance, she will thrive. Because she has worked much harder than many others to get to where she is. And it's speaking about getting a deliberate pipeline of leaders of women within organizations and institutions, which seemed to be one of the most important steps in the value chain in getting women to the top, to the top of their game. Yeah, I really want to agree with Christine in that. It takes time. And you have to do it in a way that, OK, it doesn't make men feel like you're doing things without merit or that they are being left behind. But invariably, there are just some innate built-in. I don't know whether they are structural. Sometimes I say they are structural. Sometimes systemic biases that are there. We don't even recognize they're there. And so in order to work against those, you have to insist. And you also have to have that pipeline. And sometimes it means looking at the policies of an organization. And we are beginning to do that here, too. Sometimes policies look very innocuous, like they're right. But if the policies keep giving you the same answer, the same time, which is not delivering the change you want, then it means you need to look at them. And query is at least the right policy. So systems, policies, institutional approach, if you want to change things. So it's not that when Ngozi Okonjiwala leaves, then things go back to where they were. That's not what I'm looking for. I want systemic and structural change so that things can continue. And it can be fair for both men and women. That is what we are looking for in the organization. Is everyone on board with that ethos and philosophy? Any friction we need to know about? Well, let me say that we have some ways to go. The feedback I get from some of the women is that not everybody is on board. Let's just be frank about it. It's not because people are bad or men are bad. No, we have wonderful, productive, and fantastic male colleagues. So sometimes in built-in biases can just be there and you don't even know. So we have to really work hard. It will take time. It's two years. We are making some differences, but it will take us time. For women of color, we are talking about women. I just want to give a shout out for women of color in the world because everything you find that is difficult, it's doubly difficult for them. So that's another thing we need to work against. People don't... I can even tell you, if you're a woman of color and Christine, we did this book of which is a star, when you walk in a room, you can just see the people judging you. Especially if you're dressed the way I'm dressed. The first thing is they don't think you have anything intelligent to say. You're right. And they don't... They immediately, innately feel a woman of color has less to say, is less intelligent. And if she's dressed like an African, oh my God, she doesn't look like us. But this is me. It's who I am and I love it. We love it. You know, when you were running for DG, the whole of Africa, we were all behind you and one of the things that I was talking with all my friends is we could not wait for you to walk in the halls of the WTO with your incredible clothes and shaking things up. I just want to end up by saying, look, don't let it bother you, I've never had. I love it. I've never had them underestimate you. Yes. It's good to be underestimated because then you just take them by surprise. So we want to know what is in the book that Madame Lagarde was saying. Yes, the book on Christine is a star. I'm not advertising for you to go and buy it, but it's good, right? For women and leadership, real life, real lessons. And interviewing so many incredible women, you know, what is the message when you have to engage in these topics, Madame Lagarde? Because I think that women, the new generation of leaders, are looking to both of you for advice on how to deal with things, how to go up against some of the tasks that often feel Sisyphean. Do exactly what Ngozi said. Be yourself, dress the way you feel comfortable, happy and proud of, and just be in the room. I think that, you know, I've seen Ngozi in so many situations, and it's not just because of her history and the reputation. There is a way of taking control of a room that you can all have. It's an issue of confidence. For those of you who are interested, by the way, there is a book written by Kathy Kay and Claire Shipman called The Confidence Code, which really identifies very clearly where we are short on confidence and why we are short on confidence. I am still short on confidence, I tell you. And I remember discussing that with Angela Merkel and she also told me she was short on confidence, which is why we generally super prepared a file, a meeting, we are briefed to the extreme, we know inside out all the details and the numbers and all that, and we spent the whole night before the meeting that we have the following day working and studying. We do that much more so than colleagues. We do. Look at yourself, think about it. And that's to make up for this confidence shortfall that we have, that many of us have, maybe you don't. It comes with age, but it's there. And I think that if you identify the issue, if you appreciate that you have to work on it, it helps going forward. Now the second thing that I would say and that I learned from the coach on the national team that I was on when I was 17, is when the going gets tough, greet your teeth and smile. Now try to do the same thing. Greet your teeth and smile at the same time, good luck. But what I mean, what she meant by that and what I mean by that when I say that to particularly young women is it will be difficult. There will be obstacles. You have to face them. You have to just get over it and keep going, keep going. Some people say, don't give up. I say, greet your teeth, smile, get on with it, just go. Because we have that strength. Each and every one of us in this room, men and women alike. And we just have to draw on that to overcome the difficulties that will come our way. No question about it. I want to do a shout out, as Ngozi did, for all women and women of colors in particular. There is one avenue of training and education where there are so few women that they are given an avenue to join institutions. And that is economics. Try to find women who have degrees and high level education in macroeconomics, in monetary related economics, very, very few. When they are there, I tell you, they are chased, poached, raided. So you have to pick your battle. You have to choose your field. And then you can excel. That's what I would say. Dr. Ngozi, I want to weigh in a little deeper into the issue of what women of color experience. And I think this is absolutely vital. And it's absolutely striking. When I travel across the African continent and I meet the most incredible women that are bearing the burden of running a home are probably the trader in the family. They're involved in informal trading. They are planting so that they can eat. And yet they're excluded from the economic realities. If you then propel this person to get a proper education and then eventually get into the workspace, then they also deal with more issues. How are you thinking about tackling this through policy or through mindset change? Or what is that change that needs to occur? Well, I think it's through both policy and mindset. And through those who are in positions of power, actually taking steps to try to change things. First of all, I believe in evidence base. So the first thing I say to people is there are so many studies. We don't have to prove anything again. And I want to repeat that because studies have undoubtedly shown that empowering women is smart economics, is smart for the family, it is smart for the community, for the country. And women plow so much of their resources back into their family and their community. They educate their children better, faster, so that this is good for the community. So the first is evidence base. So I tend to try to quote what there is to show people that we are not just saying it. It's not a good thing to say, it's actual fact. Two is when you're in a policymaking position for goodness sakes, try to do something with the position you're in. And when I was finance minister, you know, we keep saying we have to do this, we have to do that. And then it struck me, well, you're finance minister. You know, you have the budget, you can convince the president that we should do more for women using this instrument. So you have to act at a policy level. So what were the things that we tried to do, for example? We started a program called G-Win, Growing Women and Girls, trying to invest more in women. And an example of this was saying to my colleagues in the cabinet, if you can produce additional results for women, you will get additional budget increment. So we set aside a small part in the budget. So for instance, Aki Adeshinu, who is now the president of AFDB, got additional budget because he was doing the e-wallet, you know, trying to get women access to pesticides and fertiliser faster. And he was able to include two million more women on this e-wallet. We gave him additional budget for the health sector, when they did more results, we gave them budget. So we used the budget as an instrument. I remember the president announcing this when he was presenting the budget in parliament. And of course then, you know, there was a bit of an opera from the men, but in the end it prevailed. And this produced results at a macro level. So I believe in using your policy instruments to do that. Supporting women entrepreneurs through the U-Win program, we also try to do that. And then on a micro level, I also believe in, I by the way, I believe that if you change the life of one person through your action, that is powerful. Don't think that it always has to be at a global level or at a big level. Even one person whose life you can change by mentoring, by assisting, so you also try at a micro level to do what you can to change the lives of other people and I've tried to do that. And you've done a lot of that and we appreciate the work that you're doing on the ground. One thing that strikes me is as you're speaking and you're saying you were finance minister and you know, you decided what do I do? I've got the tools and the policy at my disposal. But do you need women in these roles to make these big decisions on this? Or men going to be making these decisions as well? Because you went through the numbers, right? It's of the percentage of men or women in multinational institutions. Mostly men. Too many, yeah. Do we, I mean, we need the women in these roles? Or else these decisions won't happen? These efforts won't happen on the ground? You know, I don't think that it is deliberate on the part of men to ignore the women, but it's just, sometimes it doesn't cross their desk, it doesn't cross their mind. And I remember when I was finance minister too, there was a clear issue of Crédit à la Consommation, so consumers' credit, which invariably targeted women. And it's a sad reality, but the financial literacy of women is certainly smaller than that of men. And there were wonderful targets and praise by some credit institutions. So we had to put in place a policy in order to protect the women that were the targets of those advertising campaign, of those marketing campaign by credit institutions, to warn them about the consequences of taking too many consumers' credit at a time and end up in actual bankruptcy situation. Now, I had a really tough time convincing my treasury officials that it was necessary, it was helpful, it was needed for the stability of finances, not just for those women, but of the financial system at large. It took a while, and I can assure you, and I still have former colleagues of those days who say, oh yes, I remember, your bankruptcy and Crédit à la Consommation reform, oh, la, la. But it really was helpful and it put those credit institutions on their guards that they couldn't just have those very deceptive and not properly informed campaigns and decisions as a result. So that is one area that colleagues, males had not experienced because they were not confronted to it. And that's where you can add a new dimension. I feel like a whole bunch of education in this space. Can I just jump in on the men? You know, I... Please. On the issue of the men, no, I say to women, we shouldn't also just be talking to each other. It's not, because we can't do it alone. And I want to say that men can do a lot. There's a role. Two of the presidents I served in Nigeria were very, were good in terms of getting women in cabinet. The first president, Thomas Angel, increased the number of women in cabinet to 16%. President Goodlock Jonathan doubled that number to 33%. He not only doubled it, he gave the women the most important posts. Finance, defense, aviation, education, petroleum. He did that. I'm not saying that everybody performed marvelously, but his intent was to show that it's not just about the women being in cabinet, but also they can do the crucial jobs. And he wasn't that popular for it. So men can act. And men have a role. Men, in my life, many women have been fantastic mentors to me. But so have men. And some of the chances I got came from men who believed in me. And I have to say that there was my former boss, Moin Kureshi, who was managing director. There was Jim Wolfenson, who was president of the World Bank. There was Bob Zelik. Some of my bosses just had so much confidence in me that I could waltz around the place. They thought I could do whatever. So that really helped. So men can do that. And my father, I always joke to people, my father had two daughters and five sons. And I know my brothers, if they hear this, it may say you're maybe exaggerating, but my sister and I believed he expected so much of the girls. He thought we could do anything. And we always used to joke that he expected less of the boys and more of the girls. So men can be critical. That's all I'm saying. They do have a role. So please. Your father's story is the confidence point that I made earlier. He gave you that confidence. He entrusted you with what he thought you could achieve. And you did. And you exceeded his expectations. Confidence factor was there. I don't know what your mom did. She must have done quite a bit, too. My mom did a lot. I have to give her a shout out. She's still alive. When I think about the current global economic environment, I get very scared about where we are. I really, it keeps me up at night. I perhaps think too much of global issues, but I wonder how this is going to affect the next generation of girls. I worry about what's happening in Afghanistan. It concerns me to see what's happening in Iran. It concerns me, there's so many different tensions and wars playing out globally. Does this also keep you up at night? Why am I just crazy? No, no, you're not crazy. You're not crazy and it's beautiful because it's not even your direct job when it's ours to worry about the economy and to do what we can to improve the situation. As president of the European Central Bank, my job is rather limited but critically important and it is price stability, which means fighting inflation, which has been generated by the energy crisis, instrumented by the terrible war against Ukraine. And sometimes I ask myself, am I really helping? And I know that those that are the prime victims of high inflation are the underprivileged, are the vulnerable, are the lowest paid, are the women. They are the first and prime victims of that situation. So we have to do what we have to do and we will restore that price stability and we'll do whatever it takes to do that. But yes, it keeps us all up at night because it's not a pretty situation and the geopolitical, you mentioned a few countries, but there are others as well where it's hurting, where it's bad and where it's not just the act of gods that we will see because of climate change, that will happen. It's act of men. Thank you, yes, act of men. Yeah, and I, please, Dr. Ngozi. Yeah, I was going to say, you're not crazy. I want to repeat what Christine said. The geopolitical tensions do keep me up at night, sometimes, and there's so much, it's increasing the tension by the day. And of course, it's impact on the multilateral trading system and on trade is palpable. I think it's leading to more protectionism, which is what we don't want to see. We have seen that the crisis we've had have pointed out certain vulnerabilities in the trading system. We've seen the vulnerability of supply chains that we need to build global resilience. And we've seen the concentration of manufacturing of certain products, which is certainly not resilient for the world. So the crisis has shown vulnerabilities, but my issue is, what is the response to this? I would hope the response is not more protectionism because there are actually countries and people who need the multilateral trading system to work. Japan imports 60% of its food, 60%. It's a net food importer. This is a developed country. If the multilateral trading system doesn't work, how do some people feed themselves? So that worries me. If we put more trade restrictions on goods, as we did at some point during the pandemic, then what happens is people won't get access to supplies. I'm proud that members of this organization, after the initial response with those kinds of trade restrictions, did lower them and goods did move around. We had PPEs, we had other supplies that moved around and trade played its role. So I'm just saying, let us not forget that the multilateral trading system has delivered for 75 years. It's helped us keep peace until now. It's delivered goods. Let's not throw out the baby. Let's not go protectionist. Let's rebuild it. Let's reimagine it so it can be used as a tool to build global resilience. We call it re-globalization at the WTO. Use it to bring in those poor people in rich countries who got left behind. Use it to bring in poor countries who are not part of the first wave of globalization. That's what we would like to see. Mr. Lagarde, you want to jump in here? Well, I can only agree with what Ngozi has said. And if you look around and ask yourself who has benefited from globalization, the first instance response that generally comes up is China because of the hundreds of millions of people who were lifted out of poverty. But looking closer to home at the moment, Europe. Europe has been a prime example of free movement of goods, capital people, and has benefited enormously from that free movement of good and is currently still exporting about 30% of what its economy produces. So it's not just the open economy in Sweden, in Finland, or other places. It's the entire European bloc that actually has the benefit of this trade and this movement of goods around the world. We cannot let that go. And I don't want to go back to Montesquieu, but it's... Is it fragile right now? Of course it is fragile. Of course it is fragile. You have this sort of potential Western versus Eastern bloc. You have these geopolitical tensions. You have war. You have sanctions right, left, and centre. So, and protectionist measures that are on the rise. Yes, it is fragile and it needs to be secured. And I often wonder, I'm giving you insight into my thoughts now, what I think about at night. What if there were more women at the negotiating table? For peace talks. Should I be naughty? Yes, please. I'm going to be naughty and say that a lot of the tensions right now are being caused by men. And that is true. It is a lot of the tensions and the war and so on. It's like your Lehman brothers and Lehman sisters thing. You know, I'm not doing this to say that, you know, women don't have their issues and they couldn't also get it, but just look at it. I just have this slight feeling that maybe if more women were involved, there would be less ego. The amount of tension might not be so high. You know, people might be willing to talk to each other a little bit more before we make that very difficult step that might not work for the world. So I'm just praying, I think about it every day because the consequences will be so dire for this organisation and for our trading system. You know, so I think bringing women in might help. And that hasn't happened yet at scale. Well, they are not the ones making these decisions or causing the tensions from whether it's from east or from west or from north or south. They are not the ones. I think by the way, there are studies on the ability of women to participate in settlement or peace negotiations and it's documented now that those settlements and those peace agreements are actually reached more easily when women are at the table and more to the point are implemented more frequently and better. I think because we bring to the table this practical sense which strips out a lot of the inflated ego that is unnecessary. Am I being naughty now? If you were invited to engage in talks, would you agree? Yes. Peace talk? Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely, and why would I agree? Not because, I'm sure for Christine, it's not because I think, you know, it's because I worry about the world. And if there's anything you can bring to the table that would help de-escalate the situation and make people see each other not as evil, you know? It would help. I always say we need to know where we have to have strategic cooperation and where we have to have strategic competition. And both can coexist side by side. Right now we're seeing strategic competition on steroids. Can I, you know, it's, I didn't know you were going to ask this question, but you saw that instantly we both said yes. I think it implies in the way we operate exactly what we are saying, somebody with a large ego, man or woman, doesn't matter, would probably say, mm, what are the likelihood of failure? Am I going to come out of that with success? Will I be given the credit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? All these things, risk analysis, pros and cons, benefits. We don't do that. We just say yes, if it can help, we'll do it. If we fail, so be it. And I think that that attitude, you know, I didn't know you would say yes, I didn't know I would say yes, but that's... I didn't know I was going to ask the question, I just took a chance. Okay, we're going to start wrapping up. And I want to give you an opportunity to give final thoughts. We've got incredible faces. Yeah, I have to say, I haven't gone to a lot of conferences where I see mostly women in the audience, so it's fantastic to see this. Final thoughts, how you're feeling about the future? What the next step is for you? What the future of my child will be, my girl child? What can she look forward to? Well, you know for someone like me who is an optimist by nature, and who never says never, I'm not feeling so good these days. I'm really, really concerned that we're sleepwalking into potential world conflict. And my focus is what can I do about it? So as to save us, we see what is happening. People are dying. I lived through a war for three years, where from the time I was 12 till I was 15. So war to me is not an academic issue. I lived through it, it didn't want me a day. Sometimes not eating, running from place to place. My parents lost everything. So it's not academic. When I see the pictures, it hurts. So my question to myself is what can you control? What can you do? And trying to see whether this organization, what we can do, we're supporting members to try to help with food prices, to try to help with trade, to keep it open, to whatever we can do to be supportive of a more peaceful world where people have enough to eat and a place to sleep. That's what I worry about, the fundamentals for ordinary people. And then just praying that we won't get into a world where my granddaughter will have to witness the world that I witnessed when I was growing up. Thank God. First of all, let's say that your daughter is lucky to have a mother like you. And if you are who you are, I bet you that there was a grandmother around who is also luck for her. And that to me means a lot because it means that despite everything that I feel just like Ngozi, I have ultimate faith in each and every one of us. And I have seen many instances, circumstances where one single individual, one single woman, one single man, can actually change the map, can change the scene. So each and every one of us we can do something where we are. And sometimes it goes beyond us and there is a higher call and you have to just move and say yes, as we just did when you asked the question. I mean, for how many years was there no agreement at all at the WTO? And I'm not putting the blame on any of the predecessors of Ngozi. But suddenly somebody gets in, gets stuck. Once the data is prepared to cooperate, once to lay a ground where people will actually talk to each other and something gets agreed. That's what I have inside me that gives me faith that of course we can improve the situation if we put our mind to it and if we believe a little bit up there as well as I do. But that inside each and every one of us there is enough good to take us further into something that will be nice for my granddaughter, your grandchildren and yours one day because don't worry, that is something which happens all the time, the passing of time. And then I have to have energy to look after my grandchild. But do you think Dr. Ngozi that if there were more women in leadership roles, some of these negative scenarios that you are worried about might be averted, could be averted, will be averted? Well, it's a big sweep to just generalize and say yes. But if women of a certain character were there, yes, I think we might. So I don't want to give the impression that just any woman walks into a job and all is well. That's not what I'm saying. But yes, there are enough women leaders that I see in the world today who have what it takes. And I believe that if they were in those roles, things might be different. Thank you. Round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. Women and leadership is the book. Cannot wait to get my hands on that. I've read a little bit. Thank you to all of you for joining us today. A big thank you to the director general of the World Trade Organization, Dr. Ngozi Okon-Joyweila and Madame Christine Lagarde, the president of the European Central Bank. Thank you so much. Well, that brings us to the end of this very special episode for International Women's Day, a truly fascinating conversation between Dr. Ngozi Okon-Joyweila, director general of the World Trade Organization and our president, Christine Lagarde. The talk was moderated by Eleni Gyokos. Check out the show notes for additional material on this topic. You've been listening to the ECB podcast with Katie Ranger. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. Until next time, thanks for listening.