 Labour Party Governorship Candidate for Lagos State of Badibor, Rhodes Viva says the state finances are not transparent and are full of shams and fraud. And Delema Modo accuses Tinnable and the APC of plagiarising MK Oabiola's Hope 93 manifesto. This is Plus Politics, I'm Mary Annacolm. The Governorship Candidate of the Labour Party in Lagos State of Badibor, Rhodes Viva on Monday tackled the Lagos State Government for running an opaque financial system. Mr Rhodes Viva said there is no accountability to the people of the state in how tax revenues are being expended. He is expected to face the incumbent Governor Babajire Songolu of the all-progressive Congress and the People's Democratic Party PDP's candidate Olajide Adirion in next year's election. Joining us live to discuss this is Baribor Rhodes Viva, he is the Governorship Candidate of the Labour Party here in Lagos. So good to have you join us in the studio. Always good to be here. Great. It's interesting that all of the Lagos State candidates for all the political parties I've had the opportunity to speak with, keep talking about the issue of finances in Lagos. Yeah. Why is that an issue? Because the government has sort of portrayed itself as one that does development by tax generation, by income generation. And you look at the level of development in Lagos, it's not up to par with the kind of income that they've been generating for over the last 20 plus years. And you actually start to see that there was a time, like in 1966, Lagos was ranked as one of the best cities in the world. Like in the last decade, Lagos is consistently ranked as one of the worst cities to live in the world. So the question is, with all these funds that they are generating, why is it not improving the lives of so many people that are in Lagos State? And I feel that that is why it will always be a topic of conversation. Because while people will say Lagos is working, you find that it's the same of the same. Every year is going and you're spending four hours in traffic. Every year is going and the same roads are being done and last for six months and get washed away. The same flooding is happening in all different communities across Lagos State every rainy season. So the question is, these funds that they are generating, how is it benefiting the lives of the common man in Lagos State? Lagos, for some people will say, is overly populated. There are lots of things happening, mostly Lagos is on top of water. The traffic situation that we're facing is, I mean, I think two days ago we were all stuck in traffic for hours and hours. But when we talk about funding, of course, Lagos State does have a great revenue, you know, that just accrues every single month. Why do you think that these monies are not necessarily used? Because this is what you're saying. You're alleging that these monies are not used for the right things. Why do you think that is? I'm not saying going as far as saying they're not used for the right things. I'm saying that via the Freedom of Information Act, you're supposed to get line-by-line items of how the government is spending money. Lagos State does not do this. Right? No, they don't. And furthermore, when you look at the bulk number that they give you for the implementation of projects, you find that when you do calculations of how much a similar project is done in Kenya or is done in Ghana, it's times three times for the price. When you benchmark it against the World Bank benchmark for what projects should cost in Nigeria, you see they are doing it at times for the price. So the conversation is not they're spending money, what they're spending money on. The conversation is about how much more infrastructure we can have if money is spent judiciously, especially, I'm going back to what you're saying. Lagos State historically houses or is home to 10 percent of the population of Nigeria. The population of Nigeria is projected to increase about 400 million next 30, 40, 50 years. That means that we're looking at the population of about 40 million people, majority of whom will be youth. The scarce resources we have should not only be being used to build Lagos for now, but Lagos for the future. And that is not happening. And that's what the conversation is circling around. We need to ensure that the people are getting maximum quality infrastructure at the best possible price. The government should be taking pride in saying we are delivering this bridge to you at this price. OK. Now, recently, the World Bank rewarded Lagos State government for transparency on the line, the word and accountability in their budgeting. Now, the state got about five point five one billionaire from World Bank. And there's been some, they call it a an SFTA performance for results grant. So they actually did this, I think a year ago or so. So this is the same Lagos State that you're saying is not transparent. Yes. So if, for instance, you're getting funding from the World Bank, this is an institution, this is an international institution where you need to meet several checks and balances and they don't give you the money in full. They give you. This is a reward by the way for transparency. But also they are doing it based on a grant that the World Bank gave them, correct me if I'm wrong. Does this translate to monies that are generated by IGR? Does this translate to funds that are raised by the NALTW every year and we cannot account for what that money is used for? Does this generate, does this translate to monies that are raised and paid to your lodgers and barba lodgers and you don't see the benefits for the people that are actually selling those markets, right? Is this transparency a thing that you're going to use to airbrush the whole of Lagos is management of resources? No. But there is obviously an internal revenue service that's supposed to oversee all of this. And of course there is an accountant general's office, there is an auditor general's office and these are people who are saddled with the responsibility of making sure that you get, according to you, line by line and detail the information as to how these monies are spent. Have you, through the FOI, gotten any information through that? We have not and this goes back to what I'm saying. You look at the train system, the train project that they're trying to do, the insight that we get is that the budget and the plan for this is 1. something billion dollars. The construction company that is doing it is putting at 100 and something million dollars, 200 million dollars. That's almost 10 times the value, right? I mean, what's this controversy? Why is this not adding up? There are several excuses that are made to justify it. You look at the Falomal Bridge, Falomal Ramp, connecting Uzumbat Falomal. You see the price per kilometer is times five. What is being, what is the norm in Kenya, in Ghana, right? And this is a ramp. The conversation now for me is this. I'm not really into tokenism because legal states, there's a lot of politics that happens here. You see, there's a lot of tokenism. I want a situation where the system in itself is transparent and it's accountable to the citizenry and you're getting projects delivered at a cost that shows that you're doing things appropriately and efficiently because our resources are scarce. Even in these funds that we're talking about that legal state has, when you relate it to the number of people that stay in legal state, legal state is still actually quite poor. So the tax net needs to be increased dramatically, but it needs to be increased in a way that people feel there's an incentive to them directly for paying their taxes. So you will not be forcing them to pay. If I'm paying my taxes and I am automatically enrolled into a health insurance scheme or I have access to mixed income housing or I have access to benefits that directly affect me, nobody will force me to pay my taxes. Interesting. Again, I'm probing to ask because there are supposed to be, if the government agencies are not probing and not asking questions, it's not just you who's supposed to, we have CSOs, we have NGOs. In fact, let's stay with the CSOs. These civil society organizations are supposed to be the voice of the people. They're supposed to be the ones who probe. But then I always ask, how free is the FOI and how powerful the tool is it? Because I remember there was a time where governments were being asked to explain their budget. So it gave access to what they've done in their budgets and you know, that just met a brick wall. Exactly. How powerful is the tool called CSOI? I believe that when you enthrone transparency and accountability in a system, it takes a life on its own because automatically there are certain things that can no longer fly, right? And I feel that that is the first step in cleansing the system. Budget is an NGO that does a lot of research and work on transparency and accountability on openness and legal states ranking in that was not impressive. The last couple of times that I looked at their reports, right? And also we should understand that when a system is run for the benefit of a couple of people, members of that system just work to maintain that status quo, right? And that's what we're pushing against. Because at this point now, looking at population increase that's going to happen, if we don't get efficient with the way we manage our resources, with the way that we implement our vision and actually have a vision for the betterment of multiple people's lives, millions of people that live in legal states, we're going to get into a situation where, I mean, on every street in legal states, you have young men that are just standing around, harassing people for money, right? That's only increase. And you're literally watching people that can be productive and adding to the development of a state just waste their lives away. But some people will say that that's the empowerment that the government is giving them. They're working as, whether you like it or not directly for the government, where did those monies go? Again, videos have surfaced online and people saying, oh, they're being overly taxed. They're saying, oh, we're asking them to contribute money for this campaign or that campaign now. Those are allegations. And then of course, some market shop owners are said to not be able to open their shops because they didn't show up for this or that. But then this is something that happens across the country where you have multiple people show up to take the same tax, but under a different nomenclature. So really, how does the Labour Party intend to put an end to this if it does emerge? Yes, so for me, like I said, taxation must directly benefit you. It should not be a question of, we are paying these monies, we don't know where it's going. And the allergy is generating billions from the market every year. And market women are in those places, there's no crush for their children. Imagine I'm paying my taxes. In fact, the law man wants to close down the market despite all the monies being paid to them because apparently they are not disposing of their waste properly when they should be managing the disposal of the waste in that system. So you see a system where money is just being extracted and extracted and there's no direct incentive for it. It's almost like a shakedown. And that's what we're working against. And when you talk about... What would you do differently? So for me, there must be, as long as you're a tax-paying member of Legal City, belong to the commonwealth of Legos. And that's in my manifesto. And it's on my vision for Legos, the situation where there are direct benefits for that. So the tax net is automatically expanded because for instance, and bringing back this conversation about transparency and accountability is not just in financing. If you're having multi-income housing development that's supposed to get to the vulnerable in society and the community, you have situations where that is being built and it's sold before it gets to the market. There must be a transparent way where it's published. These are the number of affordable units or multi-income units that we've built. This is the way to transparently get allocated one of it and it's published. It's a lottery system. You get it, it's free, not that it's free. You get it fairly. You don't need to know people to have it. And that's the kind of system that we're trying to enthrone in Legos State. Let's talk about some of the things that you have as part of your mandate. She talks about the fact that you're going to embark on an empowerment of young people and all the social engagement programs to take their attention from thuggery and crime. I've heard people say empowerment. I've seen all kinds of things under the empowerment name. What sort of empowerment are we talking about? So just to be clear. Because I've seen people give much of life and all kinds of things. What kind of empowerment are we talking about? That's not what I'm interested in. I won't even use the word empowerment. I'll talk, it's investment in human capacity. That's what we're doing across all 20 local governments and looking at basing it based on the comparative advantage of that local government where you are domiciled. For instance, if you are doing a program like this in a pair of Badagui or Kodru, you're looking at an aquaculture system. How can young people get involved in this industry? How can that value chain be extended? Badagui has one of the worst rates of cyber crime in legal state. I'm not sure if you know this. A lot of young people on the laptops all day. If we have a center where you can train and learn how to code, right? You know, I'm sure you probably know about in demand jobs now. It's not even based on what is available in Nigeria. You train now to code in Python. You come getting paid $1,000, $2,000 every month. You're literally lifting people out of poverty. And you don't have to say they have to go to university to get an undergrad before they can learn to code. Now it's about giving people skill that is in demand right now, right? And these are things that we're going to push all across the state. And even in our education system, need a situation where a lot of people drop out in a certain year, but you want to equip them with enough skills to be able to survive, especially in the places where they are domiciled. And that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about. So you know, empowerment is truly building the capacity of people. I smile when politicians, presumably, know what young people want, but have you sat with them? Have you asked them what they want? Because just as you said, that what they want and needs vary from one location to another. So assuming that all they need is this and that, is that not presumptuous on your part? No, it's not presumptuous. You know, when I contested for Senate in 2019, I traversed 115 words, meant to so many young people, youth leaders in each of these words, right? And there's dialogue. Now, you see, there's a norm and a mindset that has been created that makes it okay for young people, even people that are not working for the NURTW or last park as they are called down or whatever they remodel themselves to be, that just hang on the corner, they're parking your car and they want something off you. Or you're doing an event, they come there and they demand something off you. It has been normalized and they are backed by the state, right? So, and you see it's when it read it's over here during the N cells where BRT bosses came with people to the front of the government house in Machats, right? So the political party, the ruling party in Lagos, it has normalized and has backed this type of thing. So first as a party, we work to deliver. We are not going to work or to use people to suppress votes. So already that job description is off the table. Then secondly, there's an engagement, right? I'm not, I don't believe in making policy for people. You make policy with people. And that's why I said, you look at the comparative advantage in each local government. I'll give you an example of Badagri, right? If you can show somebody that legally, you can generate $8,000, $2,000 every month from lending out goods. You sit in front of your laptop all day anyway, right? And it's a dialogue, it's a conversation because these norms have been existing for over 20 years. You're not going to change it in a month or two months. You're going to directly link with them and make sure that the barrier to entry of any of these things is at its lowest point possible, right? And that's how government will allow for these, for very successful uptake of policy. If you just sit down and allow, sir, and you are making policy for people, it will fail. And that's why you see, that's why I said a lot of tokenism in this government, right? You see, a policy, for instance, digital education, they will talk about it and it'll be something that they will talk about for like two months, but when it's time to continue or to expand it, you see it's just left behind, right? Because it's just about the look of it. It's not about the deepening of that thing, of that type of innovation into society. A lot of politicians also make promises. You know, talk is cheap. People say, oh, I will do this, I will do that. And then when it comes down to the doing, it seems a lot more, for example, the government of the day promised us to put an end to the unemployment and the under-employment that we're experiencing to fight corruption, to deal with insecurity. As we speak, I'm not necessarily sure if that has been done. It has not been done. So again, knowing that the bottlenecks and the bureaucracies that exist within the Nigerian system, of course, some people say it takes one man, but then some others will say it takes a village. How do you intend to make sure that all of these things come to fruition? Without, because again, you see, this has been a system that has been built over the years. It's been one party, it's been one party that's been in power. How do you intend to, you know, make that U-turn? Yes, and I like how you highlighted promises that were made before. And that's why the party has been making all promises cancelled party. The idea for me is this. Whatever we're trying to achieve, right, has been well thought out and is, I'll give you an example. As part of my campaign, because I believe so much in innovation, I have done monthly health insurance for about 50,000 people, right? Now, that sounds big, but it costs 500 Nair. And these people get access to treatment to the value of 5,000 Nair. Now that might sound small, but micro health insurance completely starts to social engineer change. Because now, instead of just drinking a boo when you feel sick and have long term damage to your liver, you can go and get a diagnostic test for typhoid and malaria. And this system uses innovation to partner with the pharmacies around where you are resident. Now, I am not in government. I've done this. I did this for two reasons. One, to show a different type of politic, right? That's not just about what you eat now now, but a new normal. And true to test this system to see how innovation can work in healthcare, right? So this is stuff I'm already doing. Now, for me, this government, Labour Party, the Obidachi Movement, Goddible Revival, is a depart from regular politics. We are redefining politics. Our main agenda is to grow and nurture a whole new voter demographic to come into the system, right? So for me, we're not making promises just for the sake of it, just talking about it. No, I'm an architect. I believe in urban renewal. I believe that urban renewal is tied into how you live, how it's tied into the roles that you're doing. It's tied into efficiency of how you manage your resources. And this is what I intend to do because on the long run, everybody will benefit, Nigeria will benefit if Lagos is working. People talk about notoriety in terms of these kinds of offices, especially if you're running for the number one office in the state. Going up against a party again that has been in power for so many years. And of course, you also have under position where you came from that has also been contending with the sitting party. And now you seem to have engaged now in the three horse races. What are your chances? I think my chances are brilliant, actually brilliant. Yeah, when I ran in 2019, I got a good understanding of the numbers. You see, when you talk about the greatness of or the dominance of APC in Lagos State, and you realize that less than 16% of people turn out in elections. And in that 16%, only 10% actually go to the APC. That is with all the local government structure. That's with all the wealth and money that they have at their disposal. That's with all the suppression and intimidation that they do to people. Then you realize that there is a silent majority that has not yet been inspired to participate in this process. And why I say my chances are brilliant right now is because that silent majority are the ones powering this movement in Labour Party. They are mobilizing to be mobilized. We had a rally on October 1st. As a leader of the party in the state, I can assure you that we did not give anybody money. They printed their t-shirts themselves. They came out themselves. They've realized that they cannot leave politics to just the politicians. They are getting involved. They are moving things forward. And that is the future. That is the only way we can enter servant leadership in government. Some political pundits, especially those in the opposition, have said that you will lose, those people that view that silent majority you just made reference to, will lose their steam before the election. That it's not sustainable. This so-called movement that you have, which you seem to be tapping for, might lose its steam. Again, I like to ask this question to every politician, any politician who shows up. Political parties have the onus of virtual education. Yes. Some sort of civic education. But that does not necessarily happen. They live for INEC and, of course, an NOA that's almost non-existent. What is the Labour Party doing, apart from the sensation, the obedeity phenomenon? What are you doing as a party to educate more and more leg motions? So the majority, the main thing that we're doing is teaching people how to vote. It might seem like it's him, but there are so many people that want to vote for you, but they don't know your party logo. They don't know the process. And this is what we're doing. We're doing outreach in every different local government. We're taking big banners, showing people examples of how you're going to vote, sensitizing them on the importance of participating in elections. But what I'm trying to say is this. Normally, because in lots, you find that most politicians don't really have much to offer. So they determine the play, right? But you find the situation where in Nigeria today, there's a departure from the norm. And those people are highly already educated, right? They are highly educated, not in terms of going to school, but in terms of knowing what they want, in terms of understanding that they need a new Nigeria and this is the pathway to get there, right? And it's extremely refreshing. I've been in politics for some time and what we are doing is nurturing, nurturing and growing that energy, right? Channeling it down to the polling units. That's our job. People said that Nigerians would just, legal shans and Nigerians would just forget what happened in the end hours. But people were still out on October 20th, right? They thought people would just forget and move on with things. They still had to come and be fine tear gas on them. This is a new generation. This is a digital age generation. This is a generation that has access to information at their fingertips. It's like nothing that Nigeria has ever seen. Can this momentum be sustained? And you know what is even more important than it being sustained? Because I'm certain it will be sustained. It's the new Nigeria that will be formed afterwards. In Nigeria where the citizenry holds their leaders accountable. Because those citizens put them in. Seventh leadership is doing where this country is going to move forward. The longer we have loads running over us because they have the money. They have the network. They have the boys. They will never be accountable to the people. And we need leaders that will be accountable to people with intelligence and empathy. Because that's doing Nigeria and move forward. Oh well. Badibwa Viva Rhodes is the governorship candidate of the Labour Party here in Lagos. Always a pleasure to have you in this studio. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for coming. We'll take a quick break. And when we return, we'll be talking about the APC's manifesto. We'll be having a guest in the studio. Of course, to break it down for us. Stay tuned. We'll be right back.