 Okay international travel outside of the United States here on the middle way. This is stink tech. I'm J. Phi Dillon. It's Monday morning Alexander more of our joins us. Where are you Alexander? I'm in Phoenix, Arizona the Valley of the Sun Okay, and you're a traveler and you went to Austria In Europe and we are going to talk about your adventures getting there and getting back And then we're going to talk about the you know the dynamic of international travel It still isn't easy and it won't be easy for a while. So tell us about your trip. I was in It was a wonderful trip that we free pandemic we did every summer actually with my daughters and my lovely wife The advantage that we have in a ways we all do all at least dual citizens So neither side can really keep us out legally we have the right to go there doesn't mean there are no problems when you When you enter and exit and prepare and all that kind of stuff. So it was an experience in many ways Surprisingly enough a relatively pleasant experience. There was a lot of formalities to fulfill pre-registration on the way there COVID testing on the way back So there were lots of things to do and the one thing that struck me is really odd During the entire trip. Nobody ever asked me just asked me to show them the vaccination card I thought that would be would be my number two right after the passport and I literally never had to show it That's interesting. So, you know, how long were you there? How long were you when you're up in Austria? We were there for almost two months actually we stayed in Austria We didn't cross international borders there because at the time rules were changing pretty much every other day So you would Go to Italy for a quick trip and then probably not be able to come back because of some lockdown or some border closure So we decided to stay put which probably was a smart move Enjoyed the country Well, I you know, I think let's take a moment and digress if you don't mind professor just to talk about If you could make the distinction between life in Europe life in Austria now life in the United States It's different It has, you know, I think it is it has been made different by the Trump administration, but it is also different in general You know, we have in a way. We've gone on separate paths because of COVID Can you talk about life in Austria and how it is compared to life in the US now? I mean certainly is influenced in many ways by COVID But I think given the past four years and probably beyond that, of course Europe was Swerving away a little bit from being a full-blown ally of the United States and that still shows today What strikes me in the COVID context really as the biggest problem We have a global pandemic not a localized pandemic But we still think we should solve them incrementally locally regionally nationally rather than globally I mean the pandemic doesn't know physical borders and does not respect them But we think we can solve them locally and the Europeans did the same thing I mean, there was no European Union response that was particularly uniform with also country by country that responded Which partly might be good. I mean Even COVID's not the same motor in Sweden or in Switzerland or in Spain There are there's different manifestations of a health crisis, of course But to cope with the problems, I think more cooperation would make a lot more sense You'd be asked about life in Europe. Generally. I think it's a little bit more relaxed. There's a little more willingness to believe government measures When they're being adopted, there's still reluctance to do it but not such, you know Partisan response to what's being done depending on which which party is in power So if a health department comes out and says you might be a good idea to put a mask on then people by and large say let's do that Mr. Perfect compliance absolutely not is their Conspiracy theories and in European countries absolutely Demonstration to see recently in Italy, which has an 80% vaccination rate already They're aiming for 90% There's public demonstrations against the past that they're requiring for pretty much anything Interesting. So people generally believe the science Is there any You know kind of thing that we have here where people are they feel it's their right to reject the vaccination and they will go to great lengths to Oppose it to sue over it to do Protests over it and ultimately to threaten Those who are calling for vaccinations with violence Is anything like that? There is but I would say overall and again, it's many different countries doing different things and realities are not all uniform We're out here, of course I think there's less of it and there's less willingness to actually Resort to violence and intimidation. I think that is just not so much present What strikes me as very similar those who actually are opposed to mandates including masks and vaccination mandates are on the right end Of the political spectrum there as well. So it's parties that are operating far to the right of the center that really embraced the idea of mask Resistance and vaccination resistance and then, you know QAnon is not as present as it is here But it's been seen there too. So sometimes at demonstrations, you would see an actual Q flash popping up So I wonder if it's you know, like monkeys see monkey do sort of thing Where people in other places for example, Austria other places in Europe, you know, have this protest Assign this process protest to a political, you know point on the spectrum And do it because it's been done in the US I mean, have we been a leader in ridiculous protests and are people following that because we have Well, I think honestly, we should be patriotic in responding to that question, too We are leaders in protest and that's a good thing actually our First Amendment is a very good thing The right to speak freely doesn't necessarily have a quality test in it So, you know Start speech and not so smart speed the speech are equally predicted And I think that's a good idea Alexander Michael Jones multiplies of ideas still works largely We are also I think we're exporting Strange speech and strange behavior to a certain extent. I don't believe people in Europe might be different in other continents I would say what there's more monkey see monkey do attitude In Europe, it's not just because there is something done in the US They'll do it as well, but it certainly is an example. That's being done and then is being Embraced and and be gravitated in a way in a local format. So it's kind of translated into the local Again, mostly on the political spectrum right wing extremist agenda and then is embraced and used in a way Without necessarily having the made in the USA label sticking out of it, but still I mean, there's certainly some inspiration coming We go one step further, you know in the US I mean that of course there are people who protest this sort of thing if her and one charade or another but Call it a political charade and the other side, you know, we have we have a divided country over and There are people on the you want to call it the left side perhaps Who think that those who are protesting against something that will save their lives is ridiculous and Irrational and suicidal if you will and And so we have we have a very sharp division in this country on that issue among others. So query Does the divisiveness also exist in Europe? Does it exist in in Austria or the people on the other side, you know, do they feel that those who would protest and Be called hesitant about vaccinations and masks. They think that those people are nuts. What do they think? I will probably say there is a larger percentage of the population who embrace Validity and value of vaccinations and probably the the fact that wearing a mask is a good idea Even if it's inconvenient to say let's do it. We do it in the places where it's necessary go to the supermarket You don't want to you know, breathe on your salad and then somebody else buys and eats it So I think there is more Qualitatively speaking more understanding and quantitatively speaking. There's more people who actually embrace reason There is also the other side of course that embraces conspiracy theories and rejection of science I think it's less the rejection of science as such which has been a Clear presence. I think here in the United States since since at least COVID began and I'm sure it's rooted in something much much earlier It just came to the forefront so much So my my understanding is from from spending time there and of course Intensive conversations is that the percentage of people who just are reasonable is a little bit higher and The percentage of people who are manifestly unreasonable and to leave conspiracies is relatively smaller They are the ones who think that it's reasonable to wear a mask and have a vaccine. Are they? they divided from they Angry and they what do you want to say that? They Concerned about the rationality of the others I mean, do we have the kind of divide there that we have here in terms of left and right yes and no Or is it a more? understanding appreciative kind of division Well, I think it's not so much set up for a divisiveness that's sort of a one versus theater Two options only as we have here because we have a two-party system You'll give up pretty much every single European country You have at least five and sometimes up to 25 political parties that span every I mean so many Aspects of the spectrum the political spectrum. So there's not really the duality in a way So you can't say there's the conservative and there's the liberal because there's five conservative streams and five liberal streams So it's a lot more split up in many ways. Well, that speaks that speaks highly of having multiple parties, doesn't it? It does in part I mean if you look at the reality Italy being a good example, of course You have so many parties that forming a government is sometimes quite difficult and they have elections multiple times a year at least in the past So you can also go the other way But I think being pressed into just two options, which of course if you look at both in the United States They're not homogeneous by anything that's so they'll all have these very streams in them But they have to kind of come together in the tent ultimately which there you can just build a new tent eventually and and form a party Since we're talking party politics. I think the Issue but also the Climate crisis of course has really boosted one particular party Which is a little bit on the left but not so much the Green Party is anywhere in in European countries There are strong Green Parties and they're more mainstream than they were initially with a very strong Ideology that runs towards climate change and health prevention as well. Oh, that's great It's a great connection, but it's also important to know that people care about it You know, it's very worrisome I've had conversations with the the journal the journalism program at UH Manoa and They to to the to the person that they feel that the most important story in our lifetimes is none other than climate change With all even with all this other distraction and noise and trouble Climate change is the thing that's existential And I totally agree. I'm happy to hear that people are aware of that. What are they? What do they think of Glasgow? What do they think of Biden's stand on climate change? What do you think about the effectiveness of the you know, I wouldn't call a reconstituted group at Glasgow I think there's a lot of weariness of course Especially towards the United States because we have been very inconsistent in our US Europe relations And especially also in the global climate change response in many ways So I think they really want to see concrete action not not beautiful words and not speeches I believe Biden did relatively well Speaking but then he's of course, you know, it's multiple problems at home with getting his package passed and it seems that We have another Kind of winning shot coming out of West Virginia now that it might be even more in peril than we think so Europe knows that and Europe certainly wants action instead of words And I think that you will see that in Glasgow. You saw it at the G20 meeting already that there's hesitation and there's a real demand for concrete action History will look back on these times and wonder why humanity couldn't figure it out That is if there's anybody left to look back Let's hope history will have an opportunity to actually look back So what you know in general, what is life like in Austria in Europe? But well through through the lens of Austria, for example, you know a lot of people I know and we talk about it all the time is we stay home. We don't go out much People ask us to dinner and to visit them in their homes and we say no We're not ready People want to have parties. They want to return to the time of a social engagement if you will I mean physical social engagement not the kind that Mark Zuckerberg is selling That kind of engagement and and you know, they resist I resist and a lot of people I know Resist and so you have a change in the social fabric and in the social connection if you will And I wonder if did you observe anything like that in Austria? And what's the dynamic on that? Very much so I think that's probably a pan-European phenomenon like the global phenomenon Really the people are eager to go back to socializing and then having normal relations with you know, their peers And and just being able to get outside and do stuff Europe especially Austria from my experience had a lot of lockdowns where people were literally told Do stay at home unless you need to go to the hospital or to the supermarket And that went for months So people would not see their friends would not go to church would not attend meetings would not really socialize at all And there was a really a burning need I think for for doing that in the summer When a little bit of opening happened, you were still had me ask requirements You still have very strict requirements for going into public places So if you went to a restaurant the waiter had to ask what are you vaccinated and look at your your part Or you were tested where you were recovered if you didn't have one of those three to call them the three cheese in the german language You were not you were not admitted to the restaurant You couldn't attend concerts to the extent that weren't you couldn't hop on a train you could not really go anywhere So people were eager to do that It went a little bit the other the wrong way then the numbers right now pretty bad I think they're operating at an incidence rate of about three hundred and ninety or something right now, which is very high us put them back in Group four of the of the risk countries actually is there's there's concern at this point in time because lots of people then over did it and That they're partying and that they're hanging out and then of course numbers came back And they also opened international borders to an extent. So summer vacation was possible again Uh, and lots of people brought the infections back from that which of course produced the backlash So there's no means perfection there by by by no means whatsoever as a lot of errors Trial and error going on as well and a lot of frustration too But the universal approach I think is similar to here that at some point We need to figure out a way to getting back to something that is resemble normalcy How about you? I mean, did you get out as much as you wanted? How was your life affected while you were there for your trip? Did you you know, I mean everybody likes to walk in austria Take take to the mountains, if you will Did you do that? Were you able to get out what what what quality of life did you have while you were there? Uh, surprisingly very few limitations as long as you followed the simple rules of putting your mask on when you were in a crowd and making sure you had your You document with you that showed you were vaccinated in or one of the three g's and there was really a limited number of things you couldn't do Was a market trend the way from city tourism actually to tourism in the countryside so places like farms Little country hotels were overbooked Cities were empty I did both actually we went on a on a weekend trip to one of the largest cities in austria grats and in a city hotel Where you know, you had your standards you could get in and you felt pretty safe actually Do your breakfast buffet with all the precautions that they put in place Uh, we'd also did a lake vacation where the hotel itself Gave the option for unvaccinated people you can get tested every day for free So they just went to a little station and a nurse came in and performed the tests and then people could stay there as well So it was it was well organized Uh, well, we didn't get running here like the public testing for instance Centers for testing were up and running. You just signed on signed on online You you got your appointment you went in you got your test results 30 minutes later so, um, let's talk about um, let's talk about um The tour the tour boats, you know, the 10 minutes don't go by alexander when I don't get an ad On my email that I should I should go with biking in europe I should get on a river there and and and and then there are you know, a number of other cruise organizations that are Asking me to book stuff And I say to myself. Oh, and my favorite one is is the caribbean You know lots of you know sail by Haiti and wave Right So I'm wondering, you know, how real is that are people traveling we talk about travel today people traveling people, um, you know going on the river cruises You know, what how do they react to this sort of ad? I know how I react. I said that's ridiculous But but hey, maybe other people do that Is is tourism coming back It is coming back. It's coming back sort of based on the rules in place when you when you look at europe For instance, it was a much bilateral approach. I mean Government of one country would say we feel that the other country makes to us is safe enough So we'll open the borders as long as they follow our rules So you had certain groups of tourists coming back in there was an absolute non existence Of course of american tourists at that time because coming in was very restricted And no chinese tourists who usually make up a large Question of summer tourism specifically So if you look at the monetary losses, the tourism was suffering at this time and still is suffering. That's that's enormous Uh, there was a lot of social legislation adopted to basically catch the most severe damages of non tourism Basically to make sure that hotels could survive and restaurants could survive just mixed in But that didn't guarantee that everybody actually did. So I think tourism was down to You know the single digits when it comes to percentage at the height of the shutdowns And then started kicking back in During the summer actually Especially late summer. So the two months I spent there actually Salisbury is one of the three most visited towns. That's my hometown in in europe So you normally have hundreds of thousands of tourists Uh meandering around In any given week First week I was there. There was probably two or three that I encountered on a two hour long walk Through town towards the end of our stay two months later Clearly had changed and there was larger groups, especially of certain tourists germans for instance italians swiss Eastern europeans were allowed back in after the numbers hadn't been done Then so that they tried to get people back in As quickly as possible, but also as reasonably as possible Did it work out? It's you know, we'll probably need 20 years of very thorough sociological and medical research to Work through what really happens during the covid pandemic. I think partly it worked partly it failed The numbers right now are not so encouraging Yeah, as you said trial and error We learned in this case by trial and error and different places Have different trials and different errors and it would be so much better if they were scientifically coordinated Um, well, let's let's talk about the uh, you know the the economy for a moment. Um, you know, I I feel that That the business always wants to get back in business They they or you know, they've got to survive They've got to have a bottom line or they got to go out of business Which would be tragic for each business and for a collective of businesses Um, so they are pushing government. They were always pushing go lobbying everywhere You you can you can see the lobbying government should reopen things and um, you know That was a huge mistake back in march and april last year Um, and it may to some extent be a trial and error mistake now Um, but you know the process business pushes government to reopen Um, but query how is business doing? Um, you know, are people not going back to work as they are in the us, you know The resignation phenomenon Um, uh, they uh, are they working at home or not working at all? Are they They hoping the government will take care of them To the point where they don't have to work And how is the production economy doing? How is the supply line economy doing? How does that differ in austria? I would say there's a lot of similarities. I'm not an economist So I can only speak to the extent that actually there's something about that the supply line certainly is the same issue in europe If you look at especially gas that basically all comes from russia Russia uses it partly at least as a political tool as well So there's a definite problem there if you look at the news coming out of the uk brexit didn't tell beaters So, uh, I think europe as a whole including former europe like the united kingdom is suffering quite significant Later as a shortage of uh truck drivers there as much as it is here So supply is there from the an issue. I would believe that the um, the move Away from actually working and towards the home office was a little less pronounced in europe There were more attempts to actually keep people on the job as much as possible There was more social legislation than here to cover Unemployment and make sure that people would actually not fall into homelessness and starvation That also has been phased out at this point in time. So we're in a similar situation in many respects. I believe overall if you look at the overall european mentality versus us mentality You use the word business. I think we are probably 80 business think and 20 social think Europe is probably more 60 40 And that might have Really come out very clearly during this pandemic. I think the 60 business 40 social or the other way around Okay, yeah, well, you can't you can't throw every single european country in the same box I think there's different approaches in different places, but if I would have to evaluate the european union as a whole I would say probably somewhere in that in that region I mean the european union itself of course is a business arrangement It's basically a An international organization aimed at fostering business and thereby preventing war That's the original idea of the european union, but they also have fast Social legislation at this point in time There's much being done and it's just you know connected to business inseparably anyway Well, you know during during the pandemic my wife and I have seen We've seen the big computer companies get bigger And more arrogant if you will It's a really interesting movie alexander called the billion dollar code and it's the story of a Cell of German developers artist artists and developers who invent what amounts later to google earth And google earth somehow steals it from them according to the movie and This is a really phenomenal thing because you see the strengths Of of the european effort in programming But it's completely overwhelmed by the american capital effort In allowing for really really big computer companies software companies On the other hand, I have observed a number of companies even in eastern europe. I'm dealing with one now in kiev Who first class first class software Another one in istanbul First class and i you know in the soft underbelly. There are a lot of competitive software companies And I suspect this is part of the kind of global view Of yes, we can sell software across the border All we've got to do is get down there and learn how to make it Do you find that is there a heightened awareness of software and computer activity? networking activity virtual virtual activity In austria and in europe Well, absolutely. I think that's the same as here. There's entrepreneurial spirits out there operating in the reality that you know Social interaction was pushed towards the virtual world to a certain extent during the past 18 months And they certainly have grown in many respects I think the europeans also at least to a certain extent had a bit of a regulatory approach Where it's the freedom to replicate and duplicate and quadruplicate and involve everything in one big Corporation that took on google a little bit more aggressively than we did here in this country when it comes to personality rights For instance, I think the truest prudence also if you look at the european code of justice however imperfect it is It puts individual rights At a slightly higher level of protection And we we do when it comes to interaction with big computer companies And also the protection of the right not to be pursued for the rest of your life for everything you put on facebook Or whatever it's called now Has found a little bit more sympathy with the judges and the regulators there So I think we've probably a little bit more mellow in europe when it comes to To that a little bit more human There was a piece on 60 minutes last night of yuvail harari the israeli also About the you know the future of humanity and and how ai is going to Change us and it's it's inexorable, you know But I also want to I wanted to ask you about the movies You know, we are staying home so we spent a lot of time with netflix and amazon movies and others and I have noticed that there is a lot of movies first-class movies Movies, you know to a certain extent you think well, they must be emulating hollywood. They must be using hollywood talent Um, but but no, I think they're you know, authentically culturally ethnically european these movies and I see a lot of european movies subtitles sometimes even in english um Many times even in english and it's not just the english It's uh, it's many countries I mean, I saw a movie not too long ago I considered first-class it was it was made in bogaria or Hungary or one of those and it was a first-class movie and i'm thinking that everybody's getting in on this because it is so International it's not travel. You have travel by way of movies. It's a great travelogue It's it's an exposure to you know, the culture the history of a given place And I and I believe that we have we've sort of gone to another chapter on european movies in the american market Um, but what about austria? It's austria watching only american movies now. It's austria watching european movies What is austria watching and what are you watching when you're in austria? We spend about every waking up watching soccer actually because there was the soccer championship But that put in time and my girls were very much into that So that would be 80 percent of my tv watching during the time we were there, uh, but certainly if you if you look at the Cable tv channels there there is a existence of preponderance probably of of american another sort of you know internationalized which is also another word for american type movie, but there's also a proud presence of older historical Nationally produced movies which austria had a bit of a tradition actually back in the 1950s 60s early 70s are producing What we would now partly call kitsch but kind of cute kitsch Movies usually historical movies usually comedies of that kind. They're playing routinely on tv People are actually watching those as well. They're kind of culturally relevant to Uh, and I I've absolutely believe I hope it will happen actually that european movies become more of an international You know item of sales not just something that you watch editor and you know offbeat Cultural event every once in a while or good good to come and see them there But something that actually people in cinemas would be watching on netflix and so on Uh, again, i'm not an expert in that field, but I think there's a few out there And austria has its famous expert christoph waltz, of course who made it into our mainstream american movies including some very good ones But there's more than that What about news about cable news for example, um, if if you're In salisbury can can you um look at msnbc? Can you look at cnn? Can you look at can you look at fox news if you want? You know, is that all available around europe? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and then there's part of few european networks as well that out out there I mean from deutche velle bpc French national tv that broadcasts in english and other languages So if you want to you can see anything. There's a lot of local news as well that people watch quite a bit I think the news network still especially in modern and central europe is dominated by sort of the the official news stations which were initially government run, but now more You know balanced corporation. I have a legislative mandate of being balanced in many ways The the one difference that I always notice very clearly is there's a separation between the broadcasting of facts and the broadcasting of opinion Uh, I know when I grew up you could you could easily say that because you had one person who would Or two who would bring the news and tell the facts as again Facts are not absolutely objective But as neutral as possible And then another person would come on who was actually the designated opinion person And that person would then comment on the news So you could easily figure out now the station is giving me the facts or trying at least and now they're bringing their opinion Uh, and I think that is a is a still there to a certain extent I think it's a it's a helpful tool for people to actually Understand that facts sometimes need to be viewed as facts and also tested against other facts not just other opinions Acts are so important in any in any country that would claim to be a democracy, you know So before covid began, you know think tech was covering the migrant issue The migrant from the Middle East Central Asia the migrant issue from Africa or you know, especially sub-saharan Africa, but also northern Africa and You know, it was it was tragic, but it was also uplifting in the sense that angola merkel, you know could Welcome people and the country would be behind her in that. I miss her. I want you to know uh So So the question is uh, you know, I really we haven't covered it during covid not as much And I wonder how the migrants are doing. I wonder how the migrant issue is doing Are they still coming as the government permitting them or barring them? You know on the basis of covet or other considerations Uh political considerations if you will. Um, so how how are the migrants doing in austria, for example I would say the the covet emergency certainly prompted governments to use that as a as a tool for being a little bit less Well-coming and a little bit more restrictive Uh crossing the Mediterranean for instance has clearly done down in numbers There were still numbers coming and still terrible accidents with lots of people drowning boats capsizing and so on Uh, but I think covet was used in part to really curtail migration to a certain extent Uh, there was also the issue with of course the shengen area and the question of where people would have to apply for asylum ongoing discussions of course about especially this southeastern europe Uh, turkey now is has used the migrant issue in part as an organ and chip as well about Releasing or not releasing migrants into the european union the same goes for Belarusia and and and the ukraine in a certain extent so that that's certainly definitely a big issue out there I don't think migrants have benefited in any way from from covet. There was no increased sympathy There was no understanding that people can't be returned into countries that are much less equipped to deal with a global pandemic than what are currently So I think it's still the same problem as before Since you mentioned Angela Merkel, of course, who I think everybody appreciated the respective of political opinion just appreciated as a person And and there's a sentiment of sadness that she's leaving the political stage would of course the relatively open door policy Five six years in the past also cost was a bright wing backlash in germanium part When the afd the so-called alternative for germany party That made it into certain regional problems now and also the federal level Uh grew in support because of the perceived liberal open door policy So I think it all it always has Different kinds of effects whatever whatever you do Right that that crisis certainly was a defining moment for european many ways Yeah, well the migrant issue was a defining moment to change things maybe forever and now the What do you want to call it the The changes to that by covet That is also a defining moment for europe I think and now going forward it'll be sort of a A settlement of those two You know a moderate moderation in the middle somehow Well, let me let me you know whenever I come back to hawaii from a trip And I fly a fly into hawaii. I always have an emotional reaction about returning here Comparing the places I've been in the plate, you know in hawaii that I'm returning to and I wonder if I could ask you personally your You know impressions your reactions as you as you flew back to the united states from europe How did you feel landing back home again? It was certainly a positive emotion not only because I hadn't seen my parents for a while So there was there was the personal connection, but also coming back always is a is a good feeling As a dual citizen, I always feel at home in two countries. I Spread my love equally and I also spread my criticism equally When you don't live in a country, I think when you're away for a while you come back as a Very strong patriot, but a very critical patriot as well So that that's always my feeling both ways and wherever I go Um, would we would be I think what do you have in europe is a it's a very welcoming culture And that certainly was not affected by covid at all So when you when you land there and hawaii might be very similar to that You feel at home, even if it's not your home and and covid did not really distract from that So I think the the welcoming character of people is still there Uh, and and also don't believe that it turned into a massive anti european agenda So, um, I don't I don't think that you know the firebrands that there's sometimes saying there will be a german exit and the poland exit and whatever in the future Uh, I think probably brexit was a good thing for the eu like a wake up call to probably do something different But I don't see the euro skepticism being such a strong element As someone to make it appear including in the medium Thank you for that. That's that's important to know We're out of time professor and I I want to ask you one last question, you know To make sort of a closing summary Of how you feel international travel is doing And how you feel that it will be Going forward as we go forward it hopefully out of covid Can you talk about how It has affected international travel how it is affecting it and how it will affect international travel Well, I would say it has affected tremendously. I mean the international travel was down to a marginal percentage of what it had been before Uh, on the other hand, you know global travel is not just the thing of numbers It's also a question of quality And maybe it gives us a moment to pause and say what kind of global travel do we want in the future Do we've all be squeezed into a gigantic airplane together with 800 of our best friends? Uh, and you know after covid will breathe the the safest air in the world, but we Still feel as if we are sardines Or do we want to have options for more quality travel that might be a little less but a little better In certain ways. Do we just want to go to the places where everybody goes and just walk in a line and look at Compay or the old town of salzburg or do we want to do tourism in the sense of exploring countries? Which I think was the original idea of it And I don't know whether covid will help in this in this way and certainly has reduced numbers quite a bit Whether it has improved quality. I would be able to say Hopefully there's there's this effect in a way Because ultimately it will also improve the quality of the travel itself. I mean people who Who have a better experience might be much more It might be much more beneficial to them than if they go more frequently Uh, their experience might be better and their understanding might be better And one thing I think that we all need is is going out there into the world and trying to figure out what other people are thinking Uh and engaging with other cultures and other Opinions, right? We can't all live in a bubble Yeah Well, thank you professor alexander moreover. Thank you very much for coming around and and discussing your trip with us I can only say that I I wish I had been with you in between the soccer matches to take a two week Rather a two a two hour tour of salzburg Um, and I think if you do that, um, you can be and you are a renaissance man Thank you alexander Very much appreciated the pleasure as always. Thank you. Thank you