 What's up everybody? Welcome back to Sequence. I'm your host Trevor Ploof. We have a very special guest for you today, the first pitcher ever on Sequence. He's a streamer. He's a podcaster. He's a stud reliever for the Minnesota Twins, Trevor May. What's up, Trev? What's up, T? Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate you coming on. We go way back. We do. 2013, 2014. Yes, sir. We were teammates. In fact, your first ever start in Oakland's first pitch, Coco Chris, fly ball to me. So we have some history together. And then it went downhill from there. Well, maybe a starting round. Now that I'm in the bullpen, I feel so bad about my rookie year, like so bad. I know what they were saying. I actually love that that you, you know, you came up as a starter. You had some success. Some starts weren't so successful, but you found your way into big leagues. Now you're one of the best relievers in the game. Your 2019 season was incredible, backing up at another great effort in 2018. So I kind of want to start with that. Like what was that transition like going from starter to reliever? Did you alter your pitch mix at all? It took me a little bit. I saw, especially at 15, we're still together in 15, weren't we? Yes, sir. Yes. So in 15, when I got moved to the pen the first time, I didn't really change it that much. I threw change-ups more, but I started to add some velocity. And I kept the curveball and kept the slider, and we kind of tried to figure out, you know, what the best stuff was kind of got rid of the sinker. So I threw for the sinker, the two seam, and I never threw it sinker. So I had five pitch mixes as a starter. I still had them technically all the way through 15 because I thought we were going to go back to starting a series of injuries after that. So 16 and then 17 with Tommy John. So it took me a while to figure that out, but especially going into last year, I shaved it down a lot. And with Hefner, Jeremy Hefner, our bullpen coach, who's another pitching coach for the Mets, we basically did, he was just a sounding board, man. I could bounce stuff off him and West Johnson coming over to me just saying, hey, I think I want to do this and I think this gets better. This is better than this. What do you think? And then they would go and say, if there was numbers on it, we look at numbers first, then we look at actual physics behind it. We have Josh Calkin, the head in the analytics department over here in Minnesota, too. So a lot of, a lot of really smart guys came over and gave me all their different opinions. And when they're like, hey, this shows this, I'm pretty good with just accepting the data that's telling me a story and just buying it. It doesn't take me long to make an adjustment. And I made that adjustment. I think based on the clips we're going to see an adjustment that I made. But yeah, I did shave down the three pitches. I mean, your goal as a reliever is to throw, in the words of Kevin Jepsen, he was like, I'm trying to throw three pitches and be out of the inning, which and Sam Dyson was the same way. And I was like, no, I want three punches. You got to throw more than three. So it's weird. It was weird from a mindset standpoint. But yeah, you try not to throw 30 pitches every inning. So unless you do that, you don't need five pitches. You need three maximum probably as a reliever. Maybe a fourth one that it's like funky. If you're one of those, you're like a Joachim Soria type guy. But you know, I'm more of a throw as hard as you can and then go from there. So yeah, we shaved it down. I love that. I love when guys go and they, you know, maybe sit 92, 93 as a starter, then you put them in the pen, you can unleash them, let them go and see what they got. And I think that's kind of what you did. I have one question. I'm so curious. Like I could sit here all day and talk pitching with you because I'm curious about it. I don't know everything about it, but I feel like having talked to guys, I have some, some perspective, but we played together and at that time the twins, not so analytical, not so progressive in the technology that was used for pitchers. So when you get this whole regime change, new coaches, new technology, what was like the one thing, one piece of technology that you use that you think benefited you the most? Piece of technology. I think that there's a couple things that I think were equally important. So we have all the Stadcast ad in the world now showing not only spin rates, but I think spin rate was kind of the buzzword that first came out was like the analytical, like when you're studying the physics of how ball moves, that was like the first one come up with like, you know, McHugh, Skirball and all that kind of stuff. And McCollers is Skirball. And McCollers is Skirball. And now that was just an indicator that you have the ability to move a ball, to be, to get elite movement on a pitch, because the speed directly correlates with the amount of moves usually. And so basically I wanted to know how my stuff was moving, not how I saw it, because, you know, some guys finish straight on, some guys finish like falling off the right, some guys finish off the left. That's going to change how things are perceived, how they're moving. And the hitter doesn't see it the same way. So things that I thought would maybe have some horizontal movement, didn't have any. I just, everything was north and south up and down vertical. And then Stadcast data, you know, over the last, since 2017, has told me specifically, it's like you've almost no horizontal movement ever, but everything, you have a lot of vertical movement on all your pitches. And like my, my fastball carries and doesn't have, doesn't drop normally in the normal amount. So when it's, looks like it's, you know, mid-thigh, it's actually above your belt. And, and then my breaking ball would break, it would be slow enough to where it would break more down than you would perceive it breaking down. So if I could start it, it would look like it's mid-thigh and then be like below the, just above the dirt. So I, they're like, play off these two things because they're coming out of the same plane too. And, you know, and another thing, they debunked them kind of myth of picking up, quote unquote, picking up spin unless it's just an absolute wobble, right? Yes. For a popped pitch. But any good, if you're throwing a slider that's good and located, the ability to react to like a dot or something, maybe changes your ability to fight something off, but not hit it hard. So like, they're like, guys like Miggy could like, like his hands are really quick and like, it's like, I'm not hitting that, but I'm also not going to miss it. Like type of thing. Then that's like the top two percent of hitters. Like most guys, it's just not, not easy. So once I learned about the break on my pitches, then I started to develop a plant. I got really much better at developing how I was going to attack people because I knew what they were seeing. And that sounds really simple. It's not. So the stat cast data and like rap soda, we'll tell you the stuff now and the track man and all this, all these devices you can get throwable pens, we'll all tell you the stuff. But I have the in-game stuff on, you know, the MLB website, baseball savant. It's all in there. So I would actually just use that. Like I didn't even know you could use public information just to see how my things were breaking. So that was big. So you, okay. I want to touch on that real quick. So you're saying the way you perceived your pitches wasn't actually what they were doing. And as soon as you got that information of what your pitches were doing, how they were breaking, how they weren't breaking, you were able to essentially plan and I guess tunnel, talking about tunneling now. So it's tunneling to an extent. That's part of, so you're basically in your, I guess what this is kind of the first time I've made this realization. You're making I'm able to create in my head what it looks like a pretty accurate picture of what my stuff looks like to use the hitter, which is really interesting. So like you have a little bit of ability to put your head like without being one, being a hitter. And I could be like, okay, so this is why I get weird swings and misses up all the time on miss pitches, because it moves like this. And then it's come out since then like her shilling was one of those guys that did that forever. Roger Clemens did the, did the old hard slider. He had a bunch of vertical movements. So he was like, Adam Aduvino, like the hard sinker, hard slider thing. And he threw so hard, both those pitches look the same. So like how I explain it to kids is there's guys that go side to side, there's guys that go north and south and very few people do both. Yes. Guys like Scherzer, Roy Halliday had a little bit of like Roy Halliday had some ride on his foreseam. He also had that cutter and the key sinker. So like he did, he could do that sometimes, but he was mostly here, right? Yes. So it's one of the other great, sorry, Zach Britton, sinker, slider, like that's usually what they, what they are. And so once you kind of get that realization that most people are in the mostly in those two categories, then that's like how their tunnel works. Mine was north and south. So I bought into that. That was step one. And then I started to see how much do they move? Sure. And then you, and then you, then you start as you get a body of work in, you start to link actual like value statistics to those pitches. So you're like, these guys producing runs on your fastball this much, they're swinging the mists on it, on this count this much there. So you start to build a framework like in this count in this pitches against this pitch against this guy, what are my, what's my probability of success? And it just becomes a natural like, I get prepared for a game. I overlay like what I think I do really well, how it moves over what they do well and, and what it looks like to them. And then I pick my spots in a situation like that. I do that for everybody. It's a lot of information, but you got to study it a lot. But, you know, if you have your two or three things, you're like, this I'm safe on, like, you know, most guys have a spot where fastball is just like, that's not, they're not going to hit it hard if it's there. And it's up and into righties for the most part. And it's, and it's up and into lefties for the most part, or down and away to lefties now, because they're all trying to extend up and away and get that down and in, right? So like Max Kepler, for example, you could throw, I would throw him here and he knows that. And I would just hammer him up and in all day and then try to get him buried. So like it's, you got to, you got, you, you figure out what your stuff does and then you have your, your like go-tos. And then some guys are like the trouts of the world and the, you know, there's one guy on every team that you're like, let's not let this guy hit me, hit, like beat me. So this guy's taking third one out. You know, I'm going to stick to that spot that's the lowest probability early in the count. And if I'm behind, you're going to first. Like, it's such a fun chess match because hitters will do the exact same thing. What pitches produce the highest slugging that this guy has. And we're going to look for that. And where in the zone produces the highest slugging, we're going to look for that. You guys are looking for the opposite. Where does this hitter have the least amount of slugging? Let's go there. And there's that chess match. And you guys have the advantage, obviously, because you have the barriers in your hand. Yeah, yeah. And you were successful more than you. That's very, very, you know, they like 300 batting average 70% of the time, you know, whatever, they, they, that adage always works for that. But, but when you're young, it's all about learning. Yes. Like here guy I've watched actually in real time learn. And it's been really cool because he's a good dude and I like him as Jake Cave. So he has a pitch that he loves to swing at, but he cannot. He doesn't have a lot of experience in and I've seen him over time or not. He doesn't have a lot of like power hitting it. And he knows he needs to get a ball off the wall so he can run. He runs, he's trying to hit doubles and he's got some juice. Hit some homers, not a singles guy, not a soul base guy. So he knows that's what he needs to do to stay. And so the up and in kind of like even up middle, it's just been like, he swings it every time. It's like, I cannot get there enough. So let's make sure it's getting to that outside of the plate because I can hit it. I can go, he has juice to the opposite field and he can pull it. So he's like, let's make sure this is, and that's a Joe Maurer influence, honestly, because they were sitting across each other talking about hitting Joe. Everyone talks about how amazing Joe is. Joe literally figured that out when he was 18. Yeah, he says why he was so special. So he knew exactly what he wanted. So like learning what you want and then you do everything that you talk about keeps you there and it makes you a really good hitter. As you start to say, this guy likes to go here and this is where his, you know, where his strengths are, where he wants to go. And then what he misses, he might go here and here. And if one of, when he misses is in one of your turbo zones, you're looking for that. Because that way you're like, okay, he missed. And that's where I want to hit it. Boom. And then you just, you just, everything else takes over. So it's like, and then when I said guys like Maggie, who could just fell off that, that bastard pitch, he gives himself so many more opportunities to get that pitch. He's going to crush. So those guys, I mean, you're talking about two of the plus hitters. And we're like, but even guys like I struggle with like JD, Josh Johnson, same thing. Like he loves heaters up to his strength plays directly into my strength. And but he like can foul it off. Like other guys can't file it off as much as he just fouls it off. So he keeps getting them when I throw that one that's a little bit lower. You know, but most guys are swinging through the ones he's fouling off. You know, I'll two ways of what we call a bad ball hitter. And he's like, you know, you can hit like Eddie Rosario. Like, what's the real plan against Eddie? Obviously, expanding way the hell out of the zone. But you got to get ahead some point. And so like, you got to find your spots. And there's times where he'll be ice cold on a spot for a month. And then just suddenly up and in is just what he's going to hit out. And it's just like those guys you're, you're just hoping that you're in a situation where a bad miss won't kill you. So it, but it's all about identifying guys. Right. But for the most part, I just have holes or even things they don't want to hit. That was a big thing for like, Krohn Krohn would be like, these are things I don't want to hit. Sure. And he just never saw that. And then he would say for me to do exactly. And you're not swinging at a pitch. You're like, is that where I don't want it? Even if it's a strike is like, I can imagine, dude, I would swing. I play the show and I swing at everything. Like, you know, like I can imagine what that's like. So don't be a hitter, bro. Just you're good at where you're at. Okay. Probably a little too late for you too. Probably a little bit too late. And we saw how I hit in that one time. You have power. I will say that. But the second little thing, and let me touch on technology wise, is the biomechanics measurement systems. So there's a bunch of different ones. I don't even know what they're called to this moment. But basically, their motion capture, they capture where your like important points in the kinetic chain for pitchers and hitters. So like during your swing, like you guys have hip separation to keep your hips back. Same thing. We have hip separation with our arm being back. That's what generates your power. Your hips getting in front of where you are, while keeping your whatever you're going to move back longer. And so we realized through a bunch, through our analyst department that my hips weren't moving at all. But I still had really, really good, like as we got farther closer to my hand, my those points like so it's like chest, elbow and wrist, chest, shoulder, elbow and wrist, I believe. So all these points when they're moving, they were all, they were, as they get farther out, it got to a like hyper elite, like top 99% hand speed. So like you're throwing 95 with no hip separation at all, which means there's more, there's a lot more probably in there. And I'm telling you, we got on a very simple program last year, maybe two months in the season, month and a half in the season. And I was like pissed off because I was pulling everything. And he was like, your core isn't moving with your hips. So let's get the hips moving, and then we'll keep the core strong. So we worked through that progression over two months, I was throwing like average fastball went up two and a half, three miles an hour. So like in July, my average half fastball is like 97.3 or something. Like that's, you're starting to get like up into the elite arms into the, in all of the major leagues at that point, right? Um, three and 98, 99s, even touched a hundred once. Like, you know, as a pitcher touching hundreds, like you got to do it. You want to trophy, you want to put it somewhere. I hit a hundred in my career. I threw a hundred. I don't care if I only did it once. But that helped as well. So all of that combined with the, the plan. So, so my biomechanics got together and I was hitting my spots more. I had the plan. I could do hit the spots. And then my last couple of months of last year were, you know, we're really, really, really, we're, we're me coming into my own. It felt like they were lights out. Yeah. That's actually scary that you just shared that like hitters are watching this being like, how many other guys are going to start using this technology and finding an extra two, three miles an hour? The beauty is it's going to be a ton of dudes like Cody Bellinger, who has incredible hip separation when he swings. And he's not a big strong, he's not that strong. Like he's not like a physically posing person. He just has, he has got that Griffey whip, right? That's one thing Griffey did better than anybody. And it's weird. They didn't know at the time, but he had insane and hip separation and incredible force. And that's why, and then the perfect backspin on balls, like that combination is going to make you the kid, right? So the beauty is hitters, hitters having that opportunity too, because we live in a game of long ball. You're a small dude who doesn't hit many homers. Who knows, you know, maybe, maybe you can generate that force. You can add that, add that the exit below, which turns into hits longterm. I agree with that. Let's, let's, uh, let's break into the highlight. I kind of want to set it up a little bit. This is, uh, in July of 2019, we see the score there, five, four, you got to run around third base and you're facing, uh, Loreano from the A's. And I've watched this a bat. So I know what's going to happen. Uh, we talked about a little bit about tunneling and kind of playing those pitches off each other. This doesn't really show tunneling, but it does show your ability to, um, like you're showing the elite arm speed on this, on some off speed pitches in this, and you can really tell because I see Loreano, we're going to get to the highlight, but we see kind of Loreano get exposed because of it. And that all kind of gets set up by this first pitch here. So let's, let's go ahead and start it. You look mean already. If you're just looking at, got to do that. That's one thing I liked about moving to the pen, man. I, I, my mindset changed a little bit and I really, really enjoy it. Yeah. You have that like, uh, that go to zone in your head. It seems like where you can just kind of turn it on and all of a sudden, cause you're like a nice guy. Yeah. I, I, I like, I'm out there mother, mother, myself the whole time. Like I talk to myself out, out loud and I'm just bought into it. I don't, I don't care. I just do it. I love it. All right. Let's start this up. So yeah, two outs, um, trying to strand this guy. You guys are up by a run. Let's check it out. Important to understand, by the way, there was a, uh, ball pitch pass ball, depending on who you ask right before this has scored the run. Okay. So you're even more pissed. Yes. I'm even more pissed. Okay. So that's a good, uh, you can stop right there. We see now this guy's eight for 14 in this series. So you know he's hot. Great. Yeah. And he's hitting 280. He's a good hitter. He's a good hitter. He's a good player. He is. He's an amazing centerfielder too. So he's really broken out in the last couple of years. He's a good hitter. So you see this, are you being careful here, or are you just saying, I know what to do to get him out. I'm going to go ahead and I know what I need to do. And at this moment, I've decided that it's going to be a strikeout. I'm not going to let this, I'm not going to have this guy on third have the opportunity to score on anything. All right. First pitch here. Now you're going in. Up and in. And that's an important pitch in this at bat. You're going up and in and was that for show or was it like, Hey, I'm going to go in there because it's this cold zone and I want to get a strike or is this setting up? It's more of a setup. It's one of those things like I'm going to either hit this up and in. He's not going to like it very much because it's it's not something that like, he's not going to ambush first pitch two outs down by a run up and in fastball. So my chances of that happening, like, and there being a real damage done are low. And then I also have in my head, if I miss, and this is a, this is a Tyler Clippardism. He picks pitches based on not only his ability to throw it where he wants it, but if he misses that spot, where's he going to miss? And he's not going to get hurt. So I'm like, I'm going to miss up and in even farther. Yes. So worse, worst possible scenario. I'm going to, I'm going to raise him or, or, you know, plonk him and he's just going to go to first. I mean, obviously I don't want to hit a guy, but, you know, like it's not going to score the run. So we don't want the run scored. So you're saying, and I love that. This is a great little tidbit here. So you're saying, I know if I said, if I set my target here, I know where I'm going to, if I miss, I know where I'm going to miss. It's not going to be over the plate. I'm not going to pull it. I'm going to arm side it more, more often than not. So yeah. And I love this conversation because I know what he's feeling as a hitter now you're like, because you're, he was probably looking for a fast ball away there. And, and you got to know too, I had struck out Olson with the guy in second, third on a heater up and away. And then I got a canna on a heater up and away. Okay. For a punchy, both, both of them were above the zone. So he's looking to get you down. But yeah, he's looking to get you down and probably out over the plate and you, and a heater. Yeah. First pitch you go up and in. Now he's like, okay. He's confident in his heater. I was throwing pretty hard that day. So I know that he's, he's looking for a heater probably. He's a two hand swing guy. This is, this is another weird thing I noticed. Okay. Which usually meet like fairly quick hands and he does have quick hands, but extending your hands like flicking a ball oppo is harder. Okay. So like just like flicking something over second. So I'm like, we don't want to stay out of that barrel where he can accidentally hit something somewhere. But he, I'm, I'm out there. I'm like kind of, you can see I'm agitated. I'm throwing lots of heaters. So that's what he sees. And then I throw a first pitch fast. Yes. And now because of that, you know, and this is me thinking this about fastball up and in, I'm going straight back to the heater away here. If I'm a hitter, I'm like, he's going to go back, try to get that first strike. He doesn't want me to, you know, target field kind of plays big to right field. So that's where I'm looking. And now we'll see what you do with this next pitch. Still mean, still looking mean. Nope. You shake or fake shake? I shook. Okay. So now set up a way. 100% not looking for that. That's nasty. Well, if you, if you notice, he's like, heater up and he's inside. He's like, okay, it wasn't a heater. And he got, he got to like, dive out, see if it's a heater up like middle, maybe. And then he's just like, all right, stay in the count. The whole time he still has heater in that first pitch in his mind. So you got that second pitch there for a strike one, one. If I'm him, I'm probably looking for that same pitch. I don't think he is in this particular. Do you see what he's thinking? He heater away again. Like you're 100%. He was just full on it. And it just completely, I'm getting this one. He's like, I'm getting this one. You're going to see his hip go. His hip just goes immediate. And not only he gets it going early, like he's like, 100%. This is a heater away. Yes, exactly. That's the kind of, so like the tunneling aspect of it, you know, although you didn't tunnel a pitch before this, like he's probably expecting this to come out like it did. And it'd be a fastball, but it's not the last two guys also were struck out on that pitch. You can see his hip go. So now he's one too. Now I'm super confident in my slider. And I just like, honestly, in my head, I go eff it. We're going there again. Here comes the hip. Oh, you can see it really well right there. Let's try to get that up again. Because you throw cheese. So you have to be ready for that heater. Yeah, you do. Yeah. I love this slumber right here. Ready, go. I mean, he has no chance on the outer part of the plate when your hip looks like that. Like the best thing he could do like you're saying is flick it over there to right field. But he's a two-handed swinger, which I don't really know how much that really means. To me, it doesn't mean anything, but to you, you're saying you've seen it. But watch where the bat gets to. That's outside of the range of his bat. Yeah, he's pulling off it. And a big reason is his hip went, but he's got to be fully committed to an outside pitch and he's got to throw his hip that way outside of where he normally swings in order to get there. That makes sense. It's not like it's not within his natural ability, within his swing to like flick a pitch off the plate over the first baseman or something. Yes. It's just some guys will like that. That's fine. That doesn't mean anything. It just means he could sell out and do it. I love that you have that option. Not everyone can reach everything all the time. So you got him one, two here. You've seen the hip flay open. You threw two really good sliders in a row. Is there any thought in your mind about doing something different here? There was a slight like, Hey, let's try up and in. But I saw that that was just a bad like that just wasn't a that wasn't a he was not expecting it. And then at one point I was like, I don't either want to be so I look, I go, I want to go up and in and be okay with that or but I'm like, I really just want to say effort and get that slider because I believe I can get it just below the zone down in a way to where it'll be either weakly hit taken or or a swing and miss. And and then a blue casters catching caster just threw down that three. I was like, it's like, why waste a pitch? That's kind of what I think. Yeah, why waste a pitch. And it's one, two and I'm in the driver's seat and I just I just need, I'm 20 pitches in. Like I'm like, let's get this. Let's let's finish here. If you were to go to that fastball up in him, would you lose a little bit of that feel on the slider? Like you obviously are feeling that slider, the arm slot is perfect right now. And you could just go right back to it. But if you were to change and go up and in or with a different pitch, like, is that does that affect that feeling that you just had with those two sliders? Yeah, probably. It'll change your change. It kind of drastically changes your approach a little bit. And so you're like, if especially if I were to miss up and in, then you're like, okay, now it's you to I got to make a really good pitch here. And then if you bury it, then you got to go back three, two, three and you're definitely going to eat her. All right, let's let's check it out. So we know a slider's coming. But now it's you got to locate it again, do the same thing in your mind. If you do that, he's out. And no shake. Love this angle. Oh, I'll throw up, I'll throw away a pause and everyone's on to. I was just going to say, let's see this pause right here. A little Marcus Sherman. A little bit. I also do it to the next at bat, too. Hitter's hate that. Yeah, no, hate it. Even if they say they don't, they do. But let's look at the location of this. You played right off. And I think he even took a little bit off of this pitch miles per hour wise. I think it's about the same. About the same. Okay. I don't I didn't see that, but it kind of looks like it and just spotted up. You're pumped up. Loreanna's like, that wasn't any fun. And I believe that I faced him in Oakland and same, very similar at bat. Maybe not that many sliders, but I got him on. I just started might throw my slider to right that the first time I faced him and I got him on it. And I was like, I like this. And honestly, it's just, it's, it's just a variation of my curveball that lets me throw it harder and breaks a little bit more consistently. We just called it a slider because at the time I threw the curveball too. Now it's a curveball. Love it. All right. Well, I appreciate you walking us through this at bat, talking a little bit about mechanics and technology and mindset. We love educating the young players out there. So we will be back with bat number two with our guide, Trevor May. Trevor, thanks buddy. Yep, problem.