 This is the Vermont House Committee on Commerce and Economic Development. Friday, January 21st at 1.07 in the afternoon. We're here this afternoon to look at bill H406. We have with us Representative Brian Cina, who is the main sponsor of the bill, to walk us through and give us everything that the reasons why you put the bill in and what the bill tends reports to do. And so we're looking forward to that conversation with Representative Cina. So Representative Cina, welcome to commerce. We're glad to have you with us this afternoon. We look forward to your testimony. Thank you. Is there a time range that I'm aiming to stay within so I can pace myself and make sure I deliver the information efficiently? Yeah, you're the only one standing between us and adjourning at three o'clock. All right, that's all I can say though. You have to have a sense of humor when you're talking at a computer so much. So thanks for having me in today. I prepared a slideshow to help keep us on track. To start, I'll say that this bill H406, which is an act relating to promoting racial and social equity and economic opportunity and cultural empowerment, it's a bill that was developed in partnership and on behalf of the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. And the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance, we developed a policy agenda for this biennium that followed the acronym ACT ACT. There's legislation that focuses on the A, acknowledging the history of racism in our state. And we've taken some action around that with the resolution declaring racism a public health emergency, as well as proposal two. C is creating new systems of government. And we've done that this session with H210, which created the Health Equity Advisory Commission. And we're looking at promoting health equity and addressing disparities by creating a new system of government. And the T is transforming existing systems of government. So the bill that I'm going to present to you today, it's part of that work. And you'll see that it acknowledges the history of systemic racism. It suggests creating some new systems of government and transforming some existing ones. So on that note, I'm going to pull up the presentation. And I always, I make the same joke all the time that I hope you don't see my to-do list, because I don't want you to experience vicarious trauma. So this, you should see at this point, the presentation, I'm looking for some kind of head nods that people see. Yes. Oh, and I see it's on the screen in the background. So H406, an act relating to promoting racial and social equity and economic opportunity and cultural empowerment. So there's a lengthy legislative intent section of the bill. It says that equal opportunity is a fundamental principle of American democracy and equal access to economic opportunity and to cultural empowerment are priorities of the state of Vermont. However, structural racism defined as the laws, policies, institutional practices, cultural representations and other societal norms that work together to deny equal opportunity. This structural racism has resulted in wealth disparities and cultural disempowerment among Vermonters. And wealth disparities are a function of not only access to income, but also the ability to have access to land, to property ownership, and to cultural preservation and empowerment, which has been impacted by race, ethnicity, sex, geography, language preference, immigrant or citizen status, sexual orientation, gender identity, socioeconomic status and disability status. And wealth disparities and cultural disempowerment directly and indirectly affect the health and wellness of individuals and communities. We heard recently the governor spoke about marketing and the symbols we use are important, like their marketing. So I incorporate some of that into the presentation. So you can see here that I have the original seal of the Republic of Vermont. So this is like some of the earliest marketing and branding of our state. And it's significant because the roots of systemic racism go back to the foundation of our government. So the foundation of our current economic system was built on land that was taken from a Benike and other indigenous persons such as the Mohican in the south of the state. And the structures of our economic system were constructed with the labor of enslaved persons. And this legacy of settler colonialism and shadow slavery has been modern day systemic racism and discrimination, which is embedded into many aspects of our modern way of life on this land. The relationship between all persons and the land has been used to oppress people over the past few several centuries. The laws and policies of our state and nation severed indigenous persons from their land while denying them black people and other people of color from having the opportunity to access an own land. These actions of the state led to systemic racism that have impacted over monitors who have historically suffered from discrimination. And I list those same elements of the protected status. I'm not going to repeat it all. The actions of the state have led to the erasure and appropriation of culture for the descendants of slaves and indigenous persons. And you can see here I have the seal of the state of Vermont. We went from black and white into color. And so now last but not least, in order to offer repair for the systemic discrimination faced by many persons throughout the state over the past four centuries, the state of Vermont must engage in a just transition to an economic system that systemically undoes racism instead of reinforcing it. And efforts to remedy wealth disparity in the United States have traditionally looked to the free market economy for solutions to the very problem that that economy created. There has been an increased recognition that improving access to economic opportunity and cultural empowerment will require broader approaches. So in order to rectify this history of inequity, we must create economic and opportunity and cultural empowerment using new systems that empower and center Vermonters who have historically suffered from discrimination. And I have our modern branding here because we have an opportunity now to as we rebrand our state to put our money where our mouth is to put actions to words that we need to actually change the systems to align with the Vermont we're marketing and the vision we have for our state. So I'm not going to review this in detail, but there's a very detailed finding section in this bill and that finding section grew. It's out of a body of work. It's a modification of the findings in the health equity bill in the BIPOC land access bill. There was a lot of research by community members that went into these findings. And so what I did here for you is instead of reviewing the findings, I'm providing you with like sort of a bibliography of the findings and people on the committee or the general public can feel free to peruse these findings and learn more about the sources that shaped our findings. And also, I want to thank the committee for taking this into account in your work last year when you looked at our findings, it was brought to my attention, you looked at these findings and you took it into account in your work on, I believe it was H 159, I might mess that up and then it ended up in the budget. So thank you to you all on the committee, especially those of you who advocated that that our research be considered in your decisions. So we thank you, Racial Justice Alliance and Seating Power of Vermont who contributed to this work. So there's two pages of resources you can peruse in all your free time that you might have, which I know we don't, but they're there on the record now for people to look into further. The purpose of the bill, the purpose of this act is to invest in systems of economic advancement and cultural empowerment as a way to move towards greater social and racial equity in wealth, distribution, health, resilience, and economic and cultural prosperity. So how are we promoting racial and social equity in economic opportunity and cultural empowerment in this specific piece of legislation that we've proposed? Well, we add some pieces to existing law. That's the first thing it does. So here we add a fifth principle to the state's economic development principles. So you can see the existing four, but we add in, and maybe I'll read them just because I think it's good to review for the public and to remind us all as legislators what our existing commitment in statutes is that Vermont's business, business's educators, non-governmental organizations in government form a collaborative partnership that results in a highly skilled multi-generational workforce to support and enhance business vitality and individual prosperity. So I notice that it says we have to balance businesses with the people and the individuals, you know, the organizations, the individuals that Vermont invests in its digital, physical, and human infrastructure as the foundation for all economic development. That Vermont state government takes advantage of its small scale to create nimble, efficient, and effective policies and regulations that support business growth and the economic prosperity of all Vermonters. Vermont leverages its brand and scale to encourage a diverse economy that reflects and capitalizes on our rural character, entrepreneurial people, and reputation for environmental quality. So we propose adding a fifth principle that Vermont embraces its responsibility to course correct the historical impact of economic exploitation and exclusion from opportunity due to race and ethnicity for American descendants of slavery and the broader black, indigenous, and other persons of color community. And I just would add that there are other groups that we might want to consider, but this bill was created from the perspective of black people. It was the Racial Justice Alliance, which centers black people, centers American descendants of slavery, and then there's other people of color who work to support our black family. So I want to say that this is has an Afrocentric and BIPOC focus in this category, but your committee should be taking into account all the other statuses I listed earlier in your decisions. That's just what I'd like to add to this, but I don't want to take away from that this bill is a black led and black centered approach. So promoting racial and social equity and economic opportunity and cultural empowerment, we would add to the director of the Office of Economic Opportunities Authorization to allocate available financial assistance for community services agencies and programs for the planning, conduct, administration, and evaluation of community service programs to provide a range of services and activities having a measurable and potentially major impact on causes of poverty in the community or in areas of the community where poverty is a particularly acute problem. And in existing law, we're we're empowering the director to allocate funding in a way that secures and retains meaningful employment for to obtain adequate education to make better use of available income to provide and maintain adequate housing in a suitable living environment to obtain services for the prevention of narcotics addiction, alcoholism, and for the rehabilitation of narcotics addicts and alcoholics. This language could be updated, I would say, if you did choose to act on this, I don't know if your committee would be the place, but that's some dated language that we don't use in the profession anymore. When referring to people with substance abuse challenges. Number six in existing statute to obtain emergency assistance through loans and grants to meet immediate and urgent individual and family needs, including the need for health services, nutritious food, housing and unemployment related assistance to remove obstacles and solve personal and family problems, which block achievement of self sufficiency to achieve greater participation in the affairs of the community to make more frequent and effective use of other programs related to this chapter and to coordinate and establish linkages between governmental and other social service programs to assure the effective delivery of such services to low income persons and to encourage the use of entities in the private sector of the community in efforts to ameliorate poverty in the community and we're proposing we add an 11th authorization, which is to correct the historical impact of economic exploitation and exclusion from opportunity due to race and ethnicity of American descendants of slavery and the broader black, indigenous and other people of color community. Now that's sort of I would say this is T we're transforming existing systems, we're adding to an existing structure. The next section creates a new structure within the existing structure creates the Vermont Department of Cultural Empowerment and Economic Advancement within the existing Agency of Commerce and Community Development and it would work to ensure programming implementation through a statewide cultural empowerment and economic advancement network consisting of four community empowerment centers located in different regions of Vermont and it uses the Vermont Department of Cultural Empowerment and Economic Achievement Grant Fund to design and implement a grant program for qualified organizations and collaborators led by black, indigenous and other persons of color that provides grants to support programming through the Cultural Empowerment and Economic Advancement Network and we put in 10 million as a placeholder number. It would be great to get that much to invest in this but from experience appropriations always you know they have to balance a lot of things and appropriations would or appropriations committee would need to weigh in on this piece inevitably and they often will you know they'll do what they have to do to make something move forward and sometimes that means smaller budget so but we're you know in a negotiation you aim high I should have put 100 million but we have 10 million so we'll see how that goes. So just to summarize this we're creating a new department and giving them a budget to do this work to launch this network. Some of this work has already happened. The Racial Justice Alliance in our advocacy has opened the Richard Kemp Center in Burlington the old north end of Burlington it's a few blocks from my house and already that Cultural Empowerment Center is helping people get needs met mutual aid style through and you know and referring people to resources during the pandemic and it's making a big difference and it just opened so we know other parts of the state deserve this too and they need to be coordinated and so you know we've started this work in Burlington but we'd like to see it extend to all parts of the state so that Vermonters in every corner every you know valley every peak have somewhere within a reasonable drive you know to go to have access to these these resources. So this new department there's a lot of detail here I may not read all this to you because honestly I get winded these days since getting being really sick with COVID and I'm starting to get winded and it's probably a blessing for you anyway because you don't have to hear as much of me so you know we'll just look at the bright side but so aren't you glad you brought me on Friday afternoon so you can we can we can have some fun. Yes of course. All right so I'll keep moving though because I know that I'm the obstacle between you and the weekend although often obstacles can be a stepping stone so we'll think the so this new department would provide cultural empowerment programming and it would involve you know educating people on history contributions of resilience of American descendants of slavery and other BIPOC serve as a resource and facilitate and assist in implementation of cultural commemorations celebrations facilitate various cultural activities serve as a hub for cultural arts you know create community centers across the state for BIPOC to access and just you know build cultural infrastructure which is a major social determinant of health. It would establish the business cultivation and support program which provides small business assistance grants and loans mentorship program technical assistance and small business procurement contract assistance so really giving people some education and help to learn the skills to become more self-sufficient and succeed education is central to to succeeding and not all of us have had access to the same financial education and a little bit goes a long way a little bit of investment in that area really can give people that extra push they need to succeed. Business development so we asked that this department in collaboration with existing pieces of government like VEDA the Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies Vermont Small Business Development Center and other relevant stakeholders we asked that they come together in collaboration design and implement a BIPOC business development program which would increase the number of and provide support to BIPOC business startups provide BIPOC owned businesses with broader access to capital and provide BIPOC owned businesses with technical assistance. We also ask that the secretary so these this just to frame these that these are this is this one is creating I believe it's we'd be creating a new system because we're creating a new program and this one we're we're asked I think we're doing the same thing we're asking an existing system of government to create a new piece to help which would be the BIPOC business procurement program so this is this section is about business procurement and career advancement for people who haven't had equal opportunity for a long time and what we ask is that we would that they increase state government outreach to BIPOC owned businesses for participation in the bidding for government procurement contracts that we provide technical and other assistance to BIPOC owned businesses that seek to participate in the government procurement process that we establish a minimum percentage of state procurement contracts or funding that is awarded to BIPOC owned businesses and we ask that the the secretary of administration and consultation with the racial equity director adopt rules that require each agency and department of the state to implement policies and procedures designed to create pathways for career advancement for current and future employees who are members of BIPOC communities in the state and I can say that in my I've been in Vermont for 20 I'm going on 24 years and I've seen many friends come and go who are BIPOC because they come to live in Vermont and they work hard and they just are not given opportunities for advancement in their organizations that they see other people getting and when people call it out there's retaliation and there's it's not always the formal retaliation it's the informal it's it's that you rub people the wrong way and so many BIPOC out there have heard it's just not a good fit for you but what does that really mean and a lot of times it means that people aren't that people lack cultural humility skills that people don't understand cultural differences that people don't understand that like the status quo is grounded in it's grounded in the dominance of Anglo culture in this state that even impacted Franco and Franco-Americans in this state and Catholics and others quite recently that there was a push during the eugenics movement to eliminate any language used for English in the state so you know there's been a long history of people learning that things are done a certain way and then when people come in with different cultural backgrounds including people from lower socioeconomic statuses and we get a job somewhere when we don't communicate the same as others we're not a good fit and so I think we have to acknowledge that you know education is going to help that but also consciously trying to create ways to just like historically you know I see I saw that a rep has a Dartmouth shirt I went to Dartmouth I have my mug like when I went to Dartmouth there was this network that you could be part of there if you were you know a white male and that even white women didn't have access to where you know they would have corporate recruiting and they you go and they give you all this free food and stuff and court you but if you look at their trajectory a lot of the for example black women I know who worked in finance or marketing in New York City for example don't progress in their job but young white women soar past them white men soar past them still why does that happen you know I think it's we have we have to we have to take that into account recognize that there's cultural influences there so I didn't mean to spend so much time on this but I think it's good sometimes to like give you real examples and I've experienced this myself but not it's not the same degree as it is for darker people there's really a there's a there's discrimination that's based on skin color that gets worse the darker you are so it's just it's reality the first step is being aware of it the next step is us trying to change things so that we can dismantle that systemic racism so last but not least we have continuing education and apprenticeship that the department of labor in collaboration with the state colleges and the Vermont training program within the agency of commerce and community development so design and implement five continuing education and apprentice apprenticeship programs for members of BIPOC communities in the state so once again trying to make some space for people who have fallen through the cracks historically to be provided and equal access to something that many others have gotten before so all of this you know ties into work of this body in my time here since 2017 but it's it started before that but I'm going to speak to my experience and the work of the racial justice alliance that Vermont has made a commitment to dismantling systemic racism so you know in 2017 we acknowledged racial disparities across all systems of state government in act 54 and we committed to quote dismantling systemic racism quote in act nine of 2018 and that's when we hired the racial equity director who's been doing an immense amount of work and we need to consider you know better supporting that office as our current director you know continues that work we passed act 33 last year which created a health equity advisory commission empowered to address disparities and to promote equity in the health care sector and in you know an influenced state policy and appropriations regarding health care we passed jrh 6 last year kind of at the last minute even right it was like the last few days um which declared that quote racism constitutes a public health emergency in Vermont quote and we committed in that resolution to quote eradicating systemic racism quote and we have proposal two coming before us um which was also these are all initiatives that were um that you know developed by the racial justice alliance that proposal two came out of that work where we recognize that although there's a um the story is that Vermont was the first state to abolish slavery that our constitution still allows it and perhaps it's not being practiced um as it was here 200 years ago or in the south 140 150 years ago but it's still in our constitution and if the constitution is the foundation of all of our laws and institutions then it's powerful to prohibit indentured slavery and um indentured servitude and slavery in our constitution so all of this goes together because we are we're acknowledging the harm of our history but we're also making amends we're trying to make things better together and um H406 ties into um that legacy and H406 you know would ask that we um follow through on the commitment we've made and many other pieces of legislation over the last five years to dismantle and eradicate systemic racism and it would do so by promoting racial and social equity in the economic opportunity and cultural empowerment so um there might be some little anecdotes I I forgot that I'll remember during the question and answer because there were some points I wanted to like weave into this but I think that I hit them all I think this would be a good point for me to breathe without talking and and listen to your comments or take questions or and I'll take the slides down for this part that's okay but I can always pull them back up if needed questions for Brian represent Tina Stephanie so Brian thank you I hope you're feeling better uh so last session we passed so as part of act 74 some of this was addressed in act 74 and what and so um pieces so do you feel like we we addressed we addressed some of this in age and and in act 74 right and so what pieces do you feel like aren't well there's some what one of the major pieces that you feel like aren't addressed in act 74 that we should go forward with I'd have to review act 74 in detail to um give you a thorough analysis and answer and I'm happy to do that and get back to you later but I can say that from what I know that um that that that network doesn't exist yet right and that we didn't necessarily like I don't know if you necessarily um changed um the duties of these you know ask these different departments to collaborate the way you know those ways so I'd have to review it honestly there commit there might be a committee member that can answer that better than me because you know you know that bill I I bet representative Moveni Stanek would know even um yeah yeah and the and the contract went out to do it to Curtis Reed's organization I believe to to to do the survey and kind of create pieces of that so the other question I had was um it does and speaking with a lot of people last last session one of the thoughts was uh that Vermont is one of the only states in the country that under the small business administration doesn't have and I don't know if it's wording is correct or not it's a minority business development group or like a minority business arm to it and so there was that thought that maybe we should would would that that Vermont should do the do that the small business administration should expand to to have to have a business group devoted to the BIPOC community in Vermont um any thoughts on whether it should be in state government or it should be a federal organization what are your thoughts on that my first reaction is that the state and federal government both have a responsibility to address the legacy of systemic racism and it's interconnected um it's also good though to not have duplication so I'd probably want you know there's probably some things the federal should do and some things the state should do but I'd need to like you know look more at what the federal government is thinking of doing and like reflect on how that compares to what we're suggesting and like this is a starting point like you know a bill the legislative process is often that you know you introduce a bill it's it's rarely the same thing at the end because it's the start of a process of taking testimony and I think that if you were gonna continue work on this bill I would want to talk with you about additional witnesses to come in and they would probably have expert testimony on some of these details that I don't know because I have my own perspective as a social worker and legislator that a person who runs a manufacturing plant they have a totally different view so or a financial advisor or a real estate agent etc so I guess what I'm saying is that I see this bill as a starting point and I'm hoping that it'll impact your conversations and your decisions on all of your legislation but if you chose to pursue this topic further I think we'd want to really dig into it with some more witnesses because then they could like help us assess like what are some things that really make more sense for the federal government to do and what are some areas where it makes more sense to localize it and have it be state and regional so thanks okay thank you very much thank you Brian that it's very it's an interesting concept and interesting ideas in this I find myself agreeing with many of your goals and even some of your points are extremely well made we had a conversation I have I've been reading lately about wealth gaps and wealth inequalities and there's one great big huge glaring factor for this we want to have workers build wealth and we want to have housing for workers the most obvious way for them to build wealth where most Americans build wealth is to own their own homes um you know you mentioned in the in the bill the gi bill two ways that allowed people to go and build wealth mostly lower middle class people people of all kinds and shapes who had never been able to live in houses that they owned up until that they were able to get an education through the gi bill and it's important to note that only like two to three percent of the african-americans who came back to the gi's the black gi's came back to take advantage of that but more importantly it was through the home ownership the mortgages that were created to help the gi's that built 11 towns and developments all over mostly starter homes this is how that whole generation that greatest generation are my parents were able to go and build wealth um you know I look at um my father's a good example he lived in new york city all of his life he moved from apartment to apartment all the time which tells me he probably didn't pay the rent but what they did is when he was in his 30s and came back as a vector he was able without nothing more than a ninth grade education to borrow money and get out get a forward uh paid crowd in new jersey and a development and eventually sold that house at a profit by a bigger house I mean he was a longshoreman from the waterfront in new york I mean he didn't make a lot of money and what he was able to do is build a three by a three bedroom raised ranch and then eventually 25 years later to move and use that as his nest egg to move to florida and and that was his nest egg to retire so there is um there is a history of this for a whole generation and of course the african-americans the black people who came back as gi's and maybe other ethnic groups they were redlined they couldn't buy those levitown houses I mean this was a real disservice it was blatant discrimination and that wealth gap we talk about today a lot of it comes from that because people like my father were able to go and get home equity loans to help pay for college education and a whole lot of other things he actually had a little bit of an inheritance it was much but it was something and um so what I see here is that in vermont we're spending tens of millions tens of millions of dollars every year to go and find fund trust housing trust funds and housing apartment conversions and and redo buildings to have apartments but they're not not helping anybody get it for you know affordable housing but between that and forever affordable they're never able to get and build any equity or be able to go out and get their own home and build something and we've got examples all over vermont there's you know everything in south brolington and every large town has got houses from the 50s and 60s early 60s that are ranch houses and very good starter homes and um when you're looking at worker worker housing you're looking at mid-level housing the missing middle or starter homes that's the kind of thing that we need and I think we have some built-in barriers here that you don't mention in your in your bill but I think it's important to recognize we have actually 50 land conservation efforts that have included barriers to this I mean it's impossible to build a development the kind of thing even a small development that people were able to go and buy those out and you can't build anything you can't afford to build anything but these McMansions which don't really help anybody um and I think part of the wealth disparity we have is this is because you know this terrible discrimination from the 1940s and 50s and early 60s and um you know it's it's something that's really important and I don't disagree with a lot of the issues you're raising because this would help build would help raise everybody up regardless of their racial or ethnic or or cultural background you know you mentioned the eugenics movement there was a lot of people who were discriminated against in the eugenics movement you know if you weren't the old stock you weren't worthy of being here and so I think that um that that's something that that I see as is that we really have to help do this across all people I mean I don't know if you need 10 million dollars in government programs but you certainly do need you're addressing an issue that I think is important but you know act 250 needs some work it's 50 years old and I'm not sure it's I'm not sure it's being applicable to the things that you're trying to talk about but I do think it is applicable to that and I'd like to hear what your what your statement on that is yeah I appreciate that I appreciate your acknowledgement of the the changes in opportunity that have happened across generations because my grandparents were immigrants and they were able despite all the racism and challenges they were able to in you know we a large extended family living in one home or whatever but we were able to like get a house you know like they were able to get a house that and so I grew up in a house with grandparents uncles aunts you know brothers sisters and we all you know we had a bunch of disabled relatives and we all just took care of each other but like my grandparents couldn't eat they were able to get that house because of what you just said the economy was structured different than now you could you could get a master's degree and be a professional and never be able to own a home most people my age cannot afford that I know cannot afford to own a home and I only own my home because my landlady and landlord didn't want to sell out to they had seen my neighborhood be sold out over the years from family homes to like investment properties and they they didn't like that so they worked with me over the course of years to like make it so I could own a home it's like I all the obstacles I had to face I won't even get get into here but like I'm so privileged that I had a landlady and landlord that cared about people about exactly what you were just saying they want to see a new generation of opportunity and they wanted to pass this property that meant something to them to someone who would care for it and not just sell out and make the profit but that's rare and there's so many policies I think we could look at like that might affect that and I think the other thing is I sent the whole body a letter and a plan that you probably didn't see because you get swamped with emails see if you're interested you can go back and search for it it's called a hope for just recovery I think that's what the the subject line was and I talked about ideas related to this and one of them is that we need to consciously plan and develop a complex and diverse continuum of housing options and it's got to be everything from like shelters and homeless encampments and places where people when people arrive in the state low barrier access but then offering people a wide range of housing options supportive housing social housing where they you know that's that's run by the land trust and it's permanently affordable but furthermore we need more rent to own and more like more housing that people can afford to buy and live in like what you were just saying like we should be developing that and the obstacle you bring up is very real the way we've structured the economy is that housing is a commodity so when someone's building housing they want to make money that's that's this it's a free market economy that's where we live in so we but then we created all these rules and regulations that are creating a it's it's sort of if people want to make a profit then they have to charge a lot more and then now the construction expenses are even higher because of materials issues so like we're really like facing a difficult situation and I would and this goes straight away from this grant but in that in that letter I sent you all I say that we should create a fast track to redevelopment but that those redevelopments we should start with the state municipalities doing it to set an example so designating some government land like for example the Windsor farm or Burlington the Sears Lane plot that homeless people were just evicted from redeveloping some state land with a set of criteria and and then saying to private developers if you do what we're doing you can do it like like do it go do that and we could have a discussion over the next year about what are those criteria and they could include everything from preserving permanent affordability building equity for for working families so they can retire because like that's a dream that many people my age can't have right now like I'm probably going to have to work till my 70s if I'm lucky you know and so um and that's and being a frontline healthcare worker I don't know how I'm going to do that but we'll we're taking it day by day but my point is giving more opportunities a wide spectrum of opportunities for people to build equity and to have affordable housing um and if so if we had criteria tied to that then I would support fast tracking private development where you know they could have some luxury units to make their money mixed with a wide range of units so we're also bringing people of all different backgrounds together to live in a community together because that also makes the community richer not when we segregate poor people and work you know the sort of like factory workers and then like the wealthy live in McMansions what really makes community stronger is when people from all different backgrounds share space and build community together so I don't know if that's helpful but I I hear you on the Act 250 thing and I would support a fast track if it met like criteria that include racial social equity or climate action goals and affordability et cetera you know so that's my thoughts and if people want to read more about it I did send you all an email so I know there's more questions so I'm I don't know if you have more to say but I just said enough I think I'd just like to add you need water and sewer convert you know real water and sewer to keep keep things you can't do it without that don't have that so the so we have an opportunity now to really invest in the infrastructure of the future and I think we also we shouldn't just build what we need now we have to be real we want more people to come to Vermont like I think a lot of us want that like the governor said I want that I like when new people move here I like when people come back home after they go away there's nowhere for them to live right now there's places for people to work but they're not necessarily the right jobs for them some of them are some aren't but there's nowhere for people to live and even if they can get housing they can't afford to live in Vermont so um I do think we need to uh to take that into account in our planning because it shouldn't just be like what are the units we need now but like you know how much more do we want down the road how many refugees are we going to get as climate change hits it's going to happen we could build an arc in Vermont we could build we could prepare for a million people one day you know we could be like how do we house and properly take care of a million and everyone's contributing everyone's guaranteed a job food housing you know a social safety net that works we could do that at this point in history if we're if we you know create solutions together that are intersectional that meet multiple goals at once and I think there's a place for act 250 to be modified if the development is working towards that that's I guess that's sort of I think we we have some agreement on that issue I don't know if you agree with everything I said but I agree with you that act 250 and development criteria should be looked at um and modified to move us quicker to the vision of what we of the housing continuum we need so we straight a little bit from the bill but it's it's relevant it's germane thank you thank you mr chair hi representative Tina welcome again to commerce um I one of the things that I really like about this bill I read it when it was first introduced when we were working on that element of h 159 159 turned into an omnibus economic development bill so they're the one piece of it and then it eventually did go into the budget but the one piece of it that h one h 406 helped to inform some of the beginning thinking I want to emphasize beginning thinking is that just in terms of the the piece that that the bill talks about around better cultivating and supporting by pop businesses is a big there's a big gap in Vermont and it became clear after the 2020 economic relief grants that went out from the feds through the state that the state of Vermont really doesn't have an established um regular relationship or even knows or keeps track of where the BIPOC businesses are in the state let alone understanding regional variations a BIPOC owned business in burlington has very different needs and realities than say one in Newport um and so I really appreciate how this starts to really name some some of the little pieces of that conversation we started last session around the need for technical support and I would add very responsive technical support that understands language access access issues and understands and recognize different ways of bookkeeping that different businesses use um uh more informal which is not even the race-based thing it's like there's informal business um practices and more formal ones and just providing technical assistance so that we can be moving resources um to really support the economic well-being of of these businesses um especially BIPOC folks um I think I think that part of the bill is really built off of that conversation again and I um I mean and I think this committee knows we we need to do more there and that's why we we earmarked $150,000 to really dive more deeply into understanding what we don't know um I also personally think that the state of Vermont as you said earlier I agree has a responsibility to do better in this realm but also to undo decades centuries of um of really uh creating barriers and roblox to the economic well-being as Representative Dickinson was saying of BIPOC people in this state um and and the fact that there's a real impact when people don't have generational wealth and if we're talking just about businesses that's a much bigger topic but businesses if you don't have generational wealth you don't have down payments for things you can't open you can't even get loans or have collateral and whatnot there's such a ripple effect throughout generations and when you look at today and in the off session I met with a lot of businesses which are a lot there are a lot of BIPOC owned businesses in my district and in the old north n area and um even in Winooski and this is a big thing today where people don't have capital to be able to buy the commercial stove or to um expand their business even a little bit so they could hire a little bit more help because there is not a dedicated source of um capital that is earmarked that they have a fighting chance of accessing and then um I think not to keep going on but there's like implicit bias and lending and there's other pieces that we really have to recognize and name and if there's a role the state can play and there is a role the state can play I think that's really where we have to start exploring so not so much a question but I really appreciate that piece of it in particular around talking about access to capital and technical assistance and naming this contributes to generations of the racial wealth gap that have developed over the years so thanks for being here thanks Paul thank you Mr Chair uh thank you representative Gina for the presentation I very much appreciate it um so I did kind of want to echo a little bit of what Emma said I think um you know talking about technical assistance and talking about just assistance in general for BIPOC owned business is important I'm sure you remember or maybe especially Brian and Emma on this call you know being from the Burlington area may remember an incident on church street or with the church street business recently um where the gentleman had tried to open a restaurant bar or club or lounge or whatever it was and there was a lot of mockery going on around the internet um it was clear when I watched those videos and and and read up on it on social media that this gentleman really was at heart an entrepreneur um and really wanted to work hard and really wanted to make that business successful but it was just very clear that the resources weren't there for him and he didn't have the knowledge he needed to execute um you know his plan so he had leased the property he had been in the property um and he had run into fire safety issues he had run into health issues and didn't understand health code um but it was it was very sad for me to watch that and see that situation unfold because being an entrepreneur myself and a minority myself I knew and know that you know resources and access to technical help and navigating these types of systems are scarce so um what I'm getting at with that story and sharing that is I really love the technical piece of this as well and and being able to to allow BIPOC folks and entrepreneurs in the BIPOC community to take advantage of those resources and have a place to go um I would argue that those resources are scarce for all people in the state um which is a special reason even to to provide those those special resources to that community um the other thing I would want to add and and I would really like to echo Lynn's statement uh definitely on the same wavelength uh with Lynn being in the real estate industry myself I know that you know the key uh to wealth really is home ownership and I'm wondering maybe more of a statement or a question or a suggestion I'm not sure what exactly it is but I would love to see uh you know a piece of that 10 million dollars dedicated to uh a down payment assistance program for BIPOC community members or maybe even a closing cost um assistance program for BIPOC community members um because that would really make home ownership much more achievable we still run into the same inventory issue but we get rid of at least one barrier that is a tall barrier for people and and I don't know if that's an option in this bill um to be added to it I don't know if it's been thought about but it's definitely something that I think about and I could see um I could see some real moves being made with a program like that in terms of getting people uh into housing um I think that's it yeah I think those are my statements and questions thanks well I it's I'm glad you um the the thing that's freshest on my mind is the last thing you said because there's a bill right now um that is being um reviewed and considered by House General um called H 273 and it specifically looks at land access and property ownership like racial and social equity and and what we propose in that bill and that bill was developed by a coalition of BIPOC community members um that it proposes that the state create a board that would be given a fund to invest in a variety of ways to support um or to address equity issues and property ownership and land access and some of those ways would be exactly what you just said possible grants for down payment assistance or closing costs financial education programs for people um mutual aid because if if people of color are moving to an area where there's not a lot of other people of color sometimes it takes a while for people to get support from that immediate community and having mutual aid around the state to support people while that grows those relationships build is important um there's other aspects but the premise is that the state would give a group give a board made up of the impacted community money to develop criteria and a process for distributing those funds so that people can build wealth and it's both collective and individual so it doesn't just have to be owning your own home it could be that a bunch of people want to get a farm together and and start a home business you know there's flexibility there um but I would encourage people to check out that bill um and if you have you know opinions about it to talk to house general because they are going to be hearing more witnesses um also speak back you know you were talking about that technical assistance piece and um it goes back to education and if we look at the social determinants of health um education is one of them the more education people have the better they do um even if it even if everything you learn doesn't apply to every situation like there's plenty of things I learned in college that I barely use but every now and then I'm like oh that's useful and the process of learning and and and and you know learning about stuff and talking about stuff and sharing like that the um becoming comfortable with education is is something that many people aren't because of the horrible experiences they had in our education system so we really need to be thinking like about lifelong learning and how do we create like sort of low threshold access to all kinds of education um you know every possible you know creative way um so this you know this if I look I'm looking at a list of social determinants of health from the world health organization education is one of them but this bill would also look at housing basic amenities in the environment it would look at social inclusion and undiscrimination and really significantly structural conflict structural conflicts of social determinant of health it results from conflict people have with the system you know and and like a lot of us I mean I guess I can't speak for you all but because I see the world through my eyes but like my whole life has been structural conflict on many levels and and it wears me down it's like exhausting and you know I've had access to things that many others don't and advantages that many others don't despite the disadvantages I have and so the more aces you have the adverse child experiences the more trauma you have the you know all of this accumulates and and affects our health outcomes it affects our quality of life and so I just think it's important to be thinking about the social determinants of health and everything we do and your committee has a lot of influence on the social determinants of health um if you look at the list um of of you know your jurisdiction so I guess I just coming back to what you were saying I think in general we should be looking at how to create more opportunities for education um financial education and other kinds of education for all Vermonters and we need a really diverse we need to build that continuum of housing so that it would be great if there was a way that even someone who receives assistance was building equity like I don't know if that's legal but if the state's paying rent for someone to live somewhere what if we were paying for someone for a family to own a home over time you know supplementing that and then maybe the grandchildren will be in a completely different position for the first time in maybe eight generations you know so we we could do that if we if we if we bring our heads together and stay focused on that goal so I guess I I appreciate your points and um hope we can keep talking more about it and I would encourage you to check out the BIPOC land access bill because it it's one approach to what um you were suggesting Representative Martin so thank you I don't know if I answered all your points but I but um I'm happy to answer any other questions you or others have I I think you did thank you Charlie yeah thank you Representative Chana for coming in we've got a couple of points coming up in the near future with the study that we authorized actually the contract that was awarded in October to Curse Reed's organization we're due for a report in February on that I'm not sure where it is yet but February 15th is when it's due to the committee recommending really a structure for a BIPOC business community and how to best look at some of those discrepancies with how BIPOC businesses have access to capital or to property and so we're looking forward to that piece and the other piece and I think you would agree is we don't have really good data and that data is that we haven't tracked businesses by who owns the business in terms of their race or ethnicity and so the secretary state has embarked on that but we don't yet have that data so I'm hoping that we have that so we can really get some kind of measurements in place and be able to identify how do we communicate and so those are those two data points that were in the bill last year and I think I think you would agree I don't know uh to say that those are steps in the right direction I do and I think we know we introduced this bill last year before that study was conducted so of course you know the legislative processes we're always trying to take the latest info and and take that into account and honestly what we do this year in three years we're going to have to look at it again because the world is changing fast the economy is changing fast and like especially with like the impact of climate change and how that's going to drastically impact life and migration patterns and the global economy and you know that some of you are used to me talking about this artificial intelligence and how artificial intelligence is going to rapidly change how we define work during many of our lifetimes and you know we're taking some action regarding a state level use of AI but there are some recommendations from our AI task force that didn't make it into the bill coming out of house energy and technology because they didn't fit that actually fit in your committee so I am I'm going to introduce a short form bill that just lists those recommendations so I'm happy to talk with you all more about that but I just want to put that out there that we really need to be looking at all of the reports and studies and taking them into account and I think there's a lot that um we are going to learn from that study and so I'm hoping that um you know the data and results of that study can inform your work on this bill or any actions you take related to this topic. Thank you. Another question. Brian you had um I think one of the last points you made was um for education and um apprenticeships and they're specific I mean I'm having a hard time understanding what apprenticeships you're looking for are they new ones or I I guess I I'm not understanding it because we have apprenticeships so um we don't we don't specify what they should be in so you know this is me weighing in without checking in with the other members of the of the racial justice alliance who helped shape this policy um and and I'd be happy to um you know I'd be happy to make space for them either today or another time for you to hear their opinion on this but when I read this language what I think is we would probably entrust the department of labor and the state colleges and the you know those the Vermont training the Vermont training program to maybe assess what should these five things be for example um I know that in the trades um historically they were male dominated but in the last 20 years there have been efforts for to get women involved in the trades and now there's a lot more women doing the trades and they're um I know the women's there's a women's small business development program in Burlington or in Vermont I know a lot of people in Burlington who used it but like that really helped a lot of women start businesses so like I would say that these five programs should we should probably pick look at the state's priorities and look at where there's a deficit and try to target them there if I had to just pick like if based on what I know I would think we should look at year-round regenerative agriculture and BIPOC you know farms and workers on farms but also ownership of farms and agriculture I would pick construction health care those are some things and education those are some things that immediately pop up to me when I say education I mean child care too like cradle the grave you know like like more opportunities for people to training the trainers you know the ideas that were training people to train people so we're just building community competency that's just my initial response I would defer to them to to the department of labor and the state colleges to really come back to us and maybe you know maybe this section could be improved by giving them some guidelines you know like saying what I just said like maybe they look at the reports and they do an assessment something I I feel strongly about is that we need to think regionally because the state just imposing things on every region doesn't always make sense and I'd like to see us work more with the regional planning commissions to really be assessing because there's I think 11 regional planning commissions looking at each of those regions looking at the strengths of the economy looking at the gaps looking at how to build circular economies like how do we attract businesses that could use the waste of one business right next door so like you know maybe like you know the wood is milled here and the wood chips go here to be used and then the wood goes here to build something you know so I think like another piece might be trying to work with regional planning commissions to determine like in different areas of the state where might we want to invest in education and apprenticeship programs and then trying to encourage trying to spread them out to where they're needed so that's just another thought I have about it but I would defer to them and maybe defer to you to think about you know how what process would you want them to use and also I think that we'd want to hear from other members of the racial justice alliance like I would want to go talk with them and maybe have like Mark Hughes or Wilder White or Ashley LaPorte or others come in and share their perspective too um so that's my response to that um it'll probably evolve as I think about it more but that's my initial response yeah but it so it sounds more like more outreach better outreach than creating a new apprenticeship program for something different you know I mean we have all kinds of apprenticeship programs now sounds to me like that we need we may need to do better outreach for the BIPOC community to make sure that we're pulling that we're pulling members of that community in as well as all the other yeah I think so and perhaps that's where we start is we try to make what we have work better while we figure out what we need and I think in general that's the case like the the needs of the workforce is going to change so much like on the AI task force we learned about milking robots and about how that's changing farms in Vermont and we learned about you know how AI is going to change healthcare and it's happening quickly so I bring it up again because that really is one of the major drivers I think that we need to be thinking about like we're going to need to be nimble like every few years we're going to want to be changing and and it's going to be I think increasingly normal for people to have many careers in their life and to you know I did this thing when I was young but we don't do that anymore so now I do this thing and you know and maybe when we retire it's like you know I don't have to like beat myself up anymore and work 60 hours a week but I can do 20 hours a week doing this other new thing you know that I think flexibility is going to be important as we move ahead so yeah I think starting with making what we have now work better for sure as we figure out what we need and then we're just going to keep needing to we just have to accept that like everything we do is going to change and it always has and it always will I think it's like the nature of the space time continuum but yeah it makes sense other questions for representational so if you could provide us with a list of people that you would suggest that we talk to I've already talked with Mark had some conversations with him and certainly want to have him in but I'm sure there's others that are you know part of this whole process and we want to understand the thinking behind it because you know just the words that we looked at just what what I just brought up you know the words just looking at it seems to me that we need to start we needed to start a whole new apprenticeship program but I think it's more of more inclusivity of bringing people in making sure that people know what's going on I think there's a lot of there's a lot of education outreach technical assistance that needs to be done in order to assist everybody because I think the whole I mean I think this committee is committed to making sure that every Romano they want to work can work and that every Romano who wants to start their own business can do so and that the assistance is there the technical the ability to be able to get into government and find out what I need here what kind of licenses do I need and you know that's being built now in the Secretary of State's office with the business portal so there's a lot of things that are going on that I think take a lot of time but we need to make sure that everybody is included yeah I agree um and uh you know you said you'd like some witnesses I I'll talk with the Racial Justice Alliance and come up with a list um something I'll just throw out there initially is besides hearing from members of the Alliance who worked on our policy I think hearing from BIPOC financial advisors real estate agents small business owners corporate because there's there's BIPOC who work in every part of the economy already there's BIPOC farmers making an opportunity to hear from people in these different sectors what's working and not working would be useful and just creating that space um so you know I can help you create that list but you could also think about who do you know in your communities all across the state you know if you think about who owns the businesses in your area are there any BIPOC business owners that you could engage with and learn from them what's working and not working regionally and then how that can they connects to state policy um but but I think the more we hear from the better the richer the decision will be so I see another hand and I would say not just business owners but if we know people that are working and and you know working in the trades or you know working as cashiers or whatever that if we can touch base with people to understand what their struggles are and how they they differ from you know they may differ from from other people's struggles that we can make those changes yeah and I also think how it intersects you know um that you know if you come from a lower socioeconomic status and your BIPOC and your LGBTQ or you have a disability it accumulates and that you have more challenges and so I think understanding how many of us have intersectional identities um so I appreciate that your sentiment I think it's good to go beyond business owners I think bringing both organized and unorganized workers into the conversation is important um empowerment is an important way to address the structural conflict I mentioned earlier and the more we can share power and disperse power and empower people to make you know have more um more personal choices and more personal opportunities personal responsibility um and and more knowledge and skills like the stronger our society is so um I'll always support bringing more voices in and I appreciate um that you took it beyond the business owners I agree Emma thank you Mr Chair um and and Brian to your point about how important regional our regional approaches I think is really important even in the um when we start to think about additional witnesses to bring in so we've talked earlier today about the Vermont professionals of color organization which has really been stood up this last year or so and so those are not just business owners those are professionals in all public and private sector BIPOC identified and I think that would be a really a very um important voice to hear and some of their members perhaps they they're growing statewide but maybe to really help us um make connections in different parts of the state because folks are experiencing very different things um depending where they are in the state um and uh yeah so I just wanted to make sure that we've that that organization was brought back into the mix thank you a good suggestion other questions representative Gina you you get it you you've got us out 45 minutes earlier so you get the gold start today uh thanks I have to go to my committee I feel a little negligent but this is important and I um I appreciate the discussion we've had I you know it means a lot that we're giving it means a lot to me and others that um we're giving space to this um and I hope that we can continue to um create space for this discussion and to bring more people into the discussion so I see another hand I thought it was safe yeah real quick I just want to say that we had a meeting yesterday with the educational people uh from north country uh CTE from state colleges they gave a really good presentation um I'm sure you're you touched on a whole bunch of stuff that they touched on actually uh and the chairman just asked about I would suggest you go and look it up it was yesterday's um meeting on it again because my committee chair texted me and it totally distracted me um it was yesterday's testimony on what it was on education for workforce development and I included okay yes and it would be really worthwhile for you to watch it to address some of the issues the chair just raised recently I'll watch your presentation I'll watch it in bed tonight no I'm kidding um I will watch it at some point if I'll I'll take let me write it down though because if I don't put it on my to-do list I probably will forget it um but I'll check that out okay thank you Wednesday I think it was Thursday morning okay um I don't see any other questions so uh representative thank you very much it was a great discussion this afternoon I appreciate you uh coming in to to talk to us and to present H406 to us and um if you can get those uh those names to cameo and your earliest convenience that would be great and uh we'll see um time is time is not on our side this year so we will do our best to see what we can advance this year but we appreciate we appreciate you bringing this to us thank you and I will send in my slides for the record right now and I'll try to get you that list next week like early next week maybe Monday sounds good all right thank you have a good weekend everyone