 All right, everybody. We are live welcome to lightning round with Laura I am your host Laura Reeves from the pure dog talk podcast those of you who are unfamiliar with the podcast we have Over 500 episodes. We talked to the legends of the sport and We give you tips and tools to have a better life with your pure bird pure bread dog. So very very excited to be Starting these live podcasts this year 2022 debut Lightning round with Laura. We had one last month. We had a special guest drop by then We have another special guest who's going to drop by tonight. So I'm very excited you guys this is a Ask me anything opportunity so live chats there for you and We will have lots and lots of good conversation One of the things that we wanted to talk about this month was mentoring We just had a conversation about this on our pure dog talk patrons group And so for those of you who are not members of the patrons group, this is an amazing opportunity unbelievable community This is a Sort of the NPR of dog dim, right? So you have the opportunity to support the inner workings of the podcast and for as little Donation whatever you want to make five ten twenty whatever you can do each month You get to be a member of the patrons Facebook group and this group of people has developed into an extraordinary community and we have the after dark once a month where we sit around and talk dogs and Have a little adult beverage. It's great fun So you are welcome. You can find the become a patron button on the pure dog talk comm website Whenever you want to find it always remember to support our sponsors Troupanian and embark are Huge huge advocates for our work in as dog breeders and impure red dogs And so I think it's really important that we remember who makes it so we can do some of the fun stuff, right? And we support them in return for their support of us Okay Your passion Is our purpose are you ready? All right, let's go So mentoring mentoring is something that people talk about a lot um And oh, hey hang on just half a second Welcome to lightning round with laura. Who's on the call today? This is Marty Greer You guys I told you we had a really cool guest Dr. Marty Greer who um anyone who has listened to a pure dog talk podcast in the last uh five years has heard dr. Marty Greer's veterinary voice column if you will her her standing monthly um conversation with us about I really truly incredible information made available by one of the top veterinarians in the country to everyone of our listeners So Marty, welcome to lightning round. How you doing? This is so fun. I'm here. Isn't it great. I love it Hi, I we have um guest audience people dropping in and typing in the live chat Marty So I will I you can't see that but I can so I'll share that with you as we go Yes, stacey. We have dr. Greer Annette. Welcome. Thank you for joining us And I'm so glad that you enjoy the podcast and I cannot tell you how many notes and messages and emails and all kinds of things I get from people That tell me that literally um marty greer's podcast on x y or z topics save their dog's life So we are super lucky and I appreciate your time marty And hi hi everybody. Yay. Oh my gosh marty. You're talking on the phone and in the live chat. Damn you are like You are absolutely the multitasking queen. I love it Okay, you guys so If you've got questions for for marty or for me Pop them in the in the chat. Meanwhile Marty talk to us a little bit about your thoughts about mentoring and how You were mentored as a baby veterinarian and how you help mentor other baby veterinarians in your practice Oh, wow, that's a great question Um, I love mentoring the baby veterinarians. Um, and it's been really fun We've been very fortunate that over the last few years in particular That the serogenology Departments at many of the veterinary schools are sending students veterinary students to it. Awesome. So that's been a real class Missouri loves us. Minnesota sends us students. Auburn sends us students Who your practice in wisconsin, right? Yeah, I guess in for two to four weeks And it's it's really been a blast. Um, because they do as much for us as we do for them They come in with fresh ideas and fresh faces and you know, all the stuff that they've been taught and then We I tend to assign homework every day I give them at least one homework assignment and we challenge it a little bit And it's just been really fun to have these students. Um They they really they really bring a new perspective to the Things they do every bit as much for me as and the practices we do for them So it's it's fun and it's exciting and so if any of you have veterinary students or even Students that aren't thinking about veterinary medicine They're welcome to come and stay with us. I have a place for me to sleep and stay and I have to pay for hotel rooms Um, they have to get here and get back, but gosh, otherwise I'd love to have them You know what marty? I think I want to pick up on something you just said because I think it's actually when we talk about mentoring No matter what no matter what area whether it's veterinary medicine or dog training or dog handling or dog breeding or what have you The mentoring relationship is by street Right like I help teach someone how to show Their dog or present their dog better and they help me learn Something about their breed or about their dog or I learn a trick from what worked and what didn't with that dog, right? Right right Absolutely, they bring a fresh a fresh perspective and they look at things with with new eyes and we're like, oh, you know what? We never thought about it that way before So it's been really fun But I also make them do things that they're like they think it's kind of stodgy and I say, okay So I want you to do this tonight. I want you to go home and I want you to start a spreadsheet And they go, okay And I say I want you to put on the spreadsheet all the procedures that you've seen done or Been a participant in Because a year from now five years from now you're going to have someone that looks at you and says Well, how many of these have you done and you can pull up your spreadsheet If you keep it current you can pull up your spreadsheet and say well, I've done 362 c sections and mark my words people are going to go Oh So you know what you're doing Go do it instead of saying. Well, I'm sure now I started practicing in 1981 There were no computers There were no spreadsheets. We did have notebooks. So I could have written it down But it never occurred to me. No one ever pointed out to me This hopelessly obvious bit of information. So So After I've been in practice 27 years. So this was 14 years ago. I had a client in my practice And I said to her in the exam. She was an airdale breeder She had an airdale that I thought needed a perfection and I said to her your dog needs to go to surgery She needs a perfection and she needs it now And she kind of screws up her face and she stands up and she's nose to nose with me and she says How long you've been doing this? And I said 27 years And she said no, no, no, no. How long you've been doing this? and I said ma'am 27 years And she says, okay fine. Do the c-section Well, we saved all the puppies because that was pretty cool. Yes, you would do that a lot But unless you have that spreadsheet, so this goes for any this isn't just veterinary This is anything you guys do whether it's litter evaluations or championships or What are the puppies? Start keeping track of it because it's so valuable. Yes And and it goes back to you know, every time you have a litter of puppies take take photographs of them the day they're born Yes, do all four views front Back each side Do it every two weeks keep track of it Just keep track of this stuff and you're going to have oodles and oodles of pictures So put a photo, you know, put a put a card on the photo of you know, yellow girl Right who and who and what day it was blah blah blah. It's easy to do But gosh, you know that kind of data is unbelievably valuable when you start going backwards in time Right and what I think of is the pictures that I've taken over the years Right at 25 years of breeding this particular line. I mean, you know what I'm talking about you have that in the corgis And and so I have my stacked pictures at six and eight weeks And I can look at those and I know what that dog turned into right. I know How it turned out it was number one or it was somebody's lovely pet, right And and I can say here's this puppy at the same age with this same basic pedigree And This is what it looks like. It's either going to be, you know, very successful or somebody's lovely pet But you have that background knowledge and understanding that I think is absolutely invaluable Yeah, so you can't take too many pictures. You can't take too many notes You can't have too many spreadsheets or notebooks or whatever you want to keep a track of Now I have one client and this was probably ten or eleven years ago. We did this She had a c-section and there was a single male puppy in the litter And we got finished with the c-section and I went out to do my Evaluation of the puppy to make sure his heart sounded okay And he didn't have a clothes palette and all the stuff and so I stacked him on the table The exam table and she grabbed her phone and she took a picture and she posted it on facebook and within seconds A friend of hers in sweden had seen the picture and facebook messaged her back That puppy went on to win the national wow in his brief Wow two years of age So I now charge extra just you know extra for my c-sections where I stack your puppies at one hour of age No, you don't Yes, I do. No, I guess you're right. I don't But it's really it's really funny, but you'd be surprised what you learned from looking back at those pictures So, yes, we really did stack it and yes, she really did put it on facebook and yes, he really did win the national I'm not joking about that at two years of age that dog really won the national I know exactly who it is And if I said his name a lot of people on the call wouldn't know who he is But I'm not going to do that But Just remember that I mean that's the story that I want you to carry around in your head the next time You have a litter of puppies that you had dr. Greer said to do this And this is why because you're going to find that information to be unbelievable And and this is actually an idea that I stole from Carmen Battaglia And that's to have your puppy party when the puppies are a year old have a puppy party Um, and it doesn't have to just litter of puppies. Invite all your people back with their puppies Have it at some place that you can have dogs that you know They can have a big area to roam around in whether it's indoors or outdoors someplace fenced of course if it's outdoors And look at your puppy So you're not just getting a christmas card from them with a picture of a headshot in the family portrait But see their temperament and see how they move and all of those things see how that coat really turned out What did that mouth do right? Exactly and you would be stunned at how valuable that information is I still have a picture of my daughter's burning mountain dog litter that 20 years ago And it's so cool to look back at that picture and see all of the puppies all together at one year of age on their birthday And it's just it you know, it doesn't cost you anything to buy some broths and some buns and some chips And have a little party It's just it's so important that you keep track of this information And then have somebody at the puppy party that's got a camera That's just taking pictures all over the place because you're going to be chatting with all the people that are there And you're not going to be focused on taking photos and taking videos But have a friend that's willing to just grab their phone and video take this stuff photograph this stuff It's unbelievably valuable So this has nothing to do with veterinary care and everything to do with just general dog information Being a dog breeder and and here's the thing about it. Marty you bring invaluable experience as a dog breeder As well as as a veterinarian, which is why you make a particularly good veterinarian um, I will I will say I have not done the You know regather the clan As adults, I've always wished I could but so many times those puppies are all over, you know All over hell and creation. You can't get them back, right? But I love to go to national specialties and encourage even the pet people that happen to live nearby Right because the the national Travels around in most instances in most breeds not all of them But it moves east midwest west like that And try and bring even your pet people to the national so you can see those puppies see them grown up. They can see You know the national events they can learn more about the breed. It's amazing Well, here's a little um Little bit of secret information as well Is four years ago. We went to the otterhound national Because the otterhounds petitioned the akc and asked if the otterhounds club could start a semen bank collecting semen and storing and maintaining and using semen on pet dogs that were owned in just family homes and Have the otterhound club own that semen and the akc said remarkably and it was wisely. Yes, you can Well, that has now evolved. I will say Joellen Gregory. Yes veterinarian in Sandy only Maryland and one of my clients Becky Sanhoutan kind of has this as a brain child And they have evolved into yes. We did that so pet dogs from we were in iowa for that show so pet dog From the midwest came to the show. We collected semen on them And we froze it and it stored at iowa state university So we have access to this semen for future generations And the akc two years ago at parent club meeting i grabbed mark done by the year and drug him to a table and said mark We have to sit down and have a conversation He's like, okay, join me at dinner So we sat down and i said we need to put together a toolkit for all breeds to be able to do what the otterhound club has Done because the otterhound people are they know they're in trouble genetically They have a small gene pool, but even labradors and golden retrievers have limitations on their gene pool Dobermans any of these breeds we all have it, right? We all do We all do and we you know Skipper keys had a bottleneck and they ended up with mps3 I mean, there's all these things that happen in our breeds nobody means for it to happen But if we're not more forward thinking about how we Save our semen and how we manage our pet dog So, you know, just because he's a pet doesn't mean he's not valuable either in the gene pool For genetically using his semen or for his dna later on to be tested when additional dna tests become available There's so much that we can do so akc has brilliantly and in their wisdom and forward thinking because mark's done is Forward thinking about this has allowed other breeds to do this Now it's not completely ready to roll out that the parent club meetings have been held and we're working on the committee with joellen Dr. Gregory and mark down and a bunch of other people and we've worked really hard to put together a toolkit So that every breed doesn't have to reinvent the wheel We can make this easier But we're pushing back the age at which we neuter dogs at this point, you know, it's smart to let them become mature So this is a chance to say okay. He's going to grow up going to mature We're going to collect his semen and then we're going to neuter him But his semen is now in a semen bank So we can come back to it and use it down the road if we end up with a bottleneck or a genetic mutation or some other Disaster world war three, right, you know, like world war one and world war two cause serious bottlenecks in The european huge didn't have the genes So we have to be smart about how we do this now world war three could be the end of the world But if it's not I still want to own a dog, right? Well, marty a couple things that um and everybody knows my my Saying on this one. There's a podcast for that. There is a podcast for that. We did interview joe ellen way back um, and she is phenomenal And I think one of the things that's really super amazing about this is that as the Other clubs are able to do it and and follow the otterhounds guidelines The the semen isn't just available to you Right, like you own the dog. You're the only one that can use it is the way the world works today In this vision, right that semen is available to anyone Yes That's huge and there are people in breeds certain breeds that are Reluctant shall we say Renaissance to share their semen with other people because they're like, this is my dog I've spent 40 years developing this line of dogs and it's mine And I think that's a little bit narrow minded and a little short-sighted So I think that it's really important that we are more global And even if you don't want your dog to be used in the gene pool At least his semen will be there for DNA testing down the road when additional DNA tests become available And newsflash people some of the DNA tests that we're banking heavily on that We are relying and eliminating drugs from our gene pool Some of the tests are going to prove to be wrong folks So really be smart about what you do and you don't have to wait until the dog is four years old to start collecting the semen Their semen is best between two and five years of age. Don't wait until he's 12 Don't wait until he has cancer don't wait until he's sick Don't wait until he falls in the swimming pool and drown Don't wait don't wait until he gets hit by a deer hit by a car or whatever you want it to imagine Collective semen when he's young you know you can look at these dogs You know when they're a good dog or not a good dog collect the semen and they're frozen You can always thought out later, but a kc is really really really working hard to make this a very cool program And I I have a very strong saying you have yours. I have mine People don't look like their dogs. They act like their dogs So terrier people we know are terriers and corgi people are corgis and hurting people are hurting people And golden retriever people are golden retriever people and that's the way it is So people have a lot of personality traits that match those of their dogs, but We need to be global We need to be smart about this and we need to not be selfish about our genetics if you've worked 40 years to develop a really great line of dogs Share it. Share it. It doesn't mean it's going to be irresponsibly used Share it and we just had a comment from stacey actually and she's dead on she says that she thinks some of our best In her breed which are spinoni are sitting in a backyard or out hunting in the field and never made it to the ring And and that's absolutely correct. It's correct in wirehead pointers. It's correct in a lot of our Sort of bird dogs, you know what I'm saying or maybe they Maybe they finished it and and went home and nobody's ever seen it Right and it's gorgeous and you're like wait, what uh that dog Right So beautiful pet dogs And sometimes we don't have the the number of show homes we need and frankly sometimes show homes aren't the best homes from a dog Sometimes either before they're shown during while they're being shown or after they're shown The best home is someplace where they're someone one and only love of their life Hanged with the kids doesn't get stuck in a crate or a kennel or whatever We all know That is the case that sometimes the pet homes are the best homes for that dog And we need to be forward thinking and not selfish about this because if you really value The breed you have devoted your life to share their scenery share the love It's okay, but this is mentoring This is mentoring too marty It is it is and I'm sorry to kind of the hijack the conversation. Yeah, you're good That's why I brought you here hijacking. I'm all about it So, okay So that's I think that that's a really important thing and I think it's something You know, obviously marty's invested time in it If you guys haven't heard it go back and listen to joel and gregory's podcast That we did several years ago. I think right after she had gotten this done and And and really take a listen to that because it's pretty amazing Um, you know, I wanted to touch on another subject marty where I can combine your Um, and some of you guys don't and don't realize that marty is not only a dvm She is also an attorney And so every now and then I picked marty's brain on legal plus veterinary stuff And so it being lightning round. I thought we'd touch on a hot topic That just popped up yesterday When the courts in norway Made it illegal to breed bulldogs or cavillier king charles spaniels And for those of you who have not heard of this or think this is crazy Understand that it's coming here Um, so marty, I wondered if you wanted to touch on that for a minute Well, yeah, I've been following this I'm on the tfb board because I'm on everybody's board at some point So they have and I'll I'll send you the link for this. Um, it's dog well net Right, so if you're not familiar with dog well net, um and the harmonization project take a look at that Because there's some really cool stuff on there about dna testing and genetics and how we need to use this And this is a pretty controversial and difficult topic right now But you're right everything that happened in europe eventually ends up happening here They just tend to be a little bit ahead of us about certain things um, and maybe it won't the americans Americans as a whole and genetically so we get back to genetics genetically our four fathers left the european countries Or whatever country that your family comes from and so whether Oriental countries countries or european countries or south america, whatever you came from Your families in your genetically A genetic line left their country and made it to the united states and said I want to live in the u.s Because I am going to have better freedom in the u.s than I have in my other countries So we inherently as americans. I believe genetically are rebellious And less likely to fall in line behind what everybody else does which I think is a great thing but We are seeing tail docs And your crops go away. We're seeing e-claws We're seeing a lot of things really change In how things are done. Um, I had a conversation today with a client about decline cats and You can feel the way you feel about it that there are some clients That can't live with a cat and let's just be clawed because they have immune diseases They're immunocompromised and it's a cat claws and they can't keep the cat and so You know, if you have AIDS or rheumatoid arthritis or cancer and you can't have a cat because of that It's a it's a big deal So all of this is a big deal because we are eventually going to deal with limitations that are put on us By people that aren't us. We've already seen kestros go away Like it or not. We've seen kestros go away. We've seen kennels decrease in size We've seen people put out a business that really shouldn't be put out of business because they thought that They were horrible people that are breeders and all of you on this call are probably a breeder So in someone's mind you're an evil horrible person because you breed dogs So we have to realize that This stuff is coming And we have to be really careful with how we fall in line and what we allow our government our Three clubs are whatever tell us to do So it is a difficult problem. Yes. This is very controversial And there are people on the ipfd board from all over the country some in the u.s. So in canada some from the european countries A lot of them are from them swedish spanish that kind of thing So it's it's it's a tough conversation and We're going to see limitations put on breakages to phallus We you know if you if you don't crop yours on the doberman. I know it sounds like a different topic But it's not if you don't crop yours all the same. It doesn't look like a doberman It looks like a black and tan coonhound Um Great things look like great things boxers look like boxers, but dobermans look like black and tan coonhounds if they're not cropped in back We're really bad lab crosses Yeah People love their frenchies. They love their bulldogs. They're cool little dogs, but We're gonna have to be really careful what we wish for because This is gonna come down and we're gonna end up not getting to pick some of the things that we really want to do Yeah, yeah, I I think that that's something that we just all need to be aware of Um, you'll probably have heard about national animal interest alliance. I've done a ton of interviews And and and discussing that on the podcast marty is are you still the president these days? of the boards On at NAIA So Exactly wet free time. So I think it's really important that we just pay attention be aware um And and have information, right? We within the dog fancy should not be The ones saying oh, I hate a bulldog or I hate a pug dog or I hate brachycephalic or we Really really really work together support responsible breeders who are working hard to keep producing healthy happy dogs. I think that that is One of our biggest failings, frankly Right. So hs us aspca all these organizations that try to get new legislation They have the model figured out. They start with anti pig um Farrowing crate legislation in a state that doesn't have pigs like new jersey Like how many pigs live in new jersey not very many But the legislation passed there to say farrowing crates are bad And so now in my opinion farrowing crates are not a bad thing a farrowing crate Basically is a crate that a sow goes into so that when she has her baby pigs She can't eat them and she can't lay on them And sows are not nice creatures They lay on their pigs not on purpose, but they're like bull masters and bulldogs and some of the other big body dogs They don't know they're laying on a baby pig and and some of them are not nice to their little baby pigs and they'll hurt them So they start with legislation in new jersey because nobody has pigs in new jersey And then all of a sudden it's in new jersey and then it's in new Hampshire and then it's in new york And then it's somewhere else and then pretty soon. It's in Iowa where the pigs come from, okay? So this is how hs us as pta all these organizations work So if you want to support the kind of legislation that we need Right now patty strand and national animal interest alliance is working really hard on bills To um reduce the importation of animals from outside the country and that involves dogs Yes, because of brucellosis and rabies that involves pigs because of african swine fever that involves other species for other diseases So be aware that you need to be legislatively active and national animal interest alliance has an website you go on You put in your legislators information and you will get alerts from national animal interest alliance when there's legislation pending at your state But before this legislation you need to get to know your local senators your local representatives the people in your state and the people at your national organizations that they know you're a good guy You're a dog breeder. You're an upstanding responsible citizen that wants to have healthy animals and you're a subject matter expert Exactly and it doesn't matter if you think you're a subject matter expert You are a subject matter expert because you are an animal person and they will then turn to you and say So what do you think of this legislation? So you're not calling them cold when there's something brewing and terrible coming down the pipe That's going to mean you can't have more than two dogs in your neighborhood You need to know this stuff. You need to be in contact with these people ahead of time. So please Get on nai a get the legislative alerts pay attention Meet your legislative people know their aides the aides are the people that really make the decisions tomorrow I'm meeting with tami fobs once aid about upcoming legislation. Nice. I'm doing this stuff Yeah, it's really important and you guys need to be the subject matter experts You're the good guys you pay your taxes in that let that area They know who you are You're an upstanding good citizen They will call you when they need to know but you can't wait until it's the last minute It's amazing how fast some of this legislation gets passed and you're going to get screwed right out of owning a dog Reading a dog eating meat if you choose to wearing leather shoes if you choose to We're going to lose those right Pretty soon. It's all going to be something else if we're not paying attention. Yep Absolutely a hundred percent agree on that. So switching again, marty. We had a question come in about Um dew claws. How do you feel about whether one should or should not? Remove dew claws. I will tell you this is on a hunting breed um, and I Personally do because I've seen dogs with ripped dew claws, but speak to us And I still take them off. Um, I don't think that they serve a real great function So I know I'm going to conflict with christine think and there's a lot of things I think christine is really right on but on this I'm going to take exception I I x-ray dogs. I look at limping dogs. I see dogs every day in my veterinary practice. I work six days a week I have never seen a dog come in with a weak pastern that I thought was caused by removing the dew claw I have arguments about leaving dew claws versus removing them I've heard people say it weakens the the pastern with the carpus. I don't think that's true I don't see dogs with arthritis in their carpus that are because dew claws are removed number two I've heard people say if they fall through the ice, they're going to pull themselves out with a dew claw I'm like if you're falling through the ice and the dew claw is what's going to save you I'm having a hard time believing that So no, I don't think dew claws serve that purpose now. I think dew claws are annoying I think they're unsightly in certain dogs. They certainly tear off when you're in the field Um for service dogs in particular we've seen them stop taking them off of service dogs and that makes me nuts because CCI dogs are supposed to put their feet in your lap and And you know on command right and bring you their set of keys that you've dropped on the floor And those dew claws are nasty little creatures I still take them off of my cordies because I'm allowed to On my Danish Swedish farm dogs. I don't because I respect the Europeans But I don't think dew claws serve a function and I don't think removing them causes a health issue. So I think it depends on your breed. I remember 40 years ago. My first leader client with the Dalmatian breed And he came into me and he said so if I leave these on people are going to think I'm a bumpkin I still remember him saying that to me 40 years later. Oh my gosh, that's funny That's funny. That's funny. So It's appropriate in most breeds certain great Pyrenees you would not take them off But in some breeds, I think it's important Well, I you know, I think that for example akitas akitas and shebas they leave them on Okay, right like they're not They're not performing a function in which they run through heavy cover that gets snagged and rips them off. I mean I've dealt with it. It's awful It is Um, okay, and the people that the people that tell you to take them the people that say leave them on Are the people that on sunday afternoon when I'm at the clinic sewing them back up, right? They're on their couch drinking a glass of wine Right, so sure It's easy for you to say because you're not the one in the trenches that are putting dogs back together Exactly Okay. Well, there you go Anybody else out there in listener land? We've had sort of a little bit of a monologue. We'd love to have you join us in this conversation drop Drop a comment in the chat sire Um, it says that they leave them on in laution in case they're asked to export. So there's there's an interesting observation on that Well, and it goes to tails too if you have a breed that has tails done in the u.s But not in europe that makes it difficult. So when they're three days old, do you know who's going to look like what? I i'm not that good, but that's where your photo Circling back, right, right. Well, and I mean in certain things like, you know, stacey's stacey spinoni puppy that went winners bitch at the national this year that we both picked at You know hours old as we're driving home from the c-section Just from her head, right? So, I mean sometimes but not really and and I really I really struggle with that and I mean for me personally it would be a An impediment to export Um an actual dog to another country because I'm not going to not dock my breed They are they have their tails docked for a reason So yeah, and most of the time your dogs are not going to be exported Generally, no, I mean they have they have wire hair pointers in germany, right, you know german wire hair pointers. They don't need mine Oh I mean, they have them there. Yes Um, okay. All right, you guys I don't have any questions from anybody. So we're going to keep going on here on mentoring And and just kind of shifting around a little bit um I have found and and marty you can speak to this as a veterinarian and as a dog breeder I have found that My mentor was my mom for example, okay, she had a mentor who was a gal by the name of jerry davidson those those Almost family stories, right? Uh, the the the tradition of of what you do when you Name a litter by a theme or you know, whatever it is I find that those carry down and can be sort of hard to Wrap your head around changing them, right? So when we learn new information, we're like, no, it's always been done this way. Why would I do? Right, so how do you think about that? Well, yeah, it is hard It's it's like saying well, why should you do this? Well, because I'm your mom You have to do it this way because mom said so Yeah, because we want to go that way, right? Yeah So absolutely, I think there are places that we need to break with tradition, but I think we have to have good reason for it So it does it does make it Let's make it tricky well, I just think of um things that I've learned You know, well being and raising puppies I one of the earliest podcasts we did here Was a series of interviews with dr. Gail Watkins, right on her avidog system and and some of the things that she Incorporated in that system that completely. I mean 110 percent changed how I raised puppies and I It was hard. I'm like, you mean I don't need this heat lamp, you know, two feet over their heads. Wait. No, I'm not sure I can do this, right? It is it is hard and I've been in touch with people over the years that are reluctant to do progesterone testing Are reluctant to raise puppies and certainly and we have to Oops, but sometimes you have to let go and move into the 21st century Yes, that can be a challenge. That can be a challenge. All right I I mean here I am talking to y'all on youtube. Trust me. It's a challenge Try to see me set this up. You could you could laugh Um, and I was I was reminded as as marty was talking about her Spreadsheets for how many times she's done a c-section or what have you It reminded me of those of us that show our dogs That have lists of their judges their preferred judges or judges that they showed their dogs to that and what they saw And today we have a horrible thing called the dog show judges report card that I can't stand But when I was a little kid, I had a three ring binder It was purple and green polka dotted like giant polka dots And in that three ring binder I wrote down the name of every single dog or every single judge that I showed my dog to And what the results of the of the judging were and who the competition was and what I thought they wanted blah blah blah I started doing that when I was like 13 so I think that's another right. No, I'm deadly serious That's another thing that I think we can Kind of incorporate into our concept of keeping track of things, right? Yeah, yep Okay, sorry drink a Um, okay, come on y'all. There's there's people out there. Listen. Tell us a question. Ask us a question Um, I'm gonna ask someone to Give me an idea. Jamie. What do you want to hear about? I know some of the people on the call. So I'm picking on them. Jamie. What do you want to hear about type something in here, honey? I'm not sure if this is actually on the same loop Like the chat like I don't know if it's behind So um, I have speaking of the idea of moving into the 20th 21st century Marty You were talking earlier and you were talking about someone who didn't want to do a c-section on their dog And I think this is a super interesting conversation because some of the old school anesthesias Were difficult and we've talked about this some on the podcast But talk to us a little bit about why In so many cases a c-section is not The most horrible thing that could possibly happen to your dog Yeah, that's a great question. And there's actually a strand going right now on the third age analogy list About post-op pain medication for c-sections. I think that's really an important topic so, um, I graduated in 1981 and back in those days we had relatively short-acting barbiturates, but we used a lot of barbiturates anesthesia, but for c-sections We used a drug called inovar vet. Inovar vet was a combination of fentanyl and draperidol And the fentanyl, um, you could reverse the draperidol. You could not But it was a very effective drug for c-sections because You could reverse the draperidol or the fentanyl on the puppies You could reverse it on the bitches and the bitches would go home basically pretty alert and walking Now the downside to it was that if you made any loud noise during the anesthetic procedure The dog would startle and stiffen on the table. So when I was doing some of these c-sections back when my kids were babies We practically had to duct tape them to the chair and put duct tape across their mouths because I didn't have staff to manage the kids And the c-section and the puppies So we had this kind of circus going on of kids and puppies and dog and no noise So it was kind of a challenge Over the years, we've certainly seen huge improvements in anesthesia But even in the year 2000, Pallamoon, who was at the time a surgical anesthesiology resident at Cornell Did a fascinating study on 3900 puppies Wow that were harvested from Almost 800 c-section bitches and she collected data from Veteran all over the u.s in Canada that were in private practice and at university settings And we contributed data to that study. So I'm pretty familiar with the information Basically what she did is she didn't tell anybody what anesthetic agents to use. She just collected the data based on What did you use did you use Propofallin alfax and didn't exist and did you use Um a short acting barbiturate. What drug did you use? And she determined that puppy survival rates in 2000 And this was 22 years ago before we had these newer drugs Were five to six percent higher across the board with c-section letters than were with vaginal birth It was at zero hours Two hours and seven days So she didn't just look at it in the short term. She looked at it seven days out, which you know, that's That's pretty good. If you get a puppy to seven days, you're probably going to get it to me And later So I think her information was really important for us to realize that between five and six percent More puppies survived when they were born by c-section and by vaginal birth Is it nice for the bitch to have vaginal birth instead of a c-section? Yes My worst thing is for a bitch to have to go through labor deliver most of her puppies and still end up with a c-section Because then she has The c-section and the labor and the delivery it sort of sucks. Yeah, that's a bad one sometimes you don't have a Yeah, sometimes you don't have a choice. She falls out. She doesn't do well Yesterday in my practice I had a dog that came in she was supposed to have nine puppies She had eight at home. She stopped at one o'clock in the morning at 10 o'clock in the morning She was at my practice where the puppy left behind the heart rate on the puppy was under 40 It was horrible. Oh my god. I mean I looked at this heart rate on the ultrasound with dr. Amin and went Oh my god, okay, if you have any hope of saving this puppy, we need to go now The client said go because of course she'd been up all night so she was exhausted and she was still making decent decisions so we Through the blood in the ultrasound or in the machine through the dog up the ultrasound table through the ekg to the cardiologist Through in an ivy cap that ran the surgery pumped her full of atropine and fluid The puppy came out white as a sheet and revived beautifully. Oh man, so This puppy still survives in spite of the fact that all the odds were against him. It was a little boy So Yes, C-section still have a higher percentage of survival rates. Is it hard on the bitch? It can be but if you have a good surgeon with good surgical techniques You use appropriate pain medication local blocks and post up pain medication Which is the the thread right now on the theory of genealogy list of what we should be using I've used non-steroidal anti-inflammatories for over 20 years On my postpartum C-section bitches that will tell you that those bitches make better mothers They feel better. They lack take better. They nurse better. They feel better. They lay down better for their puppies They're not grouchy with the puppies these bitches do really well. Do you lovely to have vaginal birth? Absolutely, but you know what it doesn't always work that way. No, it doesn't I started my family started in clumber spaniels trust me I have But as a child participated in more C-sections than many breeders will ever encounter C-sections do not scare me. This was back in the day when The anesthesia was terrible and our vet. I think I've told you this story before Dr. Alan Ross at companion animal clinic in Roseburg, Oregon. God love him Acquired the information the knowledge the skill The recipe for how to do a C-section with morphine And that's how all of our earliest clumber litters were C-sectioned was sort of crazy Okay, so real quick Ike is here and he has a question He wants to know if I personally I assume and for all american dogs In order to get their owners into the sport of dogs And i'm going to tell you what Ike my very very very very first dog in my life was a beagle dogs in cocker spaniel asa So poodle His name was morris. He could sit up and beg No, no, he was not purebred He was in hyans 57 And and he could sit up and beg and he could put one ear up in the air And my father was entirely convinced he could throw his farts So there you go It's absolute Calling in life and I loved that dog more than life itself and I have had many many many Mixed free dogs over the years. I had a Sort of a shepherd love malamute kind of dog that when I was working at the animal shelter in salt lake city I rescued him from there. I have zero problem with the average mutt dog I think they're fabulous I believe that everyone should get to choose the dog that they want that fits their lifestyle the best I happen to think that purebred dogs are easier for most people in america or anywhere in the world To to own because they're predictable We know what size what color what the hair what the temperament what the attitude all those things We know what they're going to be And that's why I like purebred dogs But if someone has an all-american dog and wants to obedience with it And and I could very easily be thrown under a bus for this But I believe if you have an all-american dog and want to do junior showmanship with it You should get to do that Um, yep that now that is a super Super hot button topic But it was a hot button topic when they wanted to do all-american dogs and obedience to and now nobody even notices So there you go. That that is my that is my opinion Ike and I just I think that the most important thing we need to remember is that we love all dogs. I do I don't really care what it is. I happen to love my dogs the best because I am like Marty said much like my dogs a little intense A little a little um stand up and a few things like that. So there you go Um, okay So, yeah, the predictability is huge. Yes. So when you go shopping for a car You know, if you want a hot little sports car or a minivan, right, you know You can't buy a hot sports car if you have eight crates. Do you need to fit in it? So when you buy a car, you know what you're getting when you buy a dog You should know what you're getting and I think when you're 30 You might be a little bit more flexible on well I bought a dog that I've thought with the buy with the way when you adopt a dog from a humane society arrest you You're buying it. So let's get real. Let's get the terms right But say you get a dog from the shelter or wherever And you're 30 years old and the dog you thought was going to be 40 pounds turns into 140 pound dog You can probably still manage it When you're 72 and you go to pick out your last dog and you think you're getting a 40 pound dog or a 12 pound dog or whatever And it turns out to be five times to think the size you think it was going to be Or the code isn't right or the temperament or the activity level or the On defensiveness or the you know Possessiveness of that dog doesn't turn out to be what you expected it to be. It's pretty tough I took declines all day long that when you get your next dog you're 72 You're getting your last dog When you're 80 you need to be able to get this dog in the car if something happens to it Don't get a dog that weighs 140 pounds Because when it blows the cruciate or blows his back or whatever How are you going to manage that you can't you can't all day long? I have people that deal with that I know I have wanted an irish will found my entire life And I never had room for one and now I have room for one and I look at myself and I say Yeah, no, there's no way that I can do 250 pounds worth of I can't do it. I can't do it I can't do it not at this point in my life. It's very depressing. I have to tell you Okay, okay you guys we have time for probably one more question. Um, jamie's talking about um That she does breed education as her part to help with rescue Um, so that you help rest reduce rescue by educating people before they ever get the breed that they fell in love with Um, and since jamie has mastiffs. I think that's a really great idea Right like nobody should have a mastiff that doesn't understand what they actually are requiring Um, yeah, yeah. Yes. There's a really nice book that um is out of print right now But you can survive on amazon stand no tortura the right dog for you. Oh, nice person is that that goes through activity and personality traits and shedding and into activity versus outdoor activity So really nice nice old book You can still find it from time to time use But in the the book I published last year my pandemic your pandemic puppy Right it goes through some of these great So I encourage people to think through the traits that they want make a list of the pros the cons The traits that are advisable for them the traits that aren't important to them and really make A good important decision before they start to buy a puppy So I encourage people to buy the your pandemic puppy books before they get a puppy from you So i'm going to tell you that the book is 20 bucks when he's slain published it So if you have to buy a 20 dollar book and give it to somebody and they decide not to buy a puppy from you Because they read the book and they went whoa Your breed is not right for me. Right. That's the best 20 dollars You'll ever spend instead of having that dog come back to you a year from now ruined because Trust me and you know, I think the thing that's really frustrating and you understand this more Do you have you have the same kind of minds of dogs? You know, you talk to people you ask them they answer they say all the right things you talk to them some more you tell them And they say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah And then at a year old or a year and a half old the dog's been sitting in a kennel run for nine months Trust me. I've got one here at my house Because it was too much dog and it took them nine months to own up to it and call you and say so I mean, I'm glad they called and didn't dump her but it's very frustrating. It's very frustrating It is and so the more of that you can avoid the battle. So educate your people is absolutely correct And having them go somewhere else to buy a puppy might be the best thing that ever happened to you. Yes, absolutely And like like jamie says, you know There's a right dog for everyone But not but certain dogs are not the even a Labrador is not the right dog for everyone Right And I think that that is to me the beauty of purebred dogs They are history. They are arch They they are all of these things, but they are so specific and they give us that opportunity to to Have exactly what it is we want and a wire hair pointer And a and a spinoni Italiano are both bearded wire coated hunting dogs from europe And they could be no more different than if they were from different planets And I think that that is absolutely essential because a wire hair pointer is a perfect fit for me and a spinoni is italiano is a perfect fit for my friend Right like you can't get that with your average I don't know what it is It came from the street Yeah Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. All right, so purebred dogs. Whoop whoop all dogs the best Whatever you got. We are always happy to have dog lovers here and I just wanted to give a particular shout out Bethany is here all the way from australia. So I don't even know what time it is there I'm a little terrified to think about that But bethany you win the prize For the longest distance distance listener Bethany says she has a whip it, but she'd love a greyhound, but they're so much bigger Yes, indeed. They are But they don't break they don't break as easily as a whip it either Well, actually, I don't I don't know are your whip it's out there breakable the whip it's I've had around me. Haven't been breakable Yes, but the ids are yeah for sure the ids are I always thought a whip it was going to be breakable But I mean I've had several here over the years and I didn't find them to be all that fragile Like, you know, I can remember looking at them before I was actually owned them or lived with them Or what have you and thinking my god, you can see through their skin, you know But they're they're a lot tougher than they look Yeah, how they're tough dog. Yes Absolutely tough minded and and they look so, you know the whip it's particularly I just I get a chuckle out of it. They look so, you know, beautiful and elegant and they're Resting gently and they make this perfect little thing on your couch and then you let them loose and like They are they're just crazy. Hey Heather's here too Yes Heather Butcher Heather has Heather's been having a rough time. So Heather props to you. I'm super glad you made it And it's 12 30 p.m. Is that afternoon Bethany or 12 30 p.m. Like 12 30 in the morning. I'm scared Oh my goodness All right. Well you guys we are about at the end of our rope Marty, thank you so much for joining us You and I were laughing the other day because we had different things planned and we got to talk to each other three days in a row Yes It's perfect. Yeah, for sure. It was perfect. You've now had your laura quota for a full month. I'm pretty sure Anyway, I'll get over it. I'll get okay. All right. Shoo super glad about that You guys thanks everyone for joining us pure dog talks lightning round with laura Our live podcast for your friends who didn't get to catch it. I will be posting the link To this youtube video onto the pure dog talk facebook page. So you'll be able to find it there and Thank you. Thanks everybody for joining us. This is a lot of fun I'm really I have been wanting to do this for a couple years and got distracted with some other stuff And I think this is fabulous. So thanks everyone for joining us and remember it's going to be the first Tuesday of every month All right. So let's look here. I'll give you I'll give you a Oh march first Imagine that so on march first We will be back here and we'll have another topic and another special guest. So Thanks, everybody. Don't forget. Thank our sponsors embark and true panion And we'll catch you on the flip side. All right, y'all Good night. Good night. Thanks marty