 So, good afternoon to everyone, good afternoon to those who are accessing from Europe, good late afternoon to those who are accessing from the Arab world. Good evening, I guess, you know, good afternoon for those who are accessing from East Asia and good morning to those who are accessing from the U.S. and North America. I will begin with six lines from Mahmoud Darwish, right, from Halat Hisar. So, I want to begin and Halat Hisar was written in 2002 in Ramallah. I begin with this. Welcome everyone to this event brought to you by Sawas and the Sheikh Zaid Book Award. The Sheikh Zaid Book Award is one of the world's leading prizes dedicated to Arabic literature and culture. Since 2006 the award has brought recognition, reward and readership to outstanding works by authors, translators, publishers and organizations around the world. Sawas is of course famous for its global reach and its commitment to the global south. Sawas is a world leading center in the study of the Arab world with a high profile in cultural literary and translation studies. This year, like last year, Sawas and Sheikh Zaid Book Award are collaborating in the organization of two events. The first one on publishing and technology in the Arab world took place on the 14th of September. The event was recorded and will be uploaded on both Sawas and Sheikh Zaid Book Award YouTube channels. You may have been uploaded already. Today, we bring to you the second event of this year on the detective novel in Arabic noir. We have with us three guests of honor, Saeed Khatibi, the winner of Young Author Award for Nihayyat al-Sahra, The End of the Desert. This novel was published by Hashat Antoine Nofal in 2002. Nihayyat al-Sahra is a work of crime fiction depicting the long lasting effects of the Algerian war over future generations. The book stands out as a noteworthy addition to the scarce historical detective novels in modern Arabic literature that cater to younger readers. This is a quote from the sort of the prize committee. Saeed Khatibi is a writer, journalist and translator working and living in Slovenia since 2016. He has published several translations including the translation of the poetry of Catebiasin and anthology of Algerian short stories written in French and the encyclopedia of Arab African cinema. He is author of four published novels, Kitab al-Khatayah, the book of sins, 2013. Arba'ouna Aaman fi'intighar Izabel, 40 years waiting for Izabel, 2016. Hatab Sarayabo, Firewood of Sarayabo, 2018. He also published a book about his travels titled Jana'in al-Sharq al-Multahiba, the Inflamed Heavens of the East, 2015. Saeed Khatibi has been active as a cultural journalist since 2006 and runs a cultural column published every Saturday in al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper. In addition to winning the Sheikh Zaid Book Award, he was previously awarded the Arab Journalism Award, the Ibn Batrouda Prize for travel literature and the Qattara Prize for Arabic novel and has been shortlisted for the international prize for Arabic fiction. And we have with us also Dr. Jonathan Smolin from Dartmouth College. Jonathan is Associate Professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Dartmouth College. He's the author of Moroccan Noir, Police, Crime, and Politics of Capital Culture, which was published in 2013 and the forthcoming prisoner of love, Ahsan Abdul Quddoos, Gamal Abdul Nasir, and the Politics of Romance, or as he just said, melodrama. He has translated numerous works of Arabic fiction, including novels by Ahsan Abdul Quddoos, Yusuf Fadal, and Abdel Ila Hamdushi. We also have with us Dr. Pei Zhen Tsung, who is currently an Assistant Professor of Arabic Language and Culture at National Center University in Taiwan. She received her AM in Arabic and Islamic Studies from Harvard University, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, and her PhD from the Department of Near Eastern Studies at the University of California, Berkeley in December 2021. Pei Zhen's research interests include Arabic literature, Arabic rhetoric with concentration on the theory of Abdel Qahir-Jerjani and Arabic language pedagogy. She is currently working on the comparative poetics of Arabic and Chinese allergies. So we have about an hour, 60 minutes to 75 minutes, but we can go beyond a little bit if there is a huge interest. In today's event, we'll follow the format of a dialogue. I have introduced them and Jonathan will kick off the questions to be followed by Pei Zhen and we'll take it from there. So before I let loose of the speakers, our guests of honors, let me tell you a few housekeeping things. First of all, how to access simultaneous interpretation. For those of you who want to listen to the conversation in Arabic, go down to the bottom of the screen. You'll find an icon of a globe that says interpretation. Click on it and you will be taken to the Arabic interpretation. For those of you who want to listen to the conversation in Arabic, click on the icon in the name of interpretation. When you click on this icon, you will find a link that says interpretation in Arabic. Two, when you want to ask your question, please use the function of question and answer Q&A to ask your questions. Recording, of course, this event will be recorded and will be posted on Sahas and Sheikh Zed Book Award channels later. So anyway, let's begin. So let me turn to you, Jonathan, for you to start our conversation with Saeed. Thank you so much. Thank you for the introduction. Thank you to so as and thank you to the Sheikh Zed for this wonderful opportunity and wonderful panel. And thank you to my panelists and thank you to everybody who's come. We're delighted to have you here. So I am delighted to have the opportunity to talk about this really brilliant and trailblazing novel. Mr. Saeed, I want to start with, in many ways, the elephant in the room of Arabic literature, of Arabic crime and detective literature. Your novel contains crucial elements of noir fiction, such as a crime begins with a crime. There's an investigation or multiple people investigating. There's a police character and a lawyer, but it's unfortunately a rare example of noir or crime fiction in Arabic. Of course, there are some examples, but it's by and large rare. Why do you think the genre has been delayed in the Middle East and North Africa? Why has it been delayed in Arabic? What are your your feelings about that? How are you? How are you everyone? And thank you for Sheikh Zaid Pais to give me a chance to talk about my novel. So, why? Why? That is a big question. Everybody asks the same question always. But let me talk about the case of Algeria, for example. I don't think so. Because in fact, for example, the crime fiction in Algeria, for example, began in the 70s. The real start, you know, with two writers, they have been very famous in that time, but they publish with their pseudonyms, not with their real names. It was Yusuf Khadar and Abdul Aziz Amarami. They published a series of novels in Algeria. They have been successful, you know, at that time, but nobody knows about them, their real names. Still now, we don't know them. But they were not really writing, let's say, true. They were not really writing crime novels, but let's say kind of novels that supported the dominant political party of this period. So it was more political writing with some elements of leaders, of course, inside. You know, a big literature genre, I like this example. We can talk about like the Mahfoud with his novel, The Thief and the Dogs. You know, it was great here. It was also, has been adapted in the cinema. It was also a great film. I think so. It is old, you know. In Contra Boy, a big literature genre. If we go back, if we go back in the time, I think if you, if you agree with me, one thousand and one nights, for example, was basically a thrill, I think. Because Shiraia, when you see him in the building, he was serial killer. He was killing his wife every day. He's serial killer, you know. We start one thousand and one nights as we are in the beginning. So I don't think that the crime fiction of Shiraia was absent from Arab literature. But there were some breaks, breakups, sorry. Sometimes you have one period, some texts or some novels, and one after some years, we have some break. So it was not in, we don't have one historical line of crime fiction in Arabic literature, but we have some periods inside. And we have also to say that the thrill is completely literary writing. Of course, freedom is, expression is an important element. We can't talk about literature generally and particularly thrill without freedom of expression. That is necessary. That is the first condition. In Nigeria, for example, we risk writing thriller. The thrill is also novel of social criticism. It's not just to describe crime or you are looking who is the killer. Now, outside, you have some other elements. You have political criticism also. So when we live in a country where the criticism is forbidden by the political system, the thrill becomes something difficult to write or to think about. So social shit is still there also. That is also another element. So social shit we still forbidden some books every year, some movies also. So there is an audience, there is public, there is readers, there are a lot of people they want to read. And you know, the Arabic word, it's a big market for foreign infection coming from Europe or US or from the Iranian countries. You know, we have many translations in Arabic word. That means we have audience, but there are not enough good social political conditions. So freedom of expression censorship. Could this be why we see an emergence of an Algerian crime novel in the 70s? At a time perhaps when there was more freedom of expression in Algeria in the 1970s and the aftermath of course of independence. I also wonder, does language play any role here? Because the Polar, the police novel, the detective novel in Algeria, it developed, of course, in French. As you mentioned, you've got Yusuf Khaldir in the 70s, but you also have Jamal Dib, Zehra Hufani, Ismina Khadra in the 90s. There's such a rich tradition in French, but not Arabic. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on why do we have this rich tradition and development in French in Algeria in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, but not a parallel path for Arabic. Yeah, it's a good question. Everybody also, when we talk about Algeria, I think we are the one of great countries in the world. We can't say Algerian literatures, but Algerian literatures, plural, you know, because we have in French, in Arabic and also in Berber language. So we have the biggest, biggest area. I think it's not about the language, French or Arabic or other language. But Algerian crime fiction has developed thanks to the diaspora. So we have to be clear. Thanks to diaspora, thanks to authors who live in Europe in the beginning, and particularly in France, because it's the local connection between Algeria and France, who naturally write in French, they live in France, they write in French. So the real starting of crime fiction in Algeria started with writers, diaspora, they live in France. It was not because of language, but because of your geographical area. And staying inside in that time and writing real thriller is difficult because publishers that don't want to bother such a shit. They don't want to have problems with government or in bookstores or, you know, they don't want to invest money for book, it will be interdict later. So the diaspora which gives, I think, a new life to a literary in Algeria. So it was really kind of, they have been in Europe, they have been in France, they have been connected with another literary society. They discover something new and they bring it inside. So it was not about to return back to your question, it was also about French or Arabic, but is diaspora who participate in developing crime fiction in Algeria? I love this, I love this perspective that the language is really not significant, it is the question of diaspora. It's coming from someone who is living outside of Algeria. So does your own experience of living abroad have a connection with the interest in writing crime fiction or writing noir? Oh, by contradiction, I wrote this novel in Algeria also. I wrote it in Algeria. No, you know what, I start to write in Algeria, not all, but yes, yes. When I am in, because I go often in my home, my home country, town, of course. But when you are inside, it's not the same when you're abroad, you see differently, you know. I see it more clearly when I am outside. And inside, it's difficult, it's difficult to write. People that don't accept criticism, you know, you don't have to criticize their culture or their life. They think everybody is good, everybody is nice and they don't accept it. Well, for me, from my own experience, yes, to travel abroad, it helped me a lot. It helped me a lot about to see my history, my history of my country differently. So it helped me a lot. And also, it gives me some kind of freedom that I will not have it in Algeria. Of course, if you write something that doesn't, that this political system doesn't like, they will not do nothing to do, but you will lose your job, for example. You will have some problems, you know. They will not tell you this in a direct way, but we have some experience. Some, the writer, they suffered a lot with them. So since I am relatively free, yes, I can write now three and more and more and more. So I defended my freedom, my own freedom, so. And it was necessary to feel free. I don't say, you know, it's difficult to give right definition of freedom, but I was free in my imagination. I don't, I don't practice now self-censorship and myself. That's it. It's a necessary point to think to write the current number. Fantastic. So obviously October 1988 is a pivotal, pivotal moment in modern Algerian history. But it's also where you anchor your novel during, you know, your novel during this period. Is there something in particular about that historical moment that lends itself to noir, to crime, to investigation? Well, you know, there is not so much books or audiovisual material about October 5, 1988 in Algeria. For me, it was really a major event. It could be a hundred movies about and a hundred books about, you know. Because October 5, it was the first most tragic moment in Algeria after Independence. When at that time there was not, you know, nobody think that one day could Algerians killing Algerians. We have already 25 years from the Independence. We think that we will make great country, we dream, we dream, we dream a lot, but we are doing nothing in reality. And one day you wake up and you have hundreds victims in the street. At that time, I think that we need hours and hours to explain why it happened, you know. But I will just say briefly that at that time there was not single murder. It was not just one crime. Now, but hundreds, against hundreds of Algerians, hundreds with guns, above now with somebody, they come with knives and everything to kill other Asians, in public, in the street. Everybody watching everybody and everybody wants to kill everybody. It was some tragic moment like you are in the war. And after hundreds of victims, kids, teenagers, adults, everybody was be able to be killed in that time. Even kids 13 years old or 14 years old has been killed in the street. In my case, for example, in my level one, when I have main character, she was young, you know, she was also dreaming. She wants to live, she wants to be happy. And one day she is killed because a lot of people are young people in the same age like her has been killed in the same time. For me, it was just metaphor of this generation. Maybe metaphor of Algeria also because after October 5, we killed also the dreams of those who freed the country from colonization. And to come back in the past, in your question, in the street, there were manifestations, protests, there were victims, we know them, but they were never investigation. We don't know, nobody was thinking to make investigation, who killed, nobody. We have just take things, we know them, but we don't, we don't meet any investigation. So in my level, I try to answer my question. The biggest question, how did we get there in this tragic moment? That is easy to describe what happened, that we can find also maybe in some books of history, but not necessary to tell me what happened, but I want to understand why it happened. Not the protests, people in the street, but what is the reason to make people, at one day in all the country, in the same day, it was not entered at that time, no Facebook, no connection, no thing, even telephone to call somebody, it was difficult. It's not easy to find the telephone in the street, but in the same day, all the people, all the country, they are outside in the street, in front of the police army everything, and the hundreds and hundreds of pictures. Thank you. I have one final question before we move on, which is, I'm very curious about research, your research process. And I've heard you mentioned elsewhere that archives are outside of Algeria. If you want to research Algerian archives, you have to go to France. One thing I'm curious about in my own work is that I'm constantly navigating or trying to find material which is not in an archive. And I go to magazine markets and newspaper markets or just old sellers of this and that and out of the way places. And this for me shows that even if there isn't a good archive, there's still a public interest in the past in newspapers, magazines. And I'm wondering in Algeria, even if there are no archives for your research, are there still people and places to find newspapers, magazines and other materials or artifacts from the past? Was that part of your research process or has it been in the past? Of course it's part of my work. Yeah. You said, use people smart. No, it's not, nobody. You know, it's this kind of archives you can find them at somebody, at his own. You must know him, you must know somebody. He will collect you with him. It's really complicated inside. But yes, I can find some of them. I can find. And also, yeah, yeah, mostly of archives in Algeria, they are still here. I don't know why I hope that one day could be returned back to Algeria. But we still, we still have to go in some, some institutes, you know, in some centers of archives in France, in Paris or in the south near Marseille to check and, you know, you are not able even to take pictures, to check inside with your screen, just to be inside. You don't have to, to take screenshots or something. So you have to go personally there. So it's still difficult question of archives in Algeria. But also what we have as archives, some centers, as Algerian, we don't have access to them. I don't talk about archives in France, but in Algeria it's difficult to have access to check them. Okay, thank you so much. Yeah, before we turn to Peyton, there's a comment that I like to read to you because it's about sort of the context, right? Of the emergence and development of mystery, or mystery novel, or police novel, right? And we have from our audience, Amrita Shodan. I hope I'm not butchering your name. It is suggested that crime fiction in English is a conservative genre where the outbreak of crime and its solution functions as social catharsisism, where the social fabric is torn asunder and then restored by the work of a detective or other intelligent gentleman operator. This has been linked to the disruption caused by the coloniality, imperial experience, Dickens and others, for example. Perhaps this specificity of the British experience suggests that no one should not expect the fiction of this sort to appear in other societies where the experience is quite different. So that's an interesting one. But now let's turn to the novel itself, the fabric, you know, the composition of the novel, and let's turn to Peyton, who will sort of like take part in this conversation with Zahid. So Peyton, the floor is yours. Thank you, Professor Olyam. Thank you for this opportunity to participate for me as the intellectuals. And thank you for the event. I'll start with Zahid Khadibi. My question will focus more on the novel itself as Professor Olyam said. So first of all, it's kind of like a follow-up discussion to the question that Professor Smolin addressed earlier about the time that you pick for this novel. So at the last, like, the final section of this novel, that one of the characters, should I mention his name? Camel? So Camel encounters a demonstration that occurred on October 5th of 1988. And I think you already mentioned about the reason that you chose the specific era. But I would like to know if you intend to create a dialogue between the events of 1988 and the Arab Spring. Oh, in the media, always we have some kind of sentence that we repeat without understanding. Always they say on October 5th, 1988, with the Arab Spring. Now it's not true. It's not true. Maybe in the image, you can see that. But when people, they went to the street outside, they didn't want to change the political system. They didn't say this. They were already dominated by the single party at that time. They weren't just simply because they were hungry. At that time it was the same as other countries connected with Moscow or the US. At that time, society, of course, it was a period of big economic crisis. The price of oil fall down, nobody for the budget for the state. And when you go to the store to buy, you don't have nothing. No milk, no oil, nothing. Even with your money, you can buy nothing. It was the same in Hungary and in Romania. But they didn't protest before. In general, it was the first one. So I'm not sure to compare October 5th to Spring. But it's for me, it's suffrage revolution. I prefer to compare October 5th to Berlin war. I think because between October 5th in Algeria and Berlin, when it falls, it's one year. Exactly one year from one year and one month. The first moment, I remember the book of Foucaima when he talked about the end of history. He started talking about the socialist part. It fall down. But I think the end of history stopped in Algeria. The biggest party against socialism stopped in Algeria before in Berlin. Thank you. And you mentioned about the fall down, like the collapse of the socialism in Algeria. And this lead to actually to my second question about the title of the novel, the Nihaya of Sahara. Actually, when I first read this title, it give me, like I was interested, now a Sahara has its Nihaya. So, yeah. Do you think it's an optimistic prospect for some solution or the end of a particular circumstance in Algerian society? About the title. Yeah, like the title, like the end. Yeah, like a metaphorical. We can have many applications of the title. Often geographically, the novel taking place in one small town near the Sahara, of course, geographically. We can see the atmosphere of the Sahara, how much is hot water. We can see that we have the same feeling. The name of the hotel, it takes part because the most events of this novel take part in one hotel. This hotel for me is the picture of Algeria. In this hotel, we find all Algeria inside. The name of this hotel is Sahara. And the end for me is also the end of one history and the link of another. Because after October 5th, we have another Algeria, different. Two different periods. We have been from 60 to the independence until 88 in single parties. It was really a very hard period. Then we opened the door. Okay, we opened the door for a few years then. Black Decade started and theories and everything. But between before October 5th and after October 5th, the end of history and the beginning of another one. Can I come in Sa'id? Excuse me, I'm just thinking about the desert itself and the multiple meanings of the desert in the Arabic writings. I'm thinking also of Al-Qasida, for example, in which the desert journey is very important. And you can argue that on the desert, some sort of transformation happens. And then you have something new that emerges. So that's one. And the other one, as a Libyan, someone who is very keen on Ibrahim Al-Kuni. A desert is also an alternative community, where once upon a time, there was a different vision of the universe, of culture, of civilization. And I was wondering more about your desert. You have a hotel that is Algeria, but outside is a desert and there is Nihaya the Sahara. There is the end to it. Is it the end or is that something else going on? Tell us a bit more about your imaginary. I was more enticed in the Sahara, the Sahara. I don't agree with this romantic opinion about the Sahara, about this vision, about this beauty. Now, the Sahara today, I talk about my Qidizat Sahara in Algeria, for example. It's a space of all kinds of violence. It's very difficult to live there. It's not because of the weather. Now, all kinds of mafia, all kinds of crimes, you can live, you can see that. For many years in Arabic literature to also abroad that we describe the Sahara as a beautiful space, you know, it stays and romantic. And for me, it's really colonialistic. It starts with some orientalists, not all of them. Orientally, they want to describe, because for them, they discovered the Sahara the first time and it was different in that time, of course. But since many years, the Sahara is the stage of all kinds of violence that you can imagine. Very much, Ibrahim al-Kounis desert, right? Ibrahim al-Kounis is a place of violence, of confrontation and conflict. Exactly. And if I may, I'm teaching Hussain Qanafani's Men in the Sun this afternoon. And of course, the desert is a place of suffocation, right? And so weaving in this kind of literary reference here, I think we can't forget Hussain Qanafani in this respect. Absolutely, yeah. Patron, back to you. Oh, yes. Talk about the hotel already. Yes. And, yeah, you talk about the hotel already and I would like to know more about the characters, like the voices of the novel. So the characters are also narratives of this novel. So the result is like a multitude of voices. So please tell us a little bit more about your thinking about narrative voice and the effects you were trying to achieve. You made this technical choice to make a lot of voices inside. Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay, how to start. Because there are lots of people getting inside. So I will, I will, because I am always correct to be in the past, you know, because also it's really, it's crime novel, of course, but also historical, it's crime. So, okay, Marvel. So my start is October 5th, okay? In 1988. In that time, we have only single party rooms, the country and everything. It was political conditions, very difficult. For example, if you don't have one card that you are like membership of the party, you can't get any position at work or you can't have any shop, you know, just like this. It's the same as other socialist countries. That means at that time, we have only one TV, one radio. Everybody, they dress the same. Everybody, they eat the same, you know. Everybody is here in all the country, you know. I was sitting in the beginning to write this novel with one narrator, only one person. It could be more easier for me. But if I do this, I will be in contradiction of restoration. People, they are under pressure of this political system. They want to talk, they don't have room to talk. And I will also do the same. I will make the novel with one voice and I will attempt others to talk. I choose to make several narrators, several people talking inside to respect their reach to talk. Because in that time, you know what people, they wish to be, to have the microphone in the TV or radio to talk. You know, when you live in the society and the political system, maybe you forget that you are hungry or something, but you wish to talk, you know, some people, they don't know this wish for people, they live in such political situations. The only thing that I can give to these people, this generation, I give them the right to talk. So that is why I decided that everybody has the right to talk every time. Because they were many years under a single party and they don't have right even to protest. It was forbidden maybe to go. If they find five people, just five, in the same place in the street, they took them in the prison, in the jail. Because they will think that they prepare any protestation or something. So I decided to give all characters the right to talk. The only thing that I can help for them. And is this related to the Arabic storytelling tradition? One follows the other to complete a story? Everyone gives one element of the... Everyone gives an element. And the reader will make those presents to understand all of it. So everyone has an element. It's like we have one group of speakers. Everyone gives the information to make all in the end a pyramid of information to know what happened from the end depends eventually on October 5th. Yes. And also, could you please tell us about the role of cinema in this movie? Because the characters mentioned about the cinema and the visualization in this novel. Yeah. So I have also another element in the novel is one, another novel, a British novel, The Sheik of Edith Mudd-Hool. It's very novel, you know. I like it. And also, I always would describe it as a romantic novel but it's a thriller also. It's story of kidnapping is one British woman has been kidnapped in the Sahara project. So my novel, The End of the Sahara, takes the same place where it was, happened The Sheik in the same geographical area, the same place. And this novel, it has been one of the first biggest success of Hollywood because it has been adapted in the cinema with the Rodolfo Valentino as main character there. It was black and white movie that time without picking. It was in 1920, something like this, in the beginning of the last century. The biggest success of Hollywood at that time. And the movie is about Algeria, you know. I was really attracted by this story, how the biggest success of Hollywood came from my area, you know. So for me, it's interesting to talk about that. So I have all, during all this novel, we have the shadow of The Sheik. Everybody talking about the movie or about the novel. And even the novel will be the reason to, that's what character is meant to be asked by police. And then this novel is making big problems inside. So, but there is another reason. This novel, it was Orientalist novel. She described another Algeria, the beginning of the center. I wanted to, just to have like dialogue with this novel, to tell her, yeah, okay, you describe, I will describe to you another Algeria. And I will leave the reader to judge in the end, you know. It was, inside is one dialogue between two lovers. One is British and one is Algerian, but they both take place in the same area, geographic area. So in 80s, also the only thing that people, they could forget their own life, their problems is to watch movies. Before the terrorism came and black duke had, we have a lot of cinema theaters in Algeria. Then all they closed them, you know, after terrorism. So cinema, it was the only reason to, to escape from your reality at that time. That is why people, they go to watch movie, not to enjoy, but it's some kind of feeling to escape your reality. That is why they watch a lot of, and if you check, also they prefer foreign movies, not local movies. Because local movies, they are also under censorship. They don't show the reality. So they want to watch something different to forget their own life. Yeah, and this actually leads me to another question to dig into more about the character. So first I would like to know, we talk about the movies and then the character Ibrahim, he actually emerged as the sole male character in the novel who shows like appreciation of literature and film and ours in general. But he works as the owner of a video rental store. And he's like men focus is actually on the rental porn. So does he speak for the Arab like the Algerian intellectuals? Does he speak what? Does he, does he speak for Arab or Algerian intellectuals? Yeah, you know, I started the novel with the first chapter is Ibrahim in the first one. Yeah, it was like architecture. But also it was closer. You know, in that time, it started when, you know, when you have the economy, the first time Algeria had economic crisis, now the state doesn't, government has not able to control the situation. And the first time, you know, the black market developed. We see in the evening by him, he will buy one. It was gift from when his friend in the black market in the, in the novel. So when the black market started, when the state fought, the first mother is the Algerian educated people because the traders or other mafia they will come and they will take your place. So during older novel, we can see Ibrahim as the only one who is educated, who is graduated, but he is the only looser. Because in such kind of society, we don't accept you. You are suspected since you are educated and since you are, you are suspected, you know, we don't trust you. We prefer to trust somebody who is selling drugs or selling in the store or somewhere, but we don't trust somebody who is educated. You know, to be educated in that time, Algeria is really suspected, you know, we believe on some theories of conspiracy and something like that. So during older novel, I want just to talk about subgeneration of Algerian entrepreneurs, but in the same time, they are the most looser in Algeria. Yes. Yeah. As we talk about the characters in this novel, I feel like every character in the story engaged in like illicit activities. Like they made mistakes, like ranging from lying or hashish smuggling to murder. So why are all these characters in this novel flawed? Because the society was like, if they have the picture of all our social groups, you know, when you live in one area, why society varies, for example, we see all the, for example, even Ibrahim, he's like, he has videos of everything because he was not able to have a job with his employer. And everybody, we see them, they are without job. And if you have a job, you have a job because you have a job because you know the manager of the leader of this society, of this company, of this office or something. So we live in some kind of society, there is no job, there is no hope also. And all they dream to live, we have one character, he was really apprehensive by Ibrahim because he went to France and he succeeded in France. Everybody wants to integrate. So in such a society, what we expect, we expect of course crimes, we expect drugs, we expect hashish, of course. That is a human reality. I didn't create nothing. It exists like this. Yes. And we talk about that the people in the novel, they commit crimes. Is there any particular reason to pick Kamal as the murder? If there is a reason to make Kamal murder. Yes. The one reason that I talked about it all because this technique of work is the low punishment because Kamal, he lived under protection of Meymun, the manager of water. And he committed many crimes before to kill Zakiya. He never had to take or receive any kind of punishment. He feels like he can, everything is allowed for him. You know, that is also psychological theory. I didn't create this from my imagination or the fiction. One of my questions in this novel, how to become killer? How somebody in normal way has ordinary life and one day become killer. That is one psychological process. And I have a lot of, inside a lot of chapters about Kamal because Kamal is one of the important characters inside from his childhood until he became killer. How he is the only son in the family and he was under protection of Meymun. A lot of things helped him to think, he was young, to think that everything is allowed. Whatever he do, he will never be, or he will never have any punishment. He has like self-confidence to do anything. And then after what happened with Zakiya Zakwani it was also like blackmailing him with money and everything. So he did, he did by mistake. He said after that his intention was not to kill him. But he did, he did this. So it was really, if you look back the novel, it was very long, some long biography about the psychological chances of his character from childhood to become killer. And I also feel like a lot of emotional intensity happened for the characters especially for Kamal. And my last question goes back to Zaza. So he, she engages in singing and some romantic attachment and then she just like commitments. And then she gained a lot of like adoration. But she is ultimately silenced. And she met her death at the hands of the people who actually loved her before, like formally. So do you think as Zaza like a symbol of Algeria or why do you, why did you decide to make her the victim? I didn't decide to make her the victim. I am sorry for that. Sorry for that. You know, yeah, of course she's metaphorical. I think in October, in October 5, 1988, we don't have just victims instead. We have another corpus, another invisible corpus. It's Algeria corpus, you know. It was one country has been killed. And Zakiya, yeah, it's metaphor of Algeria. Because when the period of 80s also started the religious radicalism now, then we have Black Decade, 10 years of bombs and of killing every day. The first target of radicalism, the first target is women. Just to be a woman, you are an enemy of radicalism. Just to be a woman, don't do nothing. Just you are a woman. They have a big problem with women. So Zakiya, because here it's symbol also that after Zakiya, you know, thousands and thousands of women that has been killed in Algeria. Before Zakiya also, a lot of women they have. We don't have really like, a lot to protect women. During marriage or after divorce, you know. She is always with him. No thing to protect her. So Zakiya, she defended himself. She had also problems in the family, raped, you know. And after the rape, she hates all men, you know. She hates them and she keep contact with them just depending of her, what she wants or interests or benefits. But she's also symbol of this Algerian woman after independence. During the colonization, during the period of the Liberation War, the woman is here. We like the woman. Okay, they are good. They are fighting for the country for liberation. But since the country is independent, all the women has to go back home. We don't see them in the public place or in the street. That is the reason why Zakiya is really a metaphor of this generation of women. Thank you, Payton. I think we'll come back to you, Jonathan, for Ms. Kulchitam. Last question from the panel, panelist. And then we open the question, we open the forum to the audience. I think I see three questions already. Jonathan. Fantastic. So I do want to keep, be mindful of the fact that this is a novel and that novelists have a writing process. And so I'm curious about your writing process. How did you begin to put together this massive collage of a novel? Where did you start and how did you expand from there? You want me to tell you my secret? That is my secret. Zakiya, Zakiya, I think what you can do is really talk about your vision for the future of either the detective novel in Arabic or Arabic noir. Now, I am joking. I will answer this question. Of course, no question. No, no, no. Of course. Now, I don't have, you know, the writing is changing always. You know, you start one chapter and second and after that and then you stop and you change. It was what you can make plan. You can have some idea, of course. But the process, of course, first, searching, as you said before, archives that it took a lot, a lot of time for me. It took a lot of time, also. And the writing and the second part is a lot of psychological searches, you know, to understand the psychological of, because it's not just to say for either that somebody is killing somebody. You know, for me, psychology is more important, you know, before writing. You have to understand the cycle. Why we kill? Why? We explain somebody, there must be something more deeper, more inside, in the human psychology. So, I divided all my characters, you know, in my like files, you know. I made like, I can't say what I think plan, but psychological plan. Yes. I'm had to, whatever they do, it must be logical with the psychology. It's not been logical with the history, but with the psychology, because everyone has different history than the second one. So, am I allowed to abuse my position as chair and ask you about psychology and psychology of the criminal, but I'm more interested in, for example, what you think of the Mahfouz psychology of the not terror, is the interrogator, right? Someone who punishes, right, uses torture, torture, torture prison sort of prisoners. I mean, what do you think of it? Is it just out of curiosity? What do you think of Nakeem Mahfouz? And the other one, let's start with there. I have so much Nakeem Mahfouz, you know. I read, I can read the same now a lot of times, you know. A lot of times, and every time is different feeling, you know. And his Freudian psychology, of course, and set up, right? Exactly. Nakeem Mahfouz, for me, is one of idol, I think. Maybe some people, they took Nakeem Mahfouz just in the technique, Nakeem Mahfouz only in this realistic writing about area, about things in Cairo, for me, how he was really you know, smart to make connection between characters, transition between event, for me, to read Nakeem Mahfouz is a great creative writing course. You know, you don't need to go to school to for creative writing, but you have just to read with your passion, with love and with passion Nakeem Mahfouz. Yeah, I also think of Nakeem Mahfouz as the best theorist of the novel, right? He's the best. If you want someone to find a theory of the novel, Nakeem Mahfouz is the person who will give you theory of the novel, especially the Arabic novel. Now, speaking of Mahfouz, there's a question from our audience, right? That sort of like brings Nakeem Mahfouz to mind as well, right? His Mariah. In the way of writing, this is from Sami Habbati, I'm sorry if I'm not pronouncing your name correctly. We notice a sort of polyphonic dimension in each chapter where every persona is the narrator of that chapter. Is it a game of mirrors by the writer Mariah, L'Abbat al-Mariah? Does this reflect a different way every part of the novel conceives conceives the truth? Right? So this is from another question. So this is the second part of the question from the same person. The end of the novel seems to be open. Would we expect a next part of the novel in the future, a sequel? Oh, thank you Sami for this question. Yes, it's polyphonic novel because as I said before, October 5 people, they were just, they wish to talk that I try to give them the right to talk, to expect their wishes to expect what they want. So I want to, that everybody had, everybody has right to talk because before October 5 nobody has the right to talk. About the end, yes, it's the end and I think I don't expect another another volume of this. No, I don't expect that too. Yes, because our history also doesn't end. Our history is also open. It doesn't know the end of this past. So for me, I don't think that I will return back for another volume for this now. So what's next? Saeed. What is next? I am I usually I don't know because as I said before the process can change or I think I'm still writing, of course, but I don't know what could be the result of your food in the end. But I am still interested by the history of my country of my area in North Africa and what is happening there. I am I'm making a lot of searches and I want to be something to work harder to take your time to be to be in the same level that the reader expects from you. Great. Now this is like this one is a very light question from Mariam Sami and this reminds me of my childhood. Have you read any Al Ghaz right? I guess these are cartoons and translated which is a famous detective genre in Egypt, the famous Al Ghaz one. I don't know whether you remember these. In one major series five children and the dog saw big crimes like murder, kidnapping and smuggling. So this is just a question. Have you read Al Ghaz series? I think these were translated. Al Ghaz? I can't remember the it might be too young for it. When I was growing up I read those. Sami I don't remember the answer but in Egypt they have a lot of experience of crime fiction but some of them they were some only commercials but but for me one of as I said before is the thief and the dogs we don't talk a lot about this novel. It was a great novel for me and it was one of the great affairs in Arabic literature and I am really I read a lot of Egyptian literature of course and I like Egyptian so sometimes I don't remember the name or the title but I read a lot from Egypt. Sounds good. Okay, any more questions? Jonathan, Payton if you have anything like you would like to add before we conclude today's session Saeed anything you would like to say? Thank you so much. Jonathan, Payton Thank you very much. It's a really wonderful panel. Thank you so much. I had such a fun time as well. What happened to Saeed? He left. Okay, so everyone thank you again for coming and thank you Saeed for letting us interrogate you and thank you Jonathan and Payton for taking part in this interrogation. So I'll see you next year I hope. See you. Bye. Thank you so much again for coming. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.