 This is Mises Weekends with your host, Jeff Dice. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back once again. It's Mises Weekends. We're joined in studio by our friend from across the street at Auburn University, Dr. Liliana Stern, who obtained her PhD at the University of Indiana. Liliana, it's great to see you. Pleasure being here. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, well, obviously we know a lot of people on the faculty at Auburn, and we interact. Dr. Solerno and Dr. Thornton both teach there from time to time, but it's great to have you in studio, and it's great to have you talking about our topic this week, which is millennials and socialism, and whether socialism is regaining a foothold in the West, or whether it ever really lost one. First and foremost, just tell us a little bit about your own background. Born in Ukraine, and you live there as a girl, and you live there through the collapse of the former Soviet Union, what was your childhood like? Well, I was born in the Soviet Union. Ukraine, which was one of the 15 republics, and I was still there when it all collapsed, and in 1991, when Ukraine was one of the first republics to gain independence, I guess, and everybody else followed. So I witnessed all of the mess that followed after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and I moved to the United States when I was 24 years old. So I've been living here since 2000. So we were talking off camera, that in your childhood, you thought of yourself as a Russian citizen, not as a Soviet citizen, not as a Ukrainian, whereas in the United States, people have an identity based on Texas or where they're from, and that you felt that the Soviet Union would have discouraged any sort of Ukrainian nationalism. Yes, they try. I think that's one of the things that they try to do is just kind of discourage all these 15 republics keeping their national identity. So everybody was a Soviet citizen, so they tried to equalize everybody, so they all equal, we are all Soviet citizens. So there was no Ukrainian identity, Moldovan or Belorussian, so we are all the citizens of the Soviet Union. So I think in that way, they kind of tried to keep the masses under control, I guess, so that you don't identify with something else, so you're all citizens of the Soviet Union. Growing up, what were your conceptions of capitalism and did you consider your economy communist or did you have another conception of it? The conceptions that we had primarily came from textbooks and the stories they were telling us, which means brainwashing us, and later on, when it was getting close to the collapse of the Soviet Union, when some Americans were brave enough to come since I spoke fluent English at that time, I spoke to some just people, American people, and I figured out very quickly, so all the stories we were told were very untrue, like little kids, you know, slaving around, working in a sweatshop. That was the main thing that was in every textbook in elementary school. So the stories of evil capitalists, you know, enslaving little children and the main, I think, propaganda was that we were so lucky because we got to go to school and get education and then, you know, in the evil capitalist world, children did not have this opportunity that we had, so instead they had to work 12 hours a day and there was this like cartoons of children slaving around in sweatshops. So also pictures of like homeless people on the street, people starving, and so that was, but then I don't remember when I met the first American, it was probably like 1989 or 88, he was an older guy, I think he was like a retired school teacher, he was just traveling, had some family, and I just wanted to, I don't know, speak, I guess English was someone with a native speaker, and so we started speaking, talking to him a little bit and he was just telling me, you know, I asked him about sweatshops and little kids, like having to work whenever eight or nine years old and he's like, there is nothing like that, it's not true. So that was my first kind of shock. So I think I figured out that everything we were told were not true, that was all propaganda, and then of course later on when I met more people from Europe and also American, you know, figured out more and more that how brainwashed we were and all the lies we were told about the evil capitalist world. Well, during your childhood, did you feel materially deprived or did things seem normal to you in terms of your standard of living? I think, I don't think I was deprived, I guess, because we did not realize how much things we were probably deprived of, if that makes sense. That, you know, we had food and we had shelter, we lived in like ugly, you know, government built apartment, so we had an apartment to live in and we had like basic food, so basic needs for satisfied. So we didn't realize that I guess, you know, we were deprived of many other opportunities. So when you kind of live in this bubble, you don't know how things are outside of it, you don't even realize how bad you have it. Right, but did you have a sense growing up of upward mobility or opportunity in life or did you feel like societies are very closed in that you were going to have a certain standard of living and that was it? No, we pretty much grew up thinking that, you know, this is it, like, we're just gonna stay here and this is how your life will be. So you look at your parents and your grandparents and we did not think of anything else, any other opportunities, you know, later on when there was like something in the air that, you know, it may all collapse, you know, the Soviet Union, then we probably start thinking, in my case, I was just, I wanted to go somewhere and get education and travel, so that was my main thing because I think I was just very curious to see how are the other countries, I would like to go to Europe. We went to Poland and Czech Republic, but that, you know, just the Soviet block, Eastern European and Central, but my mom went to Germany, it was East Germany, but still when she came back, she was just, she was, you know, she had a great time and I guess even Eastern Germany was much better than Soviet Union. So she came back with a lot of memories and she was very impressed with everything and then I guess she was telling us and that's where I got these, you know, ideas that like one day maybe I'll be able to travel maybe even study somewhere else in some different country. But when I was young, we didn't even think, I mean, it's pretty much like anything else did not exist. So it was just Soviet Union and you just lived in this country and you like, you would not be able to go anywhere else. So, you know, you have to stay here all your life and this is how your life is going to be. So was it a result of moving to the United States or reading certain books or certain thinkers that made you become friendly towards free markets and capitalism or was it a natural evolution? How did that occur? Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, I've just got this opportunity to get my master's degree from American program in Ukraine and that's kind of opened up my mind because all my professors were Americans and they were all very friendly and they were all very helpful and like mentors. So they were telling us like, you guys are so smart. You should go, you know, explore the world and come get your PhDs. So I think this is when I kind of got exposed to American culture and being around a lot of Americans. And then I was, we were just hanging out and like going to American embassies or there were parties, so they invited us. So we kind of integrated a little bit in that small American community in key of Ukraine. And then, you know, I got really curious and wanted to apply to graduate schools. And I guess when I started like hanging out with American people, that's when I realized how messed up our system was and that we were brainwashed and like 90% of things we were told about the Western world were not true, we're just lies. So, but I think it was a slow process, you know, just like even like today, I discover some things and I look back and I kind of analyze. Well, so fast forward, you get your PhD in economics at Indiana, you become a professor of eventually here at Auburn. What do you think of the American kids you teach, the undergrads, I know you teach macro and money and banking. What's your impression of them? Do they understand capitalism? Do they understand communism? Do they have a sense of how lucky they are? Most of them don't. And that's what I'm trying to change a little bit. So I tell them stories from the Soviet Union and my experience, and I teach over 500 undergraduate students every year, so large sections. And I try to talk to them, which I think is very shocking to them because they don't expect this from a professor in a large section. So they expect someone to come read of PowerPoints and then they don't expect a professor to walk around and ask them questions. And like, what do you guys think? And especially if I give them examples from Soviet Union and I was like, why do you think there wasn't a production of chewing gum in Ukraine when I talked about, you know, different markets, different economic system and they, so they kind of taken it back a little bit, so it takes them a while to start, you know, talking back to me. But what I find is that most of them just take everything for granted and they don't realize how lucky they are. But a lot of them, after they take my class, they would, you know, come to my office the following semester and say like, thank you so much for all these stories. You opened up my mind so much. You changed my perspectives in life. And I figured out that we are very lucky and that I never thought about the opportunities we have, but you told us that, guys, you're so lucky. A lot of people like don't have like 50% of the opportunities you have in this country. And I said, some people saying that an opportunity they, most of them just lazy, they don't want to explore those opportunities. And I say, if a girl from a Soviet Union had an opportunity to come here and get a PhD with having zero family members with $500 in my pocket, I was 24 year old, which is by American standards, very young. Then you have all opportunities you can only dream of. So, but a lot of them, they don't realize that. I mean, they don't even think about it. They just, I don't think they have this, you know, they can analyze things. They just, okay, yeah, we have water. And I was like, did you think that not all, everybody has water, hot water all the time, even today in Ukraine, you know, my parents have, they go back, they got hot water two hours per day, I think. So one hour in the morning when everybody getting ready for work, one hour in the evening. And then cold water is also Russian. So it's natural gas and electricity. And it's not just Ukraine, a lot of other countries. And they, some of them will say that I made all these scary stories up about the socialism. So I'm trying to scare them and I exaggerate. Yeah, so I got comments like that. But most of them will believe me and they tell, like, thank you for making me rethink things and for making, for changing the perspectives. And, but I did get some comments saying that, you know, oh, she just makes up these scary stories about growing up in the Soviet Union. Wow. Like I tell them, you know, about socialized healthcare. And I said that, well, raise your hand if you wanna have a root canal done without any anesthetic. And they were like, oh, what? I said, well, I had it done. And they like, you know, some people won't believe it. And I said, I know it's hard to believe. And then, but those who are smart, they would say like, they would ask questions. Like, why couldn't you have any anesthetic? I said, because the government decided who gets anesthetic, they were rationed and only people got painkillers and anesthetics for major surgeries, like heart surgeries, abdominal surgeries. There was no painkillers used in dental care whatsoever in the Soviet Union. I said, here you go to the dentist. Some people have different sensitivity levels. If you need to get two shots, you pay money and they give you, they numb your mouth for three days. You won't feel anything. In the Soviet Union, you did not have the choice. So I tell them it was like an execution camera, you know, like medieval execution. I said, I finally overcame fears of dentists here. And it took me like five years. I was just panically afraid of dentists. So some of them say I made it up and it never happened. You know, and stories like that. So they don't believe, but most of them will believe it and they, you know, they would be like, wow, we never knew this was going on, you know. That's a great story right there. You should bring your parents in to give a lecture about the Cold War era in the Soviet Union. I bet that would be a great learning experience. Well, we're talking about millennials and kids. I don't know if you saw this poll that came out the other day claiming that about 44% of millennials' most popular socioeconomic order was socialism. This was a study conducted by the Victims of Communist Memorial Foundation. What do you think about that when you hear it? What was the percentage? About 44%. They favor like socialism. Would you choose socialism as a socioeconomic system? Is that shock you or does that make sense? It makes sense to me because I teach so many of these young kids and what I find a little bit shocking how uncapable they are surviving in real world. They kind of live in their little bubble and a lot of them, you know, moms keep track of their exams and assignments. Even in college? Yeah. They would call me and ask, like, how is Johnny doing in your class? I was like, sorry, ma'am, I cannot discuss it with you. It's a private student. So parents of undergraduates call you? Yeah. Or don't be too hard on my son because his dad and I are going through the wash. I don't even know who your son is. I have 300 students or, I mean, yeah, I had multiple parents call me. So it's a result of helicopter parenting, I think, I see a big fold of nowadays parents being just too protective and like not preparing them for real life. So, you know, just, I don't know, acting around their kids like they are five-year-old when they are 20 or 25. And these kids, they just, a lot of them just completely detached from reality, I think, and they are not prepared to deal with any kind of emotional stress or anything like that. So they just, they break down like anything. It's like, I even make jokes in my class. I was like, everybody is offended by everything nowadays. I say, you know, you can't even say anything. You can't say Merry Christmas. You can't say this. It's ridiculous. And I tell people, my relatives, you know, died in Siberian camps. You think I care? You get offended by something I say. Just like to me, it's very, it's ridiculous. But it's true. A lot of them are just so fragile and they can't handle any real life, serious situation, I think. So I am not surprised by the fact that they favor socialism because they think since they are not capable of dealing with anything, they just think of someone else should take care of their problem. Either it's a mom or a dad, a mom who calls the professor and keeps track of the exams, wakes them up for the exams. Oh, my mom forgot to wake me up for your exam. That's an excuse. So they think, I'm not surprised at all because they think that, you know, someone else should take care of their problem. Someone else should make decisions for them. Let me ask you this. How would you respond to critics who say, well, Liliana, that may be true in an authoritarian system like Russia, the former Soviet Union where you grew up. But what about Scandinavian countries? In other words, soft socialism, it doesn't have to be authoritarianism and socialism can work. The social markets economy, I think that's what people economists like to call them, right, like Sweden and I guess UK have some elements of it like social life, healthcare. But I have very close friends who live in those countries and they're all very unhappy with the system. And essentially what they told me that it's just the same problems that they experienced growing up in the Soviet Union. Hospitals, Sweden, UK, awful. You get any serious problems, you cannot see a specialist. So I had a student actually from Indiana who was going to San Andrews College, which is a very elite, I think all the royal family go. So he's from a very wealthy family from New Orleans. He had some serious condition, asthma and something else, chronic condition. He just could not see a doctor. So his parents had to buy him tickets, lay him back to Louisiana. So, and I have other examples like that. One of my friends from Ukraine went to get PhD at the Stockholm School of Economics. So essentially telling me the same things, especially about healthcare, that it's just the same problems. Long lines, you come, you waste all you die to see a doctor and then you cannot see anybody. And then the quality of care you get is just not, it's not the famous you get in the United States, for example. What do you think then about this trend, which I think is growing of voices advocating single payer healthcare in the United States? People don't know what a disaster it could be. I just think people, I don't want to sound like rude, but I think a lot of people just ignorant and they don't know. You need to tell them. What does that mean? I do tell them. I tell my students, I said, you have no idea, guys. Let me tell you, and you know, I never give some examples from some textbook. I give them some crazy formula or graph. I just tell them my personal examples. I said, this is an example of how it's gonna be. And I tell them, this is an example, you have everything controlled by the government. You don't have basic goods like dental floss. I said, I've never heard of dental floss before I came to this country. And to use this is such a basic thing. It's just, you know, personal hygiene item that you don't even think twice about it. It's like it always existed. But I said, why didn't they have it in the Soviet Union because the government control all the funds, right? So they put all the funds into making, I don't know, some bomb or something to fight evil capitalists instead of making chewing gum for kids or making dental floss for people. So I think in many cases when people say, oh, we would like social, they just don't really know what that system means and what it's gonna mean in terms of their lifestyle. They've never lived in a system like that. They probably heard something from someone and it just sounds like an attractive option. Well, someone solve all my problems. The government will make all decisions for me. And I think that's why millennials, it's so popular because they're just not capable of making any decisions and dealing with real life situations. So I think if there is someone kind of like a parenting figure, you know, it used to be mom and dad. Now it's gonna be whoever, a government who makes decisions for me. But this isn't an abstraction necessarily. Bernie Sanders by some accounts almost beat Hillary Clinton as the nominee for the Democratic Party last time around. And Trump is not exactly a free marketer either. So does it worry you having come from an Eastern country that now in the West, we seem to be trending in the wrong direction? Yes, a lot. So I tell people all the time, it's just, it's very worrisome to me that like, I was trying to get away from that whole system. I came over here and it's very scary for me to see that it's kind of following me and all these, that people actually wanted. I was like, I tried so hard to go overseas to get away from this whole system. And it's really scary to me that, you know, it will may all come here that becoming so popular here. Final question for you. I know you have three young boys. Yes. Do you talk to them about your childhood experiences and do you try to create in them an attitude of gratitude for all the abundance in America? All the time. And I think I try to remind them that they are very lucky and how many opportunities they have like that I didn't have growing up. So I just try to remind them especially when, you know, like Christmas time. And then they tell me like, oh, such and such friend got this $1,000 toy and I keep reminding them that I didn't have any of this stuff and I didn't grow up, you know, a bad person. This stuff doesn't matter. Just materialistic things. And in terms of opportunities, just I was thinking about that because they've been playing tennis for a while. So my oldest one, like for three years and I just started taking lessons because now I just sit at the court with them. Always wanted to know how to play tennis. So I started taking lessons this summer. And of course they've been playing for two years. So they stand and laugh at me and mama, you're so bad. You don't know how to play. And I said, boys, I did not have the opportunities that you have. It's not funny. So just think about it. Your mom is over 40 years old and now, you know, I can learn things that you are learning at such young age. My parents did not have money to give me all the private swimming lessons, tennis lessons, piano lessons that you all have, you know, you can take here. And to them, so I just, you know, try to remind them every day that I was not as lucky as they are. And I didn't have that many opportunities. And I think sometimes they make fun of me that I always like to take classes and learn. I take a lot of like open outreach classes. So, you know, I have too many hobbies. I do flower arranging. I do Ikebana, which is Japanese flower arranging. I do photography and all these things I learned here. I've taken, you know, the cake decorating class and I just tell them like, I did not have these opportunities when I was young that a lot of kids have in this country. That's why I'm so, you know, hungry for knowledge because I see these opportunities now that I can learn so many different things. So it's just really exciting to me, but even my own boys, you know, I keep reminding them that you're very lucky. They are lucky and with their mom and dad, both being Econ PhD professors, I'm sure they won't be lacking for brain power. Liliana Stern, Dr. Stern, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for having me. Ladies and gentlemen, have a great weekend. Subscribe to Mises Weekends via iTunes U, Stitcher and SoundCloud, or listen on Mises.org and YouTube.