 Hello and welcome to this click. Today, we are going to discuss the finals, maybe the final stage of the CBI saga, where Mr. Alok Verma has again been shunted out as a result of the APEX committee, which had been entrusted with taking a decision on it. We have Justice Sikri, who seemed to have sided with the government on this, and Marika Arjun Kharge, the opposition leader, who is submitted as dissent. Joining with us is Paranjay Guhatakutta, known commentator and a journalist, Ravi Nayar, who has been commenting on various cases for us, including the Rafal case. Paranjay, if you look at it, in terms of what would be called the norms of office, that if there are something which seems to show that there could be a basis for inquiry against you, you should not be holding office. And the CBC seems to have given the report, there are certain allegations which have been made, which therefore go against Mr. Verma, and therefore he has been shunted out to the fire department or some such thing. Now, how do you see this playing out, particularly in the context, that this has been a very high profile case involving, as we know, various officials in the CBI, Mr. Nageshwara, who now takes over, also has allegations against him. Mr. Astana may be brought back, we do not know, he has allegations against him. So, how do you see this in the context of all this allegation? Do you think that actually CBI is now an institution which has been so deeply wounded, that anything it does is now going to lack credibility? I completely agree with that last part of what you said. The CBI, which is supposed to be India's premier investigating agency, the police agency, an armed force, is today its credibility is arguably at its lowest ever, historically. Now, one can look at what is unprecedented about what has happened. Some things have never happened before and what has happened in recent weeks has been unprecedented. The manner in which the director of the CBI was asked to leave his office, made to go on leave, middle of the night, absolutely. The manner in which the second in command, special director Rakesh Astana also had to be, not continue in that post. The way in which allegations have been traded by these two top officers against each other and then the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court comes in, reinstates in a sense Mr. Varma and in barely 48 hours, the committee comprising the Prime Minister of India, in this case the emissary of the Chief Justice of India Justice Sikri and the leader of the largest party in opposition Malikarjun Kharke. Justice Sikri and the Prime Minister on one side, Mr. Kharke is on the other side and so in this 48 hours, all that Mr. Varma done has been now undone. He reinstated all the people who had been suddenly transferred and what the Supreme Court had said that he can't take any policy decision but now that's the end of the story. Why did this happen? Why did this happen is the big question. Was it because there was apprehension that he might register a preliminary inquiry in the nature of a first information report on the Rafale case? The counter question could be what Mr. Arun Shori, Mr. Yashwant Sena, Prashant Bhushan, the complaints that they had made to him was many weeks ago, many months ago. Why did he not act then? Were they fearing that he would act now? At one level the government seems to have stuck to process so he's been merely transferred. His term as the CBI director would have ended at the end of January. He's been transferred, home guards, fire services, etc. But that's on the surface. I think beneath the surface there's a lot that is being speculated about which is unsaid. Mr. Varma himself has gone on record. He issued a statement to the Press Trust of India, through the Indian Express, among others saying that he believes the allegations against him are unfounded. That one individual is responsible for these allegations. Now he doesn't name anybody. Everybody presumes it's Mr. Asthana. Some people say behind Mr. Asthana there are other important people including the National Security Advisor, Mr. Ajit Doval. Everybody knows Mr. Asthana's proximity to the Prime Minister from his days in Gujarat. All of it has become so murky. It's unbelievable that it could become so murky. Everybody is now questioning why didn't Mr. Varma defend himself earlier when he was given an opportunity before the Central Vigilance Commissioner because the Supreme Court had said the CBC would look into it under the supervision of a retired Supreme Court judge Justice Patnaik. All of these have... I mean everybody is trying to give her or his own spin to it. But at the end of the day the CBI as an organization, its credibility is arguably at its lowest ever in the history of this organization. I mean before I get to the Aloh Varma issue, which is of course the one which is in the headlines of all the papers today. What happens to Mr. Asthana and Mr. Nagesho Rao as a consequence of this shall be said step and what would happen to the... which allegations as well as some credible evidence which Mr. Sinha I think the DIG had filed in the Supreme Court on the Mohen Kureshi case and the relationship with Mr. Asthana and certain other officers which raised issues that there was really credible evidence against a Asthana and as we know this latest round is of course a continuation really of the Asthana issue. More than what happens to Asthana what we have to think is so by this order which included Justice Sikri and the prime minister on one side and Mr. Malikarjun Karge on the other side as the opposition leader they reinstated Nagesho Rao and this is acting director and this is this is serious allegation there are serious allegations against Nagesho Rao. There are serious cases of I mean serious allegation of wrongdoings against Nagesho Rao himself. Then I mean if Aloh Varma has been transferred to keep the integrity of the organization it's if it is you know it's the clean out then why Nagesho Rao and in the case of Asthana Mr. Sinha M.K. Sinha when he submitted the federal evidence Supreme Court he clearly stated that there are transcripts of telephone conversation between him and various people. Him meaning Asthana. Asthana right and various various people and Mohen Kureshi case and the related things right and and one of the accused in that case himself filed the case with CBI that of harassment by Asthana. Yes may I just briefly here intervene and say according to this unsigned note attributable to sources in the Ministry of Home Affairs which was sent to journalists on WhatsApp late last night it was mentioned that the CBI found evidence of influencing of investigation in the Mohen Kureshi case there was also evidence of taking a bribe of two crore presumably by those close to Mr. Aloh Varma and the CBC was of the view that his conduct in the case is suspicious and there is a prima facie case against him and the CBC also felt that the entire truth will come out if a criminal investigation is ordered. No but in that case if you look at the replay which is there already in public domain from Mr. Kharkis at the descent note which he gave and that he is listing all the 10 allegations and six of them include this Mohen Kureshi case it's not substantiated and the majorly one which they say it's you know thoughtful is the IRCD's case otherwise almost all there are no I mean just they are saying circumstantial evidences there are no other evidence for them. One minute as the Home Ministry has alleged in this unsigned note attributable to sources it says that in the this railway case the Indian Railway Catering and Tourism Corporation IRCTC case the CBC felt that it had to be reasonably concluded that Sri Varma deliberately excluded a name from the first information report for reasons best known to him. Now here once again we are talking about a case concerning Lalu Prasad Yadav who is right now behind bars. In fact that is where a lot of flak really did come about that why Mr. Varma not proceeding against Mr. Yadav and his family in the IRCTC case and what I remember at that time what was said was that there is not enough grounds for this this has been vetted by the legal department. Alok Verma said that he started a preliminary inquiry preliminary investigation into that before filing an FIR and there was not enough evidence to substantiate those allegations to file an FIR against them. Okay now again what Mr. Mallikaar Karge has said that there is in the allegation that there is exclusion of a suspect from being named as an accused in an FIR in the IRCTC case the allegation has been substantiated but it amounts to serious misconduct in warrants disciplinary and other actions. This is the findings and the what has not been substantiated is that Mr. Verma allegedly tried to call off searches raids in Patna. In other words as a layperson is Mr. Verma being accused of indirectly favoring Mr. Lalu Prasad Yadav and is that the reason why all this is happening? Okay let us go to the basic question these allegations how come all these then allegations came all in a sudden after October 4th. On October 4th Prashan Bhushan Mr. Prashan Bhushan Eshwant Sinha and Mr. Arun Sury they filed a complaint with CBI alleging that there are serious corruption center file where the prime minister's office themselves are involved prime minister himself is involved. On October 23rd everyone calls it a midnight coup even I would like to call it a midnight coup Verma has been shunted out. Okay it's very interesting it's very interesting and if I can again intervene here Ravi why I don't want to you want to continue this is what Mr. Kharge has said the central vigilance commissioners to KB Choudhary was scheduled to go on a tour on Denmark on the 23rd of October in that evening he abruptly and preemptively without assigning any reasons cancels the tour at the last moment holds a meeting of the CVC at night the central vigilance commission at 11 p.m. on the 23rd of October Nageshwar Rao joint director of the CBI is asked to go to the headquarters in anticipation of an order of the CVC 11 30 p.m. on the 23rd of October the Delhi police commissioner calls his staff to Khan market and alerts them about a potential midnight operation around midnight around 12 a.m. he receives instructions from the national security advisor Mr. Kharge is mentioning the NSA's name he doesn't mention Mr. Dovalbari name but everybody knows who's the national security advisor he is supposedly received instructions to take over the CBI headquarters and the officials of the central industrial security force attempt to prevent them from entering the CBI headquarters this is information which we didn't know about they are instructed ostensibly at the behest of the prime minister's office and the national security advisor and between 8 p.m. and 12 30 p.m. these orders are issued between 12 30 a.m. and 1 p.m. the CVC orders rushed to north block to secretary personnel sweet chandra mauli who from some who for some strange reason continues to be in his office after midnight and then Mr. Chandra mauli then rushes to the PMO where the cabinet committee on appointments headed by the honorable prime minister is waiting to give approval to the CVC's order and the order is issued at and 2 30 a.m. the central vigilance commissioner additional secretary department of personnel and training she look run gen visits the CBI headquarters and comes out with the joint director Nageshwar Rao with files and records according to Mr. Kharge these facts need to be verified and ascertained yeah more than verifying it should be investigated so what is the point here why was such a hurry to in that midnight on 23rd midnight if you remember on 23rd by afternoon people start to tweet that CBI might file an FIR or or they want to inquire on the Rafale Rafale file based on the complaints by these three million personalities right 23rd midnight this happened no more than one minute between the 4th of October and the 23rd why didn't Mr. Alok Verma act that is the counter question because the matter of just two weeks you know all right let's sort of ask this question that what triggered this action against Mr. Verma this credible you know evidence maybe Mr. Kharge said that maybe there are extraneous considerations like the Rafale deal could be could be other reasons we don't know the question before us is really at this stage procedures that after all since we are not sitting on the content of these issues we are looking at the procedures being followed and it does seem that the CVC and the government the senior officials of the government including the prime minister acted together to remove the CBI head in a way which the Supreme Court held was not in line with of the law but this was not the law this is not the way it should he should have been removed without commenting on whether the removal was right or not was it warranted not it is a procedural issue before the court now it's also interesting the court took two and a half months to give an order on a violation of the procedure which is really for the Supreme Court 77 days should have been actually a 10 minute job the procedures had been violated it was clear this is their judgment maybe one day two days but the procedural violation could have been corrected in the Supreme Court and then justice go away no just hold the Supreme Court corrects the procedural violation but tags on the CVC issue to it CVC report to it which has not the substantive point in law in terms of the procedural violation okay now two issues are linked which were not actually linked if CVC has something to say of course there is a way of doing it but removal in this in violating the procedure was not the way to do it unfortunately the linking was done by the Supreme Court and it's also interesting Supreme Court deputed Justice Sikri for it we are not going to question why Justice Sikri instead of Chief Justice which is what the procedure was or should we question whether the Supreme Court reluctantly reinstated Mr. Lok Verma you know again I am not going to go into what was in their minds because that would need shall we say powers we don't have and you might commit you might commit contempt of court but all all I am arguing is that here is a procedural violation now if the content is being used to shall we say overcome the procedural violation at the end of it after two and a half months what we really have is Mr. Lok Verma had a one day tenure and we have somebody who has also been tainted Mr. Nageshwar Rao is still in charge of CBI if issue of taint while holding office is an issue why Mr. Rao then and Mr. Astana against whom credible evidence seems to have been there according to Mr. Sinha's petition before the Supreme Court as well as other evidences we have to see what Mr. Astana's fate is A B is also interesting there were six charges against Mr. Astana now there is only one under Mr. Nageshwar Rao's tenure the second issue is what about the people who Mr. Verma brought back in his one day tenure this current one and what about the people who Mr. Astana's people who actually had the run of the CBI till now what happens to them these are questions which need to be answered because you know we cannot sit in judgment whether Mr. Verma whether the allegations something right or something wrong we are really talking about A the institution itself which is CBI we are talking of the procedural violations which the Supreme Court has confirmed we are talking of the undue hurry on october 23rd we can also talk of the undue hurry in which Mr. Verma could have only a 12 hour shall we say tenure less than 48 hours 36 hours 36 hours I'm counting the waking hours and it's also interesting that when you look at this even this meeting was very hurried he was given there were seven days time given that's right the prime minister precisely found two days of time from his extremely busy schedule as you know he has a lot of foreign travel he didn't have time to attend the parliament if you look at the last session how many days he came to the parliament at the last day at nine o'clock he came to the parliament he didn't have time he was busy with his election speeches parent yeah he was he was so busy and his foreign travels also taken exact yeah and and and and uh as per the information what I have uh Mr. Malik Arjun Khargay informed the PMO that he will not be available for two three days on some he had to travel out of daily for personal reasons and he has been insisted that he must come on very next day the court has given a seven days window but the meeting took place at the very next day and without providing the details of CVC report to that's correct because there were two sets of meetings yes and in the first meeting Mr. Khargay said where are the papers he didn't have anything to discuss now there is one more point on on yesterday's meeting it says that whatever the replay which uh Mr. Alok Verma has given to the CVC that was not distributed I'm sure just once again once again Ravi the Home Ministry is actually saying Mr. Verma was given an opportunity to respond but he did not respond is that correct you look at you see that's the earlier one when CVC had asked him to give a response then he was supposedly not given his response three times that was the argument he was given three times an opportunity to respond by the CVC which didn't respond that's an earlier issue the what Ravi is referring to is in the meeting yesterday exactly Mr. Verma's reply to CVC was not circulated and from what you told me that apparently Markandey Karju Justice Markandey Karju has said something about that one minute in a Facebook post Mr. Markandey Justice Markandey Karju retired claims that he spoke to his brother judge and that is Justice Sikri and with his permission he is putting forth what he thinks are justice what he says are Justice Sikri's views namely that Mr. Alok Verma was merely transferred that a person can be transferred if there are some allocations against him without hearing what he has to say and it's only in a question of a case being closed or a person being dismissed or a person even being suspended then it becomes I mean the principles of natural justice prevail yes but but enjoy then my question is Mr. Nageshwar Rao himself is I mean there are a lot of allegations against Mr. Nageshwar Rao himself you know I would like to take a different question stance on this issue is not a routine transfer or a routine allegation we are talking about the CBI head we are talking of the CBI Nageshwar Rao right now is the head till the interim head till the new director is appointed but still as of now he's the head so we already talked about Mr. Nageshwar Rao why is he there what I'm saying is Justice Sikri with due apologies to the judiciary Justice Sikri seems to be taking it as a routine transfer we have talked of CBI if what he has been attributed to him by Justice Kajju Kajju is right precisely the question is if this is to be taken at phase value it seems we are not we are missing the complete context which is that the CBI is in a deep crisis three of its top officials are under the scanner various allegations are flying around cases have been filed in the Supreme Court and probably let me add even there is one one more thing you know what I mean with this with this case the CBI is split vertically into two if you look at it all why is that we are lucky if we are lucky we don't know how many more groups it bites please exactly and just as a matter of record two former directors of the CBI are also currently being investigated by the CBI itself Ranjeet Sinha and and and this was apc one in the Moyin-Kureshi case the other in the the coal gate etc the his guest register yes please continue now that is Astana only on the guest register is Astana Sinha Ranjeet Sinha that's what I'm saying Ranjeet Sinha and and Mr apc yes so you know we in this context what shall we see it's extremely innocent of justice secret to say well this is a routine transfer what's the big deal about it and it really means that either he is not if it is true he is not understanding the significance of these decisions for the policy of this country as well as for CBI see this this the stance prime minister and justice secret has taken yesterday would have been justified if this was some other person instead of Nageshwarao a person without I mean who's who's not tainted by any allegations if that's the reason for them to transfer I look Burma so there should have been some other person not Nageshwarao let me play devil's advocate BJP leader Mr. Baluni is now saying that you know why didn't Mr. Kharge recuse himself because he had earlier he had earlier opposed the appointment of Mr. Lok Burma and and that you know that that was and and now he's that's that's that's that's actually a very sad point you know now they are just actually this question raises the debate is not about the question is not about one single individual right it's not who is Alok Burma Alok Burma's position the position he held that does matter and if Kharge descended that descent I mean as far as my understanding reading his descent no my yeah descent my understanding is that he is questioning the the process which led to his ouster all right yeah I don't even understand how the two are related why you know his appointment just hold on Mr. Kharge might have felt he was not suited to be the director of CBI it does not mean therefore removal of spurious grounds cannot be opposed absolutely correct that's why I'm saying this is schoolboy level of debate but this is what about three of the worst kind but this is this is how the whole matter is being sought to be obfuscated by the ruling regime apology we know that the noise which comes from the television channels and from the BJP in different ways is basically to obfuscate the issues and prevent a serious discussion of the issues themselves so we get lost in what about three why did you not do anything the what is it the tukre tukre brigade all of us are the anti-national brigade questioning this is just like questioning the PM is questioning the nation all of these bogus you know it's just like just like now there's the BJP IT cell trolls if you if you just tend to any debate is and what happened in Malta so it's just like another question so what happened what who committed the original sin we have to go back there you see so we are not going we are not going biblically the crux of the matter is it's it's we have to really look what happened on 23rd on 23rd if the allegations were the main reason the cvc report is nothing new it's not it's not that it just came on 23rd October it was there why didn't the government why didn't the PMO under which cbi comes in right why didn't act then and if they had to act why there was a there's a so-called midnight coup at 12 30 right on that on that time if why i do why didn't they yes why didn't they call the committee then right let's let's say and why should one more one more thing why should why should nsa why should nsa call what is the role of nsa here that needs deeper investigation whole number of questions are there but moving beyond those questions let's talk about the last to me the most important issue that after this anything the cbi does is going to be questioned there's nothing that the cbi can now do to really recover probably let me ask you do you trust cbi now simple qston not with this leadership clearly that's the question that no no no the question is and here i'm trying to take this discussion forward do you think the perception that the reason for mr alok varma getting transferred to be in charge of home guards and fire services was an apprehension or a fear that he might look deeper into the rafael case that is the that is really the within the few days that could be could be at his disposal it is that a possibility yeah you know leaving again question that can't be answered but i will say the question that can be answered if this government is serious about the credibility of the shall we say the caged parrot that was the supreme court statement once upon a time then it needs to create a credible leadership of the cbi what it has done or what it is doing does not seem that it is going to go down the route at all in fact it's brazening out the ouster of mr varma illegally earlier and now quasi legally shall quasi legally shall we say and is going to continue with this partisan capturing of the cbi if we take what mr varma mr sena in the supreme court all of this into account and we take mr asthaler's own record which seems to be problematic at this stage i don't think the government is in any manner trying to rectify the image that it has created for cbi and therefore the question that you are asking will now cbi really take up any of the allegations rafael and various other allegations that might be there against the government and if i can briefly add the collateral damage there is already a perception that the most powerful civil servant in this administration this regime is mr ajid dowal the nsa now what does this mean okay after all he has a background in the indian police service point number one what does this do in terms of perception with the other civil services you know and i know we all know that the indian administrative service has seen itself to be a notch above the rest be that as it may what does it do to what is happening internally you know there were people who have been directly recruited to the cbi example is mr bussey who is looking as to into the allegations against mr asthana and he had been transferred to port blare and and the supreme court said you know enjoy yourself port blare is a nice place kind of thing but the point is mr bussey is a direct recruit he is he going to be tainted henceforth from as being mr alok verma's back because it's fighting between two IPS officers what happens to the professional investigators within the cbi and that too has now been badly damaged that's what i said the cbi has been split vertically into two because now now it is it is portrayed on this way that a certain section of officers are you know this is verma's side which was anti-governmental as of now the the view instead cbi saying it's anti-government and the others are the supporting of government which is of asthana's side the integrity i mean what was that it's gone you know that is the i think that's the biggest tragedy along with various other institutions this is an institutional damage which mr bothies government has done which will be very hard to undo and for our viewers i must say this that within the government people are saying this is not just one wing of the government this is an armed wing of the government and if this kind of fractures takes place in the armed wing of the government then we have really far away one point the premier investigating agency the premier police investigating agency yes the the one point we missed us the cvc himself is tainted there are allegations in my book on this yeah i think it's a good time to plug yes yes yes yes so there are enough allegations there are enough a few of them are substantiated against the cvc himself and this this ouster is based on a report of that cvc which also has charges against him so those as i said this is this is a really sad chapter in india's governmental history we don't have time today for his being very diplomatic let us say very clearly this is actually political witch hunt well as you know that i do think political witch hunts occur and as my history but in the process that that institution is has been decimated destroyed completely i think you know witch hunts do happen on the various administrations when they take into their they take place against an armed wing of the government and the premier investigation agency i think all of us is far more cost to worry thank you very much for being with us in this discussion we'll continue to keep under the scanner this and other steps is governed by tech and of course the raffle issue on which i hope to have worth of you with me again please do keep watching duce click this is all the time we have for duce click today