 Hey, everyone. Welcome to Career Journey Podcast. I'm your host, Brittany Abla. Have you ever wondered about ghost writing? When somebody writes either an article you read online or even a book, but it's attributed to someone else? Today's guest, Daniel Rose Hill, talks all about his adventures in ghost writing. We'll even get into topics like discussing the differences in education systems from Ireland and the US. And he is available to help anyone that's interested in writing as a profession, and specifically ghost writing as a profession. And you can find him on his website DSR. That's D as in Daniel, S as in Sam, R as in Robert. DSRGhostWriting.com. Or you can find that on our social media pages. And he offers help with getting into ghost writing and writing in general and figuring out and navigating kind of that world. So if you're interested in that career, be sure to check out his website and enjoy this episode. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Career Journey Podcast, where we explore exciting careers and how to get them from the people who flipped it. I'm your host, Brittany Abla. Thank you for tuning in and enjoy. Hi, Daniel. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, Brittany. Thank you very much for having me on the show. Yeah, absolutely. So we just start from the very beginning. Did you have any dreams or aspirations of what you wanted to be when you were a child? I didn't really have specific aspirations. I more had kind of an amalgamation of sort of different images at various points that I believe I thought about being an airline pilot. I definitely dreamed at some point of getting into like political communications and like speech writing. That was a big thing I went through for a few years actually quite late in life like when I was in university. So I had a few things. I think the kind of aspiration that I have throughout life is more just like running a startup. That's kind of a recurrent one that I have a brilliant startup idea every now and again. But no, I never really had a kind of the way some people dream about being a brain surgeon from the age of like four years old and never exactly had something so specific, more just a series of, as I said, ideas. And so how did you start getting into any of your careers? Did you have to decide on something in high school when you were trying to go to college or how did you get into that? Sure. So I like the way you use our careers there because it's that's really, I think the way you have to look at it. So yeah, it's and college actually because so basically I grew up in Ireland for sort of the point I was like 10 years old onwards. We lived for a few years in abroad before that. But the Irish education system is basically geared around, you do this exam called the leaving certificate, which is like the equivalent of SATs basically. And based on that, when you apply for college in Ireland, and I know it's different systems in different countries. So where I'm currently based in Israel is I think a little bit the same system. You basically say what you're going to you declare, I think the you can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think the American terminology for this is you declare your major. Like you state what you're going to be studying. So that's definitely by 18 years old, people have to have made that decision. But realistically, to actually do the right exams for that course, you need to make the decision a few years earlier. So yeah, I remember my mother and my family were maybe more keen that I would do sort of scientific and mathematical subjects. And I was never math was never my strong point. I'm more creative and just work better with words, I guess. So yeah, I kind of unconsciously is what I'm trying to say did start making those decisions at the age of like 15 16. And most most people do that, unless you're as he said, what in the category of the brain surgeon, super genius children who at five years old know that they need to be doing brilliantly in math, just to get into the right course. It's more, I think it's a little bit unconscious, it kind of happens, you pick what you want to do in high school. And then that sort of ends up determining what doors are left open to you for university. And then as we as we know that has a big impact on what you can do later in life in your in your career or next career. Right. And do you have to stay in the same major? So you have to pick a little earlier than I think we do here in the US and the US. I mean, you can declare your major when you're applying to university, but you can also declare to be decided or change. Are you able to change? As far as I know, you can. So basically, the IRA system goes by, they have this point space system, which really fluctuates on supply and demand. And you basically apply for certain courses. So I think there, you know, there are mechanisms, I'm sure, for changing between different choices, but it's not very, it's not as fluid from what I understand as the US where, you know, as you can change around undecided. And I think they even have these free form programs, if I'm not mistaken, that are you kind of put together your own, your own credits to make a course. So no, it's quite a rigid system. As I said, so is Israel from what I have been told by, you know, people of that age living here. So I guess systems are systems are very different. And it's actually interesting. What kind of effect that has on people's trajectories, I guess I personally, by the way, think it's a it's a very, very bad system to to fence people into what they want to do at like 18 years old. Although I guess on the other side, people would say you you have to decide sooner or later. But I certainly wasn't thinking, you know, lifelong careers at the age of like 17. I don't think many of us are at that time. I mean, the brain's not even fully developed. And you have to pick the rest of your life sounds pretty intense. Right. It is intense. Especially now, I think that the market and the economy has changed a lot since maybe the beginning of these structures where you can move around a little bit more freely than before as well. Yeah, that's true. But I mean, at the same time, I think there are a lot of people who, you know, once you once you have committed to doing something, it's kind of hard to I know there's a big thing here, as I said, again, where I'm based with these boot camps, like coding boot camps, so people will roll out these programs to teach people Python or various front end development languages in a abbreviated timeframe. So these have become popular, but they're not at the same time, those people are still at a big disadvantage to, you know, people that did a full computer science program. So yeah, it's tough. It's tough the way the system is based in some places. Yeah. And so what did you decide on was your major? At least that's what we call it. I don't know what it was called in Ireland. Yeah, I had like a crazy, crazy journey towards even getting there and I ended up doing something not particularly exciting. So I remember doing the only reason I even, well, my wife's American. So I now know what SATs are just would know. But at the time I actually looked at going to college in the US and they ended up applying, getting into a couple of places and then realizing it wasn't so practical because of the, I guess, the cost of college in the US is just absolutely mind boggling. So I did the same thing in the UK. So I don't exactly know what was going through my mind, but I ended up, you know, getting into like a few different universities and then going just to my local university and studying all I was also applying for crazy programs. Like I've always had an interest in aviation. I think I mentioned that already. I remember there's a university called Cranfield in the UK that operates these crazy like airline transport management majors that nowhere else exists. So I ended up staying in Cork. I think partially for partially for family reasons, my father died just before just after I finished high school. So I think it was potentially partially motivated by maybe I wanted to just stay where I grew up. But I ended up not doing any of these far flung exciting plans and I studied law, which again was I think maybe partially what my family strongly suggested I do and not, you know, wasn't really something to be honest that that I particularly was interested in. I mean, it's laws a bit interesting, but I didn't have the, you know, the passion. And I think the stuff I was thinking about studying myself, computer science probably would have actually been maybe a better fit. So yeah, that's that's my that's my story of declaring a major in law somehow. And what was that experience like? It was, you know, the first year I remember being very interesting. That actually kind of I guess we'll segue we'll segue into this. The first year was interesting because there was a lot of like constitutional subjects. So I know in the US as well, there are aspects of law like jurisprudence that are really interesting from a non legalistic standpoint. And then you then after that you get into like, contract law and case law and it gets really, really detailed. So for the first year, I remember being very engaged by it and I enjoyed the college experience. And then because I was already actually at this, at this point, thinking about moving to Israel, that was another one of my options. I just find it really hard to motivate myself to study all these my new, my new, I'm going to get this word wrong, my new TA, you know, all these fine details of Irish contract law. So I mean, I did end up by passed the degree and, you know, got my, I didn't, I didn't drop out or I didn't quit the program, but I didn't have the passion, basically. So it was, it was a relatively short course. It's a three year program. Yeah, it's a three year program. And I also, I also stayed at home, which is a really common thing in Ireland. And that is like one of my biggest regrets in life is doing that. Don't, don't do not waste your college years living with your parents. It's a terrible idea. So what, what did you do after? So if you graduated with a degree, it sounds like you didn't want to use it in any way. So what did you do? Right. So through, kind of through this program, I did some relatively interesting or creative things. So I got into writing for student newspapers and I think that's, I don't know if that's common activity in the US, but I kind of ended up taking it too far. Like I got so into it that it sort of absorbed me. So I started out writing for the student newspaper. Then I started up a news website for the university because it was weird that even in 2009, there wasn't any online news for the university. So I started up a news website basically because I wanted to do an internship in a newspaper. And I was like, I'm not going to scan copies of, you know, stuff from the student newspaper. And that ended up becoming quite a big, you know, in relative terms thing. I did run that for a year full time. So then after this degree was finished, I was like journalism is fascinating. And it's such an interesting field. And I mean, I did, I still get really, that's where my passion really is. Like I love interviewing people and understanding stories. And so that was it. So I got, I got sidetracked by my foreign into student journalism and then ended up actually doing a master's degree after the same painful process of exploring like exciting options. Again, I actually got into another university in the US and the same story. I realized that it was just sort of not, not sensible. I mean, I don't think it's certain professions might make sense to take on huge tuition fees. So I got into Columbia essentially, and this isn't, this isn't an attempt by me to brag about that fees. But when I looked at their fees, it was, you know, I don't, I'm sure Columbia journalism grads do relatively well in the media industry, but you're just not going to claw back that massive debt in the same way that like, you know, a law graduate might. So I ended up studying journalism in a college in the UK called City University, which is well regarded in the UK. And obviously was like a lot cheaper than studying in the US. So that's what I, that's what I did. Yeah, it's pretty outstanding here. And it just keeps climbing. Yeah, it's, I don't understand the whole, you know, I mean, I know how it works, the people get into debt, and then they gradually pull their way out of it. But that's, I mean, if staying at home for college is one of my big regrets, not taking on student debt is one of my not regrets, because, you know, I think it just puts, it piles so much pressure on young people to, to have that. Yeah, I didn't even take out that much in loans, and I'm still paying mine off. So I think you just keep paying it off until you die. Good luck. Thanks. Okay, so you wanted to go into journalism because you were having that side track. So what did you do after you graduated? What was kind of your first job after graduation? So my first job, so I ran this student newspaper gig, well, website, then there was a business incubator. So I did that for a year. That was technically, I mean, sort of a job. But my first job job was I came back after finishing this journalism program, and was hired by a guy who runs a political app for politicians, Brendan Finookin, still going, eCanvasser, eCanvasser.com, very, they've done very well. So that was a really cool experience. So basically, I managed marketing communications at a startup. And I did that pretty much until I left for Israel, you know, give or take a couple of months. Mm-hmm. I love there's this theme that you have kind of political science, a startup, kind of communications and storytelling, interweave through all of these jobs. Right. If you come up with an answer for my career by the end of this, I'll be very grateful. Yeah. Okay. And then what'd you do after that? So I did this job. And as I said, I really, really enjoyed working at that startup. It was, I still say probably the best job that I've had. It was very small at the start. And now it's, they're more established. They're still based in Cork and Ireland. So anyway, I did, I moved to Israel. So this was for, you know, religious reasons. I'm not sure if, you know, you listeners are familiar with the whole general dynamic of Jews returning to Israel. But that was, that was, it was really personal. It wasn't, it had absolutely nothing to do with career stuff. And in fact, it was very unfortunate that I didn't look at that aspect of it. You know, I just thought this is what I'm going to do. And I want to do this and I want to try it out. And I didn't think really so much about the jobs aspect. So I got to Israel. I did a, the introductory stuff is like they put you through this language school. And yeah, that's, well, I continue with what I did after coming to Israel. There's not really so much to tell, but I can, I can tell it. So I did language school. And then I, you know, the first summer I worked at a newspaper actually, very briefly at the Jerusalem post, which isn't even on my resume, because I just kind of saw it as a, as a part-time job. So that was my first job here. Then I transitioned into a, then I got a full-time job at the end of that summer, the first summer at a PR company, IOT company, marketing communications there. And now I'm working for myself as a, as a doing a ghostwriting business, which is freelance writing for the most part in some book ghostwriting as well. Awesome. So how did you transition from working in that marketing job to starting to work for yourself? So basically, I mean, I think actually when I moved here and I was job hunting, there was just a lot of people looking for a freelance writer. So I was like, okay, I'll open up a file is very, very, the good thing about freelancing, you know, sometimes depending, I guess, where you live, but the bureaucracy wasn't really that involved. Even in Israel, there is a lot of bureaucracy, but it was quite easy. So I just set up an account and started billing clients. I then freelanced for a while for even, you know, when I was working intermittently. And then basically I build up just enough clients in order to be able to go out on my own. So I just made that decision basically at that point. Great. And can you walk us through a little bit for those that aren't familiar with kind of freelance writing? How does that work? Sure. So I mean, freelancing is, you know, without oversimplifying. So you don't have a, you're not working for a single client or employer. Typically, I'm going to try and make this, you know, universal. You don't get benefits generally, which is a part of it that a lot of people don't think about. And you know, just to spell out what that means, that means you don't get sick days, you don't get vacation pay. If you're in the US, I believe it's really tricky to get healthcare. You need to like, you know, find a way around that. So that's what freelancing and freelance writing, I mean, it's actually a pretty big world, even though it sounds very monolithic. There is people who do social media posts. There's people who do books. There's people who do all sorts of different types of freelance projects. So yeah, I mean, I'd be happy to explain what there is involved in it. Yeah, go for it. So basically, yeah, to get into freelancing, I mean, from a technological standpoint, you're probably good enough with just a basic website and an email. So the barriers to entry are pretty low. It's generally, I mean, there are courses and books about what to do. But yeah, once you have a website and an email address, start finding clients and you just write for them basically. That's what is entailed. But of course, there's an awful lot more than that. There's marketing, business development, administration, contract work. There's a lot that goes along with it. But to actually get going is relatively easy. And I know that a lot of people, because of COVID, are exploring this as an option at the moment. Right. And it sounds like for us in the US who kind of need the healthcare tied to it, it might be good for that supplemental income sometimes. And then you've mentioned now, so now you do ghostwriting, which is tied a little bit to freelance. Can you explain kind of ghostwriting to us? Sure. So I mean, ghostwriting is traditionally, if you, if you read books about it, the traditional paradigm, if you will, for ghostwriting is ghostwriting books. So throughout history, let me roll back in that because I can't say in the 15th century people were hiring, I don't think we have that kind of information. But throughout modern history, a lot of books you read on the bookshelf by famous authors, especially by serial authors particularly, are not written by those people. Celebrity memoirs, people probably know that just intuitively. So there's a big network of, there's a big world, I should say, really of writers for hire contracted writers who actually write these things. But that's just actually the books. So traditionally ghostwriting means books. I would say it's a little bit of a debate in that people would ghostwrite social media and say I'm a ghostwriter. So to me, ghostwriting is simply, if I write something, and my name doesn't go on what I write, I would consider that ghostwriting. So before I spoke to you, I wrote an article for a tech publication, and they're going to attribute that to their staff, not me particularly. So that's a form of ghostwriting, but it's an article, not a book. So you have different, so that's a big Marcus, people who write speeches are ghostwriters, they typically call themselves speechwriters. And I've made the point on blogs I've written that, well, a speechwriter is just a ghostwriter for people delivering spoken remarks. So yeah, and public relations firms fulfill a huge amount of ghostwriting for CEOs, for people that don't have time to write. So basically what I'm trying to say is that an awful lot of what you come across in magazines, even on the internet, even on LinkedIn, even on Medium, and on the bookshelf has not been written by the person who does write it, who is a ghostwriter, can be anybody from me to a secretary, to a personal assistant, to a communications manager, various different titles. Okay. And I know I've heard celebrities even have people write kind of what they talk about at award shows or even on TV, things like that. So that would be kind of fitting under that ghostwriting, right? Yeah, sure. I mean, you could even have, you know, stuff you'll see at a PR firm would be writing interview responses. So sometimes a reporter will sit down with a celebrity to conduct an interview and that'll be on the record. Sometimes, especially for online media, you know, it's just basically exchanging word documents. And the journalists or blogger or whatever the case may be might send over questions and you'll just respond in writing. So those can obviously very easily, it's not something I do, but I do know that, you know, from having worked at a PR company, let's just say I've seen that being done, it is an activity that gets done. It's crazy. I think in, because my line of work, I obviously read a lot of articles and things online. And so blog posts and kind of articles for newspapers and periodicals kind of make sense to me for ghostwriting. But you're saying that the largest part of ghostwriting is books. So how does that work? Why does somebody kind of contract someone else out to write the book? And then how does that work with their name being on it and all of that? Sure. So I mean, some of the stuff that you mentioned there, so there's a distinction that I think is a very important to draw between academic ghostwriting and what I call business slash corporate ghostwriting. So, you know, there is a question is ghostwriting ethical and I've also blogged about this. My kind of belief is that if you have a typical ghostwriting relationship between somebody who has really, really interesting things to say, but they don't have the time to say it or the ability to say it, and you've got somebody who just does this continuously, they're continuously writing for clients, and they're therefore really adept at that process of writing. I think that's a net benefit for the world. It's a positive collaboration because things are getting written that wouldn't be getting out onto the bookshelf were it not for these ghostwriters. Where I have a problem with it is academic ghostwriting. So, you know, if you say I have to write a master's thesis or a PhD dissertation, I think one to hire someone, you know, I've been approached by someone about six months ago. And, you know, I got this in bank query. And the guy was basically saying I represent it was super sketchy. He was like, I represent this guy doing he's just gotten into an MBA program. He's interested in a ghostwriting collaboration. And, you know, I was like, well, what do you mean a ghostwriting collaboration? So basically, the guy wanted me to write all his coursework. So that's academic ghostwriting. And that is not legitimate. And the only reason I've written about this is just to try, you know, underscore the difference to people. Yeah. I have heard recently, though, tune in academic worlds for like major papers and research papers and grants. There's a type of ghostwriting out there too. I would say there is an awful lot of it going on various shades of legitimacy. And, you know, yeah, I think I think you'd have to be pretty naive to think that this doesn't go on. All I'm familiar with because, you know, I've now I'm not in the academic worlds. The ghostwriting that I know is, you know, endemic really is the corporate professional stuff that kind of thought leadership that gets put out on these social networks, I'd say. And a large amount of that would be ghostwriting. Nice. And can you walk us through the process kind of from start to finish of what happened so you when you get a client and you're kind of working on a project of book, kind of, can you walk us through that process? Sure. So I mean, I had a discussion with a potential client this morning. And that's kind of typical for an ongoing relationship in that you really want to have some kind of relationship with this person, like basically not to skimp on the amount of time you would spend speaking to them these days on zoom. Now, for typically for ghostwriting, whether you actually go out to get to meet the person really depends on what level you're dealing with. So, you know, if you're dealing with the top celebrity level, then that really works through celebrity agents, let's say, if you're dealing with business people, often the relationship is more one to one. And you are just conducting, you know, there's nothing stopping you. So basically one of the projects I worked on in the last six months was with somebody local. So that was really nice in the sense that we, you know, could go out and get a drink at a bar. And that's actually super important and really good because so much freelance writing is computer based. And I just kind of tried to embrace any opportunity to meet people face to face. So that was a really nice relationship. And then, you know, with somebody in another country that I am also working on now, somebody in Ireland actually, we're just exchanging emails. So I mean, you know, the modes of communication vary. Some people love video conferences with web cams, some people hate web cams, some people just like email, people have different preferences. But that's really what it is. And as I said, if you're, if you're dealing with like an oil magnate coming out with a biography, then they might fly you out to, you know, the UAE to speak to them. But if you're dealing at a lower level with someone, you know, not somebody with that kind of money to just dispose of them, there is most of those projects can just be conducted 100%. Remotely was the one caveat that I don't think there's any substitute for person to person relationships and communication. So I, you know, I do believe that the product might be slightly different, but in the Corona era, clearly, even stuff that would have been done in person is now largely being done remotely. Yeah. And how important is it to develop a significant relationship with these people? Does it help your writing significantly? Yeah, I mean, I think the trick, the trick of ghost writing is getting capturing the voice of the person that you are. I mean, that's, that's kind of obvious, right? So if I write, I tend to write in kind of a, I'm trying not to use the words eloquent, that, that that's too self-flatting, but kind of an effusive style almost. I'm like an academic kind of pros. That's my natural style. Maybe I've just adopted it, but, and then some people write in a much more laid back and colloquial manner. So the first thing, you know, on all the projects I undertake is I ask people to show me stuff that they've been impressed by and that, you know, stuff they've written before and not had ghost written. So if they've worked with somebody else before. So just to understand what they write, like I do, I'll do stuff like watch YouTube videos of them speaking and listen to podcast interviews they've done just to understand. Basically, the capturing the tone of voice is relatively straightforward. People speak in different registers. They speak different dialects of English, but understanding the person is a lot harder. And that's the, that's the trick basically is, you know, as I said, having a spending time with them in order to understand what are they really feeling that, you know, that they want to write this book. What, you know, who are they exactly? Like what, what, what are they trying to get across here? So, you know, it matters a lot more for a book you could probably argue than it does for an article where you have a very clear skeleton and a brief to follow. But yeah, that's basically it. It's, it's really understanding where the person is coming from. And that goes beyond just picking up their voice. So I would say that is the key to it. And do you ever find yourself like refusing to take a client or not working with a client because there's not a match between kind of your style and theirs? Yeah, I mean, I would say basically, so I've been doing this freelance writing for give or take about five years, which is effectively as long as I've been here, I've been doing it full time for two years. So I've, you know, I've seen, I had quite a few clients over the years based in different countries because I work mostly internationally with international clients, come across various working styles, various characteristics. And yes, the fit is so, so important. I mean, I would refuse a project probably on it. I tell you the truth, it really hasn't come up yet that I would refuse, you know, because it's someone like here's the memoir of me cannibalizing my brother. I haven't received such a request yet. But in terms of working styles, so yes, when you are interacting with someone from the very first touch point, when they get in contact to your first kind of interview, it's really like, I mean, they say this for job interviews that people don't actually, it's in an ideal world, a job interview is a two way interview process. You know, in reality, a lot of people need a job and they're just like hoping to get whatever job comes is available, but it's a two way process. So I look at it like that. So yes, I'm interviewing the person I'm seeing, you know, stuff that you do come across what I would call classic red flags and a good example that I have come across many times, unfortunately, is people saying, oh, you know, I've hired three cost writers and they're all useless or basically just, you know, dissing, dissing freelancers. So yes, if I spoke to somebody and they told me that I'm their fifth, the fifth person they've contacted and all their other freelancers were useless or, you know, something like that, then that would be a red flag to me. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't take on their project. Yeah, absolutely. There's a reason that five other people didn't work out. It's super, super important. And I basically second guessed myself far too many times where I have got this feeling in my stomach that something is just not right about the way this person is communicating. It can be as subtle as, you know, as a, you know, you must do this, just use, you know, a lot of use of imperatives in a brief, very, very small signs that I pick up on. And, you know, I sometimes I run up by a freelancing friend and I tell them the story and they say, oh, you're overthinking it. And basically, it's, I don't think I've ever, that's a kind of a bold claim, but I don't think I've ever been wrong where my God said this is not going to work out in the few projects that I've had that have not really worked out just because of those dynamics were things that I did spot. Right. And then so what happens after you start developing a relationship with somebody? What's the next step of the process? I mean, typically for, you know, as I said, there's different projects that you could put under the heading of ghostwriting. It could be an ongoing thing whereby you are ghostwriting for somebody on, you know, LinkedIn or Medium and putting out this whole campaign that they're trying to become, let's say, a thought leader in a certain, certain industry. So those are just basically ongoing relationships. I mean, to the extent that to if it does carry on for, you know, more than six months or into years, you kind of become sort of close with the person in the sense that maybe you start exchanging WhatsApps and, you know, you might pick up a gift for them or in the holidays, you might give them a gift. It develops into that kind of relationship as opposed to, you know, I've never actually done work on Upwork, one of these big freelancing marketplaces, but that, you know, those are very striking me as very transactional oriented marketplaces that it's just purely, you pay the person. So that's the difference. I haven't been doing this long enough that I'm at the point where I could say I've become like, sort of a scribe confidant to a Royal Family member or, you know, something cool like that. But there is, yeah, definitely the longer you work with someone, those are really the beneficial relationships because one thing I will say about freelancing is client acquisition is really can be really troublesome. Like, you know, I think the best way to go about this business is really to find a few good clients, you know, do good work with them and get referred out. Because whether you're cold pitching or whether you're dealing with inbound leads, it's just really tough work. And I think the statistic is like 80% of warm leads in an industry like writing just don't come through for various reasons. So, you know, you're going to be speaking to a lot of people, spending a lot of time and getting relatively small business. So, yeah, that's the long term relationships and referrals are the name of the game. And what's it like after the finished product? Is it like interesting? Is it pretty exciting to see your work, even though it has maybe somebody else's name on it? I think you have to kind of detach. So, you asked me earlier about credit and attribution. So, my thinking earlier on, and I kind of have gone back in this a bit, I really didn't actually want my name on any freelancing work whatsoever, because I kind of didn't feel like I really owned it. I mean, even looking at it from a legal standpoint, typically the intellectual property vests to the clients. And you basically get paid. Ghostwriting is a contracted writing project. You don't publish stuff. I mean, you will find them sure. Ghostwriters also publish. But basically, you're being paid a sum of money to sit with the person, speak to the person on the internet, do whatever it takes to get a great book out of them, send the book to them, and then they can publish it themselves or bring it to a literary agent and go through a traditional publishing right. So, that's basically where your job ends. Now, of course, it's great if people come back to you. But I think most people, the majority of people you're going to be working with are not going to become serial book authors. So, if it's a book project, what he would say is you just kind of have to detach. So, I basically do, I'm keeping tabs on a couple of books on Amazon. I'm seeing what people are saying about them on Goodreads. I'm just seeing how they're doing generally. And I was able to keep in touch with one of the authors to seeing how it's going for her. But that's really the extent of it. I do keep them on my shelf. The physical copies because it is kind of cool. I mean, if you want to think about the project that something physical emerges from this sort of writing collaboration, but yeah, you can't, if you do think along those lines of you are going to be tormented by someone else's name, then it's a bad fit. So, just to quickly address attribution. So, there's no attribution, which is the book is written by Brittany. There is coattribution, which is like with or as told to. There's various terms of phrases that are used. And that's really it. I mean, it's one or the two. Okay. So, it's a little bit more like working kind of in the business environment, the corporate world where you're contracted, you provide a service and then you're done versus kind of that. I hesitate a little because I want to say that creative world where you're publishing kind of your own content, because you're still doing that creative side, but it's just a little bit more separate. It's a little bit more like that corporate side where you're contracting. Right. So, when you're looking at books, basically getting a lot of authors will tell you that writing the book was the easiest part of the journey. All the work is in promotion, promotion, promotion, marketing, marketing, marketing. So yeah, that's basically up to them. As he said, I'm sure you will find, basically the reason the distinction exists besides stuff like convention is a lot of it's got to do with legal stuff because the publisher, it typically assumes legal responsibility. So, you wouldn't want to be in a position whereby you go through the book and you published it for them. There is a whole landscape for this, so you'll have people who actually take the book and they format it for paperback or for e-book and then that goes to the literary agent. If you're at that scale and the literary agent introduces it to publishers or you can do that. So yeah, there's various people involved at various junctures of this and as far as I've seen it would be uncommon to have a ghost writer who also had a little publishing sideline and offered post-publication marketing as well. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but yeah, it's not typically like that. Yeah. I mean, if anything, that would just be way too much work. Yeah. Right. It would be like a very, very, very burnt out person, but yeah, definitely the marketing work after you publish the book is where the really hard graph starts for a lot of authors. Great. And then what do you suggest for somebody that wants to get into this career? How does somebody get started doing this? I know earlier you mentioned just kind of building a website. Is that all it takes? Is there advice you have on how to practice? Sure. So I mean for freelance writing, some people for ghost writing, my conception of ghost writing is that there are different markets. I sometimes call them different worlds because to me that's almost a more accurate description of how the kind of different price points we're talking about here. So one is Upwork, let's say, which is I would say a very, very unfavorable marketplace for the most part to sellers. Then you have business people, which are typically business coaches and just sort of run-of-the-mill people looking to put out a book. Those will typically be more, those are not through a platform. They'll typically be higher value contracts than Upwork jobs. And then at the top you might have, as I said, celebrities, famous business people, that kind of thing and that are able to spend up to six figures on a book ghost writing project. So depending what level you come in, I mean, if you're, a lot of authors do ghost writing. So if you happen to be a published author, you'll have a really good in to that world because A, you'll probably know, you might know a few literary agents and B, you'll have good writing samples out there. So the first question any writer gets asked is, can I see your sample? So actually the more writing you've done ironically as a ghost writer, the easier it will be for to have that conversation because really all clients want to see is, can you write? That's something I've come to realize over the years. I've put together my portfolio and that's a whole other complicated aspect to ghost writing is how to show people ghost written work because you typically can't just put it out on the internet and say, oh, Brittany, she didn't really write that book. I wrote that book. That would be bad. So that's a complication. And I put a lot of time and effort into this only to realize that people are just looking for a basic reassurance that my writing is good and that I'll be able to do the job. So that's what I'd say. So basically get your writing out there, of course, in better publications, higher tier publications is always advantageous. And, you know, beyond that a professional web presence, getting into books, books is like its own world essentially. So you will have the freelance writing universe, which is very, very big and very varied. And then in books, it's its own sort of thing. There are less book ghost writers. There are a couple of professional associations, I'm a member of one called the Association of Ghost Writers, which is AOG. So you can check the website, they have two levels of membership and eligibility criteria there. So that's yeah, I mean, to make the leap into books, it's like everything the first one is going to be the first three to five maybe are going to be the hardest because you're not going to know what to charge. You're not going to know how to do it. You're going to have a very hard time finding the first person to take you on without having written one. So the more ways in which you can stack that in your favor by writing a book or by getting a warm introduction from a network to somebody as opposed to trying to find somebody on Upwork, the easier that that process will be for you essentially. Right. And you mentioned how difficult it can be to get your portfolio together and convince people that you've written one or two. How do you overcome that? How do you get your work in front of them if you're not supposed to really show them? Sure. So I mean, it's a common topic of conversation in writers groups. So what I've done is I've kind of personally taken quite a strict view of it, like I don't want to have on my website the names of anybody I've written for. That's my personal way to do it. Some people will put up articles that they have ghostwritten. I mean, okay, so basically what I will do is I have a password secure login area in which I'll have some samples for other ones. I'll attach them by email if I have permission. Then you have stuff like legal NDAs, which again, I've signed NDAs with agencies that say that actually, and this is becoming a growing trend, which is really, really tough. That'll say like, you can't say you've worked with this client. You can't show your writing for them. So you're completely restricted. So that's really, that's really tricky. I have a few pieces in that category. So what I do in practice is if I can, I'll put some behind the password. I'll share it with people, you know, link to an Amazon book and say, I'd be happy to put you in touch with X to talk about my writing. That's kind of the best you can do as far as I can tell behind putting it behind closed doors, closed digital doors. Other people will put it up on their website for the world to see. And I'm just not comfortable with that because I kind of feel like what was the point of hiring a ghostwriter for the ghostwriter to tell everybody that they wrote the thing. So it depends. I'm not saying my way is the right way, just that there are various ways in which people do it. And people will tell you their way is correct. And other ways are, you know, whatever. Yeah, it just sounds difficult to be able to It's right. It's harder than it's harder than being a journalist and just, you know, setting up a muck rack profile or putting all your clips on a page and saying, here's everything I've written. So I do actually a bit of writing, byline writing. And I won't lie, half the purpose of that is just to just to keep clips of some, you know, that are visible, because you can't really count on people putting in passwords and contacting references. And, you know, they want to, they generally want to try make it easy for the for the people who are thinking about hiring you. Right. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you almost have to just write something else on the side just to show them your writing style, which is extra work. And that can be that can be a huge amount of work when you're kind of spending burning the midnight oil and two ends writing for your clients. But you know, I would say that at the current time, I have a friend actually, I just it's just in my mind because I was speaking to him last week, and he describes thinking of the pandemic that it's not going to just end in, you know, a few months or a year. If you can get into the mindset now that this is going on for two or three years, then my friend, whose name is Peter Duffy says that it's a, it's a superpower. So I kind of, you know, if you, if you, if you want to get into the superpower mindset, which is I think an awesome mindset to embrace, then you can, you know, say, you're just going to go really hard at this for six months and do ghost writing projects and write on the site. And yes, I think that combination is probably what's needed. And as you, as you said, it's an awful lot of work to do those two things simultaneously. Yeah. All right, we're kind of coming up on time. Is there anything else that you would want to talk about? Or is there kind of, I usually ask like one last piece of advice you would have for people trying to get into your industry? Sure. I mean, I'd be, I'd be happy to, happy to, happy to share. So basically what I, what I would say is just to reiterate that freelance writing is a very, very big world. And right now because of the coronavirus, there are a lot of people coming into it. So the supply side of the market in, you know, economic terms is being flooded at the moment. Ghost writing aside, and I'm saying ghost writing aside just because as I said, it's just a part of freelance writing, you know, the Venn diagram, it's part of the market. I think it's really important now and my advice would be for people to focus on a niche or niches and ones that are lucrative. So my niche is technology and I'm, you know, I'm doing this like cloud certification, even though that seems like a really weird thing for a writer to be doing because it's a technology certification. I'm doing that just because I want to have an extra credential for approaching cloud clients. So it's both a good time to be a freelance writer and also it's arguably a terrible time because rates have been under pressure for a while and with budgets being constricted on the one side and more supply in the market on the second side, that's going to put even further pressure and I'm seeing that happening right now. So I would say it's always been true that people should niche down as they say, but it's never been truer than it is at the moment for people to do that. So basically, you know, you can find good freelance writing books out there on Amazon. I don't have any specific recommendations I really want to make, but find those books are a course and basically they'll, most of them will advocate the same thing, which is identifying two or three profitable niches, researching them and just kind of working from there. And as I said, the more bylined work, publicly accessible work you have out there to demonstrate that you don't have to get people clicking into your portfolios, the better. Right. Well, great. That was great advice. And it was such an interesting story to hear. So thanks for coming on and sharing. Sure. Thank you very much for having me on the podcast. I'm glad to I'm glad to share. Can I give, I mean, I guess if anyone has questions, I'd be happy to give my whatever contact details website. So my business website is dsrghostwriting.com and there's a contact form there. So if anybody does, so one of the things I really enjoy is speaking to speaking to writers, whether whether those writers are just coming in or they're already in by in, I mean already doing it. So I actually have a Calendly slot for peer to peer networking and whether people want, you know, just thoughts on getting into it beyond these thoughts, or they just are doing it and want to just like talk about writing and how it works out for them. I do those conversations maybe once every three months, just people whatever hit upon my page and click that. So always happy to speak with other writers and exchange exchanger are both our notes and our war stories. Well, that's awesome. Can you give us that website just one more time? Sure. Yeah, DSR as it's basically my initials, my middle name is Simon DSR ghostwriting.com and that's all together one word. Perfect. And we'll put that on our social media and everything too. So if any listeners want to just be able to click it, we'll have that up. Cool, great, great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. Head over to our website at careerjourneypodcast.com for more info, the latest episodes, and to join the discussion about careers. See you next time.