 Welcome to the nonprofit show. We are so glad to have you here for this riveting conversation. This one I do think is riveting Deanna. I have been like on the edge of my seat waiting to dive into this conversation. So again, for those of you watching or listening, we have Deanna Peterson. Deanna serves as a director at your part-time controller and she's here to talk about one of my favorite topics, getting development and accounting on the same page. So stay with us. Again, there's a lot of information to share, a lot of wisdom that I think will help to benefit your teams as we move forward in the conversation. But before we jump in, we wanna remind you again who we are in case we've not met you yet. So Julia Patrick, hello to you. Julia is the CEO at the American Nonprofit Academy and I'm Sharon Ransom, her nonprofit nerd, but yours too, CEO of the Raven Group and super honored to be here alongside you day in and day out as we have these high level conversations with so many thought leaders around the globe. We wouldn't be able to do this if it weren't for our esteemed presenting sponsors that stand by our side and are here to pour into you, our viewers, our listeners and your missions. So thank you to Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller where Deanna is joining us from today. Nonprofit Thought Leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These companies, again, many have been with us since the very first episode and we are marching towards 800. We will be at 800, I wanna say next month. So it's coming quickly. But again, if you missed any of our episodes or you wanna go back and share what Deanna is sharing with you today, you can find these episodes on Roku, Amazon Fire TV, YouTube, as well as Vimeo. And for those of you podcast listeners, I know I am, you can listen to the non-profit show wherever you stream those podcasts. So you can enjoy this entertainment pretty much anywhere at any time, free of cost. So without further ado, I wish there was a drum roll but I do want to introduce Deanna Peterson again. Back to the show. Again, Deanna Serres is a director at your part-time controller. Welcome back, Deanna, thank you. Thanks for having me again. It's always fun to come and talk to you guys. And I know we get to actually see each other in person sometimes because we're in the same city, which is also lovely. Why PTC as we will refer to your part-time controller probably throughout this conversation is in so many communities around the nation. And yesterday I was reminded of that because I think this entire week we will be looted with photos and icing of cupcakes and so much fun festivity because why PTC is celebrating a big birthday? Would you tell us what that is? It's number 30, 30 years. That's a huge milestone. We're across the nation now. And I know 30 years ago, Eric Frank, who's our founder, didn't have any idea of what his firm that he was creating was gonna become. So we're excited to be able to help so many nonprofits across the states. You know, I'm gonna tell Eric Frank a little bit because Eric is really, when it comes down to it, the person that changed the trajectory of Jared and mine's life because we have him in our studio in Phoenix, Arizona several years ago and we were interviewing him about something and it was the first time we'd ever done it. We were in a new studio and he leaned forward and he took his finger and he said, how do I get my logo on this background? Right, right. And Jared and I were like, what? Somebody would like, wanna work with us like that? And it completely shifted our mindset and we have never looked back. And it was really, I mean, Jared, don't you think? It was really a pivotal piece of our journey. It was amazing. And I feel like we should have put a birthday cap or a birthday hat on the logo today. That would have been awesome. We should have, what did we think about? Well, anyway, you're a part-time controller, really a great group of people. Jared and I love working with you on so many levels around this country. But one of the things that we hear Jared talk a lot about, I gotta, I gotta rat you out, my friend, is this problem with development and finance. And I wanna say problems, plural. Yes. What does this look like? What's happening here? So I think a lot of the issues that happen between the development department and the finance department has to do with the personalities that each of the departments kind of attract in those professions. So they're kind of different personalities, right? Developing people, wanna be personable, and wanna be out there and they might perceive the finance department as a little stuffy and a little bit too kind of in the box, okay? Well, accountants want to help. We wanna keep everyone out of jail. We also want to be accurate, right? Accountants want to be accurate. So sometimes that accuracy when we're communicating to a development department, development hears it as, oh, they're trying to put me in a box and I can't work like this and how am I going to get the nonprofit more money? And sometimes the accountants hear the development team when they're communicating to the accounting team about, oh, you know, we brought in a million dollars. Well, technically we brought in $900,000, right? But it rounds up to a million. So development wants to say a million and accountants like, well, it's 959,622. And so those conversations don't always go well. Yeah, yeah. That's what I think the issue is. You know, that is a great point because I see it all the time, you know, typically the development team, extreme extroverts, they want, you know, they don't mind being in the spotlight, speaking, having this like outward present personality. And that doesn't always translate, as you said, into the finance department. On occasion, it certainly does and there's a nice blend. But at the end of the day, the buck stops with being on the same page, right? Like, yes, we also all want to be out of jail. But we also really want to find out, like what is in the best fiduciary, big, you know, big fancy word for finance, you know, way to benefit the organization. And I see this constantly when I see an accounting report for a board report and a development report for a board report and they're not the same numbers. Yep, exactly. So they've got to tie because then the board looks and it goes, okay, so which one's right? And the answer a lot of times is, well, they're both kind of right. It has to do with timing maybe or something like that, right? They're just pulling numbers from different systems. It doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, but the board is going, well, clearly there's a disconnect here. Yeah. We have to figure that out. That doesn't look right. We want the board to see us as a united front as we're all working towards the same goal. We're all wanting the mission to move forward. Yeah. So talk to us, Deanna, you know, what does YPTC share with the clients that you work with across the nation about some strategies in which these two departments and probably multiple staff members, if you're lucky to be in a larger organization, what are some strategies to help improve communication between these two departments? Well, the first strategy that I think, and I think that all of YPTC would agree is we have to assume the best when we're communicating with a different department that might have a different personality, might come about something a different way. So we have to assume the best. And then we have to ask questions, right? So if a number comes at an accounting person from a development person and it looks wrong, we have to ask questions. Oh, where did you pull that number from? Okay, let's look into that a little bit more. If the development person is getting something from the accounting department, the accounting department is saying, you can't do this, you can't do that, ask, okay, what is the specific reasoning that you're thinking this is the incorrect process to do? So we're gonna ask open any questions, really try to understand the other person because we're all, like I said, we're trying to move the same mission forward. We all have the same goal. I think that's kind of the key. Let's find that same goal and let's ask questions. It seems to me that there's a lot of fear asking questions of the finance department because we don't wanna appear to be dumb or that we don't know what's going on. And that it seems to me such a roadblock, but I'm wondering like, how do we get on the same page in a consistent manner without just waiting until all hell's broken, Liz, because it seems to me that we don't communicate until there's a problem. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that. I mean, is this the sort of thing where we need to schedule weekly or bi-weekly meetings or how do we kind of get these two groups rowing? I say at least monthly, but when you're in a large grant season or when you're trying to put something together that both teams really need to be on the same page, maybe more frequently, it could be weekly. And especially in a larger organization, it could be weekly. It doesn't have to be the entire development team and the entire accounting team meeting weekly, but the head of each of those teams really needs to learn to be on the same page, but at least monthly. So we're doing monthly board reporting. We want to give the same numbers. We've gotta meet before that board meeting and be on the same page. Yeah. I have a question. And again, none of these are, I gotcha questions or back you in a corner, but I'm curious, if there's a finance committee for an organization, should someone from the development team also attend those finance committee meetings in preparation perhaps of a board meeting? I love that. That's a great idea. I think that would just depend on the organization structure and what makes sense. You know, I'm on the board of an organization and we don't have anyone from the development team and the committee at the finance committee meetings. We talk about really nerdy things. I'm sure. When we do a deep dive, right? And we ask lots of questions that might for the development department. We do work hand in hand when it comes to, okay, this is our next season. This is our budget. We include the development department in the budget. They need to be, what is the development department's goal for bringing in money and not just the finance department saying you're bringing in this much money because this is what we need, right? We need to work together in all of those pieces of the puzzle. Yeah, that makes sense. Jared, I love this because it gets development or whoever that interface is gonna be learning the nomenclature, getting to know the individual people, hearing the process and as opposed to waiting until there's an issue, it kind of moves them along. And so I love that idea. I've never seen that. You know, I don't think I've seen it either, but you know, I'm a huge advocate for really, you know, forecasting the cash flow. And I think a lot of information comes from the develop, can come from the development team when it comes to the cash flow forecast, even when it, you know, we talk about grants, Deanna, you know, if we know it's a big, you know, season for grants, well, let's forecast perhaps a higher cash flow. And I'm not sure that the finance team would necessarily know that information. So that's why it's so, so very important. I know that there is a document that exists that YPTC has created. And I'm not sure, I have it in my inbox, thanks to you, Deanna, but it really is some top best practices of how and when and what, you know, finance and development should do to coordinate and communicate and strategize. And so I just love that YPTC truly sees the value in this. And I don't know if you know where that document is or maybe where our viewers and listeners could find it. It should be on our website because it has to do with, it was connected to one of our national podcasts, their webcast. So it definitely is on our website if anyone wants to go and look at it or if you can't find it there, feel free to reach out to me and I can definitely get it to anybody. Yeah, perfect. I definitely agree with you, Jared. When it comes to that cash, growing cash forecast, we have to be able to look into the future, not just in the past. And accountants generally speaking, we have all the numbers about the past. We don't have the numbers about the future. Well, no one really does, but the development department has a little bit more understanding of what you're looking at, your probability of getting some of these. You know, you're cultivating relationships with large donors and know that, oh, you know, this large donor, I've been talking to her, I went out to lunch with her. I think that they're gonna bring in $100,000 in those types of things. So it's really before the reports are done that the development and the accounting team need to connect. And then at the finance committee, it's, you know, the reports are already done by the finance committee time. But the development team needs to be part of that forecast, especially in that revenue side, I agree. You know, one of the things you mentioned, and I'd love to take a little bit of a segue on this. And that is you mentioned grant season in grants. And again, it seems to me that we have another problem. And again, I've heard Jarrett talk about this, that like the folks involved in applying for grants oftentimes make commitments and sign up for things that the finance folks are like, holy moly. That's not possible. That's not work. And so I'm wondering as we're having this conversation about getting on the same page, if you can kind of address that and help us to understand how we might avoid some of those problems. We work together. We meet, right? I mean, when it comes to understanding, okay, so the grant writer is gonna understand the program, understand the ideas and understand sometimes really what the grantor is looking for. So sometimes the grant writer is writing for the grantor in their mind, right? Which is great. This is what we need to do. But when reality hits and we can't meet the restrictions of the grant, that's not great because it doesn't bode well for the organization. It doesn't look well, right? Optics and then we might have to pay money back or we don't get to use all of it. And nobody wants that. We all wanna be able to utilize the funding that we were received for the mission that we have as the common goal. So as we're working together, we need to talk in the process of the grant writing when it comes to finance. A lot of times the frustration from the finance side is that we hear from a grant writer that, oh, I've got this, I've been working on this grant for a month and it's due tomorrow and I need a budget. It's the first time the accountants are hearing about this and maybe have a board meeting in the next week, right? We're trying to close the books and now we have a grant report, budget due tomorrow. So those are the types of things that if you're regularly meeting and you understand what's coming up and you communicate when you start the grant writing process, right? Not when it's due the next day. That helps the accounting team because we do wanna help and we wanna make sure that we can utilize all the funds that we're bringing in at the organization. Yeah, no, you're so right. I shouldn't say always. I have seen it wait to the last minute. Oh yeah, this is maybe something that development doesn't gravitate towards finance, budgets, things like that. And so kind of push it off to the last minute and then, oh yeah, that's also due. That attachment or that document is due. And I have to say as well, Deanna, I met with what I consider a very versed seasoned non-profit professional in our community and she owned up to the fact that she really doesn't know how to read finances. She doesn't know how to really see the documents in the reports and understand it. And so I think there's so much work to be done, so much education to be done. And I told her, that was me. 10 years ago, that was me. I would look at it and just kinda gloss over but I had to teach myself how to look at these documents. Yeah, and that's one of the things that at YPTC we love to do so much is really to teach, to train, to educate, to help people understand what the finance is, the story of the finances, right? It's not just numbers on the page, it actually, you can know so many things. And now that I know that you know how to read the financials now, Jared, but when you look at the finances of a non-profit, you can learn so many things about that non-profit, what's going well, what's not going well. You can figure out maybe some of their weaknesses that you can help them grow in that area, right? And so it's just, it's key for board members, for non-profit executives to really understand the finance piece, even though generally speaking, not always, because we have a lot of great CPAs and finance professionals that are on boards, but a lot of board members are not finance professionals, which is fine, it's great. And then how do they learn, right? You're not gonna go and take a college course on accounting or non-profit accounting, you might, but maybe not, maybe you don't have that time in your schedule, you're already on a board and maybe have a full-time job. So what do you do? And that's what we can help with, we can help train boards and we can help executives as well, because it's really important. Well, I also wanna give a shout out to your DataViz team. So for all of the data visualization team members that might be watching or listening, to me that is a huge opportunity to tell the story in a way that is visually representing what's happening. And I think if development would also lean into the finance department when it came, comes to the data visualization, that is a key opportunity in so many ways, right? Like proposals, whether it's sponsorships or grant applications or presentations for individual or major gift funders, like having a data visualization team, and I just know that YPTC has a robust team of this and I really appreciate that because you're right, there's so many ways to tell the story. Exactly, and the nice thing about data visualization, right? That's another way that you can bring together development numbers and finance numbers, because development works with numbers too, it's just, they're just different numbers, but development's working with people and numbers more, right? And finance is working with numbers and people more, it just depends on which one comes first, but the data visualization brings it all together and can share with the board, with constituents, with donors, all of the numbers from this organization and the impact that it has, because that's really key, right? We wanna share the impact and that story. Yeah. You know, it seems to me like a lot of times that, and I believe this is why we have so much burnout in the development side of the nonprofit sector, is that it seems like development has the sense of victimization, that they're the ones keeping the wolves from the door and that they're, if they don't produce then everything's gonna go away and it just seems to me that if they have more of a relationship with finance, they would understand what's going on, they might reduce their fear or have more support for the things that they're doing. And so it kind of, that leads me to, I think our last question and that is, you know, how do we know when our teams are working well? How do we know if we're doing the right thing? Because I hear a lot of what's not working, right? I think we all do, but how do we know if it is working? I do think, you know, there's not a lot of fires, right? So we know, you know, when there's not a lot of fires, things are kind of working well. However, I also think that when we're getting grants, we're winning them, we're able to get timely reporting and then we're repeat winners of both large gifts from donors, right? We're cultivating that and they're continuing to give us, that kind of means that things are working hand in hand because you've got to have the numbers and the finance in order for sophisticated donors to continue to give to you and you have to have that people side. So if everything is working well together, the two departments know how to work together, I think we're gonna see better results finance-wise for the organization. Yeah, I appreciate that so much. And I think, you know, you've given us so many amazing tools and tips and resources to think about today. I think at the end, you know, the end of the conversation as we wrap today's, you know, talk up, it's really about come together because we are working towards this, it's kind of like, can't we all just get along? Exactly. Yeah, come together for this common goal. I think, you know, the more you meet, the better. Don't wait to the last minute, clearly, to ask for any of these documents that are needed for a grant proposal or report. And really just, you know, working in tangent and lockstep, I think is the key. Yeah, I think it's the key. I think it's, you know, learning about each other. Maybe have some conversations that don't have to do with work. Yeah. Right, maybe learn about the person that sees things a little bit differently than you. We talk about this in all sorts of life and it makes life better if you learn more about other people that don't think like you. The same way goes for the finance team and the development team. If we talk together, we meet together, we have a standard meeting and maybe talk about things outside of work and then we can get down to business and get work done. We can be on a better page together. And then I think if we can do that, we can meet more of those goals, we can help the mission move forward faster and that's all that we all want anyway. So what do we have to lose to work together, right? Money, right? If we don't work together. I guess that's true. We have a lot to lose if we don't work together. Yeah, I love this. I think it's been really great. And I'll tell you, one of the big takeaways is the discussion about having development in those finance committee meetings. And Jared, I love that. I think it's just, it's such a holistic concept about sending the message to everyone, that we're a team and we have to work together on these things and we need to understand or attempt to understand how things are functioning. It's a really smart way to look at this. And I think that the reality of it is, Deanna, we're just gonna become more and more engaged with the data and the information as we have more and more donor investors and funders that are more sophisticated and are looking at the business of impact. So- Yeah, you can see the whole, you can see the whole business, right? If you kind of look at the development and the finance, you can see the whole piece of the puzzle as opposed to just your little piece. But you're very right, like, life is gonna be a lot better for everyone if we can work together. And if you've got, if you decide to have a development team person at the finance committee, have it the other way too, have a finance committee person or have a finance person on the development committee call. And that also would be another way that that finance team cannot be surprised about last minute things because they might be able to see and know what's coming up. Yeah. You know, I love that even for events because I often see finance department individuals, you know, at the registration table for events or, you know, handling the money at many of these events. And it's really, I love when I see that because that just tells me the organization, you know, sees the value in financial transparency. And that is what so many organizations, you know, are striving for and need to strive for. I need to, I think that's it. Well, this has been great. You know, Deanna, I love this. You are one of the few guests that Jared and I have actually been able to meet because you do live in our community. And so that's super cool for us to actually have had those opportunities. And remember, Deanna Peterson, director of your part-time controller, celebrating 30 years of super. 30 years. That's amazing. I just think it's such a wonderful, wonderful thing that your organization is able to champion for us across the country in the nonprofit sector and to do it with 30 years of a lot of change. A lot of change. A lot of change. Oh, also we're 70, we're number 75 of the top 100 accounting firms in the nation now, by the way. So that just came out pretty recently. We jumped 25 points or places from last year to this year. So we're definitely able to sell a ton of nonprofits. I love it. Well, yptc.com is the home of all this amazing brain trust. As we mentioned, Eric Frank really had an impact, your founder on Jared and I and we have loved working with all of your team members from Jennifer, Alive, to everybody else on the team. So check out yptc.com. I think you'll learn something and really get some great information. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. And again, we are so honored to have the support day in and day out from folks like Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller where Deanna Peterson joins us from, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out. So great conversation, ladies. Yeah, thank you. It's phenomenal. It's been really good. And I am going to hold in my heart, good thoughts for everybody that has shunned the accounting department or the development team on their way into the office or out of the office. We gotta bring these people back together. So thank you so much. As we end every episode, we'd like to remind ourselves and our viewers and our listeners to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Thank you, ladies.