 We're live. Okay. Hey friends. This is Dan and Stephanie Burke. You're watching behind-the-scenes divine intimacy radio You're not gonna want to miss this show. I'm very excited to have A priest with us who has written a stack of books that everyone should read on the interior life So before we jump into that I want to tell you about a few things That are important actually Stephanie. Why don't you cover the first one? Okay? So gentlemen Husbands out there listen closely if you have an in an inventory point points deficit as well Deficit deficit Anyway, it is Emotional bank account with your wife is overdrawn Emotional checks Then you need to make a deposit and I have the way for you to do this for your for your marriage And it is called the divine intimacy in marriage retreat led by yours truly Dan and Stephanie Burke It's at the shrine of the most blessed sacrament Which should be called the shrine of the most blessed sacrament and the most beautiful shrine in the United States in Hansville, Alabama We are holding this February 10th through 12th of 2023 which is the weekend closest to Valentine's Day hint hint. This is your Valentine's gift all wrapped up This is all you have to do for Christmas and you can give it at Christmas. So you cover like both, right? And You can find out all you need to need all you need to know about this retreat at spiritualdirection.com forward slash events We should put up videos testimonies with all the couples who have attended and have been impacted by this It is a game changer We do not sing kumbaya. We will not make you hold hands. We don't make hugs Yeah, none of that it is a real retreat for real marriages, whether they're beginning in the middle Have been married for many years whether they're thriving or struggling or somewhere in between These are this is an amazing retreat and it's so much fruit base Coming out of it and it's rooted in the interior life. It's not rooted in most these kinds of retreats are Foundationalists in psychology, which I'm not speaking against here, but our that's not our approach So the last thing I want to tell them about that we'll jump into the show is We only have eight seats left on our pilgrimage to Spain a Carmelite pilgrimage And that's Stephanie. I'll be leading and I will be teaching through during the pilgrimage the devil in the castle Which is the last book the latest book I've written on the progress of the soul and spiritual warfare according to Saint Teresa of Avalon her and the interior castle and what she reveals there So go to spiritualdirection.com forward slash events to find all this kind of stuff out Yeah, everything that we provide is deep water. We're not gonna get fluff here as with the show today, right? And this is serious deep water. This is no excited. No fluff central. Welcome our guests, right? You ready to roll? Yes, any markets that go this day Anna Stephanie Burke. Welcome to divine Intimacy radio your radio haven of rest your hermitage of the heart your monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven To draw upon the wisdom of the saint and today I Am excited to draw upon the wisdom like if I have you know top ten saints This saint is in the top ten lists. Don't you have to oh, oh saint John of the cross, right? What we I thought you were you were claiming that father Haggerty was already a saint I didn't I wasn't claiming that you see my mind I didn't know any and I don't know them well enough to know But it's not my job anyway I don't have any pull in that department and I think he has to die first miracles, right? Right, but he's actually on the show today. Yeah, so you want to tell people who this guy is yes Okay, so father Donald Haggerty is a priest of the Archdiocese of New York He is currently serving at st. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City He has been a professor of moral theology at st. Joseph's seminary in New York and Mount st. Mary's seminary in Maryland And has a long association with mother Teresa's missionaries of charity Working with them and giving retreats for them. He's the author of many books on the interior life and Most recently the book that we're going to talk about today Which is st. John of the cross master of contemplation an amazing book and also we want to let you know that he is now Teaching in our high-calling program Preparing men to enter into seminary. We're very excited to have him join our staff Yeah in this capacity and so welcome father Haggerty. So happy to have you Thank you Stephanie. Thank you Dan. I appreciate it. So I would make that top 10 list there, but Well, if you die soon and you know If they rush the the canonization and I'm still alive then you I'll put I promise Santos I'll hold a slot for you I'll do the same for you there. Thank you. Well, I will say to our listeners that every I don't say this for every author not that I withhold but Everything that father Haggerty has written is worth reading. It's worth money. It's worth time But this one in particular was very I Was very excited. I received the men's script before it was published and I kept bugging Ignatius When is it gonna publish? When is it gonna be published? When is it gonna be published because I wanted to get Father Haggerty on I wanted to get it out there. I don't think there there haven't been many books That even in memory that I was so excited about seeing come to print then this book in the book is titled st John of the Cross Master of contemplation and why am I so excited because I was under contract to write this book for a different publisher and Really since In the point being that one of the things that I do is I try to bring complex Theological ideas and interior life teachings into Context that's easily accessible accessible to everyone not not not lowering the cookies on the shelf It's still deep but accessible and I my I've abandoned that project because this book came to print And I'm grateful because it was a huge task and frankly Didn't feel I was worthy to do it or or able to do it What so when I saw this I thought oh good. I can cancel that contract and and And just promote this book in its place. So Father Haggerty Thank you for writing this Let's start with John of the Cross. Who was he and why does he matter? John of the Cross was a Carmelite priest from the 1500s he was a contemporary of St. Teresa of Abilah and 27 years younger than her but he is that from that time of the Protestant Reformation he was born three years before the first session of the Council of Trent and he is extraordinarily important for those who want to take silent prayer the interior life and Sanctity you know in a serious way and I know myself of no better Guide than John of the Cross you mentioned I've had much time with missionaries of charity and I think it's common perhaps many of your viewers would say they might think St. John of the Cross is a bit too high level for their For their spiritual life and I disagree. I think he's worth More than worth plunging into but this is why I wrote the book also I think probably Dan you have the same thing in mind that we should make him accessible For those who are serious about the spiritual life and But he's a Carmelite priest. He's a man of great depth and interior He affected St. Teresa of Lizu in an enormous way St. Edith Stein St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross wrote a book on him When she was a Carmelite, so he's a great figure. He's the mystical doctor of the church Pope St. John Paul wrote his doctoral dissertation on him and was much affected by Carmelite life So I would just say he's he's a must read I think for anyone serious about spiritual life You know that the key I think you alluded to the Perception of John and some of the challenges a lot of people as they approach his works Usually they pick up Dark Knight of the Soul first because it's the most popular Title associated with him or idea and that I think that's why most people are most people don't do well But that's not where you should start with John Aside from reading a book like yours if you were just going to jump into John Who would you recommend? What what books of his would you recommend they read first? Well, I would read first his aphorisms which are in the collected works and entitled sayings of light and love and You know, they're very pointed. There's about 25 pages almost 30 pages of these aphorisms and he is It's kind of the they're short statements, but very much Inclusively covering so many of the spiritual topics that John of the Cross will Will treat in more extended ways in his works So I would read those and I think the beginning of the spiritual canticle is so rich Mm-hmm. I suggest in the book To read through the poem of the spiritual canticle John of the Cross is a very great poet also in Spanish language and His poetry has richness even in translation So I and then I think the ascent to Mount Carmel is Most for most people the place to begin because he will treat his ascetical theology in the beginning of the the first book of the ascent Wonderful, so that's a great segue into a quote from the amount the Ascent of Mount Carmel that I wanted to read from your book that you included that I think for those who have never Read Saint John of the Cross or studied him or or maybe this is brand new. This will give you a glimpse into the beauty of And the goal of his writing what what he's trying to teach us Which is is just endless his wisdom is endless in this so this is from ascent to Mount Carmel two five three and seven Supernatural union exists when God's will and the souls are in conformity So that nothing in the one is repugnant to the other when the soul reads itself completely of what is repugnant and Unconformed to the divine will It rests transformed in God's through love in God through love a Soul makes room for God by wiping away all the smudges and smears of creatures By uniting its will perfectly to God's For to love is to labor to divest and deprive oneself for God of all that is not God When this is done, the soul will be illumined by and transformed in God Hmm. I love that. I love that beautiful passage and isn't isn't that a good summary of the whole Purpose of his work. Is that how you see? His whole effort to come to that reality You know absolutely and Sometimes we we would identify John of the cross as the great teacher of contemplation and a great teacher of prayer But he's really teaching as Stephanie is alluding to him that he has a beautiful passage The great desire for union with God And it is a it is a word that Therese of Abel also liked Conformity with the will of God And when we speak about prayer prayer does not grow for any of us Unless we are seeking You know, sincerely honestly in great truth to give our will In a surrender to the will of God that Action outside of prayer is seeking to delight God to please him So that's a great requirement for prayer And it's the goal of life to become one with God if we ask what is a saint? They are people who became one with God. That's a That is the ultimate goal yeah So In this effort to make him accessible to all which I think your your book does a beautiful job Um, would you consider? I mean, there's many that would consider saint john of the cross a spiritual writer only suitable for aspiring mystics And for those who live in the enclosure in the enclosure of cloisters and monasteries Is that true? Is that a a true statement? Or is he? As you and and dan have spoken about and and if I have come to learn He's he's there for all of us Well, he's there for those who are serious about spiritual life. I'm not sure I would Recommend saint john of the cross for a person who doesn't want to spend time in prayer Which says I have no time for it But we know I know as a priest now there are many people lay people Who are giving time to prayer? Every priest, you know religious we we are really on the obligation before god to be serious about prayer And you you don't have to be in a cloister or monastery and have in a way the luxury or the The pleasant, you know our environment of silence and solitude to have Serious need for silence and solitude in a portion of our life So if you do give yourself to prayer at least a half hour a day, but it could be much longer But if you're doing that then john of the cross is an essential guide for for prayer So and he's in a guide for the spiritual life the quote that we just mentioned he has much teaching on this giving of ourself Exclusively to god as the one thing needful everything else follows from that Very good. Well, why don't we go to the break and when we come back? We'll continue our conversation with father donald haggarty Author of st. John of the cross master of contemplation a book that every catholic Who's serious about growing in prayer and the interior life should read? So we'll be right back And uh, so it during the break. Can you grab me that sheet? I just want to tell folks about one more thing going on Um Oh, look at that Father robert altair is now teaching a course for us. Wow So we have the best modern book of st. John of the cross that we're talking about today in my opinion Uh written by father donald haggarty the best book written on marriage I know that i've ever read so excited is by father robert altair It just came out and we helped him with that and getting it published through sofia And and he's teaching a course on it, which I didn't know So the course will consider the spiritual and it's here's the thing about it like with father haggarty And like with a divine intimacy and marriage retreats Our whole you know Everything we do is really grounded in the interior life and helping people Come to union with god through your marriage through your you know in your work all of that This book I really frankly and I don't often do this because I'm kind of more conservative I believe the blessed mother gave him this book I don't think it's purely of human origin. It is so profound unusual And it was vetted by cardinal berck. So It is different new and unusual But in order to make sure it wasn't out beyond what what what should have ever been written You know, he sent it to cardinal berck to check out who's a you know an extraordinary theologian And cardinal berck has then since Recommended it himself to others So we're so grateful and it just it just came into print Um, we liked it so much. We wrote the forward We wrote the forward and it's called god's plan for your marriage. So that course begins tuesday november first Which is pretty quick 2022 And if you want to understand like if you're a therapist This this will add dimension to your to your practice like no other If you're someone who wants to improve your marriage Husband or wives you can take this together. It will be Mind-blowing and I hate to use You know hyperbolic phrases like that But frankly it will be because it is so different Because of the depths of its connection with the Eucharist with the holy sacrifice of the mass Just stuff that you would never consider When you're when you're meditating on marriage and and where it comes from and father altair Is an extraordinary teacher. He's he's really exceptional. So Go to avala-institute.org for for that course and many others the That that we offer to priests religious and lady in over 90 countries. I think by now around the world Check that out avala-institute.org. Okay, let's jump back in So where before we jump back in I just want to get my mind around the last question you asked him Was about the is it just Yeah, is it for everybody? All right. Well, let's come back in. I want to make a comment about that and then we'll jump into Yeah, I thought at some point I might talk about the first time I experienced st. John Okay, great. Yeah, good. So Uh, I'll make a brief comment about Is it for everybody and then you want to go to that? Story sure. I don't know that it's connected to that but okay. I was just going to say my my first experience of yeah Well, we'll do that. Yeah, okay on your mark. It's at go. This is Dan Stephanie Burke. Welcome back to divine intimacy radio We're with father donald hagarty and a book that everyone who's serious about prayer in the interior life about growing spiritually should read and I and and this book. I don't know if any many of you know, I have a lifetime spiritual reading program And I can only put so many books on that this book's going on that list, right? I need to update the list Um, it is absolutely fantastic exceptional published by ignatius Press he's done us a great gift in in writing this for us before the break. We were talking about is You know, john of the cross for everyone. It's interesting to know You know, people think well st. Francis sales is kind of the doctor of the church spiritual doctor Who writes for laity and of course, uh, his great work introduction to the devout life was written for his Cousin, I think young cousin was getting married, but john of the cross father hagarty Also wrote, uh, I think living flame of love was written to a lay person. Was it not? That's correct. A spanish lay woman. Yeah And it's a rich work It is and it's not light either But you know, I don't think if you start in the right place like father hagarty said he He recommended the aphorisms or the sayings of light and love which are just these beautiful short little reflections On on the interior life or spirits or canticle or live a living flame of love Those are all the best places to begin then go to the scent of mount carmel And probably would you say, uh The dark night of the soul would be last Generally where I would put it Uh, the thing is the the beginning of the dark night of the soul has a great Section I wrote a chapter in the book on it in which john of the cross addresses in nine short chapters The problems that people Uh, what he calls this the spiritual capital vices Yeah, you know in which as an example instead of gluttony too much eating the gluttony for pleasant or Consoling experiences in spiritual life or those who want attention to themselves, you know too much and So that that first the first nine chapters are very accessible to even a beginning person Who has started to pray and take God seriously? Good good. Well, Stephanie, you had what was your first? You had something that happened to you went to your first encounter with john I remember in spain. There was something that happened. Yeah, that's what I was going to talk about and and this alludes back to You know Who is st. John of the cross for and and it's for anybody who wants to take Progress in the interior life progress in prayer seriously and I had already been praying You know since we first met because you actually taught me how to pray Um by God's design and by his mercy and so I'd been praying Daily mental prayer for about 10 years at that point So about five years ago we went on our first trip to spain Carmelite spain and we were going to follow the steps of teresa and st. John and My focus was on st. Teresa because I knew a little bit about her. I'd read a little bit of her works and And I just thought I you know, I I don't know my attention was kind of going that way But every time we went to us to a site where st. John of the cross like where he'd had his first mass or I remember the first time I saw the confessional Um, where was that that was in la con nación outside outside of I said it right Outside of avila spain, right? It's where she first Was in the conda right and and when I saw His is confessional because it was like this little hole in the wall that created for him And I loved her affectionate Name that she had for him, which was her little her half fryer. Yeah, I think she was a little sarcasm in that But anyway, I was just so drawn to it. But when I saw it, I actually emoted like I just went to tears I had this overwhelming sense of his presence of his Care of the soul of of what he had meant to them and the instrument He was in that community and so everywhere we went like I I would go to tears and dance looking at me going What is going on with you? And I said I don't know but I think I have to read st. John of the cross I think I'm being called Because often the saints call us we don't pick them they pick us And so I came back and and you guided me and I started to read his works and Ended up giving a retreat actually to a group of religious Um in spanish using his works in spanish the precautions the precautions to a religious community Which was like I knew when I was there I said this is you know So much more for me than I think for all of you and it ended up being a beautiful grace on all sides, but Anyway, he's just so so incredible and so honestly if you're if you have any kind of serious desire To reach union with god and and and you place an importance on prayer in the interior life Um, this is the st. John of the cross is for you so Which leads me into the next question So st. John of the cross perceives a great importance in the catholic doctrine of the indwelling presence Of the holy trinity in the soul, which I think is Sometimes so difficult for us to even imagine or or wrap our heads around How does this truth affect the soul's relationships with god in contemplative prayer? Um, what what are we to make of this? How can st. John of the cross help us to understand? Well, the doctrine, uh, Stephanie, um, as you know is That's central to catholic understanding. Jesus will speak of this at the last supper in chapter 14 of john And the gift of the holy spirit given to us is also the gift of the father and son You know dwelling within us. What is uh crucial for john of the cross and for prayer Is his stress on the hiddenness of god his concealment Even as he dwells in the depth of our soul So I think most catholics myself included I most most of my silent prayer I spend in front of a tabernacle So I know the real presence of all lord there and there is a A certain engagement with all lord in prayer, but the reality of god Concealed hidden to be sought, you know as one who hides in the depth of our inner spirit That's crucial for prayer that the intellect The will the memory that our whole being actually is In some way and mystery You know permeated by the presence of god and that he's never far away And that silent prayer opens us up then to the depth of god's being within us It's beautiful beautiful. I you know, I'm tempted to keep talking on that subject, but something struck me You're a diocesan priest We have a lot of priests who listen to the show. I've had many priests say that they listen to it as they prepare for mass on sunday How is it that you have time for mental prayer? How is it? Why is it so important for you? That you spend time and in not a small diocese With not no small responsibilities on your plate How do you how do you make time and you know give advice to the priests who are listening? I think it's it's pretty important I think the answer is quite simple there. You have to get up early in the morning and I remember one time you bring that up Some priests that I was with in Rome and when I was studying I knew mother Teresa because the missionaries of charity in Over 13 years and we invited her to come and give us a little talk So there are about 10 of us in the chapel of the missionaries of charity and one of their convents in Rome And mother Teresa had a sense of humor, but also serious, you know, she is a saint and she said to us I think One of the most serious problems of the priesthood is that the priests stay up too late watching television And they don't get up in the morning to pray Wow, let's pray in the morning have some prayer You know, nobody's ringing the doorbell at five in the morning. So You know, you you can get the time in the thing is you have to also maybe go to bed You know at a normal hour But uh, you know prayer is available in the morning. I think to any priest who wants that and So I I've always had that pattern in my life and And then, you know, we add to it if you can in a latter part of the day So did your did your commitment begin when you were in seminary or when did you When did you start practicing mental prayer? I started uh, I would say before that because I had been living as a volunteer with missionaries of charity for a year In their men's shelter in the Bronx and that was a nice good environment Also another volunteer who was serious about prayer And I went into the missionary charity fathers for a year and a half So I by the time I was in the seminary. I was accustomed to that need for prayer And I think, you know, it's good for the for your listeners to hear that that You know, sometimes jump into the water just commit And get into the church every day Some manner serious commitment in prayer and it's like a person who starts jogging or You know exercising, you know two weeks one month later something is different within Yeah, it's just so very important and I've I've given that advice To my directies as well, you know when when because the the argument just as it is with perhaps with Too many priests is I'm too busy Or I try and I just can't seem to fit it in and the revelation came to me with the paradigm shift of Instead of trying to fit prayer into my life I was going to look at my my agenda for the week for the month And say what am I committing to the Lord first? What am I going to give him in prayer? And that would go an ink in my in my agenda everything else went in pencil And then I went to that and my life shifted so dramatically because instead of Trying to fit prayer into my life My life became an outpouring of that prayer And it changed everything Everything in my being was transformed with that prayer. I'm no longer the person I was 15 years ago 20 years ago 30 years ago I'm a totally different creature And I have such joy and peace in that and and I tell others this is possible for you It's actually God's desire For you that you be fully alive in him, but it might must start on your knees You know and in your life becomes an outpouring of that grace Well, it says it very well Stephanie and you know that that's that really separates people You know, there are many good people many good priests, you know, very active and they're generous But to be committed in prayer to give silent time You know before our Lord, especially if we have the luxury of going to him in a tabernacle or adoration in the monstrance I mean, there's nothing like that and I think once you get seized by That, you know, there's also struggle, but The reality of that you get caught in a beautiful way and then God has his way of being very personal then in our lives much more. Yeah So we'll call that ensnared in the love of God So with that we need to end but we want to invite you to jump over to spiritual To the spiritualdirection.com facebook page where we're going to continue With a second interview with father hagrity on st. John of the cross Also, I want to tell folks that you can get the book at EWTN's religious catalog, which is important when you order from them two really interesting things happen one They actually send you the book and the second thing is that you're helping the mission of EWTN so please Any any of the goods you're looking for its best place to be okay? So until next time may the god of peace make you perfect in holiness May he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our lord jesus christ. Amen. Amen All right, so what we