 Efallai, lyswch eich adegau. Rwy'n會f am y mwy o'n helaidd. Mae'r ddauogul Gyt nagra. Mae'n doha rasio fitfyn oedd y gallu rhyngwuniais. Roedd diwrnod o'r Siwaeth Rwytaeth Cymru. Mae'r ffaith i ddweudio arni ac mae'r f��ogaeth hynny, mae hynny'n gwybod ni'n gweithio i'r rhain. Ychwanegau ar ei ddweud â'r ymu gyfan. Ynコchain i gynnwys i'r hynny, yw'r wlad yn effeithio. Mae'r partynwys yng Nghymru yn y Llyfriddor Bryddoedd, y cyfnodd ychydig yn oed yn ymgyrchol yma'r ysgol Llyfriddor RSL 200. Mae'n fwyaf o'r ffordd a'r ffordd o'r disgusiau gyda'r ffainio'r gwaith i'r rhai cyfnoddau a'r ddweud. Mae'r ffainio'r gweithio yn y ddweud. Mae'r ffainio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r ddweud. Cyfnodd yn ddod, ac rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Gillian Anderson. Ddod. Ddod. Brian Eno. Stephen Fry. Ddod. Neil Gaiman. David Harewood. Marlon James. Michael. Yn ymlaen chi'n Michael, rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n Michael Pailin. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Claude Rankeen. Allie Barba. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio, allie Smith. Mae'n ddim yn ddod. Esrwynt Llywodraeth. Bernadine Everesto. Oh! Very good. So, dynno. If we can pat ourselves on the back. But tonight we're really lucky to be hearing from two humangersly impressive and stellar writers who should be part of that list after today's event. You'll be part of that list so you can be assure of yourselves. Amanda Ainietschi a Marina Hyde as a... Yeah, most stellar of all you see. As they discuss their passion, they're going to discuss their passion for great storytelling. And they're going to explore their shared love of satire. And they'll consider why literature matters to them, won't you? Yes. Can I also mention in passing that if you enjoyed today's discussion, you may want to tune into my very own radio programme on Radio 4 Extra, which is programmes called Poetry Extra, because I recently broadcast the verse that stings Armando. Do you remember that ring a bell? You had a fascinating discussion with Ian Hyslop about satire years ago. We have on Poetry Extra, we've retrieved it from the archive, especially for you. Do I get any money? It does actually, yes. Your agent should know, yes. But you've only got about five more days to hear that programme. It's a riveting conversation. There's a conversation about Pope and the Thick of It. Do you want to mention some? Alexandra Pope and the Thick of It, as though they were the same one poem. Anyway, back to the Royal Society of Literature, which is a UK's charity for the advancement of literature for everyone. If you like to know about the amazing work we do with schools, key workers, authors from diverse backgrounds, if you'd like to know more about literary excellence and the winners of many annual awards and prizes. If you would like to attend our one year round programme of dazzling events, such as this one, Free of Charge, then you should join the happy ship of the RSL and become a member, so that a heap of riches can immediately enrich your intellectual lives. Do you want to find out more online or at the welcome desk in the foyer tonight? That's the end of my plug. Now, I'm delighted to introduce Marina Hyde, who will in turn introduce Armando Iannucci. Their conversation will last for roughly an hour. Following that conversation, there will be a chance for audience questions. Now, these can be in person and online, so Lily is sat there and she will be taking the questions. So please feed your questions to her and she can read them out later on as required. So now, my introduction for Marina Hyde. Marina Hyde is a columnist whose work I and everyone I know who has sufficient brain cells greatly enjoys reading in The Guardian. Where she writes on subjects from politics to sport to celebrity. One of her most recent pieces was about the intrepid and unsolvable case, the puzzling and mysterious case known as Wagathor Christie. In October 2022, my very own dear publisher, if I am a poet, Faber and Faber, will be publishing a collection of Hyde columns entitled, What Just Happened? Dispatches from turbulent times. I hand you over to our turbulent lady now, Marina Hyde, thank you. Thank you. Thank you all so much for coming and also hello to everyone who is watching us on the Living Knowledge Network for our various libraries around the country and also online in other ways. I'm sitting on stage with my absolute stone cold comedy hero, Armando Iannucci. He is the man behind on the hour, the day to day, partridge, time trumpet, Saturday night armistice in the thick of it, Veep Avenue 5. I've had to list some of these just because there's so many things that he's done that I might actually forget some really important ones. In terms of movies, we've got In the Loop, Death of Starling and The Personal History of David Copperfield and it's just an unbelievable canon of total bangers really. During the pandemic obviously when I was really impressed by like everyone who baked banana bread and stuff, of course this man would write a 680 line epic poem in the style, Miltonic I believe. It is an extraordinary thing and I really want to know how you did it. Did you do like ten lines at a go? Well yes, it sort of happened, yes so it's a mock, I call it a tiny epic because most epics are about 12 volumes of a thousand lines of volume. It fell out, nobody asked me to do it. I think with a lot of people, I'm sitting there in lockdown in that mixture of confusion and fear and concern but also the strange timeless what are we going to do today more or less what we did yesterday. Not knowing when it was going to end, the sadness about it but also that kind of sense of community that was developing at the same time. All these sort of mixed kind of emotions and I did think as the months went on, what will my response to this be? Will it be like a comedy? Will it be a film or a drama? What will it be? And then this kind of a poem fell out and I started doing it almost as a kind of, I think therapy for myself really, just a way of trying to articulate what was going on and I found it emerged quite quickly although I say that, I did about five or ten lines but I then put them aside and then a month went by and then I thought oh I wonder if, and then I added more so it was then 40 lines and then I put them aside and then another month went by and then gradually the pace picked up and I kind of arrived at this notion of, I mean it tells the story of, I've been reading a lot of Milton, I read a lot, I spent three years trying to write a PhD on Paradise Lost and I suppose in the pandemic, like a lot of people, I started reading those big long books, the Iliad and the Odyssey and Divine Comedy and so on and I think with all that merging around I thought the way I wanted to express what had been happening was in that style of the great heroic poem, The Bay Wolf, that when people sit down and tell tales of our heroes and how they fought this and so I tell the story of this godlike figure called Orbis Rex, which means world king and how the gods have feared that that title might frighten us and they turn Orbis into Boris and that makes it feel much more appealing and just his tale of how he took on, he smoked the bat that brought the poison and tell it like that, tell it like a heroic tale really. It's the perfect form really because I know that so many people were struggling about like how could they make something about it and I know you read Failures of State, that really good book about it. I remember you saying, it may be so angry. Actually quite shaking with that, physically angry. You should have got to keep the anger out. The chapters on how people who were vulnerable or elderly, the paramedics were told don't bring them into hospital, just tell them I'm sorry, you'll just have to stay at home and I could feel myself physically getting quite worked up. It's hard to be angry when you're that angry, it's hard to be funny. I think you have to temper it, but I think you have to give it 24 hours before you not do that email, that poisonous email you send to your bank or something and then send and then just go, I really shouldn't send that. But I think anyone who writes will say you can't really write something until you feel the need to. Now whether it's anger or whether it's admiration or whether it's enjoyment or enthusiasm, there has to be something that makes you want to go I'd like to write something about that. For me that's where it is. Something like think of it, emerged because I was angry about Blair and Bush and Iraq because at the time we all thought this is nonsense. What are they doing? And when it happened, I wanted to know why does government work in the UK in such a way that a prime minister can do that and that therefore led to me probing her own white hole and asking people how does it work and then coming up with something. But the thing if it wasn't about Blair and Bush and Iraq but the emotion led to the work as it worked. It was born out of that particular style of process that became so amazing. People who watched that then saw it happening. You gave a name to ordinary people who don't necessarily look in and watch that. I remember the first time we watched that with my husband and we got to the other first episode and he was like, that was amazing. And I just said, but it was so realistic. Because it was so, I remember, and I know you always really like to think the realism has to come first. So research goes in and you speak to people and I spoke to ex-cabinet ministers and ex civil servants and directors of communication. But I said, I'm not doing a documentary, I'm not out to reveal a scandal. I want to know the boring stuff. What time do you get in in the morning? What time do you go home? If the call came through from a daily mail, who would take the call? And then gradually stories emerge and you begin to get this kind of identity of what a typical minister's office looks like. And the surprise to me was it's run by 24-year-olds. It's run by these spads as they're called. Who did a degree in politics and philosophy and economics at Oxford or in Cambridge. I was a researcher for an MP and then as a junior, then a senior advisor to... It's coming up with health policy. Health policy, when they're 24 or 25, the furlough was probably a couple of 12-year-olds. And that for me struck me as A, I'm democratic because they're not elected, but B, just extraordinary. And so I wanted to reveal that. I wanted to think of it, I was a big admirer of Yes Minister, which still stands up and is amazing, shall. But the dynamic in Yes Minister was about the civil service trying to stop the minister from doing anything. And that's gone. For me, the dynamic was the minister having no power because... It was so centralised in number 10. Centralised in number 10. And this group of, they were called enforcers, which makes them sound like the dementors, who fan out from number 10 across Whitehall going into the different departments and telling the ministers what they can do and what they can do, and fundamentally how much money they have and also what they have to say on news night when they go on. They were just completely infantilised, and they still had these little pages and everything. They were robustly controlled really, and they were ever deviated. And that was where the fun finally came from. I get the feeling now that that doesn't happen and it's just absolute chaos. What do you mean by now? I don't think in number 10 there is a message they want to send out to all the ministers. There's no sense of any news grid or anything. They're perfectly happy doing 30 U-turns before lunchtime and then you just say, oh, it doesn't matter, nobody knows it. It's like a sort of Acorn antiques. There's an episode of Acorn antiques. I don't know if you've seen this one, they have to do it live because they've messed up so badly that they're actually going to have to go out live. They're all in the gallery like this and they've got this monstrous producer who just... Anyway, and Julie Waters comes in without her tray and she's just standing out at this. And then the people are in the gallery going, should we go back? What should we do? She goes, don't worry, we professionals notice. Joe Public never clocks a damn thing. I sometimes feel like, don't they think we can't notice this now with this particular administration? It's so completely chaotic that you're like, what should we be walking and then, no, all right, we'll walk back out again. It's like you have a Liz trust stand in front of a flag and does that. And you're going, what are you doing? It's just always slightly too long. What's the new picture with the apple? Have you seen the new picture with the apple? Is this Liz trust with the apple? It's incredible. There's a part photographic background, but we're in an orchard, and so you can also see the thing, and she's got a single apple on her knee. I've seen no explanation. I don't know what it is. I know she's just hired Florence Johnson's videographer. They've all got these people as all these personal people. Is this to do with the Northern Ireland protocol or is this the... I think you see what you want to see. I wouldn't want to put descriptions around the way you're allowed to play with your thoughts. I am Eve, and I have got. It's like one of... I've got to share it to you. You're going to love it. I mean, it is sort of government by Instagram now. I mean, Risi Sunak is the sort of... I was going to say the master of this, but that no longer applies. He burned so brightly. Now, like a comet, he's left us. Like a little signature. Like a Roman candle. He's now just spluttering. It's just a few little colours and sparks. Don't re-approach the far one. Don't re-approach the far one. He employs a 24-hour Instagram team, doesn't he? Just get him in the casual shoes and the hoodie and the little signature for everything. Also, how is he allowed to do that? That's the other thing. They've got their own fiefdoms and they're just allowed. He just signed off on everything. Actually, his money. I'm aware he has got quite a lot of money, so maybe... No, I think that is the thing. I think under Boris Johnson there is no control because there's no care. He's not bothered by the fact that other cabinet ministers are building up their empires because he sort of thinks, well, I'm Prime Minister. But I think he would have been spitting at that little one next door, just like Gina Gershin and Snow Show girls having to push Elizabeth Barclay having to push Gina Gershin down the stairs. He's just had enough of that. Is the Apple thing just deliberately so that Boris Johnson can spend a whole day going, what is this? Is this good? I wish Dominic was still here because I don't understand. So I think that's all gone. Do you think Johnson never thought that he was a satirist to some extent? Yes, in a way. Have you read his novel? Yes, I have. I own it. I own it, but I haven't read it. I strongly advise. Is it funny? No, it's hugely unfunny. I find all his writing hugely unfunny, but yes, I think it might be... I think he has gone away with the fact that people think he is witty and a good speaker. All the stuff about the EU in a way is satirised about a place that actually wasn't real because it wasn't true. So he did create this almost real retainium bureaucracy of whatever, where all these weird things were happening, but none of it was true. But I think in a way he really felt that he was allowed, he had a sort of licence, but everyone knew it wasn't really real. When he used to write a column about that, about how they're going to make all the bananas straight and all that, the fact that he would then be commissioned to write a column was justification for him that therefore what he's saying worked. I think he's brought that into government as well. He's maybe the most successful satirist ever. He's the only one who's got something. What about Zelensky? He was a satirist. He was. But he had a business sense, and he ran a production company as well. He was political before he actually went into comedy. He did have a sense of Ukrainian's position against Russia and its outlook on the west as opposed to the east and so on. He was one of those sort of savvy comedians who actually could do something else on top of it. But I think what's happened now is that Johnson is part of that breed rather like Trump who they see themselves as public entertainers first and foremost. Actually in the case of both of them Johnson has achieved nothing and I also think that the public kind of know that he's achieved nothing. Belgium went without a government for 589 days and Belgium just kept happening and Johnson has done apart from the pandemic legislation which is one thing he's actually done nothing and yet the country continues which suggests that power lies outside politics and he's a sort of recognized as that because although he's done nothing that's not the point to him. The point to him is not the nothing that he hasn't done or that he hasn't done. The point to him is that it doesn't matter it's about his narrative that he's shaped which is you know, Mayor of London, I got Brexit done no you didn't all the big calls on the vaccine no you didn't but being able to kind of so it's basically I'm great because of my CV and this is part of it I'm adding to my CV by now being Prime Minister but that in itself is the programme for government Boris Johnson's enhanced CV and then Trump was like that as well in that he was more concerned about the ratings more people tweet me, more people came out and voted for me they didn't. The stock market is a form of rating thing. The stock market is doing brilliantly which again, that's also become so unmoored from the economy that it's just another form of rating. It's just more in numbers. And he also didn't absolutely nothing. But that I think is what politics has become and I think it's partly because like you say all the power is somewhere else all the power is with Elon Musk and the tech people the satires really you feel like politics is rather tired, kind of dusty front of house for the real thing that's happening somewhere else. And the other thing I've noticed is that people go into politics now just to become Prime Minister and when they realise they're not going to be Prime Minister they get the hell out. Somebody said of Rishi Tuna at the other week one of his advisers said he's not the sort of guy who would stick around if he's not going to be Prime Minister. I'm so sorry. The idea of public service is such a sort of weird like a what? A what now? No. He's not going to stick around. I remember under Clement Attlee didn't people want to be the health secretary and want to be the foreign secretary or just want to be in the government? My theory on this is that they were all that that was actually an incredibly short period of time where people who had achieved something had gone into politics before the war and the immediate after and after the war. They were launched in this far of this terrible national event and really interesting people who'd done really serious things went into politics but like the whole of the 19th century and before and any time after 1979 is a mess. They're all the same and terrible and so the aberration of these good people who but otherwise I think Rothman Burrow is going all the way back through that but it's maybe always been a bit. I think what's happened now also which they acquire power has reduced it used to be that cabinet ministers were in their 50s and 60s and your prime ministers were in their 60s and even 70s and now if you're not a cabinet minister by the age of 35 then you're not on the right and I sometimes wonder whether people go into politics now just to kind of get that out the way and again to have it on the CV before they then do the thing that they really want to do which has become an entrepreneur you know make money on the boards of directors of various companies. Osbourne who just tried to get on to the times trainee journalism sort of course didn't work out and I'll do politics then a number of things happen and as he leaves shortly after the referendum then it's straight into the evening standard all these other jobs but I was talking to someone who had seen him because then they go on this circuit round and you're with all these other people and he found himself sitting apparently Osbourne found himself I mean even Theresa May gets paid 120 grand a speech he was in this sort of seven star hotel somewhere Theresa May was dreadful but I'd have her back in her heart come back I mean an incredibly limited politician who messed up her cards far worse than she needed to do but yeah take it all day long now at least she'd like turn up she's quite good in the commentary box she's just like Jeff Boycott her hero having to watch her actual beer politician was just remorseous and awful and like I can't watch you grind out another century I can't but now she's in the commentary box she's so lively all the things she says you know she's lively in the House of Commons and she bucks the the rule now which is like she designed a seat she actually is going to carry on opening fates and maiden heads like forever just with no and another one who seems to have flowered in a sort of strange afterlife is Gordon Brown who just seems like again he was a huge figure he was a time time you could see him being part of something like Wilson's kitchen cabinet those kind of really big personalities were already and then you saw actually quite most of the other people during the Balea years thought I just don't think he'd even be made not malice because he was very clever but you say I don't think he'd be making the tea I mean these people were just well I just wonder whether quite a lot of default is you know the Blair system of government which was again that thing of centralising the sofa government centralising the part sofa of death and just wanting to bring in politicians who were fundamentally middle managers and anyone with an iota of personality just got squeezed out I mean most of them died I'm not saying Blair is responsible Don't cure her and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more but all the ones for personalities just slightly got marginalised in the end just got disillusioned and you were left with people do you remember Alan Milburn who I see how deathly quiet he was yes just that kind of he's a blairs well there's a name for the past and it's just that sense of controlling there was one thing that I always find this really moving do you remember Estelle Morris who was education section she said I've got to resign because I'm just actually not good enough to do this role can you imagine what I've learnt to Suella Braferman or Karen Bradley when Estelle Morris resigned that was like the gold standard of resignation there it was the last resignation now the gold standard of resignation is Matt Hancock because he actually he fell in love he's a crime to fall in love but he resigned at the moment it was posted up on the front pages but he did go fair enough you got me I'm off and I think that now seems like we've crossed the threshold where I do genuinely think that people like Morris Johnson genuinely think we're not that bothered anymore about what our politicians are like it would be interesting to see what in the end comes of party gate I'm going to have to update because this book was written before for all party gate I'm going to have to update it because it would be interesting to see whether actually we've arrived at something that does force a prime minister to resign I just feel he'll he will not he definitely wouldn't resign it's just not in the personality type and is it because he genuinely thinks he hasn't done anything wrong or or even is the concept of right and wrong the concept of right and wrong is not even there he just couldn't call us he literally could say the rules and say how important it is to follow the rules go out turn right off the curtain break them no I think it's just the pathology it's just completely no but they might will they to think well it's gone on long enough now we won't do anything about it I think they think they'll get it depends how bad it all is if they think they'll lose their seats but they'll lose because of cost of living yes yes but they've got so many ideas about the cost of living but I think we could burn our books just have you thought of just earning more money have you thought of getting a job in which you earn more money I posted up this I forget her name now but she does a parody of MPs she called Rosie Hull Rosie Hull and she did one yesterday a parody of the interview where playing a Tory MP she said now I mean if for example you are say a carer and you feel that you're not earning enough money then why not become a banker get yourself a position on the board of a set of company directors that I think is one way where I think we should be looking at it and I posted this up and underneath it the comments from people was like God they're the worst aren't they they have a clue the fact that people could actually believe that that was genuinely a Tory MP and it felt perfectly normal perfectly average people constantly think now that she might be one including sometimes I've seen another MP get it wrong in a couple of journalists is that they actually feel like yeah that feels they're about it's about where we are morally just go back to the think of it starting because the very first episode we invented stuff in the think of it thinking well it can't be worse than this and then about a week after we go out we get a call from someone and I'll say how did you find that and the first first episode of the think of it they're all in the back of a car and he's about to announce a policy and then he's told by Malcolm the Treasury has shelved it but I've summoned old country's press so they've got 45 minutes in the back of a car to think up a policy that costs no money but it sounds quite good and I genuinely because we shot the scene but we were still in the back of a car going to the next location I said to the cast well we've got the cameras just improvise policies within three or four years of that episode going out four of their policies had become law had actually become law I mean that's the thing isn't it it's really hard to stay ahead given the time of shooting and editing Chris Hadson came up with a national spare room database which was bedroom tax and James Smith came up and everyone has to have their own plastic bag permanently and the other one was pet aspost which the Blair government brought in duly about a month after the episode went out and I've had various ex ministers years later come up to me and say I've been in the back of that car and I just find it frightening I find it you know these are we write these as jokes we think we are consciously and deliberately exaggerating for comic effect but then to find out that actually we're only just scratching the surface of the commotions going on I mean that with Veep and Trump you would have had such well I'm glad I wasn't doing Veep during the time of Trump because I think Trump is you know he is his own satirist really he's a self-basting satirist is it auto satirical? is the satirist happening as it's being said but I wasn't I was joking they don't get it they're so woke it was the best joke ever it's so good that people don't laugh it's so out of your register you don't understand how good I am I'm the best the best cop you know you will laugh so hard no one but I'm serious I'm a politician but I'm funny so many people so many people love me so many people so many Boris Johnson and Donald Trump have the same sentence structure if you analyse anything they say you'll find there's about five windows open at once because it's a desktop and I say and let me just tell you I understand your concern but if I could just because I think it's important and what I'm looking at it's already got five starts of sentencing and always comes back to well actually I created the bus class he couldn't have himself the one thing you mustn't do is look callous in the face of an elderly person begging for food and heat do you remember when he was trying to get the election after he got one the Tory leadership and he was going around the country just going why wouldn't you give me my election I want my general election and he went to that police academy in Wakefield and they left him standing with the little trainees for so long and this woman had a wighty behind him and she fainted and just you've got to know instinctively if you're that guy I have to look after this woman because I'm a politician and I'll look awful if I don't do something and he's like oh yeah that's my key as you go and he's like oh no you've got to turn around you can imagine if I was thinking just help up just say are you okay and also he was having hard questions so it would have been on every level it would have been the right thing to do to just help her up and say anyway I can't answer any more of your hard questions but he didn't know to do it but it wasn't also that speech where he got bogged down trying to remember a saying or something about the police I don't remember where it was the caution the caution was it he was trying to remember the wording of what a police caution I think he knows it by now he was trying to remember and he sort of kind of froze he went I mean it's like the famous you have the right what is it it's got the ghosts of all these people around him that he asks what is it and it's coming hang on forgive me Frankie Ball said he was buffering it's like slowly and everyone's in suspect your download speed is not very good he constantly looks like totally discombobulative like when he ran into the fridge or when he took the reporter's phone do you remember when he took it and put his bucket on the hide I can't actually believe he's dying I mean I asked the question what is going through that mind but is there anything going through that mind or is it kind of like is it just memory muscles is it just a sort of he's so hollowed out inside isn't it just animatronic is that it but animatronic implies some sort of software intelligence but it's not that it's a sort of lobotomised animatronic just it's but he's a man of appetite and impulses so when he saw the phone he just had to take it how do I deal with a tricky question from a reporter I'm just going to take the phone and you know I'll get out a bit later but also he's always because he's got that you know you're putting the tracks as your runaway train is happening so he's always just thinking what will buy me my next fucking 30 seconds it was this thing that he did in the House of Commons maybe last week where he said anyway I think you're going to be hearing from me because he's having a difficultly question I think you're here for me and the Chancellor with some emergency measures over the next few days people are saying what what are you talking about there's not an emergency budget and then they had to scramble afterwards to breathe just like but you know he bought himself I don't know 15 seconds yeah yeah yeah so what we are in now then is we're exactly like anyone who is in a relationship with Boris Johnson is we're at that point where he's going I'm so sorry I have to apologise and then he'll do it again and then he'll go I don't know why I did that but I am so sorry and then he'll do it again and then he'll go I'm so sorry are we in that kind of you're not 20 years is it is that how long people last with him I think that dwindling my prediction would be dwindling yes so we were meant to talk about the power of narrative and storytelling yeah go on Sata when I did a thing at the Guardian with John Crace he was fantastic somebody said it's great that Sata changes things and I said oh no it doesn't change anything at all it doesn't change your thing people in the audience were really upset like I'd said something terrible about Father Christmas and I said I'm really sorry thank you for thinking it does the John Cleese thing about he was a big fan of a lot of the cabaret that went on in Weimar Germany in the late 20s and early 1930s and it had a magnificent effect and it did so much to stop the rise of Adam and the comedy boom happened in the 1980s all throughout the continuing Margaret Thatcher period so it doesn't I think if you write something thinking this will change how people will vote I think you're on a hiding to nothing if it's a comedy because if you want to do that go into politics or go into campaigning journalism or go into local but writing comedy is not going to change people's political opinions whether it hopefully it might allow people to take a fresh look at something it might throw up an interesting it might throw up an unusual slant and something people now say the whole time they're sick of it they've seen something rendered and they can see it new for the first time isn't that thing in I'm trying to think what it's from maybe from the critic's artist Oscar Wilde says sunset didn't exist before Turner painted them they didn't happen now I can see this there's no terrible politicians before the thing sometimes I think the think of it the only thing that's inaccurate about the think of it there's no scene in the think of it that says this is just like a scene from the think of it that's the one thing we didn't see unfortunately but that sort of thing it comforts I definitely think it comforts the well they say that worries me if it's a comfort to the people it's being done to not to the people we're in although actually funny enough people do misunderstand things like that people really misunderstand Michael Lewis wrote that great book on Wall Street in the 80s and it was like an unbelievably moral book also Brett Easton Ellis wrote American Psycho which again I think is an unbelievably moral book and people just completely misunderstood them lots of people go out to Michael Lewis all the time and say I went on to Wall Street because of that book but that's okay you're supposed to copy it imagine how I feel when I meet someone who says I went into politics because Malcolm Cupca is my hero I've just remembered something going back to the day today question time live from Wembley Stadium in the referendum they said it's question time live from Wembley you're not supposed to do it it's a joke and that's the thing that worries me so we stopped doing the think of it when they started courting the think of it in the speeches and Ed Miliband called Osborne's budget and Omnishamble's budget and Cameron had to go at Jeremy Corbyn and say it's like an episode of the think of it and I thought okay it hasn't achieved its required effect which is to radically improve politics across the board but I think that is and I do sometimes wonder it's a question I ask myself almost like being Dibble's advocate you know we have this tradition in the UK of satire and you know we've talked about Alexander Pulp and Swifton and we don't have revolutions we don't really have you know big riots we have some riots but we don't have whereas you know in France they have protestant riots I don't know what their satire is like and I just wonder whether actually I mean the biggest riot we had was when we all assembled that's like Buckingham Palace saying they should raise the flag because Diana that was the biggest that was the big polite but firm riot that went across the board but I do wonder whether actually the fact that we are so keen to tell jokes about authority and is that actually preventing us from actually getting down and dirty and actually trying to change stuff I'm kind of a hypothetical but I don't genuinely know the answer to that but it's something I keep asking myself If you think people always hold Swift up as the absolute sort of ideal and then he writes a modest proposal which I don't know if you've all read but it suggests that perhaps the poor could eat their babies and then that way deal with the population problem and also with this hunger problem and nothing happens and then they have Irish family four years later so nothing really sometimes it's a bit of a wonder But it wouldn't surprise me if a Tory minister now went on the television and I know a lot of you some of you might not like this but this will kill two birds with one stone so I do wonder whether in a way a big satirical tradition acts as a kind of pressure valve safety valve on our kind of somebody said that every joke is a revolution that doesn't happen there's some line about I can't remember who said it though so sorry that's not very literary just that you said it you know yes so I think there's I always think that Americans they don't have that big tradition they don't have such a tradition like sketch writing just such a wave what is interesting in America now is that the people who did land punches on Trump were strange to comedians who became journalists in the same way that Trump became the entertainer like John Oliver the researchers so that take was okay he thinks he can say anything and get away with it but let's take you through some of the things that either he has said or that have happened will arrange them in a sort of funny way but fundamentally there are a presentation of facts so they become almost like the jokes have become factual late night is a sort of news people get the news from John Oliver in the late night another thing though I do think about that which is I sometimes think I was reading a book about David Letterman who's obviously there kind of bigfoot in some ways because he was so sort of iconic for a whole generation of those people but you get the sense that when Letterman is doing his show that you know people who vote both ways are watching it and I just feel now that in some ways that kind of satire has become so siloed that you know it's impossible really to imagine anyone on the other side watching John Oliver even though I think John Oliver is absolutely amazing Exactly, it has become siloed with the preponderance being you know comedians on the left just because I can't imagine how jokes on the right would work because fundamentally if you're if you are a right wing you want things to be preserved and revered rather than undermined and challenged that's a massive generalisation I would say that but fundamentally when the Nadine Dora's of this world which is Nadine Dora's say why all comedians on the left wing it's not all comedians on the left wing it just so happens that comedy is about twisting the truth and exaggerating and actually literally being unfair I mean the joke is about being unfair it's about stretching something to breaking point it's about coming up with stuff rather than just stating facts and I think that is a kind of typically slightly more subversive type of behaviour which happens to coincide a lot with how voices on the left or the centre-left work that's again that's a very broad explanation but I think that's why that happens you do get lots of people on the right who say terrible things and then when there's outrage just say I was only joking but it's just they're not very good jokes they try to shut I do think they don't try to shut down jokes as much as now people on the left to some extent do I think that there's much more of a you know there's more of a the policing side people on the right will take it better in my that's another thing that people have stopped except if you have to be cultured secretary and just say I've just shut down the networks that's what I'll do I talked to in his up about this once and he said that it was really they'd noticed a whole new thing at Private Eye which is that people had always taken it on both sides with a magazine and then suddenly there were people coming through saying well you know I'm actually the first people they noticed cancelling their subscriptions with the Scottish Nationalist saying I've always liked your magazine but I don't actually like what you're doing now about this so I'm going to catch on my subscription and then actually the Brexiteers came through and then Corbynites came through saying I used to like this but I don't like it anymore because it's about my team and that I think is a much I think that happens more that happens more and that has become a more worrying thing because I don't feel it but I know maybe younger comedians they worry about what their joke their writing might be and whether someone might be upset by it I mean I've had a very good relationship with my Twitter followers but the only time I get anything that's towards abusive is from Scottish Nationalist or from Jeremy Corbyn's supporters because I once or twice tweeted that his position on anti-Semitism could do with a bit of improving really and to this day I still get you know if I say how terrible you know the government is on poverty I get tweets on like well all because of you you know you chose them not me no Sasar does nothing I didn't choose the Tory government and I did get one saying you know you had to go at Jeremy Corbyn for accusations of anti-Semitism but you've let in this Tory government children are dying under them who would actually prefer the death of children than if the matter of anti-Semitism and the Labour Party was resolved I thought no that's a very I can't remember saying any of those words last week I wrote an incredibly facetious joke about right at the end just as a way to get off stage arguing on the internet is like playing real tennis even if you win you're still a twat it's the last you know and good night and anyway and this guy who's from the real tennis association of course wrote a letter to the Guardian saying I've always enjoyed this Maria's High's column imagine my shock to discover this slur against real tennis and I was like okay it's a facetious joke and maybe a shared one but it's not a slur we know what slur to me is like a and I just thought how can that a real tennis it is a slur you're implying that people are playing real tennis a twat just play action tennis sorry but anyway I'm not going to get into tennis but I just thought the slur is no but my problem is though yes it is a slur and so what what's wrong with being offended but I really feel like ten years ago no one would have preferred to joke about real tennis as a slur because something in the slur we knew what slas were and they were the really bad imagine you walk up with lots of real tennis players outside your house just chanting after this if anyone's watching can I just say I'm trying to but I do racket I'll get on to that but I do think it's important that we should be affected at things because it's important that our beliefs are tested if you have a set of opinions and they can't take a joke then how have you really how strongly are you holding on to those opinions if they start falling apart at the first time and I think what we've kind of lost is that sense of challenging each other and being happy to hear an opposing point of view it might get you annoyed it might get you angry but then you should feel you should be able to argue you are against it I'll be funny back because you're never going to you're never going to change people's minds if you're only speaking to the people who agree with you the only way you're going to change people's minds if you speak to people who slightly disagree with you maybe very much disagree but that's how you're going to at any political party that's how they're going to enlarge their support that's how they're going to enlarge their base I think the worrying thing that's happening in politics now is that more and more politicians feel they have to speak to their base which is fair enough they've got to get the loyal supporters out and voting enthusiastically but then what then how do you grow and the only way you grow is by approaching members of the electorate who didn't vote for you last time and trying to add a unifying story for everybody it's not like you have to change all your beliefs in order to make them happy but at least try and find out what was the motivation for why they didn't vote what are the concerns that they feel you or your predecessor wasn't addressing and therefore you might find I'm sorry I can't help you we are just going to have to disagree but you might also find something that makes them think okay yeah might not work, I'll give it a go I don't know but you're certainly not going to and the other thing that's happening is of course you get people like especially in the Republican Party in America who recognise this who know this that it's actually not about expanding your base it's just now about stopping the others from voting you've expanded your base as much as you can there's no way you're going to get anyone else to believe in Q and on and the election was stolen you've got all of them so it's now about stopping all of them and that's what does worry me about things like the fact that they've just voted through last week that next election we're all going to have ID we're going to show proof of ID because of this terrible voter fraud that hasn't been going on at all or things like you know I mentioned Channel 4 the government said no no no we're going to have a consultation with the industry first about thoughts about what we do with Channel 4 they had the consultation 97% of the industry said this is a bad idea so they said yeah but we're going to go ahead with it anyway and it's those stages where actually now it's not about worrying about the opposition or worrying about dissent because we've come up with a system now where that doesn't even enter into the conversation people with dissenting opinions are just no longer valid we've limited it to those who agree with us or who we think that's for me the worry in terms of where we are now although Boris Johnson is incredibly funny he could also spell the end of democracy in the West so discuss five minutes of questions so you've still got five minutes to think of your response to that statement yes but yes and I do think that there's a two it worries me slightly that the left still now preaches too much to it's already and that they're good again they have to reach out beyond and find a way to tell a story that involves both sides of people I can't see any side of that we're getting into I know it's almost like what's that is it entropy when things just get worse it's entropy isn't it I think that may be where politics is especially after the second world war there's this ideal United Nations and freedom to see whatever and that was the kind of high point and then it just sags unless we all start kind of reawakening ourselves to I mean that's part of the reason I made the death of Stalin because I just wanted to make the point that democracy isn't permanent it's only permanent if you keep committing to it and keep renewing it but if you just think ah, take it or leave it me then that's what happens you know there's a vacuum, that's the problem with these political bodies that move apart and don't talk to each other you end up with a vacuum and vacuums are very dangerous because that's when chances and personalities kind of move in and going hey I'm different, why don't you give me a go you know or like in er er it's in the Philippines haven't it, they just elected Marcus's son yeah, I'm different I'm a Marcus give me a go, what could possibly go wrong you know it has one picture of seeing the mother and they were like oh my god that is that Picasso so they just on the war of the stuff you bring in from the country still in your house one moment of footage and they've already found between that has the control of the investigation so they wouldn't be finding any more Picasso at any time soon well it's like Boris Johnson ultimately will decide whether any action should be taken over the conclusions of the Sue Gray report because he's the Prime Minister he gets to decide, I mean that's what we are and Britain does have because we have an unwritten constitution we have this system in which any Prime Minister with a large majority has complete power there are no checks and balances even an American president as we can see can get legislation through I'm all forwriting this constitution now I think so I think they kind of we've been winging it for the last 300 years and it's been great up till now I think that does work with these type of actors in the sense of it doesn't it's not set up for people who just think I just want to be Prime Minister and then if I don't it's not set up for these types of it's a good faith system exactly it's where the likes of people like Johnson come in you realise how much of our public life is really dependent on a set of unwritten but understood rules where people we fundamentally fare and decent and we pass decent some towns are going out we're not going back to decent so yes I'm all for writing it down now we're knowing decent yeah that we're knowing bleak so yes I will start with some questions from our online audience and then if people in our in-person audience want to put out their hands we'll bring round a microphone but to start off with is a question from Andy for both of you he would like to know Armando what is your favourite or most memorable piece of Marina's writing and Marina what is your favourite well the thing that got me made me sit up and take notes of Marina was I think you were doing all the party conferences about it has my lot about four years ago and there were these double page and they were just hysterical from start to finish but also but you have the ability to be hysterical from start to finish and every line is an amazing one line that any other writer would be envious of but there is an argument which is great there is a kind of there is anger there there is a kind of you can sense the emotion behind it as well I never know it before before I started writing it where it's going but do you feel it when you're writing it it's a way of working through it's actually quite cathartic in some ways after the absolute horror show of the last few years it's been quite it's actually brighting about it has been strangely calming I don't have unresolved news issues which other people around me do have but like you know the day after breakfast I mean can you do you find yourself able to write oh my god yeah all night standing on college green with absolutely with westminster with night of farage she just conceded non conceded un conceded done it again at his victory party and then stood there saying Ac mae'n gael, arall y gallwn gyrdwyr yn sylwedd ar ôl a'r lleif, ac mae'n gyd. Yn hy himselfa'r sefydliad a'n gwrthoddiad yma, ac mae'n gynghwyl yn 5am, yn ei wneud, mae'n gwybodaeth. Mae'n gwelch nifer i'n gwneud. Mae'n gael i'n gweithio. Mae'r drannu yn Yr Hy゚n. Mae'n gael, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio i'r llungu. Mae'n gweithio i'r gweithio'n gweithio. Mae'r professors ddim yn ymlaen, a ddim yn ei ddim yn fysig. Mae'n gilydd i gael Ymlaen ond yma. Felly dyma'r ffordd yn heb iawn. Na. Felly, mae'n ddi'n meddwl. Mae'n dwi'n meddwl yn meddwl. Aym na? Mae'n meddwl yn meddwl, Alisman hwnnw ddim wedi'i capability dyma fel yw'rphone draf이고 ymweld wedi'i amser sy'n cyfweld. Yn ymlaen? Rwyf wedi ei amser. Mae'n rhaid i gyfroeddu fel borlygu fel cyfriwyd. Ond mae'n gwaith chi'n gyd, pan yw ein gwasbwyr yn gweithio i chi'n gweithio i chi, a phanol o gwasbwyr yn gweithio'n gynghwil. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio i chi. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio i chi, mae'n gweithio i chi, mae'n gweithio i chi. Ond oes gwnaeth gwybod, bod y cwmbrifoedd David Copperfield yn gweithio, erbyn eu hwnd i chi'n gwneud ei bwg, ac yn eu hwyl i chi'n gwneud ei gweithio i chi. ond wedi bod yn ymwelch. Mae hynny'n gwneud i chi gwybod. A dyna'n gwneud yn ymweld a'r adeiladau, rydyn ni wedi'i gwneud yn ddigardsoddiad yma yn 13-14, rydyn ni'n gwneud i chi'n gwneud i chi'n credu'r ymweld i chi ddweud i chi'n gwneud, ac roedd o'n dweud i chi'n gwneud eich gweithio'r ddwyll yn ymweld, ond ei ddweud i chi gweithio'r cyfwyllfa, ac roeddwn i'n gwneud i chi'n gwneud i chi'n cyfwyllfa, I ddweud am gyflaenol a'r cyfnodd, a'r ffordd yn ddod. Mae'r ddoron ni'n gwneud o ran y dyfodol yw'r ffordd mewn ddau'r bancau. A ddweud o'r bancau yn ei gydag, mae'n mynd i ffadu. Mae'rá ymddangos ar gyfer carotau. Felly, dyna yn ystafell. Ac yn ystafell, eto, mae'n meddwl am rancol, ond rydyn ni'n rhaid i'r Pwg Cymbr Ffarn. And I just think that is one of the... I was laughing out loud throughout the whole thing, which I'm really rarely doing. It was really annoying to my husband in bed. But I thought it was so unbelievably funny and so racy and so everything for the age that I couldn't believe a woman had written that in that era. I was stunned at how wickedly naughty it was and what an incredible... I think it's miles funnier than I remember. Sorry, it's just fresh in my mind, so I wanted to say that, re-bu in re-read. No, a cr ironically over there? Oop, there's a mic just behind you. It's a question for both of you, and then one specific one for you, Monday. How important is swearing in Saturn, a modern Saturn? And in the list of all the great things you've said, where does Thomas the Wankhengym spot? dweud. Rydyn. .. Dw i ymddangos, rydyn. Roedd 5 ymddangos. Roeddwn i'n cerdd peria unig. Roeddwn i gweld ei wneud ymddangos. Yn ymddangos ei wneud flynedd yn llwyddo ar 4 yma, Mae'r brifenni'r cyffredin aloneb yn bwysig yw bydd yma. Roeddwn i'n... Mae'n meddwl i'n mynd yn byw'r politicaidd. Roeddwn i'n i'n mynd yn bwysig. Rydyn yn dda'i amser mae. I hadn't realised he'd got a series of buttons that he presses that say something like, Bullshit, and whatever, just to call it. And he asked me to re-record them on the night I was on, so I came up with whatever. I turred the size of Disneyland Paris and Thomas the Wank engine, and I just recorded them that night thinking, but they've been using them for the last four series. And I'm just walking down the street and somebody goes, Thomas the Wank engine! And I think to people around me who don't know what that person's talking about, it's just been, I'm just being abused. So it just shows you the... You need a sandwich board disclaimer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just a one-off, it's not, it's not me. It's the, that is not who I am. And the prerequisite were the importance of swearing. Well, I think, you know, I mean, I mean, I'm not really a swearer as such, but I just think when we were doing the research for the thicker beads, it was very much a very natural, testosterone-filled environment, and it was all, fuck this, fuck that. And we did think we'll have to reflect that in, you know, because I wanted to show the freneticism and the kind of stress, the fact that they were genuinely making it up as they went along because they didn't have time to come up. But I just thought, saying the same word again and again, it's just going to get boring, so it's all about trying to... I need an artist, I need found... Well, Ian Martin, our swearing consultant, he's not, he's fantastic. He's so much more than a swearing consultant. But he's afraid of a swearing consultant. What we thought is, if we're going to swear, then it's the words around the swearing, you know, so it's, which are usually expressions of physical violence or whatever around the swearing. So it's not... And then it reached a sort of level of poetry where, you know, I think it was Tony Roach who came up with, come the fuck in or fuck the fuck off, which is, you know, then I was saying children's playgrounds, you know, it's... What's fuckity bye, one of yours? Fuckity bye, I think that was one of my, yes, I think that was in the look, fuckity bye, yeah. But, I mean, Billy Colley has this whole routine about how the word fuck can mean. So many things, you know. You know, like poetry. I mean, poetry is all about words that are doing three or four jobs at once, really. And English are great. Yeah, right back to Chaucer, we're in the Chaucer room here. This is where he wrote Canterbury Tales, this very room. But he's full of kind of swearing words and stuff like that. Yeah, people, yeah. Yet English literature kind of loves... Yeah, it has a surprising amount of it in it. I mean, Swift is, my God, it's just completely scatological. Yeah, that can get a bit much. Although sometimes when you're... God, I mean, there have been times over the last four or five years writing about, and I was rereading Swift sometimes and just thinking, I can see just the compulsion to just make it all just a tide of shit. Because he watched, like, four nights on the bounce of something called indicative votes and just sing like that. Actually, there was a guy who stood up in House of Commons called Steve Double, who stood up... Steve Double? Steve Double is his name. He said to me about that when he stood up in the House of Commons and he said, and he literally said in the House of Commons, he was just being, this is a turd of a deal, but it might just be the best turd that we've got. With two reason made, just looking round at him like that, it descended into actual, it became Swift in itself. So you can say that and not be asked to leave, but if you can't Boris Johnson a liar, you have to... So precise, isn't it? I can't stand that little rule. Right. Have we answered all your... Oh, no, go on. We'll do general knowledge as well if it comes to that. This is very, sorry, political rather than literature question, but I was just wondering what you guys think because I'm very much in, hopefully, your sort of more centrist realm of politics and coming from Canada, and I've lived here now for 15 years, and it's so terrifyingly right-wing dominant and obviously like every MP mentioned tonight. I'm just wondering, do you think there could be any realistic movement to actually galvanize enough of what I'm assuming most of the room is quite centrist into a better realm and a better future for this country and its politics? That's a big question. I think if you look at lots of the polling now, lots of the issues that, you know, actually things that, no matter how much they make a thing, immigration is really decreasing as an issue in terms of what people have said. Lots of things are cleaving back to some kind of centre. The way people talk about all sorts of things, what's been so deceptive and one of the worst things that I think ever happened was like pondit television where, you know, when they used to cast a reality TV house in the early 2000s, they brought conflict, and then the news became like this and they'd say, we'll have someone right from this far end of the spectrum, and then some's the other end, and then they can just have a fight and that will be content and it will be drama, and it actually created this illusion of a much more polarised country. It's actually, there's much more agreement on if you really kind of look into the polling on quite a lot of things, and it's just the way it's portrayed. That's right, and they're also, you know, I don't know what the parliamentary voting system is in Canada, but here, of course, we're the first past the post, and you get a conservative majority of 80 on the back of 43% of the electorate, probably less voting, whereas, you know, if you add the numbers of people who vote green, Labour, Lib Dem, whatever, it's just... I think there is a kind of more progressive majority there, but the voting system at the moment doesn't, you know, but I unfortunately think it's beyond the wit of all those parties to agree to just get through the next election but promising to change the electoral system once they get in. I don't ever going to do that, really. Yeah, it's just not set up for the people, it's not set up to play out, I don't think. I think what is interesting... Haven't hit our rock bottom yet. There's a number of people who are now committed to single-issue politics, community politics, which is great, but it mustn't then make us think, and therefore we mustn't participate in national politics, because if you don't vote, then actually, as I say, where there's a vacuum, you know, that's where trouble starts. I wonder if you could give me a two-minute guide about how to write to my dreadful MP. That's a great question. It's a fantastic question. My mother always refers to their MP, they seem to be quite frequent to as our idiot, but I don't think he's addressed as dear our idiot. Do you want your dreadful MP to actually do something about something locally, or do you just want to let him or her know... ..about a national mission. ..that they're a dreadful MP? Cos maybe if you want something to happen, the words you mustn't start with are dear dreadful MPs, cos they probably won't read much further than that. They do really care. Can I just say they do massively care about their inboxes? It's surprising, and people just don't realise. It's actually quite touching, and quite, I don't know, I find it quite moving that there is still that way. They do really care what they receive. Often what people make on the stage is they cut and paste something that lots of people do around Robin, and then they can see that, but if you take the time, people think, gosh, someone has actually taken... But it doesn't make a difference, as well, when they go back to their constituents at the weekend, and if their inboxes are full of, for example, Dominic Cummings, what was all that about driving up to Bradford to test his eyes? This is all terrible. That was the message they then brought back the next week to Westminster that actually... They read it all, and they really do read it all. I do know that from many, many MPs. It's not the same to someone who writes your MP. It's not a waste of time. It's not the taller waste of time. The more letters they receive on a subject, the more they realise that actually their constituencies, how important it is to their constituencies... They are incapable, in many cases, of independent moral thoughts, so bear in mind that you are functioning as his kind of Gemini cricket, or her, might be a lady. Really? That was roughly two minutes, so... I might just ask another question from our online audience. While we're on the topic of writing tips, do you have any writing tips for someone starting out in satirical comedy and how would you advise starting on the research process? Well, the thing that I always say to people if they want to write comedy is write. Don't wait for the phone call or whatever. When I started, I started as a radio producer on week-ending. I don't know if anyone remembers week-ending. I was one of the last ones to kill it off. But there, in those days, you typed a script and you posted it in the hope that a producer would read it. Or, on the Thursday, there was a meeting called the Non-Commissioned Writers' Meeting where anyone could come in and pitch ideas. But it was in London, so you had to be able to come to London and you had to be free on that day. Therefore, you were mostly unemployed people coming in for cups of tea and a few gags. Now isn't it great how you can see all these people on social media and these people doing these little clips? But no, you don't have to wait for that moment. You could do it anywhere and you could just start because the more you write, the better you'll get. You'll write something, you'll think it's terrible, but then ask yourself, why is it terrible? What's terrible? I'm going to write something else now and try not to do that. I learned from doing this that that should be... I'll try that in the next one. The more you write, the better. I'll always write what makes you laugh, not what you think will make the head of comedy a channel for laugh. Because they'll be gone in six months' time. There'll be someone new, you know, or what the head of the BBC comedy. Because then you're not writing your best stuff because you're not writing with passion and you're writing with calculation and that's never going to be as funny. I always say to people to write short things. There's so much long form whatever at the moment and sometimes it's not long form. It's just long and it's too long. Writing a little bit, even if it's 100 words every day, that will get your muscle going and learning to write tightly is so much more important than writing it long. You can write and record stuff. You don't have to write, you can perform it. You can do like Rosie Holt, doing these little one-minute tour. That's great. So all the tools are there. You don't have to wait to be asked. That of course means that there are more people doing it and therefore you've got a lot to be measured against. But I'm always a believer that the good will rise. The good stuff. Ian Martin are more than a swearing consultant. Somebody sent me a link to a website he did. He's based up in Lancaster and he and his brother did this funny website and it was like a spoof of parliamentary reports and it just made me laugh. I had no idea who he was or what he was and I just got in touch with him and said, you're funny, do you want to write? We were doing the first episode of Think of It and I said to Ian, here's the script, just add any bits and pieces. The script would come back and he'd add his bits in red. We were always on set just looking for the red bits that Ian had sent in that morning. The very opening scene, I think Malcolm's on the phone and the script says he's useless, he's absolutely useless to which Ian added, he's as useless as a marzipan dildo. He told me that when he wrote that he was so nervous, the script to come and he just thought, this is so good, I can't add anything, I'll just put marzipan dildo. The thing everyone remembers. He was really nervous and felt like he was disfoiling someone's brilliant writing but in fact it was absolutely to think that to not be worried that you're sort of stepping on someone's toes I think that's important, I think you just got to go for it. Perhaps then relatedly, so that was a question from James and then Andy would like us to know he's listening to this event while editing PowerPoint slides for his employer which is an activity which always completely eats into his time for writing. What do the two of you tell yourselves about the importance of putting pen to paper and how do you defend that vital writing time? Oh heavens, that is a tough one. I mean, we were talking about how you can do your column in like two hours. Yes, but I get up really up but also it really helps having a deadline that someone's going to go, where is it if it hasn't, deadlines are good. Even self-imposed deadlines, even if you can create artificial deadlines I think that's better otherwise you just keep putting it off and treat it like a diary. That's what makes things happen generally. I've got an unfinished novel that I started about 12 years ago because it's very difficult to give yourself a novel deadline. It has to be done by next week. Kind of write a novel anyway. The best thing for me has been deadlines and having loads of them. I used to even do a diary column where I used to write every day and even though you're writing short bits it doesn't matter, it's the every day of it that's making yourself do a little bit but also just create a fake deadline just that I'm going to have to do. Is that also just losing that fear of the blank page or the blank word document or whatever just that, just put something down it might be terrible but at least you've started. I always say to people that writing journalism think of it as a trade, not an art or anything should be even comedy should be if you're lucky it becomes a work of art but actually... The first thing I will say for the first draft is do it quickly because we're going to change it so don't sweat over every line and every phrase but at least once you've done a first draft it starts becoming real, becomes the episode or the script and okay I really like this bit, let's do more of this not sure the first series we need to... It's fine not to know what you want you don't know what you want and you get closer in time So it's about losing that fear of the blank page even if it's just nonsense to start and then overwrite it just arbitrary words just to get something done to feel you've started So we've got five minutes for general knowledge now The other thing, oh yes and I was going to say I think I'm going to be outside signing these What's with that? When you talked earlier about the potential death of democracy perhaps you were referring to the photo ID requirement that's coming up I'm wondering how in both your respective lines of work you can perhaps bring this to a wider audience I mean I've tweeted about it I've written quite a lot We've done quite a lot of this in the Guardian and it's quite hard to explain that it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist because I think there was like one instance of photo board in the last session It's costing a fortune as well It's costing a fortune and there's no good concomitant but they had all that stuff on that page in that NSFS I can't even remember what the page was it was like they put all this horrible stuff on one page There's a very sinister paragraph in the 2019 2019 election where it just said we will also be taking a look at parliament, the judiciary system the electoral system the broadcasting system and how it can be improved and changed That was it I remember reposting that again again all the way up to the election because I was going what is this? It's the only thing they've actually done It's the only thing they've actually done It's the end So we try and focus on it as much as we have with each new piece we try and I'm also thinking about how in your work you could potentially encourage the likely disenfranchised to do something about it People often don't know they're disenfranchised in the case of voters I think the sad thing is people won't be aware of it until until it's too late where they turn up and I told you can't vote, you haven't shown us any because it hasn't been that widely reported yet it's been reported in various news people but I'm amazed there isn't coverage of it on the BBC news or on Newsnet or on Channel 4 It's seen as one of these weird fringe policy manoeuvres but it will have such a profound impact on the next election and I don't know why the opposition parties aren't getting energised about it as well because it's going to stop a lot of their core support from voting so I don't understand is the answer I don't understand why opposition parties find certain area maybe the fright that is too obscure or too forever but surely among them somewhere there must be someone who can outline in a kind of graphic and easy to understand way the impact it'll have so sadly we can bang on about it all the time but the audience we bang on about it too are not the ones who are going to be affected already agree well there we are we've all set the line thank you so much for being so generous Amanda Marina tonight for free tickets to events and to tonight's event sorry not tonight's event that's over I don't think you can get it back again ever again that's it three tickets to other events maybe we can't surpass this event tonight but anyway we can give it a shot so if you want to come to other events at the RSL you come a member or acquire a digital events pass our membership and passes are open to anyone and start just a measly £25 that's all £25 for a whole year per annum also there couldn't be a better time to join the RSL and be the first to hear our forthcoming events particularly Dalloway Day our annual celebration of all things Virginia Woolf it's on Wednesday in mid June as it says in the novel so tomorrow we'll be announcing the stellar line up for this year's Dalloway Day we'll be able to attend everything from wherever you are in the universe so to be sure to sign up online or at our membership desk which is waiting for you outside where Amanda will be to sign his book Pandemonium which is freshly there waiting outside in its stacks and if you're watching us online you can buy a copy too by pressing the bookshop button is that right Lily? there's a bookshop button you can press and buy from a good reliable bookseller so we also like to thank our volunteers thank you volunteers and all our friends at the British Library particularly John Fawcett B Rowlett and Brett Walsh and John Stedridge and Rebecca Godley at Unique Media for making it possible for so many of us to come together tonight and my final thank you before I ask another round of applause is a two Lily Blacksell who's just sat on the front row with the microphone, the lady with the microphone the young kid with the microphone who is our RSL's events and partnership manager and this is her first in-person event for us well done Lily hasn't she done well we'll total that in person as well you've done really well Lily I feel proud as a father watching their child at your first step thank you Lily, dear child and finally thank you all for joining us and please join me finally another huge round of applause an incredible duo Amanda