 All righty, and we are live right here on a hashtag, a power talk show right here. My good name is Brian Sakwan, I'm so happy. I feel ecstatic and excited to be right here. I'm sitting in today for Sherry Blessing. Definitely she'll be here next time. And definitely can always as well interact with us on our socials. And let us know what you're watching us from. We'll be glad to sample your feedback because this is an incredible show. We're about to get you into an interesting conversation right here that will get you informed and at the same time, leave you thinking. What are some of the things that I should do and not do? Do you know what you're going to talk about? We're going to talk about a journey of self, literally self-forgiveness and healing. And I understand most of us have been through so many things in our lives and especially millennials, the trauma. You know, I was speaking to a friend of mine yesterday, I'll call her Samar. She keeps on attracting people who are just like her dad. And I'm like, what do you mean? So, you know, your story, you want to date someone who literally doesn't remind you of things that you went through as a child. And I was like, probably that could be trauma-bonding. I'm not a professional psychologist or a therapist or a counselor, but from far, if I squinted a little bit, I could tell that is trauma-bonding. But today we are focusing on matters as healing and forgiveness. Are there things that still hurt you? Are you holding on to that heavy grudge and you're like, I will never forgive you. But there, forgiveness is for you, not even for your fender, aggressor or a salient. It's literally for you. And that's what you're going to delve into right here. So I'm inviting you back at home to let us know what you're watching us from. And by the way, you can also find us on our YouTube shortly. We'll be streaming. And if not, definitely you'll still get this episode right on the hashtag power talk show, right? And to introduce my powerful ladies who are in studio with me, I've got Tuebos Inouye. She is a registered psychologist alongside Lois Warungi. She's a counseling psychologist as well. I feel like the both of you should have, you know, you could have known each other off the air, but it's amazing how you guys have met here. And I was asking, do you guys know each other? And Kidoga, you resemble, but you guys come, but don't know each other. But look at the power of TV, reuniting. So, Karibuni Sana, maybe I'd like to start off with you, Lois. Maybe how did you become a professional counseling psychologist? And maybe what are some of the things that you've done in between that have led you to be on this show right here? Of helping people out on things they go through, even as much as I didn't have so much knowledge about them. And I recall it took me a journey, even talking to my parents, to my sisters, and I could actually ask them questions about life. Most of the questions that I was curious about. And from there I was like, why not try counseling? But then I didn't know the process and all that. Then I came about social media on my TikTok page. That's when I started talking about it, like mental awareness, what you need to do when you're in situations that no one else can help you. But then I just came to realize the best thing you can do is get vulnerable with someone you don't know, because it's easier for them to help you out rather than someone you know. Yeah, because of guilt, literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guilt, because I agree with that part, because there's a time I also had a conversation with a friend I was like, I'm really comfortable to share my worst things with somebody I've met for the first time. Now, to get to run to a potter, other than a person I know, because internally you'll feel a little bit judged. You'll be like, eh, I don't know, there's always that part. I don't know, I'll show you a story. And I feel like it's guilt, right? Could be guilt or shame or fear. Mostly fear and what you're going to do with that information after you have it. But the woman didn't know, I don't know you. I cannot get to you, so. Right. I'm okay. But you know, it can be really tricky, though. Lastly, before I get to you, Tuba, so did you like go to a school for it? Did you get to, you know, and do you have a license as well? And also when, officially, did you start practicing it? I started this year, actually. Mm-hmm. It's been a journey because I've been in different hospitals and referrals. Right. To people who are dealing with different issues, mostly home-based, because with the current generation, you're dealing with people who are dealing with so much drugs. Right. Young people are dealing with masturbation and all that, and I was like, ah, if I did this course, the first time I did it online, it wasn't easy for me because I felt maybe I needed a physical class. But then I came to realize with my work, it wouldn't work out perfectly well, and that's when I did my course. And I did the exams, I qualified, and I'm just waiting for just small, small things. Right. But so for your meeting clients and your interacting with people? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I meet clients. Right. Yeah, based on, it depends what they want me to cancel them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, interesting. Good one. What about you, Tuaba? Is it okay to call you Tuaba? Yes, yes. Right. Right. You know, there's people who are like, call me Beyonce, I'm Jay-Z, please shut up, I'm Kim Kardashian. But you know, yeah, it's good that... I'll put my name. Right. My journey was a lot like her. I think for a lot of psychologists, that's where we start. It's like I want to help people, and sometimes it also comes from a place of like, I wanted certain help at a certain point in my life. So now that I've grown up, I've interacted with psychology material, I've talked to people, can I be that for someone else? So mine was a bit like that. My interest started in like high school. I had wanted to do anthropology, but everybody was like, oh, anthropology, I live in Kenya. So I was like, okay, fine, guys, I'm fine. So I just started getting to psychology books, and then in uni now I decided to pursue it properly. So yeah, I completed my undergrad, and then I started working. I started out in private practice. Right. That's essentially where just a counselor does their own thing. They're not employed. And now, thank God, I've gotten a job now with a clinic. So that's where I do like the majority of my work, but I also still do the private practice. Right. So yeah. How many years now, and when officially did you start? I started, okay, officially working, it was May 2022. So almost two years now. Almost two years now. But you're registered. Yes, I am. It means you have a certificate and certified. Yes, I do. Nice. I would have brought it if you wanted. You get very much money. No worries again, no worries again. Now, let's get to the topic at hand. Just a bit, by the way, I'll be sharing with you the question of the day. So in this day and age where, you know, in the adage of social media, a lot of people are going through a lot. If you guys can recall, story of Brandsheer and whatnot, and so many other things that continue to happen, you know, they are saying it's Gen Z's. I just are saying it's Elon Musk's tweet and in any freedom of speech, but all these avenues literally are there to help people express themselves. So remember there's a time, is it China or the, no, it's the US that wanted to ban TikTok. I think they still have that motion still in court. But then I love the fact that those, those someone who went and said, I use TikTok as a form of therapy to vent, because they usually sit in front of the camera and they say all the things that have hurt them, literally. And now speaking of heart, most of us have been through at least something, at least a season in your life where like, I met you and you did this to me and if I'll forgive you, maybe Jesus are really too. But all these things, other people do not know that forgiveness is not for the person who hurt you. And I remember Zit Nelson Mandela who said, it's like drinking sulfur or acid and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, and it's literally for you. So when it comes to forgiveness, how does a person begin that journey of self forgiveness? Cause I believe, for me, I believe I forgive myself. And then I, sometimes you're angry at God and then you can forgive God and then slowly God can help you now to forgive your aggressor. So maybe for you Tuba, how can a person start self forgiveness that can lead to healing possibly? I think just like you said, self forgiveness is such a complicated thing. So forgiveness of others is easy. You can practice it and get really good at it. But I think because we know ourselves and we can see our intentions, our actions, our thoughts, our feelings, we tend to judge ourselves a bit harsher. So you might feel like forgiveness is hard. Why should I give forgiveness to someone who I can see their whole process? What they were intending, what they did, how they were feeling, how they planned to do this to someone. And that's when we are looking at ourselves. But I think even in my own journey of self forgiveness, I've come to see that these, forgiveness is not like, I don't decide when, like you see the way we try to say it to you, all this person deserves forgiveness, this one doesn't. Sometimes you can do that, but why should we disqualify ourselves from forgiveness? Just because we can see our whole processes. Even sometimes when we intend, like we sit down and say, Why should we not forgive ourselves? You know, at that point in time when you are planning to do that thing, what was probably leading you is the pain, the fear. There's also that thing of like, I want justice to be served. So I want, since justice is not being served, I want to go and do it on my own. But when you come back to it, you only did what you knew at that point in time. If you had known better, you would have done better. And like, I know that's like a cliche thing for us to say, but for me, I truly believe it. If I'd known better, I would have done better. Since I didn't know better, I need to reach a point where I can forgive that version of myself. Because me now, hindsight is 20-20. I can see all the things I was doing wrong. At that point in time, I couldn't. So for me, I feel like it's important to at least consider forgiving yourself. Just because at that point in time, you didn't have as much knowledge as you have now. Just based off of that. Good one. For you, Louise, you know, I know she's mentioned pain. You know, sometimes pain, I believe you can be so wounded or extremely wounded and you're blinded by the pain to a point there's even no thought crossing your mind of a possibility that someday it will get better. Someday this season will be done and you'll be happy again. So for people that are caught up in that miasma and the minutious meaning the nitty gritties of this one happened, this one happened, I can't let go, like you are swimming in toxicity. But maybe the key to unlocking healing is forgiveness. So if you were to advise someone, how should they start that journey as well? I could first consider what they do. It's an every time they have disagreements with people and how they react to that. Because I know people who journal that down and they get over it. There are people who will be there, they'll be crying for two to three days and maybe they're going to overcome not basically the whole thing, but they're going to be in a better state of communicating to other people what they feel at the moment. But I feel anytime you escalate that and you appear the bad person in this picture, it's going to drain you to spaces you cannot walk out of. But when you think about yourself, I'm like, this is me, I feel bad about it. And the other person could not even be in the picture totally, you're there, you're feeling hurt, you're feeling broken and they have walked away. So the first thing is I need to get right with myself first, anything else is going to get along. Because let me give a scenario of having a disagreement with someone, you didn't resolve it, then that person pass on. Like they die. What are you going to do at that point? You cannot communicate because basically we think the only way you can get over something is just that time when you want to talk about it. But it doesn't happen all the time. Some people are very unapproachable even in such situations. But the only thing you can do is make peace with yourself. Then everything else is going to work out perfectly well. But if you still hold some grudges within yourself, you cannot move on. You're going to hold on to so much pain. You go back to asking people, what do you think I should do? And it's going to escalate because people are going to give you different views on how they think about it, yet with the person who is feeling the pain within yourself. I read an article somewhere, think should have been on The Guardian, but talked about this lady who she was sexually assaulted. She's black American. She was sexually assaulted, I think, by the stepdad. And that's how she literally switched sexualities. I don't know if it's, maybe it's not respectful to say switching, but that's how she decided to be a person of the other sexuality because she always, like each and every time she meets a man who wants to date her. She's in the article they're saying she sees the stepdad. She sees the stepdad. So I can only imagine such a person setting the journey of forgiveness and healing to such a person, how can it happen so that they become peaceful? Like literally she, I think at this stage she has a problem with men, right? You can literally tell she doesn't want men because of that sexual violation that happened as a child. So is it possible for such a scenario to, for her to be at peace with, it happened and let me start, maybe I should restart myself again and start dating men because it's not all men who offended her anyways but that's a serious case, serious case. You think it's possible because the first thing you have to do is to listen to her story and what she feels about it because from each she's going to talk about so many things that she cannot tell anyone else. Maybe the process, how it happened, how she felt at the moment. But the moment she talks to me about it we start from somewhere. So what did you feel? How did that make you feel? Maybe in between someone is going to talk about I feel like my image was cracked at some point. I feel like I cannot approach them. I feel like I cannot even have conversations but I have to remind them to be positive at all costs because she's holding so much negativity within herself but time is not waiting for her to make decisions as to the things that she wants, understand? So you have to be there, remind her. Time is moving. Right. She needs to talk about it more often as much as she can if she can be able to write it down it's going to be even easier for her because I could not be with her all the time but she needs to get over it. Another aspect that I would bring about is remind her that all men are not like the man who did the same thing to her. There are kind men out here but if she's going to work with the same analogy like men do this because that man did that. I mean you'll see any other man and you're like no. And there are still good men out here. You just need to position yourself in a state where you can be able to accommodate a good man and be open minded that even as much as they get into your life they're not going to bring negativity. Right. Because I'm thinking about this in a state where you were dating someone, that person hurt you and you're still holding them back and they're not even aware about it, they moved on, what are you going to do? Most of the time people heal in relationships with other people. The only thing you need to do is don't just swim in that relationship without the knowledge of where you're going. Don't, I think the best thing is separating emotions and reality at all times just in case you want to heal. Right. That's really a complex one to ever because she's mentioned relationship. It means you're carrying over the heart from the past to the present relationship. And sometimes that can deter even from meeting a good person. But when you look at it, this person has a right to be pissed. They have a right to be angry. They have a right to be resentful. They have a right to feel bitter. So how can we convince them that better days are coming? Because I came to understand about trauma as well that also is surrounding stories, heartbreaks, stories of disappointments. You are disappointed by your dad so you will never forgive anyone who called a dad. And that literally is heart and pain. So for such a person, where do you even start working this journey and convincing them, you know what? Better days are coming and you better be happy now because that will also start building up the next phase of your life to be happy. Because like you said, if you keep on holding on to pain, it's blocking you from meeting good things and even good energy. And you're carrying those, you know, traces of heart and attracting still bad people, yeah. Well, I actually agree a lot with what she said, especially on the emotions, separating emotions and reality. Right. And this is, I also work with a lot of people who have gone through trauma and are seeking professional help. Right. And the things that I try to work on with them is actually emotions and reality. Please, please paint a picture for us. Okay, let's paint the picture. Yeah. Let me use an example of like the relationship like you said. Right. So in the past relationship, you had this ex who was, let's say, maybe even abusive. Right. Or like, let's say, mildly abusive. They would make some certain comments, do some certain things that are just a bit hurtful but you overlooked them. In truth, he was a mild narcissist. Likely, but yeah, you know, like just mild behaviors, maybe not outright abusive, but just mild ones. At some time, let's say, you know, you know, break up. So after that, now you have to be so aware of the emotions that you're carrying from that. Right. Not only the pain on the heart, but the disappointment, the resentment. Because the more aware you are of those feelings, the better it is, the easier it will be not to project that onto the next person. Because it's true by the, even when it comes to men, I know there's always this talk about, oh, men are trash, men are what? But it's again, a generalization. Right. There are some men, there are some women who are working so hard not to pass on the heart that they got from wherever went to you. So just like Riza said, you know, you have to reach a point where you're aware of what happened to you, accept what happened. Right. Accepting doesn't mean approving. We can never justify, if someone hurt you, if someone was mean to you, we are not justifying. Absolutely. But accepting that it happened. Right. Okay, this happened to me, it's the effect that it had. Can I be aware of it as I continue to move through life? Can I be aware of it as I meet new people, as I continue to date? So that when you meet someone, who is actually respectful, who is actually kind, you can see them for who they are and not through the colored glasses or your past experiences. Yeah, that filter. Yeah, that filter. That filter, by the way, let me tell you, Akinakujanga too automatically when you've gone through a bad experience. But can you be aware of that filter? Right. So that you know that, okay, this guy, this lady is actually kind to me. They are actually a safe space. They are actually a good person. They are healthy. Can I see them for who they are and not whom my emotions from the past are trying to make them look like? That's why I really agree with that statement. Separating emotions from reality. We are not denying the emotions, we are not denying the reality. We're just saying that emotions can sometimes not fully encompass what reality is. So I think that would be a good place to start. Then from there, you now build on that. Because that now allows for a lot more emotional flexibility, psychological flexibility for you to see the facts on the ground, not carrying over what happened in the past into the present. You reminded me there's, I think there's a certain preacher or a motivation speaker who is talking about emotional bank account. He was painting a picture of like there's people who have been exhausted. They've been through things that have exhausted happiness in them. There's no joy in them. There's no peace. And it's just anger. So for a person who has zero emotional bank account, how do you also build this grit in them for them to start feeling strong? Because I also heard somebody say, if you're not a person that forgives very often, it means you're weak. That's what the person said. So I don't think, I don't know if strong people forgive very fast and weak people. And I also don't understand the definition of weak people. Maybe you can help noise. Is it true a strong person forgives very fast and maybe a person who has not yet built, let's say who has not yet built the capacity and the gravitas to forgive, tries to hold on a little bit hard before they let it go. I think whatever people do, they create a defense mechanism for that. The strong people. Or strong people. Yeah, strong people. I mean, a lot has really happened in their life. And even when something big tags along, it's no longer big because they know how to deal with it. As much as they don't have the answer at the moment, they're like, is it costing my peace? Is it worth it? Is it costing my time? I don't need it. As much as it seems big to other people to them, it's like, man, these are all cover for me. It's a molehill. Yeah, they're like, I mean, I don't want to live with it. I don't have to take more time thinking about it because it doesn't help me. But for a weak person, they have to be there thinking about it. How did people feel? I mean, they have so many questions. And, mind you, they don't have anyone who is going to answer those questions because there was no one who was there at the scene. So you'll be there, you'll cry, you'll get yourself into spaces, no one will walk you out of. So at times I feel, if you're a weak person, just get strategies of how to overcome whatever you feel. And be the first person to accept yourself as much as you're feeling the bitterness within yourself because, I mean, no one can understand you better than you understand yourself. If today I knew, if someone... This is coming from a therapist, by the way. A psychologist, nobody can understand you better than you understand yourself. If you think a psychologist will understand your situation, you are wrong, cha, you are wrong. So true, I agree with that. Nobody can understand you better than yourself. And what I mostly tell weak people, they're so-called weak people because I don't know what weak is, I just don't understand where weak is because you're the person who has accepted to be in that situation. One thing I tell them is be vulnerable to people, not to 10 people, just one person, because that one person is going to help you think in a different way rather than you think and see things. Because if you're there and you're living with people who are comfortable in their weakness, like that person hurt you or we are okay. So let's cry for two days and we're going to be okay. I mean, not moving, you just need someone else who's going to confront the situation and tell you, man, that relationship is over, you have to walk over it. Wake up and open another door. Yeah, I mean, because what's the worst that can happen if you're there thinking about it and you'll just get to realize with time and the current generation that we have at the moment, not like us, where the people who used to be broken, you there crying for a man, you've not healed, you're losing weight. Right now if a man lives, you're living with him, like your life is moving because you're delaying so many things from happening in your life, you're going to lose a job because you didn't attend for like two to three days. Because you were depressed, oh my gosh, he left. I know who's going to feed you by the end of the day. No one is going to help you out. I think that's a pity party. But do you realize also people that feed on pity parties, sometimes it helps them, I think so. I don't know, what do you think? How though? Because maybe they're looking for a sense of validation and the more people will tell them, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry this happened, come here, let me hug you. I think it's giving them some sort of hope to continue going on, don't you think so? I think there's a line that needs to be drawn, yeah, where yes we can validate you, we can comfort you, we can say yes, it was a painful experience, but I like that approach of like yes, deal with the pain, let it out of your system. After that, remember you have a life to live, your life is not over. As long as you're still living and you're breathing and you're going about your day, your life is continuing. And actually you know that's a funny thing, we don't think of how important it is to move on, but it's actually a key part of the healing process. Because when you move on, now you go and meet new people, you go and have new experiences. The other day I was talking to someone who, they've been going through a really tough time, then just the other day, they went out for a walk and they saw the sunlight filter into the trees and they realized life is worth living again and I'm like, look at that, imagine. So you see it's such a- Yes, connecting with nature. Yeah, it's such a huge part of it. Like I like to tell my clients, think of the concept of looking up. Imagine that you're walking through, we're just walking through town, every single day you're always walking, looking down. All you see is the ground. All your orientation is down like this. The day you look up, you notice, hey, now you want to remember, hey, now you want to remember, hey, this architecture is nice, hey, nature is beautiful, imagine. So you see, after that period of grieving, of crying, of validation comfort, remember to look up. Because life is continuing and there are so many beautiful experiences, beautiful people, beautiful things that are still waiting to be experienced by you. And as in, they are waiting for you by the way. They are just waiting, they are like, nani ako api by the way? We are waiting for you to come and experience us and for you to remember that your life is bigger than this one thing that hurt you. Absolutely. Because that's what's something that happens with trauma by the way because of how intense traumatic experiences and how we, you know, even the brain starts to focus on only survival. That's why we struggle to enjoy things when we are really living in survival mode. Although we get to some certain conditions and it reminds you exactly of you at then. You see that. So you're like, nope, I don't wanna hear you, go out, I'll see you later. Now, on that see you later, not whether or not we come back, we'll actually be sharing with you a question of the day in just a bit, but continue to interact with us on the hashtag part of the TV show. We'll definitely be glad to hear your feedback as well. We are taking a short commercial break, but remember, you're still hanging out with the turbos and oi, she's a registered psychologist and Lois Waring, a counseling psychologist as well. So keep on sending your questions very fast. I'm gonna be sampling them, but now let's take a break. We'll come back with much more. Stay right here.