 Welcome to Conversations with LSN TAP, where we meet interesting people and hear how they are increasing access to justice through technology. Here's your host, Shelly Reid. Hi, thank you for joining us today. My name is Shelly Reid. We're here for the Conversations with LSN TAP podcast. And today we have Carrie Holmes, who is the Executive Director of the Center for Access to Quadros or Qualified Domestic Relation Orders. So welcome, Carrie. Thanks so much for having me, Shelly. I'm happy to be here. Super. Well, tell me a little bit about yourself outside of work. Yeah. So outside of work, I bake a lot of bread. I made some cheese bread yesterday. That makes the house smell great. I play a little bit of piano, not particularly well. And then for some kind of athletic activity or semi-athletic activities. I live on a Dragon Boat team here in San Diego, where I live for women in the LGBTQ community. And we are middling to fair. Well, that sounds like a lot of fun. I think I might rather do some of that than work. So how did you get where you are today? You know, what does your career path look like? It reminds you to the center. Yeah. So my career has been spent almost entirely in kind of the world of family law. And in the last few years, specifically in the world of legal services and family law. I went to UCLA for my undergrad and for law school. Once they let me in, they couldn't get rid of me. So I stuck around. And then I went to work at a boutique family law firm in Beverly Hills in private practice, which was definitely an experience. Those kinds of cases. I learned so much. And I worked for a wonderful attorney named Annie Wishengrad. And then I went into legal services. I worked at the Harriet Bue High Center for Family Law in Los Angeles, which is an IOLTA program here in California, where I was a staff attorney, and eventually became the pro bono director. And then I moved on to San Diego Volunteer Lawyer Program, where I was the pro bono manager and supervising attorney. And now I'm the executive director, the Center for Access to Quadros. And I love this job. This work is super interesting, really cool, brand new. I know we're going to talk about it some more, but it's a wonderful role. It's really interesting. Interesting background. I love family law. So at one point, that's where I thought I was going to end up in my career before it took a huge right turn. So interesting that that's where you started. So I realize you're a double Bruin, but are you a California native? And yeah, I grew up in the inland empire of California, which is sort of the desert region between Los Angeles and San Diego. Yeah, so I lived in California pretty much my whole life, but I love traveling all over the United States. So now we're going to kind of turn to the Quadros Center. So can you share who started the company and what, what was their purpose? Yeah. So the Center for Access to Quadros was started by the president of our board of directors whose name is Louise Nixon. And she is a quadro specialist attorney. So she used to be a plan attorney for operating engineers. And then she went out on her own into private practice and has been a quadro attorney for over 30 years. So she started volunteering at the Buhay Center where I worked and joined the board of the Buhay Center and started doing quadros for them for free for their clients and realize that this is a really big need that so far no one has really been systematically addressing. There's no program out there that is focused on providing these services specifically for low income family law litigants. So she wanted to make these services available to everyone who needs them and really help enforce the laws that already exist to protect people's interest in retirement benefits and ensure that they can access quadro services as they need them. So it sounds like the Center is a non-profit, is that correct? Yeah, yeah, we're a non-profit. So Louise, when she sort of started realizing she wanted to help make quadros more available to more people, she actually started a technology company to help automate the drafting of these orders. She was sort of downloading her brain and everything she knows after 30 years into a software platform. And so at the Center we're lucky we have an exclusive license to utilize that software. So I'm preparing quadros with the speed that I could never have imagined as the family law attorney because she helped develop this software platform and then has donated it to our nonprofit to make it available to legal services. Organizations and low income litigants. That's really interesting. So what excited you personally about joining the Center? Yeah, I think when I was at the Buhay Center, I realized how powerful this technology is to make the quadro process available to everyone. And we're going to get into it a little in a few minutes about sort of how that all works and what that means exactly. But for me as a family law attorney, I can really see the need. I had a lot of litigants that I worked with who, you know, had a judgment that awarded them these benefits but they could not access them without a quadro. This money that already belongs to them, it's theirs, it's been awarded to them, but they can't get it without this special order. And from what Louise has described, there's only about 40 law firms in the country that even do this for money. That's how specialized it is. So it's really challenging for a lot of our client communities to come up with the funds to have these prepared for them. And people are really losing out on benefits that already belong to them. I was just excited because I could see the need and I can see how this program in particular can fill the need. And I was so excited to join when Louise called me. That's awesome. So what are some of the challenges the company has faced along the way. Yeah, so I think we're really changing how retirement division and how quadros are done in the United States. We're really disrupting this current system where one of our currently partners described it as referring clients to nowhere right somebody comes and they have a retirement benefit there's nowhere to send them. It's a huge problem but it does take time for kind of acceptance of a new solution. And, but we've been working with so many wonderful legal aid partners, and it's growing really fast. So we are thrilled to sort of keep that momentum going. So, can you clarify for the audience, what the center's mission is. So our mission is to close this part of the justice gap by providing access to high quality quadro products to nonprofit legal service organizations, self help centers, as well as qualified individuals in financial distress. So, we've been throwing around this term quadro, multiple times now. So I want to just go into a little more detail for those who might not be familiar. What is a quadro. So quadro stands for qualified domestic relations order. And really what it does is it effectuates whatever division is in a party's divorce judgment or divorce decree of kind of any kind of deferred asset. So pension plans are very common 401ks those kinds of retirement plans, federal military retirement plans. And not all of we sort of use the word quadro to describe all of those things there's some little nuances that I think are two in the weeds to get into. But broadly we describe all of those things as a quadro. And basically, in order for a retirement plan to pay funds to someone who is not the plan participant, not the person sort of named on the 401k or who's a member of the union that offers the pension plan. In order for plans to pay that money out to someone else, they have to have this very special order called a quadro. That's consistent with federal law if applicable and also consistent with the plan's requirements. So, a lot of litigants think they have a judgment that says, you know, you're awarded 50% of the marital interest in this pension, and they think they're done and they reach retirement age, contact the plan and the plan says, Oh, we actually can't pay you any of this money that you have an order that says it belongs to you and you can't pay it to you unless you have a quadro. So it's this really huge significant barrier for people to access funds that they can use, especially in those older years, you know, we think a lot about older poverty, older Americans living in poverty, especially older women the rates of older women living in poverty are really substantial. And so this is such a concrete way to help resolve that and help get these litigants sometimes a stream of money that can last for their lifetime if it's a pension plan. So that's what a quadro is and what it does and why it's important. So, you went into it a little bit, but what are there any other things or is there something that's like truly wrong with the system that you believe that should be changed. Yeah, that's a great question. I think that what's wrong with the way things are done today is that we have these laws on the books that protect people's interest in retirement plans that, you know, require a quadro and that's, you know, sort of from a protective place. But those laws on the books are not being used because quadros are expensive. They are can be overwhelming for litigants, and they're just not accessible. So for us, our mission is really to say, hey, we have these laws that are protecting people's interest in these plans, but they're not being enforced because this is seen as such a specialized rarefied area. We really want to make it accessible to everyone, because functionally right now what we have right is a two tier justice system in lots of ways, but in this area in particular, where if you have the funds to hire a quadro attorney you can access your retirement benefits. But if you don't have the funds to hire a quadro attorney or you're trying to figure it out on your own and you're struggling. There's not support so we really want to resolve that and be that support and provide those services. So, in that are, do you see that judges will create the quadros without being prompted or is it something that the, you know, the participants must be more proactive in. Yeah, the parties really have to be proactive about this. We have not seen a lot of judges preparing these on their own, these specialized orders, they tell the parties okay this plan is going to be divided you have to get a quadro. You have to get a quadro in 30 days, and it's people it just it just doesn't happen. I think because this is seen as kind of a specialized area, and you know not all judges come from family law backgrounds right they're learning lots of things at the same time when they get appointed to the family law bench. And it's kind of seen as like oh there's some real specialized person who's going to handle this so I don't have to. And what that often ends up resulting in is nobody deals with it. And those benefits get lost or those benefits don't get access they get returned to the plan, or the participant withdraws all the money. And so we're really seeing a huge loss of income for people that could make such a huge difference. So, yeah. And I can imagine if it's, you know, 10 or five, even five years, you know, three years after the divorce to realize that you should have gotten this quadro and must be exceedingly more difficult at that point, then it would have been, if it had it been done during the divorce process. My goal long term dream is everybody does quadros at the same time as the judgment, because so many things can happen right if it's in if the funds are in a 401k or some other type of retirement benefit where there's like a pot of money that money can all be withdrawn by the participant and maybe they withdraw it and move away and we can't find them and we don't know where the funds are. And so where people can retire or make an election when they retire that affects the, what we might call the outspouts for the alternate pays benefit. Sometimes pensions will allow people to elect a lump sum buyout when they retire. So that those funds might be totally gone. There's like such a huge benefit that is currently sort of not being handled. And we really want to make sure that people are getting those benefits that they're entitled to that they've often already been awarded. Wow. So, definitely a good, a good work and fighting the good fight out there. So what are some other myths and misconceptions about quadros that you encounter. The only big one is, oh, we don't have those in our cases are like communities don't have retirement benefits. And I really, I can see where that is coming from but I think there's a couple of ways in which that's a myth and a common misconception. The first is a lot of our clients, a lot of our legal service organization clients are married to someone who does have a retirement benefit, who wasn't a union who was a public employee who was in the military, who's a male carrier and has a federal pension. And then a huge number of organizations offer retirement benefits. Walmart has a 401k available to its associates. So these are far more common than I think most people realize but we may not be screening for them because we haven't had any resources to deal with them anyway, you know what I mean. And one thing I found really when I was at the Buhay Center where we had Louise on our board able to do these quadros is that once word kind of got out that we were able to provide the service that you know we had a resource. We started seeing them a lot more often I think both because we were you know screening for them more now that we knew we could actually do something about it. And because other organizations around us heard and knew that we had this resource. And then I think the other misconception is that's too hard. And I think that it has been quadros have been talked about as this you know like I said really rarefied ivory tower type of service. And what I think makes family law attorneys, and I've certainly thought this too. So anxious about them is that every plan is going to have a different requirement, right. Walmart wants different stuff and it's 401k then Costco wants and it's 401k quadro. That's just, and they get to decide that pursuant to federal law. So, but one of the things that we have available to us at the Center for Access to quadros is a really robust database of over 155,000 plans and what they need and what they want. So that information that we have that exists that's really robust and I can go in and look and see. Alright here's what Costco wants and it's 401k quadro. And really makes this process that can be much more streamlined and much easier to do than I think people are familiar with because they just see oh quadro oh so scary. Everyone wants to think different I don't know what it means. But it is understandable and it's doable. And we really want to support and empower legal service partners to provide this service with our in partnership with us and empower them to really run this part of their case the way they want to run it. That's really exciting and I know that there are people out there thinking, wow, I want access to this database. And we talked just a moment here about the center and who is the client for the center. That's a that's a great question so we started about two years ago with it's sort of seed funding from the California Access to Justice Commission. And what we and we were that funding was specifically to train legal services and self help center attorneys on how to do this work. And that everybody every organization, every attorney really needs a different level of support from us. Right. Some people are like, yes, I want to get on this platform. I want to draft quadros. I'm so excited. Other people are like, oh, absolutely not. I would like someplace to refer my litigants or my clients, but I don't. I'm not going to do it myself. What we've ended up doing is sort of coming up with three levels of service based on what our partner organization wants. So, if what our partner organization wants is just somewhere to send people just a referral pamphlet a QR code, we provide that service and right now we are screening those clients for income eligibility. They come in, we prepare the quadro for them, we get it pre approved by the plan and then provide them instructions about the next step. Some, some of our partners have wanted it to sort of be involved still they want to be copied on correspondence they want to communicate with their client, but they still want us to do the quadro drafting and communication with the plan. So we've done that we're calling that guided quadros and that has been super popular with a lot of our legal service organization partners. And then for those who are super excited about technology and really want to dive right in. We are providing free access to the Quadro Council platform that was developed by Elise Nixon and leading quadro attorney and leading valuation experts as well. So, and again that's with help from us and guidance from us and if you run into a problem you can call us. The important thing for us is that our partners are not on their own they know that we're there to support them every step of the way no matter how they want to incorporate this quadro work into their normal workflow. So I know that the program is active in California. Can you talk about that and whether the program is available in other areas of the country. Yeah, so because there are some, you know, family laws fairly state specific right, but a lot of this retirement benefit law is federal it's a Rissa it's military pension federal pension. So there are some small differences to date by state in terms of maybe when the marital period ends or what their pleadings look like. But for the most part, we believe very strongly that this can be a national program and that we can be providing services in all 50 states. I'm sure you've never heard that on your podcast where you talk to. So right now we have funding from the California Access to Justice Commission, as well as from the Nevada bar foundation to provide some trainings. So if people are listening to this and they're like oh my gosh I would love this I really want to, you know, start providing this service it's such a gap, such a that we really need to fill. I would encourage them to reach out to me and let's talk about ways we can partner together and get some funding because we would love to provide services everywhere because we know it's a problem right and it's a problem that doesn't just exist in California. I really want to partner with organizations who are experienced in what their client communities need. They don't want, we would never want it to seem like we're coming in with this big solution we have a lot of resources and we have knowledge and we want to share it. But we want to collaborate and work together to design a solution that is going to be workable and right sized for our partner organizations. It's going to be interesting and you know now we're moving into the technology improvement grant application period so this is a great time to have the podcast air you know who knows you may find a partner through it. So, as we met at the innovations and technology conference I had to think there it's just been a whirlwind two weeks since the conference, but so I know that you're also using social media. And social media played a huge role in my career path. So I have to ask, you know, is the center using social media. And how are you using it. Yeah, so we, I maintain a fairly active LinkedIn presence. I have, I love using technology to solve these problems. I struggle sometimes in a way that I think a lot of people do with like, let me talk about myself on social media. That's tough. But it's so much easier always to talk about the work right so we are using social media. We have blog posts about quadro issues. We have. That's where we advertise a lot of the free trainings that we give on quadro topics. Everything from quadro basics to specifics about how you can use a quadro to get a litigant or your client paid for back do support. So quadros are these really powerful things that we really want to make more known and more accessible and kind of democratize the access to them. Yeah, we use technology all the time and we are absolutely interested in a TIG with an LSE field grant recipient we really think that this technology can be designed specifically for use by a partner organization for their state their client community their staff. And we are really invested and interested in kind of exploring that with a partner. Awesome. So the blog you mentioned is that on your website the QuadroCenter.org that's QDROCenter.org. Yes, yes. And we have links there as well to the Quadro Council website, which also has blogs on it. So now is kind of a fun time. Do you have any success stories that you can share with the audience? I do. I do. That has been one of the just like such an enjoyable part of this is helping people resolve a problem. Look I'm getting like emotional. Resolve a problem that they've had for sometimes a very long time like we're seeing a lot of older women come to us having been divorced for like 15 or 20 years. The other participant may have been getting money all this time, have been receiving their pension all this time, and she was never able to access it because she didn't have a Quadro because this special, you know, five page order was what she needed in order to access that money and it's just such a fix that we can do, you know. So yes, a specific success story. We did have one litigant who was a woman who lived in Los Angeles she was unhoused she was living in her car with her kids, and her former husband was a teenster. And, you know, a lot of the litigants and the legal service organization partner clients that we see are survivors of domestic violence so a big part of that often involves financial abuse they don't tend to have a ton of information or know even that they might have a right to a retirement benefit. But if we're trained on these issues and we know how to spot them. As soon as somebody says teamster, all the little lights in our heads are going off about a union pension. And so we were able to prepare the Quadro for her, get it pre approved by the teamsters, and she started receiving a monthly benefit of $3,000 a month. And that's going to go on for her whole life that she's going to have this income stream. I mean that's going to put her in an apartment. That's going to, you know, assist with those monthly bills that's going to this is the difference that these orders that we can prepare in a short period of time can make in someone's life. So it's been really rewarding to do this work and sort of remove this barrier that so many people experience. You know, just that one story that was absolutely life changing for you know for the woman in that example. And I know that, you know, I, I may be my generation may be on the tail end of, you know, women staying at home, but for those women. That is a huge boom, you know, because many, my husband has joked that, you know, if we were to get divorced, I get nothing. I mean, and even as enlightened and educated as he is, you know, there definitely is that feeling that, you know, even though I stayed home with our kids for many years. Like, that that's his funds. I mean, so this sounds really bad about my husband. But I think I think that's not not untrue of many people from our generation, for example. So, you know, it just it's just a change in attitude and a change in how we view the world and just, you know, a number of people who this can help, you know, so absolutely great story. Yeah, and I think that that is it's, it's, you know, there's something like there's millions of divorces in the United States every year. How many of those people getting divorced are low income and unable to afford an attorney a significant number a huge percentage. And as we talked about earlier, it's incredible misconception that our client communities don't have retirement benefits they absolutely do. Even if our particular client maybe isn't the participant they might have an interest in someone else's pension in the their former spouses pension plan or retirement plan. I'm going to say this does also protect the plan participant, because if a plan is put on notice that someone else has an interest in the retirement plan, some plans will not allow the participant to retire until the quadros enter. I spoke to a gentleman on Friday who said I got divorced in 1990. I didn't realize that my purse had been joined to the divorce. I tried to retire, I'm no longer working. I thought I was going to have my retirement payment start in January. And I haven't had any income because I they won't process my retirement application until I have the quadro prepared. So it really affects both sides. But I think in particular for who might call the outspouse which in the quadro world we call the alternate payee. It can really be hugely life changing. So that gets into it a little bit what else needs to or what needs to change in the way retirement funds are distributed in divorce. I mean, do you have you thought of that. Yeah, I mean, I think what needs to change is, we have to be utilizing these laws that already exist, right, that say, okay, if you're going to, if you're divorced and you have an interest in a retirement benefit, you have to have this special order prepared. And I think for a long time we've sort of said, we don't have the resources, which is 100% accurate, we really haven't. We don't have the resources that's too hard and scary. So for us what really needs to change is, we want to utilize the technology to end this incredibly robust database I mean for me as a family law attorney, my client would come in and say, I don't really know what the other person has here's where they work, but I don't have the information. And so just being able to go in the database and be like put in Walmart and have all the information, the Walmart 401ks itself incredibly powerful. And then be able to draft a quadro for that plan in about 10 minutes is just a huge economy of scale that we can realize in providing these services. I think what we really want to do is sort of help automate the drafting of this because, you know, we're experiencing economies of scale now but I'm still, we're still doing them our staff is still doing them. If we could design, you know, an SRL system where we have people answer certain questions because we don't really need that much information in order to draft a quadro. I need to know like the name of the employer, and the court case number and everybody's address but I really don't need a ton of information. And if someone's listening to this, please send me an email or give me a call and I'll show you the software and how fast I can do it. But we really don't need a ton of information so if we could design some kind of web or mobile based application for an SRL to answer a few questions and get a quadro done and prepared and entered so that they're not facing this problem in 15 or 20 years when they desperately need an income stream in those older years. I think we could really prevent a lot of suffering and prevent a lot of uncertainty and instability, especially for our older populations. That's really interesting. So just for our audience just if you aren't aware SRL stands for self represented litigant. And that just means someone who is representing themselves in the court process. So what information because we don't want to dispense legal advice on the podcast but what information would you give to someone who is struggling with this problem. Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. Um, I mean, I think if we're talking about a litigant who is struggling with this issue. The sad answer is that in most places there, there is not a lot of resources for them. And that's really what we're here to fix and to change. You know, at ITC I was talking to attorneys from a state on the East Coast, and they said, there's one guy in their whole state that prepares cocktails. There's one guy. I'm sure he's great and wonderful, but you know, providing these services is is really where we're at. If you're a legal services attorney or a self help center staff member, reach out to us that that's what I think those people who are struggling with this issue can do and talk to us about ways that we can partner together and make these services available to you, because I have seen in the time that I've been at the center the incredible power that they have to make really positive changes for people. So, in doing this and working with your partner organizations. Are there other resources or tools that you've come across that you can use or that attorneys can use or that you would recommend in helping to create that fair distribution of assets. Yeah. So, one of the parts of the software platform that Louise helped develop that we have access to is the creation of judgment language. And I think there's one of the misconceptions about quadros right is oh they're so hard and scary. They're really not. And part because all we're doing when we're drafting the quadro is effectuating the language that's in the judgment. So if the language in the judgment is not fair or vague or not, or silent on an issue like survivor benefits which is huge. And the kids can run into a really huge problem down the line. So we do have resources to provide planned specific judgment language, because the judgment language you're going to need for say a military pension is going to be different for a 401k plan. And so I think that is among the most powerful things we can do because if somebody doesn't get their quadro done right away. Okay, I would love for them to do it at the same time as the judgment. But if they don't do it right away. They're still enough language in the judgment or in the divorce decree to protect them. So I would encourage people who are thinking about how to divide this and how to make it fair to give us a call. And what I would say is, and this is a little bit specific, I guess, but for a lot of these pension plans right which are not a pot of money in an account like a 401ks it's more like a right to receive an amount of money every month or so for the rest of your life. A lot of those pension plans will send out a statement that says here's the value of the employee contributions. The value of the plan that plan needs to be actuarially valued, because it's not just, you know that $100,000 and an account it's really that's what's been contributed to this right to receive. Because the platform that we use was developed not just by Louise but by leading valuation experts, I can actually run an actuarial present value calculation and prepare that for our legal service partners, so that when they're engaging with in negotiations about how to, you know, divide this or offset it. They have all the information that they need, and they have the most accurate information. It's really interesting because you know, it would be so easy to look at that statement think okay well we just divide that number in two. Yeah, but that's not. I started saying that in all of my training so like don't be misled by the statement from Perz or from whoever, because it doesn't include the employer contributions which sometimes are two thirds as much as what the employee has put in because those are primarily funded. So, it's definitely misled a lot of people, and I always, I always feel very sad when I see, you know, the value of CalPERS as reflected on this statement is, you know, $100,000 so we're splitting it and I'm like no. And that's part of why right when people are like oh quadros are so scary. I'm worried about malpractice. For us what we see is that that really attaches at the judgment right the judgment language has to be good the judgment terms have to make sense. Because what the quadro is doing is just effectuating what's already in the judgment. And I think that's the actuarial examination is huge because retirement plans count on the interest that gets you know added to over years and you know years and years there's so many more things that you have to think of that we as a busy attorney. That's not our specialty. That's awesome that that's all built into the system I think that's, that's great to hear making it attainable for those of us who don't have you know that accounting experience and that specialized experience that to to examine that those funds. How now you know now that you're you've been going and you've been working with partners. How are you measuring the impact of the center's work. Yeah, so I think we are measuring the impact in a couple of different ways. So the first is we have a robust training program for all of our partners. So I'm putting on webinars, all the time about quadro topics, which are free to attend. And right now those are funded by our access to justice grants in California and Nevada so those are, you know, for attorneys working there, but I would love to do them for other places. So how many attorneys are trained, how many are coming to trainings on different topics related to quadro issues, and then sort of anecdotally one recently a supervising attorney at one of our partner organization said, Yeah, after that last training I feel like I'm starting to understand like, Yes, that's the best that's exactly what I want. And I think coming from a family law background right, I sort of can think about what what do we actually need to know in order to like negotiate the end case what we actually need to know. And then the other way we're measuring our impact is how is our litigants our partner organization clients actually receiving money, how much are people getting we're trying to follow the cases through. It turns out it can be a little hard if we're helping somebody who's like 45 with her quadro for a pension plan. We're not going to know for a while how much they're going to get. But just recently we had a partner organizations client, we prepared the quadro for her, and the plan had been withholding a portion of the participants benefit after he retired, because they knew she had an interest. So once the quadro was done she got a lump sum of $25,000. Because he had been withholding for so long while she couldn't get it quadro done she couldn't access those funds. So it's hers. It's sitting in account it's ready for her. She got this lump sum and then on top of that she's going to get an amount every month for the rest of her life. So those are really in terms of dollars that can make a huge impact on our clients. That's how we're measuring our success as well. That's really awesome that you know we're seeing the benefits of companies who are doing the right thing up to a limit. They just can't give them to her until the quadro is done. So it's sitting there it's ready for her whenever she can get the quadro done and that's what's so I think frustrating for a lot of the litigants is they say I have this judgment, and the plan says they're withholding money for me, and but what's this extra step that I need to take. So we really want to resolve that because it's that money that the 25,000 that was hers already, you know, we just had to provide this order so that the plan could pay it out to her. So I think I think that this may have been your story may have been I know we'd plan to talk about other success stories, and this this that the one you just told us was huge. But are there any others that really touched you and let you know that you are on the right path or, you know, that the company was on the right path. I think, you know, one part of the work that is perhaps a little bit less measurable is the ways in which we are providing legal education to not just our partner organizations and the attorneys that work there, but also to the litigants that we work with and really empowering them so we had recently a litigant who was a survivor of domestic violence, and was not able to find assistance with the family law part of her case. We were referred by an organization that wasn't able to take her for her whole family law case. And so she was working with her former husband's attorney essentially negotiating the their divorce judgment negotiating their settlement their marital settlement agreement. And we were able to, you know, their initial offer to her was something like, Well, you're not going to be able to get a quadro. So we'll buy you out for, you know, sense on the dollar of what she would have actually been entitled to. And I think, you know, even a year or two years ago she wouldn't have had any record like she just would have had to take that because she didn't have any resources or power to say no actually can get one done. And so we were able, you know, once she found us we said, Hey, you know, yeah, of course we'll do the quadro for you for free. And we helped her do as well as sort of current calculation for what the the retirement benefit was worth and so she was able to negotiate from a place of knowledge and from a place of empowerment, and from a place of knowing that there was someone who could assist her and she didn't just have to take that first offer she was able to actively participate in her case, and actively participate in the negotiation, which was so challenging for her and in a lot of different ways. And of course we couldn't help every part of it we were only providing this small piece, but I think that that did make a huge difference that she was able to say no actually I do have the resources to do this, and I have the knowledge that this is what I'm entitled to So that that was really powerful for me as well. That's beautiful, you know, so many don't have the resources and don't have the information so to be able to turn around and provide that is just, you know, it's just a beautiful thing that the center is able to do. It's the coolest job in the world. It's so neat and so needed. And I just like I feel so strongly about it that that this is for the clients that need it such a life changing service, and it can make such a huge difference. And it's a problem that exists everywhere. And I really think we can help address it. Absolutely. And, but I would have to differ a little bit on the best job in the world. For each other we have our own best job. So, I know throughout the interview we've been talking about you mentioned several things of goals and your hopes and dreams. Are there any others that we that you haven't mentioned that you want to put out into the world that sometimes you know, tell, you know, putting it out there just makes it tangible. Yeah. I think ultimately what I really want is everybody who needs a quadro gets a quadro. That that's really at the risk of sounding like pithy, I guess. But, you know, this is such a barrier that we can take down that doesn't need to be there. And the solution using the technology that we have. I really feel very strongly that that we can make a big difference. So I think for the real long term goal is everybody that needs a quadro to access their money that belongs to them that they've already been awarded. Everybody that needs a quadro gets a quadro. That's awesome. So, now to another fun question. What is one question that you wish you would be asked in interviews. That's a great question. Um, I mean, can I please give you a large sum of money to assist you with your work. Absolutely. Yes, 100%. But I think just realistically, more realistically, how can I, how can I help how can, how can I, you know, make the service I see the need I get where you're coming from I can see what you're saying. How can I help. And I think for any like field grant recipients are listening to this we really think a tag is a very good fit for us. And we really want to make these services available to the lit against and clients served by really every organization across the country because we can do it and you know how powerful it is. Let's let's help with people who want to ask those questions and tell people how they can get in touch with you. So, the center's phone number is 909 686 1154 and we are small but mighty so the chances that you get me when you answer the phone or not zero. And they can reach out to me by email. It's Carrie C a r i e at quadro q d r o center.org. And I'd really love to talk to anyone who's even slightly interested in this work, even just wow quadros are so much cooler than I thought they were that would be very exciting email. Yeah, I think that that's those are probably the best ways to get in touch with us by email or by phone and then I'm on LinkedIn to if you want to reach out there. Great. So, I know we've talked about ways throughout again but I'm going to give you another opportunity. What can people do to support the center and get involved with the mission. I would say as kind of a first step. Think about ways in which retirement benefits do come up in your cases. And, you know, I think, because we're often not looking out for them, because there's not been anywhere to send people or any way to assist we don't see them. So I would encourage people to sort of keep an eye out for these kinds of issues. And then, you know, if there are any grants available in your area that you think would be good to help provide the services we're already providing in California and a little bit in Nevada as well. We would love to pursue those with you we're all about collaboration and partnership, because we really see our role as supporting the legal aid staff attorneys and I've been illegally accepted so I know how busy you are. I know your case will look like. So that that's really our, our role is to sort of be the support be the help be the expertise that you can rely on to assist you in this part of your case. That's a really great suggestion you know we kind of think well what can I do to help you know I don't either. Yes, definitely seeing a grant that's available and you think oh, I just heard a podcast about that let's let's look that back up and maybe send that information so yes sending on information is a huge help you may not have the money yourself, but passing that along can be a great way to support so great great answer. Welcome to the end of the interview and I really appreciate you being here carry this has been really fascinating interesting, you know I learned some things. I got challenged on some things so that's awesome, but we always give our guest one last question and it is, what is your favorite app right now, and why, or what tech tip do you have for our listeners. Well, the New York Times puzzle app gets a lot of use on my phone. I love crosswords. But I think really the, the best app that like I'm really excited about is one that we can see ourselves creating with a partner for take. And really the thing that I'm so thrilled about thinking about and talking about is how can we design something that's going to help resolve this issue. So it's a two part answer. One is the word all the size. Long we're going to work on, hopefully with a partner and help resolve these big issues. I love it taking every opportunity to get the plugs in there. I think that's great. So thank you again carry I really have enjoyed this. This chance to talk and I know that our audience is going to enjoy hearing about the center and learning a little bit more about you as well. So thank you for being here. And we'll talk to you next time.