 Okay, good evening, everyone. Good morning. I'm gonna call the meeting to order at four minutes after five. We've got our sound problems behind us. We do have some guests here. We have Steve Dennis and I'm sorry. Samantha. Samantha, I'm sorry, I don't know why I can't remember your name, I apologize. Samantha and sir, you are? Oh, Larry Decker, I live on Lower Cypher Creek. Okay, welcome. Welcome. Conservation Commission. Oh yes, I wanted to conservation commission. Okay, great. And we need to approve minutes for my question. Yeah, and there's somebody, who is Moto G Silas? Yeah, yeah, we got a couple of those on the floor. Who is Moto G Silas? Hello? That's the screen. I don't know who you are. Jake. And then we have Bob Thompson. Bob, hi. Sorry about that. We do have to approve our minutes of the August 15, 2023 regular select board meeting and also the August 16th and 17th emergency meetings. But let's do the regular select board meeting first. Is there a motion? I'll move, we approve the minutes for August 15th. That's our second. It's our second best. Thank you, Big Bear. It's been moved in second. He'll approve the minutes of August 15th. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? The August 16th emergency meeting and I do not have a good list of who. I think I was at both. Here it is. I've got the August 17th one. I don't know the August 16th one. You didn't get everybody was there. Well, everybody was there. That's all I get. I'll move the 16th. Okay. Is there a second for the 16th? Okay. Thank you, Victor. It's been moved in second to approve the minutes of August 16th. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? We've approved them. And then the 17th was the one you warned at. Correct. That's correct. So is there a motion on the August 17th minutes? I'll move it. I'll second it. Okay. We're developing a pattern here. It's been moved in second to approve the August 17th minutes. All those in favor? Please say aye. Aye. So we've approved all those minutes. And we need to approve our agenda agenda for the September 5th tonight. I just want to my nose. 2023. Geez. He came down from the skyline. Select for agenda. Are there any amendments to the agenda? To the amended agenda? Is there a motion to approve? I move that we approve the agenda today. Okay. And a second, please. Yep. Okay. Thank you, Randy. It's been moved in seconded to approve the agenda of tonight's meeting. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. We've gotten through the boilerplate. Approving the letter to USDA's Natural Resource Conservation Service in which the town offers to sponsor the emergency watershed program in place of the Middlesex Conservation Commission seeking federal funds to help safeguard lives and property for memandazer of additional flooding and soil erosion. And I presume that's why you were here. Well, I've been volunteering to be a technical person on the letter, so to speak. And I am with the Conservation Commission. Okay. And Bridget brought this to us. And so we went forward and a letter was sent from Akron McGeeta as our chair to NR Natural Resource Conservation Service, the old soil conservation service. And so they've had this program for many years where if the property is not damaged but the river is coming close, then they can get into looking at getting debris out of the river, getting gravel out of the river that's appropriate and riprap next to the houses. So what's been happening is they have gone, I've gone out twice with them. Phil and I have went out once. And I've gone around town. People were contacted by Adrian. And in turn, they agreed to be visited. And so we've been looking around. And on the day I was out, maybe two or three might have fallen in in their criteria, which is pretty tight. Yeah. Pretty tight criteria. And so another day I went out too, maybe one or two could have fallen in the criteria. So, and then another aspect of it is that I went out with them and I saw what might, the town can all be part of this. And that is because if there's town infrastructure next to that stream, but it's not damaged, then perhaps money can be put towards protecting the town infrastructure. So there was a spot there that I saw. And then I was out with an RCS person, Abbey. Abbey, yes. And Abbey Cook. And Abbey Cook. I'm sorry, I'm on Zoom. Oh, okay. He works with Mike. Oh, there, okay. So I didn't know that. Hi there. And so she saw it and she was actually running to move forward with it. And I said, well, we gotta put that on the list and I don't know how much she put more on the list. I've looked at Adrian McGean's list of houses and pieces of infrastructure to look at, but we added this one town piece to that list, I believe. But again, that's whether the town wants to participate or not, there's another piece. My sister always called me during so many years. I think she would learn. So that sounds like maybe eight or 10 houses, potentially. Yeah, I mean, they make the decision. They will write a letter back to the conservation commission and we would let people know whether they would fall in and then there's steps after that. They have to, it's a 25% batch. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question. Yeah. So, but we emailed around. It was Adrian's list and then Mike's office, which I thought I'd leave your Mike's supervisor, correct? Right. And Mike forwarded us a list of folks that he said, okay, this doesn't mean that they're admitted, but we would like Lister's cards for, and that's the shorter list in the email. But Mike mentioned anything about whether or not you guys have gotten that information. Oh, thank you, Sarah. I assume he got the Lister's cards. I don't know. Okay. And just for folks that are in the room, Bob, would you be willing to just give an ABC on from what it is and how much money in the criteria? Well, in a night, well, I tell you what, I have, I have a presentation. I has a couple of pictures in that presentation. I'll show you what we're looking for approximately. And I won't go through the entire presentation, but let me, let me share my screen and show it to you. And then that might give you a better idea of what we're looking for here. I think, I think this will work. Yeah, we see it. Okay. Yeah. All right, let me. Okay. Again, I'm going to skip through a lot of this. So we can, we can work on both. Public or private property. Although we have to work through a sponsor usually in Vermont, usually it's, it's, it's the, it's the towns. We can't work directly with a private landowner. We can't work directly with a private landowner. And then we have 60 days from the date of the watershed event, which I believe was July 11th. For the, for the sponsors to submit a. A letter of request, which the conservation commission in middle sex has already done that. I'm guessing. They want to switch over to the town to do that. I don't know, but. But the deadlines coming up here in a few days. I think it's going to get extended. Just for your information, we did put in a request to extend that deadline, but I can't guarantee a hundred percent. That's going to get extended. I think it will, but, but anyway. So I'll skip over that. Again, we're trying to reduce eminent threat to life and property and a property is defined as an artificial structure permanently in the state. So that's why we're trying to do that. This program does not pertain to crop fields and stuff like that. So it needs to be economically defensible. Another words. We're not going to spend. $400,000 to, to. To save a $200,000 house. I might be a bad example, but. So that's the reason why Mike's asking for the list of cards. We're not going to be available. We're not going to be available. So we have to make sure we're not. Taken out any endangered species and cultural resources and stuff like that. So yeah, needs to be technically sound. So we cannot rebuild something. So if the house is already gone, we can't rebuild it. If the driveway has already been washed out, I think we can help with that, but it's already been washed out. Our program cannot assist with that. So, again, we do, we pay 75% for construction costs. And then the sponsor would have to pay the other 25%. Oh, this is very important. And unlike FEMA, we do not have the authority just point the finger and tell you to go ahead and do it. We have to have a written agreement between the sponsor and NRCS before any work is done. This happens almost every event. The town just goes out and goes ahead and does it. And they come back and they want paid and there was no agreement. So this is very important to understand that that we, unlike FEMA, we have to have a written agreement before any work can be done. So the sponsors is responsible for land rights. You know, usually like, if you have to cross somebody else's property to get access to it, securing permits, the 25%, accomplishing the work, in other words, putting the work out to bid and so on and so forth, responsible for the O&M plan, O&M operation. And also the sponsors going to be responsible. We're very shorthand engineering wise. So we're going to ask the sponsor to hire a third party engineer to do this design work. Now we do have some administrative funds that can help. We can put toward this. I won't guarantee it's going to cover 100% of it though. Now what a lot of towns do is they take this stuff that the sponsors responsible for, and they'll do a reciprocal agreement with the land owner. So they'll ask the land owner, okay, you put up the 25% and you take responsibility of the O&M, of the project, and then we will go ahead and allow this to happen. So that's generally how it happens. Most towns do this. And usually we do it locally led. In other words, you, the sponsor would hire the contractor. You would pay the contractor and then we would reimburse you for the 75%. There's also a thing called force account where the sponsor can use their own forces equipment to do the repair. You pay 75% of that. Well, mostly what we're looking at in what we do is debris removal, either removing trees and gravel from the stream that's threatening a culvert, a road, a house or something like that. Or we're looking at stream bank erosion. And again, I'm going, I'm going to skip ahead and just show you this is kind of what we're looking at. This was a project in Irene. What we look at, we look at this, what kind of threat is there to the house? And basically it, we, we feel it's reasonably assured that the next storm, next slide that comes through is probably going to take that house out. So we feel that this was eligible. And, and I'll show you what we did here in a little bit. And then the same thing here. It's, it's reasonable, reasonable to us to assume that the next flood comes from that garage is gone. So that definitely is eligible. So, and again, it has to be economically and environmentally defensible. So here, here's what we did with this one project. This was before. And this was after we came in with riprap. And then we were able to, you know, we, you know, We did with this one project. This was before. And this was after we came in with riprap. And we, we armored the. So, and we eliminate that threat to that garage. And here's this one. Again, we have a threat there. And we, we come back with riprap. And we eliminate that threat. Here's another one. We felt that there is a threat to both the road up there. So we came in after, and we felt that it was threat. We paid 75% to repair that. This is another one. This is a little more complicated here in this picture. Actually a driveway is blown out. So there's really, according to the program, there's nothing we can really do. Plus. Plus the buildings like 80 feet away. So really, we didn't feel there's enough of a threat to qualify for this program. But this is kind of gets. You know, you know, if you turn around, if you're standing right where the pictures being, and you turn around 180, this is what it looks like downstream. Well downstream, we feel, okay, there is a threat to that bridge. There is a threat to that road. And this part does qualify. So what we did afterwards that we came back in, we put riprap in, they covered it over with. But in this situation, because we had to tie the riprap into a stable stream bank, we had to come way up here and tie it into a stable stream bank. So even though this part of it didn't qualify. We had to run this, the riprap, the whole way up to here anyway. To stabilize this. So it's kind of a unique situation. Debris removal. A lot of debris. If it's threatening a bridge, a culvert, a house. We can help pay to remove that debris. Now, if it's just an eye sore and there's not a threat, we're probably not going to go in and take it out. Here. What's on the left here is what a debris that's been removed. And then what's on the right is a sediment. That's a gravel that needs to be removed. So, so I think I'll, I'll stop the program. Right there. And then we're going to go ahead and take it out. And then we're going to go ahead and take it out. And then we're going to go ahead and take it out. Any more questions? I'll go ahead and take that one. Yeah. Are right there. And ask, answer, answer any questions you might have. Oh, I think I understand the building party. Pretty clear. Um, Do I totally understand it? No, of course, not. I get it. I've been doing this, I've been doing this for 30 years. And I'm not so sure I totally understand it. But yeah, yeah. I mean, we've done a lot of work already in situations that this might have been applicable if we could have waited, right? The work on the brook road, for instance, and some of the other, but are there other places that still are in imminent need of repair that might fall out of the... Right, the old hill road, very ridden, Macaulay, hill bridges, the stone fill that was up against the abutment washed out. Yep. That river is headed to cut the access to great brook and the rest of Macaulay hill roads out and where we just paid. And so we need to put some stone fill, put that stone fill back up into it. So that sounds like it might fall out, but it sounds like imminent risk to me, imminent risk to infrastructure. Or do you have it until it's ready? Wow. Without seeing it, I can't say for sure. Yeah, it'd be worth our guys coming out and taking a look at it. Yes. Okay. And part of the reason for that is there is a very large gravel deposit bar just on the Macaulay hill roadside that everybody's itching to get out of there. Yeah. Bob. There's the other part of it, yes, Liz. Bob, one of the examples you used was one of the giant culverts. Is that considered one of these structures? Correct. Yes. In that situation, we're protecting a town road and the town culvert. Now, if this was, if that was a federally assisted road, we couldn't help with that, but because if it's a town road and I believe most of your roads are going to be owned by the town. So I was going to say something, and I completely forgot. But anyway, this funding is only available when it's like a nationally declared disaster? No. Oh, that's what I was going to say, but unlike FEMA, we do not have to have a national disaster that our state conservationists can declare a disaster. You know, if it's a really, really isolated storm event or something like that, our state conservationists can come in and we've done that in the past where it didn't qualify for a national disaster, but we've come in. I think we did Montgomery in 97 was a was a very isolated case. It did not qualify for a national disaster, but we were able to go in and still go in and do some repair work. What I was going to say was if it's at all possible to get FEMA to do the work, their process is a lot more streamlined than ours is. We got we got a drum through a lot of hoops in order to do it. So I'm not saying I'm refusing to do the work. But if you can get FEMA to do it, in my opinion, that's the way to go. Otherwise, yes, we can come in. If the bridge is threatened, if the road is threatened. Now, if it's already washed out, there's nothing we can do. But if it's threatened, like the examples we just showed there, yes, we it should qualify for our program. And how much money do you have? Well, like if I for a certain amount or had a bit of work, they go to the sites and they say, OK, about this and then the money comes from the feds to the states to the town and the reason the Conservation Commission is looking to make the substitution to the select board level is Conservation Commission. A, I don't believe it has a bank account. And B, they're concerned that if it's at the Conservation Commission level that if somebody falls there and didn't come forward with the 25 percent, the select board would have more teeth to be able to put the muscle on to the person that owes the funds. So I understand, Bob, and if I'm wrong, it comes in. You guys say, OK, according to what we're looking at with these are the numbers we're going to we put in the paperwork to the feds. The feds then go through what they have to do. They give us the money and then we distribute it all in one lump sum. Yes. Yeah. I mean, great job. But, yeah, we still we're still assessing the sites. We got to do an environmental evaluation, economic evaluation. We got to do cost estimates. So it plus we have I think we're up to 80 or 90 sites that we have to evaluate. But the idea is we put this into into a portal and then that goes to Washington and then Washington approves it and then they send us the send us the money. And then once the once we have the money in hand, then we can start going out to the towns and start working on some of this, start working on the designs, start working on hiring engineers and stuff like that to get the work done. Did I lose? Did I lose you? Or. OK, there you are. OK, OK. So my follow up to that is we for the letter, we've already submitted it. We're already enrolled in the program. This is just a substitution. Peter has the same letter that we submitted and it's just a switchover that Peter's going to sign where Adrian had and then. So we'll get that into Mike's office by tomorrow morning. And that'll make that'll meet the deadline for I believe it's the seventh. We've got the list so far, but we still have more time to add to the list. Correct. Yes, you can add to the list. Yes, yes. And at what point will that window close? We're well, of course, we have 60 days to get this letter in. And I'm told 60 days after the letter, we have 60 days to process all these sites and get those in. So once we have another 60 days to get that all processed and then we get the money, we start start working on on the projects. So, yeah. And Sarah, you had concerns about matching funds, I believe. Well, that 25 percent was an illustrative because you know, that kind of staffed by us this big and I can't administer this grant. I can't hire an engineer. So Adrian and I have already talked about it and we with the conservation I with the conservation commission will be your of your person. That's awesome. Yeah. Now now this. OK, I'm sorry to answer the money question. Excuse me, just one question. So I understand that we can require. I mean, if it's obviously us, if it's the town, then the 25 percent matches all ours. But but we can decide and presumably not on a case by case basis, but on a blanket basis that if a project is approved, it is the property owners responsibility to come up with a 25 percent match. And I believe I believe most towns collect that up front in an escrow. I don't think they wait till after the fact. I think I could be wrong. But I believe most towns that we work with, they collect that money up front so they don't get stepped for the bill reason for that. Yeah, that's what I was going to do into the space. What about is there interim expenses that the town's going to have to pay for? Because as of now, we need to be very cautious every dollar that we commit to until we can get our people back. And I don't think that we should be committing to pay these bills up front if we don't have the funds to do it. So Bob, how does it, excuse me, very good. So how does that work in terms of cash flow? Because the situation we're in right now is we have. Huge bills for rung repairs. And FEMA is telling us that no matter what, even if we submit all the paperwork and do everything, it's going to be months and months before we receive any of that money. So when I mean, first of all, I guess the question is, if you accept one of these projects, when would the work likely be done? It's not going to be done this fall or this winter, right? It would be next year probably. Well, ideally it's supposed to be an emergency program. But like I said, it takes us a while to get the DSRs done to get all the work done. By the time we get that in, I think it gets approved pretty quickly. We get the money back. And then we have to mobilize forces to hire engineers and stuff like that. So you are right. It could be very late fall, could be this winter we're doing it, or it may have to wait till spring before anything gets implemented. But as far as the money, the administrative costs, the 75% is technical. We do have a little pot of administrative money that we can, that we can pass on to the sponsor as far as paying for administrative costs. Primarily I'm thinking the engineering, we can pass that on. You know, if we can group a bunch of projects together, maybe that would help economy of scale, make the engineering a little more affordable that way. But that being said, that letter that you're sending in does not commit to you financially one iota. That's just, the only thing that letter that you're sending in tomorrow is just basically it's obligating you to go out with us when we come out to assess the sites. The landowner and you as a sponsor, you can, you can actually cancel the agreement up to the day they go to start construction. Because, you know, if something happens, the bid comes in much higher, much higher than, than you were anticipating in the landowner, landowner or you as a sponsor decide that we just can't afford to do it. You can cancel that right up to the. So I, I understand the concern about sending these letters in what kind of commitment that is, but the, there's really no with this letter is not committing you to any kind of financial commitment. So let's say we go ahead with this, and we have three or four projects, which we, which we undertake and agree to sponsor as part of this and the landowners agree to contribute their 25%. How long does it take? After, I mean, do we have to pay the bills and then get reimbursed? Do we submit the bills to you? Correct. But, but once the, once the project's done, I like to think, and the proper paperwork is filled out. I think we can make that payment pretty quickly. And what's your definition of pretty quickly. No, no, no, no, no. Now, Mike can probably answer it all, it all comes down to getting the, you know, our frustration is getting, you know, of course the busy dorm is getting the sponsor to submit the proper paperwork. And it's a lot of time it's like a game of tennis where we keep batting it back. It's not filled out right. But if the town, you know, the print, if finish the project, we'll go down and do the final inspection. And then we'll get the money back. And then we'll go on to the second day to, and if all the proper paperwork is, is submitted on day three, we, we submit that all to the portal and hopefully. Hopefully within a couple of weeks, you should see a payment in your account. Thank you. Now again. Now again, that's for the 75%. up front. That's exactly what I was thinking. I was just going to say that I've really never been so impressed with responsiveness from Mike and his staff and the fact that you're available tonight, Bob. We've got three of us, the rest of the conservation commission, along with the gentleman's name that is he's the former conservation chair. What's his name? Oh, right. Lee? No, it's like, shit. He actually is a water engineer. Oh, naturally. Okay. And that's on it with us too. So I think that I'm uncomfortable saying that I think that we should move forward. And again, the landowners, the list is, I didn't count it, but it's not sure. So there was a lot of interest. I don't know whether everybody, the shorter list with the Lister's card, that didn't mean that the other folks were going to be excluded. But it's a good number of people that'll be getting some assistance and they want to. There's nine on the shortest. Thanks, Randy. No, well. And it's in our best interest, honestly, because these are our taxpayers. Well, and we're preventing by doing this horrible preventing damage in the future. I just, again, we're in a tight spot about this, about this situation. And I just want to be sure we don't commit to something that we change. Another thing, Bob, in the paperwork that I haven't talked to Mike about, but there was an in lieu of that your 25% match could be work on site. So yeah, it can be, it can be in kind, but that's when you're really in a hurry to get it done quickly. It's a lot of, a lot of towns just can't make it work, you know, when they need 30 or 40,000. For the foreseeable future, we've got so much work on our plate to take on. Bob, can I just ask one quick question? Those pictures that you showed, maybe like the most basic one, or like the house, for example, that was sort of falling. How much would something like that cost? Do you have any idea? Well, the price of rip rep is really going up in the last five years with COVID and everything. You know, that one house, maybe 40 or 50,000. The garage is probably 60 or 70,000. I'm guess, I'm taking a wild ass guess at that right at this point, really. But that's what, that's part of what Mike is working on right now is actually trying to come up with, it's still a ballpark, it's still crude, but he's trying to come up with cost estimates on all these projects. And those numbers we're sending into Washington that they're going to, and that's what they're going to use to give us our obligation to fund these projects. So I hope I answered your question and didn't do a sidestep on it. Yeah, I didn't know if it was 5,000 or 200,000, right? I think I'm in the ballpark. I don't think it's 200,000. Bob, I just had a question, two questions, actually. You said paperwork's a major hang-up for you guys. Do you guys have the capacity to assist with making sure that people fill out properly? Mike is so diligent. The only thing you have to worry about is if Mike decides to retire, but Mike is really good at helping you. He all but fills it out for you. So he's really good at explaining stuff. And going back to what you said earlier, we realize this is very overwhelming for you. You've got a dozen different federal agencies coming in trying to explain a dozen different federal programs. And we realize this is overwhelming for you. Plus, you're short staffed yourself. But we want to try to make ourselves available as much as we can to help you through the process. Thanks. The other question that I had was, if a project's accepted, is there a time frame that they have to get the work done within, you know, what's that agreement assigned? Do they have, I mean, projects vary depending on, you know, the impact of the project, obviously. But is there any kind of sunset that we need to worry about? I believe the program says 220 days, but I'll be perfectly honest with you. We're still working on 2019 EWP work. So projects can be extended. It'll have to be a really, really good reason why we just cancel a project. So I don't think, obviously, for our benefit, for your benefit, we want to get it done as quickly as possible. And then that's our goal. But you know, there's just sometimes either the design doesn't get done or the landowners having trouble raising the money. We just don't want to, you want to give everybody the absolute ability to make it work if we can. So again, I think I sidestepped your question again. Well, we hear you. Yeah, Vicar. So I understand this. Now, you said there was a few people, like nine or 10, there's nine on the short list. None. That's what I heard. Yeah. So if you put in an application for all of these, is there a possibility they got all accepted? And then we would, we would be holding, we would be paying these people, which is Peter said, we don't have the money to do. Is that a possibility that we would be, I don't want to use the term on the hook, but we would, we would be paying out until we got money back, which may be a buying force. Could be. I mean, just a comment on that. First of all, I can't imagine they're all going to happen at the same time. I mean, this is going to be spread out over a long period of time. And second of all, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Bob, but I just can't imagine with everything going on in Vermont now, that it's going to be possible to do these projects this year. I mean, maybe you know something, but I'll tell you, way into the future. So yeah, I agree. I agree. Presumably after the schema, who do is over. Just to follow up on your point, Victor, you know, I absolutely the town holding the bill on stuff like this is, it's, you know, it's something to think long and hard about. I think that requiring landowners that the handle there 25% and put that into escrow is absolutely part of what we need to do. So the town isn't in a position where we're holding the bag at the end. It's also my understanding, Bob, based on what you said or something you said earlier that just because a project is selected doesn't mean that every project that's selected actually has to move forward. Generally, you know, I don't know why, but it seems like 50%. You know, some of the landowners are come out and say, I can't afford to do this. You know, it's still, it's still got to go through an environmental review. We're still doing economic review. That's the reason why we're getting the list of cards. So it's still possibly the shortlist could get shortened even more. So so there's, we still a little bit of the process left to go yet, but like I said, seems like 50% of all the projects that we look at in any given town are the ones that actually get implemented. I was going to I was going to say, especially with us requiring the 25%, I bet that shortlist gets short, will down. Yes, very good. Say they choose not to go ahead. We've already got their 25%. They don't submit paperwork. We just give them back their money. And it's just it's a the to the administration costs at this point, I understand. And Bob, maybe I'm wrong on this is that you guys are going to do the estimating provide numbers. We will pull together paperwork talking to people about their 25% commitment based on that budget. They'll know what that 25% is. And then they can decide at that point whether or not they want to move forward. Yep. Yep. And then once we get the obligation of money, I mean, that's that's half the battle right there. Then we have to move forward with the project as far as where you're going to have to hire an engineer to design this up. And then the engineer will follow through and certify provide construction inspection and certify that the project was installed correctly in the end. I can't guarantee that the administrative funds that we're going to offer is going to cover 100% of that. I just I just wanted to make that clear. And say the gentleman's the contractor say that the contractor comes back and the money they're requesting is a little higher than what was anticipated. You would cover that? If the bid comes in higher, we can go back and revise the agreement to pay the higher rate. So that as far as the technical assistance, we're going to do the best we can to meet that 75%. But if something happens, you just go ahead and do the work and we don't revise the agreement, then you're on the hook for that that over read. So it takes we can make it happen pretty fast. It takes a few days to revise the agreement. Usually somebody on a select board has signature signatory authority to approve that on a moment's notice. And usually we can make that happen pretty quick. And that happens all the time. Usually, usually we're very conservative with our estimates and there. But every once in a while, one goes over. I mean, contractors are straight out there, they're not looking for work. So that's the overall supply and demand that that happens. So thank you, Bob. Any other questions for Bob? Yeah, I'm sorry to answer my question. I just have one other question, Bob. There is reference to 90% for limited resource areas. Can you talk about what the limited resource area is? Well, in a nutshell, there are no limited resource areas in Vermont. So that kind of throws that answer is 20. Well, and I hate to mention this. You know, during Irene, the damage was so severe that they were able to bump everything up to a 90%. I don't know if that's going to happen with this event. They're still calculating the numbers. So I guess it's a remote possibility that might happen. All I can do is say we'll wait and see. But all I can do now is just promise that we'll cover 75%. If we get 90%, that'll be a little bit grainy. Yeah, thank you. Okay, what is this move to the letter? Is there a second? Okay, any further discussion? This letter doesn't need to go into, you know, a plan as far as, you know, requiring a space. It isn't just the application fees on Twitter. Yes. And this is a, you've got a copy of this in your email, I believe. Yeah, we all did. So as far as I'm concerned, you know, I don't know why we wouldn't do this, whether we go all the way with this, we've got to see how it goes and see how we're doing. But I'm comfortable with the, with the financial risk, I guess. Okay. And I'll get with Eric and think about getting that McCulloch Hill address on the list. Okay. And we've got two more months to add to it. So, okay. So the motion's been moved and seconded. All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? When you're in favor, vote aye. You're in favor. Okay. So I'm signing the letter. Are we going to give them the letter again? Yes, hand it to me and I'll get it faxed in and scanned over to Mike and Mom. Thank you for taking this home. And you'll get a copy of it too. I promise. I might just reply on everybody. Oh, that's fine. There you go. Thank you. Well, and again, we're here to help you through the process. If you have any questions, don't hesitate. Mike is really good at this program. You know, don't hesitate to reach out. There's no such thing as a stupid question. There's no such thing as too many questions. So don't hesitate to give us a call. Okay, Bob. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm going to leave the meeting now. So thank you very much. Thank you. Take care. I'm sorry. I'm going to suggest that we just skewer the agenda into the buyouts, maybe the listeners thing so that you guys, instead of starting this conversation in the highway department, you're going to go instead of meeting. I mean, that's a suggestion. You need to do a lot. And though we skipped a... We need to skip the part of the civil authority back in 12 minutes. All right. But do we have members of the board of civil authority here? No. They were warned to be here at six o'clock. What I'm saying is, can we skip down to the agenda to handle the other parts of the select board agenda? This is an amazing... Oh, all right. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. I agree with that. So let's defer... If she'll be there, you can do the... I'm going to talk about... Yeah, I know G-Dawn. He's coming on video now. I am here. Okay. Are you ready to discuss that? Ready to go? Sure. Okay. Well, we're going to skip down to you on the agenda just so we don't get in the middle of the highway stuff before we have to adjourn for the board of civil authority meetings. Okay. Is that not in there? You're talking about the heirs and emissions, correct? Yes. Okay. What happened is Onanat and I first came on. It looks like when there was a subdivision on Boldick Holdens, when you do the change onto the grand list, which we were not aware of, it did not cross over to the CAMA system. So it was changed in one place and not on another, but on the property taxes, it appears correct, but it is not. So I worked with our DA last week to make it correct, and that's why you see the heirs and emissions. So 20 acres were sold and subdivided, and it was still on the property taxes like in the background on one of the systems. It didn't just cross over automatically, which we were not aware of, and that's why the change. What happens to taxing those 20 acres that disappears until next year? No. What it did is that we printed out two new bills and sent them on. I think what's happening, what it looks like is the ones that 20 acres got taxed and then the ones that sold the 20 acres out of 68 also got taxed. Now the property tax bill, it appears that it's not that, but it is. So when I get back, when I get back into it, I'm going to- By accepting this, we're not giving up any 10 money worth of tax money. No, no, no. I mean, I think the ones that had these 68 acres will pay a little bit less. I mean, not a lot, but they should pay less if they don't have the acreage. Yep. Okay. And there's another one. I think that Sarah just sent me a text message when I was in root today, and I'll take it up when I get back. It's something similar. So I'm concerned that with the transition of Listers, we were not aware that there's another field that doesn't populate automatically. You have to go and manually change it. So we're going to make sure that all others are correct when I get back. Okay. Any questions, board members? Is there a motion to approve? I'd like the motion that we approve. And there's the recycling. Thank you, Randy. Okay. All in favor of accepting the Listers recommendation to correct the Bulldog Holdings tax bill appropriately for the description. Yeah. Or you're saying, yeah. I'm just kidding. Anybody get close? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Kelly. How about first set of buyouts, Sarah? Okay. You ready? Yep. We're ready. So, instead of refrew the limited buyouts, but these are our applications to go forward. Very, but it's very similar model to what you're doing, what you did tonight with the river situation in the U.S. You're basically, FEMA is very well aware of all these properties. I've seen all the Lister cards. I've seen applications. These are the applications from homeowners. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to read them into the record. And if you approve, going forward, you're just going forward. You're not going to commit this down. Does that make sense? So you repeat the last sentence? You're not forward. Committing the town. The town can pull out. FEMA has not said, Vermont Emergency Management, which administers the program, has not said whether or not these guys are actually going to get buyouts. But they can't start investigating whether or not they're eligible for buyouts until they get these applications. Okay. So here again, here again is the issue right based on our, based on our past experience with these buyouts. Are there, are there organizations in the background that are going to help us with our share of this? Or are we on the hook, likely to be on the hook for the whole amount? We're certainly not going to be on the hook for the whole amount. I mean, I would as a slight forward. No, no, no, not the whole amount. The 25%. Yeah. So far in our buyout history, we have never put a dime into buyouts. Yeah. Never had a lift. We never had a lift, either. I mean, a lot of these people are applying because they want to see how much money they're going to get from the federal government. They just want to see what it is. So a lot of them are not going to stick. And it is a huge procedural. I mean, I'm so far behind my town clerk work, mostly because of this and all the other things that they just, it's huge, but I don't know. This is the court's decision. You can say no to these, or else you can say yes. So by accepting the applications tonight, we're saying we're not agreeing that we will definitely do this, right? We're saying, well, you know, like we could have just pulled out of the 28 Ridge Road deal a week before right after. Right. The administrative version that we're accepting to take time away from you or whoever is going to be dealing with that. What you're saying with these is that you're going to have a signatory is that one of the pages says we agree, we understand that if we agree to this and we go forward with this, that property will never be able to be taxed. That's one of the basic bottom lines. Yeah, we understand that. Right. So that's, I mean, part of these applications, the purpose is for the homeowners to know what they're going to go through and also for the town to know what it's going to go through. All these buyouts go through those properties go off the tax cuts. Right. Then our taxes go up. I will also add that Capstone has submitted a grant to provide up to eight statewide case managers for disaster recovery. And those case managers actually sort of take over the job that you're doing, holding the hands of the people. So they take on these people as a part of their case to help them through that process. Well, let me just tell you that once we go through this, that's almost done. So there are some things they'll have to come up with. They'll have to say, you know, whether or not they have to account for what kind of font money they've already received from the BMSR. That's also a part of these applications. But maybe you might go back and say, well, what did you get for properties for Irene? I don't know. I mean, that's what happened with the employment road case. But after this, it's the town that hands this, i.e. me. So I mean, that's a huge burden. But I don't see what else to do when you have people who live in houses that are destined to take it out. I mean, these are all of them are elderly, not all, but some are elderly. And they don't have any choices. Well, unfortunately, unfortunately, I think we've got this. I mean, our residents are in dire straits and we can go forward. I mean, if it turns out that in the state of Vermont, and until this flood, the state of Vermont has been flushed with cash when it comes to this program, they're the ones who are donating this 25% or giving the 25% for each road. But I do think that the board can say, put it in the midst, that it depends on where that 25% match comes. If that 25% match isn't going to be around, then we can't do this. The town can't absorb that kind of cost. We're already losing money. Yeah. I'm going to be responsible for the 25% Okay. Technically, the homeowner would be Yeah. I mean, what we've gone through so far is there's no obligation in these papers that says that the homeowner, that the town would be responsible for the 25% It's just that the federal government is only going to pay 75%. There's no financial agreement. All you're signing here is you're just saying that you are going to, that you agree that to participate in this program, to go forward in this program, but also that you're going to lose this money. It must put an easement on it, and that it will, and that will never ever be able to be developed. So these are not binding contracts. I mean, we're kind of, there's no binding contract. Yeah. But I mean, they are, they do start the process. Yeah. But it's very similar to what we just learned with this program. It's the same thing, but in the applications, we may decide, we may say, all of these, half of these, we don't know, and then they start generating more serious people. Well, it'll be interesting to say, but once again, no matter what happens, not all the people are going to want to go ahead. When they see what the money is, they're going to say, how am I going to live anywhere else for that amount of money? You know, the same thing we've heard in the past, though. I would find it hard to believe that they would all go forward. But anyway, I think we need to go ahead with this step. Well, they can't. I mean, if you say no, it stops. Right. I'm not going to say, I'm not going to say no to our residents on this, especially if they've done work to get that application together. So I think she needs to read them a lot for this. Oh, okay. Yeah, just in case. So, so far we have Cindy Curlsson, 144th Street, Malbridge Road. We have Adam and Rhonda Cook. They are at their own Malbridge Road, right down the street. 176th, Malbridge Road. We have the fence in 73 Malbridge Road. We have, this is interesting, Karen Jeanette and Carol Maloney all over on the other side of Cuttenhamville, for 175 Vermont through 12. We have Dina and Gregory Hallock at 123 Malbridge Road. We have Gene and Nancy Kennedy at 42 Cross Road. We have Ellen L. Investments at 143 Malbridge Road. We have the Collins at 138 Malbridge Road. We have the Ryan at 148 Malbridge Road. We have the Squans at 168 Malbridge Road. We have the Woods at 128 Malbridge Road. That's it. Quite a bit. And is there a deadline for them to submit that? They're right. So far it's very squishy, but they think the state of Vermont's saying maybe they're going to cut them off next summer. Oh, okay. So there's still time for. But I mean, the idea is that for middle sex itself and a good life because we've gone through all this vetting, you know, to do 128-bridge road, we had to do submit. So they were in their system. So we've already, we've got the Duns number and the cage code, you know, all sorts of stuff. We were primed. And they know, they know, the state knows about this road. Right. All about two or three months or two. It's six o'clock. I moved it. We accept those applications. And how does he designate Peter's design? Are you? I think it would be better if you slide forward here so I'm going to look at it. And designate Peter's design. Yeah, Peter, can you move? Okay. Is there a second? Brandy, thank you. All in favor? All right. Okay. So we are going to recess the select board meeting. It's two minutes after sex. And we need to start the board's civil authority meeting. I guess that's me. Thank you. Okay. Is there a, am I, my deepest apologies and I'm in control of that. Okay. That's not very good. All right. It's a gallon of that. No. No. I don't know. So, you know, John is involved in the pie house. I know. It's a two-year-old. I'll be back in my spring working. Did you? I'm going to take a lunch break. I'm going to take a lunch break. It's very bad. It's very bad. I'm going to go to the dry light house. Oh, that's good. Oh, that's good. We just started working on it. That's fine. Bye. This is going to join the meeting. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. I'll give you call this meeting to order at 603 for the civil authority. Uh, let's see. Um, biennial review of the middle sex chest lift. That's nice. Biennial review of the town checklist for 17 BSA statute 2150C designating voters who can send challenge letters authorizing town to purge voters who missed at least two general elections who do not respond to previous challenge letters action likely. Okay, the list. So you guys, um, you probably didn't print out your checklist. No. No. Yeah, okay. I'll share it with you. Well, you guys, this is a lot of paper. I have one. Okay. Well, let's, I can go through. I've already done a preliminary check for everything. If you guys just want to go through. All right. Why don't I just read off to one of them. I think there are some that have already been challenged that we need to boot off the list. And then there are others that we need to. We can put it in the file. You want me to go through. Yeah. Sorry. Stop me if you think these people are still around. I'm going to go through one of them. And I'm going to go through one of them. I'm going to go through one of them. And then I'm going to go through one of them. Mary and Allen. Um, way seven Vermont route. Well, they'll know her. No. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'll just look. And you can sit next to me. Um, Alexander, Arthur's 161. That's a, that's a condo that's sold many times. And I'll take it around. But I did say look for people who voted before. Who had last voted before 2020, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. The other one is to stop me. Sarah Austin. I was going to read through it. Elizabeth. I'm going to send a challenge letter with your approval to Jimmy Bernard of 161. She had a railroad. Same thing. Uh, Susan being as long gone. That house is five maybe shady railroad. Dead. That is she's on my challenge list. But that's been a property by the court closure. I think I've talked to her. I've talked to her. I've talked to her. I've talked to her. Chris Blackburn of 23. Leland farm road. I think he's moved. I think he's moved to him. Okay. I'm going to send him a challenge letter. Starlet Bowden. I think she's a student who's gone on to better things. Ethan Bowden is divorced. And they have, he has moved to Washington, DC. And I don't have a bowden class voted in 2020, but she, but all my mail to her has returned so I can either challenge her or remove her. What do you mind doing? Remover. 598 g real road he's on my challenge list he hasn't responded so I think he's gone here's an interesting one George and Tonya Brett they certainly live in town they haven't voted since 2018 2016 um you know if they've moved they live they live there okay so don't challenge them okay Nancy and oh yeah thank you they also live in right um let's see uh Amanda Burnham 611 center road no she's fine so that's an example of somebody who goes someplace else and registered here um Pamela Byrd 73 Molly Superl I don't even does anybody know her no okay she knew the challenge letter then timothy kane 908 ua 3 2 that's a partly building we get a lot of them here um Mariah Carlson Kerrigan she's already been challenged she's gonna I'm gonna yank here with her permission kelly carol at four south barris pop road does anybody know where south barris pop so she lives with um you're taking the very same card one of the big cards as far as I know she's there okay then I won't tell him thank you um good kary champagne champagne well 325 shaded real I mean she's sure she's surely but I don't know kary is a male or female let's see is anyone know philip dulcimer at 36 three mile bridge road andrew danio he's he's a I know he's gone on to better things I'm gonna challenge him a letter I'm gonna challenge him uh principal davey at 155 davey road stop if you've heard any of these joellen demers and randle demers hey you know these to own the the metamarch jeffrey duplesis completely different person literally a completely different person moved to california different different gender different person different definitely no you looked at life who isn't that um mary emerson 406 us room two ring a bell with anybody shawn everhart 27 wood road nope okay um allie freeman of mccullough hill road she's a little very more right that's her thing freeman has there doesn't daughter yeah she went over there she went went to britain i don't want to she went overseas and i don't know was to take her off the checklist um but uh maybe i'll send her a challenge letter because of that uh linda gamble of 92 bill net road she's been on my challenge list i think we'll be anchored for any garrant for garrant hill anybody know uh i would venture to guess she's not i think she lives in Boston yeah okay great perfect um wade great 594 vermont roo 12 nope uh lindy gregory 565 75 east hill road that's your neck in the list here you know lindy gregory i have no idea i mean i mean i have sick that's gone i think it's already got amy harris of 114 east hill road anybody got a clue there she moved she lives in uh or yeah her order or wow okay bring me there for a long time yeah she happened there she's been on my challenge list i don't know why i look at him scott harvey 103 us for two 103 for us for two no um as of a few months ago he's asked for money for the um i think he's still there that's an apartment okay great yeah perfect that's wonderful emma hawk oh hawk do you know what happened to them this does hawk i know those guys know that's your i think they're gone it brings way uh john haze 209 berg road i don't know who that is but i'm gonna send them a challenger they live in that bean house that's the hang yeah okay so i don't switch the garden right down the road great thank you very much um okay here we go uh we've got emma hemstead of 307 culver hill road that's your neck with some familiar emma hemstead she probably live that looks like it might be sarah seedman's rental ah good idea i think that i probably might be there she's probably not there anymore okay sarah hinderson 116 c non-road no sarah's like eric's age and so she's probably she's been on there anymore yet he's gone uh michael hawkman of at two center road because white treasures no they were different michael hawk michael hawk the two center road how about yeah the panagas pineapple it's just good well she's on her first one um i'll go to siri hawkman eight two two center road i'm trying to think what's an eight two two center road but you know we don't miss those ever again okay i got an idea i know what i know what else to talk about when you go to sir okay william holmes that's wane holmes is uh son who's the long gone from there um maha jerkowitz of 18 north norton road anybody know her harry uh davie who's going to send him a challenge letter who's marion elsewhere so both those boys are in the military yeah i know so do we challenge them if they're in the military just because they haven't voted uh i well that's a good question i mean davie comes about voted in 19 2020 kathryn in 2022 but kenneth in 2016 and kenneth has had a challenge letter sent to him so um he got married and he moved to a different state he moved to a different state yeah he's got kids i know what you're talking about gotta be careful with the military but they both live out of state kathryn lives in washington dc and davie i don't work take looks he's an albuquerque i believe but i i think it's worth sending both those guys challenge letters okay but i think that's i think that's fine but i mean we should be cognizant that they're in the military you have to be very very careful that alexa krasinski 84 simplest simplicity acres and she's i think i moved out she's i think i've got married and kathryn has been kind of a since i got that um mckinsey latimore 2010 210 wood road she's on my challenge look no one knows who he is yeah no actually i'm here i'm taylor lawson of 32 pr2 i don't even know where that is here's one frank lupurbo of lupurbo yeah he's around he's still around i believe he's here yeah okay yeah right he's here okay um let's see who else we got here oh yes legitimately you're next door neighbor no it was in the top of the car right now he's right up his food oh okay all right um the legend is they moved a while ago so they're not drove i'm going to just there on my challenge list and they yanked them kevin lyon 71 upper sunny berg road anybody know anything harley martin 143 well bridge road obviously it's i'm going to send her a challenge letter because i don't think that's it now oh she might be okay actually that might be the daughter um we'll be right along print room ran 782 east hill road sound familiar mm-hmm nancy morocco 22 pr3 no keith murphy 152 lower cyberg road murphy oh you're what did you do lower cyberg oh that's fine there i'm rushing there in the color right jake murray i know jake murray's gone on to brighter shores right yeah i'm gonna send him a challenge letter that was a brian 60 upper sunny berg definitely maybe the red house mr rippling's old rental oh yeah transition that that that's old but that's a rental last voted 2008 2008 i think yeah dug in rachel o'donald 2017 2017 he's got one long time enough okay a brian's okay good a brian shawn o'neill 29 jb road so we olson come on somebody with no answer you know yeah so we all seem to be done so is oh yeah yeah yeah she's saying okay we'll set her a challenge letter don o'neill sharyl don o'neill is sharyl's fun yeah yeah he's on my he's on my my list where should i should i put him i mean he's brought up and yeah he's not challenged him before he hasn't responded so yeah he's probably doing okay um uh rebecca phillips 143 malbridge road that was another address we can't let this be just like um what we have this one and that's perfect uh kathryn ross 55 peace fairs uh jeremy schneider uh they tell the schneiders say that he has moved i've sent him a challenge letter he has responded sarah sins 903 us through two rebelle ben scholdek has gone he's gone yeah um brad spencer nates spencer i'm going to send them challenge letters let's you guys do the wandering around now i'm not feeling them lori sterns 105 blower centipede road challenge loris can read this a little bit earlier how about uh james and bill tatro well what is i'm sorry i've got james tatro 13 portal road and jill taylor at 15 shirt street i don't think either of them is there challenge them and bash on long gone right she's gone go all right um and then let's see what's we got uh here's your friend pennie vanderbush who's here he's there um fancy bastard 27 three-mile bridge road and i think they sold and then we've got friend wine garden he's gone gone on the white stone list and um mark white 83 blower centipede road he's here he just hasn't voted right you guys know my point but i think he was the one who actually had to take his the seal wood 114 east james thank you 14 east jill is that a familiar seal wood oh yeah the seal wood is uh sorry she's also in uh out west okay her parents moved there the scholdek and oh all right great that helps a lot okay leave or yonder 513 willie drive no that's it yeah so all you hey just make a motion to uh yeah you have to think this is kind of the end okay so the challenge letter okay dokie can you hear it for us yeah can you he said just said lupus middler brown is a challenge letter okay um proof blackburn very very good yeah um you put that in anderson no i think this is one of the big things i don't okay so please thank you and then anderson said image on letter okay have a seat yeah okay um very sorry i tried to join on zoom but i was not able oh probably that wasn't by there yeah and that's why i just drove sorry sorry all feral feral i think he's in need okay that's peter peter's good all right you have anyone you'd like to challenge i don't mean god no they're all right okay great so all we need is a motion saying that uh to prove though those who will be challenged i'll give you guys a notice that i sent to the secretary of states office saying you know we challenged egg number voters or even so many voters that were challenged from the checklist who had not voted into at least two election cycles two general elections so okay darynda's going to make the motion thank you darynda chris is going to second okay all those in favor hi i'm sorry it's been a statutory obligation of days to spare thank you very much all righty so therefore we now adjourn at 6 20 we're going to the board of civil authority right now we've got to go to a board of abatement meeting we've got to have a uh we should have an organizational meeting the listeners uh shelly are you still here i don't see she's she says she is yep i am still here okay shelly so now we're going to the board of abatement so the board of abatement is the select board jp's treasurer and um uh town clerk and the listeners so uh my my suggestion was to have a board of abatement organizational meeting where we just pick a chair vice chair and also maybe select a date to hear um a tax abatement request so far we've received only one formal tax abatement request um but you know one september 20 first deadline passes i mean i'm sure i think we're anticipating that some people might come forward and ask for tax payments yeah because they were flooded out yeah so all we need to do is choose a chair vice chair and then if you guys want to take a date okay i nominate peter hook to the chair okay oh sure all the heat goes on you peter peter chair yeah okay are there any other nominations there is no more abatement so who calls it who knows all right hold those in favor of peter could his chair say i okay is there a call for a vice chair now now it goes over to peter oh yeah i nominate luce sharp i second that okay second to that randy okay luce shard is nominated to be vice chair all in favor i i any oppose congratulations luce thank you who seconded that was it randy great awesome so i did at at your beheston with stern warning read all that abatement stuff yeah but i'm i'm confused about one issue and it's probably a very simple issue but we can't abate school facts it's right it's just but we still don't hate them it's still on the platform but you can't abate them yeah but i mean yeah yeah yeah but the board can make a decision you know if we get but so the way this is going to work is that the homeowners have got to come and try to pitch their case right and they've got to give us some information like how much they got an insurance why they why this bill should be justified to spend it to thrust it onto the neighbors which is what you're doing you're burning your neighbors so there's some people who may have some really good arguments there's some people who are just like i i i don't want to pay my taxes because my house and then the board of abatement's got to make a decision you know how do you look at things you just look at the house structure do you look at this do you think you know so there are all sorts of things to consider on a case by case basis but we i just wanted to clear about this because it's important because it's two thirds of the tax money right is the school so we make the decision we can say we'll abate the town taxes but we want to make the school you can make that decision okay now is there any there's no way they can go through the state and have the school taxes abated correct not to my knowledge or information but certainly this is going to be something that the legislature's going to have to address so they say it's like very and stuff yeah not failure okay and my question was do they um do we still get the tax credit for the i would assume we do because we're just abating their portion of it yes so we would still get paid their property tax rebates to the town but we would be just just abating the net tax it's not abating the property yeah it's all based off the previous year anyway the rebates right i know right but we're just they just got a net tax but we're not going to go right yeah right net tax right so would you guys like to debate the need yeah i was sure something tover and november let's have it be a tuesday like all right i that used to be like i mean november's november's pretty good for me so i don't know if we want to do it the same night of a select board meeting i mean i i guess where it's going to depend on and we have two or three of them that's one the fall of all of a sudden we have ten of them we may have to do multiple nights but let's let's set up one night let's set up one night start the ball rolling so in november we do first tuesday that's election day you don't want to do our election there's nothing there's no election you have to do it on tuesday no but it's just to nothing no nothing it's an off year you never know it from the way around i just i just think it's a bad precedent to do just to an election so the 20 how about the 21st that would be our second meeting okay well that's helping when the fire department comes in and the budget that's yes we want to do it another day wait why can't we do it on our first tuesday or november i'm sorry why can't we do the first tuesday of november the seventh that's the seventh that's election day there's no election there's no election all right well let's do it the seventh okay everybody worry but oh hold on if we're scheduling this and what if we get like three more we'll have to schedule another day or else we can just do three at one three at a time you know this is there's no there's no hard and fast rule it's what the board of evasion the evasion handbook says pay your taxes wear it on your note it's not like the board of civil authority where you have a grievance and you got to hear it within a certain time and you got to do all this the only evasion thing that i i remember us dealing with was years ago and it took quite a bit of time i mean it was not that too it was not a simple quick it was it took a while it's not a simple quick thing we don't have to make a decision that night you're not even supposed to make a decision no but just hearing just hearing that i'm just saying i have a memory that we spent a lot of a lot of time on that and that was years ago i don't know but let's let's say we'll start then and we'll see how many we get i think it just at least we can give people who have applied now we can say okay you know give them a date they've got to get their stuff together and also we've got to warn it right because there are parts of it i've got to check this again how much of this will be public because people will bring in private financial information on the other hand when you're baiting somebody's taxes that's got it that's that's not as a big last time the last time we had an appointment hearing was when the um the lawyer came in to argue that maria had not told him about the other year tax remember that yes i thought we also had the guy whose house burned down i don't remember and we had a we did there was an abatement there was an abatement wasn't it the girl on the camp i thought that was that that wasn't amazing that was one of the right but it was a girl that bought a camp he did because she bought a camp well let's just see how it goes guys you have the right it's a causey it's it's a causey public you can go into deliberative executive set yeah but we're talking about i think you're talking about public individuals information being in the public in great um can i you think that's all across public i do yeah you know they're asking to to be released of a public duty right you know so i think yeah well we'll get to that okay is there a deadline by which people have to apply or no no so they can they can apply at a later time in which case we'd have to convene another day yeah so yeah we should set one meeting knowing that there's a lot of unknowns right and we're gonna have to do a process like you said well there's three or ten or fifty oh that's that's why that's why i wanted to have that you know discussion yeah in terms of schedule do you want to consider when the tax is due no no i mean so if they don't pay you know the 72 penalty yes they are you know saying we're not going to evade it well yeah you know the handbook the literature i gave everyone i said the first line is paid taxes yeah okay you don't know what you're gonna get right okay just kind of hey right you're saying you can't avoid that well people i think the biggest argument i'm hearing is like i don't have the help to live in now if i live someplace else why should i have to go back to the argument that whatever you want on April 1st is what gets taxed so now you're in a more evaded time well i say we i said yes uh no please go ahead then i was just gonna say let's let's go for the seven and see how many we really have and we'll we'll just take it from there do we want to publicize and then have the we have a hearing hearing hearing we want to come in instead of consent we did not publicize that and just when people fight tell them then we don't have a hearing in the second no i say i say what we do is we tell them that our first set of hearings will be on the 7th but we don't know when we will be hearing there i mean we'll give them plenty of notice what might be on the 7th or it might be at some later date depending on how many we get well substantially i can want to be a 15th head but what i'll do is i'll want to be a 15th head but if we get an application people have been saying you know i need this i need this evasion done because i have my taxes in here when i send them information saying that's not how that hasn't been completed but i've paid so many enemies in this town it's really fun but if we can say we're having hearing energy well we'll put you on for june for governor that's great okay yeah let's see what happens right so my my thoughts are and you know having being relatively new to this you know uh and not doing the agreement understanding that we're spreading the tax burden to everyone else in town and this might be more volume than the standalone things that are given in the past like the what what i'm going to be thinking about is exactly how much burden is spread like you know whether it's per 100,000 or per whatever so i you know maybe a sideline conversation but i hope we'll have the numbers and i'll volunteer a little to do some math like if i have a lot of numbers but as people are coming in saying you know i have no house i can't pay how many you know dollars per 10,000 or 100,000 is it i feel like that's an important friend that is important to be thinking about like you know especially you know because you know people literally lost their houses and we're all covering 20 bucks ahead that's one thing if it's 500 bucks that that's like you know a different conversation well it's but it's potentially real money yeah i mean if they say you know it's 50% of the value of my house that should be the evaded amount i'm just saying whatever it is if we agree um you know could it be a thousand dollars absolutely it could be it could be more could be less um but as a percentage of our total taxes is pretty small yeah like that's what i'm saying diffused over everyone else that's kind of right together and out right and that's right yeah right right right well i think we've done what you needed to do right yeah yeah so i will adjourn with my new powers but you need a time for that meeting you need a time for that meeting on a Saturday is it six oh yeah that's a good point six o'clock it's the same night the flight right okay we'll mix it apart yeah yeah yeah good that's good that's the evadement of the tax or is the evadement of the valuation of the property it's the gradient of tax so we're going to be talking about property value yeah because we're going to be talking about the tax this year yeah but it can also be a part of it it can be uh just the down part yeah it can be fees only like yeah yeah no more guilt or some subcommittee going into it and yeah and don't do that stuff like we really appreciate it we need to do something better just the valuation yeah okay so that that meeting started at 6 18 and we're done okay so i am adjourning the board of evadement here thank you all for your time and attention meeting the board of evadement here and i have reconvening for a hold i hope the select board made thank you so we are we are now back to flood recovery update reviewing freema timeline for reimbursement submissions current state of repairs and future tasks total expenditures to date planning permanent repairs and reviewing the process acts for possible you want to start this off the rinda about the about the money part or how do you know we're going well i'm concerned about the bills and how they're going in there is and i mean there's many parts to this um the first part is i think we're a long past uh emergency compares and should be in and through um regular repairs and which would go out of the way um secondly some of the the invoicing that's coming in is got to go back and be readdressed that's why i gave you some of the major bills here i tried to sit down with just doing over on the color hill the other day and your very first bill with jmail construction it's all you have is a bill for $28,000 it doesn't account for anything it's on more than just the color hill road so you don't know which portion was addressed to that and this isn't i'm not it's consistently through several of the bills build up road with material what material um so these bills you know stone fill these bills need to go back and be put on whatever speed is deemed as special projects um and i just you know i feel before i pay any more bills that we should have the correct billing in place before we continue the pay on the bills i think it's not a big ask um the other thing which i don't know if it's being addressed is a lot of these bills that who is anybody cross referencing the macula bills versus what we're being billed for for material on that effect you know is it coming so like what you're saying if they're buying material for macula is it so not only one maybe we're probably paying a markup on it instead of being directly billed from macula because they charge whether you're nary and john they charge at the same rate so if you're paying a higher rate for the material for them to log it in um you know that's something that should be a lot about you know a lot of this is already done but also you know was this material built to the contractor or was it built to us right so so far i mean from the from the bills i've seen which are just the bills you gave us it appears it's all built to the contractor well i mean we don't have any bills from my color do we we have tons of oh we do all right okay all right so you know okay i got up against on these bills that um right now we're sitting at the machine chords down to 1.7 173 173 yeah yeah one one million one hundred seventy three thousand six hundred and seventy four dollars and eighty cents okay and that's just what i've seen so far that doesn't say whether they can pay not pay or whatever that's just bills that have come across my guess um the line of credit is for 1.5 we've also spent all of our money that is in our reserve funds fund balance fund balance everything i mean i've had a lot of people throw out well we can borrow from this to pay that well we just got in a hundred and seventy six thousand dollars bill from pipe for the paving project we only have a hundred thousand in the bank and i just think there's not a lot of weight being put into the back that when we met the other denny said work has to stop it's kind of discarding when you see people still out there weren't you i don't know anybody i'm just saying that i am truly concerned yeah so certainly absolutely we have to have correct invoices which match up with what you need to do yes i'm going to do with you to run the on some of those bills because you're absolutely right they they are going to need to correct bills absolutely right yeah right but i guess and i guess uh i mean they're gonna they're gonna squeal some of them but you know they've got to know what we're going through with fee i mean they can they can sit down in a couple of hours and break out that bill the way we needed to get it back to us yeah we can't submit we can't submit a single bill to fee right until these are all corrected um so it's a concern you know the other thing is we have and i'm estimating we have a school payment which we're on level four we've used all the money that's coming in from taxes and from everything else it's going to be eight hundred fifty thousand dollars that we have to pay next month yeah so we're out of money um and i think we need to take a serious will as to what projects the core is what projects are going to put on hold what we eliminate from our budget is possible um you know town hall we can't put any more money into that grant or anything like that when these are the types of projects that until we get start to get reimbursed you know so there's been a lot of confusion about this about this FEMA thing but what i've heard on the conference call what i've participated in is if we can close out some of these projects and submit them we can get reimbursed sooner rather than later yeah i understand i see you were on the yeah um so i think one of the things one of the things we need to focus on is take a look at the scope of work and say okay which ones can we which ones can we close out and what i was thinking about is if we close them out and there's more work that needs to be done that's going to have to be done in the normal course of work by the by our road crew maybe i don't know i don't know what the answer is but somehow we got to we got to start the money yeah these all of the jobs can be closed out right now there can be more work to be done at a later date on these roads and we can put that out a bit until during during this uh we do need to have these bills corrected but there also may be some roads because we do just some roads that need attention now we're going to have to put some of them out the bed maybe don't want to put all all the projects but we're bringing them on on to do a damage inventory for FEMA uh the only good news was that any of the roads that the town has worked on which was almost every one of them during the emergency phase they can now be paid for as long as we're doing as long as there's some other work that has to be done on that road which there is on every one of them so you're kind of between the rock and hard spot i mean school starts and so twice a day uh you can't really be holding the road up you got to stop to put a cover across and you're putting that you know right and then if we get snow and some this isn't done like over my uh weeds about their farm various areas you're going to be in trouble question can we get far more money no i'm not just talking to you here i'm talking to the cities but can we borrow from a different um blender i don't know i mean how far i mean i can look into that i can well what so you said that the other day i think the last meeting you were going to go for a million and a half right right and you haven't got quite to it but it really doesn't it doesn't matter because we are we're close to expending that whole million and a half and my concern is we still need money to operate we still have to meet right payroll we still have to pay for repairs from my understanding we've got a large repair coming not as big as i had as well well that's good news i found out today that's forward figure repeat better it's not as big as it was it was a lesser of the uh of the thong so it was it's good lesser of the evil yes it was but no what i'm saying during this that or is it you know whether you want to have i can go tomorrow and take tomorrow okay one and a half okay so but that's not the issue that's not you're going to be borrowing more how much do we want to go and get is that what you're saying not just how much we want to go and get as it is we still have i've used up all of our fund damage and um you know our wiggle money so it's going and that's what we operate you know like our property taxes coming in right now that is you know that's what we use to pay our school taxes and if we're using to pay this right so you know we need a direction from the board as to you know what they want to do you know where they think they should scale back what work is necessary to be done um i mean we're going to go out not that it's a large sum of money but i'm not paying interest on a million and a half and that's not reimbursable um so these are all things that you know and every day there's somebody else that is kind i'm already getting letters from all these special groups and want their $250 in there whatever you know and they're all in the same prediction that we are so it's like um i'm just trying to give you fair warning that you know got it so so so number one number one and i know this is hard to do when you guys hate doing it when i try and pin you down but if we're at 1.173 now right what do we have left to do in terms of flood repairs it's not even what's left to do though is what bills what's that happened in the last couple of weeks that happened we're gonna say look probably probably does not have all of the bills today probably no i know that i know i know that but i mean we're do we have any idea some idea of what we can expect the total to be or are we just right now operating in the dark you mean on on the project the whole thing by the time we get to this the end of this what's your best estimate guess estimate what it's gonna be i mean we thought we thought borrowing that 1.5 was gonna be enough well clearly it isn't so it depends on how much worth you're gonna some well let's put it this way i'm not saying to get the roads perfect okay but to get them passable and safe for the winter that's what i'm talking about if there's more work to be done next year we can work on it i mean as far as i'm concerned for instance all our plans of what our highway work plan is are off the table for the foreseeable future until we get all this work behind us so you know we're going to be doing work next year which is still flood recovery work uh yeah i anticipate um but the roads need to be safe i mean drive a van to the school bus coming down the east hill right now on a on a snowy morning and hooking a wheel and one of those organic holes one of those gigantic holes that isn't going to be pretty and they're going to be cars zipping off into those ditches and everything else so there's a certain amount of this that is a serious safety as you said victor we got to do it before snow time which basically means we've got 60 days if we're lucky maybe not that long so what is it boys as far as that figure goes i mean i i started doing some estimating on some of these roads but from what i'm hearing in that half like darunda doesn't have all the bills yet on this i guess i guess what i would suggest from like we we wanted to start putting some of these roads out to bed but i hold on well i don't think it can hold off but i think what you need to do is for us to redo work we went over as far as what we're doing on the roads and just do it so it's just safety measures on all roads create a new project close out these projects get reimbursed and then whatever having you know we may have to do a bond for some of this work i mean who knows what we're gonna have to do do we have do we have a sense of like when we close the project out i mean it's still months before thema's done chaos right i think jerry or somebody said that usually you look at 90 days but they've seen them come through with everything's clean and zips right through that you might see it what are other times now it's doing that have this terrible think they're having meetings just like what we're doing do you have any idea i don't i don't know but there is something i need to add uh the paving project on shader rail is not done it's not what it's not done one lane is not done right but we've got the bill that's not the whole bill what came in today was a little bill it's the whole grant i don't think it is i think that's just the statement so this is this is the statement that's the entire grant these are yeah i think if you look back at the bill it says up to the last guy's up so far um i thought that was the entire grant but i'll have to go back yeah it's my grant but i will double check that because they they need to come back and finish that we have an unmoving road and they have ability to come back at the end of the week i need to know if i tell them to do or don't kind of got it will it over on my play it's supposed to so i mean we're jumping all over the place but i have a question i have a question about that little section you know since it's been converted to a gravel road i think it's fine why don't we even want to pave that little stretch of road especially if we don't have the money well i think the state gave us a grant to pay the road not to i thought that i thought that little section was on us was that included in the paving that was added on i thought it was on us it is it was added on yeah it's added on oh all right so you know it's uh are you talking about the useful part correct yes right i think i want to increase that grant so at least i kind of a number to add it somehow you got some idea in your head what the what the number is 2.75 million really yeah so we need to borrow another basically 1.5 million right well i know but i'm on the same side and say let's double it when you mentioned closing out the project what's the title of the new work is it still flood so related the way the way it works is that we have several roads listed everywhere you see in it and report and those are the roads that everybody went to fix right away because middle sex was crap then some of the same roads in fact fema wants to save them some of those same roads if you go back and those are permanent construction so because fema doesn't want to say oh you did a million dollars worth of work a non-bid work so we have to go back and do that so that's kind of the year but i think jerry just stopped in jerry vision of our fema doesn't need to buy distance boarding and stopped to ski to me about getting the emergency roads classified and also the the other part i'm just don't know if you guys know this but if they it's an emergency road and you're not going to go back to that emergency road the road crew can only become the road crews time can only be compensated it's over if you're working on a road that will then be part of the permit we rebuilt with an eye for hazard mitigation because human doesn't want to be giving us money that we're just going to you know put in two small culverts then the road crews time can be reimbursed if for its daily work time it's it's almost fast accurate you think that they would do but that's that so and also i have to write a narrative um that the board i was going to bring it tonight but i just bring it out of time by next week i'm going to have a narrative slate you know what what conditions why conditions were so bad and little sex that we had to brush out and hire a bunch of contractors to do it this way as opposed to saying every day it should be how much it will cost to fix that so anything i can anything any photos that anybody has from the dam so bad those like lower subject center road just set them on in we're going to send that in with our proposal but upload that to jerry once you guys agree with the next meeting we're going to upload that to fema and that's going to be our pitch to fema about why we had to deal with that so if i go out and take out the whole line in credit i can kind of bring us back to normal back to where we were pre flood okay and then we can start spending that money again but what we need to be conscious of is the school payment the fire truck that we committed to um and our regular operating costs right so you know that's kind of why i'm just trying to really well i think what we're i think what we're thinking of doing is saying only safety related get the roads in shape that they're safe for the winter work and i don't know how much how much work is that boy i know you i don't get hate when they do this but we've got to raise the money somehow so i i don't know i'm not going to go figure it out i mean there's a lot of safety work i mean i'll go around again with with i went with eric and vick and we went around on stuff that needs to happen to recover from the flood but there's a lot of that work that can be we just let it go just do the safety something like go on Peter no one of the things that when we were going around there wasn't so much that it was a safety issue a lot of it is just things that have to be addressed for the next time we get five inches six inches of rain we're really really proud of this we got that picture but but somehow i believe me i understand that and we don't want to you know the the balancing act is we do this i'm not going to call it temporary work but partial work to make the roads safe for the for the winter time right well that doesn't mean they're safe for the next sitting for any storm they're not there's a lot of the damage is going to recur and i could tell you and i drive around town too not not up and down every road but there's been a lot of slew singing watching since the flood some of those storms we've had uh we've had some but to come to the chase here i think we need to figure out how to borrow some more money i don't think there's any question about that and is the money another another 1.5 have we signed a loan document yet um so the question is i mean is it is it the bank's rule if they only want us to come once no that's what this fair line of credit that's why she said that one like if you pay down on the loan you couldn't go back it's a line of credit that when it's gone it's gone but i wonder if we can increase the line of credit i was just going to say if we haven't withdrawn anyone yeah yeah would they increase i can call into the if i was a bank i would want to increase it by another 1.5 million dollars well i don't know i mean do you really think we need that would be three million do you really you don't have to tell me no you don't have to know how to say that no i think it's safer that way the other number you started to want to put arc a month do you want to say the $315,000 that you've had i mean i've used it because but we want to now designate it for this purpose i think no i think not right now and look yeah i think i think the first the first step is to go back to the bank and say if it's if it's one bite of the apple for the line of credit then we want a uh one year term loan not a line of credit we want a loan advantage you can't well one year could you kind of win the term well or two you have two years or whatever anything more than one year without bill but maybe we're all right let me just finish i mean you know it may be that we have to have a special time meeting and get voter approval for some of this what what i want to do is get to the point where the fool's calling up and saying where's the damn money the contractors are calling up and saying where's the damn money and we have to start telling them we don't have the money that that is not a good pay to operate right so you know we need to do as expeditiously as we can whatever we need to do to have that money available and if the magic number appears to be creeping up to three million i say we get another 1.5 million and if we don't need to spend it we don't spend it and yeah the other thing we have to think about in all of this which the original keeps reminding me she's absolutely right is we're responsible for 25 percent of this money you're spending where where's that money going to come right i'm hoping to stay yeah so okay i'm sorry but can't we just cancel that out can't you just close it you haven't borrowed any of the money i don't i don't and then you resubmit all that i'll ask questions yeah i mean these are all what they've done is they've incurred for us for our legal documents and all of that so you know i can go back and find out what our options are i'm not going to close out anything no no no no get the other one lined up and approved yeah i'll find something to add on or if we can but you know i'm i'm about ready to go borrow on this when i saw the payment bill come in and everything's better um well i i that's the other thing that grant net for the payment if it's not complete we can't submit it so then we don't get it and then we don't get it so then we have so now we're sitting there's a $245,000 bill that's what that extra so yes sorry i'm just gonna throw one thing here that doesn't really matter because i think you guys do the right thing but there is the hazard mitigation there is a different pool of money yeah so that is something that we can get we had this guy Tom here and all he wants to know is if you're gonna go back you're gonna rebuild the roads you're gonna make them better it's a build back better grant hazard mitigation it's all there so i mean there's a good chance we'll be compensated it's not even spending a little bit of stuff there's a whole other basket of money right no no no i understand that and they're also also uh you know there's been a lot of talk and and bob mentioned it tonight that these that these i keep thinking on this co-case but the 25% match oh might all of a sudden turn into a 10% match well that's a little difference that makes all the difference but my point is my point is we need to do the best we can do in a responsible manner that we can to make sure that we'll be able to meet our financial obligations and i think the answer is somehow whatever it is we need to raise money and if it's a matter of heaven forbid you know special town meeting bond i mean whatever it is we just have to do it and we should be doing it now not not doing it when the money's due because whatever it is it's going to take some time and i don't mind during i'm happy to go with you and meet with a bank if they want to meet with us or you know whatever they want we'll do it be honest with you i don't think that's where the sticking point is it's you know it's whether they are open to it or not open to it or what our options are it's not who shows up to no no no i understand but i think you know sometimes they like to look in the eye in my experience but whatever i mean it isn't like it isn't like we're asking the bond the bank to go on the hook for money that we don't expect and plan to get reimbursed for it's a cash flow timing issue and that generally is the kind of risk that banks are willing to take but you know they're they're uh i don't know how many of you watch the watch the nightly news i tend to watch it every night well now FEMA's out of money so what does that mean what does that mean in terms of us getting our money who the hell knows biden's biden's going for another what is it six billion or trillion i mean those when i get into those numbers might my eyes blaze over but it's a huge number i'm just gonna take them in positive here okay the two positive things are jerry today says that we are farther ahead than any other town and getting toward commerce so that is good the second thing is that this storm has been upgraded in FEMA's world from the category three to a category two which is hurricane between all of them that's how serious and bad it was the FEMA guys were here and no idea how bad it was they're they're overwhelmed too but that also means there's a better chance that we'll have we'll be 25% in that category last year it's more of a cash flow it's carrying everything the money it's not a matter of spending the money it's a matter of carrying right right and that's the whole thing and like i said i'm not concerned and i will talk to the bank tomorrow and i think it is back if i've gone this far with what's happened with the money that i've stole yeah you know that you know i can get us to that point again right it's a matter of after that like i have those big obligations that i mean i can answer the question and if there are contractors who are overcharging now during a time of an emergency which is really do we we may not use them in the future but is the board willing to come down on these guys at all and say send the bills back and say no no if this piece of equipment causes it causes x to run do not charge the town in which you live by the way this much more is the board willing to do something like that do you have it i mean i think that there's so at some point do you guys have to make a decision about that i the taxpayer both for federal taxes for bmn for a little i would like a dance not sound like me but i have my bills first maybe we should do that i don't have a sense i don't have a sense and the only detailed bills that i've looked at are the detailed bills that you're in the hand that i have tonight which aren't aren't all the bills yeah but it's for ones that are left are ones that are then the color bills that definitely say how many yards what came out of and what the cost was but i'm just saying what i don't have a sense of is to what extent we're paying some kind of pre premium charge because it's emergency work and because we didn't have the opportunity to put it out to bed and you know i don't have a sense of what that is and i i hope you guys do not i don't mind being part of some pushback and some of these characters but if they're taking advantage of us at a bad time and you're you can't you don't have to stop right there i mean you there's a lot of circumstances that you would say would be permanent um not a person wasn't done but what are you going to do uh figure out i understand it i don't understand it go ahead um it's like if you have got a piece of equipment they're charging you 300 bucks a day an hour and it's uh and it's running uh it's dependent on how many trucks you have you can say well get more trucks but in today's in today's society where there's not that many trucks out there so you want to do it stop work completely i mean that that was i get all those i get all those issues okay we were desperate to hire people we had roads that were closed you know i get all that but the question is did they truly gouge us or not in your opinion if they charge us if these if these bills are fair and those rates are reasonable then they are what they are but if they're charging 25 percent more because they know they had us over a barrel and didn't go out the bid then i push back right and i agree with you and and but i would say to what i said yes we had to have it done so in this case that i just gave you a trust we paid a premium because we wanted to get as much done as we had now for the person that the going rate is for something uh you know i don't i don't want to really single anybody out here tonight but that the going rates like 120 bucks an hour and the guy started in 2050 yeah maybe that's not okay okay well that's what i'm talking about that that happened i mean if if you know we had to pay a premium to get the trucks that we desperately needed or we had to pay a premium for a piece of equipment because they were going to give it to somebody else if we didn't pay it then there you go that's the we had to do that i agree with that and i don't know all of the counter arguments you know i mean i i can you know i can see it in my own mind but then you know people tell you you know it's like what do you want me to do it on it you can't get a truck we don't have any trucks right don't like it i get i get all that all i'm all i'm asking you to do is when we get these reconfigured bills just look them over and be able to say you know what we did pay maybe 10 percent more than we would have paid if we're going out the bit or 15 percent more whatever the number is can you get the bills to go yeah i can you go get them in there no i we can make those bills and we got them yeah that's all i'm suggesting but if it isn't worth if it isn't worth doing it isn't worth doing but i think we owe it to the taxpayers like sarah said i agree to uh to make sure we're not and and believe me as i always say in my business dealings i have a memory like an elephant if a couple of these characters have really excuse me screwed us we'll never work for the town as long as i'm here i'll tell you that they're not they tend to sometimes when i do it i tend to be a little chicken if you push back a little bit you'll get a little something off who knows i do have copies i think of all the bills we're already that's what fine you can come in and look at it any day of the week okay i don't think it should be just one person i think it should be there and yeah it should be it should be the three of you to to start with because you guys who have the best idea of what the yeah i mean i can look at those bills and i don't know if they're fair or not what are you doing on your timing steve do you feel like you're going to be putting in more hours than you in the city so i don't want to go i mean it's going to be way a lot as far as this year goes because of having to redo this thing and we're going to have to redo it and say okay this is emergency work that we need to have safety work that we need to get down out of emergency work but safety work that we need to get down on these roads and it's every road that we look at every road and the construction season is closing in back right so that needs to go out we just need to redo it how we're going to put that out of it okay okay good so i think it's it's after seven o'clock now and we're we're yeah when can i get it together with you because that's one of the first steps before we get the bills we need to make sure and i don't mind do it i don't mind get them to the contractor or talk to the contractor yeah so we do it tomorrow or we can do it um let's see we can do it tomorrow morning we'd like to do it tomorrow morning i don't know what time you know well we do that did you guys ask to go back for a certain amount of money have you guys been thinking about your number three million find out what we can do what our options are should we make a motion that we're um um let's wait till one point to see what the render comes back with but i would tentatively give them a number of another one for you know another no i mean i just know that we made a motion for the first one but let's talk about it i think we're going to notice that we're new yet no i'm not a good point in person you said towards me oh towards me um okay let me look at my schedule because i think i've got a big list of duty so let me check it out and i'll check it out and just get with me more work out something over the next couple of days what everybody said everybody said yeah i think i'll just okay yeah i can do with early afternoon 11 12 whatever tomorrow all right let's let's just plan on 12 okay i'll just meet you right here then yeah all right good okay so just to summarize where we are the renders the render is going to go out and see what the bank can do um if that can't work then we need to see what other options we have i mean uh you know we can have a special found meeting if we need to have one we can do whatever we need to go um but let's hope that they're right yeah i'm going to see about changing the line i'm going to see about another one year loan however you know we'll have to take you know try the however we can do that right right right right number two um just let me finish there sure number two is we're going to do what i'm calling safety work only and or and this is the tricky part whatever we need to do to be able to close out some of these projects so if there's some little bit of work that needs to be done before you can close it out which you don't seem to think the rest team i mean we can close my knowledge but at least they have called the emergency phase two new project right now that they were probably full being done today they're not done today they'll be done tomorrow and they're done yeah that means all done okay and there's no more work okay but we meaning the town have more work to do yes a lot more work so in our work our regular daily work we need to assess what realistically we can accomplish between now and snow time and if there's a shortfall where we don't really think we can do that then i think we need to hire help i don't think we have any choice but we we go out and we're going to decide yes if your end is got charge yeah you're gonna have a meeting to come back and and hash this over i think we may need to yeah we may need to i mean if the bank says you know no problem you can have the money then then i don't think there's any any emergency but if they say well you know if you're going to do this you need to do it now who knows what they're going to say right but we can have we can have special meetings we've done it before and we can we can do it again i just want to be sure that as much as we can the roads are safe for winter time and i know that's a huge challenge well in actuality we're better off hiring and i'm trying to use our own hope for it because we'll get paid on because we won't get reimbursed for our own hope to be doing the work and that's it's only perfect right so that's why if we're going to do it you really do want to go out to bed right but let's see what let's see what the bank has to say first and make sure we have some way to get the money or some kind of plan how we're going to get the money can i ask a question yes you did it's just part of my ignorance so the vermont bond bank this one you can't talk about that vermont bond bank you can only go out to two times a year and you have to apply in advance and they only issue the money like this time of year and that time of year um so that's why you're better off going through because because you know that they uh yeah they're they're reaching out to this now yeah i thought that but you gotta apply to it and it won't come through as quick as this money will if the bank can do anything we're better off with the bank right and yeah that's you know if if some of these other programs come through and and we get the money and we can start to get some of the money from fema yeah we may not need to borrow all this money but i think we need to be ready to borrow when we have to write out that it's almost nine hundred thousand dollar check to the school next month we're going to have that money ready to go oh just just for a personal note like the first payment of the taxes that you september 20th yes have a lot of people paid that already they've been a lot of people have been coming so we've been picking up that money there but i'm being very cautious because i want to be able to pay the school they do share so that's where and the other concern i mean i have three concerns right now the school the fire truck and the um and the paving project we get a loan but if i had that we can but it would have to have a special family highway equipment we can buy with select board approval but fire department equipment we have to have a town vote and we were i mean if the flood didn't happen it was no issue so you know this is just unexpected business right serious unexpected business and the other thing the other thing that i i worry about is that 25 percent math okay let's not worry about that right now okay i don't know i understand okay so we threw with the highway for this evening everybody knows what their mission is and if we need to have a special meeting we'll have one okay special regular meeting right special regular meeting uh darinda treasurer if you have any if you have any energy left so the only thing i wanted to bring up was i finally was able to touch base with rb technology should you have questions or refurbishment equipment and all of that stuff he said that they've been using it for a while it's not like a piece of equipment somebody's come back and they refurbish it's some usually a case where somebody's ordered a server and um didn't take it for whatever reason and then they have to send it back to the factory to build it to your specifications and that's what makes it really good um i talked to him about our other issues that we had a computer sitting in the corner now for many many months and they came and installed that um today yeah as a matter of fact um the other thing was i told them the emails were very important that we needed to get moving on that so i haven't seen the ticket come through on that but my suggestion is the service not broke let's put a hold on it yeah well at least at least a short-term hold and i agree with that and uh the other thing the other thing that i think we should look into is back when we were talking about ordering the server in the spring i asked the question about you know what about not having a server and and going to the cloud and he said well you know you really need a new server right now of course that was six months ago uh and the server is still working you know there isn't time to really do with that i think before we buy any server at all we need to re-ask that question because uh a couple of entities that i've been involved in they no longer have servers everything is in the cloud and somebody else is responsible for the hardware and yeah you pay you pay a fee for that but uh it takes that off our uh so i'm going to tell them that the server is on hold but definitely we still want to do something with the email correct okay what email um and i have no other financial okay thank you me wrote issues correspondence sarah uh well i think we guys um not the emails from uh shelly who said uh this is from august 15th the night of the meeting i was disappointed the follow-up discussion on need road this has been a problem for a year with no positive outcomes since i walked this road myself with grandchildren and other neighbors also bought this fellow from it is concerned about falls even though i set myself a few do you stop me for this at war on multiple occasions i have walked the whole road there has been large branches play the barricade slow down slow down slow down i didn't forward these emails here okay on multiple occasions i have walked the whole road there has been large branches placed the barricades so i had to renew them to continue our mark three have also been placed in the road and i almost fell trying to walk over it with my grandson now there is a complete barricaded black carpet post although the town does not maintain this section unless i misunderstand the clockwork guidelines this should not be allowed this class 4 road goes straight to the interstate state right away it should not be watched anyway i appreciate your input on this matter i understand the flood happened it is taking repressants but this matter should have been addressed a long time before the flood i do not understand why the road has to be fixed before addresses items put in the roadway not in the town's right away the actual roadway and then edwin is here we're leaving middle sex left for development one was that at 756 yeah and one was that at 855 the same night good evening middle sex left for there was an accusation made by Samantha Bowman during the general and other business portion of tonight's left word meaning that her neighbors were meeting the road my husband and i were very full attendance and wanted to clarify the accusations made my husband's extra you just look at this okay a little bit i'm just fine it's been a long day i know it's been a long day for all of us but i also got things you also got these so yeah okay so i'm just reading you're asking to read if you don't need me to read them out sorry yeah yeah i read it yeah my husband's act friendship i live in 58 knee brods samantha list passes in 33 knee brods she and her boyfriend steve jennison her mother shelly disjarded for the previous email made an accusation that individual for putting rocks and debris both three to five feet into the road samantha reminded the select board about her request to have the town center neighbors a letter asking them to discontinue impeding the road we believe we are those neighbors in question and would like the opportunity to clarify the situation normally we would not concern the select board with a neighbor issue like this but we believe you deserve to know the extent of the situation we also will not sit quietly while being implicated in a lot of attached images showing samantha and steve placing large rocks on mean road directly in front of our residents using their blue toy or the pickup and shelly's green shelly's green john deere tractor the camera taking these pictures was situated about 10 feet on the edge of the property this occurred on may 21st and 28th of this year we are sick to hear our neighbor implicate us in an activity that we did not do we are working with our attorney to resolve whatever civil issues span that has with us that thus far have not been successful we fully support the select board's decision to notify all meat road residents of regulations and guidelines concerning the maintenance of class war section meat road thank you eveline intact and that's the correspondence okay so thanks sir thank you so where we were on this yes hi okay this is shelly i wrote the first letter that's all i've done lately is study the right of way the roads the legislative our policy um sarah has a wonderful handout that says the public right away and you uh which talks about the road in front of your house or along your driveway there's probably a public highway laid out by a formal process in the select board years ago but um bottom line from the pin on your property the right of way is usually three rods 49 and a half feet wide which includes so the town or the power company cut down trees smooth out curves and telephone lines um the town does ever write the reroute water from a natural stream cannot raise the roadbed so it prevents the neighbor and have the water natural flow going to somebody else's property um it's a wonderful handout that sarah has uh but then the v-trand the same thing it's like 20 i think it's 24.9 feet um from to the center of the road doesn't mean that each owner owns the other owners right away um they're i i just that's all i've done is study of this and the the main thing is that there was a court hearing on it saying that although there's limitation on landowner owner liability when it is a right away of the town not for people to vandalize or impede on somebody else's property that the fact that the owner has made land available for consideration for recreational uses shall not be construed to limit the property right of the owner now i've walked down this road um i did help samantha and i'm talking as a resident not as a lister right now but i worked for the government for 35 years so i believe in the law and 24 or 25 whatever it is 25 foot from the center of the road um the town has access on your right away it's still your property but the town has an easement for repairs so you can put things along there as long as it's not blocking the town from doing their job what my feeling is you cannot put things into the road which is being done if you look at the the validated pin it's showing that the road is being shifted and that's one big issue but the other issue is i do walk down that road i hot on that road and i bring my grandkids down that road and i'm walking over trees that are put in place you cannot go down the class four and branches and now it's totally blocked off so you can't go down because it's right now it's a class four right to the interstate and i bring my grandkids down they can see turkeys and veers or whatever now it's totally blocked off and put branches on each side i think that people just get out and understand what what the right away and what the road is you can't change the alteration of the road because you want to i i'm very strong about the law is going to be for everybody not just one and just not because it doesn't want to be addressed and my biggest thing here is it says um the select board will hold the mirror and i'll hold the hearings and resolve disputes on the bottom line because so photos and photos and photos but things can't be put in the actual road the right away is one thing i don't i think there's no dispute there but not in the actual road i think you guys do a great job but i think this has gone over for like a year now with no no results and it's just it's very i'm disturbing that what's going on here thank you i'd like to i know everyone you want to speak this just hold on one second okay so what we were trying to do here was determine first of all where the road is okay and we have not we have not done that and that is to hold up somehow and i'm going to recommend to the select board tonight but whether whether you have to hire a surveyor or whatever we have to do we determine where the i went down there i can't tell where the road is or where it was okay wait a minute stop let me finish okay we need to know where the road is once we know where the road is then there are two issues there is the right of way which is the three yard you were talking about three rods excuse me not three yards three rods okay which they extend and often does extend on to residents private property okay but there's then the passable roadway itself which is a narrower thing and i don't know what is there a 22 feet 22 feet so you know we got two different situations we got the right of way and we got the and we've got the road itself we have a highway ordinance which spells out very clearly what residents are able to do in roads and mostly it says you can't change upgrade repeat or do anything to the road without prior approval of the select board so whatever's going on down there if it's happening in the roadway or blocking off the roadway or the right of way i think no not the right no not the right way well wasn't there the reference to the class 4 the class 4 is a road right so there's a road to blockage at the road yeah that's a blockage right okay same so the 22 foot wide road right yes so my recommendation is and we'll we'll see what the select board has to say has to say tonight but somehow we need to put an end to this and the only way to start putting an end to this is to determine where the road is and markets everybody knows where it is and then take it from there and whether whether it's you folks or or you folks or whoever it is if you continue or do violate the town highway ordinance then we will have to act can i can i speak one more time Peter hold on when shelly everyone wanted to speak yeah thank you um so i appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you all because as shelly said we completely agree this should not be a town issue we should not be taking up your time we should be able to solve a civil issue um as you as shelly had mentioned this has been similar these and similar issues have been coming up for over a past year now and we myself my husband Zach friend and i have tried relentlessly to resolve them we reached out or we reached out early on to the select board and the select board basically ignored us and said that this wasn't an issue for the town so we said okay we're going to try it on our own we secured an attorney who was trying to help out and help us figure this out he reached out to Sam we heard no response back so we reached out to the middle sex uh excuse me the popular community justice center to reach out again to try to work this out through a community justice initiative we received no response um so we were basically at a loss um and so now i will mention as um uh she read in our um sarah excuse me sarah read in my email that referenced our attorney i will not comment tonight on active litigation so that's just out there i also will not comment and engage in the he said she said i can tell you right now a lot of what is being bandied about right now it's completely false and we welcome all of you to come down me road and take a look for yourself and see what's really going on as we said we would have looked we would have looked at from the beginning and unfortunately it is come to this and i am devastated as you can see that this is happening my professional career is at stake or something like this i am a public servant for the city popular and trust in the community resides in trust in me if people don't trust what i have to say and believe me then i don't have a job so it is extremely important to me that you hear this and that i implore you to have an open mind at the situation thank you thank you state leaders that are ready to ask a bigger question directly well ask the board but yeah so last fall we reached out and over the last year we reached out to Vic directly asking whether or not Evelyn Prim exact french had permission to make alterations to the roadway which mind you the response was no and each time they did so they were breaking the law that's fact can't argue that okay so if you want to talk facts willing to do it with you all night long but it's factual every single time that you made an illegal alteration to the road or your husband did you were breaking the law every time you altered the course and flow of the roadway you were breaking Vermont state legislation okay every time you did that without permission there's no denying that there's nothing that you can say or do to prove factually otherwise period so you can say this is a devastating travesty all you want but the facts are the facts the end of the day is there like a process that could involve mediation in tangent to the surveying issue where it could go into does the town have any kind of precedent no we really don't we really don't I mean again I think you know we've heard a lot of allegations from from both sides I'm going down there and look at the situation down there I know Victor has I think others have Eric Eric's been down there others have as well we need to determine and and there are likely to be varying opinions on on where the road actually is but before we can know what's going on down there we've got to know where the road is yeah Victor was it the second precedent near McCulloch hill road there was a discussion between myself and Pat Freeman where the center of the road would get you said state statue yeah the center of the road is where the center of the road is right now in other words you would split the looking at the road to see what you see for the right away I mean not the right way the road travel part yeah divide that half the middle of it so here's the problem okay the allegations are the general roads going to go so to say to go down there now and say well the road is where the road is I'm not sure is a fair resolution of this I think don't you would get substantial objective that so that's I agree with you if it's the road that's been there for a long time and the ditches are clear and you know where the road is the road is where the road is I don't know what went on down there I don't know what went on well it's very difficult to tell where the where the road wasn't where the road is my view I was down I mean I was down there this spring but she doesn't see him have her her pins for her for her property her property would be on the 25 24 foot 9 inch line I would think point well it depends on what the deed says my my deed says my property goes I mean the right-of-way extends onto my property yeah yeah but but but not the roadway itself it's Samantha so a couple things everything I've come to you about is nothing personal nothing at all I'm not bringing up any personal issues it actually doesn't even pertain to any of you so you don't need to hear it this is the road and and this is where I need to come to the select board because it's impacting the actual road it's a town road I've contacted attorneys I contacted the police everyone directs me to you so I'm only coming to you with an issue for the select board my property has been surveyed I have pins so there's two pins if you want to know where the road is I mean you could you could hire a surveyor I already have so there's already two pins where you can find the center of the road well then our survey should be very simple to accomplish but I feel like we need to do this I think all this what I think the whole board I think the whole board should go down there yeah we have gone down to them we're visiting Evelyn tomorrow can I have a suggestion as well that in visiting last week and actually seeing the which I believe Shelley is what you're talking about when you take your kids down for a walk I believe that the board should turn that into a trail because that is not a class four road that is like a trail in the woods and no car is driving down there to the interstate so that piece up until the river they're not even a bridge to go across the bridge is gone so you can't even get to this road so my suggestion would be that at some point we turn that section into a trail that is class four figure out what it is because it's not even clear what what part of that is the class four turn into a trail so it's still town owned but it's not anything that we have to maintain anymore and then we only deal with the class four that goes up to the river that basically that posts the ends the road that would be my suggestion I think that's fine but I think I think right now the situation in hand is to determine where the road is on the travel portion of the road and if we turn it if it's appropriate to turn it into a trail down the road we can certainly look at that I would just ask that well especially as somebody new on the board that the he you know the two different opposing opinions and and basis of what is fact is there a way that we can just table that and start fresh the survey the decisions made no more emails no more back and forth that once the survey is done the select board will make the decision and then it's that there's no more rehashing of history I don't disagree with that I mean once we know where the road is far our town highway ordinance is clear yeah and I know you've all reviewed the town highway work so you know the ability to upgrade the road change the road change the way the drainage comes off the road any of that cannot be done without select for approval and up until this point in time I don't believe there's ever been select for approval maybe there was many years ago but not in recent times and then we would limit discussion moving forward right yes okay I would and I don't know how we can get a get a surveyor out there but I would hope we could get somebody out there in the next 30 days if before you know before the town first cost and something like that I guess one of the questions I have is the dispute is for where the pens are today I mean we we've gone down and like Liz said we met with you folks last week you showed us where the pens were yes yes we do so that was my first question because before the town could cost if there was agreement where the pens were probably the property line pens are not marking the center of the road we need to know where the center of the road is right if there was no dispute from the pens then we could establish where the center of the road is we know what that measurement is and if they didn't dispute pen location then that's easy to define the only thing the only thing I would tell I appreciate what you're saying but depending on what the language in the need is their land may come to the edge of the right of way or not I mean my land definitely extends into the right of way so anyone yes so the surveying math and the survey so it's chase and chase that I've used I'm actually reserving because pens have come up missing but the pins they're placing they're 24.9 feet from the center of the road so that's work that they've done and you can contact them to get whatever research they've had I find it crazy for the town to pay for a surveyor when I already have but yeah and we'll reach out we'll reach out to chase and chase and see what they have if they if they are confident where the where the center of the road is maybe we can accept their work I don't know I think you might want to get a second opinion but let's let's let's take a one let's take a one step at a time what's your what you're saying Peter though is you're there deep somebody's deep might read that they own it from the center of the road yep and and the pins that you've got there are your property right but that isn't saying it's the center of the road that's all I'm saying it's it's 24 foot right nine inches to the center right is that what you're saying yes oh okay I want to I want to know where the road really is where the road legally exists and if there's no way to determine it there's no way to determine but I have to believe the rest and then we have to follow up with the letter to all parties on the road that remind them that no change is going to be made to the road everybody's going to get another another copy of the highway ordinance and say here's the process if you choose to change the road and if you do change the road not in compliance with the highway ordinance your risk yeah so I just want to clarify a couple of things one is every property owner opens to the center yeah period that's what you have is an easement the pound has an easement that is 49.5 someone owns the land you have otherwise if you discontinue the road you have a bunch of band-aids just to we all own to the center we just have a piece the other thing is I don't think we have it but I don't think we're encouraged we were going to think we're encouraged in the last four roads in the trail of faults between last things I'm sorry I just want to make sure about that finally I said I said at the town clerk you're noting the research that's gone through this I mean we had the historical society and this is not an easy survey this is not and this is this is really costly so if you're going out and getting another one I mean I think there are some surveyors who'd rather wouldn't do it right have you recorded that survey map yet no no I haven't finished because I want to meet with that one okay but if you recorded the survey map that it becomes a legal document yeah everybody can have access yeah I kind of do that if you want to say we have access I from chase and chase surveyors the survey that was done in 2015 for 33 euro we are perfect for my husband I work perfectly happy with that survey that was done relatively recently um we are you 33 you know what we used to be 33 it's funny actually our the D to our house says 33 but it's 58 now and that property is now 33 yeah it's like is that the survey that you're talking about correct yeah so you're in agreement with the survey that chase and chase did for their property in 2015 we're there correct not the most recent we haven't seen the most recent one so I can't tell you what that was but we're the one that was done in 2015 is all of them we are perfectly happy with that one so that one was wrong so dev drachenberg on the property at that point was 33 need road and there's there's a passage that goes onto my property you guys probably remember it goes around so the pin is on this side so chase and chase were incorrect and when I purchased the property I reached out to them asking them about that pin so the map that I showed you when you guys came out it was corrected I think in 2018 where it shows that they made a mistake because they could literally come out and see the bridge in the stream it's still there to show where the where the bridge was where the center of the road was so they corrected it that was wrong so the most recent survey was in 2018 so that you're good then you're discussing yeah but you are not in agreement with to be okay here's what I would suggest here's what I would suggest let's get if you're willing to share the surveys with us before we go any further let's look at the surveys the two surveys and we can take testimony about who says what's correct and who says what is incorrect I'm not interested in current a lot of expense of the town if you guys can agree where the road is then we're off to the races if you can't agree we'll have to figure out what we do yes a couple things one I'm going to strongly protest that the town ignores and not send out a letter immediately for people to assist season assist making illegal alterations to the road without permission because while you're having your conversation another I don't know however indefinite amount of time is going to persist where they continue doing these things on top of that I would like please stop okay number one I think we can do this very quickly number two everybody can look at that class four road policy or the highway ordinance that's what the rules are in terms of determining who's violating the rules until we know where the road is we can't tell who's violating the rules I can't tell you say they say something else I don't know what if they what if they violate the rules we don't know but we don't have a police department here I don't know what what would we do if somebody is violating here's my response to the board on that I would like the site come on legislation chapter 19 vsa subsection 952 the town shall properly maintain the grain the dish and the water forced to keep it in good and sufficient with care that is your legal obligation as as as the board so I'm not going to settle with well we just don't know so we're not going to do our job I don't think that's what those were saying well no I wasn't I was saying if someone if someone breaks the rules I'm not saying you're right we it's not that they're just breaking the rules it's that each time they're breaking the town rules they're breaking from our state legislation they're actually breaking the law and is the town the legal obligation to do something about that according to the Vermont state police how do we know that what you're saying is true we look at the legislation for yourself no I understand the legislation but if we don't know where the road is we can go down there and you could say they did this there and they did there and did you know you were the bridges and what what guys okay I know he's got his hand up fall pira just just so everybody is aware the road form and knowledge 33 is actually referencing the town highway number as far as our roads they all have a an individual number notch road just happens to be 33 so any property the prior to E911 and a lot of times would have been referenced as number 33 Notch Road my property was at one point as well I've actually still got property on the old class 4 section headed to Colby's that's still 33 Notch Road so just be aware that that the reference of 33 Notch Road is not an actual address it's it's town highway number 33 but thank you Paul all I'm saying guys is before we can determine who did what what's legal what's illegal whatever we've got to agree on where the road is and if you guys can agree where the road is then we can take whatever action we can take yes I don't think it's a matter of us agreeing where the road is I think it's the facts so I've hired a surveyor I didn't like hire a friend you know they've done the research so I think the best bet would be to contact them if you guys want to see the research yourself you're welcome to but this isn't a friend this isn't my opinion this is a professional surveyor that I've hired who have placed these pens here no we understand that I understand that another point when you were talking about further down in trails so I'm not super familiar with trails in general but if that were a trail should that should trails be blocked off no no but I'm just saying that that then then the responsibility for you know like we're not going to go out and ditch that so we can get across right right and that's not what's being asked it's being asked to not block it well I'm just going to say one more thing we need to finish this for tonight and I know you Shelley you want to speak get us that get us that 2018 survey you have not seen the 2018 survey once it's here we will let you know it's here you can come down and look at it and see what you what you think and if you guys can agree where the road is then we'll know what the next step is and I think we can do that quickly we can't do it as quickly as if we we have to go out and and get a survey and I would hope we wouldn't have to because it's going to be expensive but if you're willing to share that survey chase and chase is certainly a reputable license real deal survey or it's not somebody who crawled out of the woods one day and said they wanted to do a survey so I think whatever whatever they have done would be very incredible information but I haven't seen it yet and uh I like yes to make it a legal document really should be reported to them with landmarks otherwise it doesn't have any cuts so are you guys willing to have that survey recorded in the land record not yet because I'm in the process of the 2015 is the last survey but like I said there's missing pins so now I'm having a survey again so I'm in the process of having some surveyors come out again and paying them and I'm going to wait until they finish so don't you don't you have the 2018 yeah and I and I showed Liz and Randy when they came out that survey but it's wrong she thinks it's wrong it's in 2018 no it's missing pins it's missing pins so there's our property is missing pins yes so but do the pins the the pins show that show on the survey map no yes yes but they're not pins regarding the road so these are different print pins on the property so that are missing so I but you said the survey indicated where the road was yes those pins aren't missing and the second section that is in question yes the pins that we have I mean I'll show that you know you've got to do whatever you're comfortable doing but to move this process along I would suggest record the 2018 survey if you come back with something else that needs to be subsequent to that you can always have that recorded is it on my line is it on my line you know no it's a paper uh yeah that won't work yeah hopefully I'm in a chilly so where do they go to get her transferred to my line yeah see you you just have to pay more but it like I said in the process of having another survey so that's why I'm waiting so I'm not paying to do the 2018 and then the two and then the year when do they expect to be able to do that I don't know but I can show you the 2018 one like I can send you that I don't even think that the original one from deb drakenberg is my life that's not even my life so the one they'd seen they contacted the surveyors to get that's not a mile effect the law changed but in fact we're between old right now some new sort of maps now by states that have to be on my work yeah so but I still have a map so if you want to see that we can accept it won't be recorded but we can accept that survey map so we can look at it correct you're going to get it you're going to end up in a lawsuit if I would do something that's little black sorry speaking as a town clerk no no no I understand I understand do we have any idea what the cost is to have it transferred on to my law oh no I would call Jason Jason asked how much would it cost to transfer that map on the my law and it's only $500 to report go ahead shella the one thing I was going to add because I was listening to what lid said which is a good point is if someone doesn't follow because this seems to happen quite often on the road is that I would almost think that what you would do is if the person gets a fine it doesn't pay as you put a lien on the property and then they'll pay the town I mean it's gotta end yeah I agree I agree I didn't understand that but the the process is and I I've got a double check this too but I believe having looked at this in the past we issue a ticket somebody violates violates our town ordinance we issue a ticket and then it goes through the state process if the ticket is subsequently not paid then it becomes a lien against the land which it would stay until they would sell the property they pay or they pay yeah it's not like okay so lands going to be taken I'm sorry I mean we're not going to go down there and beat somebody over the head but is there a chance that we could perhaps not that I want to take the whole select board's time that we could videotape current they don't have videotapes but but it's something that would be non-partial part of something that would be independently viewed because it's still even with both videotapes and I don't say anybody's it's just with two people coming at us which that I'm telling the truth and I'm telling the truth that is there any way that we can just go down versus having one landowner make an accusation and then we still don't know what's the truth the problem where it is that I keep getting back to is we don't know where the road but you could tell if the road had been manipulated in a way that would be considered a violation whatever the road may be currently maybe maybe we could but because when I was down there it was very difficult yeah you can't tell you can't tell it just looks like a road and it looks like I mean the road to nowhere essentially exactly it's a little in a field yeah it's the field right so in front of your house no further down oh that that's what we need to turn into a trail anyway that's not even a road but I'm saying that the part that they're saying is being manipulated that would result in somebody getting a violation it's I don't know obviously because there's multiple locations if that's what you're getting at Bridget there's one at the furthest end where the field is that's barricaded and then there's one of five where the two properties where the houses actually sit where the driveway jets off and the bridge about where the bridge used to be so there's two different locations or a couple different locations that are that are being brought well I was just thinking that Sam is operating on the 2015 and I mean if Evelyn's on 2015 and Sam's on 218 and Evelyn hasn't seen 218 so I just it's just so mushy I'm just suggesting as a first step that first of all I think all of us need to go down there again at some point in time soon but before I go back down there I would like to see the 2018 survey and impossible with 2015 survey so I can see what the difference is between that but sometimes and if you guys are willing to share those whether they're turned into legal documents or not I would suggest you get them here ASAP so that we can we can as a group review them and then figure out what the next step is is anybody got is anybody in where your houses are where your house is to the bridge that portion of you travel that shelly travels with your kids is there any but violation there today is there anything that the road's been ripped off or converted where about where you're talking you're coming off you're talking off the nearest corner up there up to where the bridge was yes I mean when I first came to you guys there was a speed bump in the road well no but I mean today I'm not talking to the road that's not the roadway that's the side of the road so if you look at you're going by the pins from the survey which the pins are physically there you can see them the rocks that they've placed in the road are in the roadway line around the side I still was under the impression I don't want to get labor this because it's getting late but I still was under the impression that anything even in the town right of way needs permission no just the roadway no just the roadway okay yeah welcome to come on down take a look after this and see for yourself if there's anything in the way we would love it if you all come down anytime well I would suggest because we already met with those two and we're meeting tomorrow okay I'm going to take it again Randy it's yours okay so can we thanks guys I'm sorry about this this we have had over the years very few things like this we've had to try and deal with and this is a good one so anyway I just feel that it should be right on both sides I think I'm just legally saying it should be the same for everybody not just a select few you know I appreciate it okay so I am declaring the select board meeting adjourned we'll see you thank you