 Welcome once again to the breakfast on plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning is going to be talking about the young Nigerians that might be dealing with mental health challenges UNICEF has of course stated that one in six Nigerians may be depressed It says one in six Nigerians between the ages of 15 and 24 and also says 72 percent Nigerians and more or rather two percent of Nigerian youth show more concern Than youth in other parts of the world. Let's begin this morning with a psychologist Benedict Samar. Good morning Thanks for joining us Benedict. All right. Good morning. Thank you. I'm glad to be heard I'm a clinical psychologist and And then if I could you know why I specialize in channel of the holy sense mental health services and practice then What is depression first of all like to talk about and what the question is Okay depression is Assistant Hold on. Hold on Benedict. All right Okay, so yes, let's let's let's lead, you know the conversation So so let's so first of all get you to speak on Statistics like these you're right one in six Nigerian children being depressed Would you say that it's a fact? You know, or maybe it's even worse than that Okay From our own Daily experiences as a professional refer back is I would say it's even worse Okay, that that seems to be on that seems to underestimate The number of figures or figures that we have So it's actually more than that. It's more than that. It's in selling because we have The referrals on the delivery is it's really really alarming. Um, children between the age of age and above, you know, not only saying so it's more than that And what are what are the most common? Cases that you've had to deal with because I think it's also great that we understand what exactly You know, the exact mental health challenges that you know, that we're talking about here Some people are dealing with anxiety, which of course the reporters also stated some people are dealing with depression Some people of course, I you know really just mentally, you know Challenged, you know on a level. So what is the most common? You know challenge that you've had to deal with with these young Nigerians Okay I would say I bet with substance use and substance abuse more to be sincere over the course of practice young Nigerians Most non-nigerians or most referrals that we've had have had issues to do with substance use even more than depressions but you know, but an interesting fact is that Majority of of substance abuse and substance use cases also result into depression Thank you Okay, so let's also look at the fact that I mean in the Nigerian context according to those statistics that's been put out by units of One out of six children You know is depressed now the Constitution would say that between the ages of You know one or you want to talk about at what point a child develops So we're looking at let's say one two three to about 18 the level of defendants is still very high even at 25 So what could be responsible for you know depression in children? Why are they depressed? Exactly, okay Good enough. That's what we call an early onset experience in depression or definitely or generally in mental health cases So that means as Was the minimum age Of discovery and research says three years So as earlier as three years you can begin to discover and diagnose Depressions in children you can begin to see the symptoms Even if you can't diagnose or you can see the symptoms now what what are the great factors in children? Even though they are dependent what that is what we call a family history So either is a family history of depression in the family in the lineage Okay, either by genities By from father from mother. So the child is likely to have Depression another one is you know by marital distress researchers over the years have confirmed that Children in a conflicted family in a conflicted home Okay, then they are vulnerable to depression So we can then see that most of these things is not just And what the the children actually cause it's just as a result of circumstances surrounding the children Um, are there um symptoms are there things that you know a parent may spot You know that we may be able to look at and and you know spots, you know signs of depression in a young Nigerian Exactly. Okay. Thank you. So, uh, let me just mention quickly that there is difference between depression and sadness Okay, generally, you know every child sometimes we face that Feel emotionally down However, when these symptoms i'm going to mention persist and continues for a minimum of two weeks What is symptoms of sadness when the sadness continues for a minimum of two weeks? Then you may need to to seek Professional help for depression. What are these symptoms? Okay, one of them is, you know persistent or continued loss of interest in activities Now for instance, what are the activities should show activities? The child has lost I mean has lost interest in going to school lost interest in in anything school world Lost interest in play activities that he used to enjoy before Persistence, you know, I'm feeling of guilt Crying spell low energy Should show withdrawal when a child consistently refers to be by himself. He doesn't enjoy should show Interaction again. He wants to always be by himself play with himself. He just withdraw He just enjoys isolation That is one of the symptoms of Of depression Then another one is symptoms or feelings of hopelessness the child just feels hopeless Just feels worthless, you know crying spell and the most important one Suicide ideation when a child continuously talks about Suicide Okay, or or tells you he feels like ending it. He feels like taking his life. I'm tired of lying You know, I'm tired of this environment. He has lost interest in food always eating excessively. These are Some point out that parents may need to seek professional help. Thank you All right. So but looking at The reports from UNICEF they say the findings from the survey show that young Nigerian shows 72% more concern than used from other countries in the area of finances Young Nigerian show a high level of concern with 72 I mean 74 percent of females as this is of males worried. They don't have enough money for food So it still brings me back to I mean the question of the fact that this the dependency is I I mean at age 18 at age You know One two three four 18 24 25 a lot of people are still living with their parents and the idea for shows that You know the responsibility of thinking about food clothes and shelter and what have you it's been Taking care of so why start the problem? Okay, good, you know the first thing I talked about then I talked about the fact that There are some that the parents I mean children are not responsible of actually In in the essence of their family history of depressions and their family conflict and and child abuse, however Even you know, who actually gave out another report statistic that you know people from developing nations Have vulnerable to depressions Developing nations so when it so that is it that was a general report was a general article So when they say people including children from developing nations now, what what do we experience in developing nations? You have people with low economic status Okay, low financial capability to take care of themselves And like you know when when I try to know is that oh I have two or three of my peers in class I know what they eat they eat some kind of food You know some kind of meat and they don't see that Mr. Benedict can hear us It seemed to have lost our clinical psychologist there, but it's a very important conversation And I think you know some of the you know the biggest points for me would be you know being able to spot it You know and also trying to figure out why the statistics are so high in Nigeria Why are young Nigerians under so much pressure? Is it because of you know the way the country currently is or is it really just because of the You know the Nigerian mentality of making it big and and and you know being so You know self sustainable Those are you know for me some of the big things and We don't have a big enough conversation on mental health in Nigeria You know and I will repeatedly say that a lot of people only talk about mental health when you are naked on the streets But I'm sure there's a lot of Nigerians who are in your office space today who are in the hospitals Who are in the bank or in the in the market places and everywhere that you go Who are probably even driving ubers or driving their cars on the streets that have mental health challenges that aren't talked about enough These things all come from somewhere There's a there's a girl that I that I see along Somewhere where I live in lekkie phase one and I slowly watched her you know her Mental health degenerating to you know until you go to the stage where she is now You know scantily dressed walking on the streets by 6 a.m. In the morning But I watched it play out, you know from day one when she's really just walking on the road talking to herself until you go to the stage We don't have you know a big enough conversation with mental health I also feel like Nigerian workspaces don't recognize Mental health, you know enough They don't create any conversation on mental health. They don't create any Space, you know where staff, you know and the the mental health of staff is you know talked about always taking care of There's no leverage. There's no, you know little take a couple of days off You know it's because you're not feeling you know so well There is you know none of those things come up, you know And so you know you see staff continue to work day in day out regardless of how they feel mentally I'm not just physically now People don't need to be bedridden before you know that they're challenged or they need a couple of days off and things like that And also Why is a 16-year-old Nigerian a 14-year-old Nigerian feeling under pressure to buy bends Filling under pressure to you know to build a house or feeling under pressure to Have you know millions of Nair and his account these are some of the things that I believe have created Some of these statistics one in six is really not good Yeah, it's really not good and and for me The major concern here is I mean if you look at some of the the issues that they have really mentioned in that survey You talk about issue of food, which is actually, you know, a basic thing and that's why you know for me I'm looking at the fact that Food, you know as an adult or I mean a growing child You get to that point where there are things that are just basic and to some point you have you know The support system or first of all you're talking about the family and that would be the responsibility of the family to cater for your basic needs I mean food Shelter and clothing and then of course afterwards education can actually, you know be the next thing if you look at the Abraham Maslow, you know theory of needs or that hierarchy of needs You feel that you must meet basic before you get to another point So I'm just saying could it also be that there's a failure, you know at the end of the day that families No longer have what it takes, you know to fend for this children And that's why, you know, it has become an issue He also mentioned the fact that I mean the report also mentioned the fact that there's You know need to succeed when you you compare yourself With your counterparts outside of the country So it brings us back to the fact that yes, you're talking about the 16 year old Wanting to have a bends and what have you and all of all of that but you know the issue of mental health is Like you have mentioned earlier Ron is a case where we don't pay attention to and that's for some S Then a lot of people are afraid of the stigma that it comes with and then because people really think that when you go to see You know a doctor or a psychologist to talk about they probably think you're going crazy You're going not and no one wants to you know being that space where they think that oh I'm depressed. I'm having mental health stuff and then the fact so first of all the issue of stigma Another issue is the issue of culture and religion I mean we live in a society where you talk about the fact that you're sad I'm like you need to be strong Come on be strong and nobody feels like how you're not supposed to cry toughen up and it's okay You know why you acting like you know, you're not a man. You're a grown-up adult and everybody so I feel like there are a lot of You know struggles a lot of issues that It's not really allowing us have this conversation And I'm just hoping that this would just be another report and survey that everyone would just fold your arms and And say okay here we're folding our arms and then we're hoping that oh, that's just a report It will pass and Nigerians can never get depressed because you hear that fact that Nigerians can't kill themselves Nigerians don't commit suicide and all of that We're too happy and all of that and then it's it's not possible It's crazy how every day you get to see that people are committing suicide It's crazy how we move from one time the happiest nation in the world to One in six Nigerians, you know depressed because I remember when when you know that You know when that came out a couple of years ago when it said when you know There's that report on endurance really happiest people on earth, you know a lot of people celebrated it and said Yeah, you know because of the Nigerian spirit But you don't find that Nigerian spirit anymore And in response to some of the things that you mentioned The you know perspective of you know poverty and you know parents not being able to fend for their children Yes, you know people are you know broke people are struggling and struggling really really really seriously And it doesn't just affect the parents it affects the children also that struggle that you know level of poverty Inability to feed in ability to house in ability to clothes it affects everybody not just the parents who is under pressure And so yes, you know those you know, obviously things that will affect the young Nigerians and affect the kids who wake up in the morning And the most basic amenities food shelter security. You can't even find it security In Nigeria today It's a Nigeria where you're either struggling with bandits in the north or you're in the south and you're afraid of Policeman who's supposed to protect you I mean is that the same Nigeria where there's you know what have you heard of the price of food these days in the market? Have you seen that you know what it cost for a family of three or family of four to feed themselves for a week? Those are the most basic things You know that you would expect would be readily readily available the government should have handled those those aspects Listen to a podcast a couple of days ago. And you know the um, Andrew Schultz was talking about how white people Have time to argue about some of the most unusual weirdest irrelevant things and the reason they have that time they have time to to create new things they have time to Invent new things and and almost in fact it feels like every time they are trying to kill themselves Is mostly because they have the most basic things available. And so they look for more ways to excite themselves They want to argue about the most insane things. They are talking about. Oh, you know, we want um Where did I see that, you know, it's no longer about pedophilia now. No longer about, you know, um homosexuality They really now want laws to allow people to have sex with animals Because of this environment that they are of course, I mean the basic things are So I feel like, you know, just like before yesterday, okay, we don't have those here Another thing is therapy And it's one thing that I'm sure we'll speak to Benedict about Therapy is so expensive in Nigeria that a lot of people don't even bother You know, and so when you're you know, you're young Nigerian dealing with mental health challenges And you remember that if you go to speak to a therapist, you know, you may not be able to afford one session You rather just stay at home and tell yourself that Nigerians are not depressed Even even even before getting to the point where you're talking about seeking the help of a therapist I mean, how many persons are really aware of the fact that, you know, um, they can actually seek Uh, medical I mean they can seek help, you know Talk to psychologists the level of awareness is also another thing. But we do have our guest back, uh, benedict, benedict, uh, sama Thank you so much for joining us Benedict sama can hear us All right, we still might be struggling with Um, the connection to our clinical psychologists this morning. Sorry, I missed you there Okay, but you can hear us clearly now Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Can you hear us? Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you All right. Can you hear me? All right. So why we try to sort that out? Um, um, yes, therapy does exist in Nigeria, but not that many people know The reason is because it's not Mental health challenges really aren't spoken about on that level in the first place and then Because therapy is expensive Um, but not just in Nigeria. It's just that, you know, our you know, our level of income Doesn't really meet up with the level of income You know the parts of the world But for a regular Nigerian, you know, who wants to seek therapy? Who's dealing with emotional stress? Who's dealing with mental stress? By the time they think of how much it will cost them to have that one session And they know that one session may not be enough. They would rather just tell themselves that's You know, Nigerians are not depressed. Nigerians are happy people Instead of you going to speak with a therapist So those are things that I think also need to be fixed If we need to actually work on mental health of Nigerians Yeah, that's also very apt. But I'm also thinking on the other hand that it's okay to have, you know The support system working functional The family is first of all and we don't really seem to pay attention these days It's okay to have kids and not pay attention to what's really going on in their lives Now for some people would feel yes, we're providing For those who can provide I mean to provide the basic things that they need the shelter The clothing I mean the food and what have you education But it goes beyond all of that. So you would also want to ask yourself For those who people who can actually Meet the basic things of a level who have the basic things of life should there be depressed? Can there be depressed will be another question that can be depressed? So my point announces You know the the support system first of all the family Needs to leave up to expectation whether or not they can cater for I mean first of all before even having a child You should begin to consider all of that right that you should be responsible for this child Open to a certain age where he or she would get to and then they are able to take care of of themselves So yes, the nuclear family extended family and then you have the church or you know the mocks and what have you These are also support systems. It goes beyond just gathering You know in church on sunday or going for the mocks and all of that People should be able to talk about how they feel I mean that kind of atmosphere should be created and what have you there are other groups as well So you have you know people who belong to a non-governmental organization all the bodies I'm saying that we need to do but as much as we're waiting that government would intervene I'm saying that let's also try and see how we can also cushion this before we start saying Okay, yes, we're going to the state or begin to seek, uh, you know professional help. Yeah, you know, I I Agree, you know that these support systems they to come in in play Um, sadly, you know the reality of you know family a is not the reality of family b Um, family a might be living, you know, I'm having a better experience You know, the financially they are a lot stronger. They can support their kids They can you know, you know spend, you know, whatever it is, you know to ensure that their kids are happy But the next family may not be the same thing And another thing is sadly family b and the population is not the family b's a way more than population of family a And so this struggle, um, you know, you know in every family unit, um, you know spreads across the whole country Um, there's a lot that needs to come into play to make these things easier for Easier to do basically it's a lot that needs to come into play as a Nigerian society in general people are struggling People are really really really really And I'm thinking that okay, so let's even assume that we have moved way past at the time where we say I have five kids, right? We have moved let's just say we made the mistake And so you have five kids. We've moved way past that time But right now and I'm thinking that we should be very deliberate about having children and raising families that's that's a different different angle completely from Mental health of Nigerian young Nigerians benedict. Uh, sama. Can you hear us now? I can hear you. I'm sure you can hear me too, right? Yes, Lili. All right, so I can't go ahead We're almost out of time, but let's quickly talk about solutions You know, what what are the things that you think need to come into play in order to change this very very sad statistics of Nigerian young Nigerians being depressed Okay, good So that's what we call the Reactive measures and proactive measures. So that is the preventive measures Oh, you know, because most times the issue with depression is what we call distorted thought pattern Okay distorted thought pattern. Okay, the child believes that oh all things are not going on with him Or things are wrong and so on so forth It just be able it just starts changing the orientation That it felt that you don't have a good background doesn't necessarily mean that you don't end up well Okay, the further you're not And you are not I mean, you don't have the best TV at home now You don't have playstations at home now and your friends having I mean their other houses Do not really mean that you don't end up A great person in future So it just to be able to change those are reactive measures to be able to change the I mean their orientations and the area of parenting because You know, that's what we call autocratic parenting style Children who grow up in this environment also find themselves, you know, I'm following with the depressions also So we need to also be able to to start already Teaching our parents on the best parenting style to engage I mean these children on and there's also a need for proper awareness and substance use Which is also one of the cause of depressions Then what is a reactive measure? What do you do when a child is surprised? It's to seek profession. I have therapy Okay, you you go to a clinical psychologist. The first line of action is therapy So then if it if therapy then doesn't work after some time after some sessions Then we encourage and we recommend that you get medication Alongside with the therapy Thank you Yeah, but I was asking earlier about the, you know, the cost of therapy in Nigeria It's not it's not the cheapest thing to to get access to Um, I understand that yes, there's also free therapy, you know, sessions here and there But it's not If you if you'll be honest, it's not, you know, very affordable for the average Nigerian to See a therapist every week Yeah, I totally agree. But for instance in my office We run certain certain free services on certain days of the week But that is not really, uh, it's not often. Okay, it's Occasionally, but to be sincere with you therapy is not is not cheap And then looking at how many therapy you need for a child For instance, if you're dealing with depression and you're using a CBT approach That is a minimum of 12 sessions for instance Exactly a minimum of 12 sessions and the session can cost as much as a 40 000 euro per session How much? It can be as much as a minimum of 40 000 euro So but it varies. Okay. It's various from from practitioners to practitioners Thank you So the next question would be um, is there a role government can play in all of this to help, uh, you know Reduce because we know we can't say would vanish but reduce You know the rate at which children fall into depression Exactly now one of the things I think the government can start doing which is not really being done now If you look at certain countries outside the country Right, I'm sorry. I'm outside this continent rather. They have there's now mental health curriculum even from primary school level Mental health has now been, you know, drafted, inculcated into their curriculum So children are now learning about depressions. They are learning about preventing depressions They're learning about, you know, how to manage depressions. They're learning about the symptoms And that is the the best thing that I mean one of the best things rather So that is what I think the government can help start doing Let's bring this idea Into drafting mental health different mental health topics and management Into our curriculum start from primary school level, which is now Operative in some other countries. I know certain countries in the euro That we create a lot of informations for these children and empowerment for them Thank you All right, benedict saman clinical psychologist, thank you very much for Sharing your time with us. We apologize. Of course, the network had its own challenges But we hope that the mental health conversation continues to spread across Nigeria and more people are bold enough to speak up And to you know seek help where necessary, but thanks very much for your time once again Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thanks so much. Have a good day You too All right, stay with us coming up next. We're going to be talking sports is gonna draw going to be sucked or not And if yes, of course, we're having wally scott telling us a little bit more about this after the short break