 Meeting of GOL to order, seeing that we have a quorum. It is about, it is 1033 according to my watch, it's July 15th. This is a meeting of governance, organization and legislation. The committee of the town council, we are meeting virtually pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. This meeting of GOL is being conducted via remote participation. Hopefully most of you can access the packet. And so you have a copy of the agenda in front of you. I'm gonna go over just for a moment. We have one item unanticipated by the chair, I'm underlined by the chair that we'll be dealing with a little bit later in the meeting relevant to town manager evaluation. And that is in the packet. I put it in there yesterday. So other than that, you can see the items. I'd like to begin with a post-mortem review, just a quick and maybe of none of you have any thoughts. We've just gone through a process of recommending, making a recommendation to the council. It's our first time through, we've I think done it pretty thoroughly, but I wondered if there are any thoughts or comments. I had one quick thing I wanted to mention. One of the candidates, as I think you know, I sent you an email has withdrawn and she's expressed to me on a private email that she would like not to have her name mentioned during the discussion. So when it's pointed out or someone brings up the point that I thought there were four candidates, she's asked that as a courtesy and we could only do so much, but we not name her by name. We simply say that one of the candidates has withdrawn. So that is just a personal request. George, could you just quickly confirm everyone can hear and be heard for the record? That's true. So let's just quickly do that. Lynn Greesimer, can you hear me? Yes. Okay, Mandy Joe, can you hear me? Yes. Pat, can you hear me? Yes. And Andy, can you hear me? Yes. Thank you. All right, so we are all connected in hearing and seeing. So item two is this second item. Any thoughts on this at all about either the interview process, how it went, whether people felt it was, I mean, we only had four interviews, which I think was a blessing. Format, timing, anything, any thoughts about the interview process? Would you like to change it? I thought it was a good process. I didn't realize how difficult it would be to make the decision. And I don't know whether that would be true every time, but I have a feeling it probably would. And I was, but I thought asking individual questions seemed to flow well. I like the process. I agree with Pat. Okay. The only thing I would add is that I spoke with one member of the council who attended the meeting was obviously not a panelist and made the comment to me that it was best interview process for committee position seen yet that some of the planning board once initially, which was of course earlier in the process, just were not as free flowing and is open and is really productive is this one. This is the best process that that councilor had seen. I also want to thank George for doing the enormous amount of touching base with the candidates from the beginning to the end. And that is, I think that speaks so well on behalf of the council and it creates such a much more positive environment for all candidates when they've been, if you will, have been taught when you've touched base with them and really cared about them. I think that makes so much difference. Thank you, Lynn. I think your right is important. And I think it's also been true of other processes that we've followed, but extremely important. It means a lot to people. In this case, though, I had to tell everyone that we really have no idea what's gonna happen in 2020, so they should tune in. But yes, I think that personal element is important. Luckily, I only had four. Evan dealt with many, many, many more. So it makes it easier when it's four instead of 14. And I like the real questions we asked. The fact that we all then kind of settled into our question was fine, but it allowed us to see their spontaneity. Yeah. I think this is really partly aside, but with planning board and zoning, the interview process was a compromise. And I think they're just divisions, probably within the council, certainly there were divisions on the committee. And so I don't think anyone is particularly happy with the sort of rigid nature of the interview process. I think most of us became accepting of the public nature of it. I did, I came around to that, but I just think that there's just, well, these are, those two positions are highly political. And I think the sort of structured and somewhat artificial nature of the interview process reflects that. I think with finance, we've been perhaps blessed by the fact that it doesn't seem to have quite that quality. So, yeah. The buck has now passed the mandatory job. Exactly. I do that. I mean, because they can change it. That's their property. It's adopted a process and the report will be on Monday's report. Monday's package. I look forward to reading it. We have any other thoughts? So we were happy with the process and we have a written document that hopefully will be, I believe it is in the right place, but I'll make sure for future chairs and for future iterations of this committee as to how we think it should go. Obviously they can change it, but okay. We have a zoning amendment bylaw 11.250. It's in your packet. And I think this is something that is on the agenda for upcoming and it was on my to-do list. So I think we need to look at it briefly. And then I would like actually to follow with a brief discussion, just really slightly out of order of our process for reviewing bylaws. So number five is actually gonna come right after number three, but can we start with number three? And if it's possible to get that up on the screen, Lynn, for us to look at that. I'm trying to find it. I'll fill it up. Mandy, okay, thank you. I mean, I've looked at it recently. Now I can't find it. Yeah, it's there. Okay, that's great. Mandy, thank you. Can I introduce this, George? I'm sorry, Mandy. Can I introduce this? Please would you? Yes. Okay, so this is the, on voting, voting for site plan reviews. The actual text is in here. That text has been voted for one in CRC in support. To recommend it and the changes. And five two in the planning board, it has been to an attorney. That's the one thing I wanted to say, that this actual document came from Joel Bard, the planning, you know, the land use sort of attorney at KP law. When both planning board and CRC voted, we only voted that language. We did not vote this document. I just wanted to put that out there. We voted to recommend modifying, you know, revising the bylaw to add the words of majority and to delete the words at least two thirds, but not fewer than five. So that was the motion that we voted. I think it's up to this committee to decide whether we want all the, whereas is or not essentially this whole thing, or whether all we want is the, to amend the zoning bylaw part. I know that's been a discussion in the past at GLL. Okay. I only, right, it needs to be July at the bottom, July, 2020. Yeah. So the one thing you need to include in the order is a verb of some sort, because you have to make sure we're ordering it. So when you knock out the now, therefore be it ordered by, I don't think you want to say exactly that, but it needs to at least, it is ordered by the council for the ton of Amherst that, that much needs to think still be there. So I would propose to eliminate the three whereas lines and to change that last piece, so that it just says ordered by the town council that. Like that? Yeah, you could knock out, what about it is ordered instead of be it ordered? And then the motion for Athena's sake would be essentially either to adopt this order or just to amend zoning bylaw article 11. We do with finance, we just adopt the orders, right? Go back and see if I can quickly find an order from the finance committee and my... If I can interject, we do just adopt the orders and finance, but in the past for zoning bylaw changes, we've voted to amend. That's fine, right. And so I'm wondering why... If you're just doing an order of appropriation, it's pretty straightforward. Right. This is amending. Can I ask, when we did the vote to amend in the past, did you have to create an order or somehow, what did you do to document that vote? Is it just in the motion sheet? Oh, the larger things that the council votes on, I create orders, but it's mainly just for our records. And if somebody ever wanted to see a record of the orders that the council's voted, but the vote and the change was sent to the planning department so they could make that change in the zoning bylaw and repost it online and print copies if people wanted to buy copies. So we wouldn't really need an order for this, prepare it in this way. We would just need the vote and then the zoning bylaw changes. Has this been presented to us as an order because the attorney looked at it? I'm puzzled why it's in this form. It was presented as an order because Chris Brestrup asked the attorney, the language they had and what she was used to is a town meeting warrant article. And so she went to the attorney and said, what wouldn't be needed for council instead of a town warrant? And this is what he came back with an order. So that's why it's presented like this. It was a question of what do we have to do? We haven't really done these before as it relates to not being a town meeting warrant. So does that mean that when we get wage theft, it's gonna come back like this too? Oh, good question. Well, I guess that's what I mean. The only thing that would not be an emotion on the motion sheet is this part right here. Because I think the motion would be to amend the zoning, you know, instead of the town, it would say to amend the zoning bylaw article 11, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, by deleting and as follows and then you read it and then the certification, you know, this would be the motion. And then I think it works for magic. Right. So if we wanna go the order route, I think we should do it for all the bylaws, but it would just say it is ordered that the town amend, you know, and then the motion on the motion sheet, I guess would be to adopt order number, whatever. Just otherwise you'd be doing just a motion. I moved to amend the zoning bylaw article 11 and then through us to just motion. Right. George, if I may. Please. So when we don't, when the council doesn't vote something in this format and we need an order prepared like this, I prepare the language on the bottom that says I certify at the regular meeting of the town council so on and so forth. So I would add that to a council vote, whether or not you voted it. Does that make sense? I thought we were trying to get away from the where as is. I think we are. The question is, do we keep the order format or not? Right. And we have only been using it for finance. So I don't see any reason to change that unless there's a legal or if Athena for this, it would make things clear or easier. We just amend. And then she includes this language. I think I'm still a little unclear. I hereby certify that that language is. All right. That certification portion doesn't, it doesn't go in the motion. It would go if somebody wanted a copy of the order that the council voted, if they wanted a copy, a certified copy of the vote, then I would, then I would prepare something like this. You know, I, I really do prefer that we just keep orders to financial. I was going to go the other way. These are bylaws and which are just as major as financial. I mean, maybe we don't say, maybe, maybe we don't call it a financial order. Maybe we call it a bylaw order or something. All the, all the council votes, all the major council votes get orders whether we vote them in this format or not. And I would consider bylaws major council votes. Right. So, yeah, go ahead. So, so I have a database of all the council votes and orders prepared, whether or not we ever need them or use them. They're created for major votes like this, whether they're voted in this format or not. What would you need to present to the public? If somebody asked for it? When the council votes something, the vote would be to amend the zoning bylaw, so on and so forth. So whenever something like that is voted, it goes into my database and I create orders for it. And do you give it? So all I need is the council motion and vote. Okay. Do you then number all of the orders? Right. As FY, this would be FY 21. Ash. Right. And they get the next number in the sequence that we voted orders. Well, I mean, if that's what you need, then I'd leave it as an order and just we're gonna have to explain why all of a sudden these are coming through as orders. It seems to me though that if she's been handling it and Athena has been handling it the way she has and it works and it meets requirements, why do we need to change it? Why do we need to say an order? It is ordered. Good point. I don't see the need. So I guess we as GOL could present just this portion as I will. Joe's been having so much trouble with her connectivity. Mandy has, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she needs to get out of town hall. That building is jinxed, that building is jinxed. She probably has to go. Yeah, just to allow her to come back on. Yeah. So I think what she was suggesting was we just presented as a motion and then afterwards as Pat's suggesting, Athena creates them as orders. Right, I mean, it's worked so far. Why change it? Right. I tend to sympathize or agree with Pat unless there's a reason for Athena's point of view. Look, we lost her all together. Yeah, she's a screen maven at the moment. I know. I don't think we need to keep looking at it right now. Well, the only thing that is still out there and just so we understand is that two people on the planning board did vote no. And one of them at least is going to speak. So in the agenda on Monday, I'm probably going to move this early in the agenda so that they can just speak during public comment. I don't know yet because we were trying to figure out how to handle all the public comment we're going to get on Monday anyway. Right. And whether or not, you know, I've been avoiding doing public comment at the time of certain votes and issues, but we may, I may go back to doing a little bit more of associating comment with the issues. And then that way is I just haven't figured it out. The agenda looks short, but in fact it could take us through that agenda. So going back to this thing, being a joke, are you back? She's trying to, I simply need emotion. And I move that we recommend this to the council. Well, we declare it. I think that motion then would be that we declare the zoning bylaw 11.250, the amendment to the zoning bylaw, that the language to be clear, consistent, and actionable. And actionable. Yeah. I'm so move. Second. And we have a second. And so I think we should give Mandy a chance to get back on for the vote. I am on. You're calling in. We have a caller. This is our first caller. I should be in, oh gosh, I can't understand her. Right. She's muted at the moment. This is how our problems started too. Mandy, Joe and I just discussed it yesterday. We had it upgrade our box from Comcast. Here we go. Okay. So I thought I was in twice. So I'm on the phone and I'm in theory also on my computer right now. I'm going to keep the phone connection alive though. There's a computer in the whole house. Every single one of us lost our connection. So something's going on. We're all trying to videoconference. While you were away, Mandy. I heard a motion. We had a motion to declare the language of this zoning amendment to be clear, consistent, actionable and anti-seconded it. And so that's where we're at at the moment. Any further thoughts, discussion? We seem to have come perhaps not quite appropriately to a consensus that we're going to not treat these as orders but treat them as we have them in the past. I think you were somewhat on the fence there. I don't know if that's acceptable to you but that's at the moment where we're at what do you think of it as an amendment? That's fine. Okay. And then Athena then creates them into orders after one. She does what she's been doing quietly and efficiently all the time. So we're up to a vote? Yeah, we're ready for a vote. So we've had the motion seconded and discussion. So I'm going to begin with Pat Ianis. Yes. Okay. And Lynn Grissimer? Yes. Okay. And Mandy Johanke? Yes. The chair is a yes, Andy Steinberg? Yes. So this vote is unanimous five zero to declare the language of zoning amendment. The amendment is zoning 11.250 consistent and actionable. It's out of order, but I thought that actually if I had been thinking, I wanted to follow up just very briefly with your thoughts on how we should as a committee be dealing with these sorts of bylaw requests and reviews. And I apologize for the background noise. I need to communicate to my better half that she needs to stop using our printer. So you may hear some yelling in a minute, but when we're dealing with bylaws, and this example we just had doesn't fit this process, but I would expect that you have the noise in the background. Anybody? It's an echo. Oh, it's an echo, it's me. Oh, great. No, I think it's me and I'm trying to figure it out without having to disconnect my phone. Mandy, if you have your speakers on your computer turned up, you might want to turn those down. Sometimes it picks up your phone. I muted them already. Oh, okay. I muted them already. I'm trying. All right. I do have to warn you that I probably need to leave at 11.30 because of all of the finance stuff that's going on. Yeah, I'm sort of out of control at this point but I'm not sure if it's me out of control or... That's putting it mildly. You're out of control or the finance is out of control. A little of both actually, but... All right. So we'll try to move as quickly as we can and maybe this is not the appropriate time for it, but as chair, when I have these bylaws, I would like some, I'd actually like to write it down at some point. I think Mandy's handled this in the past quite well, but I think I need just some written guidance as to what you need. You need a clean copy. You need a red line version. And in case, at least in a recent event, you needed the original copy, which you didn't have. You needed to see what the original was. You need to see what the changes were and you need to see the red line version. So those three should always be available to you. Now in this case, you saw the original version and the edits, so it's pretty simple. So I think probably that one would be all right. So beyond that, what else do you need? For instance, I put in the packet, I think it's article one of the zoning of the bylaws, the general bylaw actually, that just describes the sort of language and the formats that appropriate, which is what our purview is. We do clear, consistent, actionable, that's it. So maybe that should always be available or maybe it should be something everyone has handy. And then finally, attorney review. And finally, what, George? Attorney review, what, you know, this is always a question in my mind. Usually we look at something and then it gets since the attorney and then it goes back to the council, really. Shouldn't it come back to us? Well, I don't wanna see it again, but maybe, so these are some, what the committee wants to have in its packet when we're doing bylaws. And the complexity of the bylaw because in most situations, I think it's fairly straightforward. And just the red line version is probably all you need is a fairly simple thing, but the more complex it is, the more that we need to understand what it is that the movers of the motion or the committee that has dealt with it on a substantive side is seeking to accomplish and whether we independently then read the bylaw and conclude that the proposed language does what they intend because it's not whether we intend that we're looking at whether it's clear system and actionable in the clear, the clarity part. We need to know what it is that they're seeking to achieve and doesn't do it. And so Andy's kind of speaking to my issue. I mean, what happened in the process of this thing starting to it finally coming back to the council is we've lost, why are we doing this? Now, in this case, I happen to know why we're doing it, but other counselors may not remember why we're doing this. So, and basically what happens then at the council meeting, I call upon the two different committees, in this case, CRC and GLL and I say, please give us your recommendation. And hopefully either in your report or somewhere will be a reason stated and written down as why we're even doing this. So I just want to make sure that we have either attached a memo to the bylaw when we file it or we have it in a report that can be attached to the bylaw when we file it. That gives history as to why we changed this. That could be in the chair's report or could also be something that is brought up orally in the discussion, but it's important, yes. It needs to be written on the record somewhere. It could be in the record, not just stated at the public meeting, right? Okay. What about attorney review? Maybe there's not the time for this discussion, but it's in my mind, it's just completely unclear where it fits in. This one came to us from the attorney, but normally that's not the case. Normally we see it and then it gets sent to Paul. Are you saying should it come back to us after attorney review? Well, I mean, yeah, that's a question. I know in previous cases, I know Evan brought up a case where it went to the attorney. The attorney made all kinds of changes. And when it came back, they had all kinds of questions about the changes the attorney had made. And so, if it goes directly to the attorney, you don't get answers to. Yeah, yeah. So that just adds more time. It makes things take even longer. So imagine, waitstaff bylaw, the attorney looks at it and then it comes back to us again. That seems like a problem. I think we're the ones that have to decide whether we're gonna accept the attorney changes or not. I think we did that with, which one was it, Pat, percent for art? Yes, that's right. That's right. And most of them we accepted, but some, we might have even accepted all of them, but I think having a committee review the changes to be able to discuss them would be helpful. Yeah, because it's not clear or always clear to me that what the attorney is saying is necessarily gonna be a change that we make or that we need to make. And that's kind of an interesting navigation. I think it has to always come back to us before it goes to the council. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, that's right. And that's what I'm worried about and or that's my question because that adds even more time. So take away, Steph, we've already, it's been going on for quite some time. My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is it still being reviewed by the attorney? I don't think we've gotten it back. Nope. That's my understanding. And if it does come back, I mean, whenever it comes back, it should then be on our agenda again. Right. And the sponsors are gonna need to take a careful look at it because they may have been changed. Well, since we're both on the committee and we can get Kathy involved. Right. We've been doing it in preparation for this meeting. I just want to make sure that they don't change the intent of something like they did that one time. Yeah, with Percentra, we just had Bill Cazan at the meeting that we reviewed the attorney changes. Okay. So it does sound like a consensus from the committee that even though it adds time to the process that we would expect that any attorney review that results in changes. I mean, it comes back with no changes or it comes back with, you know, the governor, right? And, you know, does that still have to come to us and still have to go into our agenda? No. Well, that's what I'd like, but somebody has to look at it to say, oh, that's just Scrivener changes or that's just, you know, that's immaterial and who's going to do that? I mean, it's going to be his committee, right? I think it has to come back because we haven't, if we're sending to an attorney, we haven't voted clear for that ability. So whether or not they come back with changes, we'd still need to make that vote. Right. Okay. All right. Andy has 20 minutes. I think we need to make a decision in terms of the agenda. I wanted to touch base with how you're doing on bylaws for future consideration. I already gave Lynn a pass. I think Andy's, I mean, all of you have your hands full right now. So I have no problem with just, you know, postponing this, I have my three items. I haven't acted on them. For instance, the HR director is going to change. So I don't see any point in sending something to the HR director in the last couple of days or weeks of her tenure and that deal with the town manager. I mean, in other words, my three items, I know what I need to do. And that may be true for all of you. It may be the case that you just haven't had a chance to even think about it. That's fine. If you have something that you want to, well, I'm just asking, anybody have anything they want to tell me about their future considerations assignment? As an answer, maybe you don't want to. Move it to the back burner. Fine, okay. It just doesn't... Not pressing. I understand, absolutely. Okay. I mean, it has to be done, but no. I will keep it, I will keep it on. I will have it in my back of my tiny brain. Okay, all right. I want to move to items unanticipated. Rethesis by the chair. We have the town manager, we need to review the town manager evaluation and make a recommendation to the council. That is in the packet. I put it in at the last minute. And we need to decide how we want to proceed on this. Do we want to begin to go through it section by section, line by line? Do we want to simply acknowledge that it's something we need to deal with and give everyone a chance to ponder it and come back to it one more time before it goes to the council? Do we want to have a special meeting? Focus just on this. These are just, I'm not pro or con here. I'm just throwing out some options. We can start with that. I think I'm the only person here who was involved in putting this together last time. Pat, were you on the committee? No. You weren't, okay. First of all, this was the result of a very long drawn out process of an ad hoc committee of about five people. And during the process, we met with Paul two or three times and he weighed in on the goals. And so at some point, if we're going to devote a meeting to this, I think it would be to also include Paul to talk with us about where he sees these goals. The other thing is clearly there needs to be a goal either under community outreach or separate around racism, et cetera. And that needs to be carefully written. I'm sure somebody like Pat or would be better able to write how that might, but the other piece I'm just gonna say, these didn't get passed until last January. Then we went into COVID. It took us six months to get here. And I hope we can just look at these goals and tweak them for this coming year instead of getting into an unbelievably extensive process. But I do think we need to sit with Paul. So, here's. Any thoughts? Danny? Yeah, I mean, having gone through this every year on the select board that I was on the select board, we did generally work with the goals from the prior year, but you have to give some thought to what are the exceptional requirements that you expect to be coming up in the next year? And are there ones that particularly need focus and are you going to do any variation as a result and if you've learned anything new? Let's face it, if the council were to vote to cut the police budget by 52%, I imagine that that would be a huge portion of town manager's responsibility is to how we're actually going to provide public safety in the town of Amherst and negotiating with all of the various parties that would have to take place in order to do that. And it would just, I think that we consume a large part of this time and you have to adjust the goals so that recognizing that a person's time is limited to what they can accomplish in the amount of available hours. You just skewed in a one direction something. And having mentioned the whole issue of policing and racism, I also want to mention that somewhere in here we do need to recognize the continuation of COVID and the managing of the town through the pandemic because it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when. Yeah. But it's many, I'm sorry. My last comment actually made me think of something else on the prior subject we were discussing on the agenda which is the bylaws. I just want to point out that the whole question of what our bylaws are and what can be enforced if we don't have a police department operating in the town of Amherst on a 24-hour basis is something that we need to consider as we look at bylaws. Just leave and get there. If we get there, we don't know. Andy. So I think we need to have the manager in at the August 3rd meeting. And yeah, I've been looking at them. There's some that need modified because of what was accomplished this year. And so they need rewritten to reflect that accomplishment and moving forward on stuff. I do think given COVID and it'd be interesting to see how much COVID, time COVID is still taking of the manager's day essentially. I know it was a huge part of it back in March and April and it slowed down a little bit, but my guess is it's still a large part of the week. We might need to, despite, we might need to triage the goals to figure out which ones aren't going to get done this year and how much he can get done and how much aren't going to get done and which ones are the least important of the goals that we have to drop. Okay. We need to input. Andy. Because we need to input. Yeah, we do. Yeah. We could come to the August 3rd meeting with our own thoughts having reviewed the goals with potentially our own drafts of new COVID and racism goals and then talk to him and try and come out with something for the 12th for the council. I like that idea. And while I appreciate Lynn's trust in me, I think that if we're each responding to racism, we'll come up with better guidelines than just one person because I really believe in that collaborative process. And the feeling is from the group that devoting our next meeting as opposed to a special meeting is fine. In other words, in two weeks time, I would invite Paul to be present at 1030 during our regular meeting. And what I wouldn't tell him that the focus of the only agenda item, hopefully, we know that sometimes we do get things thrown at us, but I think hopefully we could make it the only agenda item. We'll be discussing the town manager goals. And that would be a full two hour. I mean, we'll take as much time as we need but we have two hours to hear from him. I think that is extremely valuable. And also people would have a chance to think about what they would like to change. And we'd also, I think triage is a good point given the situation, but not a special meeting. So just need your nods or approvals. I am holding back my approval temporarily because if some by some miracle, the wage step bylaws were back from the- Right, I understand. The law. I would not like to miss the 29th to have a time to discuss them. Or, you know, so I'm not ready to say it's all false. Maybe we schedule it for instead of the third, we schedule it for the week before because I think we've got three weeks between meetings now. We do. We do? Oh, wait, I'm off then. When's the, when are- Well, you have the 22nd and you have the 29th. I will not be on the 22nd. Well, we don't have anything scheduled till August 3rd, right, George? August 5th is what my calendar is. Oh my God. Okay, August 5th is a GOL meeting. Yes, that's the next one. And you're saying the 22nd is? No. Of July. No, we have nothing scheduled but I won't be on the 22nd. August 5th. And my question is whether, given all the other things going on and given the demands on people's time that you want to wait until August 5th to invite the town manager and have this discussion, we need to present a final draft, I assume, on what? What is the deadline? The 12th? Is the council meeting? It's a Wednesday. So it's in the packet for the next council meeting. Which is the 12th, is that right? The 12th is a Wednesday, so the next one is the 17th, but the Wednesday is the council meeting. Right. So again, just, I'm sorry, I'm just dense today. The council meeting would be what date? The 17th. 17th. 17th. By the 17th, we've agreed to present it to the council. Right. And I'm sure that we're all wanted by the 17th, right? The list of goals. And, right. Timeline says we give it to the council on the 12th. And it gets discussed on the 17th. So I guess another option is, I don't like this one though. The third and the 12th, we hold meetings. And if wage theft comes in, we do it first on the third, but I don't like that one versus the 29th and the third. I think I'd rather do the 29th and the third. And the 29th would be the meeting with Paul and focus on town manager goals or just have a regular meeting and deal with whatever's on the, I mean, I think we really need to decide when we want to sit down with Paul and tell him this is the date and that's when we're going to do it. And the third gives us enough time and we can do it on the third. We should do it on the 29th because I'm just warning you now, it's not an easy process. If we do it the 29th, we can devote the whole meeting to goals. Right. Extra meeting, which is not always a fan of, but then the fifth, if we, for some reason finish the goals on the 29th and wage theft is not backed by the fifth, we could potentially consider canceling the meeting on the fifth. And if wage theft is back, we can at least get wage theft in so that it can be on. It wouldn't be on the town council agenda until August 17th. Right. At the earliest, August 7th. We missed the August 3rd agenda because we don't have it back from the attorney. Right. It can't be done there. It's taken a whole year and we still don't have it on the agenda. So it's a little early. August 17th is only the town manager evaluation. The whole meeting. The 29th. So then I'm more in favor of the 29th. And if we can push Paul to get wage theft back before the 29th, we could at least review, we could split that meeting and still do the 29th and the fifth for goals and get wage theft on the 29th to be able to put it on the 3rd of August still. Yeah. We need to. Is he delaying it or it is just. We need to push him to push the attorney. Okay. All right. Well, the chair can certainly in his communication with Paul, allure him. Again, I have to make sure he can make that meeting. I'm sure he would do everything he could, but there might be something that, but yes, I would tell him this is what we're planning. A meeting on the 29th, exclusively devoted to the town manager goals and then in another sentence. And could you please try to push the attorney to get the wage theft bylaw back to us by the 29th? That's our hope. Yes. I heard what Mandy was saying differently, but go ahead. So here's my new thinking because we can't, if we miss the August 3rd meeting for wage theft, we can't put wage theft on until August 24th. So it's three extra weeks. So my new thinking is, if we can get the attorney to get us back, the wage theft edits by July 29th, we could split that meeting 30 to 45 minutes on wage theft if it even needs that much. And the rest would be goals. And then the third could finish up goals. And that would allow us to put wage theft on the August 3rd meeting if we can get the stuff back from the attorney by the 29th. Again, in my communication with Paul, I would be telling him that we are planning to discuss time manager goals on the 29th and very likely on the 3rd. Yes, on the 5th. We'd like him to be present ideally at both meetings. And I would certainly tell him if we had a meeting which was split, I would tell him when we expect that he wouldn't be needed. Obviously it's a courtesy. But so tell him 29th and 3rd, 1030. On the 12th. No, no. Yes, 5th. 5th, the 5th. Keep making that mistake. 29th and 5th. And again, re-emphasize the desire to get the wage theft by law back if at all possible by the 29th or before the 29th. Okay, is that, Mandy is that? And the goal then is to have wage theft if at all possible on the August 3rd agenda. Yeah, yeah. Got it. Our first reading. Okay. All right. What else do we need to get done before Andy? I'm just looking to see. He's into a fiscal nightmare. I mean, I think what really means we have a set of minutes that if he's had a chance to look at, he might want to weigh in on, but he may not. The remaining items are discussion items. And I'm not sure. Just one last thought. When we do meet to discuss time manager goals, the homework for us, just to reinforce for myself is to have looked at these and have some, right? Okay. And that will happen on the 29th. We have Lynn's demo on the long-term, how dealing with long-term or permanent change in the public way. GOL is supposed to look at that. CRC is, I'm sorry. TSO is supposed to look at it as well. We have the flag policy. And then we have minutes. One at least vote on the minutes. And I only have these minutes. I do not have the minutes of the 24th or of the first. So I don't know where those are at the moment. I've had not a chance to reach out. I've gotten, the most recent is the minutes of, I believe the 17th. Is that right? And I don't know if people had a chance to look at them. I've looked at them. I think they're fine. But, anyone, I'll take a motion. I move that we accept the minutes of the, whatever date that. June 17th. June 17th. I second. Okay. Again, roll call I guess is necessary. So this time we'll start with Lynn. Yes. And Mandy. You're muted, Mandy. Getting there. Yes. The chair is a yes, Andy. Yes. And Pat. Yes. All right. So the minutes of June 17 are approved unanimously. I will see what I can do about the other two minutes. We had a special meeting and we have July one. So, thoughts about the discussion items. Do you want to deal with them today? Have people had a chance to think about them? The whole issue of long, these are thorny ones, long-term, permanent changes, thoughts on this. Maybe we should let TSO chew on it for a while and see where they get. Yeah. I just wrote myself a note. I think I need to do something next for TSO to look at this. They came to no conclusion last time. No, no. We're still struggling with our process, unfortunately. And we've taken a long vacation, unfortunately. But we'll be back at it soon. Flag policy, the only reason I put it in here is because we got a request from someone about using the flagpole. And it struck me as we really don't have a consistent policy, but maybe there's no way of getting one. There is a memo, not a memo, but well, let's call it that, that I did a number of months ago that describes to my understanding what the policy is, such as it is. And again, maybe this is something that people want to look at and think about before we have a discussion. So that's what's left on the agenda are a number of discussion items. So. And let me just say, in receiving the initial request for the Indian flagpole, you can't remember whether it came to the whole council to begin with or I sent it off to the council, but we had one counselor just be extremely clear that they could not enforce that at all. And it was you and Shalini, I think there might have been two. Very. That particular, right. Okay. That particular one. And I urge that we do come back to this, whether we try to wrestle with it today because it won't be the last time we get one of these requests. I think Pat and George can correct me. When we were discussing this in GL before, one of the things we discussed was that any flying of a flag beyond, if you're looking at the flag policy, the first part, the non commemorative part, be required to be part of a resolution of some sort, the council adopts. We never got that far to coming up with something like that, but that we did notice that for Black History Month and Tibetan Dependence and LGBTQ and Puerto Rican Heritage Day at least, they were always part of a resolution that the council adopts. The Japanese flag has been flown occasionally for visiting dignitaries. I don't think we've ever adopted a resolution, but that was one of the things we discussed was for any non-U.S. U.N. and Massachusetts flags that it be a council resolution that indicates with reasons why. And with a Japanese flag that may have been flying because of our sister cities. Yeah, no, I mean, that was the visiting dignitaries and all that makes total sense, right? So that suggests to me, at least the beginnings of the shaping of a policy, not that we're gonna do it today, but that any kind of flag requests like this that's not commemorative would require a resolution. And also that would then I see also require a sponsor. So there have to be at least one counselor sponsoring it and a resolution presented to the council and then attached to that would be, and so that may be a simple way to put into writing what, so say someone approaches Lynn with this kind of request, future whoever the president of the council will be would say, well, here's the policy, you need to get a resolution and to get that you need a sponsor. And I can tell you two people right away, you shouldn't approach. The reason I like that idea is because we could say, well, no, let's just say that we'll only fly it if the town council votes to fly it. But in order to come to the town council to vote to fly it, you have to have a reason. And that's what resolution does. It gives you a rationale. Right, exactly. Now it allows us to say something to the public. So combination of those two, I think is critical. I can certainly draft something very brief along those lines for some future consideration. There's no rush here, but I would put something like that together to give us something to look at. And then maybe we could actually make a decision and that would provide a policy that would guide you and future presidents when these things come up. Okay, good. I think item six, TSO, we're gonna let them, I mean, I'm open to people's thoughts on this. I've obviously spent far too many hours pondering it and haven't really come up with much of any use. So maybe we should let TSO try it. I mean, I'm on that committee as well, so. I would suggest we try to do that because ultimately our job is not to decide how to do it, but then figure out how to write it into our goals or our rules of decision. I just wanna add the word recommend how to do it to TSO's decision. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think I would normally be more protective of GOL's role in setting policies or in recommending the policies as Pat says to the council, but the prior GOL committee struggled with this particular one for how many meetings? I mean, and we got absolutely nowhere and the council didn't like anything we came up with. So I think leaving it to the committee that's going to have to deal with it to try and struggle and figure out what they want before. And then maybe we try and incorporate that into some sort of language. I'm perfectly happy allowing that to happen. And let me just say, I don't write, we've already said, every couple of months, two months or so, we wanna know what's coming up that might be public way because of constructions and new buildings and stuff like that. So we've already put in some additional guidance for the town manager by what we've talked about in the council meetings. I'm perfectly happy leaving it with GOL besides the fact that they have Lincoln Avenue on their agenda. Right, right, good. And have not jumped forward to deal with it. Good, well, this opens up the very tantalizing possibility that we could move to adjourn. I'm sorry? Public comment. Public comment, yes. How could I have forgotten? I'm taking a look. There are no public. I see the attendees at zero today. And zero has nothing to say. So we have a period of public comment, but there's no public present. So we will not have public comment. We've adopted the minutes of June 17. I'd like to let Andy go. My future, Lynn, please. I'd like to make a motion to yield this additional hour to the finance committee. Absolutely. Some funds too for R&R or whatever, mental health, whatever. So on our agenda coming up, future items, we're looking at inviting Paul and hopefully dealing with wage theft. I will communicate with him and tell him about our desire to see him on both those dates, if possible, but the 29th for sure. And also remind him or ask him to try to push the wage theft along if at all possible. Demand. I will work on the lag thing in my free time. And, uh, and I'm going to start working on meditation some more because it's going to be a rough couple of weeks. I think. Sending me, sending me things. I'll have to send you. I need some. I've really been appreciating it. Well, it's, it, you should, my daughters are ready to sound. I've been fulminating and raging and, you know, it's just not good. We have to let it just, you know, people are going to say what they're going to say. Is he sending you things to help you meditate and concentrate? There's no the mantras, you know. My favorite one is all views are wrong views. That's my favorite. You lost my email. I'm sorry. My email. You didn't send me any of these. Well, I may have lost my email. You didn't send me any of these. Well, I'm okay. I could have a listserv and send everyone a little daily mantra. Um, hasn't been helping me much lately. So I really have to do some work on it. No, it's tricky. Uh, I agree. Um, How do I sign up for this? Sorry, George. What have I created? Um, Putting all of us in the minutes. I'm sorry. Putting this in the minutes. I think we need this colony mindfulness. Session. I don't have my thing. I don't want to get into competition with the professionals, but, um, Little things I try to use that I need to use more. Um, but we're going to have to, I mean, other thing versus, this is not relevant, but there's a, a, uh, petition. It was in the paper yesterday, right? 500 signatures. Uh, from citizens in our town. That's what I read. Did anyone. I think. Is that the university to close? They don't want the university reopen. Oh. No one saw that. Men. I saw the article, but yes, it's addressed to the university. Yeah. I don't know. Is that on online? But it's 500. They said it had 500 signatures. That's 500. Have they come to the town clerk to get the petition stuff? No, it's one of those things. Right. It's kind of the one. It's an online, you know, one of those like online petitions. I don't know what the website is, but. Well, I'd like to see it. It's in the Gazette today. Was in yesterday's Gazette. I don't know. I don't know. It was featured article. I've got it downstairs. And it just caught my eye. The names didn't ring any bells. I didn't recognize the people, but they were named. And they claim they have 500 signatures. And these are residents of Amherst. I assume they're all residents of Amherst. What does that trigger the 500 signatures? Nothing. It's just, it's an expression of. Of concerns and expression of, you know, and from our perspective, it just gives you a sense of a degree of anxiety. In the community. Yes. And we need to be really. Sensitive to that. I'm also afraid that we can become so focused on this other issue. That we're going to lose sight of the really important one, which truly does raise public health. Issues in a very fundamental way. Well, one of the reasons that I decided to go ahead and add the carryover meeting on the 21st, Pat, I'm so sorry for you. Is because our agenda on Monday includes the budget. This discussion about UMass. And other. And, you know, regular other business. Elections. We had it financed and everybody wanted to talk about it. Pat. Yeah. So you're saying there's an additional council meeting on the 21st. Yeah. Yeah. I would appreciate it if the vote on the budget came up. On the 20th and not on the 21st. And I'm aware you're not going to be there. The 20th and 21st. And I, I agree with you. Yeah. Thanks. For finance. Because that's a split. I'm sorry, I can't hear you, George. Yeah, we lost you. Am I still here? No. You're. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No. You're. You're fading fast. Okay. Well, maybe that's. You should move to adjourn. So I'll say my opinions for another day. Call me or. Email me. I would like to. Thank you. Thank you. Well. Adjourn. Yes. This meeting is adjourned.