 Hello, welcome to our first of our in conversation events here around the topic of material methods. My name is Sophie Woodward and I'm a senior lecturer in sociology at the University of Manchester. I'm also a co-investigator for the NCRN and I lead in the creative methods area. Hello, my name is Natasha Latskut and I am a lecturer at the Department of Educational Research at Lancaster University. So I think we can continue and start talking about material methods. So Sophie, what are material methods? Well, material methods are methods that are kind of speak to the relationship between objects and the research that people do. And as a term, it's not something that's been around for very long, although people have been doing material culture research for ages. It's actually a phrase that I created in the book I wrote recently. And the reason I created it was to really speak to this relationship between material culture and methods. So in my understanding of the term, it has two different meanings. And the first is it speaks to the methods that people use to understand material culture or materiality or even research into materials. So the idea that actually some methods will help us to understand that we're not just looking at people. We're looking at maybe people object relations or even understanding things themselves. So the idea that we can develop or change social science methods to help us do that. So that's the first meaning. And then the second meaning is for people who want to use object-based research to understand anything. So the idea is it's not just for people who are interested in materiality or material culture. It's for people who are interested in anything. So for example, if you're interested say in memory, you might think that actually I'm going to use an object interview because that will help me understand memory. So the idea then is that it's methods that use objects in some form in order to kind of generate different kinds of responses. So those are the two sort of different meanings. And I think then that has implications for who it's of interest to and who it's relevant for. Yes, of course it's relevant for people who do research in materiality and material culture. But it's also a relevance to any social scientist who's interested in just more creative methods of research. So in lots of ways, I think I would really love to see material methods become part of that broader rubric of creative methods. And I think that the other thing around that as well is that it kind of crosses disciplines. So obviously you and I are from different disciplines. And again, if you look at the people who do research within what we might define as material methods, I might not call it that, they come from all over. Sociology, anthropology, education, geography, art, design, really massive range of subjects. And I think that's what's really kind of exciting about it. And in terms of what material methods are specifically, it can be things like cultural probes, it can be ethnography, object interviews, kind of follow the thing methods. So some of them are more obviously material. So like an object interview is clearly it's got the word object in the title. That's the kind of clue. But even ethnography, which lots of people who do ethnography are not interested in material culture. But the idea is you can develop that method in order to speak to it. So that's broadly speaking how I understand material methods. Yes. And where does your interest in material methods come from? And I mean, there are two reasons. One is that I have personal reasons for it. And the other is a kind of academic reason. And obviously the personal is always academic given that I'm a researcher. But the material culture thing is partly coming from the fact that there's masses of research on the theoretical understanding. The materiality on material culture. There's also as a consequence, loads of empirical research. Now, some of this is being going on for, you know, centuries. Some of it more broadly comes within what we might call the material turn, although I'm slightly reticent to use that term because it implies that before that nobody looked at material culture. But there certainly has been like a massive expansion in the field of material culture since then. And I think what that is really interesting about that is that you get a parallel field of research in visual methods and sensory methods. So the methodological literature and there's loads of wonderful exciting stuff on that, but there's almost nothing that crosses the two on, you know, there's no kind of field of material methods as yet. And I think it really struck me as a kind of strange gap. And so people are clearly doing material methods because they've got empirical data on it, but there's a lack of reflection and development and expansion on that field. So you can find examples, but they are very few and far between. So I think partly I think it's a really important area to develop. But the other side of it as I say is a personal journey in it. For me it came from when I started started my research journey doing my PhD and that's into women's wardrobes and clothing. And it was a material culture project. I was interested in the materiality of clothing. And I realized I knew nothing about it. I'm a social scientist. I thought I knew nothing about. I didn't even know the words to use. I thought what words to use to describe clothing. And I was writing down about them and I knew nothing. And I thought I ought to understand this stuff. And so I think it made me realize that actually I really needed to think about methods for understanding this. And it wasn't just about going to material scientists and saying, well, you know about materials, I know about people. And it's also about thinking how can we expand social science methods to understand materiality. So how can we develop methods like observation and interviews in order to do that. And I think so for me personally it's been something that I became aware of my own inability to do something. And that's kind of been one of my real drivers over the years is to try and try and develop that. So it's been a life kind of career long interest, but it's only now that I'm starting to more explicitly think actually I'd like to see this develop even further. That's fascinating. So Sophie, could you then give us an example of how a material method would work? Yeah, sure. So for example, I mean I've done lots of different ones, but let's take ethnography because that's a method that's used in lots of different ways. So ethnography involves some participant observation, hanging out with people watching what they do. And if we were to do that in a sense of thinking really about material culture. Some of it I would see as kind of almost what we might call attuning yourself. So attuning yourself to what do people do with stuff. So the idea that what we're observing and participating in is not just people and what they say, it's also what are they doing with the objects around them. And also, you know, thinking about when they talk, how are they talking about the stuff around them, what are the things themselves doing. And actually that can really give you a very different perspective on what's happening. And so, you know, that's one way but also again in interviews I already mentioned that's possibly the most accessible to someone who wants to get into material methods, knows nothing about them when you're doing an interview instead of just talking to someone, asking them to bring along an object. And when they talk about that object, you start to realize that actually you're not just doing an interview about their memories. When you have an object with them, you understand that actually you're understanding how the object materializes memories as well and that will give them different memories, different stories that wouldn't have come had they not bought the object along. So I think the object interview is actually possibly the most accessible one sometimes for people to try. Right, and where do you see material methods going? So what is the future of material methods? I think the future is expansive and wonderful. I think partly I hope that in explicitly kind of naming it, that will in turn lead to more kind of explicit reflection and discussion around it. Because actually when we have something that's called material methods, people can start to recognize well actually that's something that I do or how could I reframe what I'm doing in that way. And I think one of the big possibilities I see is around interdisciplinary, interdisciplinary, sorry, collaboration. So the idea that actually, as I've already said, lots of disciplines already do this. How can we think about this together and develop dialogues around it? And so one of the possibilities around this is around the reframing of existing methods. So the idea that actually, as I've already said, lots of people do visual methods but thinking about the ways in which actually these are also material quite often already their material, but equally they can be developed and expanded in that way. So I think some of it is actually just about the reflecting differently on existing methods, but some of it is about developing new methods. So one of the new methods I've been interested in, for example, is around methods around, for example, inventories and collections, because actually that can allow us to think differently about things in relation to like wardrobes and attics and stuff like that. But it's not just about new methods, it's also just about reframing stuff that people already do. And so I think that actually for me, one of the most interesting areas is around this dialogue between the kind of material methods and also the sensory and the visual as well. And I think in a lot of ways that's why this in conversation event becomes interesting. So obviously, I think that kind of leads a little bit on to you and what you do because, you know, I think a lot of it, there's a lot of scope for thinking about this kind of inquiry graphic based method that you're interested in. And then thinking about what how that can help us sort of develop new material methods. So, I mean, it might be useful perhaps to just to start with a basic question, what are inquiry graphic methods. Yeah, so inquiry graphic methods use visual media, such as photographs, videos, drawings, sketches, and in research pedagogical as well as analytical processes. And in that way they're also types of visual and multimodal methods, but we're inquiry graphics and methods differ from their relatives is in proposing relational thinking as its key principle. And what I mean by relational thinking is actually relational thinking, I guess that there is an intrinsic link between what is traditionally known as abstract theory or concept or idea from one side and then embodied image from the other. So whether it's an external picture or image or we're talking about picture sensation imagine in one's mind. So it does relate also to you can say that it relates to other embodied sensations because we can talk about concepts and also sensations on the other hand. And so this image concept or concept sense connectedness is explored and analyzed in a manner that is inspired by Charles Sanders person semiotics and his triadic sign relations. And that I mean that that's interesting. Could you say maybe a little bit more about about that, what you mean by that and then maybe what that makes the kind of you about the method. Yes, of course. So this triadic sign or design triad and would work something like they so let's sense something. So for example, I see an image and then the sense thing is is one side of the triad. So so that's an image form with its content and its medium. And so what the image refers to or what it represents is another triadic component and and how someone's mind interpreted is the third component. So that's that forms a triad. And these triadic relations, they happen simultaneously in everyday life, you know, when we just go about our lives and and we look around ourselves and see the world and we interpret in this kind of triadic way. And so, but as components, they are not the same, and they're not insignificant. And so it helps if we dig deeper and understand both the parts and the whole. So, and for example, we usually interpret images by just jumping to to what they mean symbolically. So, so what they remind us on and but but the photograph does not only really or it does not really show these things that we interpret the photographs shows something that we have learned to interpret and you know, influenced by our socio cultural environment and context and and and then we interpreted and give it some symbolic meaning. So this is actually where inquiry graphics and differ from other visual methods by acknowledging these different levels of interpretation and also following in a person's science triad. And so, so it, it links the meaning of the picture content to the meanings of any idea or concept that is being explored. And so I'd say that it encourages participants, but also learners because you can use it as a pedagogic method to think deeper to think in an analytical way and also think critically and and to consider the represented content and as an inspiration actually for ideas for kind of analogical and associated thinking. And so by, for example, by considering and its quality and and you know the social culture history of the things that are represented as an inspiration as a trigger for reflection. So I'm packing these triadic relations via in choreographic methods and analysis can actually help explore how we form how we translate understand negotiate and materialize concepts so that you can see the connection between you know images and materiality. So what I mean by concepts, you know, we all talk about these grand concepts and experiences that we call in a culture society economy and ideology politics justice, and so on so in that way, graphics of such as photographs can help actually connect these big seemingly abstract concepts to how they are represented or materialized by photographs. So basically what I was going to show how theoretical concept, let's say in education psychology, and I can give an example of constructivism could be explored by an image. And and and that that you know that can actually help participants or learners think deeper about the concept. Another thing I can say is that inquiry graphics invite participants and learners to pay close attention to the nuances of visual interpretation and treat them as triggers for held beliefs, you know, for uncovering, you know, subconscious beliefs and knowledge, prior knowledge, as well as for new insights that would not be possible actually without the image content. And that's why they can be useful for any researcher in any field and discipline as as you were saying earlier, or for any activity that aims to understand how participants or learners conceptualize and interpret a topic or an issue, or a challenge disciplinary concept. So there are particularly useful for example in participator and action research in reflective creative and critical thinking pedagogy and in order to illuminate you know differences and similarities in opinions and beliefs. Yeah, I mean, I think that inquiry element the thing you're talking about the triggering is really interesting because actually one of the things about object interviews is around how actually an object can kind of jar people into thinking differently or so that inquiry element I can see some real connections there. And so that's really interesting. Could you, I'm kind of interested in how that works in practice. Could you kind of maybe give an example to elaborate that a little bit more. Okay, so, um, so let's say you are interested in understanding how a group of people or your learners perceive and understand a concept or a problem or an idea. So, for example, okay, what is what is your experience of shopping, or what is their experience of personal identity, or, you know, now very topical of the coronavirus lockdown. Or, or of higher education because my field is educational research and higher education education in general, you would then engage this group of people in reflection or conversation around images that they, for example, created or they chose, but also around any kind of tailor made images of your own chosen, of your choice, you know, it's your own chosen topic. And that really, you know, relates or positions in choreographics very in a very close relationship with well known visual methods such as, you know, photo elicitation and photo voice. And so you would do that then you would talk with your participants or with with learners. My inquiry graphics elicitation interviews, or you can also organize in choreographics focus groups and with the questions that actually follow these triadic and inquire graphics model. And so that's where the inquiry graphics as the kind of species of both material methods and visual methods differing from from those other methods. And, or you can also think about how people can for example, capture and document their experiences over time. So they might use mobile phones for an image collection, or they make, they might want to make notes about those images, and that will all of course serve the purposes of the research or the purposes of teaching and learning. So in the educational pedagogical context, students will reflect on key concepts in their domain by choosing or creating an image and writing an analytical and effective narrative around that image. So this approach basically celebrates participants creative agency and their personal and prior experiences, you know, in their worlds and interpretations. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I can already see quite a lot of connections between what I've said around material methods and actually one that strikes me as one thing I think and written about material methods is the ways in which they can be provocative and how actually things can provoke people either in terms of what they say how they reflect what they write so I can see a lot of kind of synergies there already. Could you say a bit more about what what do you think the, you know, how do you think these methods relate to material methods. Yes, of course. So, so inquiry graphics. They do relate really well to material methods, I'd say, and they're part or species of material methods and this is because visual media are in close relationship with the world's materiality, and either as representing this materiality, or being connected to some materiality where it's organic or otherwise. And so such as hand, you know, paint, pencil, digital mouse or body movements. So, in that way, photographs, videos, sketches, paintings, graphic novels or comics can all be part of inquiry graphics methods and they basically capture they can capture not all of them but of course, you know, a lot of them. A lot of them can capture and do capture the world's external reality and materiality, as well as ideas, beliefs, imagination and metaphors. And this helps actually investigate this materiality and its relationship with the ideas they're connected with or affiliated with or that we actually connect this materiality to those ideas. And how we do that and why we do that. So, you know, it actually acts in different and versatile ways. In that way, inquiry graphics are related to material methods. I can just mention in one of my recent articles about critical media literacy, I actually explained this connectedness between world's external materiality and photographs. I'm interested, you mentioned sketching actually because the research center I'm in the Morgan Center, we had a resident sketcher and she worked with me on some things. It's really interesting way to think about materiality that. And so could you say then what you think the kind of, you know, possibilities and futures are for this method. Sure. Yes. And just to link to your comment. Exactly. And I think the role of people of artists, you know, who can sketch or as you say resident artists, resident sketches is there is a huge potential but it's still an underexplored and not that well understood area. So that would be a good way forward to think about that. So what are the possibilities or futures for inquiry graphics methods. Well, and I do hope I hope that there are many researchers and teachers who can relate, you know, to inquiry graphics and who would like to use, adapt, you know, appropriate these methods in their own context for their own purposes and in their own ways and principle in core graphics approaches are. This is this is actually a both both a conceptual and theoretical approach because it builds on on semi optic theory. It presents this image concept body mind abstract concrete relationship so that's more kind of conceptual and theoretical and it is an and it is a pedagogic and research method as well so there are inquiry graphics methods as I mentioned earlier I talked about them earlier. So possibilities to apply them are numerous and versatile, I think, not just in social sciences, but across disciplines and and and specifically as I mentioned before and participatory research but also in pedagogy. So many fields could be linked to these methods and approaches and you were talking earlier about material culture but there's also socio materiality and critical theory, social practice theory and identity theories, even things such as, you know, cultural historical activity theory, educational theories and more I think, I think, you know, this is, this is really the reason in a way, no and where you can stop so yes, let's do this together. Great yeah so I mean that leads on to then kind of the purpose of this in conversation series and I think in many ways it's partly for us to think about the possibilities of what we can do with material methods and how that can link to other methods. And I think that in a lot of what we're interested in developing is this idea of interdisciplinarity. So the conversations between disciplines about different kinds of methods, but also about developing connections was I said at the beginning about there's this kind of visual sensory, you know, thinking about actually material is also part of both of those and we've hopefully established today about the kind of connections between these inquiry graphic methods and material and you can start to see really interesting synergies and I think, rather than standalone it's through conversations that these connections and synergies emerge and how we can start to think about, you know, possible futures but also I think about establishing material methods as a, as a bigger area so although, as I said before people have been doing material culture research for a long time, we can start to think about what might a field of material methods look like and how might we develop this in collaboration and in discussion with different different kind of areas. Absolutely and what we are trying to do in our series is we're talking with, we want to talk with national and international colleagues whose work relates to material methods across, you know, visual, tangible, digital domains and how these different domains actually relate to material methods and so in that way we're developing and further we're developing further this field as you said of material methods and also network for and with anyone interested in these types of methods so this is one of our in conversation series or episode and, you know, this is a part of the creative and innovative methods strand of the National Centre for Research Methods and so we hope that it was useful and that you enjoyed it.