 Bonjour and welcome to the drum history podcast. My name is Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by mr. Demo Rabion and Saul Ramirez from as the drums welcome guys Yeah, I'm sorry, that's the only French I'm gonna do and I butchered it already so So this is a cool one guys because I think as the drums People in North America where I'm located In the drum world know about you guys and there's a lot of history and the company goes back I believe to 1927. Is that correct? That is correct. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so I mean that's you're coming up on a hundred years I mean, which is incredible. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much Yeah, five years apart from yeah, we are a century. I mean you're we'll round up Exactly. Yeah So but very interesting and and there's different generations of the company and everything but I will say right up front you guys are both in Demo as you put the commercial department and you guys both wear a bunch of different Hats and do different things with as but so We're gonna hear from both of you today, but to start Demo Why don't you jump in here and just tell us about the origins of the company and How it all started with as but in 1927 so it all started with Alfred and Simon Bouddard Which are the owners? So they are, you know the initials for Azba Asba, it's Alfred Simon Bouddard accessories They started to create accessories back in the day That was mostly for theaters, you know, like a trumpet You know mutes and all this kind of stuff and then slowly they started to create more into Precution, you know percussion world like congas and bongos. Of course, there was the war in between so you know, they were like a break and they were back After World War two with the making and building drums. So it's really it really is about accessories and You know everything about theaters and and and shows back in Paris There used to be in Limei Breven. It's really near Paris like the suburb And yeah, it was it was really like kind of Just a shot in the dark because Alfred was just, you know trying to it was a violinist. So basically it was not a drummer And so yeah, it's interesting and Being a musician, you know, I wanted to put his instruments Somewhere when he was, you know starting the rehearsal or finishing the rehearsal He needed like a stand, you know something to put, you know the violin and he created the first stand for a violin And a little by little Yeah, step by step it created more stands for, you know, all the accessories for guitars for Pretty much everything and friends of him, you know, we're requiring like for for more of this kind of hardware, you know You know accessories and so that was the first you know, that was the beginning of the the as by history and Interesting that's why the the a of accessories in as well Well, that's pretty common from from my memory of doing other episodes where like I'm gonna forget some but I believe like Tama drums out of Japan started With just making accessories and I think if I'm not mistaken I think Minel had something to do along those lines where it was companies that would make other accessories for other instruments and Then it sort of just works out over the years that they end up doing Drum stuff. So so to begin with though, it was no drums. It was just were they doing drum accessories or no drums or Drums. Yeah, it's just a room. Yeah. Yeah, no drums at all They're really like the first like kind of drum was like, I mean congos and bongo, you know, no bongo's and congas Sorry, that was the first three instruments, you know Yeah percussion instruments. Okay. Yeah, so yeah So back in that time period in like the 20s and things like that I assume a big job for drummers would be to be performing in those like cabarets and feeders and things like that Like here in America, it was a lot of a big deal was performing with The silent movies and adding the soundtrack. Was that going on in France? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, he was yeah They were they were doing the same. I mean, it was like a parallel universe because you know Really like the US were always You know the groundbreaking Innovation back in the day. They were you guys were always the first to create things But at this point We were doing also and building, you know, this kind of accessories for movies for theaters and We're in the same, you know, I think same momentum in a way. Yeah, that makes sense Now before we move even further What were you guys so here in in the States a lot of the factories pivoted to make other things during World War two It's a completely different situation For you guys in World War two as opposed to here where the there was no war on American soil or whatever What was the as but was the as the factory? Producing things during the war or was it shut down? No, they shut down. Yeah, okay That makes sense because here a lot of things would be instead of making Drums, you're now making the gauges that go on an airplane. Oh, you're now making War related items, which is an interesting subject. So All right, so we then get through the war. What happens from there? Because I mean then again, we're in the 40s Music has changed, you know, I mean jazz is everywhere. Where do we go from there? So, yeah, actually It's a what happened with a bad as bad after the war is that at 98 48 It's when they start doing drums actually and that's when they did the first snare that is it's called the snare reverberation That he was co-created with a teacher from the conservatoire de paris that the this guy was playing actually with Like our public and that's how you call it in French. That was actually like How do you call it? Gods, you know, the Republican guards that were playing like in snares, and it was quite groundbreaking back at the time because this snare had a Parallel, how do you call that in English? Yeah, yeah, and that was the beginning of the drum history with Asba actually And also because jazzy was coming a lot in in France and more in Paris There was more demand of this type of drums or or this or this market very beautiful drums I mean the snare is so cool-looking were they like making all the parts in house where they like creating a steel shell and all that stuff everything Everything from A to Z was French like literally that's Awesome, you don't hear about that nowadays of America or any country you don't really hear about Like car companies or something you don't hear about anything that's made all in one place That doesn't happen anymore really so not anymore. Yeah, was it really popular right off the bat? I mean were people did people love the drum and it become popular in France? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we have a lot of you know ads Convention and stuff all around music the the bebop the jazz was pretty much, you know more and more famous And we were you know European in a way like inspired by the American for a lot of stuff You know, you were talking about cars, but you know, we were inspired by cars even if we created the cars you guys took over and You know for for the movie industry the same but for music you guys really were the inspiration for us So that's the the funny things that you inspired as bad back in the day and As bad and inspired all the brands or the drum brands for innovation, you know and and you new things so that was you know, that was like, yeah really cool in a way Yeah, it's very like It's just interesting with the drum world like that like very mutual like You work on this and they build off each other Exactly. Yeah. Now was was Asba being sold. Let's say in the late 40s. I'm looking at your timeline here I should say to everyone listening Asba drums.com ASBA drums.com. There is a really cool timeline That that kind of breaks this all down very simply and there's pictures That'll be in the description. So if you're listening or watching this, you can check that out and follow along But was Asba being distributed in France and other European countries or had it made any Jump over to the United States at that point Well, there were there were we had distributors in Europe in Sweden. I believe But in the States that was totally different. We were shipping stuff and you know, that was not like Nowadays where you have, you know Transportation carriers like, you know, a lot of choice. Yeah, you can ship whatever you want. You know It was really different. What's kind of manual stuff, you know, it was really But really genuine too because people that would order as bad from the States Would really want the products, you know, we really want to be different and to have something Exotic in a way. So yeah, that was a different, you know Approach of the the business and if I can add also, it's more like in the 60s 70s when Asba was more present in the United States During the 40s and 50s. It was more like in Europe. We'll say perhaps But back at the time as I was present actually in almost 15 countries If I'm right all over Europe and the United States and Canada and even you could you could find some Asba products like in places like Brazil for the congas and And you can still find some like vintage Asba products even in Africa. No longer go We spoke with some guy that told us that he played a An Asba drum with the vintage asthma drum from the 60s in In Africa. Yeah. Wow That's cool, man. I mean, it's interesting how you find certain things where it was all the distribution It was like that's where it went at that point in time But like here, it's like There's certain brands that like it's really rare to find like like with a British brand like Heyman drums or something You don't really find them unless it's someone who specifically ordered it from that time And I guess similar with Asba, obviously, which I think it's even more uncommon to like go into a Like you don't go into like a thrift shop and you find because you find Ludwigs all the time at like a, you know Secondhand store. I'm trying to think what you guys probably have something different Where they'll just be on the shelf and it'll be so they don't know what they have and it's really cheap That doesn't happen with Asba drums that just kind of you know, someone sells their stuff. Here's an Asba, but Before we get to the 60s and 70s You guys have and I'm on your timeline here. Don't let me jump ahead But you started to work with like Elvin Jones and some great jazz players. How did that happen? We had a good team of I think 55 people working at Asba in France and We had people traveling to the States to show the products You know, because it was like we said before, you know a different world So you had to go there to bring a snare, you know, a pedal or something and just to show people, you know, this is a French brand and usually Bigger names like Ludwig would take over for example, the Caroline bass drum pedal from Asba and Would set it, you know and the other license So people would not know that that was a French brand They would know that we think, you know, it was like a Ludwig It's a bit of literally so so by this, you know, kind of stuff, of course We attracted more and more artists and Leader by leader we built, you know an audience and demand and so that's how We built also, you know, the the artist roster like for for Asba And it was from what we heard because you know, it's like back in now 50 years ago even 70 years ago back in the 50s and But we had great calls with the people that, you know are still there and know everything about the brand and they know more than anyone and They have great stories and they tell us how it this happened how I was talking about the Caroline bass drum pedal But they explained to us how they did that, you know, but these of course brought a lot of commitments to artists and These artists wanted to play as bad because it was cool. It was different And I think nowadays drummers and the community of drummers that are always looking for something different innovative and And that's why we have also artists from all over the world. So Yeah, yeah Yeah, I mean different we all love different, but it's got to be good, which clearly it was So that's interesting about the Ludwig thing because also Ludwig would be distributing like Pistey symbols and that's how that would get to the States and things like that. So it's an interesting They're huge. It's a distribution channel. Yeah, which makes a lot of sense. Let me ask you real quick Saul when did It switch from snare drum to making drum sets Well, actually it was almost in the same time because they were not doing really drums at all or snare drums So I think that everything has started with the snare the revelation snare and After that they start doing drums too because they knew that people were asking for drums too But that was also after the world war and during the 50s Knowing that the drums was like this drum fever, you know with jazz and all these new music genres that was coming They were coming to France. So They decided to start doing rounds back at the time that he was actually Alfred we if I'm right demo Mark Perrin that was yeah Mark Perrin Yeah, Jack Perrin was the nephew of Alfred Boudin. Jack Perrin. Yeah, and he's son Mark Perrin to cover the commercial stuff and and just you know, they the company just you know Strive to to do things better and better and At some point they were saying internationally and and shipping everywhere So so that's why you find like he was he was giving the example of the African Trumpset lost over there and just still being played. It's it's amazing But yeah, when I was living in the in the States, I Used to meet people And I used to go in stores where they had like literally the the drawer with you know With the Azba signs on it Just because they used to sell, you know, the parts for the pedals or this kind of stuff or lugs Wow And so so that there's a history then and of course we're talking about drum history. So that's perfect But there's there's a lot of stuff like that where you meet people and They know the drum the brand like by heart and it's it's amazing Was there a lot of competition in France are at the time were there other French drum builders Making drum sets Yeah, we had the cappella. Yeah, they were. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you know them Yeah, I Think we had another one But maybe not as you know popular as Azba, but I Assume there were other brands although maybe, you know artisan, you know, that yeah, but The bigger ones were as by and capital back at the time You had all the small ones that I don't really remember the name But like the ones that were representing more like the Azba Manufactured what that's but drum manufacturers back at the time was more as my capital and then you know you had the UK of course and Of there was very competitive. So and with the beaters and stuff, you know, it was even more than Hard but we were lucky enough to have you know Ringo playing the the congas at the Abbey Road studio The Azba congas and so that helped for the reputation of the brand knowing that one of the beaters was Just playing as by you know, even if he was not drums That was taste something recorded on the albums and it brings, you know some, you know something For sure. Yeah, I mean, it's the Ringo effect. It is like what he taught what they touch Yeah, just and it's it's funny you mentioned that because they're really cool-looking congas It's like the two tone. Yes the different colors. It's very very cool And that instrument that they play becomes a part of history without a doubt, you know, just across the world It becomes famous. So well well done I have to say that to the the owners like the old owners All right, so now it says on your timeline in 1956 as but installed a foundry in its workshop to produce shells and small parts in two ovens That doesn't happen today people aren't installing foundries You do that but with you know subcontractors with China, I mean Asia Yeah, but yeah, I want this not now. This doesn't happen Unfortunately, we lost that and then it says the derma plastic skins are manufactured in its workshop So you guys are making drum heads too. Yeah, everything. Yeah Like you said drum heads the hoops the lugs the Screws whatever you think about the parts on the snare drum. We would made it, you know Which is interesting because 1958 it says the derma plastic skins It's very debated, but the history of the plastic drum heads is kind of always Chick Evans Remo Belly who invented it but in 58 you guys were creating plastic drum heads So you guys figured it out pretty quick, you know and how to how to produce them. Yeah, that's true It's it's it was groundbreaking, you know, because Like you said, you know, we were like in advance a little bit in a way I don't believe all the competitors were making their own drum heads or maybe they would ask Remo or you know events to You know just to to stand the you know the brand's name like like nowadays Pretty much sure and also back at the time as that was pretty known because he was they were pretty Nobative with all the things that they were doing So it was actually one of the biggest image of the brand innovations that they were doing with each of the instruments So, yeah Well, yeah, they were ahead of their time me with a lot of things Absolutely, and it's a family brand which I think is neat. So it's still at this point remains a family brand through the 50s And I'm assuming did it ever get we'll we will get there But did it ever get sold or does it still remain a family brand? No, it it closed it closed down in 1983 And then it was a totally different. Yeah, that's a good it's a good run But we'll we'll we'll get there. So All right jumping ahead to the 1960s What happened in the 60s because on the timeline it's listed as the star years And just to start off it says the shells were converted to international measurements So explain that a little bit. We've heard it on various episodes, but explain that a little bit for starters Since we went making our own drum heads We had the you know in France Europe we use the metric and So, yeah, obviously our drums were also, you know metric. So it was kind of hard to To compete also with all the drum heads brands You know to swap drum heads you couldn't put a rainbow drum head on an Azba drum set Because it was a different sizes It was kind of like, you know, one inch different like what a half inch? I don't know exactly, but we had sure to get internationally, you know We had to set up something for the for the world really and That's why we took, you know the example of the American sizes and the inch and We started from zero at some points. So that's why sometimes in the vintage world of drums you find metric drum sets and That's really hard to to find nowadays with the with the origin original drum heads, you know It's it's pretty pretty heavy to find Actually something that happens pretty often well not pretty often But we do have this type of questions is that if we still do drum heads with metric Dimensions because there's still a lot of people here in France that do have like as old as a drum set from the 50s and 60s and We don't do metric drum hits anymore, but it's something that we have had before yeah I mean, it's come up in other episodes where it's it's the pre-international phase where now I mean Inches metric it could have gone either way, but like it it's one of those things where it had to be one type of measurement because when you get drums from Japan and you know different countries, it's it's We had to be unified so it makes sense because To pay for a specific custom head for one drum and each each different drum It's not practical. No, you know, but it was a big decision, you know, like changing all that I mean You know factory wise, you know that just thinking about changing everything and maybe stopping, you know to make the drum heads and I mean, it's it's a lot to reconsider at some point like in terms of business and And also in terms of you know, imagine like if today we would change if all the drummers in the world had to change The sizes of the, you know, the drum heads that would be a mess and that happened back in the day in France and people You know have bought a drum set would have to change either the drum set or just by you know the old drum heads and Quite tricky quite tricky Yes, but you had to do it. There has to be a point. Yeah, of course This is gonna be uncomfortable for a little bit, but we have to switch and I'm sure there are people who are like Why are we switching to their sizes? They should be switching to our sizes Yes, and then it's like you can't please everyone Yeah, it was a good strategy Decision back at the time because there was also the other brands that we were saying the French brands that they didn't adapt that much international measurements back at the time and They closed down actually in the 60s. I don't remember the names exactly but as that was actually staying more in the market because of the innovation and also the fact that he was Adapting more to the international market back at time. Yeah, all right So talk about though the drum sets and some highlights that happened in the 60s It says you guys had a new hi hat You had the two-tone congas made of Muhammad mahogany and lemon wood, which we talked about a little bit with Ringo But yeah, what's going on in the 60s? So we we built more and more drums more and more series We tried different wood textures different, you know Combination of woods, you know, because back in the day the most popular was poplar I mean maple poplar maple for the three ply So we we followed in a way the the trend and Ludwig was big on that And we kind of follow the the steps making drums that sound good with the kind of same Style, you know, but with our own way to to beat the drums. So that was Again two different words But the same vision, you know, trying to get a sound that just stands out But also the finish, you know, that stands out. So we tried different things and there was More at the end of the 60s that we are we were trying to get Even different texture like the metal drum set All that I mean that that came after but that was one of the priorities, you know back in the 60s End of 60s 70s. It was really to to stand out and to find innovating products And use sound in a way because, you know, we had everything to do it and we had the chance to do whatever we wanted. So Yeah, here we go. When you make everything yourself, you can do whatever you want and Exactly experiment and try very cool things. The metal ones are awesome I mean if you Google like I'm looking over here at my monitor if you look at vintage asba drums I mean, they're just they look Well made like they I've unfortunately never had the pleasure of playing one because like I said, they don't come up I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio and there's not asba drums all over the place here, but it's just it's a beautiful drum set Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. We pay attention to details. It's it's true We really pay attention to that And you know, we have specificities for each drum set You know, the choice of the tension rods everything is, you know, it's thought like all the time like we always Questions ourselves just to make sure is this good or it is going to walk, you know, because Of course, we like what we're doing, but do people like it to you know, that's a good question Yeah, we want to make sure that the client in a way the drummer is happy with what he got because making it, you know making a drum set is Nowadays you can buy, you know, like whatever Shell, you know, like Keroshell or whatever and you can make your own drum set You can paint it if you want in whatever colors But the craftsmanship is here, you know, in-house with our secrets of, you know, how to make the drums and and that's why Usually we invite people to come over here and to show them, you know, how we make the drums So it's very important to notice that it's all about, you know, the secrets in a way Yeah, so the Caroline pedal pedals are Deceptively easy concept, you know what I mean, where you just you play it, it's a spring it pulls But there's a lot of innovation that can happen in pedals So tell us a little bit about the Caroline pedal What made it special and unique? And then we can get into the Ludwig stuff a little more as well But tell us about the Caroline pedal Well, yeah, in the 60s, actually, the pedal was made with the collaboration of the Neymar That it's a jazz drummer here in France And he was pretty close with Asba back at the time So he was helping a lot Asba in the conception of new products And the Caroline pedal back at the time was pretty innovative in comparison to other pedals With the system that he has And he was actually one of the things that made Asba what it is now Is actually the iconic product of the brand Even if Asba before was already in like in the United States from other countries The Caroline pedal was really the product that was being cheap almost everywhere Well, at least in the countries that they had back in time And that really made the image of Asba in the drummers in the United States, for example That's why they were so well, we had big named drummers back at the time Playing in the Caroline, like Mitchell And then, well, later we can explain the thing with Ludwig But yeah, it was quite a huge thing There's a little picture of it that has like arrows pointing to all the like features And it's things where it's like heavy duty, super wide footboard For maximum comfort and durability It's like you look at older vintage gears sometimes And it's like really thin and kind of like You can break it Yeah, you're gonna break it Like we all have feet that are like, you know, normal size feet Why not have it be a normal size pedal and a toe stop? And I like how it has the top mounted dual clamps for securing the base drum hoop So you can you can attach the where it attaches to the hoop But you're messing with it on the top as opposed to the bottom Where you're like cutting your knuckles and stuff So pretty cool It's a fun fact because I talked to Daniel Hume Not a long time ago and it was explaining to me about the Caroline that Basically, he wanted to to create a pedal that is very convenient That was the main purpose of this pedal was convenience, you know You don't need to you don't need any, you know, key key tunes Nothing, you're just with your fingertips You just, you know, you adjust the pedal as you want for your feet For your I mean, it's it was convenient and it still is Yeah, and for for this time, you know We are talking about 70 years ago, 50 years ago, sorry It's super modern, like even nowadays You can't find a pedal or another brand doing this And it's quite, you know, fun I mean, yeah, it's really different. So yeah I mean, I have one here, by the way, next to me. Oh, cool. Yeah, I mean, we got on everything. Oh, wow. So for people listening, he's showing the box. If you're on YouTube, you can see it. But man, that is awesome. Yeah, yeah, I'm sitting here and then put outside. So this is still being, is this new? This is a new one that's still being produced. Yes, yes, yes. It's the ratio. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, convenience. Who are we kidding? We all want to it's it's not about having Oh, it's not over engineered. It's not like there's not too much stuff. And and there are great pedals. I have some where you have to use the drum key to tighten at things. But come on, it's easier to just use your fingers. Yeah, I mean, like you say, it's not rocket science. You know, they just back in the day just thought about what is more convenient? What can you do with your fingers just to adjust the pedal? So clearly it caught on to the point where Ludwig, you know, it gained Ludwig's attention, which Ludwig's history really in the big picture dates back to their bass drum pedal. This episode is brought to you by Dixon drums. I recently got a Dixon little rumor drum set and it is great. I wanted a high quality compact kit to fit in my living room with a small footprint. The little rumor has been perfect for what I needed. It's an affordable kit that comes in multiple finishes and configurations. I got satin black coal lacquer with the little rumor hardware pack and cases. And I'm loving the strength and lightness of the stands and the quality of the pedals and the comfort of the throne. It's just awesome. Learn more at PlayDixon.com and find your local Dixon retailer to get your own Dixon drums. Also, I posted an unboxing video of me opening my Dixon little rumor drum set and I set them up and I played them and gave kind of review on them. So you can check that out on the Drum History Podcast YouTube channel or at the link in the description of this episode. So thank you to Dixon for sponsoring this episode. You talked about it before, but maybe is there any more info about that relationship with Ludwig and did it go well and yeah. So we unfortunately, we don't have much information and, you know, it's it's quite hard because some people are not from this world anymore. And you can't find, you know, unfortunately some information. But but we know for fact that Ludwig was had a real interest into the pedal. And, you know, they found it very modern. And and that's why they, you know, they just added the the item to to the catalog because that was something really new. And and they saw like a sound, I think a thousand a year. Like, you know, they, yeah, a thousand a year. Pretty good. Yeah. I mean, you know, so. So, yeah, we don't have much more information, unfortunately, for for literally. And I don't know how it stopped to, you know, I don't know. OK, something maybe Ludwig, I'm totally just making this up, but maybe Ludwig came out with their own next generation of a pedal. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's possible. Sometimes, you know, that's the fun fact in in the, you know, the drum community and everyone talking, you know, sometimes people think they know sometimes, you know, you're why you're wrong. Whoever is right or wrong. This is history. And, you know, for example, with the symbol boomstand, you know, the boomstand was created by Asba. And I know that I'm saying that right now and some people are driving and they're like, no, that wasn't as bad. That was they would say or Yamaha or exactly. Yeah. But really, like the telescopic, I don't know if you use this terminology, you know, telescopic. That was Asba. And then Tamar added the weight on the arm just for the balance. But we were the first. This is drum. Wow. And I know that I imagine the person in the car outraged now going. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. For sure. He hates me. It's fine. Yeah. It's OK. No, it's all right. That's so cool to hear that because it's we're piecing it all together. I think every episode of the show kind of pieces a little bit more together. And I think that's awesome to hear that. So tell us about the 70s. Saul, why don't you take this one? Well, for the 70s, as I was saying before, well, the pedal, the car pedal was actually done in the late 60s. So what's more during the 70s, where Asba was even growing even more internationally. Well, the information that we had for back of the time is that Asba in there was like selling, I don't know, almost like 500 kids per year. And like half will be between Europe and United States. But yeah, the main thing that they were doing was the pedal, actually, during all the 70s. Then besides that, I'm not sure if you have something to add. In the 70s, the metal drum set was the groundbreaking innovation. They actually created these kits just as, you know, just it was a shot in the dark again, like they wanted something different. And the band Magma. Do you know the band Magma? It's a French brand. Yes. Christian Vendor. Yes, Christian Vendor. Vendor, exactly. Yeah. He he was just entering the Asba, you know, artists roster and just he wanted something different. And so he asked the guys, you know, the decent guys, how to build a drum set with a chrome all over, you know, as a finish. But it didn't go well. And he wanted something like very boomy, you know, that stands out. And so they created the metal drum set, like full of metal. And that was really like the start, you know, of something big because we were the first brand to create metal drum sets, like full metal shells, you know. And that was like metal from, you know, Paris area. It was everything was French again. So we were in a different world from that point. It was like very, you know, it was like. Future futuristic in a way, totally. And and people were just blown away because it sounded super good. As a matter of fact, like some artists in the States that are nowadays endorsed by us, like Brian Irving, for example, is an artist, he's a friend, and he had the Asba metal drum set from the 70s. So, you know, this kind of stuff that just brings back memories. And there's so much to say about these kids. I mean, it's it's one of a kind. And and we we we're doing it again nowadays. So that's another story. But yeah, yeah. The research and development that you guys would do as like like someone's job is to just kind of develop new products. It's just wild. I mean, the amount of stuff that you guys would be producing in the time and effort you could put into that. So the company was clearly successful. Oh, yeah. Making enough money to support people doing this and selling the drum set. Yeah, pretty amazing. It metal drum sets, man. Those are nowadays they're relatively common. And there's like Q drums with the very recently late great Jeremy Berman. Of course. Yeah. It's it's become more more popular now, obviously. But it had to be pretty mind blowing to see this back in its original days. You know, that's true. Yeah, yeah. When you think 50 years ago was there and still here nowadays and to talk about Q, we had the chance to meet Jeremy at Nam show 2020. And, you know, I was a big fan of the company because of the artists. First of all, and, you know, when I met Jeremy and Max, they were so happy to meet us because they knew us back. Of course, because of the metal drum set and all that. So that brings back what I said before. Like we were inspired by a lot of brands and some brands, you know, maybe like inspired by us, too. And it's good to see that, you know, the main purpose of that is just to have something that sounds great and that is well made. And and yeah, that that is all really like it's happiness. So yeah. But we're now at a point where everything's going great. Metal drums, you guys are making everything. It's amazing. But pretty soon thereafter in the early 80s, 83, maybe just describe what happened because it's not uncommon. This is very common of a thing where the world changed them with drums. But what led to being kind of on top of the world with the, you know, drum manufacturing in a big, huge, successful company with a bunch of employees? What happened to lead up to closing in 1983? They had different reasons back at the time. And one of the main ones was the competition. It's when there were a lot of Asian brands coming in the market and having like cheaper drums and as back at the time, wanted to still have these, how do you say it, workshop production in the sense that they didn't want to have big mass production or they didn't have the means to have it yet. So they didn't take the right decisions back at the time to do more. Well, more drum sets in a bigger high scale, like Asian brands back at the time. And that's what it led to a closing. There was also other reasons before that, but mainly it was because of the competition back at the time. Yeah. And the company was, you know, not modernizing the machine. And everything. So it was like South said really well. It was different, you know, circumstances that, you know, brought the company to close down. But mainly, yeah, the competitivity was was a big thing. Like, really, you would get a drum set from from Japan for 2000. You know, and we get a NASBA drum set for seven thousand seven thousand. So, you know, you can't compete. What do you do? Yeah. Yeah. And still to this day, the world has changed, obviously. There aren't really companies with a foundry installed in there, you know, warehouse, like workshop. And I get that, though, the desire to remain boutique. It's almost like as but could have gone the way of like Q drums or one of those where it was small and they made less kits. But you're so invested, but you've been producing drums for so long. It's almost like there's no you can't turn it into five employees from how exactly you had and which is very sad. But I'm sure I'm sure it was a hit to like the region where the factory was located. I mean, I'm sure people lost their jobs. Yeah, it had to be a bad bad time for sure. Absolutely. And I actually. I met one of the guy that both the all the modes, you know, the the pedals modes and pretty much everything. And he sold it to another guy that melts like literally melt or everything, all the steel and stuff. Just so like, yes, horrible story. So that's why when you see the pedal, like I have the pedal here, too. You know, you see this nowadays and this is exactly the same pedal that nowadays that before, you know. So yeah, this is a lot of research and development, like you said. And it's also, you know, kind of a pride to be back with it because we bring memories also back, you know, to the nostalgic people and to Germans and new generations. So so, yeah, that was a kind of a very messy era for people. Yeah, but for everyone. I mean, yeah, everyone was like so like Slingerland went out of business. Exactly. Yeah. It continued on with like the name sort of, you know what I mean, but like real the real deal, everyone was hurting. So that is very sad, obviously. But on your website, it says 1984 to 2015 in the cupboards, but also on stage and in the studios. People are still playing them. They still have the older kits still sound great, still very collectible. So what happened then in 2016 when you guys come back? Like what's happening from 2016 until today? So Guillaume Pornet, who's the owner of Asba, bought the rights in 2015 or 2016. 2016, yeah. 2016, yeah. Basically, it was just, you know, prototypes just to see, you know, how this adventure, you know, how far this adventure can go. You know, let's give a try. And the thing is they did try some drum shows in Paris and bringing this logo back to the audience and to the drummers. You know, it was just, you know, it just happened. And people were just super happy to see the brand back. And the commitment to order new Asba drum set was also the reason why they started to build drums and to hire people and just to make it, you know, to revive it. It can happen. Yeah. And yeah. So yeah. And the thing is that also during all these years that I was not active from 83 until 2016 and 17, there was still like a big community of Asba lovers back at the time of people that was actually buying Asba kids like second hand, second hand Asba kids. And this brand was still living somehow, but in the vintage drummer community here in France and all over Europe. And actually when the brand came out again and well, they start like opening or we start opening new shops all over Europe. There were actually a lot of shops that already knew us and they were actually surprised that we were there and they actually love our brand, just not even friends. Like we have some shop, like some partner shops in the Netherlands that they actually worked pretty well with us and that they had a lot of like vintage Asba drum kits from the 70s. And they were even at some point, they knew even more about us about some part of the Asba history during the 60s. They were little lovers. Yeah. Yeah. They're very unique. I think for speaking on behalf of like an American as an American drummer, it's just cool, a French drum company. It's very it's very because for us, it's like, you know, I don't want to say exotic, but you know what I mean, it's like a different. We're used to what you're used to what you see. We're used to Ludwig and the Japanese brands, Tomapurl. We're used to all those. So it's really cool to see a French brand with such high quality. The logo is super cool. I think the badge and the logo is awesome. I think that's probably that doesn't affect the sound, but I think it's really cool. Well, it's the whole thing, you know, it's like it's it's chic, you know, in a way it's like kind of elegant and very elegant. That's a good way to put it. I imagine now, though, there's not a factory where you guys are making your own drum heads and doing all the things that are nowadays would be unnecessary to some degree. It I'm sure it's modernized a little bit in that regard. For sure. Yeah. And now we we stopped making our own drum heads, you know, we we have suppliers for the shares. Actually, for for the story, we we were supposed to have everything in house to build our own shares, everything, you know, but covid happens and happens, sorry. And so this this changed everything. And to be honest and fair with you, like, I was at Namsho 2020 and we were, you know, I mean, we were signing contracts with stores and, you know, we were going to sell drums and big drums. That was the beginning, like really, like Namsho, that was the bootstrap of the future for the brand. And it just disappeared in the second. And at some point, we had to choose, you know, either we invest into everything, the machines and everything and people to build your own shares in house or, you know, you just you just subcontract with all the, you know, suppliers. So that's what we did. Yeah. But that having been said, the shares are just our specificities. It's only as by, you know, and sure suppliers, they just make shares for us and no one else. So that's the very important thing, meaning that one day we would have everything under the same roof here in Lyon and the shares would be, you know, they would remain the same. So same sound. Yeah. Everything will be the same. So so that's very important to to a highlight because people usually say, you know, it's not made in France or, you know, it's crap because it's not you're lying or whatever. But, you know, you can't I mean, the hardware is made in Taiwan for every brand. So you at some point, even if it's made in, you know, whatever, UK or the States or Japan, there's always, you know, a supplier somewhere. So no, making shells or having a distributor like Keller or something and it is your specific brand. That comes up all the time. I think people know that now that it's your mole. It's your it's your specific formula for your shells. And but still in the future, go for it. Good for you guys for your shells and house. Yeah, that's the thing. We we we have the drum builders behind the walls there. But actually, so unfortunately, I speak for I speak for them. And, you know, they know how to build drugs. They know how to make shares. They know everything about drugs. So and they can't wait for for that to happen. You know, it's a it's a matter of timing. I would say timing instead of time because the company is is going well, despite the, you know, the whole world going crazy. But we're still setting and and, you know, we hope to to set even more and and to educate people about the brand. So well, you guys are great ambassadors of Asba to reach people in America, but also people listen around the world. And I think this has been a really cool look at it, because I did not know I mean, I've looked at your timeline on your website, but I did not know a lot of this. And and there's just something very cool. And I think the fact that it's a French drum manufacturer, even French cars back in the day, something very special and unique about the manufacturing and the design, which it's it's all it's it's it's own thing, French manufacturing. So I think it's really cool that you guys are are back. So congrats to you guys and the whole team. So much. Thank you. Either of you guys can do it. But why don't you tell people where they can find you online? Social media, all that good stuff. If your personal stuff, too, if you want to tell them to follow you, whatever, now's your chance to tell us. Yeah, well, Asba drums. ASBA drums is the the main, you know, hashtag to follow on Instagram and Facebook. We are on YouTube pretty much. I think every sound, I think all the other stuff. We're even on TikTok. What are you talking? Yeah. Well, we're not really talking, but we have a TikTok account for the company. It's all dancing to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, we have to, you know, to be, you know, to fit this one. Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, I mean, if we could avoid all this marketing, you know, stuff on social network, we would avoid it. And we would focus on other stuff, maybe more important. But nowadays, you need to be seen and you need to be visible everywhere. And people are just on the phone. So if you're not, you know, making people aware of Asba, you know, being back or being new for the new generation, then, you know, you you get everything wrong. So that's why we push toward, you know, more visibility and artists, you know, endorsements and and all that. Like, you know, John J. Robinson, for example, has his snare drum signature model. And this is something, you know, like, you know, people are not maybe aware of that. But we need to to mention it somehow. Yeah, that's a great one. And you have a cool video on your YouTube channel of the Drumeo guys opening J. R. Robinson's snare drum, which I mean, let's rewind a little bit. And maybe before we wrap up, what what happened with that partnership with him? Because I mean, he's an American icon record on every album and recording ever. How did that come about working with him? Well, basically, that was all about the Caroline bass drum pedal. I contacted him about the the pedal because he used it for most of his, you know, let's say, 70s to 80s recordings. And he loves the pedal, like he really is really dear to the pedal. He recorded the the Michael Jackson of the world and bad with his pedal. And I didn't know that. And, you know, for me, for us at Azba, it's a big thing because you wouldn't think this French product, you know, traveled, you know, the Atlantic Ocean to the ocean and to be played there and recorded. I mean, it's amazing. You know, there's so much, I mean, this is this is awesome for us. And so it was really dear to the pedal. But back in the day, that was back two years ago. I think already we didn't have the pedal yet. And so, you know, we did some while that was during COVID. So we did some videos. We called each other many times and we ended up creating the top plug, which is the snare drum with the fluttered lugs. We had the idea and we suggested JR to be the ambassador for this specific snare drum. And he accepted, you know, he's a DWU guy. We all know that. Yeah. But he can assign, you know, snare drums, the one he wants, really. So he was happy to contribute to Azba's history and to move forward with us, you know. So any kind of way to to play the Caroline bass drum pedal again. Yeah. And the double, also the double pedal. Yeah, cool. We have double Caroline. Well, we have double Caroline, so the twins. We have this in mind for for later. I mean, sooner than later. But but that's a thing that really is requested by a lot of people. Cool thing. I have the prototype of the JR top plug in here. So here I'm showing the prototype of the JR snare. Well, we cannot see exactly the logo in here because it's a prototype. But you can see the lugs, but it's a pre-system flow system that you can just if you have a key, you can just move it each log in the in the ring. And it's for both sides, actually. So you can find a lot of sounds, different sounds with this snare. Like something that we say pretty often is that this snare can replace couple of snares depending on what sound you're looking for. And also, well, one video that we will be did online, that is pretty good, explain everything. It's the video from sounds like a drone about this snare. Yeah. So, yeah, this is a prototype and pretty cool. But this is not the real color. This is a black color. The real one is more like chocolate. I will say, perhaps, yeah, this was the first one. So if you're looking to do the first stop log snare, that's awesome. Yeah, the sounds like a drum video was very cool. I was watching that last night, Ben and Cody over there, they did a great job with it. I mean, but what you guys said about, you know, you wish you could just make drums and not worry about the marketing stuff as much. But this is our world, everyone's online. Literally what you're doing right now with me is to reach people and tell them. It's like, if you don't have commercials or stuff, people think you don't exist. It's just how the world is now. So, like I said, I think you guys have done a very good job as ambassadors. I'll put the the links in the description for everything as but on that note, guys, I think this was a great one and I'm honored to have you on the podcast and to, you know, free to share the story with everyone else. And before we before I forget, I want to mention I have had at least two people contact me and say, hey, you should do an episode on Asba. So thank you to my friend, Nate Testa, who's the official snare geek. Yeah. On Instagram, who, man, Nate is killing it. I mean, he has a huge following now. I remember hanging out with him, eating pizza for breakfast at the Chicago drum show and like we were still trying to grow it and Nate is killing it. So and then also Eric McKnight, who suggested it, I believe through my Patreon account. So thank you to Eric and Nate, who both requested Asba episodes. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, totally. Well, DeMo, Saul, I've had a pleasure talking to you guys and thank you so much for being here and hopefully we can meet someday at a drum show or something like that. Are you doing the Nam show or Chicago drum show? I'll be at Chicago. I've never been to Nam. Nam is like the other side of the country for me. And it's like so far. Yeah, it's just so expensive. And I'm like, I go and I walk around for three days and leave and I'm like, all right, well, yeah, now I'm sick. Yeah, I feel too much noise. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So absolutely. Well, thank you guys for being here. I thank you. Likewise. Thank you for letting us consideration. We really appreciate that.