 It's Wednesday. It's 11 o'clock. It's August the 18th, 2021. Welcome to What Now America. I'm Tim Apachele, your host. Today's title is Kabul Airport Exit, worse than Saigon. And, you know, I don't know who's of you that are watching this show. If you remember on April 29, 1975, the mad dash off the roofs of the Saigon Embassy, the U.S. Embassy, the rooftops where people were lined up on the stairs, on the roof, all the way down the stairs, trying to desperately get on a helicopter, one of the last few helicopters out of Vietnam to exit South Vietnam to leave the Vietnam War that the United States was in for many, many years. Ultimately, President Gerald Ford was able to evacuate 130,000 South Vietnamese. Now, fast forward to Monday, where we saw an airport, a tale of two scenes at an airport. One side had a commercial side separated with barbed wire and the other side was the military side. Somehow, those Afghanis who are desperately trying to get out got onto the military side. And what we saw was a mad dash towards a C-17 cargo plane. They got on the wheel wells, they got on the sides, and they literally stayed and clung onto life in a desperate attempt to get out of Kabul. And what we saw later, unfortunately, was bodies falling from the air, from that C-17. What a desperate attempt, what a desperate image, something that we never thought we would see since these 1975 images of people trying to get out of a country that United States was responsible for occupation and trying to win a war that was not winnable. So, I'd like to go to my guest today. We have Jay Fidel, Cynthia Lisa and Claire and Winston Welch. Welcome, everyone. Morning, Tim. Jay, I'm going to you. We saw President Biden get on the national podium and basically go through quite the detail of why America is leaving Afghanistan. And I thought, personally, he did a good job doing that. But where he failed miserably is how we're getting out of Afghanistan. And I think what I saw was a lot of finger pointing. We had the State Department point the finger at the Department of Defense. We had the Department of Defense point the finger at the State Department. We had both those departments point the finger at the intelligence agencies. And we had President Biden pointing the finger at the former president of Afghanistan and the failure of the troops, Afghani army to stand up and hold territory. A lot of finger pointing. So my question to you is, did you ever imagine we'd see scenes worse than what we saw back in Saigon? Remember last week we talked about that and we said chances are we'll never see anything that bad. Well, here we are. Well, we just we did discuss it before and we knew there was going to be a problem. We knew the Taliban were moving fast. Well, we I mean, you know, the participants of this show, we knew the Taliban moving faster than we expected than anyone expected. And we knew that we're going to be tactical strategic errors in terms of removing people. And we wondered why it hadn't been accomplished already. And part of the president's speech was to try to explain why it had not been accomplished already. And that was pretty weak. And I think there were two reasons that he advanced. One is that some people didn't want to leave. I don't buy that. And the second reason was that the Afghan government told him that it would look bad. It would be a concession of defeat, which I don't buy that either. They were close to abandoning abandoning anyway. But that's all he could offer. Fact is it was badly executed. It was a flawed execution. It was a the principle was OK, but the execution was terrible. And the execution doesn't stop at removing people by the way. It stops with all the other forward motion kinds of things he was talking about. Like he said, you know, we're going to we're going to watch them. We're going to watch. Well, we have no intelligence apparatus in the country after we leave. So how is he going to watch them? But from the air, you can't possibly know what's going on from the air. And what is he going to do if something goes wrong after we leave, you know, throw bombs at them? If we don't have anybody in the ground, we're not going to be able to do very much. So it goes back, I suppose, to the question of whether we should leave at all. And if we're going to leave, how we're going to leave. And I think this really turned out to be a mess. And I agree that there's a lot of finger pointing. And we're going to discuss that in tomorrow's show, you know, America finding its way. Exactly, you know, what happened in the government? What happened to him that this should should have happened to him. But suffice to say for now, the execution was flawed. And so far, the result has been dire. I think, however, I would add to that is that somehow he has, he has improved the situation. He has brought some troops in. He's got a reasonably orderly process going on right now. And the Taliban have said they're not going to stand in his way, at least to a certain point. I mean, it troubles me, they said, well, well, that anybody out of the country, as long as the U.S. has given him papers. Well, I'm not so sure the U.S. has given him papers. So, you know, that's a false promise. Let me run this past you. Let me run this past you. You know, I mean, he's sending in 6,000 U.S. troops to secure the Kabul airport. General Milley said they need to expand the perimeter on that airport, control the airport. But here's the deal. If you're an interpreter that's worked with the United States government, with the Army for years, and you happen to be in some other province, how do you get to the Kabul airport? There's, you know, you know, you're lost. Okay. So this is, this is a failed strategy then. I mean, well, as far as those people are concerned, it wasn't that we're going to help our allies just in Kabul anyway. Most of them, a lot of them have come to Kabul anyway, and they're at Kabul and they're trying to, you know, get to the airport, but the roads are blocked. And when they get to the airport, they find the Taliban is at the gates controlling who goes in. So, you know, you're right. The Taliban is trying to act mature about this. And people question that. There are, you know, stories leaking out to suggest that that's just poppycock. They're not being, you know, sincere. They're not being civilized at all. But there are certain things that Biden may be able to use to bring them along into the civilized discussions. You know, for example, somebody is stepping up. I forget his name is stepping up. They brought one terrorist back, one old Taliban guy back, Abdul, somebody, and he's supposed to be taking, taking power now and speaking for the government. And the government had a press conference yesterday and assured people they would not be as bad as everybody thought. Whether that comes true or not, we're going to find out today, the day after, it could be that they're killing people left and right. And we just don't know yet. The press is really not on the ground. The press is not, you know, if I were in the press, I would, I wouldn't leave that place immediately because the press, you know, first thing we do is we kill all the press. So, I mean, it's, we don't know the facts yet. And it's like you have to stay glued to the two to know the facts. But there is a big question as to whether the assurances of sincerity by the Taliban are true or just, just make believe. All right. Thank you, Jay. Hey, Cynthia, Jay just pointed out, and rightfully so, that the Taliban assures the Western nations, the United Nations, all nations that this is a Taliban 2.0. It's new and approved Taliban. They're not, they've learned their lessons from the first crack at the government of Afghanistan. You believe that? And then my second question is, if they're not to be trusted, how will that impact women and children of Afghanistan? We've already seen them break the agreement that Donald Trump and his administration put together. You know, in my mind, if they'll say whatever they want to say, just so the United States will get out of there and then they'll be the way they wish to be. But I don't know that for a fact. But what are your thoughts about, is the Taliban government, the new government to be trusted? Absolutely not. 100% no. You have to look at their track record. And then, you know, that's like believing in someone that you know is a murderer when they say they're not going to hurt you when they're standing there with a gun in their hand, you know? So to me, that's just stupid. And what we're doing is we're playing into their hand. And I can understand that Trump was whatever enough to fall for their lies. But we Americans know better. And so there's just no reason on earth for us to say, oh yeah, well, we'll give them a chance. Well, Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State, he negotiated that agreement with the Taliban. You know, we should look at that agreement because there weren't provisions of how to implement it. And clearly the Taliban coming in and the way they have, you know, in a matter of days, surprised and flat footed everyone. So I'd say look at the details of that agreement because I assure you they weren't in there. Well, the whole thing is, we didn't really get anything basically from this agreement, this agreement that they made. They got 5,000 prisoners, 5,000 prisoners that the military had been spending 20 years rounding up and putting into prison. They just let them all out. So he increased their forces and then took away from what, 15,000 troops to 2,000 troops overnight and left every single base in the country vulnerable. Well, most importantly is the airport, the other airport. Exactly. And really, all they needed to do was come in and take one base because once they got one base, they had firepower, they had air power, they had everything they needed. And from there, they could just run across the whole country. Well, this is the thing, found flat footed, caught flat footed is not a true statement to make in this. The intelligence agencies are all over the news talking about how they've been warning this administration for months that this was going to happen. It's not new news to them. Why is it new news to the administration? That's the part I don't get. That's just like a dangerous lack in communication between our intelligence agencies and our government. And that is the first thing I think everybody needs to fix. And I'm very worried because we won't have boots on the ground. And I just want to, in the words of Afghan women, and I want you to know I'm wearing this hijab today to show that I'm standing in solidarity with all Afghan women that are at risk right now. Here we go, in their own words. And this came from the State Department. Okay, so this isn't just a news thing or whatever. It's from the State Department. Because of the Taliban, Afghanistan women have become a jail, Afghanistan has become a jail for women. We haven't got any human rights. We haven't got the right to go outside, to go to work, or to even look after our children. Next one. And that was, I will never be able to pronounce their names, so I'm not going to do it. Next one. Approximately 80% of women and men agreed that women should be able to move about freely and that the teachings of Islam do not restrict women's human rights. Physicians for human rights, women's health and human rights in Afghanistan. And that was their comment. And it goes on and on and on like this. So now we've heard the Taliban, this is the thing. This is what we've heard from their statement from their press conference. Oh, we're going to let women work. Oh, we're going to let them do whatever they want. From a woman that I know who has boots on the ground in Afghanistan, women's businesses are being closed and shuttered. Women that work there are being hauled out. Most women are terrified and just hiding in their houses, praying for deliverance. And a number of them have gone out and bought burqas just in case. So they would be safe at least, which is just, you have to go backwards 20 years for them. Must be just so painful beyond the fear. Let me ask you this. I mean, again, the issue here is not why we're leaving. I think, you know, 70% of Americans think it's after 20 years, it's time to leave. Maybe it's depending on what poll you watch. I've heard 62%, 70% of them are hearing different numbers. So the issue is not why we're leaving, it's how we're leaving. Now, you're mentioning things here about how women are going to be put back 20 years back in the first regime of the Taliban. Is that a surprise to you knowing full well that the United States was going to exit Afghanistan? No, so why is it a surprise to the administration and our government? Why? Because we knew that's what these people do. They're lying to us in their press conferences. But when you hear the on the street interviews that are happening and they talk to the Taliban, there was one that was on CNN just yesterday. And these people say we're going to follow Islam. Now Sharia law. So, you know, yeah, the Muslim women in Afghanistan have not needed to live under Sharia law. The Taliban lives under Sharia law. Sharia law supposedly says that they can't go out in public. They have to hide their heads. They have to, you know, hide their whole bodies even. That's what Sharia law says. The Taliban is known for taking young girls as young as 10 years old and marrying them, making them become wives or slaves until they're old enough to be wives and their children. That is terrifying. And every mother in Afghanistan now is terrified for their children, terrified for themselves, terrified for their children. And we as Americans, in my mind, we as Americans need to step up and make the government understand. Okay, time out. Step up. We've just stepped up for 20 years. How is it that we step up and prevent this in your mind? I mean, where I was going with that was step up in the same way that like you just said, he went and rescued. How many did you say I can't remember the number of people from the South Vietnamese that 130,000? 130,000. Okay, so if he could do it then back then we've got way better technology now. We've got way better air support. We are back in control of the airport. Now they need to start in my mind, they need to go out into the public and get these people and escort them to the airport if that's what they need to do. Okay, great. Thank you because I want to take that point to Winston. Winston, the timeline to exit Afghanistan is August 31st. General Milley this morning just addressed that date again. So far we've gotten out a couple thousand people and it's taken a number of days to do that. There's an estimated 60, 80,000 people that were our interpreters, they were truck drivers, people of NGOs that worked with the United States government. I mean, there are literally thousands of people in this country that aren't in Kabul, Kabul, but they're all throughout the out of the provinces. I guess I go to the question is number one, is August 31st a realistic date to get out that many people. And secondly, our commitment was to get out our interpreters, the truck drivers, those that worked with those Afghanis that worked with the United States government. But the condition was that they'll just have to be at the Kabul airport. They're scattered throughout the entire country. And there's roadblocks, there's checkpoints that they have to pass through to get to the Kabul airport, which is Afghanistan's a huge country. Again, is this a flaw in the plan of Exodus or is there something I'm not seeing here? There's a lot we're not seeing. What we are seeing is just tragic, but no matter how you slice it or dice it for these poor people that live in this nation that are going to be subject to this medieval repressive violent religion against at least half their population, women and everybody else, if you have any liberal mindedness at all. It's just a tragic place to be right now. And Americans, honestly, can you think of the trillions of dollars that thousands of lives have been lost from the American side, not including the Afghanistan side, which is obviously on a much larger scale. And now it all seems for naught. And you would have to be very disheartened if you're a veteran, but maybe others might be feeling like, yeah, my buddy lost his life there. And there's got to be a lot of confusing emotions all the way around. But the end of the day, you're seeing people trying to hold on to a plane to get out of a nation because they know what's coming. And that is a real shocking scene. You have basically the airport is the new green zone right now. And if you're inside, I guess you get out. And if you're not, you're not going to get out. And you got to figure out another way there. And this is what happened when the Khmer Rouge came into Cambodia. It's happened when in a gentle form, when China took over Hong Kong recently, but not like this, but it was a soft way. It happened in Saigon. It happened repeatedly throughout the world. When the Germans took over Poland, suddenly, you know, this is just the new reality. It's tragic. It's horrible. I think Joe Biden inherited this situation. It's interesting to have Donald Trump mouthing off about this, saying that the Taliban are smart and good fighters and they've been doing it for a thousand years. They haven't been around for a thousand years, number one. But why he's getting any oxygen again, don't pass presidents just basically shut their mouths no matter. Did we hear Obama go on about anything with Donald Trump? No, but would we expect anything less than him to shoot off his mouth about this before a deal that he basically negotiated? Is the plan flawed? Yes. Is the removal bad? Yes. Did anyone expect that the Afghan army would fall so quickly? I don't think so. As far as the 31st deadline, I would say in three more days they're probably going to shut down operations and if they haven't gotten them out by then, they're going to try to make over the mountains or whatever they're going to do to get out. Well, okay. So is August 31st a realistic date to get out that many Afghanis? I don't think if you're at the airport, it's going to happen. But there's another part that may be these people that have taken over. It might be that they're taking sort of a Fidel Castro-Mariella-Votelift thing where he says if you want to get out and you're against my regime, okay, go. And how many people sent to Florida in that short period of time? If this regime wants to really consolidate- Well, he cleaned out all the jails. That's what Castro did. That was part of it too. But if this regime really wants to consolidate this control absolutely, then they would get rid of everybody else. But I think probably what they'll want to do is send a message of terror and fear. And that's been their MO all along. So we can't really expect any positive stories, but just ones of horror as we watch this country just sort of devolve. Hopefully 20 years of having some other influence in there of education and cell phones and books and all of that will make some sort of a difference. But right now, it's a dark day in Afghanistan. And it's not going to get brighter any time soon. And that's no two bones about it. Right. Thanks, Winston, for your comments. Hey, Jay, I want to point out something I heard in Biden's speech yesterday. And he basically said that the United States is going to continue to support the Afghan people through diplomacy. And they're going to speak for basic rights for women and girls. And human rights will be the center of their policy. It seems to me that that's pretty hard to do if you're not in the country to enforce this type of philosophy. Was this a feel good moment for Joe Biden, or did he really mean it? And how's he going to enforce it? So it's an olive branch to those who are criticizing him about the moral issue. There's a slim possibility. And I don't want to be the optimist in the crowd, but there's a slim possibility 20 years have passed. And the Taliban may not be the same as it was. They're making noises differently than they made 20 years ago. They may be lying, but they are saying things that are more acceptable than the kinds of things they were saying 20 years ago. They're forming a government. They have spokesmen who actually talk to the press and, you know, may have press conferences and the like. They're saying things that are more acceptable. And they make the sound of somebody trying to rule the country, not just hit and run, not just killing people on the street corner. So the jury's out. As everyone says here, this is a dynamic situation. We should be watching it very carefully. There may be a glimmer of hope that this will be a country, maybe flawed, but there are a lot of flawed countries around the world. It's regrettable that we live in a world like that. As people who support Biden in what he has done say, why Afghanistan is an awful lot of places which have lost their human rights. It's an awful lot of places where women are being put down. An awful lot of places where there's violence. And the one point I want to make, if I just have a moment on this, this is instructive about what happens when you don't have the rule of law. When the rule of law gives away to the rule of guns and violence. And it could happen elsewhere. Maybe it is happening elsewhere. We have to go country by country. And you think what would happen, for example, if the insurrection on January 6th or maybe later was successful. We would not have the rule of law. We would not have the Constitution. We would have ruled by violence and by people who were not qualified to rule anybody. And yet with guns, they would rule. Would our lives be significantly different on the street corner? It's not clear. Maybe there would be great similarities in what would happen. All right. Last question. United States or central banks are holding about $1.2 trillion worth of Afghan government's money in banks outside of Afghanistan. Does that get released back to the Taliban? You're asking me? Not now. The U.S. froze it. And I think European countries are freezing it in the same way. And maybe they'll come at time if they demonstrate that they are responsible that these funds will be released. But not now. It's a jury is out on all things. And they're not going to see any money until they demonstrate, A, that they are the government. And, B, that they are a government who is creating a rule of law of some kind and allowing human rights of some kind and not just calling people away to kill them and disappear them. So they're going to have to demonstrate that. And possibly the glimmer of light that I just talked about a minute ago, maybe it's false. The likelihood is it is false and substantial part. But it is intended in part, in any event, to get that money back. That money is not soon in coming, but it's there. And it could come back if they behave themselves. All right. Thank you, Jay. Hey, Cynthia, we're running out of time. But I wanted to run this past you is, you know, here we have, well, I guess, you know, the jury's still out exactly how we exit Afghanistan. And to what degree do we support our allies in getting them out as well? But, you know, just a year earlier, we saw the mass exodus from Syria and leaving the Kurds exposed to the Turks. And, you know, so we have that we, of course, we had the history of, you know, South Vietnam. This is a pattern that's starting to emerge. And the question is, if you're an ally of the United States, how willing are you going to be willing to work closely with us? If you're, you know, in country, and you're being asked to work closely with the US troops, the US Army and military forces, are you going to be inclined to do that knowing our history of cutting and running? We don't actually have a history of cutting and running. No, we don't. But it's starting to look that way. Right. With Trump, we sure did, because he left the Kurds just tough luck through them to the Turks, you know, to the Turks. But for the most part, we take care of our people. What was 150,000, 130,000 you said got taken out of North Vietnam. That's the kind of stuff we do. Right. And so right now, if Biden does the right thing and gets 130,000 people out of there, or whatever he has to do to get as many people that want to come and need to come as possible, then I think yes, they'll trust us. Absolutely. Good. Thank you. Hey, Winston, how's the international community looking at this situation right now? I'd be a little bit, if I were Ukraine or Taiwan, I'd be a little bit concerned right now about America's backing. But it may be that Joe Biden is sort of reflecting this general pullback and into our sort of spheres of influence. And this may just be part of it. I don't know. But I think that NATO seems pretty short up, and that may be that's our sphere of influence. And maybe we'll pull back there and NATO will decide they don't belong in Afghanistan, but they do belong in Lithuania. We'll have to see how that pans out. But it seems like maybe our traditional commitments rather than trying to fight in essentially tribal warfare and picking the right side is where we will have to shore up our defenses at this point. But America is back. It's back in a different way. And this, as Fareed Zakaria said in a CNN opinion piece, there is no good way to lose a war. And in fact, I'm happy to see Jay is optimistic a little bit, because perhaps they are making the right noises. It will be in a deeply flawed country. But if they can at least start and now, and it may be seen like in Vietnam that in fact they were fighting a war of oppression against foreign invaders when it's tribal at the same time. Anybody that pretends to be an expert in Afghanistan probably needs to read more books on it, because it's just been a quite admire. And in any event, I think our hearts have to go out to the people that are there right now, just not knowing what tomorrow or even tonight brings. And there's a lot of good ways people can get involved, just Googling how to help folks in Afghanistan right now. And to what extent that's going to really help, we'll find out. In a week from now, things will be much clearer, I hope, and better. Okay, thank you. Hey, we're going to go around the table here for last comments and where this thing goes in the next week, coming weeks. Starting with you, Jay, your last comments, please. Whether there is a glimmer of hope or not, the fact is that the world in general everywhere is astounded and disappointed in the United States for letting this thing happen, letting it come so quickly and creep up and be so devastating and threatening on the people of Afghanistan. The prospect of a completely failed state, of a tribal state, of a primitive and violent state, it's out of Lord of the Flies. It's human beings at their worst is what it is. And this threat, this awful set of circumstances, is changing the world order. And if I send it around to you guys, but there was an article to this effect, it's not that just that Europe is disappointed or that China will have its own problems and will take advantage or the same with Russia. It's that everybody is concerned. Everybody is making moves either on the moral side to criticize us or on the opportunistic side. Bottom line is, this brings us down a notch. And I think that's permanent because the memories will last. And we have lost notches. We have lost the respect of the international, of the global community by virtue of this event, these set of events. And the world order does not include us so much as a leader in the global order anymore. And I think that is not short term. Okay. Thank you, Jay, for your comment. Cynthia, your last thoughts and comments about this. Okay. I have a couple of stories that are going to really tug at your heart. And for you Winston, you know how you said Americans go find somebody to help with? Okay, well, I got one for that. Yesterday, I did an interview with Heidi Kuhn, who's the CEO of Roots and Peace. She's had a NGO there for 20 years, removing landmines and replacing them with crops. She has raised up thousands and thousands of Afghan women to give them power. And there's a whole generation of Afghan women that have raised up never knowing the Taliban, right? So there's been such a change in things. But so I really ask everyone to go watch that show. There is a place to donate. If you can't donate money, please donate your time and share it with everyone you know, so we can make it go viral. She told me a story about how everyone has been caught, the people at her, you know, business and things. Come, come and we need your help. Come help us. And then one of her other workers called her and said, you cannot come here. I was just on my way to the office and I watched a Taliban soldier shoot 20 people randomly shoot into a crowd and just randomly kill people. And he told her, you cannot come, it's not safe. And then she went on to tell me the most heart-wrenching story of all. A different worker was on his way to the office and there was a woman by the side of the road crying, holding her baby, sobbing, crying. So he went over to ask, you know, what can I do to help you? And she said, my baby just died. I walked here with no food and my milk dried up and so my baby hasn't eaten for days and she just died. And if that story doesn't break your heart and tell you that every American needs to donate to any and every NGO that's over there trying to give aid to these people, we need to, as a nation, as a world, rise up and support the Afghan people that are just going to slaughter their way of life if nothing else will be slaughtered and maybe even their bodies too. So pray. If you are a praying person, pray. If you've got money, donate. If you don't have money, donate your time. Okay. Thank you very much, Cynthia. Weston, your last thoughts, please. Boy, you know, it's heart-wrenching to hear that. And we know that that scene has been repeated hundreds and thousands of times over the last few days in that nation. And so, you know, again, watch Cynthia's show so you can find out more about that. I know there's other organizations like The Points Guy. You can donate your miles. I don't know how far that will go and how they're going to be getting people out of there. But, you know, maybe this is also a chance for us to take the look within. How did we, how do we let this happen as a species, as a race, as a peoples? How did we let this happen nationally? Have some reflection here and have us also look at our own nation and find, again, how do we shore up our own things so that we can make sure that these sorts of things don't happen in the future, that we allocate our resources correctly. And as best as we can, going down from now, let's learn all we can from this. But right now, this is more of a time for just sadness than anything else. All right, Winston. Hey, can I just, Cynthia, yeah, very quickly. People need to be very careful about where they donate their money to, make sure that it is an actual official place. There's been a lot of corruption going on over there. A lot of people are donating stuff and it never gets to the people. Roots of peace specifically, 100% goes to Afghanistan. They won't even be taking out money for their operating costs. So, just add that one little thing. Thank you. Great points. Great points, Cynthia. So, we've run out of time. I'd like to thank Jay Fidel, Cynthia Leeson-Clair, and Winston Welch. Thank you for contributing to the conversation. Join us next week, Wednesday at 11 o'clock. What now, America? I'm Tim Apichel, your host. Aloha.