 Right okay the date what the hell is the date? This is September 4th September 4th. We're in the OBJ library and the subject today is Sherwood Martin Hello, Harry. Okay. That's up to you Tell us start out Sherwood by telling how you got involved in the Johnson White House to begin with and What's your duties were and then go on? Okay? Well, how I got involved In the White House I guess depends on who Answers that question There are about three or four strings to that bow, and I've never quite sure which one is the accurate one. I had been When I graduated from Yale Law School I had listened to the to the Dean there who said that the purpose of that great law school was not to just fund the The great law firms of Washington in New York City, but go home young men So I went back to where I had been born and raised which is Iowa Okay, all right Well, Harry you asked me how I got to To Washington and how I got to the White House and that depends on who is answering that question I've heard three or four different versions. I've never been quite sure Which one is true? But My own background is that when I graduated from the Yale Law School, I listened to the Dean there who advised The members of our very small class to that they didn't intend to just fund the law Large law firms of New York and Washington, but go home young men so I went back to where I've been born and raised which was Iowa and began the practice of law there and and Became quite active in Democratic politics had become state president of the young Democrats of Iowa and generally had I'd attended as a delegate the conventions of 1956 and 1960 and In 1960 and this is relevant to answering your question I served an Adelaide Stevenson staff and was very much deeply involved in the last gasp effort on behalf of the Stevenson people who were working in alliance with the Lyndon Johnson people to keep John Kennedy from being nominated on the first ballot under the theory Which I think was accurate that if he didn't win on the first ballot. He wouldn't be nominated and And so we were working very hard together and I was very deeply involved in that and The contacts I made from the Stevenson staff Resulted in Tom Finney who was Clark Clifford's law partner who was general counsel in 1964 to the Credentials committee which was considering the problem the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party Well, that's a string that I'll come back to At the same time back in Iowa had become I guess you would call it a protege a young man Who was being looked after very closely by our then governor Harold Hughes who was later senator from Iowa and Governor Hughes Was very much a father figure to me and I helped him in every possible way including I was his campaign manager back in 1964 and and that those days governor Hughes and Lyndon Johnson were close friends and the 1964 Democratic National Convention was coming up and As I understood it from Governor Hughes the president wanted the convention to go perfectly smoothly Because the president was greatly concerned if there was any great incident at the convention that disrupted it it would give an opening to Robert Kennedy Who the president believed was looking for an opening to displace President Johnson and Assumed the legitimacy of the mantle of the presidential Candidate see whether true or not. I don't know but in any event that was my understanding is conveyed to me by governor Hughes Well coming up from Mississippi at the time was a great problem the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was black and wanted to be seated at the convention and the president wanted that fight that Desire Somehow solved by a compromise that would be acceptable to Joe Rao who represented the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and Walter Ruther and the northern liberal wing of the Democratic Party and the southern Establishment of the Democratic Party. He didn't know the president didn't know according to Hughes how or what? Compromise could be reached but he wanted it done So as I understood it from Hughes The president wanted from Hughes the name of somebody that could go to the convention and help work out that compromise somebody who was I guess he was looking for a lawyer and Hughes had suggested my name and That was acceptable and I was instructed to go to the convention and work through Walter Jenkins to try to work out that compromise and the president had also posed the same question to To to Senator Humphrey is sort of the price for his being selected as vice president and Humphrey had suggested that then Attorney General of Minnesota Walter Mondale So Fritz and I went to the convention as two of the five people on the Subcommittee of the Credentials Committee charged with the idea of working out a compromise and Fritz representing Humphrey and I understood I was representing the president since I was dealing with Jenkins and any event without going into all of the details We did work out a compromise which surprised and pleased the president and the convention went smoothly and both Fritz Mondale and I got our rewards Fritz was greater than mine because he took Humphrey's place in the United States Senate Mine was to get a call from water from Marvin Watson to come to Washington and see the president and at which time I was Asked to come to Washington and help out the administration and I didn't want to come. I was very happy in Iowa pleased with my life there, but As anyone who knows Lyndon Johnson Contestify when he sits there and says your president needs you It's virtually impossible to say no, so I didn't say no and I came That's my version of the story Marvin Watson. However, that's a third version of the story and that is that Cliff Carter Who actually was the president's man on the Democratic National Committee and was an old old friend of the presidents Had seen me try a lawsuit in front of the state Senate of Iowa where I'd actually caused the Republican majority to turn tail and run and Carter This is Marvin's story was sufficiently impressed that he told Marvin in the president that you got to get this guy and That's how I got there. So that's One of those stories is true or maybe all of them as far as I know any event I came and in in the spring of 1965 and The rest your question I forget was what what did I do then? Well, I didn't know anything about Washington DC that's for sure or the federal government and I think one of the first Experiences I had which was both was kind of frightening to me was My friend Nick Cots who all of them only won a Pulitzer Prize Called me and said This is the summer in 1965 and said Do you know that senator Kennedy he was then senator from New York is about to give a speech Really laying it into the president on Vietnam and that is a real 180-degree Change in Kennedy's position and I thought and he's going to give that speech tomorrow morning And I thought you'd like to have a heads up on it because he's already released the advanced text of the speech So I thank Nick and Saw Marvin and told him that story and Marvin saw the president and the Came back to me and said the president wants you to go up to the Capitol Hill and Convince Kennedy not to give that speech And I said what about Marvin? I said I said he's already released an exact advanced text of it and If I go up and do that Won't that put our put us in here's hands He can say whatever he wants and then also add the White House pressured him into trying not to give that speech So I was told that that they had complete confidence that I could avoid that problems successfully and any man I trotted up to Capitol Hill and It was around six or seven o'clock in the evening and When the Kennedy's office and he saw me and I told him that we Got word of this speech and wondered if there's any way that We could I could convince him to moderate it and the hook I used actually was it his friend David Bell who was Then director of the agency for international development was going to be on the platform with him And it would be embarrassing to bail Not to speak of the reaction of the president and any of that surprisingly enough Kennedy was receptive. He called in his two speechwriters Peter Edelman and Adam Walensky and There began a negotiation that took a good power to the night Going through that speech line by line word by word In the middle of that negotiation Kennedy excused himself went back to his home in Virginia To some party and then came back and anyway at the end of the night. He had actually changed the speech to to take away this stuff that was so objectionable and I had only one final question of him and that was senator Since the advanced text is so different from the one we've just agreed on Exactly and somebody is bound to ask you about it exactly What are you going to say as to the reason why you're giving a changed speech and? He has answered to me was I'm going to lie mr. Markman. I'm going to say that the only speech that counts is the one I give and The next day I managed to be there when he gave the speech He gave it exactly as we'd agreed to and then afterwards I happened to be close enough to hear the press ask him that question and he gave exactly the answer. He told me he would give Which was my introduction into the affairs of state at the White House after that I continued on in my little office up on the second floor of the West Wing and President sometimes called me as utility infielder because He finally came to the conclusion that I could More or less handle things whether I was competent to or trained to or not and I'd be given Whatever job happened to be at hand looking at you Harry. I Remember my one and only and thankfully last Experiences a speechwriter for some reason that he got the idea that I could write and and we were flying somewhere or another on Air Force one and Whatever you guys had prepared for him for that speech. He decided on the airplane. He didn't like and So he Comes up. He says Markman. I hear you can write. He says here. I want you to change this speech I want this that and the other thing in it and you get go ahead and rewrite it right now and Just have it ready to me. We have it ready for me when we land so I take the speech and get on one of our the typewriter's on the airplane and You've probably had this experience But here I am trying to rewrite it and Lyndon Johnson is standing over my shoulder Watching me word for word as I try to prepare it Making comments and suggestions all the way Well needless to say when we landed it was a dedication of a dam or something Ah The speech wasn't ready. So he went off to the dedication. I'm still in the airplane typing array So he left a police escort for me in the speech and fortunately I arrived at the place of the speech with the With the draft in tow just in time to hand it to him before he gave it and He hadn't had a chance to read it except when he gave it and Believe me after that. I appreciated what guys like you were doing and never wanted any part of it again But I did Many many things I think the thing that That I'm proudest of that maybe I had Where I really feel that I had some impact on things was One Christmas time when he asked me into the office and said I Decided I want to have somebody like you go into the black ghettos of the United States and find out What's happening? I want to know what this black power business means. I want to know what? programs are working and what programs aren't working and I want to know who the good people are who aren't and so I decided that Somebody like you ought to do that And I said well, mr. President, you know, how am I supposed to do this? I mean I'm white I'm from Iowa. I don't know anything about Intercity problems and that's exactly why I Ask you to do this because I want to have a completely Unsullied view of what happened and I said well, how am I supposed to do these things? Well, you're a bright boy I think you can figure that out. So I Went back and once again, I called on my dear friend Nick Katz it was in with the Washington Post I think and Confide with him off the record because the president but also added he didn't want me to get in trouble or get my name in the newspapers or anything like that and I Decided the only way I could do this is to find somebody who was black Who could keep his mouth shut and who could keep me out of trouble and show me around so? We found Nick had this friend of his who had been born raised in the Chicago ghetto, which was the place we decided to go to and Named Ken Valles. So Kenny Introduced me to Kenny and I like Kenny and so Kenny and I went into First the south side of Chicago and then the west side of Chicago was the middle of winter. It was cold We lived in rooming houses We walked the streets at night we Stayed there for ten days to two weeks and I came back full of so many reactions and feelings and thoughts I couldn't contain myself and So I wrote my report to the president, which I knew he wanted one page reports But I couldn't stop and it ended up I forget what the length of it But it's something like 10 or 15 single space pages law, but I set it in Figuring he's just going to just rip it rip me up for it. And as it turned out he liked it and It also turned out that I found out At least one of the reasons he wanted the reports because I was several times I would be sitting in a meeting with the president and members of Congress and talking about one or another of his Poverty program bills and in the middle of all that he'd reach into his pocket and he'd pull out my memo and He'd say I have this young man. He's no different than any of you men. He's he's no screaming liberal He's from Iowa and let me just read you a part of what he found and then he'd read it and just use it as a tool of persuasion Which of course made me very proud and happy and that trip to the ghetto led as it often did with Lyndon Johnson to Many other trips of the ghettos by me Six or seven or eight, I don't remember how many each followed by a report and He liked it and I thought I was doing something of use I guess the other part of it that I thought was extremely useful was when I went into the Philadelphia ghetto Again it was a terribly cold and sleazy night Sunday and The man who was escorting me the black man who was escorting me Introduced me to took me to church to see this Reverend Leon Sullivan who nobody had heard of at the time and He was the church. I thought would be half empty because of the awful weather was just jammed Sullivan was extraordinarily effective a very charismatic man and That wasn't the reason why I was being introduced to him It was because Sullivan had this job training program called OIC as I remember and the next day I spent the whole day with Reverend Sullivan. He showed me his job training program Which was very very impressive and I came back to the White House and and actually strongly urged the president if he could all if he could have at all do it to go to Philadelphia into that ghetto and meet Sullivan and and and See what his programs What his program is because I thought that was the way we ought to be going and The president bought that idea and the Secret Service did not want him to go into the ghetto I remember that he had to overrule the Secret Service and anyway He went in Matt Sullivan was impressed with Sullivan then we got back to Washington He asked Sullivan to to To come to the White House and he spent considerable time with Sullivan at the end of what she called me in and Cliff Alexander and He told the two of us to go Go see Sergeant Shriver right now and tell Shriver to get this man some more money And it was sometimes I remember it was like a Saturday late Saturday afternoon a Shriver So we went out to the Shriver's house and Shriver's having this big lawn party We called him out of the party and gave him the direction to get Sullivan money. Well as you as the world now knows Sullivan became a very very famous fellow and Developed the Sullivan principles which were very very important and in our relationship with South Africa went on the board of Chrysler corporation and I was very very proud of that piece of work for the president You mentioned before you wanted me to talk about two other Incidents one was what? Glassboro Yeah, there was a The summit conference at Glassboro, New Jersey in June 1967 there was a that was just a couple weeks after the six-day war between Israel and the Arab nations and a premier Kosigan of the Soviet Union was coming to speak to the United Nations and President Johnson wanted to take that opportunity to invite Kosigan down to Washington because you very much wanted the Russians to Intervene with North Vietnam to bring him to the peace table and So we extended the invitation to Kosigan because Seagans response was That he's not visiting the United States. He's been visiting the United Nations And so it would not be proper for him Not be appropriate for him to come to Washington rather Johnson should come to the UN Well Johnson wasn't buying that either And so it remained deadlocked like that for The better part of a day when somebody came up at the State Department came up with an idea of Laying a string between the White House and the United Nations Headquarter and marking the point that's precisely halfway between it and that happened to be Glassboro New Jersey, which is a home of glass what was then known as Glassboro State Teachers College and That proposal was accepted by the Russians and this was at five o'clock in the afternoon and and they agreed to meet at Right at two o'clock. I think the next afternoon and I was then told to assemble a team get on an airplane and go Find a place for them to meet make the place ready and have it all set by two o'clock Yeah, and the next afternoon so I had a plane load of Secret Service State Department's communications press you name it dick moose, I remember from the National Security Council and We went up there and Knocked on the door of the president of Glassboro State Teachers College Dr. Robinson and By this time he knew we were coming because it leaked out of the press But we didn't we told him I had a bunch of direction for the president He wanted to have a large meeting room a place for lunch place where they could meet privately and We had to find a we had to find the locale so with the Dr. Robinson we walked all over that campus and He kept suggesting the student union the auditorium this or that Classroom and none of it. I knew right away the only place that we could do it was the Robinson's house and Finally I did make that suggestion the Robinson's Reluctantly accepted it and we spent the whole night Refurbishing that house there wasn't there was a hot june day the house wasn't even air-conditioned it didn't have the power To be air-conditioned So we had to have the power company put in transformers. We had to buy air-conditioning units We had to get new furniture. We had to get draperies. We had to get kitchen equipment You can't believe what we went through but we got it ready and at at Just before Kosigin arrived the president arrived in his helicopter and Got off of it and said to be okay now What am I supposed to do now and I started rattling it off and he said to me I don't like it and I said Stammered really but but mr. President Kosigin's gonna be here in five minutes and at that point I I Always thought it was mrs. Johnson, but it might have been Marvin somebody stepped between us and said We have to do it Markman's way And he shrugged and we did and it went off fine and the summit conference lasted for that day and then reconvene two days later and We have down in the first floor of this library the Table and two chairs that they sat in and Which is in a story in itself, which I would briefly relate is the president wanted those for the library and Directed me to go talk to mrs. Robinson to buy them And mrs. Robinson said to me well mr. Markman You can have the chair and one of the you can have the table in one of the chairs But the other chair is a family heirloom and I don't want to give that away and I don't want to sell it and I said, but well, I'll make sure that somebody duplicates it Precisely and she said well mr. Markman in that case you take the duplicate and put it the library And I said that isn't go to work mrs. Robinson. We want the real thing and any event she wouldn't give way so I finally in desperation called the governor of New Jersey Who's asked him if he would help help help and he did and she agreed and now you have the table in the Two chairs and I think the other story you wanted me to Incident you wanted to mention is Williamsburg Which happened later that same year. I think it was in October of 1967 The president was under great great pressure at that time and It's the and wanted to get away for a weekend and a relaxation where he could play golf with Chuck Robb who was about to be married to Linda. I think was married the first Week in December and generally wanted to relax and He wanted to do all that. Oh, they were going to have the gridiron dinner I think on Saturday night in Williamsburg and he was going to stay there and then he wanted to go to church on Sunday and so he sent me down there to Find him a place to stay which was easy to do the Rockefeller family actually owned that Williamsburg Or controlled it and I called governor went to Rockefeller of Arkansas and and I asked him Arrange for a place for the president to stay and the golfing and all of that and then mentioned church And he said well, there's only one church that he should go to there's one at colonial Williams were called Bruton Parish It's an Episcopal church and That's where he should attend and Being a foresightful young man, I said but what about the minister? Is he going to be okay? And the governor said no problem about him He's a great supporter of the president. No problem at all about him Nonetheless I still being Innately somewhat suspicious. I decided that maybe I ought to go chat with the minister myself and I didn't want to do it myself Still mindful what at what risk I'd run with senator Kennedy. I decided I would should have a witness there and Talked to one of the Secret Service agents. I think it was Clint Hill and That there would be a they agree there might be a general The security justification for this Secret Service to accompany me to talk to the minister Because the president be trapped in his church and all of that so the two of us went to talk to the minister and I told him that the president is considering coming to your church on Sunday and and We're just curious of what your sermon is going to be and He said no problem with that. I have never copy of it right here. You can look at it You can see it's something that the president would very much enjoy hearing and so we sat there and read it it was innocuous a Good piscopal sermon if I ever read one in my life and and We thanked him and went back and I report back to the president that all is in order and all is safe Well, the president came down and the And then the point of time he went into the church with mrs. Johnson and I stayed outside and About two minutes before the Church Service was over the doors burst open all the press that was part of the press pool Came running out yelling. You never believe what just happened in there and I knew instantly what had just happened in there and I Went walked to the very end of this long motorcade To try to hide myself and the president walked out of the church. I Could see his face and it was angry and his eyes were just going all over the place and he spotted me and he went like this and Made me get in the car with him Went back to the house and he started berating me like you have never heard about house Incompetent how stupid How careless I was how I've been conned by this man I tried to explain that I've done everything I could possibly have done looked at the been assured. Oh, by the way the When the right after president walked out the minister walked out and he had prepared copies of the sermon He had actually given the one which had oh by the way He had spent the sermon just berating the president on Vietnam. That's what had happened in there And he had copies of it that he was handing out to the press That's what a false Man he had been in any event the president wouldn't hear of any of my explanations nor would he stop Stop berating me for it. He went off to play golf. He directed me to stay there Till he got back when he got back. He continued on Then I had intended to drive back to Washington with a secret service He wouldn't let me do that. He made me fly back with him on the helicopter where he continued Above the noise of the helicopter when we got to the White House. I thought I could go home. He wouldn't permit that Brought me up to the second floor of the mansion and continued it I Tried to quit resign. He wouldn't hear of that and The next morning I Told Marvin bag my what am I to do? He won't let me quit and he won't stop He says why don't you write a memo we'll put it in his night reading So I wrote a memo we put it in his night reading the president obviously read it because he initialed it but And he never said another word And this is typical of Lyndon Johnson and he never apologized to me Of course as far as I know Lyndon Johnson didn't apologize But it wasn't maybe a week or ten days later I was invited to a White House a Party for a foreign head of state and as you remember you go through the receiving line When they got to me He put his arm around me the president did to the whoever the head of state was and said I just want you to meet one of the most Brightest most competent most trustworthy Assistants any president could ever add at that moment. I could I knew I'd been forgiven which reminds me of the story I know that Wilkins tells the story about the same kind of thing where he asked Wilkins after he used the n-word in Wilkins Presence you've heard that story. I'm sure that he asked Wilkins back in the Oval Office. He didn't apologize to him but he Talked about everything under the Sun, but enough so that Wilkins knew that the president was sorry Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it What was your overall impression of President Johnson I Thought he was an extraordinary man a prodigious memory the likes of which I have never ever seen His ability to communicate was extraordinary. He had a sense of How to persuade people as anyone who dealt with him knows he had no compunction against invading your personal space a famous picture of him which is in your book Leaning over justice for this is a great example. He holds you by the elbow or by the arm Look down until you get his face right next to you. He could communicate brilliantly In person and not only just person to person Or in a small group, but even in larger groups. There was just something about the electronic media that interfered with his ability to communicate and which As all of us know Endless efforts were made to try to solve that problem all of which Failed he could not communicate through television. He just couldn't do it and yet In person the man was fearless He preferred communicating that way but time being a very precious commodity to him he So often used the telephone people say he loved the telephone and he did he was very good on the telephone and he did use it Immensely but he much much preferred Communicating in person to a person the advantage the telephone gave him was that he could cut somebody off. I Mean when it was over it was over Whereas if you're face-to-face with somebody it could sometimes drag on but I thought the man was a great man his Beliefs in his programs were totally kids His belief in his civil rights Program goes back to his very roots all of his speeches Prove that It's been said and I think accurately so that in the field of civil rights he accomplished more than any president of the United States since Abraham Lincoln and I think his belief in the poverty program and his dream for Have every American be able to have housing and Education at a job was that came from his very soul He believed that as he once said in one of his I think it was his next to last speech Did he gave in his lifetime not the famous one here at the library? that If his time on earth is to be judged He would like it to be judged by the programs he saw and acted your own personal